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- [00:01]
Steve Nash
How can advertising on TikTok help jumpstart sales for your small business?
- [00:04]
Julian
Thanks to TikTok ads, I was able to open up a business with my childhood friend, get a warehouse, and even hire employees. My name is Julian, and I am one of the founders of the Snacks Lab. We are an exotic snack company. We had over $100,000 in sales from our TikTok ads in the first month. So our orders went from five a day to over 250 orders a day. You definitely have to use TikTok ads, and you gotta start now.
- [00:26]
Steve Nash
Head over to getstarted.TikTok.com tiktokads Here we go. All right, we'll do quiet on set.
- [00:36]
LeBron James
Thank you.
- [00:38]
Steve Nash
Here we go. Welcome to another episode of Mind the Game, brought to you by uninterrupted and wondering. Today we're here in beautiful Indianapolis at the Thunderdome, the home of the Pat McAfee Show. He was gracious enough to let us camp out here, shoot this episode where we covered my career, what made me successful. Although sheepish sometimes about my career, it was really cool to speak with LeBron about my journey and how I was able to play in the league and have success. LeBron brought up an NBA piece of terminology called the Nash dribble or nashing. Yes. I feel kind of awkward explaining this, but essentially a Nash dribble is where perhaps I have the ball on the wing. I beat my man. The defender comes to help with the rim, and instead of shooting, passing, or getting out, I would circle under the basket, keep my dribble alive, and just ask questions of the defense. Ask the big if he's gonna switch. Ask if they're gonna get back. See. See who turns their head on the perimeter. See what advantage I create by not getting rid of the ball, but by keeping it and circling under the basket. I think that's all you need to know in this episode. Hopefully, you learned something new. And of course, as always, I hope you enjoyed Mind the Game. Please like and subscribe. All right, here we are, man.
- [02:17]
Pat McAfee
We back.
- [02:17]
Steve Nash
Mind the Game. We're back. What do you want to talk about today?
- [02:20]
Pat McAfee
I mean, I know we do a lot of talking about, you know, the game and other players, and sometimes we even talk about me and all that, but I think it's only right. I know how humble you are, how modest you are, Steve. I know it. But we have to talk about you, man. Like, I just want to know, like, from not only myself, but from everyone, like, how are you so successful? Wasn't the tallest, Wasn't the fastest, wasn't the most athletic. Like, how the hell did you get it done year after year after year? And by the way, two MVP trophies.
- [02:57]
Steve Nash
Thank you.
- [02:58]
Pat McAfee
It's only a select few. Union. We know the list. Only a select few. Like, I want to know.
- [03:03]
Steve Nash
Well, it's, you know, it's a long story, really.
- [03:06]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [03:06]
Steve Nash
You know, because it goes back to, like, your. Your roots. There's no way, right? Like, line me up on the line. Let's see who can, like, run, jump, wrestle, fight, you know, throw, whatever. I'm not gonna win any of those contests, but I think the way I grew up was a huge, huge part of it. But I think the bottom line is, for whatever reason, however, nature, nurture, I can get obsessed.
- [03:33]
Pat McAfee
Yeah. Yeah.
- [03:34]
Steve Nash
That's the bottom line is I got obsessed with trying to be the best I could be. So I put in that time. I constantly was trying to get better. I didn't start playing basketball till I was 13. And I think that's kind of where the story starts. My parents are from the uk. My dad played soccer.
- [03:47]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, I say big soccer team, you.
- [03:48]
Steve Nash
Know, was out in the backyard playing soccer, and they put me into everything. Growing up in the west coast of Canada, played hockey, played baseball, and box lacrosse in the summer. So I think for me, not playing basketball till late, like, I was still getting my 10,000 hours playing other sports, like physical literacy, anticipation angles. And then, you know, you learn. Like, when you love playing sports, you learn how to protect space, you learn how to exploit space. So, like, it was for me, especially coming from a soccer background, like, you always have to have your head on a swivel in soccer because if you're not thinking ahead, you're gonna get kicked.
- [04:27]
Pat McAfee
Yep.
- [04:27]
Steve Nash
Ball comes, you got to know what you're gonna do with it. What are my options? So when I went to start playing basketball 13 years old, you know, I almost felt like this. I felt it was cheating, that I could use my hands and spin the ball, use both hands. And so I kind of think that all came from playing all those other sports. And then one other really pivotal part for me, I think, was my dad. My dad being just loving sports, but his. Like, when we played in the backyard, you know, he always challenged me in the right way. So, like, if I try to dribble when I should pass, K's gonna tackle me. If I pass. When it's the right decision, he's gonna reinforce it. If I score three goals in a game, when we get in the car, he'll. He Wouldn't say three goals. Yes. He'd be like, you remember that one time you had a shot, you drew the defense, you played it off to your teammate, he had an open goal. Best player of the game. So my value system was trying to out think, outsmart, be clever, be witty, the things that he valued. So that was always kind of what I was trying to do, was to impress my dad that I know how to play. And so I think all these little ingredients, playing all the sports, you know, having that value system and then. But most importantly, just becoming obsessed with whatever I was doing, you know, those are the huge ingredients.
