Basketball Evolution

Summary

Mind the Game: Basketball Evolution

Episode: Basketball Evolution
Release Date: April 3, 2024
Host: LeBron James and JJ Redick
Presented by: Uninterrupted | Wondery

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Introduction

In this episode of Mind the Game, hosts LeBron James and JJ Redick delve deep into the evolution of basketball strategies, particularly focusing on spacing within the NBA. Drawing from their extensive careers and firsthand experiences, they dissect various offensive schemes, discuss the transformation of player roles, and highlight the importance of complementary teammates in building successful teams.

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Evolution of Spacing in the NBA

Corner Splits and Spread Pick and Roll

LeBron and JJ begin by exploring traditional offensive setups like corner splits, referencing teams such as the Sacramento Kings of the early 2000s and the Minnesota Timberwolves under Rick Adelman in the mid-2010s. They break down how these formations emphasize spacing and allow shooters to capitalize on open shots.

LeBron James [00:39]: "I had so many people like wine."

JJ Redick [24:18]: "My first basket was coming off of Floppy Action. And I faded to the corner by our bench and received a ball over the top and hit a hit a 17, 18 foot."

The discussion transitions to the spread pick and roll, highlighting its significance in modern basketball where all five players are positioned on the perimeter, creating a dynamic and flexible offensive threat.

JJ Redick [02:00]: "Five out is how most NBA teams play. It's not necessarily a play as it is a set and a concept."

Five-Out/Delay and Short Roll

The hosts delve into the five-out system, also known as delay, emphasizing its role in maximizing floor spacing and facilitating versatile offensive actions. They explain how the short roll—a strategy where the big man moves from the high post towards the basket—has become pivotal in today's game.

LeBron James [06:57]: "Action."

JJ Redick [12:16]: "We're recording this on Thursday, opening day of the NCAA tournament official opening day."

Slot Cuts and Their Impact

LeBron and JJ introduce the concept of the slot cut, a timed movement from the wing area into the paint, which significantly enhances offensive fluidity and creates scoring opportunities through coordinated plays.

JJ Redick [38:45]: "The slot cuts unlocked exactly what myself and D. Wade thrive on. Dribble penetration, slot cutting, pick a roll."

LeBron James [45:14]: "This is part of the reason it's really hard to guard. Spread, pick and roll."

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Personal Experiences and Team Strategies

Early Career and Spacing Adjustments

LeBron recounts his rookie season with the Sacramento Kings, highlighting how traditional spacing limited his performance and the team's offensive versatility. This experience underscored the necessity for evolving offensive strategies to unlock player potential.

LeBron James [24:17]: "And Ricky Davis hit you at the elbow."

JJ Redick [25:08]: "Not really space."

Influence of Coaches

The hosts discuss the impact of influential coaches like Stan Van Gundy and Mike Brown on their understanding and implementation of spacing. They credit these mentors for introducing advanced offensive concepts that adapted to the league's changing dynamics.

JJ Redick [27:04]: "Stan saw what he had in Dwight and he started to build that team around him to like, I want nothing but space."

LeBron James [32:29]: "It's very simple. Basketball is a very organic thing and the players and their skills have to compliment each other."

Miami Heat and the Birth of the Super Team

LeBron reflects on his tenure with the Miami Heat, detailing how the team's adoption of the spread pick and roll alongside star players like Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh exemplified the evolution of NBA offenses. They emphasize that beyond having a "big three," the success of a super team hinges on having complementary role players who enhance the core.

LeBron James [41:12]: "The precursor was definitely, in my opinion, the Suns. Right. The Suns were the first with Dan, Tony."

JJ Redick [53:58]: "We got Channing Frye, added Richard Jefferson to that second team, add those guys."

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Player Development and Modern NBA Dynamics

Short Roll Specialists

LeBron and JJ analyze the modern emphasis on developing short roll specialists, players who can effectively navigate the space between the restricted area and the three-point line to create scoring opportunities through floaters, passes, or quick three-pointers.

JJ Redick [48:41]: "Playing out of the short roll."

LeBron James [49:14]: "What makes OKC so good is their ability to drive the basketball Y and then kick."

Adapting to New Roles

They discuss the challenges players face when adapting to evolving roles, particularly how versatile players like Chris Bosh and emerging talents like Chet Holmgren embody the modern NBA's demand for multifaceted skills.

LeBron James [49:28]: "I think too, you know what, looking back on that team, that I think was so important because I talk about this all the time now. Jameer Nelson could shoot threes out of pick and roll."

JJ Redick [50:52]: "He changes the dynamic of everything."

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Building a Super Team: The Importance of Complimentary Roles

Complementary Role Players

The conversation shifts to the critical role of complimentary players in forming a true super team. LeBron and JJ argue that having a star trio is insufficient without role players who can adapt and enhance the team's overall performance.

LeBron James [52:42]: "You can have a big three, right. You still need four or five ancillary role players."

JJ Redick [53:58]: "We got Kevin out of a trade. We lost in the finals. We wasn't really whole to unlock everything."

Pressure and Team Dynamics

They also touch upon the psychological aspects of the game, discussing how self-imposed pressure and the balance of roles contribute to a team's success or failure.

LeBron James [55:07]: "Pressure in particular, because most guys in the NBA put an insane amount of pressure on themselves."

JJ Redick [56:40]: "If I played anything like I did in Eastern Conference finals, we win."

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Conclusion

LeBron James and JJ Redick wrap up the episode by reaffirming their passion for basketball and the importance of understanding its evolving strategies. They emphasize that basketball is an organic game where player skills and team dynamics must harmonize to achieve championship success.

LeBron James [58:10]: "And that's basketball."

JJ Redick [58:10]: "And that's basketball."

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Notable Quotes

• LeBron James [45:14]: "If you're Jared Allen... what is he doing? It's literally playing out of the short roll."

• JJ Redick [38:35]: "This was the lowest. Yeah, the lowest."

• LeBron James [56:42]: "I've put a lot of pressure on myself to actually play well and actually contribute to winning."

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Key Takeaways

1. Spacing Evolution: Modern NBA offenses have significantly evolved from traditional setups, emphasizing perimeter play and versatile offensive actions like the spread pick and roll and slot cuts.

2. Influential Coaching: Coaches like Stan Van Gundy and Mike Brown have played pivotal roles in shaping contemporary offensive strategies, particularly around spacing and player roles.

3. Complementary Roles: Building a championship-winning team goes beyond assembling star players; it requires complementary role players who enhance and adapt to the core trio.

4. Player Development: The shift towards developing versatile players capable of executing short rolls and slot cuts is crucial in today's NBA landscape.

5. Psychological Dynamics: Self-imposed pressure and team dynamics are critical factors that influence a team's success, underscoring the importance of mental resilience alongside physical skills.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of basketball's strategic evolution, enriched by LeBron James and JJ Redick's personal narratives and professional insights. Whether you're an avid fan or new to the game, Basketball Evolution provides valuable perspectives on the intricate dance of X’s and O’s that define modern basketball.

