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- [00:00]
A
All right, which is the one? This guy?
- [00:12]
B
Oh, I am. Oh, right here. Moose. And the order? Shampoo. 10.
- [00:16]
A
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.
- [00:18]
B
It's a little sip. I ain't even ate yet today.
- [00:22]
A
Me neither. We rol. Welcome back to Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and wondering. In this episode, we discuss the playmaker, the initiator, the heliocentric player that runs the team, breaks the first line of defense, plays cat and mouse. In this era, they have to be able to make plays for their teammates, not just score and vice versa. In the old days, it was the point guard that ran the team, but wasn't necessarily taxed with scoring the ball. Nowadays, we've all become a similar position player that's able to control the game and make plays, whether it's for others or for themselves. Hope you enjoyed this episode of Mind the Game. Please, like, comment and subscribe. Well, first, how's the knee?
- [01:32]
B
Do you see me limp in here?
- [01:35]
A
You know, I thought. I thought I'd ask.
- [01:37]
B
Oh, man. Like I said, last. Last episode, man, it's. It's been a hell of a lot better. But it's getting better, though.
- [01:42]
A
Yeah.
- [01:43]
B
I mean, last time we spoke, I was, you know, but, you know, it's getting better. Yeah, it's getting better.
- [01:49]
A
So, you know, we also spoke about your off season, how, like, that starts the cycle again for next year, you know, so you don't really take time off. You just do other things.
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B
Right.
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A
You take a little bit off and you start doing things. So how do you keep yourself, your mind, your body active and busy when you're dealing with that?
- [02:06]
B
Yeah, I mean, and that's the most challenging thing. And, you know, even though I can't, like, do much as far as, like, lower body stuff, I'm still, like, in the weight room still. Get it in. Get it in. Upper body. You know, the one thing I am able to do a little bit is ride, like a stationary bike.
- [02:20]
A
Okay.
- [02:21]
B
Just to kind of keep the blood flowing and things of that nature, keep the momentum, the, you know, the flexibility as much as possible in the knee. You know, in the knee. But it's definitely. I'm not a guy that likes to sit around same. You know, I have a lot of energy and I hate sitting around. So this has definitely been almost two weeks after the season. You know, they always tell you to take time off. I'm just not that guy.
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A
Stir crazy.
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B
Yeah. I'm going crazy.
- [02:45]
A
I'm the same. I'm the same. How does that like. What's that like for you? Like, for me, I'm anxious.
- [02:51]
B
Yeah.
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A
I can't get a sweat.
- [02:52]
B
Yeah.
- [02:53]
A
What's your day like if you're like, I don't know when I'm fitting my workout in.
- [02:56]
B
Right. It's just the same. I mean, you just. It's just something that's so abnormal, you know, when it comes to just not being able to work out, not being able to sweat, you know, and things of that nature. So I guess you kind of. You make up for it by getting the steam room, you know, getting a sauna, you know, sit outside, you know. You know, I can mess around a little bit with my daughter, you know, so that definitely helps. Just try to stay active in some way, shape or form.
- [03:21]
A
You get in the pool at all?
- [03:23]
B
You know what? I don't spend much time in the pool, but it's something I think I should.
- [03:27]
A
Yeah, same. I don't either.
- [03:29]
B
But it's great for her. Yeah. But it's definitely great for it. I mean, it takes all the pressure off of you when it comes to it. Unloads all the joints and things of that nature. So, you know, my daughter is a big pool girl, so that definitely is a reason for me to get in it.
- [03:44]
A
That's cool.
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B
And mess around with her.
- [03:46]
A
That's cool. Well, these playoffs have been amazing. Second round, I believe the first six games the road team won, which is.
- [03:56]
B
Is that the first time?
- [03:57]
A
I think it's.
- [03:58]
B
It has to be the first time in NBA history.
- [03:59]
A
First time. I think one time, like in 80 or 81, the road team won 49% of games in the playoffs. But typically, you know, that's. That's something that's changing, I think with three point variance and we can get into that. But I thought one of the things that we may want to touch on before we get into the bulk of this episode or discussion is some of these role players stepping up. You know, we've seen Mikhail Bridges make some big defensive plays. We've seen, you know, Hart for the Knicks just bring that energy and kind of do everything on the floor. Caruso recently had big moments. Nemhard Nismith, Nemhard niecemith, Christian Brown, Buddy Heald stepped up. Talk a little bit about, like, role players and how important it is to have. For them to have their moments, one moments in time, but also just that relentless competitive nature from. From your supporting act.
