Ep.4: The Investigation

Summary

Mind of a Monster: The Killer Nurse

Episode 4: The Investigation
Host: Dr. Michelle Ward (ID)
Date: October 14, 2025

---

Overview

In this gripping episode, Dr. Michelle Ward examines the pivotal investigation that led to the exposure of Kristen Gilbert, the infamous nurse turned serial killer at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center (VAMC) in Northampton, Massachusetts. The episode unpacks how nurse suspicions escalated to a federal criminal case, highlighting the actions, obstacles, and emotional toll experienced by patients’ families, whistleblower colleagues, hospital administration, detectives, and prosecutors.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rising Suspicion and Sloppiness

• Timeline: Early 1996; patient Ed Squier's cardiac arrest triggers scrutiny ([02:04]–[04:00])
• Nurses Kathy Ricks, John Wall, and Renee Walsh notice suspicious patient deaths closely following Kristen’s shifts.
• Discovery of an empty epinephrine drawer, a drug whose misuse can be difficult to trace, prompts the nurses to confront the issue with their supervisor Melody Turner.

“Kristin Gilbert started to become brazen, and I think that’s because she was not stopped when she knew that she was crossing the line and doing catchable things. And she was like, they’re not going to catch me.”
— Beatrice Yorker, former nurse and professor, [02:40]

2. Immediate Measures and Kristen’s Removal

• Key Moment: Feb 17, 1996, staff meeting to discuss actions ([04:59]–[05:44])
• Plan to offer Kristen the night off fails—Kristen refuses, leading to tense monitoring of her rounds by John Wall.
• In a twist, Kristen claims a patient twisted her arm and that she suffered a needle puncture, using it as a reason to leave on sick leave, a tactic she’d prepared (her boyfriend, James Peralt, confirms she could dislocate her arm at will) ([06:28]–[07:40]).

“She was able to dislocate it at will... she was able to do like that actor Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon.”
— James Peralt, [07:07]

3. Escalating Death Toll and Family Grief

• List of four unexpected patient deaths firmly linked to Kristen within five months ([08:58]):
  • Stanley Jagadowski (Aug 21, 1995)
  • Henry Houdon (Dec 8, 1995)
  • Kenneth Cutting (Feb 2, 1996)
  • Edward Squier (Feb 18, 1996)

“Maybe that’s what really made it real to me was seeing his dead body... having his casket be open is what made me really understand that he was not there anymore and that I wouldn’t see him again.”
— Sarah Squier, Ed’s granddaughter, [08:35]

4. Whistleblower Action Meets Bureaucratic Hurdles

• Families begin demanding answers. Henry Houdon’s sister, Christine, contacts the police and media when her concerns are dismissed by authorities.
• Internal VA investigation initially finds no wrongdoing; reviewers lack criminal investigative experience ([12:27]–[13:45]).
• VA brings in Bruce Sackman, an investigator with rare expertise in medical serial killings.

“Being the cynical New Yorker that I am, I said, well, who’s on this team? And he said... doctors and very good people... but none were trained in criminal investigation.”
— Bruce Sackman, [13:45]

5. Building a Federal Case

• Sackman’s criminal team interviews staff and reviews medical files; all investigators suspect Kristen of murder ([14:12]–[14:34]).
• Investigators must convince a federal prosecutor; William Welch is initially incredulous but quickly grasps the gravity ([24:01]–[24:56]).
• Importance of whistleblowers—nurse colleagues risk reputations and livelihoods to come forward ([21:34]–[23:07]).

“If it wasn’t for these brave nurse whistleblowers, we wouldn’t be here today having this conversation.”
— Bruce Sackman, [21:34]

6. Investigative Techniques and Challenges

• Each patient’s hospital death is treated as a crime scene—unique for healthcare settings ([33:45]).
• Lack of timely autopsies complicates investigation; only Henry Houdon’s was done due to family insistence ([35:00]).
• The team is forced to learn medical protocols, tackle bureaucratic red tape, and withstand internal pressure and skepticism.

“Most cops, and I put myself in this position, we didn’t become cops because we were good in chemistry and biology, okay? So we're very dependent on the medical professionals. We can't really challenge what they tell us scientifically.”
— Bruce Sackman, [32:56]

7. Kristen’s Manipulation, Fallout, and Escalating Instability

• Kristen tries to control the narrative: contacting colleagues to sway them, feigning innocence, disparaging whistleblowers, and instructing boyfriend James to report on the case ([36:19]–[36:51]).
• Her mental health deteriorates—she makes numerous threats of self-harm and suicide, uses these to manipulate both investigators and those close to her ([38:07]–[44:03]).
• When James tries to end the relationship, Kristen reacts violently and with further dramatic suicide threats ([40:48]–[42:53]).
• Forensic psychologist Dr. Katherine Ramsen interprets these behaviors as indicative of severe personality disorder ([41:40]).