Transcript

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[JJ Redick]

I mean, I don't know if it was intentional.

[LeBron James]

I had so many people like wine.

[JJ Redick]

People text me, oh yeah, me too.

[LeBron James]

DM me be like, couldn't quite make out. I knew you were drinking the one Rousseau.

[JJ Redick]

What was the other one?

[LeBron James]

Or.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, someone caught me last episode one. They said, he's not. He's not gonna waste a drop of that wine. But I poured juice up when I was like, oh, sorry, I didn't know you want another glass? I poured juice up and we were talking in mid conversation. I wiped the bottle and I licked my finger and it was, oh yeah, he's not wasting a drop of that.

[Unknown Host]

Welcome back to Mind the game with LeBron James and me, JJ Redick. This is episode three. We're going to be talking a little bit about the evolution of spacing in the NBA during both LeBron's career and my career. We're also going to be talking about the evolution of certain positions, certain cuts. It's going to be a great episode. No, we have not upgraded to animation. No, we don't have a whiteboard yet. The whiteboard was sent to Los Angeles. I'm recording this in Brooklyn, so you're stuck with the paper. Guys, a few key concepts I just want to review before we get to our conversation. Just as a review from episode one. Floppy is a catch and shoot play. It's very simple. On either side of the lane, there's two bigs. The point guard has the ball up top and the two wing players are underneath the basket. The shooter can come out either side, make a play. In the context of this conversation, it's funny because LeBron James never runs floppy. So in this episode, we talk about corner splits. Think the Sacramento Kings with Chris Weber and Vladi Divach as the passers. Mike Bibby, Peja, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie, those guys as the shooters and cutters. More recent example was Rick Adelman when he was in Minnesota in the mid 2010s. Kevin Love, Kevin Martin, Ricky Rubio. That's what these guys ran a lot of. Corner splits is very simple, by the way. By the way, I apologize. A number of people have pointed out that the defensive players are supposed to be the X's and the offensive players are supposed to be the O's. Here's the thing. I've only had one coaching job in my life. That is coaching 8, 9 and 10 year olds. Now when you coach 8, 9 and 10 year olds, it can be very confusing to have X's and O's on the court. So I decided to draw X's because they all thought the O looked like a basketball and that confused them. So for me, I draw my offensive players as X's. All right, corner split. There is a wing player in a corner. The ball handler brings it up aside. In this case, we're going to bring it up the left side and the big ie Vladivac, Kevin Love, Chris Weber is somewhere in the vicinity of the elbow or high post area. You can occupy the weak side in a number of ways. Have a guy in the corner.

[LeBron James]

Have a guy high.

[Unknown Host]

You can have a guy in the corner or have a guy in the dunker spot. Because I don't love the dunker spot, we'll put the other guy in the high quadrant. Point guard brings it up. He would hit the big Chris Weber, Vladi Debac at the high post. He then goes into split action. As a reminder, split action is just when two offensive players go to screen for each other off the ball. And again they can cut, they can curl, they can set a back screen or a rip screen. A rip screen is the same thing as a back screen oftentimes. Again, the meaning is in the word. If I was to say I'm going to go set a back screen for you, where would I screen your defender? I would screen his back. That's the same thing as a rip screen. So in this case, this is Peja, this is Mike Bibby. Mike Bibby can go set a down screen for Peja. Peja has a number of options here. He can curl to the basket, he can back cut, he can chase the basketball, he can come for a dribble handoff. In this case, let's say Mike Bibby sets a great screen. Paige just comes off, Vlade hits him. He hits a wide open jump. That's corner splits. All right, spread, pick and roll. All that means is there's nobody in the dunker spot, there's nobody in the paint. All five players are spread across the perimeter. Depending on where the pick and roll is located. Let's say it is up top, the ball handler. Here you have a guy in each corner. This is a right handed player. So we want to go to the single side. So we'll put this, this guy in the high quadrant. And then the screener would then come set a pick and roll. Again, everyone is spread out. Nobody is inside the paint. The opposite is of course would be. Let's say this guy will eliminate him and put him in the dunker spot. That is no longer a spread pick and roll. That's just a pick and roll. Five out delay. Again, the meaning is in the word five out. Five outside of the three point line. Five out. This is I think one of the biggest revolutions evolution in today's NBA. No longer see two people run to either block. As you did for a long time in the NBA. You still see it some in college, you certainly see it some in high school. Five out is how most NBA teams play. It's not necessarily a play as it is a set and a concept. So for the purposes of this, let's say it's off a miss. Everybody sort of run. You get two guys in the corner, one guy on the wing, ball handler bringing it up. And then the trail guy who got the rebound or who took it out is running down the center of the floor. Okay. Within that you can get to a number of options. You can play a step up pick and roll. Here you can run a stagger, screen away. Stagger, screen. Again, it's in the word two players. A stagger. One screen, two screen. You can run away. Action, away.

[LeBron James]

Action.

[Unknown Host]

Again, meaning is in the word. You go away from the basketball. You screen away like this.

[LeBron James]

Boom.

[Unknown Host]

That's DeAndre Jordan screening for me. That's Brook Lopez screening for Kyle Korver. That's just a way action. A lot of teams will hit the five man though at the top and then they will get into split action. Delay is just another name for five out. Again, because I've got a white piece of paper, not a whiteboard. I can't go over every single option out of this. But this is the essential idea of five out or delay. Okay? The short roll. This is one of the most important concepts in today's NBA. It's a big part of this conversation as well. Let's just go back to that spread pick and roll. Okay? So within that spread pick and roll, the five man is going to set a screen for the ball handler to get to his right hand. Okay? And let's say the help side is here, here, Strong side, strong side. All side is there. The big is up in the pick and roll and the guards and the. And the defender of the point guard is Right there. As this guy comes off, they put two on the ball. The short roll is essentially the area between, call it the restricted area and the three point line. So at any point in time, if you get the ball to the five man in this area, that forces a reaction from the defense. Now, this guy almost always will pull over as the low man. He's the lowest guy on the floor. He's the low man. That's his responsibility to protect the rim. This guy, as we discuss, sometimes will drop here and he will essentially have responsibility on these two guys. Once the ball is in this area. This is the short roll area. Anywhere again, between restricted and the three point line. The short roll area is where today's big man makes plays. A lot of guys are not shooting necessarily right here. They're not short rolling to shoot this shot. They are short rolling to either shoot a floater, a la jokic, to make this cut, this pass to this cutter, or to spray out to this man for a three. That's the short roll. Another concept we talk about is the slot cut. Just to be clear here, the slot is another word for the high quadrant. It's another word for the wing. In a spread pick and roll, the slot is considered the guy on the wing. You have the corner, the corner, and the two people in pick and roll. So this would be the slot right here. The slot cut is simply a timed cut. Let's say the ball handler turns the corner, the big rolls, the defense reacts. It's a time cut out of this slot to get the ball in this area, the paint, rim, whatever, go dunk the basketball. Now you can also, let's say you're posting the ball here, you can have a slot cut out of the post. A slot cut is just a cut from this slot area. Thank you guys again for watching, for listening. LeBron and I have really enjoyed recording these episodes, talking basketball, and I hope you guys have learned something and enjoyed it as well. Appreciate you. This is episode three of Mind the Game Evolution.