- [04:54]
B
I mean, we both know that in order for you to have success in our league, the role players have to play a huge role Isn't that right? You know, they have to be able to star in their role and be super confident in that role. They're not trying to be the star player. They're to trying, you know, they're not trying to go outside of what they do. They know exactly what their objective is and they go do it by tee, you know, and, you know, the people that we just named, you know, so far in the post season, they've literally just been doing their job and it's the reason why they've had some success. You know, you look at, you know, Indiana at this point right now, you know, up three one, you know, versus Cleveland, has a lot to do with their role players. And yes, we've seen a big, big time shot by Halliburton. You know, we've seen the big time, you know, shots by Pascal Siakam, you know, but those role player guys, you know, the Nemhar, the Nismifs, you know, those guys, you know, T.J. mcConnell, you know, those guys have been coming in and just, they haven't let the spark go down, you know, you know, when they, when guys come in off the bench and those role players come out with the bench or those star players go to the bench, those guys just keep it going, you know, so that's why the success has been happening.
- [05:59]
A
You can't win without their efforts. No contributions, right?
- [06:01]
B
Absolutely not.
- [06:02]
A
There's too many pockets in games. There's too many things happening. You know, it was interesting thinking last night, what was it? Game for okc, Denver. There was a period where it was both benches that were carrying that game. Making threes, making plays, getting stops, you know, especially they played Friday night, Sunday lunchtime. Legs are tired. You need guys to step up and make those plays.
- [06:22]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because, I mean, you know, you being a star player, you know, I've had my moments as a star player. You know, the bulk of the, the responsibility is gonna be on us, you know, and that's from a, you know, a game plan situation, from a mindset, from holding everybody accountable to getting everybody, making sure everybody's in the right position and things of that nature. And it's taxing, especially in the postseason game, you know, you're gonna have four or five guys matched up against you from, you know, bigger guys, taller guys, you know, smaller guys that want to just get up underneath you, you know, and it could be taxing. And like you said, having a Friday night game and then going to a Saturday afternoon game less than 48 hours, that's when those Role players, they come in with that energy, you know, maybe the guy that didn't play as much Friday night, you know, now you give him those, those minutes, you know, that Saturday afternoon, and you get that spark that you needed, the team, you know, that team needed. And yeah, that's what it's about.
- [07:21]
A
Yeah, I always, I always say too, I might have said it on our, on our show here, but you know, leadership hierarchy and buy in. And like every round of the playoffs, you see that on every team becoming clearer and clearer. Obviously, teams go up and down. You know, Cleveland's in a bad moment, some injuries kind of out of rhythm. Indiana's like flying. So you get different variants within there, but just that leadership hierarchy, buy in and like that is where the role players really thrive. When they understand, they buy in. We know who the leader is or the stars. We know, you know, that everyone believes in the coach and has buy in on their staff. But it's that hierarchy, right, that becomes so important, that kind of ties that allows you to weather tough nights or bad moments in a series, because it's always going to come right. The league's too good to like, just cruise through. So it's always fascinating to see every round how that kind of gets more and more streamlined and you can kind of see the identity of team.
- [08:14]
B
I mean, you could look at some of the, you know, the best championship runs, some, even some of the best finals moments has come from guys being stars in their roles. You know, all the, all the shots big shot Bob made, you know, the shots Derek Fisher made.
- [08:29]
A
Right.
- [08:29]
B
This shot. Yeah. Steve Kerr, John Paxton, you know, Ray Allen, you know, I was a part of that one, you know, and those guys were like, when you talk about guys being stars in their role, to a T, you know, those guys make big plays and the best thing about it, they don't ever jump outside of what they are and who they are and what they commit to the team, you know. And, you know, we've had some great moments throughout NBA history from some of the greatest guys that just literally just started their role at that particular time, for sure.
- [09:09]
A
This episode is sponsored in part by American Express. American Express knows that for an obsessive basketball fan like me, the playoffs mean a lot of travel time. Between broadcasting games and catching up with old teammates, I'm on the road almost every week from Boston to LA and everywhere in between. After all these years, I've learned that the journey is as important as the destination. That's why I've always tried to find a spot to stretch, grab a coffee, and get my mind right before heading over to the arena. Fortunately, there's a card that makes every part of that journey better. With amex Platinum, you earn five times membership rewards points on prepaid hotels and flights booked through amextravel.com on up to $500,000 on flight purchases per year. Plus you get access to the Centurion Lounge, which makes travel that much more enjoyable. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. For more information, visit americanexpress.com travel well, let me flip it to the other side of this. This whole thing, that's the star players, right? So we talked about, about Anthony Edwards and the step he took as a playmaker. But let's take this all the way back. You know, now we have this, whether you call it the heliocentric player, the initiator. When I grew up, you know, long time ago, you know, when I started playing this game in the late 80s, started late, but when I started playing, you were taught to be a true point guard.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah.
