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- [00:02]
LeBron James
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- [00:31]
JJ Redick
Did you. Did you have. Did you bring wine?
- [00:34]
LeBron James
Of course. Of course. I'm keeping this so consistent.
- [00:41]
JJ Redick
I'm not drinking alone.
- [00:43]
LeBron James
No, you're not going to drink alone. I'm about to open my right now.
- [00:58]
JJ Redick
Welcome to Mind The Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick. Brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. This is episode seven, breaking down the 2024 NBA playoffs so far. A lot is discussed in this episode. This was our first remote episode. We were not in person in Los Angeles like the previous six episodes, but luckily it still plays really well. We recorded this on Wednesday of last week. I want to say that again. We recorded this on Wednesday of last week. A lot we get into playoff reflections from LeBron James. We discuss a number of topics about the Minnesota Denver series and it's amazing how relevant all the things we discussed are, particularly after what has transpired and in the first two games. Just a couple actions that we discuss. One is called Spinulis Action. It is named after one of the best Greek players of all time, Vasilis Spinulis. Of course. Spanoulis helped defeat the US men's senior national team in the 2006 FIBA World Championships. In the semifinals. Spanulas action is very simple. There is a big that will catch the ball right here. There's a screener somewhere in the middle of the paint. A lot of times it will be initiated with a cut down underneath the basket. There's a rub screen. A rub screen is simply an off ball screen that leads to a dribble handoff. We talk about this action a lot with Jamal Murray getting to his left hand in the context of the Denver Nuggets. This is Jokic with the ball. This is Jamal Murray underneath the basket. He's cut through. This is Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon will set that rub screen, which is again just an off ball screen. That leads a lot of times to a dribble handoff. And Jamal Murray now coming to his left hand. Aaron Gordon would relocate to the dunker spot. Jamal Murray now can get to his left hand drive and Jokic right here in that short roll pocket area. Spanulas action. And as a reminder, the dunker spot is this area by these hash marks on the baseline. This is where Aaron Gordon hangs out all the time. There's also a ton of discussion on Jalen Brunson and his playoff performance so far, plus how good Tyrese Maxey was in that first round series. Another action we talk about is a double drag screen. A double drag screen is simply a high double pick and roll. A lot of times this first screener is a guard. He will set a screen on Tyrese Maxey, then the big will set a screen on Tyrese Maxey. And Maxi, with this squiggly line, can get downhill to his right hand. There's a ton of variations off double drag. We talked about this in episode six, the Klay Thompson double drag shallow. Lauri Markkanen double drag shallow. That was with an empty side, but for the most part, double drag. Two guys spaced to the corner and then a double high pick and roll. One of the things we discussed at the end is the Deutscher Chamber. We talk about what it's like in a playoff series getting hounded by elite defenders like Lou Dort, like Jaden McDaniels. And LeBron, of course, has faced that throughout his career. No better guy to hear from on that. As always, thank you for listening to Mind the Game. This is a little bit of a longer episode. Lots of stuff to get into. If you haven't already, please hit that subscribe button. This is Mind the game episode 7. First time doing this where we aren't in person. It's all good. It's all good. I feel like in episode five we talked a little bit about the playoffs. I want to revisit some of that conversation, but I also want to talk about what has happened already and what we think might happen in this year's playoffs. Before we do that, though, I'm just curious about your emotions right now. I was thinking about it today and I was looking back at like every single year. The common emotions when the season ended and some unique emotions depending on which team I was on. You've obviously won a championships. I don't know what those emotions are like, but. What, What? Can you just describe what the end of the season is like?
- [05:48]
LeBron James
Uh, well, look, can we cheers first before we.
- [05:52]
JJ Redick
Right. My bad.
- [05:53]
LeBron James
Can we cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Um. Shit. Where am I emotionally right now? I don't know. To be honest, I have no idea where I am emotionally right now, you know, obviously, you know, going against the defending champions in the first round is always going to be a difficult challenge. We knew that coming into it. But fuck, we had so many opportunities, man, you know, and to lose in five, two of them being game winners by, you know, Jamal, you know, his greatness, you know, but we had so many opportunities, obviously being up, you know, 20, you know, in game, game two, and they're building and losing that game and having so many opportunities in other games, you just feel like shit. If one play here, one play there, you know, could have made a hell of a difference. But, you know, when you're playing against a team like that, you have zero room for error. And I believe we made too many errors in some of the games. Like, I mean, I've seen some crazy ass stat about like the minutes that we were leading in the series compared to losing in the series. But we both know that's a little bit of fool's gold because most playoff games come down to one or two, three or four possessions, you know, and if you're not able to capitalize off those possessions or make plays during those possessions, then that's how you lose games. So, you know, emotionally, I feel like we was like right there, obviously in every game to be able to steal a game. But also at the same time, you know, we were. And that's why we lost the series and shit hurts. Obviously, you know, being a competitor, I am competitor. You are. You've been in multiple series in your career as well. But fuck, man, I feel like, you know, a couple plays here, a couple plays there, you know, we could have won the series, but the better team won. The better team won for sure. Give credit where credit is due.
- [07:41]
JJ Redick
I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I want to go back to the singular play thing in a second, but I was thinking about the comedown of the season and I was having a conversation with someone who's worked in the NBA a long time. A couple weeks ago we were talking about the stress levels of different positions within the NBA, right. Front office, coaching players, all that. And I feel like as a player, you're always on edge during the season.
- [08:13]
LeBron James
Always.
- [08:15]
JJ Redick
There's no, like, comfort level, the intensity even just like going to dinner with friends. You're still like, wired, thinking about the game.
