The Guru’s Guru

Summary

Mind Games, Ep. 1: "The Guru’s Guru" (Jan 20, 2026)

Host: Kaleidoscope | Journalists: Zoë Lescaze & Alice Hines

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Episode Overview

This episode launches the "Mind Games" series by diving deep into Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP): a mysterious blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology that promised mind control, self-mastery, and behavior change. The hosts investigate its controversial origins, its powerful (and sometimes sinister) influence on figures from Tony Robbins to cults, and test its techniques themselves. They grapple with the question: is mind control real—and is NLP a harmless life hack, or a dangerously manipulative tool?

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nancy Salzman: From Fearful Nurse to NLP Guru

• Introduction to Nancy Salzman ([02:52]–[04:14]):

  • Nancy was once a nurse plagued by a phobia of public speaking. An NLP "phobia fix" erased this lifelong fear “in a few short minutes,” launching her into a career as a motivational speaker and self-help coach.
  • Quote: “She did an NLP phobia fix on me and took away my fear of public speaking. …But she fixed that problem using an NLP technique. And it never was a problem again.” – Nancy Salzman ([03:55])

• NLP’s Double-Edged Sword ([04:14]–[05:09]):

  • Nancy co-founded NXIVM, a group later exposed as a sex cult. NLP was at its core; it made her career, but a twisted version contributed to her downfall.

2. What the Hell Is NLP?

• Definition, Spread, and Controversy ([06:30]–[11:08]):
  • NLP is described as everywhere: in self-help, sales, military programs, even cults.
  • Alice recounts how cults like Twin Flames claim to use NLP for deep trauma work: “Your practitioner will expertly access your trauma like a world class computer programmer rooting out a bug in the system.” ([08:08])
  • Even skeptics admit NLP’s presence in everyday self-help routines: “If you’ve done any [manifesting, vision boards], you’ve done NLP.” – Alice Hines ([08:30])
  • NLP's appeal: It promises a "user manual for your brain," letting you “delete bad habits, banish crippling phobias, and install new patterns like software.” – Zoë Lescaze ([10:17])
  • There’s debate on whether NLP is pseudo-scientific or legitimately helpful, especially given its overlap with “real” hypnotic techniques ([10:52]–[11:28]).

3. Personal Experiment: Hypnosis and NLP in Practice

• Alice Tries NLP with Nancy Salzman ([11:36]–[16:41]):

  • Alice, pregnant and nervous about childbirth, receives a hypnobirthing tape from Nancy using NLP language. She describes feeling “weirdly relaxed,” likening it to meditation app content.
  • Key moment: “Listening to it now, it makes me feel relaxed. … It gave me confidence as I listened.” – Alice Hines ([17:07])

• Skeptical Reflections ([15:21], [16:41]):

  • Zoë questions Nancy’s strategy—suggesting the NLP approach works by subtly redefining a person’s fears so they appear more fixable (and thus more susceptible to NLP techniques).

4. NLP as Salvation and Manipulation

• Nancy’s Testimony ([19:36]–[21:44]):

  • Even after her legal downfall and two years in prison, Nancy claims NLP techniques saved her sanity. She credits “state control” (deliberate emotional self-regulation via NLP) as her secret to enduring hardship:
    • “About a month in, I said… You have all of these tools. Use them.” – Nancy Salzman ([20:39])
  • The hosts weigh whether Nancy is credible or self-serving, but note she's used these techniques herself in crisis, not only on others.

• Potential for Abuse ([25:00]–[26:23]):

  • The conversation pivots to the dangers of NLP, where those teaching emotional mastery could also deploy such tools to manipulate or control.

5. NLP's Contradictory Founder: Richard Bandler

• Bandler’s Reputation, Method, and Violence ([28:44]–[34:42]):
  • Bandler is portrayed as a genius and a mess—accused (then acquitted) of murder, chronic substance abuser, yet developer of techniques hailed as transformative.
  • Notable Bandler quotes:
    • “Once you give people the resources, then you also got to tell them it doesn’t happen to them… You have to go out and kick the shit out of your own problem first.” ([29:48])
    • “I won’t give them the satisfaction of knowing [I did it to them] because I still want them… actively involved in running their own brain.” ([30:50])
  • Nancy describes Bandler as both “impressive in every way, positive and negative” but also “horrified” by his behavior ([31:54]–[32:49]).

Memorable Anecdote: The 10-Martini Drive

• Nancy Relates a Striking Example of NLP in Action ([33:38]–[34:42]):
  • “I had just gotten a brand new car and he asked me if we could go in my car. And I said yes. And he convinced me to let him drive. I don’t know how he did that.” – Nancy Salzman
  • Nancy realizes she was “anchored” (an NLP hypnotic trigger) to Bandler’s voice, making her unusually compliant.

6. The “Anchoring” Technique and Its Dangers

• Explanation and Demonstration ([35:00]–[37:01]):

  • “Anchoring” is a central NLP technique—triggering emotional responses by associating them with a stimulus (tone of voice, touch, etc.). Bandler’s seminars are filled with vocal shifts and hypnotic commands.

• Nancy’s Acknowledgement ([37:34]):

  • “He anchored you to his voice. … When he would use that voice again, you would go back into that state.” – Nancy Salzman

• Metaphor on Power and Responsibility ([38:43]):

  • Nancy compares NLP to a knife:
    • “A knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon.” ([38:43])
    • She acknowledges it can be used to “anchor in fear states” for harm.