- [05:45]
Pat McAfee
And I feel like. I feel like soccer too. Like, you know, obviously growing to love soccer as I've gotten older, whatever, and respecting the sport. I feel like you being able to use that sport for, like, knowing angles. When you. When you started playing basketball, like, I always was, like, impressed with your ability to master the angle game as well. You're not out on the floor either if it was coming off a pick and roll or if it was a certain pass or if it was, you know, just kind of reading the defenses or whatever the case may be. You know, I know I could. It's always like, anytime, you know, you hear someone's background being soccer, right. You see how it can translate to the game of basketball where it almost puts you plays and plays in advance. Because in soccer, if you're not like, taking yes way ahead or you're. You're not gonna make it.
- [06:34]
Steve Nash
That's right.
- [06:34]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure.
- [06:35]
Steve Nash
It's a great point. I mean, I don't think I'd play in the NBA if it wasn't for soccer, you know, because like I said, like, you just physically, you know, in the ballpark, but not, like, great. And so, you know, that was a huge part of it. And then I think also just being like that, I couldn't, like, just run past everyone. I couldn't jump over everyone. I couldn't just be physical. I had to be really, really efficient. Like, develop. And so when talking about angles, you know, I had to be. I learned to be really greedy. Like, I'm gonna get there. And that angle where you're done. Yeah, I'm taking you out. Like, I couldn't have any of the excess, excess fat.
- [07:12]
Pat McAfee
Right, right, right, right.
- [07:13]
Steve Nash
In the game, you know, footwork, shooting, passing, decision making had to always be really sharp. So I think that, that a lot of that came from soccer, the angles. But then a lot of that just came from trial and error. This guy's pushing me Left will become great in your left. You know, he's stronger than me. How do I keep him on his heels? Right. How can I take an angle where I have the advantage and I dictate the pace of play now, like, so all these little things, you learn from trial and error. You learn from being sharp, but you also, like, learn because you're obsessed at the end of the day, like, for kids. Like, you're the same. Like, you're obsessed with trying to get better. You have a growth mindset. You. You can't let go of it, right? So all the things we talk about are great, and they're all factors. They're all a part of this, you know, pot that makes you who you are. But the one that really, I think, transcends, like, for all the great players in sport is they are obsessed with performance.
- [08:10]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure. And funny. While we. On angles, it's funny because I feel like you mastered the angle of the baseline when you played, and it became a thing called the fucking Nash dribble. When did that become a thing? Or was it just always a part of your game? Because we both know, like, some guys get there on the baseline, and it becomes like, the deep water of the pool, right? Guys panic. The panic.
- [08:38]
Steve Nash
Yeah.
- [08:38]
Pat McAfee
Step out of bounds or panic, and I need to get back out to the perimeter.
- [08:42]
Steve Nash
Force a shot.
- [08:43]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, force a shot. You're behind the baskets. You don't quite know. You turn the ball over. Like, when did the Nash dribble become, like, a staple for you?
- [08:51]
Steve Nash
You know, it's a great question. Like, I don't remember when I started doing it, you know? I will say this, though. I grew up like, Wayne Gretzky was my hero when I was a kid. One of my heroes. And for anyone who watched hockey, he used to skate behind the net and stop, like, facing the play with his back to the boards. So. So why is that ingenious? Because he's just changed the perspective of all the defenders, including the goalkeeper, the goaltender. So the goalie's sitting there, the pucks stop behind him. So when he does this, what does he see? He doesn't know where the traffic's going.
- [09:29]
Pat McAfee
Right. Exactly.
- [09:30]
Steve Nash
So he's doing this. Then. Defenders, they usually have their back to their goal, seeing everything in front of them. Now they have to turn and face.
- [09:37]
Pat McAfee
Them, their own goal.
- [09:38]
Steve Nash
So they don't know who's cutting, who's changing. So it always resonated with me how he was able to flip the script on the defense, change their perspective, put them at A disadvantage. And so I think I started realizing like, okay, I'm able to get to spots but I don't have a solution. Like I can't jump over everyone. You know, later in my career I developed fadeaways and floaters and runners and all use the glass and the one legged stuff. But I needed a solution that I couldn't just get in there and have to take a bad shot or force a play. So what I felt was like, I earned this real estate.
- [10:14]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [10:15]
Steve Nash
So I'm not just going to give it back to you.
- [10:17]
Pat McAfee
Right, right, right.
- [10:17]
Steve Nash
Like chucking it out for a non player. You know, a guy that's not a creator to have to catch it, go to half court, catch it. I was like, I created a defense is now they're all turning to face me. They don't know who's cutting, who's spacing, who's relocating and are they gonna switch or are they gonna try to get back. If they're gonna switch, I'm in charge. I got a big on my guy or I got the big that I can't wait. I can take him out. I can take a fade away. I can keep circling, I can probe, see which defender on the perimeter. So I felt like it was a real estate game. I'd earned that real estate. Now I changed their perspective. Now they don't know whether to switch and get back. If you're on the perimeter, you have to turn and see where's that ball now? In the teeth. It's a little bit like post to pass. Why that's successful is throwing to the post. Now as a defender, you have a man and ball. So if I turn to see ball.