- [08:27]
LeBron James
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [08:29]
JJ Redick
And then, and I think when the season ends, that was always the weirdest transition. There's certainly sometimes anger, there's certainly sadness, like those emotions are there. But it's like, I know this Sounds fucking weird, man. But sometimes when the season would end, I would be like, okay, I need to figure out how I can re enter society. Cause I've had to be on for the last seven, eight months.
- [08:56]
LeBron James
Seven, eight, nine months. Yep. For sure. Yep. You're absolutely right, man. And you know, it's getting readjusted to what reality actually really is, you know, is always difficult after the season because like you said, you've been, you've been in such a, you know, bubble, you know, for seven, eight months. Whatever the case, however long the season was, that getting re acclimated to actuality society is always a transition.
- [09:24]
JJ Redick
Do you, do you approach this, these type of off seasons differently with USA Basketball coming up?
- [09:31]
LeBron James
Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, it's gonna be a little bit different, you know, for me, probably over like the last four to five years. I've kind of after the season try to give my body at least two months of like no basketball. You know, I'm still doing, you know, like the yogas and the Pilates and you know, walking around, still being active and stretching and all that type of shit. But as far as I've tried to get my body like too much, just I don't want to be on the basketball court at all actually like training. But it's challenging now because it's, it's May 1st and, and in two months training camp actually starts in Vegas. And I don't want to go into training camp doing not nothing on the court for two months. So I'm going to kind of switch it up a little bit. I'm not going to be, you know, going crazy with my, with my training, whatever the case may be. I'll probably take the month of May off, give my body an opportunity to rest. And then probably around the first or second week of June, I'll start to kind of get back into the game a little bit, get, you know, start getting some routine shots up, getting a feel for the ball. So now I got the feeble ball I got to work with too. So that's a little different. But you know, just get my body re acclimated to just some of the movements that you just, you never do in a regular day to day basis as far as when you're doing, you know, workouts. So yeah, I'll switch it up a little bit.
- [10:55]
JJ Redick
I would always do the same thing. Six to eight weeks depending on, you know, when the season, obviously the years I made the finals, conference finals, those two years, my break from basketball was a little bit shorter, but I'VE kept my body going. The thing that I realized, though, when I got older is, like, I can't turn it off, because once I turn it off, once I turn the faucet off, the water's never coming back.
- [11:18]
LeBron James
It's always.
- [11:19]
JJ Redick
So I became even more diligent in those, like, in the basketball breaks about, like, my lifts, my Pilates, my conditioning, all the mobility stuff. I was working on, you know, physical therapy, whatever I need work on. Like, if I actually do take time off and do nothing, like, I'm just gonna be done. Like, that's the reality. There were some singular plays in that Denver series, for sure. And look, we have committed, I think, committed, and maybe we haven't been perfect, but we have committed to avoiding or at least trying to, the discourse. I am, of course, on the other side of this, working in media, so I see everything right. And a lot of it's because it's you guys. Honestly, a lot of it is blaming someone, blaming this player for this play or this player for this performance. I get it, man. Like, it's part of the job. I understand that. I think what you said is important. And this is not an excuse for the Lakers. It's not. What you said is important. Denver is the better team. As an analyst, I would have told you that yesterday. I would have told you that four months ago. Hey, LeBron, I think Denver's a better team than you guys. Like, I would just be honest with you. I, I. You have played them two years in a row. We, we have spent some time on Jokic. He's certainly part of the puzzle, a big part of the puzzle. What makes the Denver Nuggets puzzle so hard to solve?
- [12:58]
LeBron James
I think, you know, obviously it starts with Joker, obviously. But I don't think Jamal Murray gets enough credit, you know? You know, he's not a part of the, you know, all NBA conversation discourse. He's not a part of the I'm an all Star every year discourse. You know, all that shit. And I think, you know, people get caught up and just thinking it's just Joker, Joker, Joker. How do you stop Joker, man, when it comes to nut crunching time? Yes, Joker going to make a lot of plays, but it's that Jamal Murray that will send you home, and I'm a victim of it, you know, and he just makes plays. It's a sense of calmness when the ball is in his hand and they're working. Either that side, clear side 1 5, pick and roll, or that mid. Pick and roll, or that angle. Pick and Roll where he's either handling and Joker setting it, or he's playing touch game to Joker where he has, he could come off full speed. He has the ability to go back door. He's so shifty. The step backs going right, you know, it's not. You can't even, you can't even dictate which way you know, you know how you can see. Okay, this guy shoots better going this way. This guy shoots off the dribble going this way. Well, he had two game winners on us in this series. One was a step back going right, other one was a step back going left. So what the fuck do you do? And yes, we could have played the last one a little bit better defensively, but that's a different story. And then to add on to those two guys, Michael Porter Jr. Is a fucking laser. I don't know if it's just because he sees the Lakers or the Gold or whatever, but I feel like versus us, that motherfucker don't miss. He does not miss.
- [14:48]
JJ Redick
I called the one game where he literally did not miss in la.
- [14:52]
LeBron James
He literally did not miss. He literally did not miss. And I was like, man, this. You can't even get. You know how they say, close the gap, get to his chest. He doesn't even see you. He doesn't see you. And then those other two guys, man, you got KCP out there. A guy who just, who's just a winner, who makes winning plays. He can have zero points, he can have 15 points. And he's going to make, excuse me, make an impact on the game. And the same with Aaron Gordon, you know, Aaron Gordon, if he has two points or if he has 20 points, he'll. His impact doesn't change. He's going to rebound. He's going to stay. He knows his role. He's going to be in the dunker. He's going to slash from the baseline. You know, he's on guard. I just think they're super well, well, well organized as a group. And then obviously, you know, their coaching staff is pretty damn good on knowing, you know, with their strengths. And they go to their strengths. They avoid their weakness. You know, they avoid their weakness. It's not many see the difference between great teams, good teams and bad teams is to how many possessions can you go throughout the course of the game that meant absolutely nothing. Meaning a great team won't go through too many games where they had terrible possessions, where it was like, what the fuck are we doing? Where a great team would never throw the ball into the post to a guy and we're going to expect him to score if that's not what the fuck he do. A great team would never run a pick and roll with a player if he's not a pick and roll player. That's where the great, the good and the bad lies. Denver, they know what their strengths are and it's not nobody on that floor that does something that they shouldn't be doing. And I think that's what ultimately makes a great team.
