S8 Ep.6: 11 Skulls

Summary

Mind of a Monster: The Cross-Country Killer

Episode 6: 11 Skulls

Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Dr. Michelle Ward
Featured:

• Detective Jeff Bell (Anchorage PD)
• Investigative Journalist Josh Hallmark
• Community witnesses, family, and FBI Agent Deb Rose

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Episode Overview

In this searing finale of “The Cross-Country Killer,” the series confronts the chilling legacy of Israel Keyes, whose suicide left both justice and truth frustratingly incomplete. Dr. Michelle Ward and her guests trace the final days and ongoing puzzles around Keyes’s crimes, dive into his last cryptic messages—including the infamous 11 skull drawings—review the continuing search for his victims, and reflect on the deep scars his crimes have left on individuals, families, and entire communities.

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Key Points and Discussion Breakdown

1. Israel Keyes’ Suicide and Its Aftermath

• Keyes’ last days: By late 2012, after months of fruitless interviews, Keyes was being held in Anchorage Jail under suicide watch (04:02).
• The suicide: Despite suicide precautions, Keyes was given a disposable razor and killed himself overnight (04:41).

  “He had carved a whole half dollar size hole in each of his wrists...he was just draining the blood out of his wrists into those pint cartons so that they wouldn’t go on the floor.”
  — Detective Jeff Bell (04:41)

• Investigator and family frustration:

  "It really was, for us as investigators, a terrible thing."
  — Detective Jeff Bell (05:07)

• No full confession or closure: Keyes left a bloodstained note but it lacked actionable information, dashing hopes for the families and law enforcement (05:26).

  “We were hopeful it was a confession… all it was was a bunch of mumbo jumbo.”
  — Detective Jeff Bell (05:46)

• Detective Bell reflects on his last conversation with Keyes, sensing Keyes knew he was about to end his own life and gain the “last laugh” (06:13–06:28).

2. The 11 Skulls and What They Mean

• After Keyes’ death, police find 12 hand-drawn images in his cell: 11 human skulls and a satanic goat head (09:16).
• The lingering question: Do the skulls indicate 11 total victims?

  “Throw out a percentage…less than a dozen. That’s a pretty good percentage.”
  — Israel Keyes, hinting at number of victims (09:41)

• The FBI is left with the daunting task of matching Keyes’s hints to missing persons nationwide.

3. Rooting for More Victims: The Tupper Lake Mystery and Deborah Feldman

• Using rental car records and Keyes’ circumspect admissions, investigators trace him to Tupper Lake, NY, where they believe he disposed of a victim in April 2009 (13:21–14:33).
  • Victim possibly Debra Feldman, missing since April 8, 2009, whose name Keyes searched online (17:46).

  “So in his search bar he actually put the name in Debra Feldman...I felt pretty confident that it was her.”
  — Detective Jeff Bell (17:46)

• Keyes refused to confirm the connection but did not outright deny it, adding to the ambiguity (19:07–19:21).

4. The Unsolved, The Method, and Ongoing Investigations

• Journalist Josh Hallmark discusses the open questions about victim count, noting the FBI and independent researchers frequently revisit leads, with Hallmark himself estimating potential victims as high as 25 (21:26).

  “There are days where I’m like, it could be 50. And there are days where I’m like, it could be 11...seems more likely that there’s closer to 25.”
  — Josh Hallmark (21:26)

• Kill kits: A major revelation comes with the discovery (by civilians, years later) of one of Keyes’s famed “kill kits” in a Louisiana swamp, potentially confirming more hidden evidence (35:43–36:39).

  “So we went back and dug up a bucket with, you know, weapons, condoms, bourbon.”
  — Josh Hallmark (36:09) “We now have a better understanding of how he was remembering where these kits were and what these other 70 maps will represent.”
  — Josh Hallmark (37:03)

5. A Haunting in Texas: The Disappearance of Jimmy Tidwell

• In February 2012, amid suspicious activity during a family visit to Texas (Keyes brief disappearance, bank robbery, arson), James "Jimmy" Tidwell vanishes along Keyes’s travel route.

  “When Jimmy was missing, so was Keyes...His car is found a mile and a half from his house, directly across from an abandoned house...Jimmy worked as a pipe fitter. And he wore construction goggles, a construction helmet. Those things are never found.”
  — Josh Hallmark (28:56)

• Though not officially linked, circumstantial evidence keeps Tidwell’s case prominent in ongoing private and official inquiries.

6. The Toll on Communities and Family

• Native communities: Jim Thompson, relative of Keyes’s ex-girlfriend and a Neah Bay member, speaks to the devastation Keyes’s arrest brought to his already-traumatized community (40:21–42:05).

