The Hunt | Ep.4

Summary

Mind of a Monster: The Hollywood Ripper

Episode 4 – The Hunt
Date: March 31, 2026
Host: Dr. Michelle Ward (ID)

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Episode Overview

This gripping episode, “The Hunt,” centers on the painstaking investigation into Michael Gargiulo—the “Hollywood Ripper”—and the toll his crimes took on his victims and the Los Angeles community. Through haunting crime scene analysis, psychological profiling, and a meticulous reconstruction of the investigation, Dr. Michelle Ward and her expert guests illuminate how Gargiulo operated in plain sight, preying on young women and eluding capture for years. With chilling input from detectives, prosecutors, and psychologists, this chapter explores the mind and motives of a methodical serial predator, tracing the path that brought investigators ever closer to naming their suspect.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ashley Ellerin’s Murder: Crime Scene and Forensic Insights

• The Violence:
  • Ashley suffered extreme injury, including near decapitation (02:25).
  • “She had what they refer to as an Atlanto occipital dislocation. In simple terms, decapitated.” (C, 02:25)
  • The crime scene was described as “just covered in blood.” (D, 02:34)
• Posing of the Body:
  • Her body was deliberately positioned in a way to shock and upset, with her index finger pointing between her legs, legs spread, and throat cut. (D, 04:14–04:59)
  • “She was posed…whoever did this wanted her to be seen this way.” (C, 04:34)

2. Killer’s Psychology & Sexual Motivation

• The Trophy Motive:
  • Forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson explains the killer may use the posing as a form of trophy, reliving the kill for ongoing gratification. (F, 05:29–06:46)
  • “Usually posing of bodies is like, I want everyone to see what I'm capable of. Look at my masterpiece. I can't tell you that I'm the murderer, but I want you to love my art. And at the same time, it's a big fuck you to anyone who loved her.” (F, 05:29)
  • “A trophy doesn't have to be physical. That pose where he leaves the women, that's a memory embedded in him.” (F, 05:54)
• Picarism Paraphilia:
  • Sexual satisfaction comes not from assault but from penetration with a knife—“picarism.” (D, 08:05)
  • “He gets off on plunging the knife into the body. And that's where his sexual satisfaction comes from.” (C, 07:33)
• Victim Selection:
  • Although there’s no direct sexual assault, all victims are attractive women, suggesting a distorted sexual compulsion is at play—sexual thrill from violence, not sex itself. (D, 10:42)
  • “For the maximum kick, he must have needed to kill someone he found sexually attractive.” (D, 10:42)

3. Evidence, Forensic Challenges, and Escalation

• Crime Scene Cleanliness:
  • Despite the frenzied attack, Gargiulo leaves no DNA at Ashley’s scene, indicating rapid learning and carefulness (C, 11:46–12:38).
  • “He left nothing.” (C, 12:36)
• Establishing a Timeline:
  • Multiple witnesses reconstructed Ashley’s last hours. Her landlord/lover, Mark Durbin, was initially a prime suspect but was cleared through alibi and lack of forensic evidence. (C/D, 13:19–15:27)
• The Witness Account:
  • A neighbor walking his dog heard screams (at 8:25–8:30pm), suggesting the attack’s timing and the killer’s narrow opportunity window. (C, 14:26)

4. Investigative Breakthroughs & The Stalker

• Searching for “Mike the Furnace Guy”:
  • Gargiulo was originally just known as “Mike the furnace guy,” making identification a challenge at first. He vanished after the murder. (C, 21:49)
  • Eventually, Mark Durbin spotted a man matching Gargiulo’s description, now going by “Tony,” confirming his attempt at evasion was crude and self-delusional. (C/D, 22:13–23:52)
  • “He tried to fake his identity to a person he knows.” (D, 22:56)
• Location, Evasion, and Manipulation:
  • Gargiulo lived 400ft from Ashley; he rarely used his own name, lived off various women, and stayed off the grid. (D/C, 24:12–25:20)
  • “He would sleep in his truck or he would walk the streets at night.” (C, 25:12)

5. Victims and Relationships: Killers, Lovers, and Targets

• Two Types of Women:
  • Gargiulo brands women into two categories: “gorgeous head-turners like Ashley Ellerin, who are out of his league, or less desirable women he can use to stalk and kill.” (D, 27:21)
  • Forensic psychologist Dr. Dobson:
    • “These women he's dating could be cover ups. They could be making him look a little bit more normal while he sets up for the next kill.” (F, 28:31)
• Victim Blending and Cover:
  • Garnering favors, shelter, and cover, Gargiulo uses relationships as part of his survival strategy. (D/F, 29:15)

6. Early Aggression, Neighborhood Reports, and Red Flags

• Violence and Control:
  • Reported incidents of Gargiulo threatening, terrorizing, and physically assaulting women—such as using a stun gun on an old friend, threatening a parking officer, and brandishing knives at neighbors’ children. (D, 29:15–33:18)
  • “This guy, he's manipulating people. He exerts his power over them…He charms them because he needs them to do something, or he stalks them because he's going to kill him.” (C, 26:47)
  • “Oftentimes she'd be getting out of the car and all of a sudden this guy is standing behind her, breathing down her neck. Twice he would say boo and scare the crap out of her.” (C, 31:30)

7. Breakthrough and Multi-State Cooperation

• Investigative Coincidence:
  • In 2002, while LA detectives hunt Gargiulo, Illinois cold case detectives seek a “witness” for the 1993 Picaccio murder—Gargiulo. Both learn their cases are eerily similar. (C/D, 36:47–39:53)
  • “They said, well, he's a witness on this case…We need to get some DNA from him.” (D, 37:11)
• Pattern and Profile:
  • Both victims (Ashley and Tricia) were stabbed multiple times, with evidence of overkill and extraordinary physical force. (C/D, 39:05)