Bandler’s Sledgehammer Approach & Threat Tactics

• Fear as Therapy ([39:31]–[44:03]):
  • Bandler often used threat and aggression to force change—including stories of violent role-play or even holding a gun (or “gun-shaped lighter”) to a patient’s head.
  • Example: “He would have the ultimate compassion to hold a gun to the side of a student’s head to provide the motivating factor that would allow them to make a change.” – Don McCormack ([42:32]–[42:39])

7. Widespread Influence and Questions of Legitimacy

• NLP in Mainstream Culture ([44:32]–[46:05]):

  • Despite its dark, cultish, and sometimes ridiculous narratives, NLP’s techniques have crept into wellness apps, therapy practices, and top-tier coaching all over the world.
  • Bandler insists, “It’s everywhere. I’m translated into dozens of languages.” ([45:50])

• Future Investigations ([46:05]–end):

  • The hosts preview their exploration of NLP among sales gurus, pick-up artists, and self-help stars—including Tony Robbins. They promise to test techniques on themselves and “even on you, the listener”—questioning whether any of it is science, scam, or something in between.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “All communication is some form of manipulation.” – Nancy Salzman ([10:42])
• “If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Some people get scared when I say the word. Control people's behaviors. It's already happening.” – Tony Robbins ([10:08])
• “He somehow persuades people to stand by him as he does extremely reckless, scary, dangerous things. …She thinks it’s NLP.” – Alice Hines ([34:43]–[34:58])
• “Fear anchors. This is sounding not so neutral. When people are afraid, they're more compliant.” – Zoë Lescaze ([39:31])
• “Therapy tries to get you to relive trauma. I try to get people to stop thinking about it so much. My techniques focus on getting people to take control of their mind.” – Richard Bandler ([45:27])
• [Bandler responds to criticism:] “This is what we refer to as a hit job. And I find this very fucking offensive.” ([47:31])

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Key Timestamps

• Nancy Salzman’s phobia & NLP “fix”: [02:52]–[04:14]
• Definition, skeptical commentary, and cultural omnipresence of NLP: [06:30]–[11:08]
• Alice’s personal hypnosis/NLP experiment: [11:36]–[17:28]
• NLP as tool for survival (Nancy in prison): [19:36]–[21:44]
• Bandler’s methods, controversies, and the murder trial: [28:44]–[44:03]
• Introduction to anchoring, manipulation, and ethical risks: [35:00]–[39:31]
• Bandler’s “threat therapy” and professional legacy: [39:31]–[46:05]
• Preview of deep-dive into NLP in popular culture and scandals: [46:05]–[end]

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Conclusion: Is Mind Control Real?

The episode sets up NLP as a tool with immense potential—for healing, self-improvement, or deeply problematic manipulation. Its roots are part 1970s self-help explosion, part California counterculture, and part true crime. The hosts promise to pursue truth amid the hype, contradictions, and unsolved mysteries in episodes to come.

Transcript

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[Nancy Salzman]

I completely dissociated from my body. I had so much panic and I was so afraid that when I opened my mouth and said the five words that I said when I was in front of the room, I thought it was someone else talking. And I said, I'm never doing this again.

[Alice Hines]

In the late 1980s, Nancy had a phobia of public speaking. And it was getting in the way of her job. She was a nurse who specialized in working with chronic pain patients.

[Nancy Salzman]

There's something about being able to help somebody that just makes me so. It's probably the biggest motivator of my entire life.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy wanted to share her skills with more people and to grow her business. But there was one big problem. She was terrified of public speaking. Get her in front of a room of people and Nancy would totally freeze. Then she met someone, a woman who said she could cure Nancy's lifelong fear in a few short minutes using something called neuro Linguistic programming or or nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

She did an NLP phobia fix on me and took away my fear of public speaking. And look at me now. I'm a big ham and I love public speaking. And I would do anything to do public speaking. But she fixed. She fixed that problem using an NLP technique. And it never was a problem again.

[Alice Hines]

Quickly, NLP became Nancy's whole life. Soon she was working as a consultant for Fortune 500 companies. As a coach. She helped thousands of people conquer their own fears. This was way more people than she had ever dreamed of helping as a nurse. And it was all thanks to nlp. NLP is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Nancy used it to found a self help company for ambitious professionals. The Dalai Lama even checked out one of their events. The company was called nxivm.

[Nancy Salzman]

Nxivm is a methodology that allows people to optimize their behavior. Brainwashing, sex abuse, and even branding.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy Saltzman, the co founder of the

[Nancy Salzman]

Capital Region based sex cult Nexiv, has been released from prison.

[Alice Hines]

NLP made Nancy's career, but then a version of it destroyed her and destroyed the lives of others. But what even is nlp?

[Nancy Salzman]

Take a deep breath in.

[Richard Bandler]

And breathe out. Your conscious mind is going to go totally away so that I can speak Privately with your unconscious mind

[Alice Hines]

from Kaleidoscope and I Heart podcasts. This is episode one of Mind Games. I'm Alice Hines.

[Zoe Lascauze]

I'm Zoe Lascauze.

[Richard Bandler]

You don't know how you did it, do you? You're going to a little time distortion state and you're out of it.

[Alice Hines]

We're reporters.

[Zoe Lascauze]

We're also friends.

[Alice Hines]

We're into some pretty weird shit.

[Zoe Lascauze]

True story. We met at a shamanic sound meditation.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, that was a few years ago, and there were some changes that occurred, Alice.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Understatement of the century. You astrally traveled, as I recall.

[Alice Hines]

I mean, yeah, you, like, basically do like a long meditation at this thing and I realized some shit about my life. Number one, Zoe was my new best friend. And number two, I actually broke up with someone who I've been dating for five years after this event.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Whoopsie daisies.