  “Trauma in our communities is unfortunately very prevalent...We learn about Israel, it’s deeply hurtful...because of the historical trauma and the way it’s handled.”
  — Jim Thompson (40:21)

• The sense of betrayal and violation is profound for those who welcomed Keyes into their homes and lives, not suspecting his double life.

7. Why Keep Investigating? The Importance of Naming and Remembering

• The urge to seek answers persists among journalists and families, partly because law enforcement can't always close the cases.

  “I will never stop investigating Keyes...I do feel a level of accountability…there’s this responsibility to see it all the way through.”
  — Josh Hallmark (39:17)

• The series ends with a call to acknowledge the pain, name the trauma, and honor the victims beyond their association with the killer.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Keyes’s final manipulation:
  “I think that he thinks it’s really funny that he was able to kill himself and make us think he was going to confess.”
  — Detective Jeff Bell (05:46)
• On the meaning (or lack thereof) of the 11 skulls:
  “I think it was his final F you. I’m gonna give you what you think you want, which is 11 skulls. That probably means nothing, but you’re going to spend years trying to figure out what it means.”
  — Josh Hallmark (20:54)
• On the futility of closure:
  “He told us we would never without him, we would never figure out who or where any of his other victims were. He’s right.”
  — Detective Jeff Bell (33:41)
• On the pain left behind:
  “Just like the FBI, Josh is having to deal with unanswered questions and frustrating dead ends…”
  — Dr. Michelle Ward (35:24)

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Memorable Moments & Turning Points

• Keyes’s death (04:41–05:26): The abrupt end to official investigation opportunities.
• 11 skulls found (09:16): The final puzzle Keyes left—still unsolved.
• The “kill kit” discovery (35:43): Proof that physical evidence of Keyes’s planning endures.
• Community pain voiced (40:21): Jim Thompson’s honest, powerful reflection on trauma.
• Responsibility to truth (39:17): Hallmark’s dedication to the cases that remain open and the families that deserve answers.

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Conclusion/Final Thoughts

This episode closes the series on a sober acknowledgment: Israel Keyes’s true legacy is not just in the crimes, but in the devastation he left behind, and the questions that will almost certainly outlive any investigation. Yet, it also lifts up the resilience and purpose of those—like Josh Hallmark and victim families—who persist in the face of uncertainty, seeking to name and honor those who cannot speak for themselves.

“I think the world deserves to know who he was. You know, don’t let him dictate who he was.”
— Jim Thompson (42:36)

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Mind of a Monster: The Cross-Country Killer — Season 8, Episode 6
For more insight, follow the series or explore further reporting and investigation into the life and crimes of Israel Keyes.

Transcript

[Israel Keys]

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[Narrator / Host]

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[Israel Keys]

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[Narrator / Host]

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[Israel Keys]

Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana.

[Narrator / Host]

And it was so easy to.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Too easy.

[Israel Keys]

Think something's up? You tell me.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

They got thousands of options, found a.

[Israel Keys]

Great car at a great price, and.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

It got delivered the next day.

[Israel Keys]

It sounds like Carvana just makes it.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Easy to buy your car, Hank.

[Narrator / Host]

Yeah, you're right.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Case closed.

[Narrator / Host]

Buy your car today. On car. Delivery fees may apply. This podcast explores themes of murder, rape and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer.

[Israel Keys]

I could not believe it.

[Narrator / Host]

I was in total shock. He was a shy introvert type from ID and Arrow Media. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is Mind of a Monster, the Cross country killer. Chapter six, 11 skulls.

[Israel Keys]

I was just on a real adrenaline rush. I had never done anything that brazen before. Once he's in the high is when he loses control. And he screwed up big time with Samantha. That got him arrested because he was just out of his mind. I know longer the investigation goes on, you're going to keep finding things. I'm not going to talk about those things unless I'm going to get what I want.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

The information that we wanted for Israel Keys was who he killed and where. What Israel Keys wanted in return was the death penalty.

[Israel Keys]

I want an execution date. I want this whole thing wrapped up and over with.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And he wanted it within a year, which we all know is impossible.

[Narrator / Host]

October 2012. It's been seven months since the FBI started questioning serial killer Israel Keys about his trail of unsolved murders. And revelations have dried up. Every new interview proves less and less fruitful.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

It's Officer Bell, apd. I'm going on tape.

[Israel Keys]

All right, well, Today you're gonna spice.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

It up for us, right?

[Israel Keys]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host]

All right.

[Israel Keys]

You want to make it a good day? Make. Oh, all right.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Well, let's do the.

[Israel Keys]

We'll do the usual.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

All right. You have the right to remain silent.

[Narrator / Host]

For the next two months. Keyes continues to meet with the FBI, but says nothing more about unsolved murders. December 1, 2012. In the Anchorage jail complex, Keyes gets ready for his 263rd night behind bars. Detective Jeff Bell knows the serial killer's movements better than anyone.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

The Department of Corrections had intercepted a letter that he had written to his family members. It essentially insinuates that he may kill himself, and so he was put on suicide watch. They actually bought him an electric razor because of his suicide potential. And they had a note on his cell door that said, do not give this person a disposable razor.