- [16:49]
JJ Redick
Doc Rivers always talks about basketball as a game of mistakes. Right. And it is like there's not a per. There's. I get killed for saying this, but I'll stand by this. I don't think there's ever been a perfect player. I don't think there's ever been a perfect team. I don't know of a team that did not turn the ball over, did not miss a shot, did not lose a game like basketball is a game of mistakes. What you just said is I think really important and it gets ratcheted up more, even more in the playoffs. And that is having purpose to every possession.
- [17:16]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [17:16]
JJ Redick
That is having an intent to what we're trying to do on this position. I think that's an important point. I'm glad you brought up Michael Porter Jr. Because he has really to me embraced like the role that he has. And some. And I've talked to him about it and some of it is the guy has had insane injuries, the back surgeries, playing with drop foot, all that stuff. He's just grateful to play now. But I think he is the hardest player that is not like a primary scorer. Right. He's the hardest player to close out to.
- [17:55]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [17:56]
JJ Redick
The reason I say that he's 6 10, he elevates on his jump shot. They always maintain elite spacing. So if you make a mistake in your help or you make a mistake on the Jamal Murray, Nikola Jokic coverage in a pick and roll and you have to react to that, you have to overhelp. You get beat by Jamal Murray, ball starts swinging, you can't close to. He just is going to shoot over the top. And if for some reason you are there soon enough. He's gotten elite at driving closeouts. He really has. Whether he's getting to his midi or he's getting all the way to the basket. Like he's not a primary guy, but he's a star in his role. And as we see all the time in the playoffs, those guys become even more important in a series because the whole point of the playoffs, LeBron. You know, the whole point of the playoffs is like, how do we make every single player uncomfortable? And it starts with the star players. How do we make the star players uncomfortable?
- [18:58]
LeBron James
Yep. I mean, listen, Jamal hit two game winners on us, but you look at his numbers, we did a hell of a job on Jamal as far as making it tough on him. He shot maybe high 30s, maybe, I don't know the statistics, but maybe high 30s from the field in our, in our series. And obviously Joker's going to do what he did. Michael Porter is the one who kicked our ass. You know, he kicked our ass. And you know, we talk about like having luck to win a championship. Denver is a, is a case for that. There's no way coming out of high school before the back surgery that Michael Porter would even be in Denver. This guy was a projected number one pick in the draft, you know, and because of the back, you know, teams get alarmed and whatever the case may be because of that. And he slid in the draft and he slid right to the perfect position and perfect spot. They waited on him, didn't rush him, whatever the case may be. Then he got in and then he was still a little injured, like you said, with the drop foot or whatever the case may be. But now he's in a perfect situation. He's in a perfect situation around two guys that you, you have to keep not only your eyes on him if you're guarding as a primary defender, but then another set of eyes. So there's going to be somebody on that floor that you're going to forget about. And you know, he, he makes you pay. Like you said, 6, 10. He shoots at the top of his, at the top of his jump shot. His elbow was right in your face too. So you can't close the gap because if you hit his elbow, there's three free throws and he's a big time player.
- [20:33]
JJ Redick
I'm going to draw while I'm talking here, but we've talked about the singular plays and the luck. I want to talk about fouling up three, whether or not to foul up three, because we've seen this happen already multiple times. Sometimes multiple times within a game, sometimes multiple times within a series. I don't know how every coach you've had has approached whether or not to foul up three at the end of a game on a defensive possession, but just kind of give me your overall thoughts on it. And I really do want to sort of break this down because I think it's, it's going to come up again. It's going to come up again.
- [21:21]
LeBron James
Yeah. And what are all the circumstances that's going on at this point? Okay, so you're up three. Is it under 24 seconds left in the game? Is it. Do we have a timeout? What are some of the cases? I was watching the game last night, obviously, New York up three. Tyrese had just hit a four point play. They come back down. Josh Hart goes one for two from the free throw line. Put him up three. Phillies coming down. And I personally, I would have fouled. I would have, I would, I would have fouled before Tyrese even crossed half court. Okay. I just, I just do it. And it has to be. And for. It has to be on the downward dribble. If, if you're going to foul, you have to foul on the downward dribble, you know, and it's hard sometimes. A lot of guys are afraid to do it too. A lot of coaches are afraid to tell their team to foul. Went up three because one, either one, they haven't worked on it, or two, it is, you know, with our rules and things, it gets tricky sometimes and you send a guy to the free throw line, you know, because you tried to file them in the case. But I am filing, I am filing, I am filing, I am filing. It's just. Guys are too great, man. Guys are too great.
- [22:49]
JJ Redick
I'm in agreeance with you. I'm fouling up three every single time.
- [22:54]
LeBron James
Every single time.
- [22:55]
JJ Redick
Every single time. Look, I think, though, to your point about fouling Maxi on that particular play in the backcourt, I don't have it off the top of my head when he caught the ball, right? But let's say when he's in the backcourt, he's somewhere between 10 and 12 seconds on the, on the clock. A lot of coaches that I had that taught us to foul up three. It was always it, you know, you don't consider doing it until it's six to eight.
- [23:28]
LeBron James
Like six to eight seconds exactly.