[Alice Hines]

It was for the best.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Yeah, everything worked out just fine, especially the friendship. Here we are. But yeah, I think it was that weekend, sometime before all the gongs and rainsticks and chimes got going, that we realized we have a ton in common.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, we do. We're both reporters and kind of professional skeptics. Zoe being a science journalist and me being a journalist who has exposed lots of wellness scams and cults. We sort of have to smell the bullshit, but at the same time, keep an open mind.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And we've also, between the two of us, logged something like 5 million hours on the couches of our respective therapists. And I think that's partly why we're interested in alternative therapies. Like, what if you didn't have to spend hours and hours and hours of your life and hundreds of dollars on mainstream psychiatry?

[Alice Hines]

I hope my therapist isn't listening to this.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Yeah, sorry, Annie.

[Alice Hines]

They probably are.

[Zoe Lascauze]

So in this series, we're gonna go spelunking into the murky depths of neuro linguistic programming, or nlp, and we're gonna try to find out if it deserves its sort of shady reputation.

[Alice Hines]

So I first heard about NLP because an alleged cult that I was investigating said they used it. So this wasn't nxivm. It was a different group called Twin Flames.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And what did they use NLP for?

[Alice Hines]

Okay, here's a quote from some of the documentation around this group that they put out. Your practitioner will expertly access your trauma like a world class computer programmer rooting out a bug in the system.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Um, not scary at all. No, that sounds totally normal.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah. So that's how they used nlp, but we were Curious whether these techniques could be used in other contexts. And when we started looking into it, we realized NLP is literally everywhere.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And we do mean everywhere. You've probably used an NLP technique without knowing it, or someone's used one on you.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, it's the basis of a ton of self help movements, any type of manifesting, visualizations, vision boards. If you've done any of that, you've done nlp.

[Zoe Lascauze]

It has a ton of bold faced name followers. There are Olympic divers who have used NLP to perfect their form. The Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort used it for closing deals. Fortune 500 companies like Apple, IBM, Coca Cola have spent tons of money on NLP sales trainings over the past 50 years.

[Alice Hines]

And so did army intelligence. They sought out NLP to improve soldier marksmanship and spycraft. They called it a technology for enhancing human performance.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And NLP spawned the self help behemoth that is Tony Robbins.

[Tony Robbins]

Anybody can be in a good state when things are going your way. But if you can stay in a beautiful state when things don't go your

[Alice Hines]

way,

[Tony Robbins]

then you're going to have a beautiful life.

[Zoe Lascauze]

That's Tony from one of his many ads for Unleash the Power Within a four day event that regularly draws thousands of people. He's coached Serena Williams, advised Bill Clinton, and even taught Oprah to walk on hot coals. Tony's built an empire telling people they can radically improve themselves using nlp.

[Tony Robbins]

You want to change your life. You want to get out of suffering? Trade your expectations for appreciation and your whole life will change in that moment.

[Alice Hines]

But NLP promises more than personal growth. It also promises to teach you how to persuade others.

[Tony Robbins]

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Some people get scared when I say the word. Control people's behaviors. It's already happening.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Fans of NLP say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain. It makes reprogramming the way you think quick and easy. You can simply delete bad habits, banish crippling phobias, and install new patterns like software.

[Alice Hines]

Sounds a little too good to be true.

[Nancy Salzman]

NLP is a model of language patterns to create behavior change.

[Tony Robbins]

Every human problem is a behavioral problem.

[Nancy Salzman]

All communication is some form of manipulation.

[Tony Robbins]

By changing our behaviors, we could change the entire world.

[Alice Hines]

If you Google nlp, you'll find a lot of credible sources saying it's a pseudoscience.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Yet not everything that doesn't go through peer reviewed journals and double blind studies is necessarily useless. Think of alternative therapies people get a lot out of anyway.

[Alice Hines]

Or hypnosis.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Right. Like hypnosis, which is used by legit doctors to help people with very concrete problems.

[Alice Hines]

Smoking cessation, pain management, phobias.

[Zoe Lascauze]

But then it also exists in the collective imagination as this sort of magical, brainwashy, Svengali mind control tactic.

[Alice Hines]

By the way, a lot of NLP is hypnosis. There's huge crossover. Hypnosis is actually how Nancy Salzman got into nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

I'll do a session with you. Whatever you want. Okay. So how do you feel about giving birth?

[Alice Hines]

I am excited to give birth, but I'm also definitely afraid of the physical ordeal. I'm here in a suburban townhouse outside of Albany, New York, with Nancy. We're sitting on a comfy couch in her upstairs office, surrounded by books about Buddhism and neuroscience. I was expecting the Nancy Salzman I'd seen on hbo. Pantsuits, corporate charisma. But today she's dressed casually and feels more like a mom hosting a soccer team. She's prepared an entire lunch spread for us and seems really happy to have company. Her hairless cat keeps jumping on my lap.

[Nancy Salzman]

What is that physical ordeal of birth in your understanding?

[Alice Hines]

Let's see. The physical ordeal is like. I guess I'm afraid of, like, permanent change that is irreversible to my body. I'm afraid of injury. As you've probably guessed, I'm pregnant, like, due in a couple months. When I went to visit Nancy, I'd already been trying hypnosis for relaxation. Turns out hypnobirthing is one of Nancy's specialties, so we're giving it a whirl.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Alice, please don't get brainwashed by Nancy Salzman, Okay?