[Narrator / Host]

But on the night of December 1st, he, Keyes is given a disposable razor for his daily shower.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

I don't know if you know how they do it in jail, but when the men enter the shower, they get given a big disposable single blade. When they leave the shower, they hand it back to the CO who's there who's supposed to inspect it to make sure that the blade is still in it somehow.

[Narrator / Host]

Keys keeps hold of the razor and returns to his cell. December 2, at 5:57am Prison guards find Israel Keys dead in his cell.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He had carved a whole half dollar size hole in each of his wrists. And he had saved his milk cartons from who knows how long, a few days. And he had those lined up on the inside of his bed. And he was essentially just draining the blood out of his wrists into those pint cartons so that they wouldn't go on the floor.

[Narrator / Host]

Not leaving anything to chance, Keys also uses his bed sheet to strangle himself.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

It really was, for us as investigators, a terrible thing and very frustrating and upset with the Department of Corrections at the time.

[Narrator / Host]

He's one of those that I would want somebody watching 24 hours a day because he is so valuable at that point. Investigators are called in to examine Keys's cell, and they find one last message.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

When we rolled him over, we found wadded up in a ball in his hands, two pieces of paper. And so we were hopeful it was a confession and a list of names.

[Narrator / Host]

In order to read Keyes final words, CSI specialists must carefully remove the blood.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And really all it was was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. There are some real things that he talks about in there. The couriers. But because I don't know about the other stories, I can't tell if any of that other mumbo jumbo is about other victims. I think that he thinks it's really funny that he was able to kill himself and make us think he was going to confess.

[Narrator / Host]

Do you remember the last time you spoke with him?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

The last time I transported him back to jail, I said, we'll talk next time. He said, yeah, okay. And he kind of gave me his laugh. He knew that he was not going to be coming back and he got the last laugh.

[Narrator / Host]

The disappointment of the investigators is trumped by that of the families of Keyes 3 victims. There will be no day in court and no sense that justice is done. While Israel Keyes own shattered family is left to try to make sense of what happened and figure out how to get on with the rest of their lives. I wonder if Keyes final act was inspired by the realization that he had no real control over his fate. That his attempts to leverage an early death penalty were destined to fail. Why do you think Israel killed himself?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Well, I believe that he knew he was going to be a spectacle, that he was not going to get his death penalty in the time frame that he wanted. And I think that the type of person he was was not someone who was going to do well in the environment of an isolation cell inside.

[Narrator / Host]

For investigators handling the interviews, Israel Keyes suicide is a catastrophe. There will be no new information on unsolved cases and no more of his secret life will be brought out into the open. Israel Keys, the serial killer, was found dead at the Anchorage Correctional Complex on Sunday morning. Samantha Koenig's father said he was disappointed Keyes won't stand trial for the murder of his 18 year old daughter who Keyes admitted to killing. I'm curious about how this breaking news hit Anchorage residents who knew Keyes. So I asked Jan Alton, who had served him at the hardware store. Samantha didn't get the justice that she deserved. And I hope that when he committed suicide, I hope that it was a long painful death because that's what happened to her.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He put that girl through stuff that.

[Narrator / Host]

No, nobody deserves to go through the pain that she put her daddy through her friends, through her family, her co workers, nobody deserves that. Here's Jim Thompson, who worked with Keys in Neah Bay and is also the cousin of Keyes ex girlfriend Tammy. What was your reaction to that news?

[Israel Keys]

Angry. Just the sense of justice for me was. It made me angry. The attitude he had in his interviews, kind of the Flippant nature of how he talked about the people, his victims. Like what a coward. You know, you, you go through life deceiving everybody. You're close to manipulating people, killing people. And now that you're caught, you're just done. Like you coward.

[Narrator / Host]

The blood soaked suicide note taken from Israel Keyes dead hand offers nothing to the investigation. But the FBI has another mysterious message taken from Keyes's cell prior to his death. 12 pictures hand drawn on paper in his own blood. 11 human skulls and a satanic goat head inside an inverted pentagram. Is this a final hint to the number of victims Keys killed?

[Israel Keys]

Put a figure on it for me. This is between the people right here in this room about other bodies that we want to find. Okay? I don't know. That depends on what you're counting. But throw out a percentage of your smart guy. I already told you, less than a dozen. That's a pretty good percentage.