- [23:30]
JJ Redick
Right. Which I'm. I don't really know why we did that cutoff. Maybe we can get into that. So the foul on the Maxi play would have been early. The other two factors that you always have to consider are, do you have good free throw shooters? Do you have a good guy, like a guy you trust? You have multiple guys you can trust. When I played in the Clippers, man, our end game offensive closing lineup was me, Jamal Crawford and Chris Paul. There was one year we all shot 90%.
- [24:01]
LeBron James
Yeah, exactly. So.
- [24:03]
JJ Redick
So we should foul up three. You talked about the Downward dribble. This is what I wanted to drop because this, this relates directly to the play that happened the first Middleton three in the. In game three of Indy and Milwaukee. So Middleton had it out of bounds, right. Brooke had it posting up Miles Turner right here. Right. So Brooks trying to get open and he kind of shoves Myles Turner and he steps out. Now, this was a lob pass. So this is an important thing that I think was taught well to me and I think is important in all of this. Half court, I mean, full court and half court are two different things. As that ball's in the air. So Brooks right there, like I was taught to run through the ball. Run through the ball, meaning just foul before the guy gets it. The ball's been released.
- [25:00]
LeBron James
The ball's been released.
- [25:01]
JJ Redick
Yep, the ball's been released. So in that particular play, and they obviously were not fouling up three. He then gets the dribble handoff up here. Miles Turner hedges. Hedges and forces like a, like a, like a dribble around right away from the basket. So he had like two or three opportunities to foul.
- [25:24]
LeBron James
To foul.
- [25:25]
JJ Redick
Clearly Rick Carlisle's telling him not to foul, right? And Middleton makes a crazy shot. All of this is to say, and you said it already, these guys are too fucking good. Middleton's shot was ridiculous. Maxey pulled up from 37ft, or 38, whatever it was, 38ft inside the logo. Like, you can't afford to allow guys to get a clean shot anymore. If you go back to game two as well, I think it was game two, the Dante DiVincenzo, you know, Maxi getting fouled and losing the ball and all that, said DiVincenzo, it's a three, they end up getting it back. They were up three again and they elected not to foul. I think there were six seconds on the clock when they took it out. So clearly Tibbs, whether he made the adjustment or not, like certain coaches still believe you don't foul. And I think there's the camp that you foul every time.
- [26:14]
LeBron James
Yeah, I just. And you have to live with it. It's almost like if you're a blackjack player, if you're going to hit every time on a Versa 2 on 12, then do it every time. If you got. If you have. If it's a two showing and you got 12, if you hit all the time, just hit all the time. Don't be sitting at the table with me and you say, well, sometimes I hit it, sometimes I don't. Well, no, I can't, I can't I can't sit at this table with you. So I agree. We have coaches out there that say, going to guard. I trust my defense. We going to guard. We going to guard, we going to guard. I'm just not on that side. I'm on the side of. If we up three, let's foul. Let's foul up three. You know, you got to trust the. Hopefully, you know, got to. Obviously, like you said, personnel is key. You got to have a trusted guy that you trust to inbound the ball after they make free throws. You know, if. If you have a timeout, you should be good, try to get the ball into your best free throw shooter. If not, call a timeout, advance it. If you don't have a timeout, get it to your best free throw shooter. But these are things you work on in practice. Hey, if we up three, no timeouts, we're going to foul. If they make two, you take the ball out. Expect a trap on the first one. Expect a trap because they're going to try to trap. You get the ball. Boom, boom, boom. You do all that stuff. So, like, it's all about preparation, man. It's about preparation. And like I said, I'm with you, J.J. when it comes to being up 3, I want a foul. I don't like seeing that ball up in the air while we watching the ball, like, oh, shit, this is going in. This shit is going in.
- [27:52]
JJ Redick
The feeling of victory was so fucking close. Now we got to go to overtime. The timeout thing is also important, I think, in all of this, where if you're. If a team's out of timeouts. Yeah, number one. If it's under 10 seconds, it should be automatic. But they're out of timeouts, let's say with 20 seconds. I think there's more wiggle room to fouling earlier. In this case, the maxi play, singular plays. Fouling up three brings up a memory. LeBron brings up a memory. 2009, we're down 2:1. We're up 12 at halftime against the Lakers in game four. We play our ass off, have some turnover issues, have some free throw issues. We're still up 5 with under a minute to go and the ball to tie the series. Some things happen. We miss some free throws. Kobe makes a ridiculous pass to Powell, who cuts down the lane and dunks it 87, 84. We go back to the free throw line. Anyways, it ends up they get the ball back with about 10 seconds to go in front of their bench. For some reason, I don't know why we doubled Kobe, he swung it to Trevor Ariza, who threw it across the court to Derek Fisher, to Fish. And he just lined up a three.
- [29:06]
LeBron James
He just lined it up.
- [29:07]
JJ Redick
Lined up a three.
- [29:08]
LeBron James
He just lined it up.
- [29:09]
JJ Redick
Do you remember? I don't. I was trying to figure out today on Basketball Reference, and I couldn't find it. Do you remember what year it was we were playing? I think it was in Cleveland and Stan had just sort of implemented. We're gonna foul up three. And I think it was that year. It might have been the year before. And we're playing against you guys and you catch the ball right near half court, like not shooting range, and there's still time on the clock and you read it right. And we fouled and you went in your shooting motion, you got the three free throws.
- [29:45]
LeBron James
No, I remember.
- [29:46]
JJ Redick
I'm trying to figure out, like, did that have something?
- [29:49]
LeBron James
Because we.
- [29:50]
JJ Redick
We didn't. We didn't say. As far as I can remember, and clearly by cheers defensive approach, we didn't say we're going to foul. Right?
- [29:58]
LeBron James
We're.
- [29:59]
JJ Redick
Fuck, man. I'm not saying we would have won the series, by the way. I'm not saying.
