Mind Games: "The Drummer with the Knives"

Podcast: Mind Games
Hosts: Zoe Lescaze & Alice Hines
Episode Date: January 27, 2026

Overview

In this episode, journalists and friends Zoe Lescaze and Alice Hines dig into the bizarre and controversial origins of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP). They reconstruct the wild, cult-adjacent days of NLP’s early years in 1970s California—where mind-bending techniques, charismatic leaders, and experimental therapy intersected with counterculture communes, and even a gruesome murder that did little to slow NLP’s spread. Central to the story is Richard Bandler, NLP’s tough-guy co-founder, whose personal legend is equal parts myth, menace, and ingenuity. The episode questions: Where did NLP really come from? Who was Richard Bandler before the world knew his name? Can these mind games actually work, or are they just manipulation at best—and abuse at worst?

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Days: Miracles in Santa Cruz ([02:46]–[05:44])

• Setting: Santa Cruz mountains, early 1970s—hotbed for New Age experimentation.
• Judy Delozer, a religious studies major, recounts seeing her friends “magically, linguistically fix a man’s legs” via talking, aka the earliest NLP workshops.
  • “It was kind of like a miracle. And I think that's probably what made me laugh, was going, that's pretty amazing. You know, that's crazy.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([04:14])
• Hosts note the skepticism but also the atmosphere of openness and possibility in the era.
  • “New realities were business as usual in Santa Cruz.” – Zoe Lescaze ([05:53])

The Enigma of Richard Bandler ([07:04]–[15:04])

• Bandler’s Persona: Variously described as a healer, egomaniac, genius, predator.
  • “He was very funny and he could be very empathetic. And he could also be meaner than a snake.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([12:31])
• Mythmaking: Claims of computer science brilliance, a black belt, owning a topless bar at 16, tough-guy stories about being stabbed and only able to eat meat, and even deliberately electrocuting his abusive stepfather as a boy.
  • “What the fuck? Yeah, that sounds very distracting.” – Zoe Lescaze, on Bandler claiming to hear radar ([08:08])
• Bandler’s vulnerability is acknowledged—a difficult upbringing, poverty, family violence.
• Despite (or because of) these contradictions, everyone agrees: “Bandler was brilliant and Bandler was unpredictable.” – Zoe Lescaze ([12:22])

The Spitzer Family & The “Drummer with the Knives” ([13:17]–[18:17])

• The Spitzers: Radical, bohemian family who “sort of adopted” the young Bandler; Bob Spitzer, the father, was a psychiatrist and an LSD experimenter.
  • Bob brought Bandler into their world—first as his son Daniel’s drum teacher, notably “carrying a whole bunch of knives.” ([14:03])
  • “He had a buck knife, a bowie knife, a switchblade… It seemed more like a pose.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([14:08])
• Communal Life: Commune life at the Spitzer property included artists, musicians, guerrilla midwives, nudist colonists, home-birthing pioneers, and bright strays like Bandler himself.
  • “This place was basically a startup incubator for every out there New Age trend of the 60s. All paid for by this guy, Bob Spitzer.” – Alice Hines ([17:27])
• Transformation: Bandler goes from “tortured kid and alleged cowboy” to afterschool drum teacher/knife enthusiast to therapist protege: “They basically gave him a new identity, which was becoming a therapist.” – Alice Hines ([18:15])

NLP’s Ideological Ingredients ([21:41]–[25:23])

• Influences: Bob Spitzer introduced Bandler to alt-psych luminaries in the “Human Potential Movement”—specifically Gestalt therapist Fritz Perls and family therapist Virginia Satir.
  • Bandler obsessively imitated their mannerisms, techniques, and sometimes even their accents.
  • “Bandler became obsessed with Pearls and techniques like this one. He started imitating Pearls German accent and mannerisms.” – Zoe Lescaze ([23:42])
• Central Ideas Adopted:
  • Healing “fragmented selves” (Gestalt)
  • Transforming inherited trauma (Satir)
  • The notion that “abuse doesn’t define you”
• Zoe’s conclusion: These ideas “helped form NLP.”

