An Honest Talk about NBA Officiating and The Rule Changes Over the Years

Summary

Mind the Game – S3E1: "An Honest Talk About NBA Officiating and The Rule Changes Over the Years"

Release Date: March 10, 2026
Hosts: LeBron James & Steve Nash
Presented by: UNINTERRUPTED & Wondery

---

Episode Overview

In this season opener, LeBron James and Steve Nash have an honest, spirited conversation about the evolution of NBA officiating and rule changes—how shifts in interpretation, technological advances, and innovative player tactics have made the game both more complex and, at times, more ambiguous. They blend personal anecdotes with strategic insights, calling for greater consistency and clarity in NBA rules, and dive into specific examples from recent games to illustrate their points. The hosts also take fan questions, offering practical wisdom from their decades at basketball's highest level.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ref Mixtapes & Officiating's Spotlight (00:00–00:30)

• Steve Nash opens with a lighthearted story about a referee "mixtape" with music and flashy edits, emphasizing the growing attention officials now receive online.
  • Memorable Moment: “This shit was fucking hilarious. Y’all pulled this up just now.” – Steve Nash [00:13]
• Sets a tone of both humor and seriousness on how officiating is talked about in the public sphere.

---

2. Officiating Challenges & Rule Inconsistencies (00:57–04:45)

• Primary Concern: The lack of clarity and consistency in officiating, especially on moves like the gather step, step-throughs, and deceleration moves.
• Rule Ambiguity: Nash points out, “We don’t explain what is and what isn’t a travel anymore.” [02:45]
• Player Frustration: Players never know what to expect from game to game: “One official telling you one thing and then another official telling you another thing.” – Steve Nash [02:46]
• Questions if there’s unified communication at the league level, or if calls are too ref-dependent.

---

3. Rapid Evolution in Game Tactics & Impact on Referees (04:45–07:20)

• Both hosts acknowledge that rapid changes—inspired by players’ innovative moves and influences from technology—put pressure on officials to adapt swiftly.
  • Steve Nash: "I give some respect to the players for trying stuff. I also give an understanding to the officials that this stuff is changing fast." [04:20]
• Nash and co-host agree the solution isn’t reverting but wanting a “uniform understanding” for what’s allowed.

---

4. Personal Experiences and Pet Peeves (04:53–11:31)

A. Nash’s Recent In-Game Examples

• Late Whistle Example: A player gets fouled, doesn’t shoot, but receives three free throws. “That's never been the way I grew up playing the game... he never shot the ball.” – Steve Nash [05:24]
• Additional confusion on side-out vs. shooting foul calls based on body orientation. [05:35–06:25]

B. Consistency of Physicality & Defensive Rules

• Drastic differences in what’s allowed above the three-point line versus in the paint.
  • “You can maul the ball handler above the three point line... then when you get below the foul line, it gets ticky, tacky.” [06:25]
• Reference to “dislodging”: players now can “run your shoulder through a guy’s chest... and it’s fair game.” [07:04]

C. Offensive Innovations & Moving Screens

• Complaints about the use of off arms, hand screening, and ghost screens blurring the line between legal and illegal play. [07:53–08:37]

---

5. Offensive vs. Defensive Balance – Thematic Reflection (08:39–14:59)

• Hosts examine how the league is trending toward favoring offense, but stress that great offense is only meaningful against great defense.
  • “Offense is great, but... what makes offense great is partly good defense.” [08:39]
• They raise the issue of "rip-through" and "dislodge" moves coming in and out of favor, leading to swings in how the game is played.

Playoff vs. Regular Season Officiating

• Noting the stark change in officiating philosophy come playoffs: “You go September through April... then boom, right? It completely changes. It's like, what are we—” – Steve Nash [14:59]
• “It's a different sport, man.” [15:00]

---

6. Suggested Solutions & The Need for a "Point of View" (11:34–15:10)

• Brainstorming potential fixes: Standardization, adding a fourth official, tech integration—but agree the root need is a clear, league-level vision.
  • “I think it’s just a point of view, to be honest.” – Steve Nash [13:39]
  • “Let’s get a point of view on some of these plays.” – Co-host's “PSA” [15:02]