- [30:03]
LeBron James
I mean. But listen, two. Two is a hell of a lot better than three one.
- [30:06]
JJ Redick
Listen, I know speaking of Jamal, Murray, Brunson, Maxey, these guys.
- [30:12]
LeBron James
Yeah, man.
- [30:13]
JJ Redick
One thing that I love about all three of them. So they are considered point guards now, right? They are considered point guards. So many times we'll just get off the ball, cut down and then get. Let's say this is Jamal, because he does like to come to his left hand. They'll just get this little rub screen into a dhl, right? That action to me is so like practicing that action. Doing it in games all season long, stuff like that, I think becomes even more valuable in the playoffs because you can't set the defense.
- [30:52]
LeBron James
You can't set the defense and you're getting off the ball. And we all know that once the primary guy gets off the ball, what the defender does just for one split second, he relaxes a little bit. So when Maul and Reese and Jay Jaylen, they getting off the ball, you relax just a little bit and I'm flying underneath and I'm getting a screen. You know, in our case, it's Aaron Gordon setting the screen. So you kind of want to stay body on body. You don't want to switch that. Because now Aaron Gordon is going to duck in a smaller guy into the paint. You don't want to switch that. You know, with Tyrese, you know, his. You know, they swinging into Embiid, you know, and when he's handing the handoff, the guy that's guarding Embiid is so focused on embiId, maybe going one on one, when the drop off happens, he's not in a position to help. So Tyrese is coming off naked. He's coming off, getting to his 1, 2, 3, going left, step back. You know, he's coming off with so much force and so much speed. And those three guys, they come off with so much speed, and they keep your defense honored all the time. There's never. There's no false gas with them when they're in action.
- [32:08]
JJ Redick
The play with Maxi that I just think is so hard is their simple double drag. And they'll. A lot of times in this series, at least. And again, we don't know the outcome of the series, but a lot of times in this series, they've used Jalen Brunson's man as the first screener. Whoever Jalen is guarding. Right. He's the first screener in here because.
- [32:28]
LeBron James
They don't want him to switch it.
- [32:30]
JJ Redick
Right? Exactly. And it just feels like with Maxi, you bring up the speed. With Maxi in particular, the way he's able to turn this corner and then have this defender still so concerned with Joel. This, to me, is one of the toughest actions to guard for the Philadelphia 76ers. It's a simple play. It's just a double drag.
- [32:52]
LeBron James
It is.
- [32:54]
JJ Redick
It creates an advantage because of his speed and because Joel is there.
- [32:57]
LeBron James
Yep. And that creates the whole ripple effect. That's. That's the whole. That's what the offense. Offense is all dictated on. How can I create a trigger? Who can create a trigger on the floor to make this whole thing work? And like you said, where Reese coming at that, and they don't just do like a double drag where it's like guys are, like, stacked right behind each other. They spread it out a little bit. So you have the first screener here, and then they angle a little bit, and then the next screener is kind of in the middle of the floor. They angle it a little bit. So when Tyrese is coming off, he's already. He's already running downhill. And because of his three point shooting, all three of them.
- [33:36]
JJ Redick
This is what you mean by the angle. Right. First screener is a little bit higher. They're spaced out a little bit higher. The second screener's a little bit lower. And of course, as we've seen with Maxi, by the way, you go under, he shoots.
- [33:48]
LeBron James
You go up, he shoots it from there. Exactly. And the same with those other two guys. With Brunson and with Jamal, they will stop and pop. So, you know, when you have a threat at that point guard position with that type of speed, you want to. The offense will work. That's the trigger. That's the trigger right there.
- [34:06]
JJ Redick
Specifically with Brunson, where do you think some of the adjustments have been in this series offensively for them to get him more space?
- [34:15]
LeBron James
They got him off the ball a little bit more. Um, you know, obviously he always ends up with the ball, but I think early in the clock they've gotten him off the ball and then allow him to get the ball after that. You know, I've seen, you know, Dante bring the ball up a little bit more. You know, Josh Hart can bring the ball up a lot more too, because he's not much of a, you know, he shoots the three, but he's not much of a threat out there when he hit, when he's handling the ball. So his defender is going to play off him a little bit. So it allows him to be able to go to, you know, dho, dribble handoffs to Brunson. With a live dribble. It allows him to hit, you know, either hard Hardenstein, you know, or, or, or, or, or Mitchell Robinson, you know, they play that kind of like that touch game and then they go set a pin down for Brunson coming to his left. So they've gotten, they. I think they've gotten Jalen Brunson off the ball a little bit more and allowed him to now get into his wiggle room. He's being guarded by bigger guys. I mean, Nicholas Batum is guarding him. Kelly Oubre is guarding him, Tobias Harris is guarding him. They're trying to put some length, you know, around him, you know, to try to contain him a little bit. But shit, he's still getting off because he's so crafty.
- [35:21]
JJ Redick
Yeah, that's a big part of it to me is having someone else just bring the ball up.
- [35:27]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [35:28]
JJ Redick
You think about those first couple games, and it's not that he's not. He didn't do it in games three, four or five.
- [35:33]
LeBron James
Oh, yeah, for sure.
