Michael Gargiulo (2:24)

nipples was placed over her mouth.

Dr. Michelle Ward (2:27)

Just seven days before her murder, Maria had moved out of the family home. Her marriage to Irving is in trouble with a report of domestic violence. Maria's beautiful, slim, petite, with dark hair and a warm smile, and she's the mother of Irving's four young children. She'd chosen her new home carefully. Arden Way apartments seemed safe and secure. I've tracked down Daniel Nardoni, one of Michael's defense attorneys in his 2019 murder trial. I want to talk to you a little bit about Maria Bruno. Do you remember that particular murder?

Daniel Nardoni (3:00)

I do. That was a little bit more challenging from the defense standpoint, it was a fractured marriage.

Dr. Michelle Ward (3:09)

Despite their problems, Irving and Maria go out together on November 30, night before she's killed.

Daniel Nardoni (3:15)

For whatever reason, Maria and Irving Bruno got together. The evening prior, they went out together for I believe drinking, possibly dinner here in the city of Pasadena. So they got back together for the evening at least, and they get back to the apartment, I believe, around 12:30. And according to the testimony of Irving, they have sex.

Dr. Michelle Ward (3:45)

Irving leaves Maria's apartment at about 2:45am but he's back the next morning to give her a ride to work. He knocks, rings. When he gets no reply, he climbs in through the ground floor kitchen window. What he finds is beyond words.

Daniel Nardoni (4:02)

The attack on her was so vicious, so callous, that it almost was like a personal thing. And I'll tell you why. Both her breasts were cut off. Her implants, breast implants were partially pulled out. The nipple of one of her breasts was cut off and placed in the mouth. Told me this was horrible.

Dr. Michelle Ward (4:28)

There's blood everywhere in the immaculate apartment Maria has just furnished, buying everything brand new on her kitchen floor. There's a three pack of knives still in their plastic packaging.

Daniel Nardoni (4:40)

Detective learns that there was a set of kitchen knives of some sort and one of the knives were missing.

Dr. Michelle Ward (4:49)

The chef's knife is gone. Forensics teams move in and seal off the area, hunting for evidence. Michael's murder of Maria is violent in the extreme, just like Ashley Ellerin's. But he's added this super disturbing mutilation element, focusing on her breasts. I need to unpack this. With forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson. The killing of Maria Bruno. They cut off both of her breasts, tried to remove her implants and put one nipple in her mouth and I think another on her shoulder. What do you make of that?

Dr. Leslie Dobson (5:24)

I, you know, I have thought a lot about it and the timing of was so rageful. I mean, it was so personal. And the cutting of the breasts. Now I was very curious about the cutting of the breasts because a lot of the time implants are sewn in. And I'm wondering if he just did not realize how implants were actually put into the body. You know, some are over the muscle, some are under the muscle. I'm wondering if once he got into that, he couldn't actually quite figure it out. And maybe the implants would have been a trophy. But again, it's this dehumanization of a very feminine part of the body. And then putting the nipple in her mouth is really this representation of like, eat shit.

Dr. Michelle Ward (6:12)

And it's defiling what makes her attractive, what makes her a woman. Yeah. The mutilation in that case is particularly telling and disturbing because it's, it's all the things that make her sexual that he's mad about. And of course we have other sexual organs, but that's not what's on display. What's on display is her physique and her large chest. Why do you think he was looking at his neighbors?

Dr. Leslie Dobson (6:39)

I think there's an element of ease of accessibility. I think there's. He was heavier on the surveillance side. He built that fantasy. He wanted to have the kill very precise, the stimulation moment very small with that window. He needed a lot of information to do what he did. And at the same time, he wanted to be with these people. He wanted to be one of them.

Dr. Michelle Ward (7:11)

Yeah. And I think that comports with my original thought, which was you covet what you see. So he doesn't know who he's going to want or be attracted to next. And of course, the people you're around the most are the people you develop fascinations with. That's even if you're not a stalker. They say just when something's pervasive, like a song, even, you might hear it once and it doesn't do anything to you. But if you're forced to listen to it over and over again, all of a sudden you love it. So there's that element of, you know, he's a little bit lazy, you know, so it's easier to surveil somebody if they're your neighbor. But it's also easier to want them or want that target. Cause you've been exposed. It's ubiquitous at that point.