- [11:10]
Pat McAfee
Nah, I cut, I'm gone.
- [11:11]
Steve Nash
Cutting, screen, slipping, whatever it is. So I felt like I created an advantage, I created confusion. I changed their perspective. They had to look in ways that they were uncomfortable or they couldn't see both now and then. If all else fails, if they don't switch, I could throw it up when they were trying to get back. If they do switch, we got a big under the rim or I can take him out, take advantage. So it really just came from not being able to attack the rim. I mean I could always finish, but I could, if I had space or time. I couldn't just go at a seven footer or a six. Six, dude. Right, right. Like so I had to think, all right, I got here, I can exploit this. Still just not in the traditional.
- [11:53]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah. Now that's, that's interesting. Especially like the, the correlation with the whole Gretzky thing, you know, being able to change the whole perception and POV by going behind the goalie, going behind the boards, and now I'm facing it. Everyone has to turn. So that's. I never.
- [12:11]
Steve Nash
It's also like in soccer.
- [12:12]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [12:12]
Steve Nash
You know, when someone, like, whips in across, if you play it between the goalkeeper and the defense. So the defense now is running back into a place where they don't want to let it go in case someone they can't see is coming behind them. But if they play it, they can put it in their own goal. The goalkeeper's like, should I come or shouldn't I come? So you're putting the defense in a position where you're like, you got some really hard decisions to make. So growing up, playing hockey, playing soccer, you kind of recognize some of these things where you put them in a bad position that you can exploit, even if you can't, like, just run past everyone.
- [12:45]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure.
- [12:46]
Steve Nash
So, you know, I guess, what do they say, like, invention is the mother of necessity or necessity is the mother of invention?
- [12:55]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:55]
Steve Nash
That's the right way around.
- [12:56]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure. That's dope. I got one more question for you before we move on. I know you don't like talking about yourself too much or whatever the case may be, but was it you or was it Dan, Tony, seven seconds or less?
- [13:10]
Steve Nash
Well, that's. I mean, Mike's amazing.
- [13:13]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [13:13]
Steve Nash
You know, Mike just had a great feel for the game, especially offensively. I mean, Mike knows defense. He knows basketball. He draws up great plays after timeouts. You know, he knows the game inside and out. But what I loved about Mike is that he was willing to go away from what everyone else was doing.
- [13:33]
Pat McAfee
Oh, for sure.
- [13:34]
Steve Nash
You know, so when I signed with Phoenix 2004 as a free agent, came back, started playing pickup the guys in September, and I think Mike realized there, you know, it was a team that hadn't won many games. He had some young guys. Sean and Amari, obviously great athletes. Joe Johnson was developing into a terrific player, and I think he saw us playing pickup basketball. He's like, why would I slow this down and get into sets that are going to make them less effective than opening this up? Let's put amari at the 5. Let's put Sean at the floor. Let's switch a lot more. We'll find a way to use our quickness to defend in different ways, and we'll outscore people. And so I think Mike was brilliant in that he was willing to say Wait, wait, wait. Why would I? That's almost harder. You can go and find. This is the atos. You can look around the world and find whatever you want. But for him to say, like, I'm not going to do what everyone else is doing and take that chance and that risk, you know, it definitely brought the best out of me. Going smaller, having a great roller two with Sean, having shooters around, being able to just create space for me to operate and to make plays, make decisions for my teammates. So I think one that was a culmination of me developing and continuing to put my foot down as far as trying to get better. Like little things. Like going into that summer, you know, I always wanted to stay with the Mavericks. You know, I think Mark had been burned on a couple deals. I was 30 at that time. I was attacking the basket a little bit. Kamikaze, you know, was, you know, didn't maybe have the balance to my game. I think he was scared, so he let me go. So, you know, all these things kind of happen. But before that happened, I'm thinking to myself, we lost in the playoffs. I think it was Sacramento, they like put a third defender on our side of the court. Whenever we're playing two man game, there was nothing there for me. You know, I always had to go the other side. And they played two on one and that was it. And Rick Adelman was like, I'm happy to let these guys over here play. And in a sense took me out of the series. So I was like, that's not happening again. I'm going to get sharper, I'm going.
- [15:48]
Pat McAfee
To be better, I'm going to shoot a better percentage.
- [15:50]
Steve Nash
And one of the things that I think helped me a little bit was I played out of my left hand a lot and I drove left and I pulled up going right. And summer I was like, I'm going to clean that up. I'm going to be able to pull up going both ways, drive the ball both ways. And so I really worked on like some of my deficiencies. Balance, stability, footwork, quickness in and out of a pull up. So that now I had more solutions. Going left, pull. Going left, runner, floater, going right, pull, pole, right, flow, finishing both ways. I think it just unlocked a little more. And then Mike saying, we're going to play small. We'll have Amari rolling, we'll have guys running wide, we'll have shooters around and we'll let Steve go to work.