“There was—there were expressions of anger toward anyone that Kristin saw as cooperating with the investigation.”
— Glenn Gilbert, estranged husband, [35:27]

“The whole point of it was to create distractions away from what we were doing, but also to continue to burnish her image as the victim... I thought all of it was all made up, number one. But number two, people grew so tired of it.”
— William Welch, prosecutor, [42:53]

8. Shocking Confession and Cliffhanger

• In an emotionally heightened phone call from the psychiatric ward, Kristen seemingly confesses:

“I did it. I did it. I injected those guys.”
— Kristen Gilbert (via James Peralt), [44:35]

• The episode ends with a preview of further chaos—including bomb threats and the investigation’s dramatic new turns.

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “We had an example of her wanting to leave early and saying, if this person dies, can I leave? And then suddenly he dies.” — Recap, [01:32]
• “If you have to testify in this case... did you actually see nurse Kristen Gilbert kill anybody? Well no... unless you actually have 100% proof... just be happy you have a job and go back to your little ward.” — Bruce Sackman, on whistleblower fears, [22:46]
• “My first reaction was, this is someone who’s pranking me. There’s no way like this is going on.” — William Welch, federal prosecutor, on first hearing about the case, [24:05]
• “You think that you’re going to ignore a bunch of dead bodies because she’s crying. And that’s not how an investigation works.” — Dr. Michelle Ward, [44:03]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kristen’s rising boldness and whistleblowers take action: [02:04]–[06:38]
• Kristen’s removal via a fabricated accident: [06:28]–[07:40]
• Family grief and unanswered deaths: [08:13]–[09:50]
• VA internal & criminal investigative transition: [11:12]–[14:34]
• Federal prosecutors brought on board: [24:01]–[27:56]
• Kristen's manipulation, breakdown, and confession: [36:00]–[44:35]

---

Tone and Style

The narrative blends clinical investigation with intense emotion—fear, confusion, and outrage from victims’ families, steady resolve from investigators and prosecutors, and a chillingly manipulative aura around Kristen. Dr. Michelle Ward mediates with empathy and suspense, providing context and psychological insight while letting the voices of those involved drive the story.

---

Conclusion

Episode 4 methodically reveals both the painstaking effort and emotional cost behind the breakthrough in the Kristen Gilbert case. The courage of whistleblowers, the doggedness of investigators, and the intricate hurdles of prosecuting crimes in healthcare come together in a tense, suspenseful progression toward Gilbert’s exposure—with the promise of even more explosive revelations ahead.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[B]

Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[A]

We have no stores. That means no small talk.

[B]

Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not.

[A]

It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Seemintmobile.com oh, the car from Carvana's here.

[B]

Well, will you look at that. It's exactly what I ordered. Like precisely. It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right?

[A]

Right. Because that's how car buying should be with Carvana. You get the car you want, choose delivery or pickup and a week to love it or return it.

[B]

Buy your car today with Carvana.

[A]

Deliver your pickup fees may apply. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our 7 day return [e-mail] tired of your car insurance rate going up?

[B]

Even with a clean driving record, you're not alone.

[C]

That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from.

[A]

Over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease.

[C]

Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop.

[A]

No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save.

[C]

Over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry AI Acast today.

[A]

This podcast explores themes of violence, self harm and murder. Listener discretion is advised. Please note some of the voices you hear in the series have been performed by actors. Previously on Mind of a the Killer Nurse. We had an example of her wanting to leave early and saying, if this person dies, can I leave? And then suddenly he dies.

[C]

I got home that day and got a phone call that he had had a heart attack.

[A]

Then she noticed it was Kristen that was usually in the center of things. Kristin Gilbert is a health care serial killer convicted of murdering four patients, attempting to murder two more, and suspected of killing dozens of others. Her victim count could be as high as in the hundreds from ID and Aeromedia. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is Mind of a Monster, the killer nurse. Chapter four, the investigation. It's February 15, 1996, after the shock of discovering the empty epinephrine door in the ICU following patient Ed's Score as cardiac arrest nurses Kathy Ricks, John Wall and Renee Walsh call the nurse manager, Melody Turner. She is their direct senior and acts as a liaison between nurses and administrators. A meeting is arranged for Saturday, February 17th. With the casually discarded epinephrine, plus the numerous instances of Kristen being close to patients immediately preceding their death, it appears she is becoming sloppy. Beatrice Yorker is a former nurse and professor of criminal justice at California State University. Kristin Gilbert started to become brazen, and I think that's because she was not stopped when she knew that she was crossing the line and doing catchable things. And she was like, they're not going to catch me. I can just do this. Meanwhile, Ed Squirre's condition worsens and he's transferred to Bay State Medical center for specialist observation. Ed Squier's granddaughter Sarah was just seven at the time.

[C]

In talking to my dad, he said.

