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- [00:00]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [00:34]
Matt from P1
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- [01:17]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [01:50]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
this podcast explores themes of stalking, violence against women, rape and murder. It includes explicit dialogue. Listener discretion is advised. Please note some of the voices you hear in the series have been performed by actors. Previously on Mind of a Monster the Hollywood Ripper I just always remember feeling like on edge, you know, you never kind of knew what what he was going to do. The jury was shown the photos from her apartment and it was just covered in blood, just everywhere. Over her bedspread, in her hallway where she crawled out of.
- [02:29]
Matt from P1
They were in such shock that eventually the police had to take both of them to the hospital because of their
- [02:34]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
horror at what they had discovered from ID and Aeromedia. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is is Mind of a Monster The Hollywood Ripper Chapter 2 Mike the Furnace Guy. It's August 1993, and the 18 year old sister of one of Michael Gargiulo's best friends has been stabbed to death on her doorstep. The town of Glenview, Illinois goes into collective shock. Trisha Picaccio was one of their brightest stars. Cook County PD cordon off the scene. They begin gathering evidence, but there's precious little left behind by the killer. Detectives find a shoe print near Tricia's body, but it turns out to belong to her dad, Rick. The Picaccio family moves out, and it'll be years before they can face moving back home. Tricia's fingernail clippings are collected for DNA. A forensic examination shows that Tricia has not been sexually assaulted. Small comfort to her distraught family. Detectives interview dozens of people, neighbors, family members, classmates, teachers and friends. Michael Gargiulo isn't friends with Tricia, but he's friends with Doug, her younger brother. And he lives nearby, so Michael is also interviewed. Dr. Leslie Dobson is a clinical and forensic psychologist who has studied Michael's file. Together. Dr. Dobson and I will pry open Michael's mind and motivations throughout the series. If he killed her, he was only 17 at the time. Is that kind of young for a stalker turned killer?
- [04:19]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
Not with his history. I mean, if he genuinely had conduct disorder, there's a lot of anger there. So I think his impulsivity and his rage was starting to peak around that age. In my record review of serial killers and stalkers and rapists, I've seen behaviors as early as 5 years old with the mutilation of animals, with the curiosity of what their organs look like.
- [04:46]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
How about specifically to stalking? Do you see that in their backgrounds?
- [04:49]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
I have seen young, young children become obsessed with people, and oftentimes they don't have the means or the resources or the cognitive ability to stalk. So they become very obsessed with characters, with actresses.
- [05:07]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
That's so fascinating. So some of these stalkers are exhibiting kind of an obsessive tendency in childhood. What do you think of the way that Tricia was killed? What does that tell us about her killer? And I think we can assume it's a he, given the vast majority of murderers in the US Are male.
- [05:26]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
To me, it tells me that there's a higher level of psychopathy present because he needs a hell of a lot of stimulation to meet his needs. He is timing this where he has minutes to get it done and to get out.
- [05:42]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
He's very, very careful when that's an important thing for our audience to understand is that psychopaths generally have low autonomic arousal. They're kind of bored. Their heart rate doesn't go up easily, especially when anticipating fear. They don't really experience anticipatory fear. So they often are sensation seekers. They're looking for a thrill. So not only is the killing thrilling, the stalkings thrilling, but as you mentioned, that window that he has to operate in, that adds to the thrill. He killed her on the steps outside. That is so risky. That is.
- [06:17]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
Can you imagine? You know, he's. He's so confident that she's not going to scream. He's so confident in his ability to brutally murder somebody.
- [06:26]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I mean, it screams of an experienced serial killer, not a 17 year old. So here's what I'm thinking after talking to Leslie Dobson. First of all, we don't know why Trisha's been killed. It could be a robbery gone wrong, could be a jilted boyfriend, a jealous girl, could be a serial killer, but we don't know. We can, however, tell a few things from the crime scene. And I've got to say, this killer is either incredibly lucky or incredibly skilled. There is such a short window in which this crime could have been committed, and it's committed right outside of Trisha's home. Her parents are inside and her brother Doug didn't even go to bed until midnight. And Trisha's killed around 1am Anybody could have woken up. A neighbor could have seen it. So it's tricky. We don't know enough yet. And when it's that intimate of a killing, it does kind of smack of either someone who's experiencing rage or someone who is experiencing thrill seeking. But because we don't know what the motivation is, we can't make those kinds of statements nor draw those kinds of conclusions yet. If Michael was interested in Trisha, he certainly kept it well hidden from everyone. Michael's girlfriend at the time, Allison Mozaffi, says Michael was not romantically interested in Trisha. But who's watching the Watcher? We don't have a lot of evidence of Michael coveting Trisha, stalking Trisha. To me, that means that we just don't have anybody saying it. Nobody was watching. But do you think he probably was stalking her for some time before he actually killed her?