- [16:30]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [16:31]
Steve Nash
And so that I think those two kind of things happening at the same time. Set me up for a lot of success and set our team up.
- [16:39]
Pat McAfee
Yeah. And like a lot of, one of the, a lot of the conversations wasn't really talked about that much about guys doing the 50, 40, 90 thing. You know, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think Reggie did it, you know, once maybe in the 90s.
- [16:51]
Steve Nash
I think bird did.
- [16:52]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, I think Bird did it. I'm not quite sure if Ray had done it yet. Maybe you can always look that up. Not quite sure. But it became a thing when you were doing because it was like, oh shit, every year, like once you got, once you got into your pocket, it was like 50 from the field, 40 from three, 90 from the free throw line.
- [17:10]
Steve Nash
Yeah.
- [17:11]
Pat McAfee
And everybody was trying to figure out a way how they could obtain that, you know, like everybody's like trying to do that now. Like everyone, not only 50, 40, 90, but now everyone is playing four out.
- [17:23]
Steve Nash
Yeah.
- [17:24]
Pat McAfee
One in, you got a guard or five out.
- [17:27]
Steve Nash
Yeah.
- [17:27]
Pat McAfee
You know, and trying to figure out.
- [17:29]
Steve Nash
How to create space.
- [17:30]
Pat McAfee
Create space. Like, you know, you said in 2004 or 2005, like when you went to Phoenix, you know, we remember fucking San Antonio, two bigs, Detroit, two bigs. Miami played with two bigs, you know, like Sacramento, two bigs. Like everybody were playing two bigs. And I don't think that you. And I don't think that Mike gets enough credit for revolutionizing the game to where it is today. You know, they always talk about players, they talk about how transcendent a player can be. You know, Magic and Bird and you know, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe and Michael and Steph Curry and all, you know, you're saying yourself, I don't think that you. And first of all your style of play, how you and Dantoni mirrored so easily to transcend the game, that's that.
- [18:23]
LeBron James
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- [19:13]
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- [19:42]
Pat McAfee
Is the game today? Yeah, you guys were before his time. The true essence of before it's time.
- [19:48]
Steve Nash
Well, I think it was right at the right time because the rules were changing too, so you couldn't like have two hands on a guy anymore. You know, when I came in the league, you could like literally hold a guy's hip and shot.
- [20:00]
Pat McAfee
Oh, Derek Harper, like just stuck.
- [20:04]
Steve Nash
I'm like, what am I supposed, what am I supposed to do with this? Right? I mean, you go across the lane, bam. Like it was different. And that was the traditional way the game was played, that physicality, you know, the league, I think wisely wanted to make it a more free flowing, open highlight. The athleticism, which, you know, going to talk about it later, you know, where that's taken us and how we got here, which I think is amazing. So like, you think, think about it. We were small. There's rim protectors, you got Timmy, you got Shaq, you got all these guys around. We didn't have that, but we did have Amari, you know, who has unbelievable feet and hands and athleticism. So how can we cope defensively not being a rim protection team, by one being different, switching more, you know, trying to find ways to junk up the game in that respect. And on the offensive side, how can we blow teams away? And so it was, it was an amazing time for me in a sense because I think I had just taken my game, my skills, my confidence to a new level. And then Mike opened the floor up play. But again, like it was a precursor because we hadn't fully committed as a league.
- [21:13]
Pat McAfee
Right.
- [21:14]
Steve Nash
We hadn't committed totally to three ball, you know, we hadn't committed totally to the analytics at all, you know. Oh, for sure.
- [21:19]
Pat McAfee
I mean, they talked about you guys, like why seven seconds or less, like why you guys got to get up the floor so fast, like let things develop.
- [21:27]
Steve Nash
Sure.
- [21:27]
Pat McAfee
Or why you guys are playing four out, one in, like it's not the league what it is today or at that time. And so, you know, it was kind of like, you Know, they. They didn't. It's always that. That it gets to that point when it's not. Has not been done before, you know, and. But it was always respected because of. And feared. Yeah, that was one of the things that you knew you had to get a good night's rest before playing y'all.
- [21:54]
Steve Nash
Yeah.
- [21:55]
Pat McAfee
Because if you ain't ready to run, you'll get your ass ran out of the gym.