[JJ Redick]

Foreign.

[LeBron James]

Very much enjoyed the first episode. Absolutely. I'm gonna ask you a question and I. We can edit this out if need be. This is just. I just want to get the conversation started this way. That's great because we were just talking about young guys and I felt towards the end of my career, once I had figured the league out and I again figured out meaning like I had a job, you know what I mean? Not like I'm an all star, but once I figured the league out, I felt like I could tell within two or Three days of being around a young guy, whether he was going to be all right in the league.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

Do you have that too? Do you sense that?

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, absolutely.

[LeBron James]

What are the markers for you where you say this guy's.

[JJ Redick]

This guy's going to be good coaches and veterans being able to get on them and there's no snickering, there's no back talk, there's no man, all of that. It's just almost. They almost look like. Just keep on coming with it because I want to see how much I can. I want to see how much just keep on, keep on. Because I'm absorbing everything. That's when, you know, like, oh, he's. He's going to be in this league for a long time.

[LeBron James]

One of the things that I always noticed was, and I wasn't perfect at this when I was like a rookie, especially there, there's an element of fear, meaning once we step on the court, I'm not scared.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right, right.

[LeBron James]

But there's an element of fear. Like I need to be in the training room on time.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[LeBron James]

I need to do all the lifts.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

That my strength coach is telling me to do. If my PD got player development guy, my PD guys telling me, be on the court at 10:00 for an 11:00 practice, that guy's there at 9:55 ready for sure. It's. It's. It's like the small stuff.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, it's the small stuff. It's is a small stuff.

[LeBron James]

We are recording this on Thursday, opening day of the NCAA tournament official opening day. I do not count the play in.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, I don't. I don't count the play in.

[LeBron James]

Not because.

[JJ Redick]

Not because I've been in the play in a couple times now as an NBA player, but I do not count the play.

[LeBron James]

I don't get. It's like it's not official because you're still playing into the tournament. Yeah. And your high school coach just got a big win about an hour ago.

[JJ Redick]

Yes, he did.

[LeBron James]

What did you learn from him?

[JJ Redick]

Oh, my goodness. I think the number one thing that I learned from him right away is how to not only approach the game, but also how to think the game and also play at a level that was a lot harder and determined than the AAU tournaments that I was playing in beforehand. I got to coach Dan Barrot my ninth grade year, so my first year of high school. First of all, back to the fear thing. When you go from middle school to high school, you already terrified of what lies ahead. You don't Know what to expect. You know, obviously, you know, in Ohio you have sixth, seventh and eighth in middle school. So you have that feeling coming out of elementary, going to the middle school from the fifth to sixth grade. You have that fear of older people in the schools and how is it going to affect you and things of that nature. And then you go to the high school and you see, you know, kids with beards and, you know, teachers, they just look so much more massive, you know. And I'm going to a coach that is a former college basketball coach. And you hear the stories, I mean, you know, firsthand probably, or maybe you don't, because you were great so you maybe had to have to do everything. But, you know, I heard, you know, the stories of like, you know, 5am Wake ups to go run the mile or, you know, this was your high school coach. This is my high school coach. This is my high school coach. This is my high school coach. You hear the stories of like, you know, one mistake, everyone's going to run until the coach gets tired. And in my head I'm like, how in the hell does a coach get tired if he's not running? So you like terrified of all of this, you know, so the one thing back to your question that I learned from Coach D is that we're going to practice perfection every single day. Every single day. He always used to tell us the game, the practices are going to be way freaking harder than the games. And you don't understand that every time the coach said get on the line, that's a universal, that's a universal word right there or universal term right there, get on the line. You know, that's the last thing you want to hear as a basketball player to get on the line. But he was, he was super strict. He was super demanding. He would get in your face, call you out of your name. There were kids whose parents used to come to practice that he would call them out of their names right in front of their parents. My sophomore year, my freshman year, we win the state championship, we go 27 0. I was MVP of the tournament. Obviously Maverick was our captain. My freshman year, my sophomore year, the first practice I was, came in as projected number one player in the state of Ohio. I was projected to be all American as a sophomore, projected to be Mr. Basketball as a sophomore, which had never been done in Ohio high school history. And the first practice we had, our sophomore year at the winning state championship, I did absolutely nothing wrong coming out of football. He kicked me out of practice, he kicked me out of Practice. I had no idea why the. He kicked me out of practice. And I think he was just setting the tone for the season. Yeah, like wherever the. Or wherever you think you are. Yeah. I've heard all of this stuff about how great you are and things that. Nope, I'm a humble your ass right now. He kicked me out of practice. And the last thing he said to me when he kicked me out of practice, first day of practice, he said, best sophomore in the country, my ass.

[LeBron James]

I love that. I love that. Setting the tone right away.

[JJ Redick]

Best sophomore in the country, my ass. And kick me out of practice.

[LeBron James]

I. I actually think I had a healthy level of respect. So I played varsity as a freshman. But actually my school, middle school was sixth through ninth grade.

[Unknown Guest]

Really?

[LeBron James]

So I didn't even go to high school yet.

[JJ Redick]

Hold on, say that again.

[LeBron James]

So it was sixth through ninth grade.

[Unknown Host]

We didn't have space. They had space in the high school.

[LeBron James]

So the year after I left, they built a second high school split into two. They moved down a division, that sort of thing. Right, right. So I'm coming off 8th grade, I start JV. I grew 7 inches that year. I learned how to shoot without my left thumb.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

Started shooting a real jump shot. I go to AAU Nationals in Florida. Average like 35 a game. So I'm coming into freshman year with a decent level of confidence. And I knew my high school coach was tough because my JB coach was so tough.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

But I was brash and cocky. You know the kid you saw at Duke early on, I was that kid. I was that kid.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And we were playing preseason. We were just like doing pickup. So we would do these stations where you had like 30 seconds to a minute on. So 30 seconds to a minute on wall sits. 30 seconds to a minute on D slides with bands. 30 seconds to a minute on jumping jacks with a weight. Like all this stuff. And we do that for like 30 to 45 minutes. And then we'd play pickup. So there was this senior named Kevin Conley. And he was good, but I also played his position. And he hadn't started the year before, so he was like very much wanted the starting position. So we were playing pickup. And truthfully, Kevin, I was busting your ass. I was busting his ass.

[JJ Redick]

No take.

[Unknown Guest]

Hey.