- [08:00]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
Definitely. And he lived so close. You know, he was stalking her probably during school. He was probably building this fantasy in his mind about her. And she did sound like an incredible human being and somebody that he will never, ever be able to date or be. So let's, let's kill her.
- [08:25]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
We're Speculating. Michael Gargiulo has not been convicted of Trisha Picacho's murder. However, he has been charged and in September 2024 was extradited to Illinois. He is currently awaiting trial. Michael tells police that on the night of the murder, Friday 13 August, he was hanging out with his girlfriend, Allison. They picked up Doug Boccaccio and another friend, Jonas. They wanted to see a movie, but it wasn't playing in the theater. So the couple took Doug and Jonas back to the Boccaccios and then they went for a pizza before Allison dropped Michael back at his house between 10 and 10:30pm Years later, when Michael's on trial for the two other murders, Allison would reveal something else that Michael told her. She says that the day after Tricia's murder, Michael seems nervous and tells her he has to get rid of some knives. Trisha's parents, Rick and Diane Picaccio, also notice Michael starts acting out of character. Chicago Sun Times journalist Frank Main has been covering the Boccaccio case for more than 15 years. Tell me about Michael's behavior toward the Picachios after the murder.
- [09:36]
Matt from P1
He didn't really know the parents very well and they were surprised, thought it was weird that he sent flowers to their house after Tricia was killed.
- [09:52]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
He even buys Tricia's dad Rick, a shirt. Is he feeling remorse or is he trying to act innocent? Either way, the Focaccios find it weird. Cook County PD's investigation stalls. No arrests are made. Days turn into weeks, and it's agony for those left behind. People in Glenview wonder why the investigation isn't moving forward. I go back to the call with Michael's teenage friend. The Glenview police, in my opinion, were wildly ill equipped.
- [10:24]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
I don't think they ever thought something
- [10:26]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
like that could ever happen. And I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't have thought it either. A year passes in 1994, when Michael is 18, he finishes his education in a continuation program, which is for kids who are no longer in mainstream school. He's not going to college, unlike most of the neighborhood kids. Journalist Frank Main
- [10:48]
Matt from P1
Most of the kids are upwardly mobile and heading to good universities. Tricia was heading to Purdue University to study engineering, and that's a great engineering. So she was kind of following the path that a lot of kids from that area would follow, which is to either go to one of the Big Ten schools or Ivy League schools.
- [11:11]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
When his parents move 150 miles west to Galena, Michael is left to his own devices, back In Glenview, his relationship with Allison Mozzaffi is on and off. The following summer of 1995, Michael starts dating a 17 year old named Suzanne. He's 19. They date for three months. During that time, he shows her a copy of the Anarchist's Cookbook, which is an illicit guide to bomb making, drug manufacturing and hand to hand combat. It is a beloved read of both extremists and revolutionaries. But that's not all. Suzanne says that after they break up, Michael picks her up one day and takes her back to his house where he handcuffs and rapes her. She doesn't report the rape to police until years later because she's terrified of Michael. He's very scary and has a terrible temper. She says the attack has a profound impact on her life and relationships for years to come. Although Suzanne doesn't report her attack at the time, Michael is on the Glenview police radar. Soon enough, I asked Glenview police for Michael's rap sheet and a few weeks later they email this attachment. Some of the entries are typed and some are handwritten by police and even by Michael. There are details that are redacted with thick black lines, but there's enough here to give me some flavor. So around this time he's mainly involved in small vehicle crime, like stealing from cars. Really small stuff. But a couple of the entries do stand out. One is March of 1996. He's 20 and unemployed and he walks into the Glenview police station to complain that he's being followed by police from multiple agencies. Now that seems kind of paranoid, unless of course you've killed someone. He is arrested and he spends a night in jail because another police force is looking for him because of a vehicle related crime. And then in May 1997, he gets in a fight in the parking lot of Glen Brook City South High. Strange, cuz he's 21. What is he doing hanging out at his old school at 2pm in the afternoon and then punching someone in the face? Here's the thing. According to the police report, he first threatened the man who is not identified. And he says, do you know who I am? I could have you killed. Now that is chilling. Four years after Tricia's death, the Boccaccios finally have the strength to move back home. That's when they get an unexpected visitor. Michael is at the door. Journalist Frank Main.