[Alice Hines]

I know everyone's probably thinking right now that I'm a little nuts, but I came here to learn about Nancy's methods. And sometimes the only way to understand something is to try it.

[Nancy Salzman]

How are you with risk? In other things, I'm okay with some risk. What do you mean?

[Alice Hines]

Like, I feel like I don't think I could be a journalist without taking on some risk.

[Nancy Salzman]

That's what I was thinking. So, probably, like today, for instance, you don't know me, and here you are coming into my house. I mean, you have a little team with you, but who knows what I could have done here in my house to create irreversible, permanent change that could never be.

[Zoe Lascauze]

You never know.

[Nancy Salzman]

Right. But this feels okay to you?

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, that's right. I wasn't sure how much to trust Nancy. And the fact that this whole thing was being recorded and my producers were in the room was also kind of awkward. This was also the very first interview she was giving since she got out of prison. Nancy pled guilty to some charges related to her work in nxivm, but she's consistently maintained that she was also a victim of the group. And she says she was unaware of its most infamous crimes, like branding and sex trafficking.

[Nancy Salzman]

I thought doing this interview would be good because the media that happened when my company fell apart was so inaccurate. And I've always wanted people to know who I was, what I was, was involved in, why I did the work that I did, because it was overshadowed all by the media craziness.

[Alice Hines]

I wasn't here to rehash the NXIVM story. I wanted to learn more about her work with nlp, and I had to give it to Nancy. She was very perceptive. Anytime I used a word, she dug into the unconscious reasons I had, maybe picked it.

[Nancy Salzman]

What NLP taught me to just listen very carefully to what the person says. And I'm trying it on, going, did I worry about that? Did any of the women I've ever done this with ever say that I'm worried about injury? Nobody's ever said that I'm worried about injury.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Okay, just want to jump in here for a second. It's very odd to me, Alice, that she said no woman has ever told her they're worried about injury during childbirth. For most women I know, that is a major concern. Why do you think Nancy was going out of her way to make you feel like a freak?

[Alice Hines]

Okay, I guess you're right. I mean, so here's what I think she was doing. By making me think my problem is in my head, it becomes weirdly fixable. So it's a strategy.

[Nancy Salzman]

Are you afraid of pain? Have you had much pain in your life?

[Alice Hines]

Some. I got in a skiing accident once that was pretty painful.

[Nancy Salzman]

What happened?

[Alice Hines]

I actually don't really know. I had mixed feelings about this whole session. But later, Nancy used our conversation to make me a hypnobirthing tape. And I was surprised by how into it I was.

[Nancy Salzman]

Take a deep breath in and slowly exhale and notice how your body feels, that you have a body, and that your body has taken care of you all through your life and will continue to take care of you now and in the future.

[Alice Hines]

I listened to this tape regularly as I prepared to give birth. Although I will admit I transcribed it first to make sure there wasn't anything creepy or subliminal messages

[Nancy Salzman]

you can Allow yourself to become more and more self assured.

[Zoe Lascauze]

So did it work?

[Alice Hines]

I think it kind of did, yeah. I mean, even listening to it now, it makes me feel relaxed. You too or.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Yeah, no, it's a vibe. It honestly reminds me of something you'd find on a meditation app.

[Nancy Salzman]

Yeah.

[Alice Hines]

And it's not just Nancy's words, but her tone and the way she's pacing it. It gave me confidence as I listened it. Yeah, it totally took the edge off.

[Nancy Salzman]

And you can relax into each contraction and allow your body to do what it already knows how to do.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy learned these hypnotic language patterns from nlp. It's her secret sauce. When Nancy was a kid, her mother suffered from debilitating back pain.

[Nancy Salzman]

I grew up in New Jersey in a middle class family. My mother had a chronic pain problem that started when I was about 6 and I think I was one of those kids who was really empathic.

[Alice Hines]

So she became a nurse specifically interested in treating chronic pain patients through alternative medicine. That's how she found hypnosis.

[Nancy Salzman]

I didn't want to use drugs. I wanted to do something non traditional. And my ex husband was a physician and he introduced me to the whole idea, whole idea of hypnosis for chronic pain and biofeedback. And one thing led me to another, to another, to another.

[Alice Hines]

And hypnosis is how Nancy found nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

I thought the language patterns in NLP were brilliant and NLP said that you could break down any behavior and teach it to somebody else. So I started learning to break down behaviors and look for different things that I had ever looked for before.

[Alice Hines]

But she was wary at first.

[Nancy Salzman]

Well, they made a lot of claims that the skills of NLP could fix phobias, could do a whole number of things that were amazing to me and if it was possible, I wanted to learn, but I was kind of skeptical if it was possible.

[Zoe Lascauze]

If you're beginning to wonder what exactly NLP is, that's normal. It can mean a lot of different things and be used a lot of different ways. Don't worry, we're going to explain it over the course of the series and we'll get into how some people see it as the ultimate life hack, while others have laundered it into extreme methods of controlling others.

[Alice Hines]

For now, what you need to know is that NLP formed the basis of Nancy's self help programs.

[Nancy Salzman]

In nxivm, I saw many, many, many, many people benefit and.

[Alice Hines]

And you are still proud of the program you created?

[Nancy Salzman]

Yes, I'm absolutely proud of it. I'm not proud of how Everything ended up.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy still believes in NLP deeply and uses it all the time. It got her through prison.

[Nancy Salzman]

I will tell you that. The judge sentenced me to go to a camp like Martha Stewart, and that's what I thought was going to happen. And they sent me to a maximum security female prison and it was a nightmare.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy charges for her role in nxivm. She was sent to federal prison in West Virginia in February of 2022.