Dr. Leslie Dobson (7:53)

And that is a very, very scary thing. It kind of lends to. He doesn't necessarily have a type that he doesn't have control over who he begins to have this erotomatic delusional disorder. Obsession with that is scary.

Dr. Michelle Ward (8:14)

When Michael kills Ashley Ellerin, he doesn't leave a trace of DNA, despite the bloody and frenzied attack. But this time with Maria, Michael makes a mistake. Attorney Daniel Nardoni.

Daniel Nardoni (8:27)

So there is a piece of evidence found in the courtyard outside of the apartment of Maria's. And keep in mind, Michael Gargiula lived in the apartment complex. Across the courtyard upstairs, there was a booty. When I say a booty, it's one of those things that sometimes workers will wear, put on their. Their shoes or their feet when they come into your house to do repair work, things of that nature. And that booty contained a droplet of Maria's blood.

Dr. Michelle Ward (9:00)

The booty is sent to the crime lab for analysis. Skin cells are found on the elastic of the booty. But it isn't until 2008, after the attack on Michelle Murphy, that DNA from these Cells in is identified as Michael's. Okay. Pardon? The panting dog. The booty that gets left behind. It shows that Michael's careful in one way. He's using the booty so that he doesn't leave bloody footprints like he did in Ashley Ellerin's house. But then he's also sloppy because he drops it outside of the apartment as he flees. When Maria moves into what she thinks is an ultra secure complex, she doesn't realize she's moving in with a killer.

Daniel Nardoni (9:43)

The apartment that she lived in or moved into. Michael Gargiulo lived there. Maria lived in an apartment on the ground floor. In the center is a courtyard. Michael lived across the courtyard.

Dr. Michelle Ward (9:58)

An aerial shot showing just how close Michael is to Maria is shown to jurors in 2019 by prosecutor Dan Aikman.

Daniel Nardoni (10:06)

That's Ms. Bruno's apartment on the lower level. Across the pool and approximately 100ft away is Mr. Gargulo's residence. From the angle from Mr. Gargiulo's living room, he can look right down and look into Ms. Bruno's apartment.

Dr. Michelle Ward (10:23)

Oh God. Now he's shitting where he eats. Maria only moved in seven days before. So is his killing speeding up or is he just getting sloppy? And he hasn't even lived there very long. Michael only moved into the El Monte Complex in September 2005, a month or so before Maria Bruno. He's already the prime suspect in the 2001 murder of Ashley Ellerin. And he's someone police want to talk to about Trisha Boccaccio's death in 1993. He's being hunted by LAPD homicide detectives, but he. He's disappeared. The police last knew of his whereabouts in 2002, and I found out he became a father in 2003. So what has Michael been doing from 2003 to 2005? And where has he been hiding? True to form, he's seeing and abusing multiple women, using them to evade the police. In 2004, he meets Maria Garola when she responds to a flyer advertising his air con repair business. She's one of 10 women brave enough to testify against Michael during his trial in 2019. She says when she tries to end the relationship after three months, he stalks her and follows her to her kids school. One night, he gets into her bedroom and threatens to kill her. He hits her so hard that the blow detaches her retina. She files a restraining order against him. Maria Grolla bears the scars of her three month relationship with Michael. But she escapes with her life Other women, like Maria Bruno, aren't so lucky. Around 2005, Michael meets 26 year old Yadira Reyes in a children's clothing shop where she works. Yadira is never introduced to Michael's friends or family and she suspects he's married. He's furious when she challenges him about it. Yadira is also called as a prosecution witness. In 2019, she tells the court the relationship ended after six months when he forces her into the back of his van and rapes her. Afterward, he threatens her and her family and she doesn't go to the police. When Michael moves to el Monte in 2005, he's living with girlfriend Grace Kwok. She's five months pregnant with his second child. During secretly recorded conversations with cellmates, he doesn't have anything good to say about Grace.