- [35:34]
JJ Redick
You think about those first two couple games where he's initiating the offense. Every time Kelly Oubre is picking him up at 94. Every single possession, every single dead ball, every single make, he's guarding him. And that, to me, takes a little bit of a toll, particularly for a guy who does legitimately nearly all of the half court creation for that team, right, with no Julius Randle. The other thing that they've done, I think, is this angle, pick and roll up here. And a lot of times it is an empty side, by the way, this angle, pick and roll up here. They've done a good job, I think, of keeping it off the sideline. And why is that important? So if Joel's in a drop, we saw this in game five. Joel's in a drop. They're going to force him to his right hand, right. Jalen can shoot that pull up three. But the other reason it's important is whether Joel is upper back. As Jalen comes off this pick right here, he now has space. This is like a big thing, I think, and it's going to be a big thing with Minnesota and Denver as well with Anthony Edwards. Pick and roll. You want these guys like Damian Lillard to me is I think the best at doing this, particularly going left. You want these guys to have space. So let's say Joel's all the way up. You want space to be able to get around him. You don't want it too close to sideline, right. Third defender, let's say he's back. They do a good job of chasing over. Now, Jalen, as we saw multiple times this series, can get past him either way, right, with his footwork, speed, got an and one, all that stuff. So I think the way it's not just like, oh, we're going to run a. We're going to run an angle pick and roll. It's where you're putting everyone else and it's where it is on the floor. It's giving enough space for them to actually attack the big.
- [37:29]
LeBron James
Yep, absolutely. And obviously you go through the game, from game to game, you see how they're being guarded, you know, and in your case, you know, Jalen Brunson having that room on the sideline, he either can race the big, like you said, going, you know, north and south, race the big to the. You saw the last night, a couple of times he raced, Joel got layup. He also has the ability coming right. If Joel's in a drop, he has the ability to snake it going back left to where he's super comfortable with his mid range, getting back to his left using his footwork. And also, you know, if you get it going early, like you said, Dame Lillard is the best of this. If that big is too far, once that big, once that, you know that, that offensive five sets, that screen, Dame's coming Off. And he's letting it go. That thing, that ball is gone before that big. Can't get up fast enough. Yeah, he's letting it go. And Dame and Steph are two of the guys in our league. Their bigs will screen them. Draymond and now Brook and those guys, they come and screen off their guys at half court. As soon as they cross half court, they're in range.
- [38:24]
JJ Redick
I was thinking about Maxey. He's sort of the third guy I brought up, and I was thinking about him today, and I was thinking about the playoffs, right? And Joel's a big piece in this. Cause I think having him on the floor. We watched Maxey play. Maxey was great with no Joel this season, but he's clearly a better player with Joel, right? And I was thinking about Maxie and like, yes, he's fast, but he's also. He also changes speeds so. Well, the way I would describe him and why I think he's so good in the playoffs is because you can't get ahold of him. Do you know what I mean by that? There's like a. He constantly plays with a bounce to his step, and sometimes the bounces are slower, sometimes they're faster. And then when he wants to turn on the jets, he turns on the Jets. But it's. It's. It's hard with just two defenders, I think, and space to actually get a hold of him, put your hands on them and really slow him down.
- [39:24]
LeBron James
Yeah, and. And the motherfucker don't get tired. Yeah, he don't get tired. I watched that game last night, but I think he played 50 minutes. I think, maybe, you know, hurt his elbow at one point, turned his ankle at one point, hit the ground numerous of times, try to go in the lane and dunk on two guys, get it blocked, get back up. But he's, like you said, you can't get a hold of him because he don't get tired. You know, that's a great point.
- [39:58]
JJ Redick
So the reason I bring up that Anthony Edwards, Jokic stuff, because to me, this is like, probably the most. Will be the most fascinating second round series.
- [40:09]
LeBron James
Yeah, it's gonna be a good one.
- [40:10]
JJ Redick
It's gonna be a good one. Where do you think we were talking earlier about solving the Denver Nuggets puzzle? Where do you think Minnesota has an advantage or can create an advantage?
- [40:26]
LeBron James
I think one of obviously Minnesota's advantage, which they have in our league in general, no matter if it's versus Denver or versus anybody, is the length that they have at the wing Positions, you know, you don't look at Mike Conley as a tall guy, but his length, you know, he has a lot of length out there, obviously. Ant Edwards, a lot of length. Jaden McDaniels lift length, cat length, Rudy length. You know, they come off with Nikhil Alexander Walker length, Nas Reid length. Who else? Kyle Anderson. They just, they continue to barrage you with length, length, length. And then guys that also know how to play too. So, you know, that's been their biggest advantage because they bought in to coach Finch defensive schemes or whoever the defensive coordinator is there. I don't want to speculate, whatever the case may be, but he's the guy at the helm.
- [41:23]
JJ Redick
The coaching staff.
- [41:24]
LeBron James
Yeah, the coaching staff. The coaching staff. Yeah, the coaching staff. And those guys have bought into the defensive end like and, and it's not only that they bought into the defensive end. They got guys that want to defend, you know, and make their mark on the defensive end. So that creates havoc for any team, you know, not just, you know, Phoenix and not just for Denver. I think they, you know, Denver's the. You're going to have the best offensive team that we have in the game, excluding Boston, versus the best defensive team that we have in our league right now, you know, going at it in a second round matchup, which is super intriguing and exciting for. For guys like myself and fans of the game.
- [42:08]
JJ Redick
Yeah, a couple of things. So. So the reason I bring up the Anthony Edwards thing. So Jokic likes to be up in the pick and roll, right? So in, let's say the same scenario where Anthony Edwards is getting this angle pick and roll, Jokic is going to be all the way up as he comes off. So the space and where they set this screen, who the next guy is over here where they space Gobert. All of this stuff super important if it is Karl Anthony Town setting the screen. Nas Reed, right? Do they get to a pre switch? Does Anthony Edwards run a pick and roll versus whoever, Jamal Murray's garden, right? Get him on him. Then all of a sudden you've got Karl Anthony Towns, Nas Reed against Jamal Murray. If they switch. The other thing they did a ton in the Phoenix series, you know, when, when Ant was in ISO, you've got Cat as the next guy. Do you know what I mean by that being the next guy?
- [43:10]
LeBron James
That. Of course you do.