---

7. On-Court Example Breakdown (17:57–24:32)

Steve Nash and the co-host break down 2026 NBA plays to highlight officiating dilemmas:

• Carry and Hesitation: Spurs’ player does a hesitation with the ball under his hand—a clear violation by earlier standards. “That’s a hesi... the ball for a step or two is under his hand. There’s no question. In two, three years ago... there’s no way.” [17:59]
• Offense-Induced Contact: Discussion around when a defender is moving laterally vs. being in legal position, and when offensive players create unnecessary contact (“changing lines to create contact”) [23:35–24:31]
• Differences in foul calls for players of different sizes (e.g. Scottie Barnes vs. Tyrese Maxey): “What’s marginal to you may not be marginal to me if it’s affecting my shot, but a foul is a foul.” – Steve Nash [21:12]
• “If that’s how the game is gonna be called... you know it from the first two possessions.” – Steve Nash [21:57]

---

8. Fan Questions Segment (27:00–30:56)

Reading the Second Line of Defense [27:00–29:22]

• Question: “How do you read the second level of defense once past your initial defender?”
  • Nash: Focus instinctively on “where’s the space behind that guy.” Study team tendencies—“just read and react.” [27:34–28:21]
  • “Make mistakes, and that's okay.” [28:43]
  • Co-host: Be aware of where the space is and manipulate it as a team.

Dealing with Missed Clutch Shots [29:22–30:56]

• Question: “How do I manage emotions after missing a game winner?”
  • Nash: “Emotions are gonna happen... you have to be ready for that moment again and not shy away from it.” [29:22–29:58]
  • Co-host: “If you are nervous shooting that shot, the odds of it going well aren’t great... You need to be bold. I need to go for it. And that allows you to grow and be more effective in the moment.” [30:56]

---

Notable Quotes

• Steve Nash: “I just want consistency. As players, we just want consistency.” [02:46]
• Steve Nash: “We don’t explain what is and what isn’t a travel anymore.” [02:45]
• Co-host: “Remember we used to talk about dislodging? Now you can literally run your shoulder through a guy’s chest...” [07:04]
• Steve Nash: “It's a different sport, man.” [15:00]
• Co-host: “Let’s get a point of view on some of these plays.” [15:02]
• Co-host: “What’s marginal to you may not be marginal to me if it’s affecting my shot.” (On foul inconsistency) [21:12]
• Steve Nash: “Emotions are gonna happen… be ready for that moment again and not shying away from it.” [29:22]
• Co-host: “You need to be bold… And that allows you to grow and be more effective in the moment.” [30:56]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00 — Ref Mixtape, Social Media’s Role in Officiating
• 00:57 — Opening up the officiating debate; gather step and travel ambiguity
• 02:45 — Consistency and communication issues among refs
• 07:04 — Physicality, freedom of movement, and “dislodging”
• 11:34 — Brainstorming fixes and league-level direction
• 14:59 — Playoff officiating vs. regular season
• 17:57 — Play breakdowns: carry/hesitation, hand screening, offensive fouls
• 21:12 — Consistency, context, and setting the game’s “terms” as a player
• 27:00 — Fan Q&A: Reading the second line of defense
• 29:22 — Fan Q&A: Handling missed big shots emotionally

---

Tone & Style

• Deeply analytical, candid, occasionally passionate/riffing.
• Mixes humor (“ref mixtape”) with frustration over ambiguity and seriousness about the future and integrity of the game.
• Encourages openness, questioning, and growth in basketball, both professionally and for fans.

---

Closing

This episode of Mind the Game is a must-listen for devoted basketball fans craving authentic insights into how NBA strategy and officiating are developing in real time. Steve Nash and LeBron James go beyond surface-level narratives, advocating for consistent standards and a unified approach for the league—ultimately, to help players, coaches, and fans better understand and celebrate the intricacies of basketball.

---

Next Episode: Drops every other Tuesday.
Find on: YouTube, all major podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Steve Nash]

I was on X like a few months ago, and a referee had a mixtape.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Stop, stop.

[Steve Nash]

I swear to God, I gotta find it.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Stop.

[Steve Nash]

Did you see that? You didn't see? The referee had a mixtape and he had music behind it of him making calls. And it like blurred into another call. He was running down. It was like. He had to be. Middle school basketball. I tell you, this shit was fucking hilarious. Y' all pulled this up just now.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Let's go look this guy, huh? To the beat.