Michael Gargiulo (13:03)

My daughter's fucking mom, man, has been the biggest nightmare of my life. I think they learned that from birth. I think they learned that before she'd been trying to ruin my life. My ex girlfriend was always threatening me, saying, oh, you threatened to kill my parents with a gun. And she's just lying so she could get full custody.

Dr. Michelle Ward (13:22)

Ironic considering how many women don't report his criminal and controlling behavior because he threatens to harm or kill them and their loved ones. Obviously, Michael's violence and abuse toward women is malignant. I review his relationships with forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson.

Dr. Leslie Dobson (13:39)

They were short lived relationships. And if we're looking at violence risk and psychopathy, longevity of relationships is extre extremely important to the trajectory of recidivism and violence. You know, is someone going to do it again? Well, if they can maintain living with somebody for two years, that significantly reduces their risk of violence.

Dr. Michelle Ward (14:04)

But where does this hate filled attitude toward women come from? Dr. Joan Kaufman is a psychologist who specializes in child neglect and abuse cases. Do you think any of this was learned or an artifact of how he was brought up?

Dr. Joan Kaufman (14:19)

We did not hear anywhere about there being any domestic violence. So what we learned, you learned through multiple ways. But he ultimately made choices. You know, he had free will and chose to act in certain ways. And I think it was a thrill to him.

Dr. Michelle Ward (14:38)

Michael doesn't kill people he's had relationships with with. He's saving that for women he doesn't know, like Maria Bruno. She's beautiful, petite, out of his league. Exactly his type of victim. What do you make of the fact that he only kills these attractive, outgoing women? They're not the type of women he necessarily dates. Did that mean anything to you when you read about that?

Dr. Joan Kaufman (15:02)

You can hypothesize that there was, you know, some kind of jealousy and resentment, feeling like potentially these are the women who wouldn't go out with me. But again, it's total speculation because there's nothing in any of the documents I read where, you know, those sorts of statements came up. But that's what it makes you think when he's specifically targeting young, attractive, outgoing women.

Dr. Michelle Ward (15:32)

And to me, it smacked of what we see in an increasing problem with incel behavior. He was having sex, he was having relationships. He is not a traditional incel. Incel is. It's a made up word to indicate involuntary celibacy. So people who want to date want to have sexual and romantic relationships but are denied. And then it has become this kind of platform for aggression and argument that men are entitled to sexual relationships with attractive women and it's increased the violence. You know, we have killers who attribute their motivation to being that, that they deserve it and they're killing the women who aren't giving it to them. Do you sense any sort of incel behavior with this guy? Because to me, it's like he doesn't care. He's a psychopath, but it's. He's not a clever serial killer. I mean, he gets away with it for a long time. But some of that was just an artifact of the time and limited law enforcement capabilities and other types of bureaucratic red tape. But he is killing where he lives, he's coveting what he sees, and he's leaving a trail of bodies with his zip codes. If you were to put him in a box, what would you classify him as?

Dr. Joan Kaufman (16:49)

I think he's a psychopath, you know.

Dr. Michelle Ward (16:53)

Yeah. Every feature. Every one.

Michelle Wells (16:55)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Michelle Ward (16:56)

Except he's not very charming.

Dr. Joan Kaufman (16:58)

I mean, and I guess, you know what strikes me, you know, we never heard once about any remorse. You know, I have seen youth with bipolar disorder who sometimes when they're manic, do things like that, you know, they're ashamed of afterwards. I had a boy go after his parents with a baseball bat.

Michelle Wells (17:18)

And then what?

Dr. Joan Kaufman (17:18)

He was no longer manic, you know, had such remorse and couldn't believe he had done it. So we have none of that process that we've heard any whiff of is ongoing here.

Dr. Michelle Ward (17:28)

And that's the hallmark of psychopathy. There's no remorse.

Michelle Wells (17:32)

Right, right.

Dr. Joan Kaufman (17:33)

Again, we never got to hear anything from him. But the manner in which he did these killings, you know, these were not these. They use the word instrumental.

Dr. Michelle Ward (17:46)

They are planned.