[Narrator / Host]

During the interviews, Keys hints that the number of his victims is fewer than a dozen. So do the 11 skulls represent 11 victims? He confesses to three. By Samantha Koenig and Bill and Lorraine Currier. But who are the others? The FBI is determined to give names to the predator's anonymous victims. But it's an uphill task. In 2013, the official number of missing persons in the US stands just shy of 628,000. And these are just the cases that are officially recorded. There's no unofficial record of people unfortunate enough to disappear without anyone raising an alarm. Keese claims most of his murders didn't attract attention. But did he let anything slip during the FBI interviews that could lead to the identification of other victims? Investigators dissect the 40 hours of recordings for something they may have missed.

[Israel Keys]

I mean, there are a lot of missing people in those places. I said there aren't any more bodies in Vermont.

[Narrator / Host]

How long does the body.

[Israel Keys]

How long does the body last in the freshwater lake?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

We've always made the assumption that there.

[Israel Keys]

Were two Washington victims. You guys know about Lake Crescent in Washington? And that's the lake.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

That's one of the ways.

[Israel Keys]

I thought there were two bodies in Washington two different times, right? I hit somebody in the head. So is there a struggle and you get them and they died or what did you mean?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Can you give me a state that we could throw out there?

[Israel Keys]

No, I'm not gonna talk about anything.

[Narrator / Host]

We know that Keys struggled to hold back details once he began reliving his murders. But he's remarkably adept at holding onto information that his interviewers so desperately want. And I Imagine this in itself is another pleasure for Keyes. He gets to be in charge and he's enjoying a form of torture, albeit not a physical one. Despite Keys's lack of cooperation, Detective Jeff Bell tells me how close they came to a fourth confession.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

So we, in our interviews with Israel, when we were trying to figure out where he had been, where we could potentially find victims behind the scenes, myself and the other investigators were looking at his phone records, his financial records, and trying to determine where he was. Most likely long enough that he could have killed somebody.

[Narrator / Host]

Right. So you guys are focusing on all of these cross country trips that he's taken.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

We knew when he rented cars, how long he had them and how many miles he put on him. And this is very basic, but what I did was I had a map of the United States on the wall and I would take a, a piece of string and a pen and a marker, and I would put the pen on the airport where he rented the car. And I would take half of the miles that he drove the car, and I would put a line in a circle and I would say, he could have driven this far and still return the car with this many miles on it.

[Narrator / Host]

That's kind of genius. On April 7, 2009, Keys flies to Manchester in New Hampshire, rents a car at the airport and clocks just over a thousand miles.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He told us, admitted to us that there was a victim, ended up in Tupper Lake, New York. There are.

[Israel Keys]

More things I could talk about in New York. I'm not going to give any specifics right now. No, no, just don't, don't give me any specifics. If you tell me there's this many bodies in New York, then I can take that and say we've got something solid. There's one in New York.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And he described that he had taken somebody from one jurisdiction and drove across another jurisdiction and then actually disposed of the remains in yet another jurisdiction in Tupper Lake, New York, along the Racket River.

[Narrator / Host]

Okay.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He had told us that he had buried the person very close to the water because of the, because of the time of year. I believe it was April. And it was the only ground that wasn't frozen that was thought out enough that he could dig. Unfortunately, there had been a bad flood in that area along the Racket river. And so we believe that her remains were washed away.

[Narrator / Host]

Keyes reveals he abducted and killed a woman during a trip east on April 9, 2009, two years before the murders of Bill and Lorraine Currier. Her identity becomes a tug of war between Keyes and the investigators.

[Israel Keys]

You already got me on the couriers as far as New York. I'm not going to give any more information on that or anything else until things move forward the way I would like to see them.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

If you can give us the name of New York.

[Israel Keys]

No, I'm saying that you already have information on New York. You already know stuff happened there. Yeah, I just met the name of the person. I never said I was going to.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Give you anything today.

[Narrator / Host]

Okay. I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay, where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was.

[Israel Keys]

That hologram trading card. One of the rarest. The last one I needed for my set.

[Narrator / Host]

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams. One of a kind. Ebay had it.

[Israel Keys]

And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful.

[Narrator / Host]

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[Israel Keys]

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[Narrator / Host]

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[Israel Keys]

Reggie, I just sold my car online. Let's go, Grandpa.

[Narrator / Host]

Wait, you did? Yep.

[Israel Keys]

On Carvana.

[Narrator / Host]

Just put in the license plate, answered.

[Israel Keys]

A few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame. You don't say. Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Wow.

[Israel Keys]

Way to go. So, about that picture frame.

[Narrator / Host]

Ah, forget about it.

[Israel Keys]

Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Narrator / Host]

Car selling made easy on Carvana.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Pick up.

[Narrator / Host]

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[Detective Jeff Bell]

So in his search bar he actually put the name in Debra Feldman. He didn't spell it correctly, but he put that name in. And there's only one Deborah Feldman on our missing persons.

[Israel Keys]

Listen.