- [10:40]
A
Run your team, make your teammates better, shoot less, but make them make a high percentage. Shoot when you're able to make plays when it counts, you know. And conversely, the scorers in the 80s and 90s, they weren't asked to pass.
- [10:56]
B
The ball at all, right?
- [10:57]
A
They were asked to score. And I have some numbers here. So in 95 top 10 scorers in the NBA, only one averaged over five assists. I think it was MJ, but think about that one assist, you know, 95, okay? 1995, same year, top 10 assists in the league. Top 10 guys in assists, five, only five averaged over 15 points a game, right? So, like, there's a discrepancy between points and assists. You go to zero, five top 10 scores, five averaged over five assists. So it went from one to five, you know, and then eight of the top 10 assist guys averaged over 15 points in 2015. Top 10 scorers, six averaged over five assists. And the top 10 assist guys, nine averaged over 15 points. Go to 20, 25. You know, you got. Of the top 10 scorers, eight averaged over five assists. So pretty much everybody, right, average over five assists. And the top ten assist guys, eight average over 15 points. So point guards weren't really taught 30, 40 years ago to, like, score the ball. You know, they're taught to run the team. Scorers weren't taught to pass the ball. Like, let's get them a shot, let's run them off screens, let's get them in the post, whatever it is. And then you know, back then it was three out to win, right? You had a power forward that played on the block, you had a center that played around the basket. You know, then the rules changed. We went to, you know, illegal D and hand checking. Rules changed, which led to pace in space. You know, spacing went from two bigs to one. Played a lot more off the elbow, a lot more of that wing mid post ISO game, try to space the floor. Then we went to spread, pick and roll, where guys are getting downhill. The play is in front of them now. Right. You know, in the old days when I came in the league, we'd throw it in the post. Two guys were lifted in the parking lot because of the legal defense rules. So a lot of times if you wanted to double, you're not always going to make a play out of that because you're going to throw it. They're already on their bike. It's going to go around the horn, someone's going to get an assist, but not the playmaker. Now that everyone's spreading the floor getting downhill, I think it's made a big difference. Add to that we've recognized the value of shooting. So the floor is low. I don't know if you've ever seen some of these clips of like the Suns Bowls finals where like, you know, guy comes off a screen and he runs to 17ft, not to three catches a shooter doesn't shoot. And then two guys are fighting for post position on the same team and throws in the post. Everyone's inside, so spacing's totally changed. So that creates space, having more space and then playing faster against unsettled defenses. So the analytics revolution, right? We recognize now that scoring in the first six to eight seconds of the shot clock or every six to eight seconds of the shot clock, your points for possession efficiency goes down, creating more possession. So there's more possessions. But also your efficiency is high when you're playing against an unsettled defense, right? So the game's changed in all these ways. You know, one of the other things is in order to combat, you know, these great players, we started switching everything. We want to take actions away. So now we look at the playoffs and everything's a pick on game, you know, other than maybe Denver and Golden State. But the pick on game is because for a number of reasons, they're switching everything. So why run a bunch of actions? They switch.
- [13:56]
B
Bring up the guy that you want to be in action and go from there.
- [13:59]
A
Bring up the guy, okay? And now it's about spacing. So all these factors have led us into a place where you need the lead guy not only to handle the ball, bring it up the court. You see Joker bring the ball up the court at seven feet yourself. You played, basically played point guard your whole career. So whoever is that playmaker, that decision maker, is the first line of attack and who can attack early. And it's now you have to be able to play cat and mouse. I think one of the things the casual fan has to understand, it looks random, it looks pick on, but the spacing, the angles, the opportunities, it's very nuanced because the defenses have gotten so sophisticated. Absolutely. When in your career, because I think you're naturally, you want to pass, you know, you just physically can score the ball with your skill and physical ability. But you won a playmake. When did you see the game and when did you kind of find a comfort in that? When did you see the game as far as how, when did the guys start to shift? When they had to make the play as well?