Dr. Joan Kaufman (17:47)

So they're not an act of passion. It's not like he was with his girlfriend and found out she was cheating and lost his head. This is someone he stalked. This is something he planned. You know, he's also choosing to use a knife, which is very, you know, up close and personal, you know, and in the case of Maria Bruno mutilating her body afterwards, you know, he's being very particular in thinking about the women being found and what they should look like and how there should be a shock effect.

Dr. Michelle Ward (18:16)

It's almost like he hated them. There's almost a rage to the killing. Right.

Dr. Joan Kaufman (18:21)

But he didn't really know them. So, you know, again, so if the hate is. It's, you know, based on some sort of internal process which we're not privy to.

Dr. Michelle Ward (18:31)

Dr. Kaufman's. Correct. We aren't privy to Michael's internal process, but we do know what he says about Mario Bruno, thanks to those secretly recorded conversations. In jail, Michael first says he didn't know Maria and then changes his story.

Michael Gargiulo (18:48)

Yeah, some chick in my building or whatever, they. They said that my unit looked over hers and she was beautiful and this and that. I. I kind of think I know who they're talking about because I. I thought I associated with that person who lived there. So, I mean, I. I have nothing to. Oh, I thought you didn't know her. Yeah, she. She was an acquaintance, man, and something happened to her, whatever. But I've been in her place a few times, spoke to her, carried her along, her laundry, her groceries, and, you know, I've been in her house and, you know, I could explain it. They could say anything they want. They say she was attractive, big busted to me. No attraction to me. I'm not into big chested women. I don't even remember what the person. I never did pay attention to her. I just talked to everyone, man.

Dr. Michelle Ward (19:36)

But the reality is he's been watching Maria since she moved into the apartment in November 2005. Someone spots him. Neighbor Robert Rasmussen testifies at Michael's trial that in the days before her murder, he saw a man shadowing Maria. Prosecutor Dan Aikman, Mr. Rasmussen saw a

Daniel Nardoni (19:56)

man named matching Gargillo's description, wearing a black hat and follow Maria into her apartment. You saw the man back out like this, with his palms up, indicating that he was not welcome in the apartment,

Dr. Michelle Ward (20:12)

just as he had invited himself into Ashley Ellerin's house in Hollywood before killing her in 2001. There are other disturbing parallels with Ashley Ellerin's murder. Michael attacks at night, but he could easily be seen or caught in the act. Maria's apartment is in full view of others in the complex. Forensic examinations reveal Michael didn't sexually assault Maria. Ashley Ellerin and Tricia Boccaccio had not been sexually assaulted either. Maria's body is horribly mutilated. Retired LAPD homicide detective Tom Small, who's leading the hunt for Ashley's killer, thinks Michael was planning a similar act with Ashley.

Daniel Nardoni (20:52)

There was a cut down her right breast underneath the curvature of her breast, like somebody was experimenting with the knife, but hadn't gotten all the way to the point of, you know, disfigurement.

Dr. Michelle Ward (21:07)

As in the Ashley Ellerin case, Michael attacks Maria Bruno just after she's had sex. Could this be a sign of a criminal mastermind deliberately trying to frame another man? After he's murdered his neighbor, Michael takes a very unusual step. Unusual for him, at least. He doesn't disappear this time. He sticks around. And soon after Maria's murder, another woman moves into the complex. What was going on for you around the time that you moved into the apartment complex in El Mani?

Michelle Wells (21:43)

My husband and I had been separated and we had just gotten back together, so we needed a place to live. We'd known of that apartment complex, but it used to be really just hideous. But they had redone everything and it looked brand new. And so we thought, okay, let's take a look. Rent was good, whatever, so we moved in.

Dr. Michelle Ward (22:05)

Michelle Wells is a pretty Brunette in her mid-30s. She's slim and outgoing. In February 2006, she moves into the El Monte complex with her husband and five year old son. She hasn't heard about Maria Bruno's murder just a few months earlier or that detectives are still hunting the killer. Michelle Wells remembers seeing her new neighbor a couple of weeks after she moves in. So when were you lucky enough to meet Michael Gargiulo?