8. Background, Personality, and Early Danger Signs

• History of Violence:
  • Gargiulo’s high school girlfriend and former friends recall his cruelty, violence, and chilling remarks about killing random girls. (C, 41:23–42:42)
  • “He just liked to hurt people…He used to say things like, ‘You see that girl over there walking? I’d like to kill her.’” (C, 41:39)

9. Searches, Evidence (or Lack Thereof), and Psychological Clues

• Sparse Living, Macabre Interests:
  • During a search, detectives find minimal possessions, a "go bag" with a clear mask, stolen revolver, and a collection of gruesome horror dolls—his “art form.” (C, 44:31–45:39)
  • “There was something like 150 to 200 of these ghoulish dolls…Real bloody, gory with knives. Because he was a huge horror movie nut.” (C, 45:18)

10. DNA Testing and Frustrations

• Matching the DNA:
  • DNA from Tricia Picaccio’s 1993 case matched Gargiulo, but no evidence links him to Ashley Ellerin—yet. (D/C, 49:55)
• Ongoing Surveillance and The “Hunt”:
  • Detectives try (and sometimes fail) to keep Gargiulo under surveillance as he continues to move and “hunt.” (C/D, 47:55–49:01)
  • “He's like a polar bear. You're hunting him and he's hunting you right back.” (D, 48:03)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “She had what they refer to as an Atlanto occipital dislocation. In simple terms, decapitated.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [02:25]

• “She was posed…whoever did this wanted her to be seen this way.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [04:34]

• “Usually posing of bodies is like, I want everyone to see what I'm capable of. Look at my masterpiece…At the same time, it's a big fuck you to anyone who loved her.”
  — Dr. Leslie Dobson (F), [05:29]

• “He gets off on plunging the knife into the body. And that's where his sexual satisfaction comes from.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [07:33]

• “He left nothing.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [12:36]

• “He tried to fake his identity to a person he knows…He thinks some frosted tips and a goatee's enough.”
  — Dr. Michelle Ward (D), [22:56]

• “He slept in his truck or he would walk the streets at night.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [25:12]

• “These women he's dating could be cover ups. They could be making him look a little bit more normal while he sets up for the next kill.”
  — Dr. Leslie Dobson (F), [28:31]

• “He would just pick a fight. He'd find a weakling and just go assault them. Because he could.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [41:39]

• “There was something like 150 to 200 of these ghoulish dolls. We had them all stashed and stocked up…That's where he gets inspiration. That's his art form.”
  — Detective Tom Small (C), [45:18]

• “He's like a polar bear. You're hunting him and he's hunting you right back.”
  — Dr. Michelle Ward (D), [48:03]

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:25 | The crime scene: decapitation and scene description by Tom Small | | 04:14 | Intentional body posing; psychological impact discussed | | 05:29 | Forensic psychologist discusses the psychology of posing trophies | | 07:33 | Det. Small on picarism—sexual satisfaction from stabbing | | 10:42 | Dr. Ward on selection of attractive female victims | | 11:46 | Forensic challenge: No DNA left by killer at Ashley’s crime scene | | 13:19 | Timeline: Ashley’s last hours, Durbin’s alibi, and timeline reconstruction| | 21:49 | Search for “Mike the furnace guy”; investigation pivots to Gargiulo | | 22:56 | Gargiulo’s bungled attempt at disguise | | 24:12 | Discovery of just how close Gargiulo lived to Ashley | | 25:12 | Gargiulo’s transient, manipulative lifestyle | | 27:21 | Discussion: Gargiulo’s categories for women | | 31:30 | Reports of stalking, threats, and harassment by Gargiulo | | 36:47 | Illinois detectives connect Picaccio and Gargiulo to LA investigation | | 41:23 | Gargiulo’s violent childhood, attitudes, and warning signs | | 44:31 | Search of apartment uncovers horror memorabilia and a “go bag” | | 47:55 | Surveillance challenges and the “hunter becomes hunted” dynamic | | 49:55 | DNA match in Picaccio case, but lack of evidence for Ashley’s murder | | 50:43 | Gargiulo vanishes as authorities close in |

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Episode Tone and Final Notes

The episode maintains a chilling, methodical, yet empathetic tone—reflecting both the brutality of Gargiulo’s crimes and the emotional cost on detectives and victims' families. This chapter vividly illustrates the intersection of violence, psychological complexity, and investigative perseverance—showing the thin line that allowed a serial killer to hunt for years in LA’s shadows.

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Next Episode Teaser:
The story continues with Gargiulo’s escalating violence, his domestic abuse history, and the growing urgency among investigators to finally bring him to justice.

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For more on this case, listen to the full series of Mind of a Monster: The Hollywood Ripper wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[A]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[B]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[A]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[A]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler Al. He'll be wrong.

[B]

News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy Fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

[D]

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[C]

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[C]

Wish me luck.

[D]

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[C]

Okay, I accepted the offer.

[D]

They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair.

[C]

It's done. The car is gone.

[D]

I'm holding a check anyway.

[C]

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[D]

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[E]

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[D]

This podcast explores themes of violence against women, rape, and murder. It includes explicit dialogue. Listener discretion is advised. Please note some of the voices you hear in the series have been performed by actors. Previously on Mind of a Monster, the Hollywood Ripper. So I go up the stairs, and I open the door, and she is on the landing, covered in blood and blue in the face. From ID and Aeromedia. I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is Mind of a Monster, the Hollywood Ripper. Chapter four, the Hunt.