[A]

That he remembered kind of deterring my.

[C]

Sister and I from visiting him because he was in a state that my dad thought would be traumatic for us to see and that we didn't want to remember him that way. So I never went to visit him while he was in the hospital. But I do remember my dad going.

[A]

After a day or so at Bay State, Ed is transported back to the Veterans Affairs Medical center or the VAMC Northampton. His son, Ed Squera Jr. Describes what happened.

[C]

I spent the night at the VA.

[B]

Hospital sitting with him. He was extremely restless the whole time.

[C]

And something just didn't add up because they were supposedly giving him pain medicine.

[B]

But he wasn't comfortable and he was acting like somebody who was being sedated.

[C]

But not given any pain Medicine.

[A]

It's February 17, 1996. The day of the staff meeting arrives, and Kathy Ricks, John Wall and Renee Walsh meet with nurse manager Melody Turner. They share their concerns with her and make a plan. Kristen can't be fired without evidence, but there is a need to remove her or at least neutralize her from the ward. There's just one problem. Kristen is due to start her shift in a matter of hours. Melody Turner tells Kathy, Rick's, John Wall and Renee Walsh that she will offer Kristen the night off. I told them that I would take care of the staffing on the ward, and I made a plan to cover the ward. I told John to go to the ward and I told him that I.

[C]

Wanted Kristen to be off and that.

[A]

We were going to get her off duty and that's what we were going to do. Just the week before, Melody had reprimanded Kristen for not showing up to her Saturday shift. So the request risks seeming out of character. Nevertheless, Melody calls Ward C and Kristen answers. She refuses to end her shift. This was not supposed to happen. And panicked John Wall follows Kristen from patient to patient. She becomes suspicious. What's going through her mind at this point? Surely things can't continue this way. Then something happens that no one could have predicted. Massachusetts State Detective Lt. Tom Soutier explains.

[C]

When she thought it might be looking at her, she somehow got injured. She said that one of the patients twisted her arm and that she was.

[A]

Injured at reception with a bandaged arm. Kristen asks to go home. As well as claiming to have had her arm twisted out of its socket, she also alleges that the incident had caused her to accidentally puncture herself in the hand with a dirty needle. Dislocating an arm is an enormously painful experience. However, as Kristen Gilbert's boyfriend James Peralt would explain, all is not quite as it seems.

[B]

She had showed me that she was able to dislocate it on at will. And she had made a comment several times that she was able to do like that actor in Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon and. And able to pop it in and out just like him. Through twisting it in certain ways, she was able to cause the socket or the shoulder to pop out of the socket.

[C]

And she went home on injured leave and wore a cast for a while, or not a cast, just a sling.

[A]

From that point on, Kristen is put on sick leave. Finally, she is out of the hospital. During their meeting last Saturday, Melody Turner gave Kathy Ricks, John Wall and Renee Walsh some advice. I told them to get attorneys. The following day, February 18, 1996, Ed Squirra dies at the VAMC Northampton, age 7. Sarah Squirre attends her grandpa's funeral.

[C]

It was in the church in my. The town my grandparents lived in. And so it's a fairly small Catholic church. I remember sitting with my parents and.

[A]

I just remember sitting and crying and.

[C]

Like kind of loudly crying. And I do know that it was an open casket.

[A]

Maybe that's what really made it real to me was seeing his dead body.

[C]

Sometimes I think that it helps you.

[A]

Really kind of wrap your mind around.

[C]

That the person is gone. So I think having his casket be.

[A]

Open is what made me really understand.

[C]

That he was not there anymore and that I wouldn't see him again.

[A]

There are now four unexpected patient deaths in just over five months that can be closely connected to Kristen Gilbert. Stanley Jagadowski dies August 21, 1995, age 66. Fifteen weeks later, on December 8, 1995, Henry Houdon dies, age 35. Eight weeks later, Kenneth Cutting dies on February 2, 1996, at age 40. Then 10 days later, on February 18, 1996, Edward Sklira dies at age 69. Ever since his death in December 1995, Henry Houdon's sister Christine has been searching for answers. So they gave me a call when his records, a copy of his records were sent back there, and I went back up and I got them. And on the way home, I had to pass the Northampton State Police barracks, and I stopped in. Make a long story short, they laughed me. They laughed me right out the door. So I went from there to the Northampton newspaper, the Hampshire Gazette, immediately. Wow, you are quite the sister. That's where it all started. And they did an article. And the next thing you know, I got a phone call from the local news channel 40, channel 22, channel 3 in Hartford. And I'm getting so much mail from reporters all across the country of mishaps that have happened in VA centers. Unbeknownst to Christine, on the same day as ed Squera's death, February 18, 1996, investigations into Kristen Gilbert begin. Melody Turner informs the head of medicine at Northampton VA and is instructed to pull all the files for every emergency code in which Kristin has been involved. She, Kathy Ricks, John Wall, and Renee Walsh are also told to speak to the head of security at the VAMC as part of what they call an internal administrative investig. Bruce Sackman was a special agent in the U.S. department of Veterans affairs in the 1990s and early 2000s.