- [21:59]
Steve Nash
You know, like, nice for you to say that, but I think, like, I remember we started the year like 31 and 5 or something. And I think what we notice is, like, by the fourth quarter, teams were done. A lot of times, teams were done. They. They. The relentless pace. Pace after. Makes getting it out. And I'm just going and happy to throw ahead or happy just to take it, or if it's semi transition or, you know, secondary break, we're straight into our drag action. We're running the floor. We're getting to it against the defense that's trying to get back. So as the game wears on and we're relentless with that, you know, I think it really. That was as much a precursor because that's. That's the part maybe we don't talk about as much is that. That relentless knee. Now. Our team's actually slowed down a little after that first year. Like, so much so that I think even that first year, we'd be a bottom team in pace nowadays. So that's one of the things, like, we were thought of as the seven seconds left, playing with this crazy pace. Not even close to where it's playing. Right. Not even close. So I think, like, we were appreciating precursor. I think there's an influence there. I think a lot more teams started to say, I don't have a Timmy, I don't have a Shaq. You know, I got a guy that can kind of protect the room. He's not skilled, so he hurts us in other ways. So how can we find. And so it. What's happened is the profile of height and has gone like this. Like, for. I think while today's game, offensively, I would have been even better.
- [23:25]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [23:25]
Steve Nash
Defensively would have been harder.
- [23:27]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [23:28]
Steve Nash
It's hard for small guards in today's game. Like, anyone. Like, unless you're like a big six three, like six three and under. Like, it's hard because the court has spread so far. You have to cover guys in space. There's less small players out there. You gotta cover guys that are bigger, stronger, spacing five out, rim rollers, whatever. It May be you're on attack at all times and that position too, like you can try to hide and guard the two or three or whatever on certain teams, but it's becoming harder and harder to do that because the amount of shooting, amount of length, like you know, there's always someone out there that can drive a closeout on good teams nowadays that are like the fourth option. Right. That's where the game is continued to evolve and revolutionize. But I think like back then we were making teams fearful because they knew that they had to if they didn't stay with us with the pace, it's going to be 20 points before you know it.
- [24:22]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure.
- [24:22]
Steve Nash
And then you can't get back in because you're tired. Right, right. So that was a precursor, but still like not even close to where we are today. But man, it was. Those were some fun teams. Mike was unbelievable. I think it like putting us in that position and then, you know, for me I think it, it was the confluence of the rules being less physical, more open that allowed me to really highlight my creativity. How to exploit space, how to find angles. Like you said, I had to be so greedy with my angles just cause I wasn't as athletic as most of the guys I'm playing against. But incredible time. And you see it now, you see it around the league, the seeds of that now.
- [25:00]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure. It's blossomed. For sure. Shout out man. Mike D'Antoni one time. Shout out Mike Dantoni. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
- [25:09]
Steve Nash
Definitely taught me a lot. You know, as someone who's always looking for that next rush. Whether it's driving the lane or threading the needle, we get it. You need that excitement. And let me tell you, I found it in Audible. No joke. These audiobooks have me on the edge of my seat. Whether on a long drive or in a recovery session. From heart pounding thrillers to epic adventures, these stories have you on the edge of your seat. Like you're right in the middle of the action. They've got these Audible originals that are absolutely amazing. Plus all the bestsellers you've been meaning to check out. The best part, you can get started with a free 30 day trial at audible.com audible knows there's no greater thrill out there than yours. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. Sign up for a 30 day free trial on audible.com game and dive into a world of new thrills. That's audible.comg a m e. In this episode, LeBron mentioned the 29 guy or 29 ing, essentially, that is the help defense's opportunity to come help and be in the lane, not guarding their designated offensive player, but playing in a zone or in a help position. You only have under three seconds. So in the league, we say the 29 guy or 2.9 for the amount of time you're allowed to spend in the lane without guarding your direct offensive player. We also talked about the X out guy in this conversation. So essentially, if we have two shooters stacked on offense in a pick and roll, here comes the pick and roll, here comes the ball handler. This defender rolls. Obviously we have defenders all over the floor here. As the roller rolls, usually it's this cornerman's opportunity to come in and help. This X takes up this position between the two offensive players and then takes the first pass, wherever it goes. And then the original rotator is going to now take his original man.
- [27:24]
Pat McAfee
We continue to talk about, you know, you in Phoenix and, and when you guys were, you know, seven seconds or less and four hour, one in or whatever the case may be or sometimes even, you know, you know, I mean, sometimes Matrix even be at the five, you know, Channing Fry or Channing Frye, you know, be at the five. But one thing that I noticed that wasn't really being done a lot in our league was the, the dribble up, pull up threes, you know, that you kind of mastered. You know, I can only remember maybe one guy in our league, maybe a couple guys I know, big shot Bill Ups, sure. You know, he was really good with his rocker pull up. But you kind of kind of mastered that. And was it something that was just like, did it just something that you worked on or just kind of clicked or was like, okay, in order for us to really expand our offense, that had to be done a bit of everything.
- [28:12]
Steve Nash
You know, I mean, I remember guys did it like, I remember Tim Hardaway used to pull up from three and stuff. But like, back then we just didn't shoot. As for me, again, like, just the need to like exploit space and time. And so I practiced it, you know, make a couple. You're like, I can repeat that. Now that he practice it like full speed. Get him on his heels, pull up a three.
- [28:33]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:34]
Steve Nash
If I can make that like a, an efficient shot, that's a weapon. Oh, for sure.