[Nancy Salzman]

I was terrified because they were really mean. They were very mean. I had no rights. Like you have no rights when you're there and whatever they want to do with you, they're going to do with you.

[Alice Hines]

She says this dark chapter of her life still haunts her. When she's feeling down, she turns to nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

And when I tell you the worst moments, moments when I believed I had been dealt a really unfair hand and I had been stuck in a horrible situation where I was given no control and I allowed myself to start really suffering about it and feeling really victimized and miserable, about a month in, I said to myself, what is wrong with you? You have all of these tools. Use them. And I put myself in a good state. And I said, see, you know how to do this. It is inexcusable for you to stay in this state because you are making yourself miserable. You don't know when you're leaving. You don't know how long you have to be here. You don't know what's gonna happen. But you have control of your state. Use it. And I did. And I kept myself in a good state the whole time I was stuck in prison. Woo.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Yikes. That was intense.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah. And I know maybe some listeners are thinking, can we trust Nancy here? Is it possible she's hyping NLP because she's looking for a comeback or a way to talk about anything other than nxivm? Maybe, maybe not.

[Zoe Lascauze]

I actually find Nancy credible here. She didn't have to talk about using NLP on herself in prison. And what I find really striking is that NLP clearly isn't just some scammy hustle she used on other people. She used it on herself. This is what saved her.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah. She's saying she used NLP in the most high stakes situation of her whole life.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Did she explain though how that actually worked? Like which NLP methods was she using?

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, so there's this concept in nlp. It has kind of a cyborgy name. It's called State control.

[Nancy Salzman]

And what's so great about state control is that once you learn that you can bring up an excited state, it naturally follows that you can bring up any state you want.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy learned these techniques from a man who was incredibly influential in her life, NLP co founder Richard Bandler.

[Nancy Salzman]

And what Richard Bandler taught me in that weekend, which was the most amazing thing of all, was that I had control over my emotional states, and I had no excuse ever to be in a bad state, ever, unless I was allowing it. And I will forever be grateful to him for that.

[Alice Hines]

You are using these techniques decades later, when you went to prison.

[Nancy Salzman]

I'm still using them. My mother just died. I could just sit here and cry with you. I'm so sad. But that's not what we're here to do, so I'm not going to. And you don't have to see that.

[Alice Hines]

So, just to give you some context, Nancy's mom died three weeks before our interview. We were going to cancel, but then she said she didn't want to. And when we got to her house, she had cooked us this whole lunch, like black bean soup. So naturally, when she started crying in this moment, I felt really bad and just wanted to give her a hug.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Okay, apologies. This is going to sound incredibly harsh, but I have to ask, are we sure she was actually losing control of her emotions? Didn't she just tell us she can be wildly happy in prison? Could she also make herself cry on cue?

[Alice Hines]

Part of me did feel like I was watching a talented actor. It was kind of whiplash, her swing from anguish to then calmly referencing her mother's death. And these emotions were also visible in her face and voice, so it would just instantly shift. My take is that these are Nancy's real emotions, but she has an insane level of control about when to dial in to a specific emotion and immediately shift to another. She says, anyone can do this. It's the power of nlp.

[Zoe Lascauze]

As someone who does occasionally fall to pieces, this ability sounds incredibly seductive. I would honestly love to have more emotional control on command.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, totally. But what's scarier is the idea that the person teaching you these emotional control techniques could also use them against you.

[Zoe Lascauze]

This is one of the truly disconcerting things about nlp. Even the most seemingly helpful techniques can be used in sinister ways. And because NLP masters pride themselves on controlling their every little word and emotion, it's really hard to know who to

[Alice Hines]

trust, including the guy who started it all. Richard Bandler, a man with a checkered

[Zoe Lascauze]

past and a crazy, spooky laugh.

[Nancy Salzman]

Foreign.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway it is Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

[Redfin Advertiser]

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Nancy Salzman]

I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities so so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Alice Hines]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only,

[Redfin Advertiser]

then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Alice Hines]

See full [e-mail] to understand neuro linguistic programming, you have to understand its contradictory founder Richard Bandler. Sources have told us Bandler is a liar and a drunk and he has

[Zoe Lascauze]

a history of making violent threats.

[Alice Hines]

Although just so you know, he disagrees with and denies all of these characterizations.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And yet, here's the Bandler paradox. He spent his career trying to help others and he's succeeded. Tons of clients swear by him, for example.

[Richard Bandler]

I've had a lot of people that have, you know, that didn't believe that people could change quickly that went to a workshop and walked out and changed their whole world about that.

[Zoe Lascauze]

As he explains in the seminar from the 1980s, Bandler's whole thing was making people feel like they had the power to fix their own problems. We collected as many of the DVD box sets of his seminars as we could find, watching and studying hours of tape. Here he is in another series, Creating Therapeutic Change.

[Richard Bandler]

See, once you give people the resources, then you also got to tell them it doesn't happen to them. Too many people think that they come in and they go and hypnotize me and change me and I just go, no, that's too easy. You don't deserve that. I said you have to earn that from me. You have to go out and kick the shit out of your own problem first. I'll give you the basis to do it, but you've got to actively participate in your own life.

[Zoe Lascauze]

NLP has spread throughout the world since it emerged in Santa Cruz, California in the 1970s. Do a quick search for therapists on Psychology Today and you'll find tons of people with PhDs who include NLP in their list of methods.

[Alice Hines]

And some therapy professionals even use NLP without disclosing it, maybe without even realizing it the inventor of one of the most widely used therapies for trauma, emdr, was very influenced by nlp.