[C]

So Veterans affairs hospitals are federal hospitals, and every federal agency in the United States has an Office of Inspector General. And the purpose of the Office of Inspector General is to ferret out fraud, waste, and abuse. And the Office of Inspector General is an independent agency. It reports to Congress and it reports to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Right now, inside the VA Office of Inspector General, we had three different divisions. We have an Office of Audit that does audits. We had something that most other IGs don't have, which is an Office of Health Care Inspections. And this is an office of doctors and nurses and other people who go to the hospitals and make sure they're compliant with all the rules and regulations, policies and procedures, but they're not criminal investigators. Okay. The third division is the division that I had for the Northeast was the Criminal Investigation Division, and we were the cops who carried guns and made arrests and did all that criminal work for the VA hospital system.

[A]

It is the second of these departments, the Office for Healthcare Inspections, that goes to VAMC Northampton.

[C]

First, after these allegations surfaced that Kristin may be harming patients, they sent the team in. And this team concluded that there was nothing wrong.

[A]

It turned out the way most everybody thought it was going to turn out. They didn't see any misconduct. They didn't see any malpractice. All is good and well at Lee's Hospital. I knew better, at least as far as my brother is concerned. They claimed that they could find no evidence of wrongdoing. Kristin Gilbert, who is now on permanent leave owing to her shoulder injury, is all but cleared. In the mid-1990s, Bruce Sackman was the lead investigator in the case against Dr. Michael Swango on Long Island. He was convicted of killing three, but suspected of murdering up to 60 patients by poisoning. Bruce is one of the few within the VA system with experience investigating healthcare serial killers. The VA calls Bruce to gather a team to help with this huge investigation. What did you think of the results of the first investigation?

[C]

Being the cynical New Yorker that I am, I said, well, who's on this team? And he said, well, there were doctors and very good people. I mean, but none of them were really trained in criminal investigation. And I said, well, you know what? Since we've been successful with this Swango case on Long island, let me send some people to take a look at this Kristen Gilbert case.

[A]

I see.

[C]

And they interviewed some of the whistleblowers and some of the nurses, and then they came back to my office and we had a meeting. I said, what do you think? And the leader of the team at that time said, who here thinks Kristen Gilbert murdered the patients? And all the investigators raised their hand. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That's unbelievable.

[C]

Okay. Wow. So what do we do now?

[B]

All right, remember, the machine knows if you're lying. First statement. Carvana will give you a real offer on your car. All online.

[C]

False. True.

[B]

Actually, you can sell your car in minutes.

[A]

False. That's gotta be true again.

[B]

Carvana will pick up your car from your door, or you can drop it off at one of their car vending machines.

[A]

Sounds too good to be true.

[B]

So true finally caught on. Nice job. Honesty isn't just their policy. It's their entire model. Sell your car today, too, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. You've worked hard to build your business. Simplisafe helps you protect it. With SimpleLife for Business, AI powered cameras watch over your entry points and instantly alert live monitoring agents. They can deter intruders before they get inside. It's protection built for growing companies 24. 7 monitoring, no contracts and a 60 day money back guaranteed. To get 50% off your new system, go to SimpliSafe.com podcast. That's SimpliSafe.com podcast for 50% off. There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[A]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[B]

Now I don't know if you've heard.

[A]

But Mint's premium wireless is $15 a month.

[B]

But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[A]

We have no stores.

[B]

That means no small talk crazy weather we're having.

[A]

No it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan, $15 per month equivalent required New customer offer first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com Got a new puppy or kitten? Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet insurance comes in. It helps you cover vet costs so that you can focus on what's best for you and your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as three seconds. Pro tip Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is. It's important to reflect on how utterly remarkable this situation is. Kristen Gilbert has been linked to the deaths of four people, and yet she is still walking free. Her nursing license has not been revoked, she has not been fired. She's simply home on sick leave. If she wanted, she could apply for a job elsewhere. With the benefit of hindsight, this situation is unbelievable. I speak to Bruce about how his criminal investigation department within the VA's Inspector General Office first became aware of the case in Northampton. In the VA system in the 1990s, you were just hospitals, right? Like that was. That was. You were just investigating crime within the hospital?

[C]

Well, in the hospitals, in the outpatient clinics, in what we called the extended care centers, which were nursing homes, and also in the regional offices where they administered benefits to veterans. That was my world and I had an incredible smorgasbord of cases to pick and choose from because most people don't realize that hospitals are like small cities. There's a tremendous amount of crime that could occur in a hospital, and people don't even think about it. You know, most people think that you go to a hospital after you're a victim of a crime, not to first become a victim of a crime. And to me, a hospital was always like a sanctuary from crime, right?