Michelle Wells (22:32)

He was outside. It was a black Volkswagen Jetta. He had, I guess his baby girl in a car seat up on the hood. But he was not bad looking at the time. So I'm pulling up, trying to park and I noticed him noticing me and I thought, oh well, that's nice. I still got it. Whatever. A few days, a week later, his ex girlfriend, Grace Kwak, she said, do you live here? And I said, yeah. And she goes, could you do me a favor? I've got this Thomas guide for those kids that don't know what that is. That's an old, old school map book. And the apartment key. Can I leave it with you and my ex boyfriend? I'm leaving, can he come pick it up? And I Said, sure. Not knowing that I was inviting. So about 11:30 that night, I get a knock on the door, and this is what I'd really like to talk to you about for my own self.

Dr. Michelle Ward (23:26)

Yeah.

Michelle Wells (23:27)

I open the door, and he steps over the threshold. And that freaked me out and did not sit well with me. Because what do you do when you knock on a door? You knock and you back up, you stand back. Well, this dude comes right over the threshold. And all of my common sense was going, whoa, what are you doing? But I let it ride. And then spent close to three hours outside. Yeah. Yeah. With him, it was like 1:30 or so when I got back in the house. Oh. But I don't consider myself a pushover. Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Michelle Ward (24:07)

Because we're horrible with boundaries, and we're trained to trust people. It's not about being a pushover. There's certain expectations that you have when meeting somebody. He's already kind of stepped over it, quite literally over the threshold. But then we are ingrained to not be rude. And that is. You don't know this man is a killer. You just know that he knows somebody who had, you know, given you this thing to give to him.

Michelle Wells (24:36)

What do you do? But I've explained him in that conversation as being. He's the dude where he can smell your dinner burning, he can see your grass flooding, and he's still going to continue to stand there and talk about him. So he's got no. No social cues.

Dr. Michelle Ward (24:53)

Did you sense that that was narcissism or just being unaware?

Michelle Wells (24:58)

Total narcissism. Because in the course of that conversation, he talked about being back in Chicago, and the cops had stopped him for something. Is that you, Gargiulo? Is that you, Gargiulo? We know it's you, Gargiulo. Like, I felt, even then, I felt like this dude really wants me to remember his name. Pain. So I would say narcissism, because I was a bartender in Omani. Okay. So, you know, all you need to know. I'm used to all kinds of people.

Dr. Michelle Ward (25:27)

You become therapists.

Michelle Wells (25:29)

And really, my. My BS monitor was going off all over, you know, he said, I'm an MMA fighter. I. I was an Olympic boxer. But at one point, he says to me, you look like you could take care of yourself. And I said, well, I'd like to think I could. And he gets behind me, and I'm facing my apartment door, and he puts me in a headlock, and he goes, what would you do if I did this? And I Said, I don't know, you know? And then he grabs my opposite arm and puts it behind my back and said, now what would you do?

Dr. Michelle Ward (26:06)

In 1993, Tricia Picaccio's killer twisted her arm behind her back and broke it while stabbing her to death. Michael is due to stand trial for Tricia's murder in Illinois.

Michelle Wells (26:18)

And this is where I say I carry some shame and embarrassment because I don't even remember what I said. And it probably wasn't appropriate for what was like, get your fucking hands off of me. Would have been the thing you would think I would say, but it wasn't. I was just kind of coy, which is not me. I don't know. And.

Dr. Michelle Ward (26:39)

But here's the thing. You're not prepared. You're looking at this with hindsight, and I do this, too. We are not prepared to meet a serial killer. And your. Your brain has a really hard time adjusting to this social mores that you expect in a conversation juxtaposed to. Against this sudden chokehold. You're not going to be the, what the hell are you doing? Because then you are kind of the weirdo. So you're maintaining the social decorum. He's stepping slightly out of it, but you don't know how to read it. And you're not really concerned that you're with a violent criminal. He's your neighbor. So did you kind of like him in the beginning? Affable, friendly neighbor that goes back to the bartender thing.

Michelle Wells (27:22)

He was amusing to me. There was an entertainment factor because he was so full of shit. Everything was so fantastical that you're just like, okay, well, I'm sitting here having my cigarette. Go ahead.