- [13:53]
Matt from P1
He shows up at their house and asks to come inside and asks if her dad is is there. And I think he actually may have even wound up going inside and sitting in the kitchen and wanted to talk to them. And members of Michael Garzulo's family came to the house and just kind of physically brought it, took him out, away from the house before he was able to say anything. And I think that they found that that was extremely strange. I think that they might have thought that he was about to say something, say what he knew about the killing.
- [14:29]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I find that so fascinating because it opens this door. Was he about to confess? And if he had, what would that have meant for all these other victims?
- [14:41]
Matt from P1
It may not be fair to say, but these killings in Los Angeles wouldn't have happened if he was in prison in Illinois. So, yeah, that was a kind of a pivotal moment in the universe in this case.
- [14:54]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
That to me is such a game changing. Yeah, I love the word you use, pivotal. That's exactly what it is. Forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson agrees.
- [15:06]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
He sat in the kitchen with the parents and the parents felt like he was about to say I murdered her. And then the family rushed in and took him out of the house. So it's like there was almost this moment where he, he could have been saved. These girls could have been saved.
- [15:33]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [16:00]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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- [17:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to handle bill pay processes. Why? Because our tools are built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. We're not just moving money, we're powering financial workflows for half a million customers. That's a level of expertise you just can't fake. Ready to talk with an expert? Visit bill.comproven to get started and grab a $250 gift card as a thank you. Terms and conditions apply. See Offer page for details.
- [17:37]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Hmm. Could Michael be that super rare thing? A serial killer with a conscience? Although studies show that only 2 to 3% of male serial killers turn themselves in, it can happen. And when they do, generally it's because they don't trust themselves and they don't want to do any more harm. So they need some sort of external control because they fear their own actions. But was this really an almost confession, or is he just playing games with the Picachos by twisting the knife and wanting to see their agony up close and personal? I mean, they think he's about to confess because that's how any normal person would interpret this interaction. But Michael's not a normal person, so it's hard to say. And he's never admitted to any of these killings and he denies them. To this day. He's yet to be tried for Trisha Picaccio's murder. The Picaccio's call Cook County PD to tell them what has just happened. But when detectives go looking for Michael, he's nowhere to be found. And that's because almost immediately after this encounter in 1998, Michael moves 2,000 miles away to a new life in Hollywood, California. It's where his older brother lives. Michael's girlfriend from home, Allison Mozaffi, joins him too. Michael and Allison are now engaged. They've been together on and off since they were sophomores. They live in an apartment on North Orchid Avenue, a few blocks from Hollywood Boulevard and the walk of fame. Michael's now 22. He's about 6 foot 2, athletic, with dark, brooding features. And like a lot of young people in Hollywood, he's looking to break into acting. This gives Dr. Leslie Dobson another insight.
- [19:24]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
I would think he peaks a little bit higher on narcissism. He wanted to be famous. He wanted to act. He wanted to have his face out there.
- [19:34]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Ah. So instead of retreating, he's hiding in plain sight. He's signed by an agent and gets a small non speaking role as a boxer. In a student short film. He floors his opponent in a matter of seconds. Until Michael gets his big break, he's working as a bouncer at the Bow, the infamous Rainbow Bar and Grill off Sunset Boulevard where 24 year old Jen Potter is a regular.
- [19:59]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
In the mid-1990s, everybody was very beautiful and daring and adventurous and fun.
- [20:08]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I think people across America, because they've probably heard about the Rainbow, you know, Bar and Grill, it was a hangout for many, many famous people. But it's not what you think when you first step in. It's not the glamour spot that people imagine, is it?