[LeBron James]

And he said. And I started yapping off. And he said to me, he said, I'm tell you right now, shut the fuck up. And he gave me the look, mind you, I'm. I'm my size, but 155 pounds so I, I was like, oh, he's going to kick my ass. And I didn't say anything. We checked the ball up. As soon as somebody passed it, he just popped me in the face. Right. My jaw still pops to this day. And pretty much from that day on, I had a healthy level of fear for high school. A healthy level of fear. Do you, do you think there's anything for you? I know for me like I played for Coach K, I played for a great high school coach, I played for Boo Williams and au, we talked about our coaching and how important that was to us last time. Do you think for you there was anything transferable from what you learned in high school to what you had to do in the NBA?

[JJ Redick]

Especially early on from a coach's perspective.

[LeBron James]

Or just on the court, on the court being, being a player on the court.

[JJ Redick]

No.

[LeBron James]

Totally different game.

[JJ Redick]

It was a totally different game. But the nuance and the fundamentals and the things that was being taught to me as an 18 year old, I kind of had already knew a lot of that shit. I mean, it's weird to kind of say, because you feel like when you get to the NBA you're going to learn so much more. Which I eventually did, you know, and I think that just came with like, we always talk about, you know, experience. The best teacher in life is experience, you know. But when I, when I got to the NBA, the biggest adjustment I had was literally just going from like, oh shit, I don't have to go to class every day, you know. You know, I'm going from 27 game season to now 82. So like, oh shit, like after 27 games in the NBA, you know, around about 32 games, I'm like, I'm exhausted, you know. So now like, what, what, what can I do to get the, get the energy back going? But as far as when I stepped out on the floor, there wasn't too much of an adjustment. I felt like I was physical enough. I felt like I had the size, I had the speed, obviously I had the athleticism, obviously. You know, you have the, you know, some of the vet tricks and things of that nature, how to get away with certain things that I had to kind of learn and whatever the case may be. But. And then I was thrown around with many positions my rookie year too. Like at one point I was, I was a two guard. At one point, you know, my first game in Sacramento, I was coming off floppies.

[LeBron James]

Oh, we'll get to that in a bit.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, you know, we'll get to that in A bit.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

And what can I say? No, we know we do make a change or whatever. Now I'm the point guard. It's like, you know, which is one natural position for me, but also not a natural position. Like, I love to pass the ball, I love to bring the ball up, but I've never really started at the point guard position, so it's still very different. Different, but I was able to just kind of seamlessly, kind of just move right on in.

[LeBron James]

Figure it out on the fly a little bit.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Figure it out on the fly.

[LeBron James]

With the tournament going on right now. Have you. I rewatched episode one, and I. You talking about not going up to Ohio State for parties. Down to Ohio State for parties. I was like, all right. I wonder if he ever thought to himself this time of year. Yeah, I wonder what it's like to play in March Madness.

[JJ Redick]

Absolutely.

[LeBron James]

You have.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

21 years later, you're still thinking about it every year. Yeah. This is the only time, though, I.

[LeBron James]

Was thinking about all the stuff you've experienced in basketball, but you haven't experienced that.

[JJ Redick]

This is the only time. March Madness right now is the only time I think about playing college basketball for 21 straight years. I don't watch much college basketball this year. I watched a ton of it, obviously, because Bronnie's in college, you know, so I was there watching the game, but it's just. It doesn't translate for me. It frustrates me. My high blood pressure picks up. I'm a black man, and high blood pressure just not good for us. So I try to stay away from it, but I love basketball, so I find myself watching it anyways. But I literally, before we came in here, like you said, Duquesne won their game. Big shout out to the Dukes coach, Coach D, my best friend, Drew Joyce. Right after the game, I was watching Illinois vs. Morehead State, scouting, because that's who they play next.

[LeBron James]

And you're going to give them notes?

[JJ Redick]

Already did. Already sent notes already. I got to watch, like, a quarter, third, third, or three fourths of the game before we started, and I've already sent notes. I, I, I'm a, I'm a junkie, man.

[LeBron James]

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I'm well aware of that.

[Unknown Host]

Well aware.

[LeBron James]

I want to talk about spacing today. Do you, you, you mentioned coming off floppy in that Sacramento game, your very first game.

[JJ Redick]

Do you.

[LeBron James]

Do you specifically remember your two. First, first two baskets of your career?

[JJ Redick]

I remember my first one.

[LeBron James]

Okay.

[JJ Redick]

My, my first basket was coming off of Floppy Action. And I faded to the corner by our bench and received a ball over the top and hit a hit a 17, 18 foot.

[LeBron James]

First of all, it's hilarious that you were running floppy.

[JJ Redick]

It's hilarious.

[LeBron James]

On that one, you came off and took the 1 dribble baseline. And C Booze after he set the screen, kind of backed up into the pocket around the other. There was like space, a little space. On the second one, you came off the other side and curled and Ricky Davis hit you at the elbow. And I had this screenshot on my phone and it's Z on the left block, C Boos on the right block. Darius Miles spotting up from about 17ft at the right wing. Ish, but not really space.

[JJ Redick]

Not really space.

[LeBron James]

And then Ricky Davis is just standing there at the top of the key. It's like literally eight or nine people. Eight or nine people all just right there.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, right there.

[LeBron James]

And then you drove back and hit a little fall way. Going left.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

When did you start to feel like the spacing was changing in the NBA?

[JJ Redick]

You know, that's a good question. I'm trying to think. I think the spacing started to change in the NBA. I think Stan Van Gundy had a lot to do with it. You know, now that I think about it. And I'm thinking because I was in the east and obviously, you know, they had a lot of spacing, you know, in Sacramento in the early 2000s, but it wasn't a lot of spacing. Maybe they just had some shooting. Obviously, Mike Bibb could shoot the ball, you know, you know, Peja was shooting the ball.

[LeBron James]

They ran corner splits.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, they run corner splits. They, you know, you know, Vladdy, you know, could play the elbow, could play the corner, could hit, you know, the three at a time. You know, see, Webb from time to time was spaced a little bit, but he was more in the post. You know, Bobby Jackson would fly off, obviously, for shots. But, you know, I don't. I believe Stan with Dwight, you know, kind of in that 070809 kind of range, they started to change it a lot. You know, I hadn't seen that much space because I played against the Detroit Pistons. And obviously you have, you know, you had rip on his floppy down action, you know, flying off the floppy down or the two chests or whatever the case may be. But with Stan, I think he saw what he had in Dwight and he started to build that team around him to like, I want nothing but space, you know, and we saw that. We saw it when Rashar Lewis got On that team. We saw it when he do. Turkoglu got there, you know, and then added Jameer, you know, and added just a bunch of space. You as well. You as well. Like, took a while.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

You know, it took a while to use your superpowers. I tell you that. It took a while for you to use your superpowers or them to use your superpowers for the better of the team. But, you know, you know, even where Ray Allen was on Boston, you know, in 08, it wasn't. It still wasn't a lot of space out there. KG was posting up.