Radical Experimentation at UC Santa Cruz ([25:52]–[37:19])

• Kresge College: No grades, barefoot teachers, “Touchy-feely school”—perfect storm for hands-on experiments.
• Collaboration with John Grinder:
  • Grinder brings linguistic expertise and a checkered past (Special Forces, rumored CIA connections, later Communist activism).
  • They bond over their mutual distaste for aimless, endless therapy—their goal: quick, powerful “deep change.”
• Workshop Dynamics:
  • “They were doing their research with us.” – Jody Bruce ([30:51])
  • Therapy groups are marked by emotional breakthroughs, but also pushy, invasive questioning and peer pressure—sometimes feeling “cult-y.”
  • “There was that part of it that maybe that’s where the word culty comes in, is that for some people, for this to work, it needed to be a way of life.” – Jody Bruce ([32:23])
  • Early catchphrase: “What stops you from doing that?”
• Therapeutic Techniques:
  • Family reconstruction (role-play your family issues)
  • Reframing emotional states

Growing Cult Status and Ethical Dilemmas ([35:05]–[38:52])

• The clique surrounding NLP becomes insular, self-referential ("We became unattractive people to be friends with" – Dawn McCormack, [35:21])
• The practitioners exude an infectious “we can change the world” confidence.
  • “You could go in and clear out the psychiatric ward of a hospital.” – Zoe Lescaze ([36:07])
• Bandler and Grinder test methods on vulnerable patients at Napa State Hospital, raising serious ethical alarms.
• For some, NLP feels more manipulative than therapeutic:
  • “It was a game for them to see how they could manipulate and control people, and they could share that laugh with each other.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([37:24])
• Boundaries between therapist and patient break down; group members, including the hosts’ interviewees, admit to romantic entanglements—blurring lines of consent and professional practice.

Notorious Christmas “Therapy” Ordeal ([38:39]–[43:23])

• Memorable Moment: Devra’s account of a traumatic “therapy gift” at a holiday party:
  • Tripping on mushrooms, she was blindfolded, tied to a cross, while group members doused logs with lighter fluid below her.
  • Given a knife by a stranger to supposedly “cut herself out of victimhood.”
  • “I was angry, just incredibly angry, that I’d been put in that position by people I had trusted, that maybe I shouldn’t have trusted…Ethically, it didn’t seem right.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([41:56])
• She never returned to the group. Other witnesses corroborate the event; Bandler and Grinder do not respond to requests for comment.

The Rise of NLP—and Its Dark Side ([43:57]–[44:30])

• Within years, NLP spreads to the business world—marketed as a “persuasion technology” for reading and manipulating others.
  • “How do you recognize how people organize their thoughts and then work with their language in a way to modify their thoughts?” – Zoe Lescaze ([44:08])
• The hosts tease the next episode’s exploration of the corporate, more sinister applications of NLP.
  • “That’s sin.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([44:26])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It was kind of like a miracle. And I think that's probably what made me laugh, was going, that's pretty amazing. You know, that's crazy.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([04:14])
• “He was very funny and he could be very empathetic. And he could also be meaner than a snake.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([12:31])
• “They basically gave him a new identity, which was becoming a therapist.” – Alice Hines ([18:15])
• “Bandler became obsessed with Pearls and techniques like this one. He started imitating Pearls German accent and mannerisms.” – Zoe Lescaze ([23:42])
• “There was that part of it that maybe that’s where the word culty comes in, is that for some people, for this to work, it needed to be a way of life.” – Jody Bruce ([32:23])
• “It was a game for them to see how they could manipulate and control people, and they could share that laugh with each other.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([37:24])
• “I was angry, just incredibly angry, that I’d been put in that position by people I had trusted, that maybe I shouldn’t have trusted…Ethically, it didn’t seem right.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([41:56])
• “How do you recognize how people organize their thoughts and then work with their language in a way to modify their thoughts?” – Zoe Lescaze ([44:08])
• “That’s sin.” – Deborah Cantor Morton ([44:26])

Key Segment Timestamps

• [02:46] – Introduction to early NLP experiments in Santa Cruz
• [07:04] – Building the legend of Richard Bandler
• [13:17] – The Spitzer family “adopts” Bandler; knife stories
• [16:14] – Commune life and New Age incubator in Santa Cruz mountains
• [21:41] – Bandler absorbs Gestalt and family therapy influences
• [25:52] – Kresge College: radical education, therapy experimentation
• [29:15] – Partnership with John Grinder, linguistics meets mind-hacking
• [32:03] – “Cult-y” atmosphere and boundaries blurring in NLP groups
• [36:21] – NLP's bold expansion in psychiatric hospitals
• [37:24] – Confessions of manipulation and ethical overreach
• [38:39] – The notorious Christmas “cross” ordeal; group breaks up
• [43:57] – NLP hits the business world, shift toward persuasion and control

Tone

The episode is both investigative and irreverent, blending journalistic skepticism with curiosity about mind control, healing, and power. Zoe and Alice balance incredulity, empathy for those involved, and vivid, candid storytelling to unravel the mess and magic of NLP’s lawless origins.

Conclusion

This episode traces NLP from miracle cures and communal living to dangerous games and eventual mass-market “mind control.” Central to the story is the blurred line between healing and manipulation—a legacy that haunts NLP to this day. The hosts leave listeners with a preview of more sinister ethical questions as NLP infiltrates the world of business and persuasion in the next episode.