- [20:21]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
No, it's, it's just cool. And the people that walk through there, you have like, Lemmy was always there playing his video games. And Lemmy was the singer for Motorhead. He's the God of metal. There's much, so, so much history in the rainbow from the 80s and, and even before that, John Lennon would hang out there and Alice Cooper, they had the Vampire club up in the, in the attic there. And so there's a lot, a lot of music history there.
- [20:51]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Describe a typical night at the Rainbow Bar.
- [20:54]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
So you go in there and there was steady. He's the doorman, he was always working the door. And then you go in and it's the lights are low and you kind of walk around and look at the tables and if you know people, you join the tables and. And then it begins and the waitress comes over and she'll give you, not give you, but sell you a huge gym beam and ginger ale, enough to swim in. I don't know, I probably shouldn't say this, but sometimes there was more drug dealers than waitresses at the time. I mean, that was the time in the 90s.
- [21:26]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
What do people wear?
- [21:28]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
Well, Saturday nights we wore lingerie, you know, Saturday night we really dressed fun. And then Thursday you kind of just like ripped up jeans and sexy shirts and red lipstick and, you know, you just rock and roll. You look good, you were hot, you were cool, it was fun.
- [21:47]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Jen says by the late 1990s she's partying a lot.
- [21:52]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
I was at the Rainbow four or five nights a week and, and that lifestyle got me. I was high, I was sky high.
- [22:04]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
That's when she encounters the new doorman, Michael.
- [22:08]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
I was like, oh, who's that? He was very nicely built, he was good looking. It's like, okay, he's the New door guy. I've got to say, hey, this is Jed Potter. I'm a regular, you know, I'm that little guy. Tornado. Yeah, that girl. So when I saw him and I approached him, I had never, ever felt that type of energy before. It was cold, it was not friendly, it was not welcoming. He kind of looked at me and then he looked up and above me like he was looking 50ft away.
- [22:43]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Weird.
- [22:45]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
Yeah. And. And I kind of still tried to get in there a little bit, like, hey, would. Trying to be cute, trying to be funny, trying to be warm, loving. That's just who I am. And none of that worked.
- [22:56]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
And wow.
- [22:57]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
And I had goosebumps. And I actually, that resonated with me for a lot after that initial contact. I was like, wow, that was very strange. But I never thought about him being a serial killer. I just thought of him being a dick.
- [23:12]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Were you attracted to him? Did you want to date him or.
- [23:15]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
I wasn't attracted to him at all. But if he was different, if he kind of said, hey, who are you? What's your sign? You know, I might have said, hey, what are you doing later? Meet me for a drink, you know, because he was good looking and. And built nice. And working at the Rainbow Bar in Karel, you know, so he must be cool. You know, I had brief encounters with him because I kind of stayed away from him when I observed him. He was standoffish. He wasn't overly friendly with everybody. I thought about it, and I still think about it to this day, because now, especially finding out he's a serial killer makes me really think about it, because back then I'm like, well, what if he was charming? What if he said, hey, Jen, let me give you a ride home. Hey, Jen. The chances, you know, I might have gone the Jen Potter being wild and wacky and forgiving and having faith in whatever's gonna happen next could have gone
- [24:17]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
left, you know, I mean, that's. It's way too close for comfort. Especially when you find out that he's actually targeting people he sees frequently.
- [24:27]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
Right, exactly.
- [24:28]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
As knowing about him being a serial killer and being in your orbit changed how you feel about your Hollywood days and your partying days.
- [24:38]
Jen Potter (Publicist)
Oh, absolutely. It's scary as to think that back in those days, I mean, dressing in lingerie, going to the Rainbow after you drank half a bottle of bourbon and whatnot, and, and extras, high as a kite, feeling like a brand new spring day, just a little wobbly. Anybody could, you know, it's, it's. The guard is definitely down
- [25:05]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I'm back in my office digesting Jen's story. And here's the thing. We live in a time now where information travels easily and readily. But back in those days, we weren't on our smartphones constantly and we weren't updating our social media accounts. So we didn't necessarily hear about anecdotal murder stories unless we were reading the newspaper or watching the news. This environment is a perfect hunting ground for a predator like Michael Gargiulo. An anonymous, excessive world. And as a bouncer at the place to be, Michael's got power over who gets in and who doesn't. Forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson sees even more reasons for Michael to want a
- [25:47]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
job like that one. He's assessing for potential victims and doing that job, too. He's getting the stimulation. I'm sure he was physically violent as a bouncer as well.