[LeBron James]

Ronda was not a shooter.

[JJ Redick]

Ronda was not a shooter. Tony Allen wasn't a shooter.

[LeBron James]

Right.

[JJ Redick]

You know, PP was playing two bigs.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

PP was a three level scorer, but.

[LeBron James]

They were playing two bigs a lot.

[JJ Redick]

They were playing two bigs a lot. You know, if it was KG and Perk or KG and Big baby or whatever the case may be, you know, Detroit was still playing two bigs even when being with the Chicago, you know, they brought in. They brought in Chris Weber, you know, so they were playing two bigs as well. You know, I feel like, you know, Miami was still playing two bigs. They was playing Shaq when he was there, along with you, Donnis and Zoe when Zo came back. I feel like Orlando, man, Orlando kind of was the. The first. I want to say the first because they're obviously. Yeah.

[LeBron James]

I think the precursor was definitely, in my opinion, the Suns. Right. The Suns were the first with Dan, Tony.

[JJ Redick]

With Dan, Tony Nash.

[LeBron James]

Marion at the 4, Amari at the 5.

[JJ Redick]

He wasn't a spacer either, but he, but he was so athletic. He had so much speed that he created space.

[LeBron James]

Yes.

[JJ Redick]

You know, there's.

[LeBron James]

They're. They're. We're gonna get to this.

[JJ Redick]

Their pace.

[LeBron James]

They're gonna get to this.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

But it's funny because with the. With the Magic.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

I'm not sure that that was the intention. Now, it ultimately may have played out that.

[Unknown Guest]

Right, right, right, right.

[LeBron James]

But Tony Bati hurt his shoulder guarding Dwight in preseason and we tried Turk at the 4, right. In the preseason games and he refused. He's like, fuck this. I'm not guarding, you know, I'm not guarding for she. Wallace.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

So. So Rashard as a. As a good teammate and a true professional, unlike Turk, he's like. He's like, fuck it, I'll do it. Right?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And that. And then all of a sudden it created an advantage and we did a plan. You guys in 09 Eastern Conference finals. And by the way, I played nine minutes, nine minutes that series, second quarter, second quarter of game two. But I got to watch some awesome basketball. And it's weird. I, I, I've rewatched some of that series and it is so apparent that no matter what you did, no matter, matter what y'all did, we just had an advantage.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

The whole season we geared our team up to play Boston. Everything was geared to play Boston. Everything. We, we never practiced anything besides two bigs, a point guard, a small enough and a small, small forward and a shooting guard and then fuck, you guys win. And it's like we've geared up all, you know, we had Big Z and Sverjau, myself, Delonte and Mo Williams. I mean, you guys are out there with Dwight Rashard. He do Jameer Beatrice Pietrice, Courtney Lee. Courtney Lee. You guys are out there with like what the league is to now. The league now is like long wings, shooters and a guy that can screen, roll, lob. And then you add on even more with Dwight because he could occasionally post up a small.

[LeBron James]

I think too, you know what, looking back on that team, that I think was so important because I talk about this all the time now. Jameer Nelson could shoot threes out of pick and roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

It's an important thing.

[JJ Redick]

It is a very important thing for many reasons.

[LeBron James]

It, first of all, it unlocks everyone's offensive game. If you can shoot threes off the dribble, it unlocks your game. Absolutely. But also just for the offense. Now all of a sudden, you're forced to make a decision in a Jameer Nelson, Dwight Howard, pick and roll. Hido Turkogu.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

If you decide to go under him because you don't want him getting to his right hand, you're, you have to make a decision now. He's going to, he's going to shoot it.

[JJ Redick]

He's going to shoot it.

[LeBron James]

So we would run that angle. Pick and roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

We'd have a shooter in the left corner.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

Turked going to his right hand, DWight Roland and two shooters and two shooters.

[JJ Redick]

Where's the help coming from? And you can't, you can't switch it because Dwight's going to bury you, hit you with 19 elbows and he doesn't care about getting one or two files off the elbows, but he's going to dunk you in the rim. This is like super duper man, Dwight at the time.

[LeBron James]

I rewatched game five the other day.

[JJ Redick]

And I've never watched the series, by.

[LeBron James]

The way, you Haven't. I'm very curious to get your thoughts and what you remember about that series specifically because this is what I remember. And I was like, I'm gonna go watch.

[JJ Redick]

What was the series?

[LeBron James]

Four two.

[JJ Redick]

Four two.

[LeBron James]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Okay.

[LeBron James]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Four two.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Oh, yeah. I didn't talk to the media at the game six. I was pissed. I was pissed. I took a shower and got shot on the bus.

[LeBron James]

I remember that now.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, I was pissed.

[LeBron James]

Game five. I was watching the fourth quarter. Literally your offense, you didn't match up Hunt. For the first part of the fourth quarter, you had two bigs in the dunker spot. Either dunker spot, you had Mo or Delonte. At one point it was Wally Zerbiak spotting up.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And you would post up Mikel petras at like 19ft and then try to go one on one. It was really interesting to watch that versus spread pick and roll with shooting in spacing. It was really interesting.

[JJ Redick]

And by the way, how the is he functioning, by the way?

[LeBron James]

I'm. This is not. This is not like a knock on Mike Brown at all. Like, I'm not saying that. It was just what we were doing was so different at the time.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And it wasn't like the next year, everybody's like, oh, we're going to try to emulate what Orlando did.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[LeBron James]

2011. I'll never forget this game. We played against the Minnesota Timberwolves in our new arena. And that's when we had Ryan Anderson and Rashard and we would get to our spread pick and roll. And it didn't matter where Ryan or Rashard was. They would tag Dwight with Kevin Love.

[JJ Redick]

The four man, no matter where he was.

[LeBron James]

No matter where he was. So if he's the high guy, he's.

[JJ Redick]

Taking them all the way to the.

[LeBron James]

Rim on the double side. They're tagging him at the rim. And Ryan and Richard are just sitting there teeing them up. It's bizarre.

[JJ Redick]

It's super bizarre.

[LeBron James]

I'm not going to gas you up. I'm not going to gas you up. I'm going to say one thing, though, real quick. You average 38. 8 and 8 in that series with that offense and that spacing.

[JJ Redick]

With no space.

[LeBron James]

With no space. It was wild.

[JJ Redick]

It is what to think back on. Like I said, I have not watched that series since it happened. And to think that I damn near average 48 and 8 in a series with no space is. And I obviously, if I caught a good heater, I could make a couple threes in a row. Whatever the case.

[LeBron James]

May be, but that wasn't.

[JJ Redick]

That wasn't my thing. That wasn't my thing. I lived in the paint, ran the post.

[LeBron James]

You didn't have your signature moved in?