Dr. Michelle Ward (27:33)

There's accountability in being neighbors, right? Can't get away with much. You know where he lives. Were you at all scared after the incident, or did that fear come later?

Michelle Wells (27:45)

No, that came later.

Dr. Michelle Ward (27:55)

Over the next 18 months, Michelle becomes increasingly wary of her weird neighbor. One time he gives her a jump scare, standing right outside the kitchen window, staring at her. Another time, he asks to borrow a pen and follows her, uninvited, into her apartment.

Michelle Wells (28:12)

I go to my junk drawer. I turn around to go back out, and I bump into him because he's right behind me. And my son and my husband are asleep in the bedroom. So it's like 11 or so, and I'm, well, hey, okay, here's your pen. Wow. Herding him, shooing him back out the door.

Dr. Michelle Ward (28:33)

And now, with hindsight, I look at it. He was checking out your apartment. He wanted to Understand the lay of the apartment, Incidentally, that's what he did with Maria Bruno.

Michelle Wells (28:43)

Yeah, it was the exact same. You know, she was seen telling him to get the hell out. She obviously had a lot better boundaries than I did, because from what I heard, she wasn't as soft or polite about it as I was. You know?

Dr. Michelle Ward (28:58)

And not only has he been in your apartment, made it through that. Across that boundary. He had jump. Scared you. He also had tested your strength.

Michelle Wells (29:08)

Mm.

Dr. Michelle Ward (29:08)

That's why he was saying, what if somebody puts you in this chokehold? What would you do? He's testing your strength.

Michelle Wells (29:13)

Yeah.

Dr. Michelle Ward (29:14)

Now, it would be very unwise for him to crap where he eats again. He was just checking, but it's like,

Michelle Wells (29:22)

okay, check, check that I scared you, freaked you out at the window. Check. I made it into your apartment. Check. And I'm sure there was some kind of weird psychological fetish thing there, knowing that Maria's apartment was across the way and he'd already done it. You know, he would say, you and your husband don't fight, do you? I said, no, not really. And he goes, I never hear any yelling or anything. He goes, that's weird.

Dr. Michelle Ward (29:49)

He's watching.

Michelle Wells (29:50)

He was very impressed. And. And. Oh, he just gave me chills.

Dr. Michelle Ward (29:55)

And he's not even close enough.

Michelle Wells (29:57)

See, what an. What an idiot am I? I'm not trying to berate myself, but you just really, seriously rang a bell. I didn't even go there with paying attention, but, yeah, how the hell do you know? Or enough to say. You don't fight with your husband, do you?

Dr. Michelle Ward (30:13)

He's not located close closely enough to know that he's stalking you. He's a predator, and this is predatory behavior. He's watching your habits, your routines, your schedules. That's why he's able to comment on you guys fighting or not fighting, because he's spending time watching you guys walking down there, trying to understand, potentially windows of opportunity. We'll never know. But you do become. You are a more difficult target than Maria was because you don't live alone.

Michelle Wells (30:48)

Right?

Dr. Michelle Ward (30:48)

But he's behaving in a way that I would expect a serial killer to behave. Michael's not stupid enough to kill Michelle, another woman in the same complex, but he is stalking her, toying with her. It's a deeply ingrained pattern of behavior, and he's probably doing it to multiple women all the time. Michelle's got plenty of life experience, yet Michael still manages to manipulate her, and she feels guilty about it to this day.

Michelle Wells (31:17)