- [25:59]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Spot on. And it isn't long before Michael is allegedly fired from the Rainbow for punching a customer. By 2000, Michael's relationship with fiance Allison Mozaffi has ended. Maybe she finds out he's cheating on her. I'm speculating. I don't know why their relationship ends. But now he's dating vilma Carrillo, a McDonald's cashier he met in an AOL chat room. He tells Vilma that he fled Chicago because the police are trying to frame him for a murder he didn't commit. He's full of tall stories like he studied forensics and came to California to train as an Olympic boxer. What might sound intriguing is that Michael can attract women. Lots of women. But let's remember that most serial killers are charismatic and many are physically attractive. I'll be tracking Michael's many overlapping relationships across this series. As we know, the vast majority of serial killers are psychopaths. And psychopaths don't experience remorse, guilt, or empathy. So why wouldn't they cheat? Michael uses work to meet women. And now that he's not at the Rainbow Room, he finds himself a much less Hollywood type of occupation as an air conditioning repairman. This is how he engineers a meeting with his next target, Ashley Ellerin. At Michael's trial in 2019, prosecutor Dan Aikman introduces Ashley Ellerin, one of the women Michael Gargiulo is accused of murdering.
- [27:28]
Matt from P1
Ashley Ellerin led a glamorous life. A beautiful 22 year old fashion student, she socialized with a young Hollywood crowd. Ashley was very social and outgoing and soon attracted Gargiulo's attention.
- [27:45]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Gargiulo, who lived within a short distance
- [27:48]
Matt from P1
from Ashley's house and frequented the dog park across from her house, injected himself into Ashley's life.
- [27:59]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Ashley is a vibrant blonde 22 year old who moves to Hollywood from Northern California to study fashion. In September 2000, she rents a bungalow near Hollywood Boulevard and she's looking for a housemate. Jim Desisto, another Hollywood newbie, happens to be looking for a place to live and she hears about Ashley through a mutual friend.
- [28:18]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Justin was like, you know, you should come meet her. I think you guys would get along. She's from New Jersey, et cetera, et cetera. So within those next couple of weeks, I went there. Ashley was Ashley, which meant, you know, she had a little bit of like a smart ass attitude, which I appreciate very much. But we kind of had it the same. So we did really kind of hit it off rather quickly. It was nice. I was excited. I was very excited to move to Hollywood to see, you know, what my friendship with her would look like and all that stuff.
- [28:50]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
When you met her, what was your first impression other than her being a little sassy?
- [28:55]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I mean, she was super cute. I mean, she was a beautiful girl and she had definitely like a very great body.
- [29:01]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
And was she one of those people who. She was in a room, you knew she was in a room.
- [29:05]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Very social, 1000% okay. She definitely had like that east coast energy and she, you know, she was very charming, very pretty, very funny, and like a lot of energy and a lot of light to her. So it was a good match.
- [29:20]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
They're both in their early 20s, both moving in glamorous Hollywood adjacent circles. Jen's a publicist for a talent agency.
- [29:29]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I mean, I was 23 years old. I had my own office, I had an assistant. I thought I was in Century City in a high rise with my own office. I thought, I've made it. This is, you know, this is excellent.
- [29:39]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Before Jen moves in, they celebrate the end of 2000 with a group of friends. Tell me more about this New Year's Eve night, you guys. I mean, it's like Bob Seger writes songs about this, right? Hollywood nights, Hollywood Hills.
- [29:52]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I know. I remember us all spending New Year's together. I remember my ex picking us all up. We were like a crew in a Range Rover bopping around in the Hollywood Hills, going to parties and going here, going there. And I just remember us all bopping around like it was almost felt like Muppets. It was like a Muppet car almost. But we were also excited. I mean, I think I was wearing like a beaded Valentino dress. I mean, it was like A whole. Oh, yeah, girl.