[JJ Redick]

I didn't have my signature moved in, no. I was not my. I was not a disciplined jump shooter at that point in time.

[LeBron James]

Interesting. What do you mean by that?

[JJ Redick]

If I was, I would shoot fadeaways for no reason. I would be off balance for no reason. I would make shots more difficult for no reason. And I envied guys that can go straight up and down or collect, shoot the same shot every time. And it was just discipline. I was so athletic that I could will myself. I. There's, like. Sometimes there's like, old clips of me that I watch or come across my timeline on social.

[LeBron James]

Yeah, hold on, bro. It's okay.

[JJ Redick]

I see the clips sometimes.

[LeBron James]

No, no, no.

[JJ Redick]

I don't just go online and look up LeBron James highlights.

[LeBron James]

We all watch our own highlights on YouTube. LeBron, I'm telling you, you've never gone on YouTube.

[JJ Redick]

Yes, I have. Of course I have. I said from time to time they come through. I. Of course I have. Especially. Oh, by the way, the number one reason you do that is when you hit, like, a little slump or whatever.

[LeBron James]

Oh, yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Where's my game?

[LeBron James]

Where's my game at?

[JJ Redick]

Oh, YouTube is the perfect place to.

[LeBron James]

Find your March 2018 at Charlotte. 27 points. Type it in. Let me see my game. We've all done it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, we all been there.

[JJ Redick]

For sure.

[LeBron James]

We've all done it. When you guys got together in Miami.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

The conversations with Chris about his role, but also the decision to sort of move him to the five, which, by the way, was not right away.

[JJ Redick]

No, it wasn't like, was there push.

[LeBron James]

Back on that at the time. Do you remember? And like those conversations? Because, you know, I know UD was. Was there. Joel Anthony was there.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, My first year, Big Z was there.

[LeBron James]

And Eric Danpier.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, I'm. I'm gonna tell you when it all changed. Obviously, my first year there, you know, played great basketball, got all the way to the finals. Losing the finals, I play like spo is the reason why we were a better team and our team was more assembled properly. That summer, he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly.

[LeBron James]

Oh, interesting.

[JJ Redick]

When we lost to Dallas, he went to Oregon and hung out with Chip Kelly and learned to spread offense and tried to figure out if he could translate that to basketball and don't know the super conversations that him and Chip had. But I know when he came back to us. He knew in order for us to reach our potential, one, I had to be fucking 10 times better than I was in that previous June finals. But Chris Bosh had to go to the 5. And CB, being who he is, there was no pushback. There was no pushback. He knew in order for us to reach our potential, that CB would have to go to the 5. And we had to spread. We had to. He had to start working on his corner three faithfully every day after practice, corner three every day at the practice. We're going to post you up, we're going to get you, your elbow catches, offense going to run through you at times. But in order to bring, you know, the Tyson Chandlers out of the paint, in order to bring the Roy Hibberts out of the paint, in order to bring Tim Duncan out of the paint at times, in order to bring Kevin Garnett out of the paint, you got to hit these corner threes. You got to at least be a threat. And spo. SPO knew he had that. He had that vision. He went and learned. He said the way I. He said the way I coached in that finals versus Dallas, unacceptable. I told myself, the way I played, unacceptable. And he came back with vengeance. And I was all. I was locked the fucking in from. From start to finish. But it was spoke. I had a question about the boss.

[LeBron James]

Bosch spacing, but because you just said that. Was that the low point for you in your career?

[JJ Redick]

Oh, for sure.

[LeBron James]

2011.

[JJ Redick]

The lowest.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, the lowest. Yeah, the lowest.

[LeBron James]

What is the Bosch spacing? What did that sort of unlock? I'm curious, like, what were the actions?

[JJ Redick]

What.

[LeBron James]

What was the.

[JJ Redick]

The.

[LeBron James]

The two man game.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

What were the reads?

[JJ Redick]

The cutting slot cut. The slot cuts. The slot cuts. The slot cuts. It unlocked. The slot cuts. It unlocked exactly what myself and D. Wade thrive on. Dribble penetration, slot cutting, pick a roll, happens you tag, slot cut. Yeah, it unlocked all that. And we all know how great D. Wade is on the baseline. It's hard to cut behind the defense when X5 is standing there the whole time because, you know, the offensive five is there, you know, so, you know, you hit me on the pocket pass, now, you know, I get the pocket pass from Chalmers or from Norris Cole, you know, and now Bosh is in a strong corner. Are you going to leave him or not? If you do, he gonna tag you. And if not, when I roll now you got x3 or x2 tagging on me on the roll. And nine times out of 10, that, that. That Guy that's playing the elbow that's supposed to exit the corner, he's xing out to the three point line and D. Wade's slashing right behind him. It just, it unlocked so much for our offense and it gave myself and D. Wade in transition. We had this thing called the Mack Truck Lane. So from. Basically from the block to the block. So San Francisco, we stand on the free throw line. Yeah. You got one block on one side, one block on this side.

[LeBron James]

I can picture a basketball court.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, we're doing for the viewers. I'm not questioning JJ's expertise.

[LeBron James]

No, I know what you're saying.

[JJ Redick]

First day of training camp, we had that whole thing taped off. The bigs were not allowed to run in between the Mack Truck Lane. From the first day of training camp all the way to game one, prohibited. You're not allowed. You gotta. And if. And if I'm bringing the ball up and the big is behind me, he can't cross the court. You have to run wide behind. This is all. This is all SPO is like, he's that damn good.

[LeBron James]

Some Twitter sleuth will correct me on this and I will accept it if I'm wrong, but in my mind, when I think of five out or delay, I think of the Miami Heat with Chris Bosh as. Maybe it wasn't the originator, but the first time I'm like, oh, this is. This is different. And this is happening was the Miami Heat with Chris Bosh.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And it changed everything.

[JJ Redick]

It changed everything. Changed the whole team. Changed the whole team. Then we added Ray Shane, added Shane, added Mike Miller, we added the spacing. And CB could pass, he could rebound and push. It wasn't many fives at that time. That was rebounding and pushing the break. You see it all the time now, right?

[LeBron James]

You see bam. Bam does it.

[JJ Redick]

Bam does it all the time.

[Unknown Guest]

Yoke, of course.

[JJ Redick]

MVP of the league. Yoke does it. It's like CB was pushing the break. Okay. If he ain't have nothing early in Trans, boom, right to a dho, second side swing. Swing. Like he was a smart. He was just smart. But I mean, obviously when you move from one position where you're so dominant, you think of CB in Toronto, where he mainly played the four almost, probably 95% of the time, played the four on average 25 and 10 or 12.

[LeBron James]

The ball exclusively went through him in the mid post every single time on either block.

[JJ Redick]

Really?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

But it's. It's remarkable that he changed that.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, he changed it.

[LeBron James]

The slot cut can you explain the timing, the play, how it works.

[JJ Redick]

We actually.