- [14:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean I came in at 03 where there was still two bigs on the block. You know, you still had teams with two bigs on the block and there was not a lot of space out there. And for the first few months of my rookie season, I did start at point guard. You know, I started that point guard alongside, you know, Ricky Davis was our 2 guard, Darius Miles, Carlos Boozer and Junior Celgalskis. And I was the point guard. So you know, I knew that, you know, coming in that I was have to get guys shots like, because like, I mean, you said it, you said, like you said in the 95 season, there was one guy that was in the top 10, scoring the average over five assists and that was MJ. You know, and you know, I always looked, I always thought to myself when I was growing up just watching basketball, his name was the shooting guard because he was the one that was shooting the ball right. You know, like, you know, and you know, and the point guard, you know, when you watch it, you know, me and my girl, my guys always talk about like, you know, when you're growing up watching the game, there was literally only maybe two guys ever bringing the ball up and that was the starting point guard and the backup point guard. There was not many guys bringing the ball up. You know, if you watch some of the, you know, you know, 80s games and even some of the early 90s games, like if you watch the Knicks, you know, when they have, you know, Mark Jackson, you know, John Starks, never brought the ball up. You know, Pat Ewing never got a rebound and busted out on the break. You know, you know, when, you know, even when Mark went to, you know, Indiana, you know, Reggie really, he never really brought the ball up, you know, and obviously Rick Smithson, Dale Davis, those guys didn't bust out on a break. You know, you had those guys, it was the point guard. He brings the ball up, he gets everybody involved. You know, he knows where guys should be, how they should move. He knows the system by the tee. And then, you know, the game started to shift, I think, you know, obviously I think, you know, you had guys like Grant Hill and Scottie Pippen, you know, Tony Kukoc, you know, you had these bigger, longer wings that point forwards, you know, that started to change the game, you know, but it was still, still minute, you know, Even in the 90s, it was not many guys, there was outliers, you know, but then you started to have like, you know, the early 2000s. And then when I started coming to the league, you had the Tracy McGrady's, you know, you know, Kobe would bust out, you know, you know, once I moved, you know, over and started playing the wing, then, you know, I started to be more of a point forward, you know, and the game started to shift, I believe, you know, probably, you know, late teens, you know, you know, obviously, you know, what you guys doing in Phoenix, you know, you guys had multiple bust out guys, some, you know, tricks would, you know, get the rebound and bust it out. And if you were ahead, he would throw it up ahead to you, you know, you know, Joe Johnson, you know, being a six, six wing, you know, but could bust out, you know, and the game just started to shift. And the way you guys played, you know, the way at times that San Antonio played when they decided that Timmy was just gonna be the five, then they started to realize, okay, we need to create more space for Timmy. And then that's when you had Tony, Manu, Michael Finley at times, you know, they brought in McDyess, you know, to give him more space. The game started to change then I would say late in the teens and you know, you know, our league, it's a copycat league.
- [18:17]
A
Sure.
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B
One team doing some with success. Okay. Then, you know, everybody starts to see if they have that one player where now we can surround him with space.
- [18:25]
A
Right.
- [18:26]
B
You know, and the game started to shift to like you said in 2025, now there's eight guys out of the top 10 scoring with five assists per game or more.
- [18:37]
A
Right.
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B
You Know, because now.
- [18:39]
A
And by the way, it's not five now. All of them are six, seven, eight.
- [18:42]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that just comes from now the responsibility. Responsibility of the main player and the. The responsibility of the guy that handles the ball. Not only are you responsible for scoring and putting us into action, you're also responsible for getting guys involved as well, because the defense is going to attract. You know, there's a lot of double teaming before you even get into the action. You know, guys come across half court. You know, guys, a double team. Steph Curry, soon as he crosses half court. We're not waiting for. We're not waiting for Draymond to come up until the pick and roll. We don't try to get the ball out your hands now. You know, you start hunting defensively where Anthony Edwards sees a matchup that he knows he's going to hunt. I want this guy to pick a role. And teams say, okay, well, we're going to. We know you're going to switch. And then as soon as we switch, we're going to fire. Get the ball out of your hands now. You have to be able to make a decision and make a play. So, you know, our game has definitely changed, you know, a lot. But, you know, it's not like you said to the normal fan, it's not random. It's not random or it's random with a purpose. With a purpose. Yes. Sometimes it looks a little chaos or a little chaotic at time, but it is definitely purposeful basketball when it comes to the way the game is played now, obviously in 2025 compared to 1995.
- [19:54]
A
Yeah, it's the positionless era. Right. Where positions are not what they used to be. You said a point guard, two guard. It's positionless basketball, and that can take on different looks. Right. Like you said, maybe a team plays without a center. Maybe your best player is Nikola Jokic. He's playing bring the ball up the court sometimes. But what it's done is we've now created rosters with shooting to create space for the creator, and then the creator has to be the one to knock the first domino down. So you're seeing guys that aren't necessarily traditional point guards. Get the ball in their hands, go try to break the first line of defense, because they have space puts defense in a bind. So defense have to get more clever now, like you said, are they firing, hitting, getting the ball out of his hands? Are they going to a soft zone? Whatever it is that they're doing, they got to be able to make that decision, right? Because you want them to have the ball. Because you want to try to go early when the team's, when the defense is not set. At the same time, when they junk it up, they got to be able.