- [30:16]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Where did you get the money from? A Valentino dress?
- [30:19]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
We went to Barney's. Remember the Barneys on Wilshire?
- [30:21]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Of course. And what about Ashley?
- [30:24]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I remember her wearing glitter turquoise pants with, like, a short, like, rabbit fur coat. I mean, she, you know, she had it going on, but yeah. So we were all decked out. We were living, like, what appeared to be like, the fancy life.
- [30:37]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Big time.
- [30:37]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
For sure. It was really fun.
- [30:41]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Jen Desisto moves into the house on Pinehurst Road with ashley ellerin in 2001. So you move into this house, it's such an exciting time, but that area that has a lot of unhoused people. There's a lot of partying going on right there. There's a ton of tourists. Tell me about what the house looks like.
- [31:01]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
The neighborhood was definitely not as bad as it is now there. But for sure, it was definitely transient. You're right, you know, you're right off Hollywood Boulevard. But at that point, I. That to me was exciting. So. So, you know, you don't think about all these, like, danger things now. I would. You couldn't catch me. You couldn't pay me enough to live anywhere in that type vicinity.
- [31:23]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
They throw parties. Actors and musicians attend, and the two housemates get to know each other, both new to this intoxicating world.
- [31:32]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I would say we did have a close bond for people that knew each other for a short time, because I think we were also both exposure, experiencing these things simultaneously, having been new there and all these things are flying at you. And we would always talk in the kitchen and talk about different things. Yeah, about the east coast and, you know, she talked a lot about her family, how close they were. Of course, she'd talk about guys, and she had no shortage of guys, whether they were famous or not.
- [32:00]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
One of those guys is actor Ashton Kutcher. He's a rising star at the time, best known for the TV sitcom that 70s show and the movie Dude, Where's My Car?
- [32:10]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
As far as we knew, it was just like a casual situation. I mean, he wasn't certainly the only, you know, person that she was, like, dating.
- [32:19]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
A friend introduces Ashton to Ashley. They hit it off and are planning a date in February 2001. Before that, another guy enters Ashley's orbit. Someone all their friends only know as Mike the furnace guy.
- [32:39]
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Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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- [34:16]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
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- [34:18]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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- [34:30]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
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Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
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Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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- [34:47]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
This is how this all began is that he pretended to stop and fix a flat tire for her.
- [34:51]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
And this guy just shows up and is like, let me help you. Michael Gargiulo comes out of the dog park across from Ashley's house and introduces himself as Mike. They met me in the park. Dog had me look at the AC one time and the car was broke
- [35:11]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
down and I helped him start it. Uh huh. And then we became acquaintances, friends.
- [35:17]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I met the girl, but I never
- [35:20]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
really hung out with her.
- [35:21]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I hung out with the boy, the guy.
- [35:24]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Chris had said at that time that, you know, Michael was like looking her up and down and you know, staring at her. And he got a very strange vibe out the gate.
- [35:33]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
They get chatting and Mike says he fixes air conditioners at that point.
- [35:37]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Then he went from fixing the tire to fixing you Know, the. The heating or whatever. He already said he was doing that. It was always very cold in that house. I don't think he was fixing much.
- [35:48]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Okay. And did you have any interaction with Michael that you remember you personally? No.
- [35:55]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Only seeing him at the dog park. I didn't know that she even really knew him. Maybe she told me in passing about someone fixing the thing, because I was like, it's freezing here all the time. I think she did say in passing someone was name, but I didn't put it together that that was him. But I did notice him at the park.
- [36:10]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
So soon he's in their house fixing the furnace in the basement, and Ashley Ellerin, being friendly, invites him to one of their house parties. Do you think that invitation to the party came from that incident? From. Or did you think Michael and she interacted again after that?
- [36:30]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I think they had interacted again. I don't know the specifics of it. It wasn't something she ever mentioned to me because I don't really think she thought much of it. I think he was disguising himself as, like, you know, just here to help. Maybe he was just meandering around. And she threw out an invite to the party, thinking he won't come and not thinking. I don't think she ever thought anything of it. I don't. I think she just saw it as like if he was, you know, staring at her, eyeing her up and down. Probably most men did. So what's. You know, what's really the difference?