[A]

Well, you would think so. It's where you go to get help, not to get hurt.

[C]

Yes, and of course it is. But there's so much that can go wrong in a hospital. Then the last thing in the world he or she needs is someone that's intentionally murdering their patients. My God.

[A]

When did the Kristen Gilbert case first land on your desk?

[C]

I remember I got the call and this is what happened. Apparently, some staff people had complained to management that every time Nurse Kristen Gilbert was on duty, the death rate went up. She took time off, that death rate went down. Now, that doesn't mean that she's a serial killer. Hey, she might. There might be legitimate reasons. She might have the most complex cases. You know, there might be something like that. The interesting thing was, though, that these patients weren't expected to expire when they did. And that's a pattern that I've seen doing these cases now throughout the world. The patients have a lot of medical problems. That's why they're in the icu. The first time I looked at a veteran's medical file that was in the ICU, the file was, I don't know, 12 inches thick. I didn't know you could be alive and have this much wrong with you. And now I have to prove you were murdered so you could see how easy it could be for people to, one say, there's so much wrong with him, this death could have been a result of his natural disease processes, because look how many ailments he had, look how many things wrong with him. So here you have a victim in a hospital surrounded by the most professional, caring nurses and doctors. They would never do anything to intentionally harm a person.

[A]

You think.

[C]

You think, right. So it can't be. We refuse to believe that one of our co workers who has taken that.

[A]

Oath solemnly pledge myself before God.

[C]

You know, the doctors have taken that Hippocratic oath, my life in purity. The nurses take something called the Florence Nightingale oath, which is very similar.

[A]

Which.

[C]

Says essentially, I will not do anything.

[A]

To harm a patient, administer any harmful drug.

[C]

And of course, 99.9% of the medical profession feels exactly that way and acts. In fact, that's why it's so easy to hide. Because, look, if I was inclined to kill a number of people, if I'M in the Mafia. If I'm in a motorcycle gang, that's where you'd expect me to be. But you wouldn't expect me to be in a group of the most dedicated, honest, hard working, compassionate people you ever want to meet, right?

[A]

The VA's Criminal Investigation Team starts to interview staff and consult medical files.

[C]

So in spite of all of this, if it wasn't for these brave nurse whistleblowers, we wouldn't be here today having this conversation. That makes sense and it took a tremendous amount of courage because, you know, when you become a whistleblower now, all of a sudden you're kind of under investigation. Let me ask you a question, nurse. If we drug tested you today, are you going to turn up positive in anything? I mean, is your license and all your training up to snuff? How's your eyesight? You know, I just asked you this because these are the kind of questions you're going to be asked if you have to testify in this case. And by the way, did you actually see nurse Kristen Gilbert kill anybody? Well, no, I didn't actually see, but, you know, she's the last person in here and all. Well, that's not the same nurse, you know. And what's the matter? You don't like working at this hospital? You know what happens if this gets in the news? Nurse? Think they're going to close down this hospital? You're going to be out of a job. I'm going to be out of a job.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

So unless you've actually have 100% proof that Kristen Gill would kill somebody, just be happy you have a job and go back to your little ward and let's just move on because if this gets out in the community, we're all going to be out of work.

[A]

A killer is on the loose. But even as they start to build a case, there's another hurdle to clear. As Bruce explains.

[C]

You know, most brand new agents think that, oh, as soon as you have evidence of a crime, you go to the prosecutor and they're going to prosecute. It doesn't work that way. You really have to sell your case. Why? Because there are so many other agencies trying to sell their cases and get the attention of prosecutors. They have the FBI, Secret Service, Drug Enforcement Administration, Customs, a whole host, every IG from every federal agency, and they all have what they call an intake assistant. And he sits there, an assistant U.S. attorney, and he listens and he decides as to whether or not going to take the case or not. So it's A sales job.

[A]

The federal prosecutor at the time is William Welch.

[B]

I recall that it was a Friday afternoon, it was probably early afternoon, and two special agents from the VA called. And they basically said on the phone that they'd like to meet with me because they believe they had a serial killer up at the Northampton VA Medical Center. And my first reaction was, this is someone who's pranking me. There's no way like this is going on. But the voice didn't sound familiar. The way they were talking sounded quite genuine, and they wanted to meet that day. And the very odd part of all of it was I was what's called the duty attorney. So in most U.S. attorney offices, you have a lawyer that, for that particular work week, will take in all of the calls from the public. And I would say 90% of our calls and 90% of our visits are individuals wearing the tinfoil hat, and they've got something crazy to report. But the other 10% are things that, you know, you want to look at. And you can discern the two pretty quickly. But they wanted to meet me, and I said, sure, come on in. I think they were there within 45 minutes. They laid out for me the facts that they had developed to date, their theory about what was going on, and they wanted to initiate a grand jury investigation. And my thought was, well, one, you know, this sounds pretty crazy. Like, this can't really be going on. But number two, I can't ignore this. I mean, the facts that they told me to that point, the allegations, the fact that we were talking about incredibly vulnerable victims and this nurse was still up there, all warranted doing something at that point in time.