[Steve Nash]

This look, is this middle school or. Oh, freshmen. They're like freshmen. It's img.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

No nonsense. No nonsense.

[Steve Nash]

He was like this.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah,

[Steve Nash]

that was bullshit. That was bullshit. I was dying, crying, laughing at this dude, man.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

That's my Pete.

[Steve Nash]

Boom.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Be. This episode is presented by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. If you're the kind of person who wants to understand the game at a deeper level, Claude is built for you. It's an AI thinking partner that helps you work through complexity, not just surface answers. Try it free at Claude AI mindthegame. So something that's kind of piqued my attention and curiosity this year has been the officiating. They have a tough job like this. I'm not here. I'm not trying to. It's more like, where are we going with the rules of our game? And let's talk through some of the examples. You know, first of all, the obvious one's the gather step. Like how you can take two or three step backs if the ball's conceivably hands on the side of the ball, which is impossible, right? To take two or three steps with the ball still being on the side of your hand. The pickup points that gather, that leads to, like when the Euro starts, you know, the other thing is like. And this is the step through used to be something that you were allowed to do in the women's game. This is not a sexist comment. Do you not feel like it used to be on the bump fake, and then take that full step through? We were never allowed to do that. Now you can do the step through. There's the D cell where you can come 1, 2, stop on 1 leg and literally stop. I. You could never do that in the past. You can do that now. I don't have a problem with it. But we don't explain what is and what isn't a travel anymore.

[Steve Nash]

No, we don't.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Well enough, at least.

[Steve Nash]

No, we do not. We do not. And it's in. The only thing, as a. As a player is so inconsistent. The way it's called. And as players, we just want consistency. And like on any given night, you can have one official telling you one thing and then another official telling you another thing. And that's like the only. I'm like. So my take is like, is this not a, Is this not a World League conversation that you guys are having to like, this is how we are officiating these plays, this is how we're officiating these moves. This is how we're officiating this? Or is it just like depending on the ref? Like, you know, so that's like, that's the most frustrating part. Like when you out there and sometimes you can get away with certain things. It's like, you know, even defensively, some games you're allowed to get away with completely bear hugging guys and holding them, and then two nights later, you can barely put your hands on guys. It's like, okay, so where are we? What are we doing? Yeah, you know, so, yeah, it's just the emphasis on like the evolution of the gather step and you know, to step through, you know, step after. After already establishing a pivot foot is. I, I do not have the answer. You know, I have no idea.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Like I said, like, I don't have a problem with it if that's where we're going. But I just. It's almost like I would love some sort of uniform understanding of what we're allowing now. Like, I'll go into some other examples, but let's kind of. And whether this sounds like I'm defending the referees or not, like, I feel like it's like the tech. I've said this before, but like technology is influencing the rate of change in our world and the players are now doing the same thing. They're trying different things, they're innovating. The game's changing quickly. And so I give some respect to the players for trying stuff. And I also give an understanding to the officials that this stuff is changing fast. But that's part of the reason why I'd love for us to get like more of a handle on it. And, and I'm not saying it's right or wrong. Whichever way you swing, you can say something.

[Steve Nash]

No, I got, I just got a play in my head that just went to my head about the play.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Like, let me have it.

[Steve Nash]

We had a. I don't remember what game it was, but we had a. So we had a game where a guy got fouled. He was. He, he went up to shoot. He went up to shoot and they called foul and he and it was a late. It was a late whistle. So when the guy went up to shoot, he didn't hear the whistle. They called it late. And he just landed. And he landed with the ball.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

So he never shot it.

[Steve Nash]

He never shot it. And the ref said, three free throws. That's never been the way I grew up playing the game. Yeah, like, he didn't even attempt.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

He was playing that one away.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, I understand. He said, well, he already, you know, he had the ball. He was already looking like he was about to shoot. I'm like, but he never shot the ball. Like, he never shot the ball. So I don't understand. And then there was a play for me the other day. I got. I was facing. So I'm facing this way, and the rim is this way, and I get fouled. And I'm about to go up to shoot, and I'm about to turn and shoot it. And the ref said on the side. And I said, explain to me why is that not two free throws? And he told me that because my body and my feet was facing in a different direction.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

But if you'd already gathered with two hands, you already had it. With two hands.