- [36:59]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Michaels identified his target, and now he's in surveillance and planning mode. He engineers that random meeting at the dog park, that helpful offer to fix the air con, giving him a legitimate reason to scope out Ashley's house and then get himself invited to a party. The night of the party in February 2001 is captured with photos on a new digital camera. There's a group shot, beautiful young people laughing into the camera. Ashley's at the front. She's wearing a white tank top and has a white flower pinned in her short blonde hair. Jen is next to her, laughing, wearing red lipstick and yellow tinted glasses. A moment frozen in time. This fun picture will later become crucial evidence in Michael Gargiulo's trial in 2019. Because there, lurking on the edge of the frame, is Mike the furnace guy. Michael Gargiulo is stalking Ashley Ellerin. Within weeks, he will kill her. Detective Tom Small will lead the investigation into Ashley's murder. He worked for LAPD's homicide team, but is now retired.
- [38:09]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
I worked murders for 21 years. I think our high year that I remember was somewhere around almost 1200 murders in the city.
- [38:18]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
I imagine there were several good looking girls floating around these parties, but he seemed fixated on her.
- [38:24]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Yeah, there were a ton. The girls that she hung out with, they're drop dead gorgeous, you know, and I don't understand why he would be so totally just focused on her. She was his target.
- [38:39]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
A few weeks before Ashley's death, her friend Justin spots something strange outside her house in the early hours.
- [38:46]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
He sees a green Chevy pickup with the engine running and the passenger or the driver's window down. The truck is parked adjacent to the dog park and it's pointed right at the house. And he sees a guy in there kind of leaning back. And it was him. It was Mike Gargiula sitting in that truck.
- [39:11]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Oh, boy.
- [39:12]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Watching the house. Didn't even pay attention to Justin. He's just watching that house. Justin, he said he had a hard time sleeping and he kept getting up in the middle of the night looking. And there's. He's there all night. He's seeing Gargiulo in that truck all night long. And he was just unnerved by this. And he even called Ashley, who was out of town at the time. And she indicated to him that, don't worry about it, he's harmless.
- [39:43]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
So he's stalking the house. But she's not even there at that point. Right, but he might not have known that.
- [39:49]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
So now come morning, Justin's up and he looks out the window and he sees the truck go by, does a pass of the house, and that's a one way street, dead end. So now he's got to come back and he makes a second pass going the other way, real slow. Then he goes out of view. So now Justin is relieved. You think, oh, he's gone. Probably 10 minutes later, there's a bang on the door.
- [40:21]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Oh, I'm scared.
- [40:23]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
He opens the door. There stands Mike Gargiulo. And he doesn't say, hi, Justin. He says, where's Ashley? I want to see Ashley. And he opens the door and he walks in and he goes right to the bedrooms. I mean, walks right past Justin. This has really got him freaked. Justin says, she's not here. I don't know where she's at. Well, I need to talk to her. Well, I'll let her know you were here type thing. But you need to go because I got errands to run. And Garjula, that's all he needs is, oh, well, I'll go with you.
- [40:55]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, no. This is so sad. Scary. So he's been up all night watching, waiting for her to return, can't take it anymore. Knocks on the door the next day.
- [41:07]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Exactly. So Justin was kind of freaked by this. And for some reason, Gargiulo puts his foot up on a. A stool or a chair or something and pulls up his pants leg. And Justin spots a knife with a sheath strapped to his ankle. That really freaked him out because there was no reason to do that.
- [41:31]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Wow. Now that Michael's inserted himself into Ashley's life without alarming her, he can gather the information he needs and pick the right moment to strike.
- [41:42]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Ashley had a lot of parties, and she had a circle of friends that, you know mostly by imitation, but everybody knew Ashley had a party. But Gargiulo was not a member of that circle at all, because when she had a party, he seemed to know about it. And people would see this guy outside the house, lurking, sometimes just standing in front of the dog park, looking at the house, watching who goes in and who goes out. Never engage anybody in a conversation. On occasion, he actually came in uninvited. He would just kind of pick a spot in the house, sit down, and all he did was watch Ashley. And if she moved to another location of the house, he would change his position so he could see her. When Ashley moved to another room and was mingling with a bunch of other guys, he took it upon himself to go scout all the rooms. So he got the layout of the whole house. So basically he was getting a schematic, in my opinion.