[Narrator / Host]

48 year old Debra Feldman was last seen on April 8, 2009 at her apartment in Hackensack, New Jersey. Not much is known about Debra. She was reported to be a sex worker living a difficult life on the margins of society. A vulnerable woman whose disappearance would attract little media excitement. Sounds like Keyes ideal victim. And her disappearance lines up with his travel history.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

I felt pretty confident that it was her. And when we presented those facts to him with a. We initially started with just a photograph of her and we left the room.

[Narrator / Host]

Left something in the room that I needed to show you. Okay.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

We watched his physical reaction when we left. It was clear that he was reacting to the photo. Went back in the room and I said, you told us if we figured this out you would talk to us about this. And I said we figured this out. Deborah Feldman is somebody that you searched on your computer. And he said I don't want to talk about that right now.

[Israel Keys]

I, I just, I, I don't want.

[Narrator / Host]

To talk about it.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

So I mean, I mean you seem conflicted with the answer. You're saying, you're saying no, but you're kind of, kind of saying yes also.

[Israel Keys]

And so we're no, I never said yes.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

That was not a denial. So to me that was essentially, I know about it, but I'm not going to talk to you right now.

[Narrator / Host]

But the attorney who is leading the interview pushes for an answer.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And he said we need to know right now. Now's the time you need to tell us. And Israel just looked at him and said, well if you need to know about it right now, I don't know anything about it.

[Narrator / Host]

So is Deborah Feldman one of Keyes victims? Jeff Bell is almost certain of it, but members of her family disagree. And with no body recovered, it's almost impossible to reach an agreement on what happened. Officially, she remains a missing person and there have been no further developments in the case. So much of Israel Keyes story remains tantalizingly out of reach. And it's this lingering mystery that keeps people returning. Investigative journalist Josh Hallmark has been looking into Keyes potential murder Victims for nine years and counting. So can you explain your continued fascination with him?

[Israel Keys]

I am one of those people, once I start something and invest myself into it, I have to see it through. It's kind of like when you're at the poker table and you're like, but maybe this next hand will be the one. It feels a little bit like that. Like if I walk away now, what. What thing was like just beyond my reach. Like, what clue, what evidence.

[Narrator / Host]

Do you still unearth information this deep.

[Israel Keys]

Into it all the time. We just received last week 600 new documents in the case.

[Narrator / Host]

Really?

[Israel Keys]

From a few different sources. We're sharing documents and information with the FBI.

[Narrator / Host]

Wow. I asked Josh for his interpretation of the pictures that Keys left behind.

[Israel Keys]

I think it was his final F you. I'm gonna give you what you think you want, which is 11 skulls. That probably means nothing, but you're going to spend years trying to figure out what it means.

[Narrator / Host]

So you don't think these skulls mean anything?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

No.

[Narrator / Host]

Do you think that weird last satanic symbol means anything?

[Israel Keys]

Well, I mean, he said it himself. I quickly learned that Satanism was bullshit.

[Narrator / Host]

So if the skulls mean nothing, how many people do you think he killed?

[Israel Keys]

It changes all the time. There are days where I'm like, It could be 50. And there are days where I'm like, It could be 11. But if you look at his MO and you look at his travel records and you put together all the clues he's given us about victims, it seems more likely that there's closer to 25.

[Narrator / Host]

Josh has a list of potential victims. Missing persons who vanished while Keyes was in the vicinity. On his many long distance trips, he regularly exchanges information with the FBI and his list changes as new information comes in. There is one mysterious trip that Keyes talked about more than any other. And Josh has a likely victim to go with it. It's a mystery that begins with Keyes mother, Heidi. I want to speak to someone who actually knows the reclusive and enigmatic mother with whom Keyes argued throughout his life. FBI agent Deb Rose first met Heidi the day of Keyes arrest. So did you know anything about Heidi Keys before you started driving to her house? No. Knew nothing about Heidi Keys and the conditions under which she lived until we went to her house to talk to her. You don't know if she's going to be that protective mother. You don't know if she's going to be cooperative. You know, you're on guard the whole time because you're coming into someone's home. Who may not want you there. But Heidi, albeit a strange and different way of life to most of us, was a lovely person. Heidi herself was attractive but plain. Her hair was long and up in a. In a style, an updo style. What appeared to be a homemade dress, much like you would see Quaker women wearing. Very conservative way of life. And the daughters were similarly dressed. The men were bearded, dark clothing. The women were very meek and quiet, conservative. And I believe that Heidi had to get permission from the men to. She didn't have a husband, she was widowed. She had to get permission to speak to us. What was her reaction to the news about Israel? She was shocked and appalled that he committed murder. Absolutely shocked and appalled by it, and worried about his soul. She, in so many words, told me that she believed he was lost because of what he had done. Deb Rose continues to visit Heidi Keys throughout the investigation. Over a period of time, she helped build a timeline, decades long timeline, to help identify where he'd been in an effort to help identify other victims. She was very helpful. I'm going back to a visit that Israel keys made on February 13, 2012, a month prior to his sister's wedding and his arrest. It's 12 days since Keyes murdered Samantha Koenig and left her body in his shed. After taking his daughter to Florida for a cruise, he makes a detour to Texas to visit his mom and sisters. What did Heidi tell you about that visit? His mother and his sisters woke up on the morning of the 13th and Israel was gone from the house. And he'd left a note telling them that he had gone to fix the windshield. It's two and a half days before they see him again. She told us, based on text messages and communications with Israel, that he had stuck cotton rental vehicle stuck in the mud and he couldn't get it out. That they. They went to this place where they agreed upon to pick him up. He didn't respond to text messages or phone calls. She and one of her daughters, at least one of her daughters, slept in their van in the parking lot of this mall. And eventually he recontacted them and they brought him home. So he went awol. Did he ever explain where he had been? She did tell me that he was tired, that he had gone without sleep, that he was disheveled when they picked him up, that he seemed confused and distracted, but she had no idea what he had been doing in the days that he was gone. The missing two days are highly suspicious. And when FBI agents pull the records on Keez's Rental car, they discover he had driven a staggering number of miles, nearly 3,000. The question is, did he take another victim in that time? Less than two weeks after killing Samantha.