[Steve Nash]

Already had was just.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, well, I don't know.

[Steve Nash]

I don't know.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Well, yeah, like, this is where I'm going with this, is that I've never, I felt like the. Just in general, the refereeing and the rules have never been more clouded. Give me some more examples that I see. I feel like you can maul the ball handler above the three point line or above the free throw line. Like you can really get into people, hack away, bump all that stuff. I don't mind it, but let's call it what it is. But then when you get below the foul line, it gets ticky, tacky. That's one thing that bothers me. We can go back through these, but here's one that I've noticed that is just. Remember we used to talk about dislodging.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Now you can literally run your shoulder through a guy's chest, back him up five, seven feet, lay the ball in or shoot, and it's fair game. I don't have a problem with it. But when and why did that become a possibility in our game?

[Steve Nash]

It wasn't discussed. It just kind of happened. And you just have to figure it out. We went from one week to us prepping for games, and then, you know, like two weeks later, it was like, okay, now we can do this. It's like, but when did it change? Right, right, right. How Are we allowed to do this now? How are we allowed to just like wrap guys up? Just like completely bear hug them? I thought there was. It went from freedom of movement to no freedom of movement to. So it's like, I'm not. I don't get it.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, yeah. Cause we. So we have the travels, the gather stuff, you know, the freedom of movement stuff, the phys. The, like the, the off arm. Not just the shoulder, but the off arm, I think has gotten a little out of hand. Moving screens are ridiculous. I get the ghost game stuff and I get like, you know, we always had guys trying to get away with stuff, but now it's become so blurry. Where guys. One, a lot of hand screening where you just grab a guy and push him and then the other one is these kind of like, am I screaming? Am I screaming? Am I not? But I'm definitely gonna just get in your way for 1, 2, 3 extra seconds. It's just. I feel like it needs to be cleaned up.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, I think it needs to be cleaned up.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

And what's our point of view on this as a game? Because I think that we all want offense. Offense is great, but like what makes offense great is partly good defense. That's when we show what really elite offense is. So some of these things like moving screens, you know, but that's the thing again, it gets the consistency above the three point line. You get into people, you know, you can really, really take liberties. Then you get inside and now the offensive player can shoulder you off, can use the chicken wing. Screening becomes really difficult. So I'm really curious as to where we're going with this. And there's like these different through points, the rip through stuff, we clean that up, the dislodge stuff, but then it comes back around and now it's. But these things are kind of back on the table. So yeah, I just, as a fan now and as someone who played it, is so curious how far it swung.

[Steve Nash]

Right. And where it's gonna end.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Right. And where's it gonna end or how we're gonna.

[Steve Nash]

Is the string too long? Is it not? Like I'm at a point for me, obviously I'm at a point in my career where it's like, like, bro, don't even like race your voice. Like I'll be saying. I'll be

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

just sitting back in the kitchen.

[Steve Nash]

There was a play last night that happened that I wanted to argue so bad and I wasn't even playing, I was in street clothes. I wanted to argue so bad because I knew I was exact. I was so right. I was so right. And unfortunately, like, a player got, like, hurt last night. So we had a fast break, and Rui went up for a dunk. Stefan Cassel blocked his shot. We got the rebound, laid it up. Stephon Cassel's on the ground underneath the basket, and they're looking at his player. But what happened was one of the San Antonio players took the ball out, and Wemby came and he was looking at his teammate, and he grabbed the ball from his teammate while he was still out of bounds.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, it's a violation.

[Steve Nash]

I said, that's our ball. Like, that's a violation. Like, that's our. The refs from the other end come flying down and said that their coach called a timeout beforehand. I said, there's no fucking way. And they awarded them a timeout.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, as a player, sometimes that stuff can be frustrating.

[Steve Nash]

And by the way. And then Wemby, after Stephon Castle got up and everything, they awarded him the ball. Wemby went down and scored his 40th point of the court.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

As a player, I'm like, yeah, what are we.

[Steve Nash]

What are we doing?

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Because the problem is it happened another time, and you don't get the same. It's like, oh, no. Touch the ball in the bounce.