- [43:12]
JJ Redick
Let me explain the next guy. All right, so I'm going to use O's for offense now. Fucking keep doing this. So let's say Ant has a matchup or he's going against Whoever he's going against, kcp, the next guy, meaning Carlton Towns is the next pass. So as he, he drives, he tries to create whatever it may be, that next pass is to Carl Anthony Towns. That's important. These are, these are, these are things that like two to your point earlier, I think I just want to reiterate this. There's a purpose to every possession. There's a reason that Aaron Gordon is spaced this way. There is a reason that Jaden McDaniels is spaced in the corner. Like, there's a reason behind all of this.
- [43:53]
LeBron James
Yeah. And I think if Minnesota decides to put Joker in pick and rolls a lot, I think they're going to trap him. They're going to force Rudy to be a decision maker in the pocket. I mean, that's what I would do. I mean, because, you know, you know, it's a different. It's a different beast from, you know, Anthony Davis catching in the pocket, you know, to Rudy catching in the pocket. And yes, he can make plays. We know that. I mean, he's an NBA player and it's not like the first time teams have blitzed off of him. But, you know, when you allow Ant to get downhill or you allow him to turn the corner, it's. It just opens up too much for that Minnesota team. So. No, we'll see. We'll see. I mean, it's all speculation and just us using our basketball IQ and our smarts of the game, but I think, you know, I don't think we're giving.
- [44:42]
JJ Redick
Away any secrets, though. I think, you know, I'm just. We're trying to break down like essentially what. What is going through a coaching staff. What is going through a player's head in the playoffs? These are the things that, like all teams meet this way. This is how. This is. How do we exploit this specific team? How do we exploit this specific matchup? And in some cases, because I lived through it, how do I avoid this matchup?
- [45:10]
LeBron James
Yeah, exactly. So, you know, that's what's going to happen. You know, you got two great teams going at it, two of the best teams this year, and the. It's going to be a chess. It's going to be a chess game of going into game one. Okay. This is our game plan. All right? Shit. Going into game two. Okay. That worked in game one. Okay. Well, maybe it didn't work as much as we thought we did. Let's make a change.
- [45:30]
JJ Redick
The one seed in the west, the team that was too young, was Oklahoma City. They swept the Pelicans Obviously Pelicans without their best player. Number of guys played well in that series. Shea, of course, had some big moments. Jalen Williams had some, some massive games. But the guy that really stood out to me, particularly because there was no Zion, was Lou Dort. Was Lou Dort his defense on Brandon Ingram? Yeah, for sure. I wanted to ask you as a primary guy, what does it feel like going into a series knowing that you are going against a Lou Dort that's just going to be in your shirt. He's not going to concede switches, right? You may force him into a switch at times, but he's never going to concede the switch. Like he knows what his role is. And then as the series progresses and you've now become annoyed with him by minute 40 of game one and it's now game four. I'm serious, dude. The process for you, for any great offensive player, Luka right now going through it with Terrence Manny, like, what is that like?
- [46:49]
LeBron James
I think anytime you go into a series with a defender that's capable of Ludorch's skills, you can't have much fat on the court. And that's fuck around time. I'm not coming out here, trying to get in my bag. I'm not trying to come out here, you know, doing between, between behinds crossovers to get you off of me. If I'm in a pick and roll, you tell your big, you gotta screen him. Yes, he gonna try to fight through it, but I need you to screen him, get him up off of me for a little bit. And then if I'm in ISO situations, I know I can't fuck around. It's quick moves. It's quick moves. One counter and get to my spot. Either all the way to the cup or get to my spot on the floor. Because if you play around with guys like that, they're going to wear on you, they're going to keep their body on you, they're going to make it physical. You know, in the playoffs you're allowed to be a little bit more physical. Well, as I've seen in all the other series, in our series, it felt like a fucking regular season game. But whatever. That's beside the point.
- [47:58]
JJ Redick
Says the guy whose team had the greatest free throw disparity in the NBA the last two seasons. This fucking guy.
- [48:08]
LeBron James
So you gotta like, you gotta just go. There's no maybe you can get one game to wear up, to warm up to it, warm up to his intensity, the way he's playing, whatever, but it's not much you can't be out there fucking around with your movements and you getting the job done. Because he's not going for none of that. He's just. He's there in your chest.
- [48:31]
JJ Redick
Is that mindset around not messing around? Is that because you know there's going to be a toll with him guarding you, so doing extra creates an extra toll? Is that sort of the mindset of that?
- [48:45]
LeBron James
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And also at the same time, you know, I believe you can wear guys like that down as well. You know, if you're not messing around, you may be able to get him with an early cheap one, you know. Cause he's trying to be too. He trying to be too physical, you know, so you go quick and you get a quick early cheap one on him. So now he got one foul with 10 minutes to go in the first. He going, you going to back off a little bit, you know, you able to get him a second foul, you know, late in the first quarter, early in the second maybe. He damn sure want to pick up three in the first half because now you got to come out for the rest of the half. So, you know, for me, it's, you know, I'll try to just play the chess game for sure, but, you know, Dort was definitely doing his thing versus Bi and the rest of those guys. He had him. In wrestling terms, he had him in a cobra clutch.
- [49:33]
JJ Redick
Is there anyone that you'd like to praise, any of those defenders like Lou Dort, that you feel like throughout your career, whether you've won or lost, or whether they've lost or won, where you just. You would get done with the series and be like, oh, dude, that guy has my respect.