[C]

She had what they refer to as an Atlanto occipital dislocation. In simple terms, decapitated.

[D]

The jury was Shown the photos from her apartment, and it was just covered in blood. It's 2001. Michael Gargiulo is living in Hollywood. On February 21, beautiful fashion student Ashley Ellerin is stabbed to death just before her date with up and coming actor Ashton Kutcher. Ashley's death hits the headlines. It's sickeningly violent. But there are other disturbing details about the killing which are withheld from the media. LAPD homicide detective Tom Small is leading the hunt for the murder. And could you describe the scene, what injuries there were, and how she was positioned?

[C]

We saw how she was positioned on the floor. It was obvious to us she had been moved. So that the person that did this most likely was hovered over her and finishing her off because he wants, in my view, to see her die and inflict as much harm as he can. And that's what stood out to me.

[D]

Wow. You get so much more information than you think. Like, just hearing you talk about those details, that's fascinating that you can get all of that.

[C]

In between her thighs, there was what looked like rub off blood. So if somebody is covered with blood and you touch a body with your clothing that has blood on it, it's going to rub off on that body.

[D]

And you could tell because of that smear on her thighs that he was hovered over her.

[C]

I wrote it in my notes that way, but I wasn't sure.

[D]

Ashley Ellerin's left hand has been deliberately positioned so that her index finger points down to between her legs. Detective Small, who's now retired, reads that as a signal from the killer designed to cause maximum upset.

[C]

That still shocks me. She was posed, and the person that did this wanted to demonstrate the harm he did to her and highlight her throat and that her legs were spread about 45 degrees. She was posed, and I noted that in my notes, too, that whoever did this was right over the top of her and wanted her to be seen this way.

[D]

The posing of Ashley's body post mortem is incredibly dark. The finger pointing down the leg spread, the neck wound foregrounded. After the killing frenzy is over, Michael takes time to do this, increasing the risk of getting caught. Why is it just a sick joke? A signal to the investigators? The bombastic arrogance of a serial killer. I discussed this with forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson to get her insight to me.

[F]

Usually posing of bodies is like, I want everyone to see what I'm capable of. Look at my masterpiece. I can't tell you that I'm the murderer, but I want you to love my art. And at the Same time, it's a big fuck you to anyone who loved her.

[D]

That's so fascinating.

[F]

It's a trophy. A trophy doesn't have to be physical. Right? That pose where he leaves the women, that's a memory that's embedded in him.

[D]

And it must be important to him because it's a big risk to take.

[F]

When we imagine our trophies, when we think about them, it brings us back to the moment we feel everything we felt right then and there. And this is a guy who can't feel unless he does something like that.

[D]

And that's right. Psychopaths have very blunted emotion. And we talked about the thrill seeking, but that's across the board. Their emotions are blunted. Remorse, guilt and empathy, they just have none of. But the other emotions are blunted too. So he needs to do extreme things to feel, period. Do you think he's getting off sexually from remembering the pose? Does it serve that purpose for him?

[F]

Yes, definitely. I would think he is masturbating to the images of the final poses.

[D]

It's a brilliant way to look at it on your behalf. But it's a brilliant way for a serial killer to elicit what he wants from the viewer. So he got what he wanted out of the kill, and now he's gonna get more. This idea that this is a. It's a trophy, it's, I want credit for this, but you can't know who I am. Brilliant if you're Michael. Utterly repugnant if you're anybody else. Michael violated Ashley in so many ways, except the obvious one. Detective Tom Small. Were you surprised that she hadn't been sexually assaulted?

[C]

Yes and no. Because if it was a serial related case. Virtually every serial murderer has a sexual connection to what he does. But someone that kills like this, maybe. And it was later came to be, as I understood the case, that he gets off on plunging the knife into the body. And that's where his sexual satisfaction comes from. So in a sense, I was not shocked.

[D]

To Detective Tom Small, this looks like the sexual thrill is from penetrating the skin with a knife. People with picarism get off on stabbing things. The knife is the penis. It's rare, but I have come across it in other cases. It's a paraphilic disorder. Extreme and unusual, but not always criminal sexual behavior. Especially if it's practiced on oneself or a consenting adult. Paraphilic disorders are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, urges or behaviors that are distressing or disabling. The focus of paraphilia, children, underwear, knives is usually very Specific and unchanging. The fact that Michael Gargiulo didn't sexually assault Ashley Ellerin could fit with this theory. Because someone with picarism gets sexual satisfaction from the knife penetration and replaying the incident in his head over and over again so he wouldn't have needed to sexually assault her. Overkill. Using more violence than necessary to kill someone can also be part of it. The more the knife goes in, the bigger the thrill. It's worth noting that Tricia Picaccio, the 18 year old stabbed to death outside her home in Glenview in 1993, was not sexually assaulted either. Although remember, Michael has yet to stand trial for her murder. And Michael didn't sexually assault Michelle Murphy when he tried to kill her in 2008. Psychologist Leslie Dobson. I was going to ask you what you make of the fact that he doesn't sexually assault these women. And if it is true that he feels rejected by them, wants them sexually, has some sort of sexual arousal associated with them, what do you make of him not having sex with them when he's got them?

[F]

Well, I don't think he's necessarily aroused by the women. I think he's aroused by the kill.