- [20:50]
B
To read and react, right? I mean, and it's always a, it's like a fine line or whatever the case may be. So you look at a guy like Allen Iverson, who, 6 foot 6 one, if you want to be generous, you know, a buck 80, you know, and. But he came into our league as a flat out score, you know, but if it was the 80s or, or, or 90s, it would have automatically been he's the point guard. That is your body type. That is what you look like. And they even tried it early on when he got to the Sixers, you know, Jerry Stackhouse was there still. I believe Derrick Coleman was there still. Okay, you're the point guard. You're 6 foot 180. You're the point guard.
- [21:27]
A
You handle the ball.
- [21:28]
B
You bring, yeah, and then you, you know, one point. Throughout his rookie year, he goes five straight games with 40 points, right? Like, oh, shit, he's not the fucking point guard. This guy's a scorer. And we need to bring someone in, Eric Chenault.
- [21:42]
A
But isn't that interesting? They went in that era, we went, oh, he scored 45 times. He's got to be our two guard. In our era, we would just be like, the ball's in his hands, balls in his hands.
- [21:51]
B
It will be John Morant, right? It would be John Moran. It would be Derrick Rose. When Derrick Rose, you know, was at his height, it's not like, okay, put the ball in his hands. Let's create instant offense, quick offense, get into the, get into it, and we figure out the rest later.
- [22:05]
A
Right?
- [22:05]
B
You know, so the game's definitely changing. It is.
- [22:07]
A
And it's fun to see like the different types of playmakers, the different types of initiators, you know, I mean, obviously, you know, one of the, like, kind of cornerstones is the James Harden player where he, you know, and Luka's a little bit like that now, where they have the ball, but they're amazing passers. You were like this. You're just in a way or your own category. But the guy that can, you know, get what they want offensively, whether it's to make their teammates better, read the defense, manipulate the defense, or they have the three ball. Both of them have the step back, both have the floater, you know, that player that can almost run everything through them, right? So what's happened now, I think, is we went from having that guy, you know, make all the plays, all the decisions. Defense is spreading the floor, we're shooting. Defense is getting a little better. Now. We're asking those shooters to be able to now play off a closeout. Yeah, they now, on the good teams, have to be able to put it on the floor, try to touch the paint again, create another closeout, open shot or a two on one. And I think that evolution, I think, is where fans got to really appreciate what's happening today. I think sometimes we think it's, you know, it's all too similar, but sometimes the beauty in it is that it's jazz, right? We're, you know, we're making it up as we go along. We're riffing. But out of principles, I think that's what's exciting about the game, that maybe certain common elements for the fan are difficult to read. I think that's where the game has been fun for me to see it go is seeing more people play out of principles than come down, get into a set. You know, Utah used to run the UCLA stuff. The other team used to run all that stuff, you know, different sets, which was cool, too, but now I love that it's more about reading and reacting in a random setting out of principles. Do you. Have you noticed a time when that, like. Because I feel like that's been the last four or five years. It's been like another reason in a coaching scenario, you can't take the chance to run a play. And if your lead guy does not have the ball, him not getting the ball. So we put the ball in their hand at the start. We just call up the worst defender we play pick on because. Because instead of running a set, everyone switches, especially if they're off the ball. Like, let's put Jalen Brunson in the corner. Let's run some action over here. Let's get it to. On the weak side. What if he doesn't get it? Now you got this third, fourth best player on your team making the decision in critical times in a playoff game. So it's interesting to me how quickly the game's evolving, how defenses are taking a step, then offenses are taking a step, and it's continually cat and mouse between offense and defense. Have you felt that over the last changing over the last five seasons?