[A]

Bruce Sackman, was Bill Welch a hard sale?

[C]

No. I've had a whole career of hard sales. He was not. He was fantastic. He had never done a homicide case. My office had never done a homicide case. This is real amateur hour here, okay? I mean, I had the one on Long island, so I was, like, the big expert. I had one case, but Bill Welch had never done a homicide case. But he was fascinated and intrigued by what we had to say, and he rolled up his sleeves and jumped on board. And then he got an assistant prosecutor. Her name was Arianne Vouno. Outstanding. Really outstanding. She had been a state prosecutor before being a federal prosecutor, and she had done homicide cases. And then lastly, I said, well, I'm going to have one of my agents, Steve Plant, permanently assigned to this case until it's over. But the state police had their homicide investigator, a guy named Kevin Murphy, who was very well Experienced. And him and Steve Plant got along. The whole team got along like family.

[A]

I've heard that from so many people. Bruce. I spoke with Steve on the phone. What a guy. And he had just the most wonderful things to say about Mr. Murphy, about you, about everybody involved.

[C]

You know, I've had a lot of joint cases, and sometimes there's agency conflicts and disagreements. This was textbook perfect. Steve Plant kind of looks like Jean Claude Van Damme.

[A]

I saw that.

[C]

Oh, he was a charmer. The nurses loved him. He was a charmer. And Kevin Murphy, more the Dirty Harry type. But the two of them, the team was just amazing. I mean, just really fantastic.

[A]

As strong as they were, members of the investigative team had the unenviable task of informing families that the loved ones they thought had died natural, albeit unexpected deaths had actually been murdered. Victim Henry Houdon's sister, Christine Duquette. I just had a gut feeling that if the media takes hold of this, they're gonna have to come up with some kind of answers. So the media did take hold of it, and it was like wildfire between all the newspapers, all the tv. Next thing we know, I was called and it was turned over to the Northampton District Attorney's office, Elizabeth Scheibel. And they asked me if I could go to her office, and I did. And that's when I was introduced to Bill Welch, a US Attorney from Springfield, and Kevin Murphy, who was head of homicide for the Massachusetts State Police. Okay, so now there is going to be a real investigation. Let's hope it really is a real investigation. So when you went first went and met with the U.S. attorney and these detectives, did they introduce the idea to you that it was Kristen, or did you start suspecting Kristen? No, they introduced the idea. And how did you feel hearing that, that this could have been potentially a homicide, not an accident? Horrible. Absolutely horrible. And trying to put myself in the situation of three of her, not just co workers, but also personal friends. If it were not for them, I don't know that they would have been able to find anything.

[B]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing, slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that, because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have.

[C]

All at no additional charge.

[B]

Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting.

[C]

All linked and talking to each other.

[B]

Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com. You've worked hard to build your business. SimpliSafe helps you protect it with SimpliSafe for business. AI powered cameras watch over your entry points and instantly alert live monitoring agents. They can deter intruders before they get inside. It's protection built for growing companies. 24. 7 monitoring, no contracts and a 60 day money back guarantee. To get 50% off your new system, go to SimpliSafe.com podcast. That's SimpliSafe.com podcast for 50% off. There's no SAF like SimpliSafe.

[A]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[B]

Now I don't know if you've heard.

[A]

But Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month.

[B]

But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[A]

We have no stores. That means no small talk.

[B]

Crazy weather we're having.

[A]

No it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Cmnobile.com hey, I'm Paige Desorbo and I'm always thinking about underwear. I'm Hannah Burner and I'm also thinking.

[B]

About underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

[A]

I like to call them my granny panties. Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John. Same. They're so light and so comfy. And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it. And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable. Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas. Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly. Put yourself on to Tommy John. Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.comfort. see site for detail. William Welch. You must have felt tremendous pressure to do something very quickly because it's not common where you're investigating a criminal or murderer and he or she is among the population where she could continue to do it.

[B]

Yeah, I think there was pressure to act, but I think there's also an equal countervailing force to make sure that you do everything in the right way.

[A]

Yeah. Because we have seen cases go sideways. Investigating hospitals is uniquely tough. As Bruce Sackman explains to me, look.

[C]

Most cops, and I put myself in this position, we didn't become cops because we were good in chemistry and biology, okay? So we're very dependent on the medical professionals. We can't really challenge what they tell us scientifically. We don't understand the hospital rules. What documents do I need a subpoena for? What documents do I need a search warrant? Do I need a court order? Can I get this document? Can I not get that? Oh, this is so confusing.