[Steve Nash]

What are we doing?

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, it's the. The consistency.

[Steve Nash]

That's all. That's all.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

And. And it's. It's. I get it. Like, it's a hard job. The game's changing fast. Yeah.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, for sure.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

But, like, it's almost like we need a point of view on it. I think, you know, we need a point of view on, like, what. How do we want our. Our league to. To be played? Because things are different. Coaches are teaching different strategies. I think we're seeing guys do stuff in the game, and then coaches are saying, we can use that. Like the first. Like, I think Hallie talks about, Buddy, introducing all the different type of go speeds and stuff and them taking that. I think that happens around the league. Fouling a lot. Like, getting into people, what you can do. Teams are starting to put more and more pressure on the ball. Higher where they're letting. Now all of a sudden, we're letting them get away with it. You couldn' before, you know, like these. These bumps at the rim are crazy to me. We are no dislodge. Here's one. When someone's sliding their feet with the defender, with the offensive player, and the offensive players got a line to the basket and the defender is trying to stay with them, the offensive players. Now, yeah, maybe both feet aren't set, but they're going off their line to create contact. The player's still in a legal guarding position, theoretically, but they're calling blocks on the defender that the guy went off his line to create contact, knock him out. So there's all these things where the game's just starting to change and change and change. I think it's. If we don't have a point of view on it, it gets out of hand.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, it gets out of hand. Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

And then you get frustrated because the call seemed.

[Steve Nash]

Because the guys are out there, like, really competing. Guys are competing for something. Guys are competing to win, obviously, every night. And obviously, like you said, the refs have a tough job. We're not ever going to discredit, you know, the. Is it a 4? Is it adding a 4th ref? I don't know. Is it. I don't know. I don't know. Is it having. Cause usually, you know, you got the three refs and then one go to the back just in case of an injury, or is it one ref that stays at the table? Is he watching and kind of has a certain cadence where he can hit a button, I guess. I don't know. And be like, oh, well, guys, you guys might need to review that and look at that, you know, I don't know.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Like, I think it's just a point

[Steve Nash]

of view, to be honest.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

I think it's a point of view and I think we have to decide what we're doing on some of these things. Like, the other one that bugs me is like, when a guy's driving and a defender tries to get back in contact. Like, we used to talk about marginal, and I think we definitely. We call it marginal on top, like out about three point line. We're in the ball so hard now, but inside, a guy tries to close that gap with a driver and. And a marginal, just trying to be in contact. Not this is a foul, but this. The offensive players are smart. As soon as they get close, you know, they create. We gotta let that stuff go. Like, you gotta allow guys to guard, to get back in touch with their man, get back in contact, even have some physicality. But I feel like now it's like we're playing both sides.

[Steve Nash]

We talked about this on, like, some of our earlier, earlier episodes where we do this all year. And then in the post season, they let the shit go and it takes you two to three, four playoff games, if you're lucky to adjust. It's like, what Are we doing like. I get it, I get it. I get the post season should be more like, okay, but like, you know, you go September through April, mid April of this is how it's gonna be called and then boom, right? It completely changes. It's like, what are we.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Like how sport.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, it's a different sport, man.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah. So yeah, anyways, that's my. That's my psa. Let's get a point of view on some of these plays.

[Steve Nash]