- [24:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean, obviously, you know, when it, you know, our league, when it comes to, you know, pacing space, that's number one, you know, and if you do have any type of action you want to get into. That's where, you know, you want to try to get up the floor fast, you know, give yourself some more time, you know, with the shot clock to be able to get into the quick action, right? But it's not like, you know, like you said, it's not the old Utah where they running autos. It's not the triangle with Phil Jackson where you're hitting the pinch post and you got gaggle action on one side and things of that. No, it's now, you know, 77s quick. Get to a 77, which is a double drag. Get to it quick, let's see what they do. Or it's just a flat screen in the middle. Three guys on the baseline. You got your best player handling the ball. You got your second best player setting the pick and roll at the nail to see what the defense do. You're getting into the actions really fast, you know, and if you want to get your players like Joker or like you said or Luka or certain guys debunked on the low post and you give them a choice action where the guy brings the ball down, he's on the opposite block. You got one guy sending the pin down at the free throw line, you got the other guy sitting at the opposite block, and you allow your star player to decide which route he want to go. But these are just quick actions, you know, to be able to get to the action and then allow your star player to have time. And if he decides, hey, I can make a move here to make myself score or I know that so many eyes are on me, I'm gonna attract pressure. Four eyes, sometimes six eyes. Numbers, game start. I know I got three guys. I know we got a three on two on the backside, a four on three. Sometimes, you know, you got a super great player, you get a four on two, you know, you had two guys try to double. So that game is played every single night in our league, you know, by the best players and by the best coaches.
- [26:19]
A
I mean, it's always great to see a coach draw up a nice ato.
- [26:24]
B
Oh, it's beautiful in action.
- [26:25]
A
It's great, right? It's great. But the reality is, you know, in our league, they're going to switch so much of that stuff. It's hard to do on the fly. And it's not as beneficial as getting up and playing against an unsettled defense, right?
- [26:37]
B
So pushing is the best way to score, right?
- [26:39]
A
It's the best way to score in our league. And making sure that your lead guy has the balls, making the decisions time and time again. Because that is the pressure that breaks defenses over and over. And I think it's interesting. Let's talk about different types of playmakers. We talk about Anthony Edwards trying to now take that next step, which he is starting to really grow in that. But you see other guys that have had to take that step too, like Jayson Tatum. You know, he came in league more as a scorer. Now he's often bringing the ball up the court, often initiating the action, the one handling in pick and roll. And he's had to grow as a playmaker. Like when he breaks the pain for them and kicks it out with all those points, that's when they're one of the historically elite teams.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah, they're historically one of the best teams that the NBA has ever seen. And they start their blender, the word we've used so much. And the last thing you want to do as an opponent versus the Celtics is be put in the blender. Because there's too many guys that can do multiple things. They have too many guys that can shoot, dribble and create. You know, Jayson Tatum is able to break a guy down one on one. And he gets into the paint and you have X4 or X5 trapped in box. You gotta understand that his five, which is Al Horford or Porzingis, his ass is not in the dunker. He's on the three point line. And once he skips, now you got rotation and it's closeout game. Now he's swinging it to Jaylen Brown, or he's swinging it to Derrick White or swinging it to Jrue Holiday, swinging it to Peyton Pritchard. Now, now they're now the best. This is the best thing they do to get you in a blender, you know, and they spraying for threes. You know, they sprang for threes or get to the lane and dunking that which is going to be Tatum and Brown. So, you know, I think, you know, Jason Tatum's growth has allowed them as well. Obviously their personnel was fucking dynamic and great. We all know that they got, you know, the trade for Porzingis to be able to get jrue Holiday in the fashion they got him, made them even more elite. I mean, Al Horford coming back, you know, has given him another, you know, presence.
- [28:35]
A
He's so smart.
- [28:36]
B
He's so smart. You know, I've played against him my whole career or his whole career. Older than him, he's so smart. So the growth of Tatum and Brown has just allowed, you know, Joe and his coaching staff to even be even more dynamic, you know, and when you're going to have guys that have that growth mindset, it's like, okay, you know what? My first four years, I was really good in this league. I can ride this wave and be. I could probably be a Hall of Famer still, of course, but I want to continue to grow. And if I continue to grow, then our team automatically grows, you know, And I think JT and JB has done that.
- [29:21]
A
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- [30:49]
B
You think they get bored sometimes because they've been doing this?
- [30:52]
A
So almost prisoners are their success, you know, finals a bunch lately. They won it. They had incredible regular seasons. You know, you know what it's like when you're.
- [31:00]
B
Seems like sometimes, you know, it seems like they get bored sometimes with the. I don't want to say the process because they've, I mean they are who they are and they've, you know, when you look at Taylor Brown, they've. This is years and years and years and years.
- [31:13]
A
Years.
- [31:13]
B
They've punched their 10,000 hours, you know, and. But sometimes it seems like, you know. You know, they get, you know, sometimes they get a little bored because of how great they are, right? Not only as those two as individuals, but them as a team. And sometimes it looks like they get bored and.