[A]

With all of these baked in challenges, it's crucial that the investigative team interrogates each and every record. I discussed this with William Welch. How are health care cases investigated, and how was this case investigated?

[B]

I would say we took the following approach. Number one, we treated each body as a crime scene. And that meant we knew that the body would be able to give us all kinds of information, both in terms of what's documented within the medical notes, what's not in the medical notes, and then obviously, what we would learn from the autopsy, I would call that the bones of our case. And then from that, the next phase was really to talk to as many eyewitnesses, percipient witnesses as we could. And that was obviously the three senior registered nurses that came forward. That was the nursing assistant who saw her run out of Stanley Jagadowski's room like Wile E. Coyote. That was, you know, talking to a variety of people who could give us insights into who Kristen Gilbert was and why she may have been doing it. And then I would call the. The final level or layer of our investigation was going out and getting experts to be able to look at the facts that we had developed and then opine as to what they believed had occurred.

[A]

None of the bodies were autopsied right after they died, except for Henry Houdon, after his family insisted on it. As the internal review evolves into a criminal investigation, Kristen's behavior becomes incredibly telling. She is worried and angry as one by one of her friends and colleagues start to distance themselves from her. Her estranged husband Glenn notices the fury.

[C]

There was. There were expressions of anger toward anyone.

[B]

That Kristin saw as cooperating with the investigation.

[A]

What's more, James Peralt reveals that following the alleged incident with her twisted arm.

[B]

She was out of work at that time, but she just laid around the house all day long doing nothing, sometimes not even getting out of bed. When her children would come over. She'd just let them fend for themselves while they were there.

[A]

It's a million miles away from the carefree social butterfly we've seen up until this point. But interestingly, rather than withdrawing completely, she tries to manipulate the situation through James. She convinces him to report back to her on the developments in the investigation.

[B]

She was stating that the whole reason that the deaths were occurring was just due to the time of year being winter, the ages of the patients, and that their physical ailments or their illnesses. And she stated that that would account for the number of deaths up there and the fact that the deaths would go in spurts up there. She would ask me to relay the events of the interviews, what was asked and what I had said, who had been interviewed of the staff by the investigators and what they had said, and to put in a good word for herself.

[A]

We see ample evidence during the investigation of Kristin's manipulative behavior. In an attempt to control the situation and gather information, Kristin bombards her former colleagues with phone calls. She pleads with some nurses to tell investigators that she's a good nurse. To others, she feigns ignorance about where the epinephrine is stored in ward circumstances and plays down the number of codes as being normal. There are calls about whether the families of the deceased patients had or would be filing lawsuits. When one friend speaks to investigators, Glenn Gilbert claims, Kristin reacts with, how could that bitch speak with those people? Nurse Renee Walsh gets phone calls too. At one point, Kristen asks her, you don't think anyone would be stupid enough to tell the investigators that they used to call me the angel of death, do you? The night before James is due to be questioned by investigators, he and Kristen have an argument. Her mental state appears to spiral, and she falls back on a tactic that she'd used as a teenager, threats of self harm. James Peralta.

[B]

She had gone into the bathroom and came back into the bedroom. When I went in there, I found an empty bottle of Tylenol, which I knew to be full earlier to that because I seen her buy it or seen a new bottle in the cabinet. And when I asked her about it, she stated that she didn't know anything about it. And that led me to believe she swallowed the bottle.

[A]

He takes her straight to the er, fearing she has overdosed. She's kept in the hospital until the early hours. But James Peralt still shows up for work the next day, March 6, and is interviewed by investigators. On March 12, just three weeks after Kristen was put on sick leave, she too is summoned for an interview with Special Agent Steve Plant. William Welch tells the story.

[B]

His report back to me was that she sort of took on the mantle of the victim. Like, poor me. How can they be accusing me of these, you know, awful crimes? They're just mad at me because I left my husband, and I'm now seeing James Peralt. All of these patients who are incredibly sick. You know, this is just a consequence of people that are harboring some ill will against me, and the fact that all of these victims had a lot of really debilitating conditions. But he described her as really kind of taking on the mantle of victim and, you know, saw right through it. I think he immediately got a sense that this was not right.

[A]

I would love to have been in that room. I spoke with Steve on the phone. He was saying a lot about, like, you know, just how she was and very similar to what you just described, but not with that kind of, you know, confirmation that she, of course, would see herself as the victim, because that's who she is. Talk to me about the role of James Peralt. When, why, and how did he start cooperating with investigators?

[B]

Well, he cooperated from the beginning, but I think, again, it was an issue of developing some trust with him. I believe that Kristin had so infected his mind in terms of portraying herself as the victim that his initial reaction was to try to protect her, which, of course, is exactly what she wanted to occur.

[A]

But the relationship is no longer moonlight and roses. Gone are the honeymoon days of the autumn before. Now there are fights and anger, and on one occasion, James claims that Kristin.