That is Steve Nash psa. And I'll prove this message.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Foreign. If you listen to this show, you're probably not satisfied with hot takes and highlight reels. You want to understand the game at a deeper level. The schemes, the adjustments, the strategic decisions that separate good from great. That's exactly the kind of thinking Claude is built for. Claude is an AI thinking partner that works with you, not for you. When you're trying to understand something complex, whether that's breaking down pick and roll coverage, researching how offensive systems have evolved, or analyzing why certain matchups create specific problems, Claude helps you dig into the nuance. It doesn't rush to tidy conclusions. It works through the complexity, asks follow up questions, and gives you proper citations so you can trace the reasoning. Anthropic is committed to keeping Claude AD free, which means it's optimized to help you think, not to keep you scrolling. For people who love going deeper on the things that matter to them, Claude is the thinking partner you've been looking for. Try Claude for free at Claude AI mindthegame and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. And now over to our producer Jason for a word from one of our partners. Shout out to Our partners at DraftKings Sportsbook Basketball lives and dies by its stars. Stars who take over games. One possession, one bucket, and everything changes in a heartbeat. Those are the moments that DraftKings was built for. And right now, new customers who sign up and bet $5 get $200 in bonus bets instantly. Just download the app and use code Mind. Personally, I love having action on the details. I'm talking player props betting on if a player will hit over 14 1/2 rebounds, drain over 2 1/2 threes, or record a triple double. DraftKings makes it so easy to get involved and have some fun. And every Tuesday, their King of the court promo lets you choose one player for a chance to earn your share of $2,000,000 in bonus bets. Your player just needs to lead that night in total points, assists and rebounds. Pretty simple, right? Download the DraftKings sportsbook app now. And use code MIND to turn five bucks into $200 in bonus bets instantly. DraftKings, the Crown is yours. Let's go to 20, 26 plays. All right, we'll just run through some of these, but, like, spurs, a little action here. I mean, that's a carry.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Like, that's a hesi, where the ball for a step or two is under his hand. There's no question. In two, three years ago, even maybe five years ago, there's no way.

[Steve Nash]

Oh, yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah. And sometimes some of these could just be bad calls. They missed it, but it feels like it's happening a lot. Guy Kamara goes for the pump fake, but goes fly by, fly by. And C.J. seeks him off the line. And we're given those. I mean, that's happening. And then leans towards. Yeah, I mean, that's. I feel like you get punished if you leave your feet now, but if you don't leave your feet and make contact, you know.

[Steve Nash]

You know, even if I'm coming forward, if I'm. If I come forward and I'm able to get out of the way. But you're leaning towards me with that kicking a foul. I don't think it should be a foul.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

I agree. I'll farm. Push.

[Steve Nash]

I mean, shit, everybody was fouling on that play, right? Yeah.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

There was never a loud in the past.

[Steve Nash]

No.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Right.

[Steve Nash]

Anytime this was extended. If it wasn't. If it wasn't shoulder, anytime your off arm, either. If you're a righty or lefty, anytime that did like this. And a player, it's automatic. That is dislodging the defender.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Right. You're allowed a certain amount of contact with the shoulder.

[Steve Nash]

Shoulder. A little bit of here. But if this was this full extension, it's automatic. Automatic.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

All right, we got Shay here,

[Steve Nash]

so

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

I actually don't have a huge problem with this one. This is Shay on ad.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, I think that's more shoulder. More shoulder and release. Sometimes Shay can get. Sometimes his arm can get fully extended, but I feel like that was more. That one right? There was more shoulder, and then I'm trying to get away.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

So it's interesting, though, and this is maybe where the referees are in a tough position, because this one, I'm like. I could see it being called. I also am okay with it not being called. So Shay does create contact here and leverage, but I feel like that's marginal. Like, as far as the rules.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, I feel like as far as. When we talk about the push off the opposite hand, I felt like that was more. I feel like that was a marginal

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

play, and I feel like Shay's a master at how much leverage he can create without.

[Steve Nash]

He's damn. He's so damn good at that.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Without a foul. All right, this is a Scotty Barnes clip. We got the rafters, Philly. Hmm. So I guess we're thinking he leaned in a little too much on this drive. Yeah.

[Steve Nash]

I mean, I don't see that being

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

a foul, but,

[Steve Nash]

see, that's what happens is because Scottie Barnes may go make that move and lean in, don't get the call. Because Scottie Barnes. 6, 9, 6, 10. Don't get the call.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

That call.

[Steve Nash]

But then my good. My good friend Tyree, Tyrese Maxey does the same thing, and they get it. They give him that call because he may be smaller in stature. She's like, you know, I get a lot of. From refs. That was a marginal play. I said, what's marginal to you? May not be marginal to me if it's affecting my shot, but a foul is a foul. If a guy's grabbing my arms and I'm just not flailing or whatever the

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

case may be, you're at a disadvantage.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah. So if that's how the game is gonna be called. So we don't know the context of what might have happened in the first four minutes. Maybe, you know, Joel Embiid maybe got that call. You know, maybe Tyrese Maxey got that call. And then when I go to the hole and do the same thing, they say play on, like, that's the consistency, that as players that you try to. That you. That you want from officiating, how are we gonna call it tonight? You know, and it could change from game to game. Every crew is different. But if we set the tone and say, this is how we're gonna play, you know it from the first two possessions. Okay, this is how they gonna let us play.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Right?