- [49:51]
LeBron James
You know, I think it was my first year back in Cleveland on a return, and it was maybe our first round opponent. I think we played Detroit, if I'm not mistaken. And I think KCP was on that team. Drummond was on that team. A couple other guys was on that team. Obviously, Moose was on that team, I believe. I think Stan was coaching, if I'm not mistaken, I think Stan was coaching that team. But back to your question. Stanley Johnson was. He earned my respect in that first round series. Stanley Johnson, he had the lateral movement. He had the physicality. You could tell that the coaching staff told him, don't worry about the schemes. I feel like the same thing with Dork. It was like, don't worry about the schemes. Yeah, everybody's switching but you. You get through every screen. If you weak side low man, you have no responsibility. You don't pull in. You basically playing a box in one. You know, there's a lot more guys obviously I would give credit to defensively, but that's the one guy I like off the top of my head. Like in like.
- [50:59]
JJ Redick
Yeah, no, no, no. I know exactly what you're saying.
- [51:01]
LeBron James
It's not recent memory. It's 10 years ago, but it's recent enough. But Stanley definitely was. He possessed those skills in our league for sure.
- [51:13]
JJ Redick
Well, this has been fun. The last point I want to make. Cause I like when one show builds upon another. You know, we did the show last week about three point shooting and why it's sort of changed everything. I saw a great stat today that came across my timeline. Teams that make more threes in this playoffs so far, 27 and nine. Teams that attempt more threes just attempt More threes are 27 and 8. There. There's a lot of fact, dude, there's a lot of factors in all of this. Right. Because a lot, some of these games are coming down to single plays. You can have a high turnover game with a bunch of live ball turnovers like the Clippers did in game three. That leads to a bunch of fast break points for the mat. Like there's a bunch of factors to a game.
- [52:07]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [52:08]
JJ Redick
And I'm sure there's other stats that show, oh, if you do this versus this, right. You're going to win the game. All I'm saying is I think three point shooting's pretty important. I think there's a math issue.
- [52:21]
LeBron James
But where do you stand as far as more threes? More. You know, when you're coaching your son's team, is it more threes? My son's team, is it more threes or less threes? When you're coaching. When you're coaching your son's team on the weekend, what is it?
- [52:43]
JJ Redick
I believe math should play into it. I think there's times now where you have to play a perfect game. If at the baseline level you're going to be outmathed. Right. Do you know what I mean? You have to say, okay, where can we create an advantage? Can we be a team that forces a ton of turnovers? Can we be a team that crashes the offensive glass? There's, there's other ways to create advantages. My point is if you're going against a team that is going to shoot 40 to 45 threes and you're going to shoot 20 to 5 to 25 to 30, you better fucking nail all of your advantages.
- [53:29]
LeBron James
Right? Right, right, right.
- [53:30]
JJ Redick
Otherwise you, you, you're just, you're not going to win.
- [53:33]
LeBron James
It's based on that. The math ain't mathing at that point.
- [53:36]
JJ Redick
Yeah. Now you got to have the, I recognize you got to have the personnel to do all these things. I, you know, with my, my kids, I have, I had like three kids. Three. I have three kids that can shoot threes, you know, for a nine, ten year old that are, I would call it efficient. And I tell them, I'm like, if you guys take 10 good threes in a game, 12 good threes in a game, I'm cool with it. Because these games, you know, a high scoring game's 40 to 38, right. We got 14 minute running clocks except for the last three minutes of the half. So it's like if we can shoot 30 threes and make five or six of them, I'm living with that, bro.
- [54:15]
LeBron James
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:16]
JJ Redick
By the way, shooting a 3 at that age, you know what that is? That's a shot and not a turnover. So I'll take that all day.
- [54:23]
LeBron James
For sure. For sure. And you know what? And in our league too, you got to look at it that way sometimes because you got guys who get into the lane or teams get into the lane and had a wide open three. They trying to get into the lane, make plays and here goes turnover. And it's just too hard with the speed and the guys that we have in our league to get back in transition. You can't get the numbers as bad, you know. So I'm warming up more and more as I wind my career down on the three point attempt. But I am a math guy. Yeah, that was my favorite subject in school. So I definitely get it. I understand it.
- [55:00]
JJ Redick
Actually, you kind of alluded to this. You know, the conversation around LeBron shooting 12, 14 threes in a game was interesting because you attacking the basket is actually what makes like an offense work. Right. So you could individually say, you know what, A lot of guys are like this. Luka could, Luka could, James could. I'm gonna shoot. Fuck it. I'm gonna shoot 15 threes tonight. I'm gonna shoot 20 threes. Right? Is that the best way for the team to run an offense now? In some cases in James and Houston, fuck it was right? Steph running around, running pick and roll, getting dribble, handoffs, shooting transit for them. That's the best way for them to run offense. Him taking 15 threes. So I do think it's case by case if you're in your, you're somehow still in your prime, it seems like, but if you're in your prime, you trying to get to the basket makes the game easier and open for everybody.
- [56:07]
LeBron James
I mean, you know, I mean it's pretty cool. I mean to hear, listen, if I have a guy that you know from a perimeter standpoint as an attacker and I know can, you know, feast off opening our offense up by getting into the lane and making plays with a lane, you know, I can see myself.
- [56:27]
JJ Redick
You know, playing another six years just.
- [56:30]
LeBron James
Being a spot up shooter, maybe, maybe shoot eight to ten threes a game. You know, I did okay this year from the three point line. I did okay.
- [56:39]
JJ Redick
I think you should just do a complete heel turn next year and I'm going to send you, I'm going to send you all my tapes, send you all my highlight videos and you should just become like an off ball movement guy. Just flying off screens, leaning, falling away.
- [56:59]
LeBron James
Oh my God. You know how mad guys would be my opponent? Like what the are you doing? Why are you running this fast coming off pin downs like this?
- [57:09]
JJ Redick
All right man, Cheers. Fun as always.
- [57:12]
LeBron James
Cheers. Always fun, brother.
- [57:17]
JJ Redick
Hey guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast. If you like it, please hit that subscribe button. Thank you. Sa.