[D]

So we do see that, right? With a lot of serial killers we'll see some who actually experience orgasm from the killing itself and they don't sexually violate. It's a form of paraphilia, right? They're sexually aroused by something that's not considered sexual. There's some thought in this case that there was picarism involved, getting sexual pleasure from the knife, going in and out. Do you have any thoughts about that?

[F]

I don't necessarily know where that would have come from, but he does have a fetish of breaking skin. There is a paraphilic disorder involved where he is gaining pleasure and stimulation from cutting these women.

[D]

I'm sitting here on the stoop watching the rain on this drizzly day and thinking about Michael Gargiulo and his weird behavior. This is sick and it is weird, but it's also confusing if you look at it rationally. If Michael isn't getting his sexual arousal from assaulting his victims sexually, but instead from the knife penetration, then why does he only pick women to kill who are attractive? Surely any body should do in thinking through this. For the maximum kick, he must have needed to kill someone he found sexually attractive, even if he doesn't sexually assault them. Or maybe it's someone who he perceived in his twisted way, had rejected him somehow. This just adds another layer to this really deviant mind. His Mind is messed up. His killings are messy, but as we know, his crime scenes are not. Apart from partial bloody shoe prints, Michael doesn't leave any forensic information at the scene of Ashley Ellerent's murder. Were you surprised that the killer didn't leave any DNA behind?

[C]

I was shocked because there was so much blood and this attack was so vicious. And when I'm looking, I'm seeing all the walls surrounding her and the doors of the closet, the carpeting and the hardwood flooring going out. I thought this guy had to have cut himself. And I insisted with the criminalist. I said, I want every single area of blood checked. And it all came back to Ashley. And then she had. She had hair entwined in her fingers, and there was some on the floor, and I thought, well, chances are it's gonna be hers, but we'll check it. And it all came back to her.

[D]

He left nothing.

[C]

Nothing.

[D]

Michael is only 25 when he kills Ashley, and he's already learned how to cover his tracks. Even at such a chaotic scene. How did he become such a proficient killing machine? Detective Tom Small establishes a timeline of Ashley Ellerin's movements that evening. It shows her killer had a very narrow window of opportunity. At 5pm on February 21, 2001, Ashley drops her dad, Michael, off at the airport. He'd been helping Ashley decorate the house. She drives home, and at 7pm, Mark Durbin comes around. Ashley had told her housemate, Jen Desisto, about Mark the night before. Tell us about Mark Durbin.

[C]

Mark Durbin was the landlord for Ashley's bungalow. During the course of so many visits, they had a little romantic interlude. And he freely admitted that to us on the night she was killed.

[D]

So Mark and Ashley had sex that night she was killed?

[C]

Yes, they did.

[D]

Mark leaves around 8:15pm he needs to get back to his girlfriend, and Ashley has to get ready for her date with Ashton Kutcher. Was Ashton Kutcher ever a suspect for you?

[C]

Well, we had to look at him initially because he. He was supposed to go over there and pick her up around 8 o', clock, but that got delayed. He left a message for Ashley saying that he was going to. He was running late. Would she mind if he came later? And I was able to determine that that was true. I could see when he called, when he left a message, and then I could tell on her cell records she returned his call and spoke to him. And that was at 8:24 exactly.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

And I believe she was probably dead within six minutes of that call. We had a witness that was walking his dog between 8:25 and 8:30 in the evening on that night. And he was just about to enter the dog park and he heard a shrill scream very quickly. And his dog heard it and stopped dead and looked right at the house. And he turned and he looked and he didn't see anything. He saw the house and he saw the house was all lit up, but he didn't see any people there. And then he heard a second scream and that was it. And the dog was so agitated by that second scream that it freaked him out. He never even went into the park and his dog would not come off the house. He wanted to get out of there. He said, I don't know what's going on, but we're leaving.

[D]

So he probably missed the killer coming out by minutes.

[C]

He probably came out right behind him.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

Gosh.

[D]

Do you think Michael Okargula was listening to that conversation between Ashley and Ashton?

[C]

He may have been in there. Sure. He may have slipped in there. He might have even been in there when Mark Durbin was in there.

[D]

Mom, I saw Dylan's dad make dinner, like actually cook.

[F]

And it was straight fire. It was Blue Apron assemble and Bake.

[D]

All the ingredients showed up pre chopped

[F]

and he just laid it out on a baking sheet and no cap. Dinner was on the table in like 25 minutes. Apparently it's chef designed and it has like over 40 grams of protein. That's a lot, right? So maybe we try it.

[D]

Just saying. You can be the next Dylan's dad.

[F]

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[D]

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[A]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fanfellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[B]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the smash Daddy.

[A]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

Hey. So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[A]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[B]

News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find fantasy fan fellows wherever you get your podcasts.

[F]

Mom, can you tell me a story?

[D]

Sure. Once upon a Time a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired, mostly. But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required.

[F]

Did you have to fight a dragon?

[D]

Nope. She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually.

[F]

Was it scary?

[D]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be.

[F]

Did the car have a sunroof?

[D]

It did, actually.

[F]

Okay, good story.

[D]

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[G]

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[D]

We'll never know exactly when Michael got into Ashley's house, but he must have been watching the comings and goings, a pattern that links Michael's crimes. According to co prosecutor Garrett Dameron, during Michael's trial in 2019, Da Dameron draws the jury's attention to the locations of each attack. These are congested, busy residential areas.

[B]

Windows that can be looked upon by neighbors, passerbys.

[D]

This provided Gargiulo with the ability to

[B]

learn and study the comings and goings of neighbors.

[D]

And to learn about routes of entry,

[B]

ways to get away, places to hide.