[Zoe Lascauze]

NLP changed over the decades, but the central promise remains the same. These techniques will give you more power. This, Bandler explains, is his goal for all his students.

[Richard Bandler]

Even though I do do it to them, I won't tell them I did. I won't give them the satisfaction of knowing because I still want them above and beyond whatever change they make to get actively involved in their own life, actively involved in running their own brain.

[Alice Hines]

NLP is all about getting out of your patterns, out of your head and creating more choice.

[Richard Bandler]

The reason they want you to come in and just hypnotize me and make the problem go away is because the reason the problem is there is because it mysteriously has been controlling their life. And the missing piece is their active participation.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Bandler's idea was that with NLP you can achieve anything you desire. Really anything you must take as a

[Richard Bandler]

presupposition that what they have been doing in their life is absurd. If it is not bringing them wealth, ecstasy and happiness all at the same time, it's gotta be pretty absurd.

[Alice Hines]

In the early 1990s, Nancy attended a five day seminar with Bandler in Pennsylvania. So you trained with Richard Bandler. What was he like as a person?

[Nancy Salzman]

I want to say he was impressive in every way, positive and negative. And his skills were amazing. And at the same time he would devalue them by calling it that shit.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy was paying $1,000 to learn that shit. And while she was impressed with the techniques, she found Bandler himself pretty off putting.

[Nancy Salzman]

Yes, I was a little horrified by him at first. I was. I mean, if I'm gonna be honest, you know that I have deep respect for him. I just told you he helped me tremendously. I think he's a genius, but I was a little shocked at how unprofessional he was. He would just show up in like, his clothes often looked like he had been sleeping in them for three or four nights before he showed up in them.

[Alice Hines]

This is one of the many things that intrigued me about Bandler. At NLP's height, he was teaching corporate success techniques to executives. But the guy's own life was kind of a mess. I mean, he was kind of an unrepentant recreational drug user. Right?

[Nancy Salzman]

I wasn't aware of his drug use. I was aware of his alcohol use because he did that quite openly. I didn't see anything like that. I heard about it, but I didn't see it.

[Alice Hines]

Nancy told Me this one crazy story about Bandler where it seemed like he could kind of control her mind and manipulate her into doing something she would never normally do.

[Nancy Salzman]

After training, he would go to the bar and drink a lot with everybody. Didn't seem to get drunk, but he could consume an awful lot of alcohol. It was impressive.

[Alice Hines]

One night, Nancy and some people were having drinks after their NLP seminar. And Bandler was there and we were

[Nancy Salzman]

sitting together and he wanted to go somewhere. And I had watched him drink several. Several is a thought for me. It's not three or four or five or six, even 10. Several is more than 10 martinis. And he wanted to go someplace. And I had just gotten a brand new car and he asked me if we could go in my car. And I said yes. And he convinced me to let him drive. I don't know how he did that.

[Alice Hines]

You let Richard Bandler drive your brand new Volvo, 10 martinis in.

[Nancy Salzman]

He didn't seem drunk.

[Alice Hines]

This guy had something.

[Nancy Salzman]

He did.

[Zoe Lascauze]

What did he have?

[Nancy Salzman]

I don't know. Well, also, he was Richard Bandler, and I was an NLP master practitioner. I wanted to be around him after it was all over. I couldn't believe he convinced me to do that.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Damn. Nancy goes hard.

[Alice Hines]

It should be noted Bandler denies the story.

[Zoe Lascauze]

But seriously, this is a common Bandler motif. He somehow persuades people to stand by him as he does extremely reckless, scary, dangerous things. How'd this work on Nancy?

[Alice Hines]

Well, she thinks it's nlp.

[Nancy Salzman]

Well, do you know anything about nlp? Anchoring? So an anchor is a stimulus and a response. They happen normally in life. Like, let's say you can be anchored to your father's angry voice or your mother's angry voice. So if they use that tone, you just stop as a child. And that's an anchor.

[Alice Hines]

Okay, so Bandler often modulates his voice. That's one part of it, yeah.

[Nancy Salzman]

He played with his voice a lot. Now that I'm thinking back about him.

[Alice Hines]

He did different accents.

[Nancy Salzman]

He did different accents. He did different intonation patterns. He was very good at that.

[Richard Bandler]

How much more fun could I be having? How much better can it get? And as you keep that voice and lock in your head, your unconscious mind can and will confirm that you will make this a way of life that you can and will enjoy.

[Alice Hines]

As you can hear in his seminar, Creating Therapeutic Change, Bandler changes his voice on command.

[Richard Bandler]

And as you do so, take a deep breath and begin to feel a good feeling start to spread throughout your body. That's right. Start to see Tingle all around these

[Alice Hines]

shifts in tones and accent. He's trying to embed hypnotic commands with

[Richard Bandler]

his voice so that slowly, as you return back to the waking state, that commitment becomes locked firm and solid.

[Alice Hines]

In NLP terms, that's called anchoring.

[Richard Bandler]

And the more your body will feel wonderful.

[Alice Hines]

And as we were talking, Nancy was like, wait a second. That's exactly what happened in the bar.

[Nancy Salzman]

Oh, you just wanted me. He anchored you to his voice. That's what he was doing. When he was doing that, he would get you in a certain state, and then when he would use that voice again, you would go back into that state.

[Richard Bandler]

Now, that's just a suggestion you will carry out and follow utterly incompletely.

[Alice Hines]

The idea of anchoring is that you trigger an emotional response or behavior in someone with a physical sensation. Squeezing their wrist or using a sound like a bell or a word said in a certain tone first, you build a heightened emotional state in your client or target.