[Israel Keys]

We got back from vacation and I got got to Texas and I was checking the Alaska news a lot and I just got kind of amped up, I guess, and decided I wanted to go out and do something, like preferably take someone, but.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And so then when you were out in Texas looking at the for something to do, what all did you find to do?

[Israel Keys]

I was looking at a bankster.

[Narrator / Host]

Rob Keys admits to robbing a bank in the small town of Azle.

[Israel Keys]

I was just looking to do something. I was, I was kind of out of control a little bit.

[Narrator / Host]

And he burns down an empty house.

[Israel Keys]

I definitely wasn't planning things through in Texas. I just wasn't.

[Narrator / Host]

But he refuses to admit to killing anybody. When investigators pull footage from the bank robbery, they notice Keys is wearing a disguise. He has a hard hat and appears to have long hair.

[Israel Keys]

And I put I taped hair on the inside of the helmet so people thought I had long hair.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Like costume hair or real hair?

[Israel Keys]

No, it was actually real hair. If we use real hair, where do you buy real hair? You don't have to buy real hair.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

To get real hair.

[Israel Keys]

Hair is free. Everything's free if you take it.

[Narrator / Host]

So who did Keys take this hair from? It's one of the mysteries that has consumed Josh Hallmark.

[Israel Keys]

The thing with Keyes is you have this massive timeline and all these travel records. So the obvious thing to do is like, look for people who disappeared in an area when Keys was there. And that's how Jimmy came on our radar.

[Narrator / Host]

It's February 15, 2012, and at 5:30 in the morning, James Tidwell clocks off from working the night shift. The 58 year old returns to his home in Mount Enterprise, Texas. James works for an electric company and he wears a hard hat like the one Keys wears during the bank heist. He also has long hair. Jimmy never goes back to work. And after two weeks his boss reports him missing.

[Israel Keys]

A lot of things stood out. So when Jimmy was missing, so was Keys. Jimmy lived and disappeared from a stretch of road between Keyes mother's house where he was staying outside of Dallas and his sister's house where he was spending a lot of time in Wells. So it's that same thing of like he's traveling between two points and a crime occurs between them. The other thing we notice is, you know, his car is found a mile and a half from his house, directly across from an abandoned house.

[Narrator / Host]

Well, we know that Keys likes to move his victims cars. He did it with the couriers.

[Israel Keys]

Jimmy worked as a, I believe a pipe fitter. And he wore construction goggles, a construction helmet. And those things are never found. So that to me was like huge red flags. Then years after I first reported on this, I was going through through the list of stuff seized from Keys's Anchorage house. And in it was a pocket knife, a branded pocket knife. I forget the name of the company. So I started looking into this company that branded this pocket knife. And it turns out they work directly with the company that Jimmy Tidwell was employed with, which isn't, you know, 100% surefire deal, but it's suspicious.

[Narrator / Host]

So would it be your presumption that he would have abducted Jimmy Tidwell, raped him and then killed him?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Yeah.

[Narrator / Host]

Perhaps the biggest barrier to reaching a conclusion is that typical characteristic of an Israel Keys crime. There's no body. And while James Tidwell remains a missing person, his family holds out hope. Hope that his disappearance is has nothing to do with the cross country killer.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

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[Israel Keys]

Can I make my site firmer? Can we sleep cooler?

[Narrator / Host]

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[Detective Jeff Bell]

We didn't find out any any more information, and he told us we would never without him, we would never figure out who or where any of his other victims were. He's right.