[LeBron James]

Because it's. By the way, it is a. It's now part of like every team's vernacular. And every team runs it now. It becomes programmed into everybody's reads in pick and roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

And it's now is. It used to not be a live cut. I go back and watch college basketball and there's so many fluff cuts or cuts that don't do anything. It's like, why are you making a cut towards the basket and you're not even looking at the damn ball, you know? So the slot cut. I started to make the slot cut when Mike Brown took over for us in Cleveland. We actually used to have a play when we got Mo Williams. Mo Williams was one fast, quick off pick and rolls. And another guy that could shoot the three off the pick and roll. We would run angle. Mo Williams would have the ball left slot. We would have a shooter in a strong corner going same side as him. And either Varajao or Z comes at the step up. You know what? Take that back. I'm sorry, no. Strong side shooter. Strong side shooter in the weak corner only. Mo's job was to race the biggest race the big, get around the big, get around to the baseline. And at the same time, as soon as I would see Mo race the big to the baseline, Anderson, Varajao or Z will come set a whip screen for me blind. The guy that's guarding me and the corner man couldn't leave because it was a corner shooter and I was slot cut at the same time. Easy clip. We could find that clip easy and Mo would drop it to me and I would either dunk at home or finish it or whatever the case may be. We actually put that in one of our. That was one of our ATOs. And then when I got to Miami, I started to see a lot of guys peeking, a lot of. Lot of guys with D. Wade had a ball. Obviously he attracted a lot of eyes. He's a driver. Whatever case may be. Instead of me standing out and shooting threes, which at times I wasn't always comfortable with shooting threes. I would see guys peeking, and as soon as I would see my guy turn his head, I was slot cut.

[LeBron James]

This is part of the reason it's really hard to guard. Spread, pick and roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

And we'll put the clips up as well.

[JJ Redick]

But.

[LeBron James]

If the X's here are the offensive player. Right?

[JJ Redick]

Correct.

[LeBron James]

And you're running this angle, pick and roll.

[JJ Redick]

Correct.

[LeBron James]

And let's say the big is in A drop. Okay. And this is the guard. This is the guard. Right, so if this guard turns the corner here.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

Right on the big. Damian Lillard does this better than anybody.

[JJ Redick]

Especially going left.

[LeBron James]

Especially going left.

[JJ Redick]

Right.

[LeBron James]

This guy has to make some sort of decision.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[JJ Redick]

He's coming to 2, 9.

[LeBron James]

This guy has to get into an exposition. And who the is guarding this guy?

[Unknown Guest]

Nobody.

[LeBron James]

Nobody, Right?

[JJ Redick]

Nobody. So that's the position I'm in a lot.

[LeBron James]

The slot cut.

[JJ Redick]

The slot, yeah.

[LeBron James]

The other one is this. Which? Golden State. When I think of this cut, I think of Golden State, which is essentially same formation. Here's the defense, Right. All right, so you put two on the ball on Steph Curry and Draymond.

[JJ Redick]

Green, which is the worst thing you can do, Right?

[LeBron James]

Right. This guy's gonna have to be the low man. So Draymond rolls, Steph hits him right here. This guy drops. What's gonna happen right here, LeBron, as Draymond Green takes a dribble into the paint.

[JJ Redick]

It's a lob. It's a lob every single time. And it's a lob every single time. And.

[Unknown Host]

And you.

[LeBron James]

And you can't. You. You literally can't put two on the ball.

[JJ Redick]

You can't. See, everyone thinks that putting two on the ball takes Steph out of the play. The problem that you don't understand is that you're now unlocking Draymond's superpower offensively. Draymond's superpower offensively is the four on three. Game. You put two on the ball now Draymond has is four on three, and I'm going to have Iguodala in the past. Now, Wigs and Kumonga, they're going to be in that opposite corner. And if you help up too early, there's going to be a lob. And that is demoralizing. And the number one thing, it's so much momentum, a half court lob. So much momentum when we used to.

[LeBron James]

That's the worst court I've ever seen, but I'm going to do the same formation real quick, same set. So, like when we used to teach or learn how to guard, spread, pick and roll, right? We would. You would do this drill. I'm sure you did this drill. So, you know, here's the defense, right?

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

There's the defense. And as this guy comes off.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

The low man pulls over. Here's the basket. The low man pulls over. This guy drops.

[JJ Redick]

Drops. Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And the drill was always this. This guy, the ball handler, would skip it, skip a Corner and you would literally get back Y. But nobody does that anymore.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

They hit the short roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And the short rollers. Now in today's NBA, like if you're a big coming into the NBA right now, what's your player development program look like? It's literally playing out of the short roll. Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

Playing out of the short roll.

[LeBron James]

If you're Jared Allen. Jared Allen the last five years, what is he doing?

[JJ Redick]

Short roll.

[LeBron James]

Short roll.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

I mean, I mean especially with Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, they're going to attract so much. You have to be able to play out of the short roll. And when you play out of short roll, it's not for you to score. Yes, you have the ability to score, but you have to read the game. You have to read the game.

[LeBron James]

I think about Chris Bosh and it makes me think of Chet Holmgren a little bit.

[JJ Redick]

Mh.

[LeBron James]

You guys probably run different stuff, but in a way, what makes OKC so good is their ability to drive the basketball Y and then kick. And then drive the basketball and then kick. And they did this last year.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

This is how they played last year when they were 42 and 40 y. And then all of a sudden check comes in and it unlocks everything.

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[LeBron James]

In the same way. I'm not comparing Chet to Chris Bosh is like.

[JJ Redick]

But to unlock the most how you.

[LeBron James]

How you maximize the offense.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

You need Chet on that team for sure.

[JJ Redick]

No question about it.

[Unknown Guest]

He.

[JJ Redick]

He changes the dynam, the dynamic of everything. You know, they have. They have a one set that they run off of all free throws where Chet takes the ball out. They send two guys to the other end, both of them sit in the corner and Chet takes the ball out. And now Shay has got. He has it on the right wing or the left wing or whatever the case may be. And normally the X5 job is to load to the ball and stop Shay from driving the 45. Driving the slot. That's your job load. Get to the body load OKC now because there's another guy back there. They're fl. At the same time that the big is trying to load on Shay, there's a guard that's flaring Chet to the opposite slot. Do you know how hard that is? They're flaring a seven footer to the opposite slot. Right. I mean, there's ways to guard it. I'm not gonna say it right now because we may see him in the playoffs. I'm not going to give that coach there opportunity to prepare for it. But that's very difficult when you have a guy like Shay who's going to get to the line eight to 12 times a game and.

[Unknown Guest]

Or.

[JJ Redick]

Or J Dub, who's now turned into a gray.

[LeBron James]

Zach, he's a star.

[JJ Redick]

He's a star.

[LeBron James]

He's a star.