[Nancy Salzman]

In nlp, what they learned is that when you're having an emotional state, it looks like a bell curve, you know, up and around. And when the state is building, you're going up, up, up, up, up, up, up. With an emotional state, at a certain point, the state peaks out, meaning that's the full state.

[Alice Hines]

Once they reach full state, that's when you anchor. Subscribe now to Mind Games.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Subscribe now to Mind Games.

[Alice Hines]

Subscribe now to Mind Games. It's kind of like training a dog, but you're doing it with a person.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And that's allegedly how Bandler convinced Nancy to drive her new car drunk. Isn't she an NLP wizard, too, though? How'd she not notice that? Do you think Nancy is particularly susceptible to manipulation?

[Alice Hines]

Well, that's exactly what she says. She told me she has a gullible streak.

[Nancy Salzman]

See, I'm very gullible. Oh, my gosh.

[Alice Hines]

But she does really believe she was anchored.

[Nancy Salzman]

Now I know what he did. I never could figure out what he did. I was anchored to his voice.

[Zoe Lascauze]

If that exists, that's an amazing power and amazingly dangerous.

[Alice Hines]

I asked Nancy about that. Can NLP be used for good or evil? Is it a neutral tool?

[Nancy Salzman]

You know, when people ask me about that, one of the things that I say is, a knife in the hands of a surgeon is an amazing tool. A knife in the hands of a murderer is a weapon. I believe, because I've worked with behavior change so much, and even when people want to change, sometimes it's hard. I believe that for the most part, you have to have very bad intent to try to figure out ways of using these things negatively. But is it possible? I'm not going to say it's impossible because, you know, you can anchor in fear states in people easily.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Fear anchors. This is sounding not so neutral. When people are afraid, they're more compliant.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah. And fear was an explicit part of Richard Bandler's therapy. He scared people into fixing themselves.

[Nancy Salzman]

You know, he did threaten punch me in the face.

[Alice Hines]

That was actually turned out to be

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

a very good intervention.

[Alice Hines]

You know, it helped me to have

[Zoe Lascauze]

one of the most profound experiences of my Life. That's Don McCormack, a retired psych professor who knew Bandler and Santa Cruz during the early days of nlp. He was trying to learn a new technique, but kept getting stuck. It was only when Bandler threatened to punch him that suddenly Don got it.

[Alice Hines]

There are even more stories like this one that Bandler told repeatedly was about a schizophrenic patient who thought he was Jesus Christ. Bandler got the patient to build a cross. He brought in the heavy wood beams and giant sized nails. Then he had the guy stretch out on the cross to measure him to make sure it was right. We read about this in a book and honestly don't really know what to make of it or what the patient's reaction was.

[Zoe Lascauze]

We do know many of Bandler's most dramatic therapies featured threats of violence. He denies this, but it's been widely reported that at this one seminar in 1984, a client was trying to work on some problematic aspect of his life. And he made the mistake of joking to Bandler that the only thing that could possibly get him to change would be a loaded gun.

[Alice Hines]

So Bandler whipped one out because in some versions of the story, Bandler has a loaded gun with him, naturally.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And the guy's into it. At first he knows Bandler and his aggressive antics and he even says, well, I'd have to believe you'd actually use it on me for it to help. So Bandler's like, challenge accepted. He tells the therapist, you have no idea how nuts I am. I don't have to kill you. I just have to wound you. Apparently that did the trick. The guy tells Bandler, haha, okay, mission accomplished. I can change that part of my life. And, and Bandler's like, yep, I know because I would have shot you by now. It should be clarified that Bandler says he used a cigarette lighter shaped like a gun, not a gun itself.

[Alice Hines]

I have no idea what to make of this story. Like, what the fuck? I mean, I honestly Also am like, did it really happen? But also, okay, let's say it did, and it supposedly worked.

[Zoe Lascauze]

That's the thing. Even years later, the guy continued to tell reporters that Bandler had helped him. In fact, most of the people I've spoken to have said that when Bandler pulls these kind of hardcore changer, I'll kill you sort of cures, he's just getting in there and doing what needs to be done.

[Richard Bandler]

He would sometimes use threats to get people to do something or to. Or sometimes just even losing his temper. So I had him threaten me before, but with what? Well, Richard, out of the goodness of

[Nancy Salzman]

his heart, would have the ultimate compassion

[Richard Bandler]

to hold a gun to the side of a student's head to provide the

[Nancy Salzman]

motivating factor that would allow them to make a change.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Bandler didn't just intimidate students. According to court documents, he also threatened his employees with violence.

[Richard Bandler]

Hey, push it to the limits, man. Go for the throat at this point, because this is exactly what's going on in their life. They are choosing, and you want it to become a magnanimous choice, one that's fairly obvious which direction they're gonna go. In a positive future or a shitty future, what's it gonna be?

[Zoe Lascauze]

And Bandler pushed it to the limits in his own life.

[Alice Hines]

Were you around when he got accused of murder?

[Nancy Salzman]

No, I think it was before. This is how they used to talk about it. They used to say three people went in the room, two came out alive.

[Alice Hines]

Yeah, you heard that, right? Richard Bandler stood trial for murder in 1987 and was acquitted. Oh, interesting. You joined up afterwards. Did you know about that?

[Nancy Salzman]

Mm.

[Alice Hines]

During his murder trial, including in his own court testimony, the whole world learned that Bandler was a heavy cocaine user and involved with shady characters like Santa Cruz drug dealers. Even after Bandler was found not guilty, the trial became part of his bad boy, loose cannon mystique.