[Steve Nash]

They gonna let us hold and grab. They're gonna let us be physical or not.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

And smart players set the. Set the terms right. Like you. You know, Luke is great at it. Santa's. Oh, he's getting handsy with one of these. And get your hands off me the

[Steve Nash]

rest of the day as well.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

And so. But that's what. That's what makes great players great, is they're able to set the terms on how we're gonna play this game. All right, let's take a look at this one. This is Cade versus Charlotte. Yeah. I mean,

[Steve Nash]

so this is Jalen Duran, Duran from the Kid James.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

That's a lot of force.

[Steve Nash]

It is a lot of force.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

I mean, he sold it well, but that's a lot of force. I don't know that that would have ever been a defensive foul in any other era.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, right.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Because he's in a legal guarding position, trying to stand his ground. And I mean, I give some understanding. Jalen Duran's a big dude, but to me, this is a little excessive, but we're letting these go. All right, shoulder here. I think this might be jb. Let's see the other angle here.

[Steve Nash]

From the first angle, didn't look like much. That looked like a foul. That looked like a. A to B right there, right? No, no foul. I think. I think defensively that was a foul because JB definitely went from A to B, you know, but on the drive. On the drive, though, it's not no foul.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah. It's like the defender is an illegal guarding. So to me, like, do they want every defender at every point of contact to have both feet set? That's not the way the, you know, like, you can still be in front and have the right to that lane to the basket, but both feet aren't set. You're in motion. So I think that's where players are taking advantage. The guy's feet might not be set, but he's still moving to cover that line to the basket. And then the offensive player just changes lines and we're allowing them to just create unnecessary contact, go through the defender. So I don't. I hate that call, to be honest. Yeah, he went out of the line there. Did you see that?

[Steve Nash]

Yep. Now, did he. If he. If he moved that. That. That's off as a foul.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah.

[Steve Nash]

You can't, like, if. If you're going and the guy's coming and then you kind of just swerve in his lane and. But swerving his lane to do that into his body. Yeah, that's offensive file.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

That's offensive. That's.

[Steve Nash]

If you're trying to, you know, I get it that he's trying to make sure that he gets to, you know, to, you know, Chet's bodies to try to alleviate from him, you know, not get from. Get the block and you just swerve into his lane body. Okay, then get. But to fully extent, that's. That's an offensive foul.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah. As a little kid, my dad would take me to my grandparents home in North London where he grew up. I used to love walking from the house, through the park to watch a Tottenham match. Soccer wasn't just A game. In our family, it was everything. When you're there, you can really feel that passion and it's contagious. You'd open a window and feel the excitement of match day and hear songs echoing through the stadium. Those trips shaped everything for me. My love of sport, family, tradition. Come to think of it, that house would have been perfect for hosting visitors on Airbnb during a big tournament. With the World cup coming this summer, fans from all over the world will be traveling to North America. And you can help create that magic I experienced as a kid in Tottenham by hosting your home on Airbnb. Why not earn some extra cash while making their trip unforgettable? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host in basketball, the best teams don't rush. They control the tempo. They know when to push, when to slow it down, and when to create space so the game comes to them. Travel is the same way. When you're moving city to city, season after season, you learn the biggest edge you can have isn't speed, it's control. That's why people who travel a lot talk about lounge access. With the American Express Platinum card, you can enjoy access to over 1550 airport lounges worldwide. The largest global airport lounge network. Compared to other credit card Companies as of July 2025, it's a calm place away from the crowds, a place to slow things down, enjoy thoughtful curated meals and settle in before your flight takes off. The destination before you arrive at your destination, when you control the tempo early, everything that follows feels smoother. With premium travel benefits and award winning service, there's nothing like American Express Platinum terms apply. Learn [e-mail] withplatin. Okay, Fan questions.