- [28:39]
Pat McAfee
Especially like, defense has to keep. They come up higher, higher, higher, huh?
- [28:44]
Steve Nash
You know, you see it like with Stephen, like how he's, you know, I wanted to shoot close to the line. You know, if I grew up today, I'D probably shoot deeper, but, you know, for sure we were coming from an area where, like, you don't take those shots, you don't take a bunch of threes, like throw it in the poles. It was the opposite. It was almost looked down upon.
- [29:00]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [29:01]
Steve Nash
So you're trying to get close to the line and pull. But what's. What Steph has been brilliant at is drawing the whole defense out. And now, like the culture, like every night you see guys take threes, two, three feet behind. It's not just Steph. It's like the whole league takes threes. You take threes from out here. Whereas I don't think in the first three, four, five years of your career, you're trying to step a yard.
- [29:21]
Pat McAfee
You know, it was only if it was. The clock was going down.
- [29:24]
Steve Nash
Clock was going.
- [29:24]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, literally, like.
- [29:26]
Steve Nash
Right. So I felt like I had an advantage because I could push the ball hard at the defense. And you. You have a decision to make. You have a decision. And. And this kind of goes into how I played in general, but you had a decision to make. Are you gonna get up above the three point line? @ which point I can go by you, or are you gonna get on your heels? At which point I had the three. You know, I think it also came a little bit from. I essentially played out of a hesitation.
- [29:50]
Pat McAfee
So.
- [29:51]
Steve Nash
And that I would say that was such a key to my game because I didn't have to work that hard. And basically what I was saying just had the. Just. Just dance and hold the ball, let it hang. And I could. I could have it hang right here. So you couldn't reach for it if you did, I could just go through your arm. But at the same time, if you got on your heels, I could go up. But what I was really doing is baiting you to get too close.
- [30:20]
Pat McAfee
Yeah.
- [30:21]
Steve Nash
So as it hangs, you have a decision to make. Do you want to respect that he might go by me, or do I want to close the gap? Because he could shoot. And so. And then if he didn't come, I could just do it again. So nowadays we stop and we shoot from here. But back then, I could walk my guide 12, 15ft sometimes because they were fearful that I was gonna go by them and create havoc. And then just one hesi, two, hesi, three. Now I'm at 14, 15ft. Back in the day, that was a great shot.
- [30:46]
Pat McAfee
Right, right, right, right.
- [30:47]
Steve Nash
Right. Now we're eliminating those and we're shooting them from here.
- [30:50]
Pat McAfee
Right.
- [30:51]
Steve Nash
But so for me, I didn't have to. Da, da, da, da. Six, seven. Hard dribble moves to get to my spot. I could just skip, skip, hang the ball, keep it away from you, and just ask, you coming or not?
- [31:02]
Pat McAfee
Where the hell you get that swag from? Cause you said, I grew up playing lacrosse. Hockey. That right here. That ain't them. Ain't hockey moves. That ain't hockey swag. That ain't lacrosse swag.
- [31:16]
Steve Nash
There's little bits in there. There's little bits in there. So, like, I remember at hockey camp when I was, like, 11. 11 years old, you know, just a little guy, and the coach stopped the camp and said, steve, show me that head fake. We're just, like, huddled up. I didn't know what he meant. He's like, you know that? And he's like. Every time you come up on a guy, you just. Your head just starts going. And he's like. And they get on their heels, he's like, show the guys. And it was the first thing I didn't know I was doing that. I was just trying to get him off balance.
- [31:44]
Pat McAfee
Right, right, right.
- [31:45]
Steve Nash
So I think there was something that I always just innately liked about rhythm. Just changing your balance, getting you to lean one way or the other. Same in soccer, too. You show a little bit too much of the ball, but, you know, the last second. And so lacrosse, too, like, you. You know, you're trying to basically get a guy on this wrong foot or whatever, maybe. So I think it was in there from a deception standpoint. And that just to me, like. And then, like, started playing basketball. Fell in love with it. Like the First Air Jordan 1, Spike Lee commercial.
- [32:20]
Pat McAfee
There you go. Nas coming out now.
- [32:22]
Steve Nash
It's coming out in the eighth grade, right? When I started playing seventh grade, summer going into eighth grade, I was like, this world's amazing. And then, I mean, let's also just be real. Like, I wanted to be black. Listen, all the best players in the world were black. All the best rappers, you know, Listen. So I'm trying to emulate anyone who had something about them, right? Something. Had some, you know, some way to deceive that. Just the beautiful.
- [32:48]
Pat McAfee
It's funny. It's so funny you say that, because we say the same about ar. We were like, ar. There's no way. There's no way you learned that in Arkansas. It's like Marquis Moore is. We call him smooth on the team. It's like, no, that I'm not believing you from Arkansas. You got to be from New Jersey or whatever. All of that. You got that, like, you didn't learn that shit in Arkansas.
- [33:08]
Steve Nash
That's the thing. I'm sure he like me was like, I want to do more with the ball.