[D]

To me, that confirms he's a stalker and someone toying with the thrill of getting caught. Anyone could have walked in on that murder. Mark Durbin could have come back. Ashton Kutcher could have arrived early. Jen Desisto could have had her keys and let herself in. Plus, it fits in with my research about the Tricia Picacho murder in Glenview in 1993. Remember how she was attacked on the doorstep of her home, feet from where her family was? Again, A high risk of discovery and added excitement. Mark Durbin is Michael Gargiulo's perfect fall guy. He's cheating on his girlfriend with Ashley, and he's the last person to see Ashley alive. So you've got this guy. He'd been there that night. They'd had sex that they weren't supposed to have. Since he's in a relationship, Mark must have been a suspect for you then.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I had him in the hot seat for quite a while. And we actually did a search warrant on his place of residence, his car, and we searched everything, and not a single thing was out of line. He has no shoes whatsoever that match remotely those prints.

[D]

Okay, so he's kind of coming off your list a bit, because it just doesn't seem like he has any connection to the actual crime. Then Detective Small has the long list of usual suspects to work through. I remember the area well back in the day. It wasn't. I knew it wasn't safe. I didn't realize how unsafe it actually was. I didn't realize that there were parole houses.

[C]

I struck out with the parolees, burglaries, all that stuff. Sex offenders. There's a lot of sex offenders in that area, too. Their thing is mostly rape and sexual assault. They're not necessarily killers. Some could be, but I was looking for a specific type. Plus, it had to be somebody strong and somebody that might have had a connection to her place, because, like I say, it was Fort Knox, even. The back door was bolted with a steel door, and the inside door was bolted.

[D]

After exhausting all other lines of inquiry, about a year after Ashley's murder, Detective Small turns his full attention to Ashley's stalker, the man her friends call Mike the furnace guy. You need to talk to him next. But it was difficult to find him, right?

[C]

We didn't know who he was. All we knew was Mike the furnace guy. That's all we had. After the murder, Gargiula was not seen again. He just fell off the face of the earth. Nobody knew what he drove, where he lived, what his last name was. Nothing. Nobody knows this guy until a few

[D]

months later, when Mark Durbin has a strange encounter near Ashley's old house.

[C]

So Durbin sees a guy that he believes is Mike Gargiula, and he's parking a white paneled van down the block. And this guy has spiked hair, frosted tips, he's got a goatee. But Durbin is, you know, he. He can recognize people. He says, hey, Mike, how are you?

[D]

Oh, that must have freaked him Out.

[C]

And he said, this guy turned kind of surprised and looked at him, and he said, hey, Mike, you know, he made a couple of attempts, and he was walking up to him, he said, I'm not Mike. My name's Tony. I'm Tony.

[D]

He tried to fake his identity to a person he knows. He thinks some frosted tips and a goatee's enough. This guy's not the brightest. Isn't it fascinating? Right there. We got to see how Gargiulo thinks he's smarter than everyone. It's a grandiosity, like, oh, well, I can just disguise myself. And it's that frustrating sense of self, that inflated ego, that often is the undoing of a psychopath. But I find it so comical that he's running around in the same area with a little bit of bleach and facial hair and thinks he's, you know, under witness protection program. Give me a break.

[C]

It wasn't long after that, he disappeared again. That was the only time he'd been seen since the murder. And now nobody knows where he's at, and they still don't know his last name.

[D]

By October 2002, Detective Small finds out Mike's full name, Michael Thomas Gargiulo, and his address. He's one of Ashley's neighbors, living in an apartment about 400ft away. He's now the prime suspect in Ashley Ellerin's murder. And how close did he live to her?

[C]

A block. 400ft. We measured it. About 400ft. Wow.

[D]

What was his living situation?

[C]

He lived on a first floor apartment in a four story brick complex. In a rather bare apartment.

[D]

Bare but near. During Michael's trial in 2019, the jury is shown a plan of the neighborhood by prosecutor Dan Aikman.

[C]

So if you go to the top of this building, which is open to

[D]

all the tenants, there's a stairway that goes up, and you look across, you

[C]

can see Ms. Ellern's bedroom happens to

[D]

be on that side of the house.

[C]

But he got tossed out. He was evicted because he never paid his bills.

[D]

I learned that Michael is a lot harder to find than any of us would be. He's grooming a string of women who let him stay at their homes and drive their vehicles. Nothing is registered in his name.

[C]

He rarely spent time in any apartment he was in. He would sleep in his truck or he would walk the streets at night.

[D]

How was he funding his lifestyle through all these women?

[C]

Occasionally, he would get a job. He never held the job very long. And he worked for various companies, and he always had Issues. A couple of these job sites, I went to and I spoke with employees and employers, and they said, this guy's a freak. And he freaks all the ladies out. We're gonna fire him unless he leaves. And he generally leaves. He never stays long.

[D]

The detective traces Michael through a truck he's been driving. It's registered to an address in Diamond Bar, far east of la.

[C]

So then we go to Diamond Bar, and there sits the truck right on the driveway. After we spot the truck, I see an older gentleman walking toward the house, and I stop him and ask him, okay, hey, is this. Is this your truck? He says, no, that's my daughter's truck. I said, do you. Does she have a boyfriend? And he says, well, there's. There's a gentleman that she sees. His name is Mike Gargiulo. And I said, well, does he live here? And he says, well, he doesn't really live here, but he gets his mail here.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

And sometimes, you know, he comes around. We don't see him that often, but a lot of times he'll take the truck and drive it around. She's older than Gargiulo, and they met on a chat room deal.