[B]

Punched me twice in the testicles.

[A]

James makes the mistake of trying to break up with her. Her reaction is to claim that she's taken a bunch of fiorenol pills, an aspirin and codeine combo. But when James insists on taking her to the er, she refuses. Instead, he calls the police and Kristen's estranged husband, Glenn. Glenn Gilbert.

[B]

She was incapacitated on the floor of.

[C]

The kitchen, crying in a sort of.

[B]

A loud, uncontrollable song.

[A]

She went to the parking lot area.

[B]

Of the apartment complex and began kicking the side door of my car.

[A]

She was angered at myself for interfering. The police arrive on the scene, and she is taken to the psychiatric war ward of nearby Holyoke Hospital. There's a lot of evidence pointing to Kristen having borderline personality disorder, potentially along with other issues as well. I speak to forensic psychologist Dr. Katherine Ramsen about the effect a breakup will have on someone like Kristin. Well, you don't get to break up with someone like this, they're the ones who are in charge. So you try to break up. And that's the kind of behavior I see in people with borderline personality disorder is that property damage, the phone calls, the harassment, the constant zeroing in on them with these angry things. But certainly that was a way to show him. I'm surprised she didn't try to get him back into the relationship that she could break it up. Because that's a typical move, too, is come back to me so that I'm the one in charge. That's right. That's right. I mean, I've seen people with a lot fewer mental problems than she has do that because nobody likes to be the one who gets broken up with. William Welch continues the story. So let's talk about Kristin's stay at Holyoke Hospital.

[B]

Yeah, so during the, I would call it the March 96 through the summer of 96 time frame, Kristen Gilbert was put on leave. But during this time, I think she tried to create as much chaos as she possibly could. She did so through articulated threats of self harm. She did it through suicide attempts that I do not believe were real. You know, it was overdosing on aspirin and things of that nature. And I think the whole point of it was to create distractions away from what we were doing, but also to continue to burnish her image as the victim. You know, kind of the woe is me. You know, the forces of the world are bearing down on me and I, they can't survive. So I thought all of it was all made up, number one. But number two, people grew so tired of it, I think they began to really wonder what was really going on. And it actually worked to our benefit, I believe.

[A]

Yeah, she's showing her colors at this point. You know, she thinks that you're going to ignore a bunch of dead bodies because she's crying. And that's not how an investigation works. The heat is now firmly on Kristen Gilbert. And with evidence mounting, cracks are starting to show. The next day, seemingly still hysterical, Kristen makes an extraordinary phone call to James Perold calling from Holyoke Hospital. She says, I did it. I did it.

[B]

I injected those guys.

[A]

Next time on Mind of a Monster. The killer nurse.

[B]

There are three explosive devices in building one. You have two hours. Nothing will compare as to what is going to happen tonight. The probability of this occurring by chance was 1 in 100 million. While he was there, she let the air out of one of his tires where it was parked.

[C]

And then they said, we think that.

[A]

Kristen Gilbert is the most prolific mass murderer on the East Coast. Mind of a Monster the Killer Nurse is produced by Arrow Media, a Fremantle Company for ID. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts and we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. Hey, I'm Paige desorbo and I'm always thinking about underwear. I'm Hannah Burner and I'm also thinking.

[B]

About underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

[A]

I like to call them my granny panties. Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John. Same. They're so light and so comfy and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it. And the bras? Soft, supportive and actually breathable. It. Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas. Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly. Put yourself on to Tommy John. Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com comfort. See site for details. Skip the gym, not the workout.

[B]

With hydro you get a full body.

[A]

Workout in just 20 minutes, hitting 86% of your muscles in one smooth, low impact motion. And now there's the new Hydro arc.

[B]

Hydro's most advanced rower yet.

[A]

ARC introduces hydro metrics tracking your power, endurance and precision every time you row so you can actually see your Progress.

[B]

Go to hydro.com and use Code Row.

[A]

To get $100 off any Hydro rower, including ARC. That's H Y-R-O-W.com Code Row this episode.

[B]

Is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your.

[A]

Home and auto policies.

[B]

Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[C]

ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

[B]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[A]

Are you a fantasy reader looking to cure your book hangover? Then welcome, welcome welcome to the Fantasy Fangirls Podcast. I'm Lexi, older sister and fantasy lore nerd. And I'm Nicole, younger sister and romantic at heart. And we love exploring these stories, worlds and characters well beyond the last page. Fantasy Fangirls is not your typical book. Deep Dive Podcast when we say Deep Dive. We mean deep dive where every episode covers a stretch of chapters and is structured with five segments to easily follow along. We are currently deep diving Quicksilver by Callie Hart, part in the lead up to its highly anticipated sequel, Brimstone. We're so excited. We hope you join us as we travel through the Quicksilver to dive deep into literary and character analysis, theories, lore, themes, and so much more.

[B]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.