I was making dinner, and all Of a sudden, I realized I have no cheese. So I am going to go to 711 on a wing of prayer that they've actually got cheese there. But I'm walking out, and he's sitting at the base of the stairs down from his apartment, and he said, hey, where are you going? And I said, oh, I need cheese. He goes, I got cheese. You need cheese? I said, no, it's okay. And he's like, no, really, I've got cheese. Do you need cheese? I'm like, shit, okay. He goes, come on. So we went up to his apartment, and he hands me the cheese, and he says, oh, before you go. He goes, I just got this mattress. It's the best fucking bed in the world. You've got to see this. It's like a $5,000 mattress. And I said, I'm cooking. I have to go. He goes, no, no, really, you just gotta see it. Fine. There's no bedding on the bed. There's a pair of women's underwear on the floor at the foot of the bed. There was a couple of hangers with a couple of shirts in the closet. Again, that looking back now, I go, oh, this is a dude that was ready to leave if. If he had to leave. So I sit down and he goes, now, oh, you gotta lay. Lay back. I'm like, no, I have to go. I have to go. And this is pathetic. But that's all. I've gotta go. And he goes, lay down on the bed. And it was the way he said it and very important. Quiet. The key had gone to where he's across the door jamb, arm up above his head and feet cross at the bottom. When he told me to lay down, I fell backwards. As soon as my head hit the bed, I sat back up. And as soon as I did that, he moved over to the side. So it was very much a. You did what? I said, now you can leave.

Dr. Michelle Ward (33:11)

That feels really controlling.

Michelle Wells (33:14)

Yeah. And I got up and. And, man, did I feel like I had just done something wrong. Because again, I've got my husband and my son downstairs, and here I am up in this dude's house, laying on his bed. I feel like such a fool for not catching on earlier.

Dr. Michelle Ward (33:35)

Do you know, okay, I'm going to disabuse you of that belief right now. I have been studying serial killers, murderers in general, predatory criminals for 25 years. To this day, Michelle, I can walk out of one of my interviews. I could be on death row, could be in Huntsville, Texas, and I'll be like, oh, he didn't do it. He did. I get duped. To this day, with all of my training and all of my history, there is no way in a million years with what you have told me that I would have thought that I was in the clutches of a predator. Being creepy is not a crime. And it's frankly not that unusual. There's creepy guys everywhere.

Michelle Wells (34:19)

Yeah, but. Okay, so you're the criminal psychologist, and this is a big question I have. And one of the reasons I was like, yeah, I want to do this, if I maybe get a little psychoanalysis or help. What do you do if a serial killer makes you uncomfortable and your instinct is to say, no, you now you've pissed off a serial killer. So now what?

Dr. Michelle Ward (34:43)

Serial killers don't work like that. They're not impulsive. They're not. They. They plan their murders quietly when they're not mad. They're calculated that they don't have. I mean, he could experience rage, of course, but he's not going to chop you up right then and there. That's just not how they operate. So in hindsight, I don't think you did anything that. That's weird. It's a neighbor. But moving forward, you have the benefit of experience being a little bit older. And I use humor. When I'm uncomfortable, I'll be like, hey, no, no, no, really, I'm being serious. Like, I keep it friendly, whatever it is, or my husband will, you know, cause problems. I cannot be in somebody's bedroom. It doesn't matter. You're not going to run into a serial killer ever. But you might run into other men who make you uncomfortable. And I have learned, and I try to teach my daughter that you can use humor to put up a boundary a lot easier than you can use anger, because anger makes you weird. Right. It's interesting to me that he's always there when you need something or because he's watching you. Right. Looking back, do you feel that way, that you could have been one of these victims?

Michelle Wells (35:59)

Yeah. Had I not been married and lived alone. Absolutely. But I wondered that. What? What? Because he had all these girlfriends that he lived with. And we know why, I'm sure, so that nothing was in his name ever. So what makes you a girlfriend? What makes you a rape victim? What makes you someone that gets toyed with? And what makes you the ultimate victim? How do they categorize and what is that about?

Dr. Michelle Ward (36:29)

Well, interestingly, Michelle, there's this misconception that serial killers have an MO that they stick with forever. And it's Just not the case. They tend to be a little sloppy in the beginning, and then they perfect their craft. And then once they're emboldened by not getting caught, they can become a little sloppy again. But more than that, they get bored. So the highs that they seek, whether it's sexual or just the high of the hunt and the kill, that starts to attenuate it. So they'll make. They might change their crime, they might change the method in which they kill. They might not kill at all. They might rape, they might rob a bank. They might change their victim profile. Because the way they get caught is because when they have the same victimology, the same mo and they are somehow connected geographically or otherwise to the victim. But there is this wrong idea that that doesn't change, and it absolutely does. So he can't kill there. Again, you've got a husband. It doesn't mean he's not still preying upon.