[D]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

And not really his type. And there wouldn't be somebody that he would focus on to target. It'd be somebody that he would focus on to do things for him. You know, this guy, he's. He's manipulating people. He exerts his power over them, and he either charms them because he needs them to do something, or he stalks them because he's going to kill him. They don't call him the Ripper for nothing.

[D]

Michael is dubbed the Hollywood Ripper in the media during his trial because of the extreme violence he inflicted on his victims in la. Named after Jack the Ripper, the unidentified serial killer who murdered and mutilated at least five women in London in 1888. The word ripper signifies a killer who dissects or mutilates his victims, almost always women. What Detective Tom Small is telling me is that in Michael's mind, women fit into one of two types of gorgeous head turners like Ashley Ellerin, who are out of his league or less desirable women he can use to stalk and kill. The first type, forensic psychologist Dr. Leslie Dobson. I want to talk about the difference between the women he kills and the women he dates. He does not kill these people he interacts with. He kills virtual strangers. The profile of the women he dates is different than the people he kills. He's killing the women he can't Get. That's not to say his other girlfriends weren't attractive. They were, but it's a different type of woman. Do you have an opinion on why that is?

[F]

I mean, these women he's dating could be cover ups. They could be making him look a little bit more normal while he sets up for the next kill. They could be helping him in some way. You know, he is having sex, he's getting nurtured, he's getting mothered by these women. Although he's gone a lot. You know, he's, he's taking his little adventures, but again, he doesn't have the capacity to have a meaningful connection with another human being. So they have to be a part of strategy. And he may have other homes. Right. He may have other points of comfort that allow him to stabilize and then stalk and kill and then return back to these short term relationships.

[D]

Yeah. And I think it makes sense that the women he's choosing to spend time with give him various places to hide from the police. Right. Because he's bouncing around quite a bit. And we see that a lot in killers. Right. I mean, it's a smart thing to do. First of all, it gives them a new hunting ground, but it also helps them evade capture. And this guy, he was able to evade capture for a really long time. He's not a sloppy killer. So it would be remiss of us to not give him credit for these strategies. But it seems that virtually all women are fair game in Michael's mind. Going through the court transcripts, I learn about three women who testify in 2019 about Michael's unpredictable and terrifying behavior. All three experienced this in 2001, the year Michael kills Ashley Ellerin. There's Teresa Cordero. She's a parking officer he has a run in with off Hollywood Boulevard. She just happens to be there when he discovers his car has been towed. I mean, relatable, but this is off the scale. At first he's calm, but then he blows up, threatening to shoot the fuckers who had taken his vehicle and shouting, you fucking bitch, I'm going to get you. As she rushes back to the safety of her car. She's terrified, but manages to escape. Then there's Dorothy Haas, an old friend Michael's kept in touch with from his bouncer days at the Rainbow. One day he turns up at her flat. He's upset over getting evicted and he's worried about what he's going to do with his dog. Dorothy can't help because she has cats. Out of nowhere, he pulls out a stun gun and shoots Dorothy with it. Twice. She screams and crawls out of the apartment. She is shocked but not injured, and a neighbor calls the police. Later he leaves her a message. He says that it was an accident, she's crazy and a fucking bitch for calling the police. If the police want to pursue this incident, they won't be able to locate Michael because he's been evicted and in 2001 moves into an apartment on Clark Drive in West LA. His neighbor is a woman in her 40s with a teenage daughter. She's the third, Detective Tom Small.

[C]

She was a real estate agent and she would come home sometimes late at night from outings with clients. And she parked in a subterranean parking off an alley where she lived. And oftentimes she'd be getting out of the car and all of a sudden this guy is standing behind her, breathing down her neck. Twice he would say boo and scare the crap out of her.

[D]

That's so bad.

[C]

I don't know if he had designs on her to hunt her because she was a very attractive lady. He went to their apartment and the little girl was home and answered the door. And Mike says, how come your mom doesn't like me?

[D]

He knocks on their door when her 17 year old daughter is home alone.

[C]

And the daughter was taken back because she's heard all about Gargiulo and scared to death of him. And he says, by the way, do you always answer the door for strangers? And she says, no, but I've seen you. I know you live here. And he says, well, what would happen if somebody just went off on you or tried to get into your apartment? And he pulls out a knife.

[D]

Oh, no.

[C]

He says, what would you do if somebody had a weapon like this?

[D]

Oh my God.

[C]

And all of a sudden he holds a knife up to her throat. He says, now what would you do? And she was just totally beside herself. And it was a rear area apartment. Nobody is seeing this. But now the phone rings and she says, that's my mom. She's calling. I gotta answer that. So he withdraws a knife and he leaves.

[D]

He's terrifying. So Michael's butchered one of his neighbors and is doing his best to evade the police. But yet here he is, playing with fire, seeing what he can get away with by terrorizing other women. It's like a compulsion. Michael enjoys torturing women, not always physically. He clearly gets a kick out of scaring them. He's close enough to see the fear in their eyes, which must bring him a tiny bit of the pleasure he gets when he kills someone.

[A]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fanfellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

[B]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball. But you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[A]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[A]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[B]

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

[E]

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[D]

Back to October 2002, 20 months after Ashley's murder, and Michael Gargiulo is the number one suspect. And in that same month, Detective Tom Small finally catches a break.

[C]

I get a call. He's a Cook County Sheriff's police investigator, and he was in town investigating a case from 1993.