[Narrator / Host]

Keys wanted to keep his secrets to himself, and he succeeded. Even in his grave, he holds all the cards. The true extent of his crimes remains a mystery, and the lives he took are destined to remain unexplained missing persons with no resolution and no justice. And yet, as the official investigation winds down, other unofficial detectives like Josh Hallmark take the baton. Have people come to you or to the FBI and been like, I am positive that my child, my wife, my son was killed by Israel Keys.

[Israel Keys]

Yeah, I've had family members, I've had local law enforcement come to me. In most cases, we can very quickly rule Keys out. It's kind of heartbreaking where someone will come to the FBI and say, hey, I think Keys are responsible for my loved one's disappearance. And then they look into it and it's like a suicide note was found in their car next to a bridge.

[Narrator / Host]

Oh, that's so sad.

[Israel Keys]

Even if it means Making the serial killer the boogeyman in your life. It's better than not knowing what happened.

[Narrator / Host]

Absolutely. They just want to feel differently than they feel right then. And maybe new information will do it.

[Israel Keys]

Also, like, where I've done the work and said, I think this could be a victim. I've been in close contact with a few families who were like, thank you. Because the police wrote this off as, like, a rogue wave or as a drug overdose. And they never took us seriously, and we never believed in it.

[Narrator / Host]

Just like the FBI, Josh is having to deal with unanswered questions and frustrating dead ends. But when I ask him if he's found any concrete evidence during his investigation, he tells me something extraordinary. In October 2024, 12 years after Keys's suicide, Josh makes a critical discovery.

[Israel Keys]

I mean, we. We just identified a kill kit, the first one ever found since his death. Like, there are.

[Narrator / Host]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Can you tell me what the hell you just said? Tell me again.

[Israel Keys]

Yeah, so we. We helped identify a Keys kill kit.

[Narrator / Host]

Tell me the story and leave nothing out.

[Israel Keys]

So essentially what happened is someone on my team had been going through social media looking for any comment from someone saying they thought they had encountered him.

[Narrator / Host]

Ah, so you need someone who's met Israel Keys.

[Israel Keys]

She found some guy on YouTube who said, oh, yeah, I met this guy in Louisiana in February or March of 2012, right before his arrest. And he was out in this weird, like, swamps village area. He looked very suspicious. And then a few weeks later, he got arrested. This guy hid kill kits everywhere. So we went back and dug up a bucket with, you know, weapons, condoms, bourbon.

[Narrator / Host]

So this guy finds a kill kit in a Louisiana swamp. What does he do with it?

[Israel Keys]

He said he reported it to local police. They didn't seem to take him seriously, and that was the end of it.

[Narrator / Host]

So where does it live now, this kit?

[Israel Keys]

Unfortunately, because this has been over 10 years and local law enforcement didn't take it seriously, that kill kit is in the ether now.

[Narrator / Host]

But Josh takes the information to his contacts at the FBI.

[Israel Keys]

So they said, it's incredible that this is the sighting you found, because we had 70 maps on Keys's computer that were so close up that we couldn't tell where they were in the world. And the one that had writing all over it was of this exact location. And the location where he says that this was buried was marked with a number two on Giza's map. We now have a better understanding of how he was remembering where these kits were and what these other 70 maps will represent. Present. We're very close to identifying two more.

[Narrator / Host]

I admire Josh's energy and I understand the fascination with these caches that Keys hid all over the country, his buried treasure. Even Detective Jeff Bell holds out some optimism when it comes to the kill kits.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He's told us that there is two caches in Port Angeles, hidden caches. One of them held things that are his and one of them holds things that are not his. And my belief is that one of them is essentially a kill kit like the rest of them. And the other one, in my opinion would be his souvenirs from his victims. And so I know we talked to you said that he would take jewelry and those kind of things. What did you do with it?

[Israel Keys]

Usually would bury it.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Is that so that you could, I mean, did you then dig it up later to sell it or just to possess it?

[Israel Keys]

It's just more to have it know where it is.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

If that cache is found without being bulldozed over or buried, could potentially lead us and probably the only, only thing that will ever lead us to additional victims.

[Narrator / Host]

When are we going? Let's go.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

The only thing we have is Port Angeles. We're looking for a Home Depot five gallon bucket, like without any information. That'd be like going to, let's go to Yosemite and look for a needle.

[Narrator / Host]

It appears that reaching any satisfying resolution to the crimes of Israel Keys is impossible. So what is it that keeps Josh Hallmark Mark so motivated?

[Israel Keys]

I will never stop investigating Keys. I've met, you know, the family members of people who could have been his victims. I've met family members of his victims. I've met family members of his. And I do feel a level of like accountability. I think because of that there's this responsibility to see it all the way through.