- [31:29]
A
But yeah, I mean, in a way, I feel like that's part of why they got caught in those first two games against the Knicks. You know, up 20. It's easy, you know, in a sense. Then they stop. Maybe, like, the details, the spacing, going too soon or not waiting long enough and not getting downhill, not touching the paint, settling for longer jump shots. They're running out the other way. But, like, that's just the story of their team. We know they have another gear. And then they show it in game three, right? And so. And they showed it for three quarters of the first two games, so it's right there for them. But going back to playmaking, those guys are both. Jaylen Brown, too, has taken a jump as far as being able to play cat and mouse, read the defense. But you look around the league, look at some of these guys, like Jalen Brunson, Shea, these guys are supposed to be point guards, but they're actually more like two guards in a sense. So it's funny how it's kind of. It's all back. Well, it's like they can, of course, make plays, but they're so talented at scoring their footwork, they're finding the body, getting the line, whatever it may be. It's just interesting how the shape of your initiator, Initiator, like. Like his profile can be anything from Jalen Brunson to Nikola Jokic nowadays. Right? And that's what fascinates me about the game.
- [32:39]
B
That's the beauty of the game right there. Because you never know. You never know until that player starts to shape himself out, right? To what type of. I mean, as a coach, I mean, obviously, you know, you've been there and done that, but if you get a, you know, a young Nikola Jokic or young, you know, Jalen Brunson, and when you get them, it takes time to see how they shape out, to now be able to say, oh, this is how we're going to play, and this is what we need to build around these guys, you know, and the New York Knicks have built around Jalen Brunson on what his style is, you know, gritty guys, tough guys, long wing guys, and it's allowed him to be special in what he does. And like you said, being able to score the ball, you know, get to the free throw. Line, you know, he can, he's a three level scorer. Being able to get to the paint, you know, use his footwork, things of that nature. We always talk about guys who went to Villanova. That's one thing they gonna have, and that's great footwork. Never gonna be off balance, you know, and the same thing. Well, like you're saying, like, you know, you know, Shay, you know, you're able to build. How do you build that? And then you build around it. That's a great organization. That's a great coaching staff.
- [33:46]
A
Something to be said about that, like simplifying the way. Way we play, we play through this, this person, we, we support them with these type of players, you know, you're seeing obviously different shapes of the playmaker, but really the what, what everyone wants to build around is spacing, riding guys that can guard multiple positions. You know, it's interesting. I still feel like I don't know how Jaylen does it, man. He, like, he's got so much responsibility and they can't get Drew off him a lot. Late in games, they send up a screen, Drew fights through. So he spends time, 12, 15 seconds of shot clock trying to get Drew off him, does it. And then he's got to go at him again, right? And it's like, man, I don't know how he's able to sustain that level of performance at his size with the best guy guarding him every night, trying.
- [34:26]
B
To make multiple guys, because Boston has multiple guys, multiple. Right, you know, you, you have, you know, you got, you know, Drew Holiday who's dogging you all the way up the court, and then they, you know, you're trying to run a pick and roll now, you know, Jaylen Brown switches off onto you, and then you try to get another switch, switching Derrick White's on you, you know, now, you know, at the end of the shot clocks, you know, sometimes you have Al Horford closing out on you and you can win the foot race, but the guy's still 6:10, 6:11, right? Smart as hell.
- [34:50]
A
So, like, and you got all long wings around him that are taking up space.
- [34:53]
B
That makes it even more dynamic of why, you know, how. How it just shows how great he is.
- [35:00]
A
It's also great, great stories, right? Like him, Shane, Nicole, Jokic, like, when they came in the league, no one was thinking superstars, right?
- [35:07]
B
No, I mean, Shay wouldn't be an okc, right, if they knew this is what he was, you know, Jalen Bronson would still be in Dallas. You know, it's like those are Great stories where guys is like they believed in themselves. You know, Denver saw something in NIA for sure because at the same time, I believe Nurkic was there too.
- [35:27]
A
He was the, he was the first round pick.
- [35:28]
B
First round pick, yes. They saw something in him and obviously they were.
- [35:35]
A
Yeah, right. I mean, he's, I mean, he forced their hand, right, with his development skill. He's such a unique player. Right. But I felt like it's interesting how the way the game's changed, like, even like let's go back to like Russell Westbrook and Gilbert Arenas. Well, in college they weren't point guards, they weren't playmakers. They weren't making decisions. They were just great athletes. They were trying to find themselves. They developed into guys that could make the decision every time. Right. And I think that those are guys that maybe we don't talk about as much, but like they matriculated into that decision maker. Right. And so we're seeing that now. It's almost like that never happened in the old, old days, Right. Like, it was like, this is what you are. You play this position, you slot into these five spots. Now it's like if a guy continues to develop, he can break the first line of defense. He's creating, taking up real estate, creating opportunities. Can you now solve by scoring and passing in those situations? We're seeing so many guys become that throughout their career.