[Richard Bandler]

Now, this is the kind of subtle stuff that I'm trying to get you guys to do, right? It's none of this sitting around and going, and how do you feel about that? You know? Or going into a meeting and going, well, do you see any good prospects for the. That jam them in their head, you know, if I want people work for me to have a positive view of the future, I'm gonna take it and put it on a brick and shove it right in their skull so they don't miss it. I sort of. The sledgehammer approach to things.

[Alice Hines]

Listening to Richard Bandler, his sledgehammer approach to healing, it's what's so provocative about nlp? The grand claims and the seemingly absurdly simple yet weirdly effective techniques. And then there's the whole if you know, you know aspect of the thing. It was shocking to me that NLP was so unknown and yet so relevant. It's literally in every meditation app I've seen. Especially as wellness pervades so many aspects of our lives and we have this collective obsession with self optimization and treating our brains as computers to be reprogrammed. NLP seems more relevant than ever.

[Zoe Lascauze]

It's that pervasiveness that sent us down this road of trying to figure out where it comes from, in part through the story of one of its central figures. Richard Bandler, brilliant outside the box healer.

[Richard Bandler]

They wouldn't give me a license to do therapy because I'm not qualified. I think that's wonderful. Therapy tries to get you to relive trauma. I try to get people to stop thinking about about it so much. My techniques focus on getting people to take control of their mind.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Or slick hustler who sold pseudo scientific life hacks to the US Military and inspired hundreds of imitators.

[Richard Bandler]

It spread all over the planet. It's everywhere. I'm translated into dozens of languages.

[Zoe Lascauze]

We're deeply skeptical of gurus, but we want to separate what's legit from the jargon and empty promises.

[Alice Hines]

So we're going to interview sales whizzes.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

[Alice Hines]

Pickup artists.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

She looked at me and she said, montana Ganum.

[Richard Bandler]

And I said, that's because you have a message for me.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

What's your message?

[Richard Bandler]

And then she leaned over and with

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

her numb tongue, said something about wanting to pleasure me.

[Alice Hines]

And NLP's most famous practitioner, Tony Robbins.

[Tony Robbins]

Tony Robbins is doing all this? He said he's the best NLP guy in the world. Which I did. And when people said I wasn't, I challenged them. I said, let's have an ELP off. You give me your worst patient and we'll see who can handle them quicker. I said, I'm happy to do it. And I won every time I did it.

[Alice Hines]

All of whom credit NLP as the basis of their success. So do some accused cult leaders. Or are they innocent victims? Well, I knew that it was cultish

[Nancy Salzman]

and weird, but I liked it.

[Zoe Lascauze]

For all of those reasons, we'll even test NLP on ourselves. I don't know what I expected to get exactly, but what I got were some pretty specific images from my childhood.

[Nancy Salzman]

This is wild.

[Zoe Lascauze]

And on you, the listener with your consent.

[Alice Hines]

A whole lot of NLP is pretty shady, but some of it is real. We're going to dig into those parts and the science of hypnosis behind them. And don't worry, we will get to the murder.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Oh, and we'll even hear from the man himself, Richard Bandler.

[Richard Bandler]

This is what we refer to as a hit job. And I find this very fucking offensive.

[Alice Hines]

Wow, Richard.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Cotton Canel, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETF with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures let's talk about modern home shopping.

[Redfin Advertiser]

It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right scrolling listings at night dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script with listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app. You can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com hey, it's Shelly Rome on Z100.

[Shelly Rome]

I'm someone who really likes to understand why we think the way that we do, not just how to relax. That's what pulled me into the Waking up app. Created by neuroscientist Sam Harris, it combines meditation with real science and thoughtful storytelling about the mind. I use it after my late night shift to slow things down and gain much needed perspective. If you're looking for a clearer way to reset, explore Waking up for 30 days free with my link wakingup.com roam

[Alice Hines]

Mind Games is a Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is created and hosted by me, Alice Hines and Zoe Lascoz. It's produced by Ryder Alsop and Dara Lukpat, Edited by Kate Osborne Editorial consulting from Adeeza Egan Original composition and mixing by Steve Bone Fact checking by Eamon Whalen from Kaleidoscope.

[Zoe Lascauze]

Our executive producers are Oz Wolosian, Mangesh Hatikador and Kate Osborne from iHeart. Our executive producers are Katrina Norville and Nikki Itor.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Foreign.

[CarMax Advertiser]

This is Julian Edelman from Games With Names. I want to take a second to talk about something that's personal to me. I've had the privilege of working closely with Robert Kraft for a long time, and one thing I've always respected is how seriously he takes up standing up to hate. As a Jewish athlete, my identity is something I am proud of, but I also know what it feels like to be singled out for it. That's why this new commercial for the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate that aired during the Big Game really hit home. It's about showing up for someone when they're targeted, even if you don't have the perfect words. And sometimes standing next to someone is enough. And you can show support by sharing

[Ryan Seacrest]

the Blue Square hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is stock up Savings time now through March 31st spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tax to earn on eligible items from Smart Water, Healthy Choice, Continental, arrowhead, Red Bull, St James, Tillamook and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go, pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and cond conditions.

[Shelly Rome]

It's Shelly Rom late at night, I think a lot about how the mind actually works. That's why I use the Waking up app created by Sam Harris. It blends meditation with real science and ideas that help you see your mind differently. If you want a smarter, calmer reset, explore waking up for 30 days free with my link wakingup.com roam are you

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

a fraud paying American?

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