- [33:11]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, Yeah.
- [33:12]
Steve Nash
I want to be able to beat better players off the dribble. I want to, you know, you want to emulate the greats. And for me, that was an exciting way to play. Was like watching, you know, Hardaway, killer crossover or Kenny Anderson or these guys I grew up watching were just wizards with the ball, you know, Like, Isaiah was my hero. Like, just like, you know, his handle was amazing. His ability to create space shots. So that's what I wanted to be, right? I wanted to be that. And so I would be out there practicing all the time, like just trying to, you know, and then you go play and you're trying to do it and then you start getting a little success with it and you build.
- [33:46]
Pat McAfee
I just build on it.
- [33:47]
Steve Nash
And I think like eventually just playing and recognizing all I need is my hesi. I can just, you know. Oh, you don't. You're not coming one more. You're not coming one more.
- [33:57]
Pat McAfee
Oh, you're okay.
- [33:58]
Steve Nash
I'm up. Oh, you're too close. Gone right. It made the game simple. I didn't have, like I said, have to make too many dribble moves. I can pull, I could go left, I could go across, you know, you could do it out of the right hand too. So I always preferred playing out of my left. It was more like natural for me. But I think funny enough because I sprained my ankle like in the 10th grade and refused to take time off. So like I went from a left foot jumper, not that I was ever a jumper, but left foot jumper to a right foot jumper. Just because this ankle still to this day is not as the same, not as good, right. I just never. I was like, I'm playing through this six weeks, I should be sitting down. And so I think I just was better pushing off my right. So I prefer playing out of my left. And it's funny, right, how all these little things add up to something, you know, I learned to play out of my right. Of course, it's your right hand. But like that saved me so much as a player. Energy, simplicity, like getting myself in trouble. Pick and roll setups, same as the hip swivel. Like I never wanted to turn my back as a six, some barely over six foot guard. I don't want to have my back to the basket. I want you to always feel the pressure I'm putting on you. So if I ever did have to turn my back, it was only to get back around. So one of the things I did was really a hesi is a hip swivel.
- [35:17]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:18]
Steve Nash
So 1, 2, 3, you know, pop, pop. And then what are you gonna do? You're gonna come tight. You know, I'm gonna go by you. You fall off, I got the pull up. If I feel like you think you know what's going on, heart, yank it back, you know? So it all just kind of developed out of necessity and then realizing how efficient I can be playing out of hesitation. It really helped me in pick and roll setups, too, for sure. Because I would just play one on one. I wouldn't tell you the screenplay coming.
- [35:47]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.
- [35:50]
Steve Nash
As soon as you start. So off I go.
- [35:51]
Pat McAfee
So you don't lean in one way, you go another way.
- [35:53]
Steve Nash
100. And my belief in the pick and roll is like. And they say this as kids, but we don't really, I don't think, drill down enough for me. The pick and roll was made in the setup because that gave me space. So if I got. If you couldn't touch me when I'm coming off, I got you leaning so that sometimes would be split right between before the screen, not after. Go. Go buy him this way one time just to put him on guard. Right? Just to put him on guard. I might go by you. Now you don't. It's hard to press up.
- [36:20]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, it's hard to press up.
- [36:21]
Steve Nash
You know, so you got the reject. You got to just go play out of the hesi, you know, but essentially just trying to set your defender up to not be able to get into you. Right. And so then what. What does that do? So now I'm off. He can't touch me now. The big is isolated. Now it's me and you. And then the. And the roller's going, and you're taught to drop with the roller. Well, if you don't, someone's coming in. I got the corner. You know, I still got the ISO and the big. So getting that yard of space is where the guard can't shove. You allow the big to drop. Now the big is nailed to you. They have to guard you. And so now I'm in charge. I can hard dribble pole. I can do my gretzky. I can. You don't want to come. I got the. I can. I can bait you, floater, and of course, pocket pass. Of course, guy from the corner comes. But to me, it all started by just playing out of the hesi, getting him leaning. Oh, off I go. You're not attached, you know, and then, you know, you know, a coach says, stay attached, stay attached. So I'm going to use that against you.
- [37:29]
Pat McAfee
Yep.
- [37:29]
Steve Nash
So one foul, you know, two, you sit to the back, right? So now we're playing. Now I'm. Now I'm trying to get inside your head. Now I know you don't want to get a second one, even if you're faking it for coach, right? So then I might be like, I'll let you win on the hesi. So, hey, come follow me off your attach. Stop, hit me, fall over to sit down. So you know you're getting in the head. So trying to just use the hesi to be able to get off clean on a pick and roll. Now the pocket's huge because that big's dropping. He's isolated on me. He thinks I might go buy him and the roller. So he's dropping. No one can contest the pocket. It's my world. I can exploit it how I want.