[JJ Redick]

I told him, too. I said, man, I said, boy, you. You out here killing. He's like, man, I had a hell of a summer because he came to me and said, you know, my younger brother played against Bonnie last night because his younger brother goes to Colorado.

[LeBron James]

Cody.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, Cody.

[JJ Redick]

And I was like. I said, that's crazy, man.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[JJ Redick]

I said, man, you. Hey, keep going, bro. You. You killing this. He was like, man, I had a hell of a something.

[LeBron James]

He's one of those guys. He's right now. Not many holes in his game.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[LeBron James]

He's pretty damn good at nearly everything. Yeah, he's one of those guys, you know, he's 22 now, I believe 23.

[JJ Redick]

That's it.

[LeBron James]

It's like in four or five years, you're like, oh, no, no. That guy has no holes in his game.

[JJ Redick]

Yeah, zero. Yeah, zero.

[LeBron James]

I want to. Before we talk more spacing, I want to touch on one last thing with the Heat, and that is. I feel like in the NBA, this, the. The phrase super team or the term super team is. Is a little bit. Bit of a misnomer because you can have. You can have a big three, Right. You still need four or five ancillary role players.

[JJ Redick]

Absolutely.

[LeBron James]

Star in their role and then compliment the stars.

[JJ Redick]

No question about it.

[LeBron James]

And it doesn't work. It doesn't work unless you have those guys. And you've lived it multiple times.

[JJ Redick]

I've lived it.

[Unknown Guest]

I've lived it.

[JJ Redick]

I mean, obviously my. My first year in Miami, yeah, we had a big three, and everyone said, it's a super team. Super team. The super team, that. But we had to build our team around all minimum guys, which was still okay. But we didn't fill out the complimentary guys enough. Yeah, we had Rio, we had Udonis, you know, but we didn't. We didn't have enough, as far as enough complimentary guys to actually make it all work. And we still made it to the finals. We still made it to the finals, and we still probably should have won the finals. But I still give credit. You. Listen, it is what it is. You. You win and you lose, and we lost. There's no. Dallas was fucking good. And they hit a stride at the right time. Dirk was unbelievable. But my second year, we was able to grab some Complimentary players and role players that really just. I'm talking about super superstars in their roles. And it goes back to my first year in Cleveland. My first year in Cleveland.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[JJ Redick]

We got Kevin out of a trade. We lost in the finals. We wasn't really whole to unlock everything. We wasn't whole enough to unlock everything. Then we was able to add Channing Frye, add Richard Jefferson to that second team, add those guys. And then the experience that we had from the year previously, you know, J.R. got better and shump, you know, and obviously we were healthier. You know, Kyrie goes down in the finals and, you know, busted kneecap. And Kevin obviously separated shoulder in year one. But you're absolutely right. The complimentary guys are ultimately the ones that will help you win the championship for sure.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[JJ Redick]

And classified as a real super team.

[LeBron James]

Right. So I think, you know, the goal of this show is to really just, like, talk about basketball. Right. I love it, and it's great.

[Unknown Host]

I love.

[LeBron James]

And I love it.

[JJ Redick]

I love it.

[LeBron James]

And I could do it all day, you know?

[JJ Redick]

Me too.

[LeBron James]

You know, we both live online. Let's be honest. We live online. We're well aware of all the, the discourse. I, I, I have to participate in the discourse. And I said this.

[JJ Redick]

I want to participate so much more.

[LeBron James]

I, I, I, I said this the other day. I was like, the discourse has a place, right? It provides a level of entertainment, and I get it. And I, I feel like sometimes I get annoyed at a couple keywords that get involved in discourse. And we're not going to do this every episode. We're not going to, we're not going to do this. But I just, on this point we're making about how a team works, there's the word important. Who's the more important player for the Boston Celtics? Who's the most important player for the Boston Celtics? I also get annoyed with the word pressure. Right? Those are the two words that drive me crazy. Pressure in particular, because if you've, if you've, like, been around, you know that most guys in the NBA put an insane amount of pressure on themselves. That's why we all have fucking anxiety. Like, we all put so much pressure on ourselves. And the important word bugs me because the best player is always the most important player. It's very hard to win in the NBA if the player who has the most outsized impact isn't at his best. And no offense, 2011 is a great example of that.

[JJ Redick]

I wasn't at my best.

[LeBron James]

You weren't at your best. And you Lost.

[JJ Redick]

If I played anything like I did in Eastern Conference finals, we win.

[LeBron James]

But you could have been at your best and the role players could have been bad. So, like, for me, this is why I get annoyed. Because I'm like, yeah, like, when I play in the Clippers, CP and Blake, they were the most important guys on our team. But DeAndre and I had a role. Jamal had a role, Matt Barnes had a role. Luke and Bob, Mute, the next two years, had a role. Like, we all had an important role. And guess what? We put a lot of pressure on ourselves to actually play well and actually contribute to winning.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[LeBron James]

And I feel like we live in this 2k world where we're like putting a roster together and it's like, who could. How can we put as many good players that don't even make sense together?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[LeBron James]

And it drives me crazy. It's like, what's wrong with this team? Well, it's very simple. Basketball is a very organic thing and the players and their skills have to compliment each other.

[JJ Redick]

Have to compliment each other.

[LeBron James]

And Chris Bosh is a great example of that. The sacrifice to figure out how can my skills. And maybe I have to develop some of those. You mentioned the three point shooting. How can I figure out how to complement. It's going to make me better, it's going to make LeBron better, it's going to make D. Wade better, and it's going to make our team better. And that's basketball.

[JJ Redick]

And that's basketball.

[Unknown Guest]

But that's.

[JJ Redick]

But that also comes from a. To go back to episode one, Basketball IQ as well. Him having the basketball IQ and the knowledge of saying, yeah, I could still be in Toronto averaging 25 and 12, but I didn't come here for that shit. I came here to win championships and we fucking lost in year one. What can I do to compliment my teammates? And what can I do to broaden my game out to where we don't lose in year two? Fucking talking about growth, mindset. And everyone's talking about, you know, Chris Bosh was this. Before that. No one ever asked Chris Bosh. No one ever asked Chris Bosh about how he feels. Everyone just speaks for him. No one asked him how he feels. He knew he was making a sacrifice. We all knew we was making sacrifices, but we knew what the fuck we all came together for, and that was to win championships. And that's what we did. No, for sure. Swing, swing, swing. Okay, drive the baseline. Okay.

[Unknown Guest]

Boom.

[JJ Redick]

I'm tapping the box. I'm tapping the box. Reverse the feet throw it back out. Okay, now I'm back. Okay, when we drive from the slot. Slot, man, you come drive from the slot. Guy drops down, he peels, Crack the big. Throw it back out. Now we back out. Like simple things.

[Unknown Guest]

Like simple things.

[JJ Redick]

Like.

[LeBron James]

Hey, guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast.

[Unknown Host]

If you like it, please hit that subscribe button.

[LeBron James]

Thank you.

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Sa.