[D]

Wait, what? They are cold case detectives from Illinois, and they're reinvestigating the Tricia Picacho murder, which is still unsolved, and they wanted

[C]

some help locating a witness in Hollywood area. So I said, who are you looking for? They said, well, we're looking for a guy named Michael Gargiulo.

[D]

Where were you in your investigation when that happened?

[C]

I was hunting for Gargiulo because I wanted to bring him in. I. I didn't have any proof connecting him to the murder other than this behavior, the stalking behavior. So I wanted to bring him in and, you know, basically interrogate him. I said, michael Gargiulo. That's interesting. What are you looking for him for? He said, well, he's. He's a witness on this case we're investigating, and we need to touch bases with him and get some DNA from him.

[D]

Did they know you were investigating him as well?

[C]

No, no. Pure coincidence.

[D]

This is pure coincidence. Oh, my gosh.

[C]

And they showed up at the station, and I had the printout with his picture. I says, is this Mike Arjula that you're looking for? He says, yeah. How'd you get that so fast? I said, because I'm looking for him, too. They said, oh. I said, what kind of case do you have? They said, well, we're investigating a murder of a young girl. I said, oh, how was she. How was she murdered? Well, she was stabbed a number of times, and it was pretty vicious. And they showed me a crime scene photo, and the photo was almost identical in layout to the way Ashley was. So I said, well, we're looking for him, too, but he's a suspect in our case. We got a murder, too.

[D]

Wow, that must have been mind blowing.

[C]

And we got a young girl, not much older than your girl. He said, their victim was 18. I said, my victim is 22. I said, they're both very pretty girls. You notice that? And he said, well, how was your girl killed? I said, she was stabbed. And I mean, butchered almost 50 times, and her throat was cut. He said, our girl was stabbed, but her arm was fractured, a spiral fracture, like somebody really strong taking that arm and twisting it to put her in a position so he could kill her.

[D]

At this point, was your mind blown and were you thinking, oh, my gosh, I actually have a serial killer? What was your reaction?

[C]

And I said, oh, geez, I wonder how many more you know, because guys like this, they don't stop at one or two. They'll keep killing.

[D]

Your adrenaline must have been racing, because now you're against the clock, too.

[C]

Well, there was. There was so much pressure from on top. There was political pressure, and there was the media constantly hounding, and then the families. I would get a call from the Ellerins Daily.

[D]

Poor family.

[C]

I'm trying to figure out what happened here, so just bear with us. I said, I'm going to work this case until the cows come home, but I need you to stay with me on this.

[D]

It's nine years after Tricia Picacho was stabbed to death on the stoop of her home close to where Michael lived. But police in Illinois don't view Michael Gargiulo as a suspect. Instead, as a witness. Cook County PD have a suspect, someone who they believe killed himself after murdering Tricia. But they have to rule out everyone else before they can exhume his body. They also have a DNA profile from samples extracted from underneath Trisha's fingernails in 1993, but it's not a match to anyone in the police system. They come to LA to track down Michael and get his DNA. From now on, the detectives join forces with the common aim. Find Michael Gargiulo. Detective Tom Small also travels to Glenview to dig into Michael's background.

[C]

I met Mike Gargiulo's former girlfriend from high school, who he handcuffed and raped, never charged.

[D]

That's Suzanne in Chapter two. We heard her account of what happened when she was 17.

[C]

I met some of the neighborhood guys that went to school with him that didn't like him, but they still live in that neighborhood. And I met some of the guys that he was on the football team with, and they didn't like him. It was massively strong. But he had this. This problem where he just liked to hurt people. That comes throughout. Virtually everybody I talked to that grew up with him, they said, he just likes to hurt people. He used to say things like, you see that girl over there walking? I'd like to kill her. Yeah, he would say things like that a lot. Doug Picassio, Trish's brother, used to chum around with him, but then he said Mike got a little too weird for him and he would just pick a fight. He'd find a weakling and just go assault them. Because he could.

[D]

So these anecdotal stories really suggest he was pretty violent and aggressive even back then. So this is. He's been violent, aggressive his whole life. Detective Tom Small's research paints a very different picture of the family dynamics than the one presented in court by the defense. In this version, Michael is the aggressor, not the victim. On October 29, 2002, nearly two years after Ashley's murder, and nearly nine years after Trisha Boccaccio was killed, Detective Small serves search warrants in LA for multiple addresses connected to Michael.

[C]

We hit all the pads simultaneously. I had detectives at every location.

[D]

One location is of particular interest. The apartment where he threatened his neighbor's 17 year old daughter with a knife.

[C]

The only place Gargiulo ever had his name on a rent receipt was on a place in Clark Drive on the west side of la, one block from Beverly Hills.

[D]

That day, Detective Small is carrying out the search warrant at another property linked to Michael when his phone rings and

[C]

I get a call. He says, guess who just showed up? I said, you gotta be kidding. He said, no. He tried to bust through all four of us. He walked up out of the alley and detectives were outside and to the uniform said, hey, no, hey, that's Garjula. And they say, hey, Mike, come on over here, we'd like to talk to you. And then the detectives come charging out and boom. They had a little scuffle. But he wound up going to Cedar Sinai Medical Center. So we got the blood, hair and saliva from him.

[D]

Detective Small searches Michael's apartment.

[C]

It was very sparse. There was no bed and a couple of items of clothing hanging in one closet. There was a blanket and a pillow on the living room floor with a black bag. And I call that a go bag. It's like a bag that a criminal might use. Inside that bag was one of those clear masks that maybe somebody that wants to distort their features.

[D]

Super creepy looking.

[C]

And There was also a.38 snub nose revolver in there, which turned out to be a stolen gun.