[Steve Nash]

Love this part. I love fan questions, man. Yeah, a lot of people out here want to know about the game, man.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

All right, here's an interesting one. Addie Pradeep from Instagram said, how do you read the second level of defense? Once I get past my initial defender. So this is interesting because I'm not sure either one of us would have an answer because we learned that so early. Maybe instinctively, we're not worried about our guy. We're more looking, where's the space behind that guy that I want to get to?

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, we never had a problem with the guy that was in front of us. It was always the second and third line of defense. So I think obviously that has a lot to do with development.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yep.

[Steve Nash]

Having the reps and the confidence to be able to one beat your Own defender. So I'm guessing that Adi Pradeep has that ability or they wouldn't be asking, you know, the second part. So I think, you know, kind of knowing, you know, obviously studying the teams, studying the, studying what they're doing, you know, where's the help coming from? Do they help with the low man? Do they come out of the corners? Do they, you know, are there a team that like to hit, you know, once you get past, you know, mean like double team once you get past the initial defender. So I think just, you know, understanding what the defense.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Yeah, for sure.

[Steve Nash]

What they're, what they're, what they've been doing over the course of the season, what they do in their games, that that will help, you know. And then also more importantly, kind of just, kind of just read and react too, right? Don't forget to just like go out there and just read and react and you know, figure it out on the fly. I think that that has a lot to do with it too. It's another like we talking about trial and error.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Make mistakes.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, make mistakes and that's okay.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

I would say then maybe the one thing I could add is just start to gain an awareness of where is the space on the floor? Where is the space? Like if you get the ball and you know you can beat your defender but there's two people standing right behind them, that's probably the time to swing it, get to the other side. So just having an awareness of where the space is on the floor because you want as a team, attack that space. Now sometimes I might try to take the ball into a crowd to draw it even more to get it out so your shooters have a more open shot or a much bigger two on one situation. But I think it all comes from recognizing where the space is and how you want to manipulate that space.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, love that. Let me like. Oh, OJohnny on IG. How do I manage my emotions after missing a game winner or a clutch shot? Well, one thing about the emotions are gonna happen, right? You know, we've both been there, you know, we've both missed game winners, missed clutch shots. It happens. And that's just part of the game. You know, no one's one thing. You, the greatest people of all time to play the game of basketball have never shot 1000% or 100%, however you want to put the numbers.

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

Same thing.

[Steve Nash]

Yeah, same thing. But as far as managing, I think it's about understanding if that opportunity comes again, be ready for that moment again and not shying away from it. And it doesn't matter how many you miss. Like, you have the confidence if you put the work into it, you know, you vision yourself being in those moments, you know your teammates, you know, trust you to make, you know the right play or to even take the shot, no matter win, lose or draw. And you're confident in that. I think, you know, understanding, like, you know, the game is about, you know, going out and playing and loving it and having fun. And if you, you make the game winner, you're super excited. If you miss the game winner, you're super excited for the, for the, the next time, you know, so just being there, just staying present, understanding that, you know, like you said, there's, you're not going to make every shot, you know, and we all thrive to want to. Want to make every shot and be there and make every game winner and make every clutch shot, but it doesn't happen that way. But just being ready for that moment

[Co-host (possibly a basketball analyst or former player)]

once it happens again, for sure. You said it. It's an emotional game, right? Everyone's emotional. But. So let's look at this situation. How do I stop from being so emotional? When you take that last shot, you want to be as calm as possible, right? So if you're super emotional by missing, I'm guessing you are super emotional taking the shot, whereas if you were calm taking it, you live with make or miss because you're in the moment, you're in the process. So I think it's really important for young people, but anyone to be as calm and as confident as possible in the moment. Here's what I would say to back you up on that. Being ready to shoot the next one is if you are nervous shooting that shot, the odds of it going well aren't great, right? So you have to try to flip it from like, nervous to like, I'm going for it. I am trying to make the shot, not trying, like hoping. And if you go for it, not only do you have a better chance of making it, you're going to grow in those moments, right? I think you grow in those moments. If you have fear and your tension and you're nervous in those moments, you're not growing in those moments, right? So sometimes you have to go through that period and recognize what's the point of being nervous right now. I need to be bold. I need to go for it. And that allows you to grow and be more effective in the moment. Thanks for watching Mind the Game. New episodes drop every other Tuesday. Remember to, like, subscribe or follow wherever you're watching.