- [42:53]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Wow. And somehow Michael has a key to Ashley's house.
- [42:59]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Now we know. Actually, he admitted to me he had been in her house six times, he said, but he had been in there a lot more than that.
- [43:08]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
One day in early 2001, Ashley and her friend Monica are in the kitchen chatting. Monica tells Detective Small the story years later.
- [43:18]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
He walked in, the doors were locked. Both doors were locked. It was just Ashley and me in there. And when he got in, he had a key in his hand.
- [43:27]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Oh, my God.
- [43:28]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
And he looked startled. He wasn't expecting two of us sitting there. So I'm. I'm thinking, I bet he was going to kill her then. But he didn't. He didn't know Monica was there.
- [43:40]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
How did Ashley react when he showed up there?
- [43:43]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
She said, how did you get in here? Where'd you get that key? Get the out of here. He split, didn't say another word, but he kept the key. And he ran down the street, and they Just slammed the door behind him. They were really freaked by this.
- [43:56]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Do we know how he acquired a key?
- [43:59]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
Probably in one of his ventures at the house. Because, like I said, he went through the house.
- [44:06]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
We'll see this time and time again with Michael. He does not respect boundaries, and he'll walk into his neighbor's homes like he owns the place. That's often the first thing that alerts people that there's something off about him. Forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson says intrusion is a classic stalking behavior.
- [44:24]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
When we think about risks in stalking, we have to have a bigger picture. We need to be looking at the nature of the overall relationship. Is this somebody who's groomed you? Has he built a comfort zone? Has he moved into your life in some way? Do you feel like you need him? Well, is there a note on your door saying, I am an air conditioner repair man? That's interesting. I actually do need my air conditioner repaired. No, no, no. You throw that note out, you go to Yelp, and you choose somebody who has reviews. In this case with Michael, he was really intruding himself into a group of friends.
- [45:04]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
The least offensive part about Michael is he's a stalker. The worst part is he's a murderer. Most stalkers do not kill, and if they do kill, it's usually a former lover. Michael is, you know, the rare guy who stalked and killed. Let's talk about Ashley Ellerin. Do you think she was out of his league?
- [45:21]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
Definitely. I mean, she was gorgeous. She was going places. She was about to go on a date with somebody who was just rising. Michael wasn't a part of the cool crowd. And we're talking about a super cool crowd at the time, right? Ashton Kutcher. I mean, he wasn't invited in, and that, to me, enraged him even more.
- [45:47]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
On February 21, 2001, Ashley has her date with Ashton Kutcher. He's taking her to the Grammys after party that day. Jen Desisto's up early. She's working at the Grammys, shepherding celebrities on the red carpet. Afterward, exhausted from a long day and night, Jen gets home but realizes she's forgotten her key.
- [46:09]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Her car was there. The lights were on. The street. Gate was open.
- [46:13]
Matt from P1
Mm.
- [46:14]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
So I went to the door, knocked and knocked and knocked.
- [46:17]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
There's no answer. Where's Ashley? There's no sign of her. What Jen and her friends don't know is that Mike the furnace guy has been patiently biting his time over weeks. Planning, watching, waiting. Next time on Mind of a Monster. The Hollywood Ripper.
- [46:41]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
I like went up to her and I touched her and she was like, you know, ice cold. That's when the shock set in.
- [46:48]
Detective Tom Small (Retired LAPD Homicide)
And she had what they refer to as an atlanto occipital dislocation. In simple terms, decapitated. And the thing that occurred to me was whoever did this must be getting off on killing.
- [47:05]
Jen Desisto (Ashley Ellerin's Housemate)
Someone goes into the house and comes out and they say, you know, your roommate is deceased. I felt I was having an out of body experience.
- [47:14]
Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
Mind of a monster. The Hollywood Ripper is produced by Arrow Media, a Fremantle Company for ID. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. AI is transforming customer service. It's real and it works. And with fin, we've built the number one AI agent for customer service. We're seeing lots of cases where it's solving up to 90% of real queries for real businesses.
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Dr. Michelle Ward (Host)
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- [48:47]
Dr. Leslie Dobson (Forensic Psychologist)
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