[D]

And then a super creepy discovery. A collection of dolls, perfectly protected in their original packaging.

[C]

There was something like 150 to 200 of these ghoulish dolls. We had them all stashed and stocked up in this bedroom. Dr. Giggles, Texas Chainsaw. Massacre, some of these other horror type things. Real bloody, gory with knives. Because he was a huge horror movie nut.

[D]

That must have been intimidating to walk in and see that because you're like, okay, I'm onto something here.

[C]

Well, yeah, then that just. I knew I had a freak on my hands here. That's where he gets inspiration. That's his art form.

[D]

Michael's obsessed with slasher movies and is an avid collector of the merch. He's also into violent video games. He's got the Mortal Kombat dragon tattooed on his arm, a game notorious for its graphic violence. In court, the defense psychologist mentions Michael's alleged exposure as a teenager to violent films of women being sexually tortured. I discussed this with clinical psychologist Dr. Joan Kaufman, who's an expert in child abuse and neglect. So let's talk about these films he was allegedly forced to watch. What is your take on that? Many people watch that and don't do it, you know. And you know, what's available on the Internet now. We know more and more youth have access to different types of pornography and what have you. And again, the majority of people can watch this and never think, let me reenact it. You make a great point that watching slasher films does not a serial killer make. But would you argue that it might be what a killer could seek out, something to be interested in? Absolutely. I mean, like, I never in a million years would watch it. You know, I once went to a Clint Eastwood film that began with a rape, and I walked out. You know, like, I helped people through these things, but I don't want to see it on the big screen. So, you know, so absolutely, people may seek it out. You know, we know children watching violence increases the likelihood of them showing aggression. But again, aggression's on a spectrum and, you know, serial killers, off the charts. Yeah, and those studies were kind of temporal in nature. They. They would exhibit aggression shortly thereafter, but longitudinally, they weren't more aggressive as. As time went on. Detective Tom Small doesn't have enough evidence to arrest Michael, so he has to let him go. He's put under surveillance while they await the DNA test results.

[C]

Well, Garjula moves around and he drives all over the place. He surveils. He's picking targets. You know, he's hunting.

[D]

Basically, he's like a polar bear. You're hunting him and he's hunting you right back.

[C]

In fact, we actually, we crossed paths. I. I followed him to his brother's apartment building in Hollywood, and I saw that he parked the truck, went inside So I went inside to see where he goes, and it wasn't on any floor until I got to the fourth floor. And he was coming out of an apartment, and we passed in the hallway.

[D]

Oh, gosh.

[C]

He probably made me as a cop, but I didn't. I didn't pay any note to him because I didn't want to tip him off. I was watching him.

[D]

You started just following him yourself? Not. Not even because you were working? Just. You were just gonna go spend time looking at him, huh?

[C]

Yeah. I didn't want anybody else getting killed. This guy's a savage. But at any rate, we had to let him go, so. And then he went off the radar again. He's off the grid.

[D]

So you had him under surveillance and he disappears.

[C]

Yes, because our surveillance wasn't continuous all the time. We didn't have the bodies to do that because we had other murders

[D]

by now. It's 2003, a decade since Tricia Picacho's murder and two years since Ashley was killed. Michael is 27, and it will be a pivotal year for him. His girlfriend, Vilma Carrillo, gives birth to a baby boy. Michael becomes a father. In September, Detective Small gets another call from Illinois. The unknown DNA found under Tricia Picacho's fingernails has been matched to Michael. Detective Small is convinced he's got his man, but his hands are tied at this point. You have DNA. Why is it he's not arrested?

[C]

The DNA that I had from him didn't match a thing in Ashley's house. There was no Gargiulo DNA that we were able to uncover. And we checked the walls, the doorknobs, the flooring, everything. In this case, there just wasn't enough for me to arrest him on.

[D]

Just as the net is closing in, Michael outsmarts the cops yet again. They've got his DNA on Trisha Picacho, but he's left nothing at the scene of Ashley Ellerin's murder. He knows detectives are watching his every move, so he bides his time until the surveillance operation is called off. Then suddenly, he vanishes. Tom Smoke, worst nightmare.

[C]

And nobody knows where he's at. And I'm getting kind of frantic because I know it's a matter of time. He's going to kill again.

[D]

Next time on Mind of a Monster. The Hollywood Ripper. In addition to committing these murders, he had a history of domestic violence.

[F]

And he gets behind me, and I'm facing my apartment door, and he puts me in a headlock.

[C]

The attack on her was so vicious, so callous. That it almost was like a personal thing.

[F]

Again, it's this dehumanization of a very feminine part of the body and really this representation of like, eat shit.

[D]

I slammed a paper.

[C]

Shit.

[D]

Holy shit. Holy shit.

[C]

I'm running around going, oh my God, it's him.

[F]

It's him.

[C]

What am I going to do?

[D]

Mind of a monster. The Hollywood Ripper is produced by Arrow Media, a Freemantle Company for ID. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.

[A]

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of things, Sanderson.

[B]

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

[A]

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Hey.

[B]

Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

[A]

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

[B]

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

[E]

The Bleacher Report app is your destination for sports right now. The NBA is heating up, March Madness is here, and MLB is almost back. Every day there's a new headline, a new highlight, a new moment you've got to see for yourself. That's why I stay locked in with the Bleacher Report app. For me, it's about staying calm, connected to my sports. I can follow the teams I care about, get real time scores, breaking news and highlights all in one place. Download the Bleacher Report app today so you never miss a moment.

[C]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

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Hey, it's Christy.

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