Dr. Joan Kaufman (37:41)

Upon you.

Dr. Michelle Ward (37:42)

It's just that he might not know what he's gonna do. And there might be lots of women he's accosted in certain places he's watched from afar and had plans for. But it's. They don't always kill. There could be all sorts of things we don't know about. So we don't have to go as far to say he was going to kill you, but he was definitely behaving in a predatory fashion toward you. Because didn't he talk to you or ask you if you had heard about Maria Bruno?

Michelle Wells (38:14)

Yeah, he did. He says, did you hear what happened to that chick over there? And I said, yeah, I did. And he goes, what do you think about that? I said, it's fucked up. And he goes, well, would you have moved here if you knew about it? And I said, no. Well, why not? And I said, because that. I believe in energy and I believe that this building is just contained. The whole freaking neighborhood is contaminated by that. I don't want to. I wouldn't have moved in.

Dr. Michelle Ward (38:40)

In 2007, two years after Maria's murder, and six years after Ashley Ellerin's stabbing, there's another push to find Maria Bruno's killer. A sketch of a man the police want to question. A guy seen peering into the window of Maria's apartment is published again in the newspaper. There's a sketch.

Michelle Wells (39:00)

So, of course, I ran to the liquor store and I grabbed it. I came home, I was by myself. I open it up and I'm looking at the picture, and that alone didn't do it. And then I started reading the Description? It said 61 to 6. Whatever it was. Mediterranean male. I slammed a paper. Shit. Holy shit. Holy shit. I'm walking around in my apartment. I light a cigarette. Holy shit. I go and I stick the paper in my kitchen drawer and close it. Holy fucking shit. I'm running around going, oh, my God, it's him. It's him. What am I gonna do? I'm, like, this freaked out, shaking.

Dr. Michelle Ward (39:40)

Every interaction you ever had with him is playing through your brain.

Michelle Wells (39:45)

Yes. Yes. So I get in the car because I'm gonna call the police, but I am not gonna call from my apartment. I go to my mom's house. I need to make a phone call. I get on. I don't even tell her what I'm doing. I call the number and I say, I live this building. Have you talked to Michael Gargiula?

Dr. Michelle Ward (40:09)

Nothing happens after Michelle's tip off. She thinks it's because she wouldn't give the police her name and number because Michelle wanted to remain anonymous. There's no record of that call. Michael Gargiulo isn't arrested, and the trail goes cold in the Maria Bruno case. Michael's still living in the complex, although he's around less and less often. That's because he's met someone new, and this one's a keeper. Do you remember your last interaction with him?

Michelle Wells (40:39)

That had to be. Well, that was him coming to show me the ring.

Dr. Michelle Ward (40:43)

It's spring 2007. Not long after Michelle has told the police that she suspects Michael is Maria Bruno's killer.

Michelle Wells (40:50)

He's met his fiance. And again, I think this time I was standing at the doorway smoking a cigarette. He's like, oh, I'm gonna propose to my girlfriend. This the rain. And it was this honkin diamond ring, you know?

Dr. Michelle Ward (41:06)

Michaels stalked and slaughtered two of his neighbors, and this time he stuck around to admire his handiwork and casually terrorize more women. Now it's time to move on to a new wife, a new life, and a new victim. But this time, he won't quite finish the job. Next time on Mind of a the Hollywood Ripper.

Daniel Nardoni (41:34)

He enjoys killing, he enjoys stalking, and he enjoys the moment of the attack. He gets a sexual arousal by plunging a big knife.

Dr. Michelle Ward (41:47)

I didn't look him in the face.

Michelle Wells (41:48)

I was, like, too scared.

Daniel Nardoni (41:49)

The Gargillo case was perhaps one of the most graphic cases I've ever defended. Mr. Kutcher, I could tell he was very nervous when he came to the courtroom.

Dr. Michelle Ward (41:59)

Mind of a Monster the Hollywood Ripper is produced by By Aeromedia, a Fremantle company for id. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.