[Narrator / Host]

There's something reassuring about how Josh's continued research is driven by his intense feelings of empathy and social responsibility. Two qualities entirely lacking in Israel Keyes. Throughout this series we have indulged the voice of this psychopathic serial killer. But I want to end by hearing from one of his victims. And with Keyes, the definition of victim extends way beyond the people he killed. Jim Thompson is a relative of Israel Keyes, ex girlfriend Tammy, and also a member of the indigenous tribe India Bay that accepted Keyes. He offers a different understanding of the dreadful impact of the predators killing spree. When I asked him how his family responded to the news that Keyes is a serial killer, he explained how it opened old wounds.

[Israel Keys]

Trauma in our communities is unfortunately very prevalent.

[Narrator / Host]

Yeah, fret that my dad.

[Israel Keys]

He lived on Vancouver Island. He was taken away from his family when he was five. And for eight years he was at a. At the Alberni Indian Residential School. Right from age of 5 up until he was 13. He suffered horrendous physical and sexual abuse at the residential school he ascent to.

[Narrator / Host]

I've heard it was horrible, those environments.

[Israel Keys]

And it's a hard thing to talk about. You know, your trauma. We learn about Israel, it's. It's deeply hurtful. And because of the historical trauma and the way it's handled, it has been talked about.

[Narrator / Host]

No, it's so personal because he's in your community. You trusted him. You spent all this time with him. He was in your mom's house. And a community that has already been so mistreated and is constantly trying to heal from the generational wounds inflicted by the government. I just can't imagine, on top of that, you layer this villain. Yeah.

[Israel Keys]

Some people are in a different place where they can talk about it. I don't think in the Abbey where my mom is from. I don't think they're there yet.

[Narrator / Host]

I appreciate this perspective a lot. While Jim's story is incredibly specific, it also felt like he was describing a more universal pain. The pain of having been duped, deceived, manipulated, cheated. It's a hurt that must resonate with so many of the people who stumbled into Keyes's orbit. I asked Jim, as someone who's had to process this pain, whether it's important to keep talking about Israel Keyes. Do you think it's important to keep talking about him and about what happened?

[Israel Keys]

I think so. You know, I think. I think the world deserves to know who he was. You know, don't let him dictate who he was.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

That's what he tried to do for.

[Israel Keys]

Months and months in his interviews, he tried to dictate to the world what they saw of him. That's not fair. That's not fair to Samantha Koenig. That's not fair to Bill and Loud and Courier or the unnamed victims that are out there, that we don't know who they are.

[Narrator / Host]

I think it's an important note to end on. It's healthier to name the source of a trauma than to try to bury it. Israel Keys confessed to the murders of Samantha Koenig and Bill and Lorraine Currier. And while their loved ones never sought justice, they do have answers. But there are many more who can't name the source of their pain and never will. The most common question I get asked about serial killers is how much is nature and how much is nurture. Are serial killers born or made that way by their environment? The case of Israel Keyes, the Cross Country Killer, is a terrifying example of how one can fuel the other in an explosive way to create this ruthless predator. Keyes was a psychopath and was most likely born that way, and nothing in his upbringing as extreme as it was made him into that sexually sadistic killer. What it did provide him with were the tools to become incredibly, incredibly efficient. He used his knowledge of the environment to gain an edge over people he preyed upon. He applied the skills he mastered as a child and a young soldier to hunt his victims and hide his crimes. And he learned that he could live out his sadistic fantasies if he practiced his crimes on the fringes of society. Despite the success of his manipulations and the double life he created, the psychopath's need for more became his undoing and his horrific murder spree was halted. My hope is that the victims of Israel Keys, both known and unknown, are remembered for who they were, not just for their connection to the monster who took them from this world. This has been season 8 of Mind of A the Cross Country Killer. I want to pay special tribute to investigative journalist Josh Hallmark, whose dedication to the truth and in depth understanding of this case has given us so much. Thank you, Josh. Mind of a the Cross Country Killer is produced by Aeromedia, a Fremantle company for id. The network executive producer is Meredith Russell, Aeromedia's producer is Ian Clark, editor is Sam Dynamu, audio engineering by Mahoney Audio. Post line producer is Sarah Tucker, production coordinator is Katie Whittington, senior assistant producer is Amelia Gill, senior researcher is Yasmin Bowen. Archive producer is Ryan Hogan. Aeromedia series producer is Linda McCarthy and executive producer is Stuart Pender. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style tips for every home. This is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing. Today's style tip when it comes to making a statement, treat bold patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.

[Israel Keys]

Wayfair Every style, Every home.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

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[Narrator / Host]

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[Detective Jeff Bell]

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[Narrator / Host]

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[Detective Jeff Bell]

Mia's business this is looking sharp. What's your secret for happy pets and happy clients?

[Narrator / Host]

A fresh cut, a friendly vibe and a well placed podcast ad.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

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