- [38:10]
Pat McAfee
And you've created so much more opportunity for the other four guys now because now you've already got your guy off of you. It's a. It's a chain of events that happened. Now the big is looking at his guard that was guarding you. He's off the body. So he's like, I got to protect. Protect you more. Right? Because you off Nash body. Now the two nine guys, like, now I got to protect the big. He's in there now. Now it's just. Now it's just a numbers game now.
- [38:32]
Steve Nash
But this is what you do. And. And, you know, and then jump up to the corner, throw the big things. You see Luca, and you do it. You know, all those little things you can do. You know, the X out guy, he's there. And then. So it's, you know, this one or that one, whatever it is, but you are in charge, and you know their rotations. And if all else fails, you know, I would do the stop, Let him run me over, or sometimes let him fight. Just. Just give him enough space to try to fight through and pull up.
- [38:58]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:00]
Steve Nash
You know, so you just had all these little tools to try to make the defender be less aggressive, be a little on edge. Cause when they're on edge, you can run inside out, and you're gone the other way.
- [39:12]
Pat McAfee
They get the peeking at it. They're trying to see where the screen is coming from now. And now reject happens, right?
- [39:18]
Steve Nash
And whether it's like they know it's the 10th time in a row we're running angle. That's fine. But I never would like give it away, right? Or sometimes give it away.
- [39:26]
Pat McAfee
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
- [39:27]
Steve Nash
So just always making the defender feel like I don't know what's coming next. I think that really helped me make it simple and exploit. I mean, I see you doing the same thing. You don't have to, you know, you can just use your size straight bank than ability. But then the computer turns on when whatever you've created with your size. Now you can spray the ball over.
- [39:48]
Pat McAfee
The gym or get to the deception game.
- [39:50]
Steve Nash
That's it. Deception.
- [39:51]
Pat McAfee
That was it.
- [39:52]
Steve Nash
I wasn't.
- [39:52]
Pat McAfee
You was the master of the deception game.
- [39:54]
Steve Nash
I wasn't fast, you know, like I was fast on the street. I wasn't fast in the league. So, you know, like I had to be deceptive. And. And that was that. That was a huge like the hesi, the separation pick and roll, like all that stuff just had a huge impact on how I was able to be successful.
- [40:12]
Pat McAfee
You just broken. Listen. Steve Nash has broke down for all the 6 foot 2 and under guys that want to play the game that may not be faster, stronger, more athletic. He just broke it down on how you can still, you know, master your craft and be. It's a deception game and also make.
- [40:33]
Steve Nash
Hundreds of shots a day because if you can't shoot, you can't play. Especially today. You can't shoot. You can't play today for sure. Especially because small guys can't really guard. You have to fake it till you make it couple, maybe even in the league. How many small guys in our league can really guard just because of size? Space guy's gonna jump over bully, whatever it is. So you have to be able to shoot.
- [40:55]
Pat McAfee
You can make shots. It'll keep you on the court.
- [40:57]
Steve Nash
That's right. And then like that's the other part. I think that. But what I love about today's game is more people making plays. So if you can also just make the simple one, drive a closeout, right?
- [41:09]
Pat McAfee
Start the blender.
- [41:09]
Steve Nash
Start the blender.
- [41:10]
Pat McAfee
Start the blender.
- [41:11]
Steve Nash
Two on one over there. Just simple, early, early simple. Like if you can do that, you can play on so many teams.
- [41:18]
Pat McAfee
I don't know if people realize how much a simple. You catch two on one, the cadence between if you make the pass on time on target or if you hesitate, how much it throws the guy off from his shot, his rhythm.
- [41:37]
Steve Nash
Great point. You can really break someone's rhythm by, you know, because they're expecting swing swing in their pocket. As a rhythm skill, as a rhythm player, like, you know, that's part of it. But also just in this league with the athletes that split second could be contested or uncontested. It could be blocked or not blocked. Could be a number of things. It leads to a turnover, right? Even the pass to him, that deflection catches it if it's not out of bound catching, foot stuck in the corner, you know, so being able to play simple, play quick, you know, not being. I remember my rookie year, Danny Ainge is my coach. He's like. He's like, play quick but don't hurry. Play quick but don't hurry. You know, I think as young players, we get. We want to hurry. We're in a rush to do things. Whereas, you know, like now, when you've mastered the craft, like, you do the game just slow, slow right down. You're moving the chess pieces instead of them moving.
- [42:35]
Pat McAfee
Yep, exactly, exactly, exactly.
- [42:42]
Steve Nash
How's that work?
- [42:43]
Pat McAfee
It's not bad. I mean, yeah, it's definitely. It's a conversation of wine. It's not bad, though.
- [42:50]
Steve Nash
It's not bad.
- [42:50]
Pat McAfee
It's not bad. I mean, it's not bad. It's like a Tuesday night in Indianapolis at the Thunderdome. At the Thunderdome.
- [42:56]
Steve Nash
I take it usually snobby wine drinkers say no to this stuff.
- [43:01]
Pat McAfee
It's not bad.
- [43:03]
Steve Nash
Thanks for watching. Mind the game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content.
- [43:08]
Pat McAfee
It.