- [36:29]
B
Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's kind of off topic a little bit, but it's, it's definitely on top of what we're talking about. Like, I remember watching, you know, NBA games when I was like teenager or maybe even younger, and it was almost like seeing Sam Perkins shoot a three, right.
- [36:46]
A
It was wild.
- [36:47]
B
Was wild.
- [36:48]
A
Right.
- [36:48]
B
Seeing Manute Bowl Shooter 3 was like, what's happening? Why is he 6, 11, 7, 6 shooting threes? It's like people was looking at, like looking at the screen like, oh my God, like, what is this? You know, and just to go back to what you're saying, you know, seeing guys like Russell Westbrook and, you know, Gilbert Arenas, guys coming out of college, ucla, Arizona, Gil came off the bench, you know, you know, Darren Collison was a starting point guard at UCLA before Russ was even got an opportunity. But it, what you, when, when it, when you talk about things that cannot be denied, right. You could when they were on the court or you saw them, it was some, it was something that had. When we talk about the it factor, yeah, Gil had the it factor belief. He had the belief in himself. He had the it factor. Every Time he touched the court, you was like, oh, this guy's special. You know, this guy's special. Every time Russ stepped on the court, oh, this guy's special. We've. We've never seen anything like this. Like, it's like a. As soon as we get on the course, a missile.
- [37:50]
A
Right.
- [37:51]
B
You know, and that's just, that's a. That's the beauty of the game sometimes where you able, like those, I want to say diamond in the roughs, but I mean, you look at Gil, I think he was a second round pick, right? You know, to Golden State.
- [38:04]
A
Well, you said it like, nowadays everyone's one and done. He came off the bench right in college, right. So, like, it's just interesting how, and don't get me wrong, there was heliocentric players, you know, in different eras. Tiny Archibald.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [38:18]
A
Oscar Robertson, you know, I think then you get to Magic and Bird in different ways, but they weren't like, you know, it's just different how it's evolved. So it's like, it's just interesting. How many guys now, and is it because we know more? Is it player development? Is it so much based on personality? So many more guys are becoming these positionless players.
- [38:35]
B
Do you think, like I always think about, like, because there wasn't no social media back in, obviously the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, that we could have missed out on a lot of talent, you know, in towns that word of mouth wasn't big enough, you know, or player wasn't heard about, or nobody could, you know, get the word out. And we missed out on a Russell Westbrook, you know, that there's no question.
- [39:03]
A
You know, there's no question.
- [39:04]
B
I always think about that, Tyler.
- [39:05]
A
It's. Well, that's not just social media, but YouTube. But this technology's allowed the world to get so small, so much information. Like, you know, think about it. Like Ronnie growing up could kind of see whatever he wanted to see on his phone, right. I could see how we work out. Obviously he had access to, but, you know, he could see what everyone does hear from everyone's opinion on this person. Back in those days, you kind of learned through your high school coach, your summer coach, your AAU coach, and stories happened.
- [39:33]
B
A kid happened to get invited to like a summer camp or something.
- [39:36]
A
You see something.
- [39:36]
B
Yeah, right.
- [39:37]
A
Like, it was just different. I mean, I remember growing up, like, trying to get better, just recording college games, VHS tapes, dating myself, but like recording games and like taking stuff off. Guys who never really, you know, were great or, or taking the one legged shot off Pat Ewing.
- [39:52]
B
Right, right, right.
- [39:53]
A
People don't think about the runner, Pat Ewing, but he would roll across the lane, go off his right foot, shoot with his right. That became something I had to do because I had to put people off balance. So, you know, nowadays people see that it's everything you ever want to see on your phone. Right. You don't have to miss anything. You can see it all and you can hear about it too. Explain this to me. Someone can explain it to you. Almost too much, right?
- [40:12]
B
Almost too much.
- [40:13]
A
Almost too much. So it's, I think the NBA is like a tech industry in that respect. Like most nowadays is that information is just becoming so readily accessible. It's changing so quickly. Even the micro adjustments, you know, I think it, it's. That's one of the issues I think we have a little bit with the game is trying to explain to fans all these little micro changes that are happening, you know, within a series or within a month or a half a season, a season, two, three years. It's all changing pretty quickly, although it looks similar.
- [40:44]
B
We're listening, fans. I want you guys to know that we're listening. We hear you guys. We're listening. We always want to make sure that the game of basketball is viewed from y' all point of view and y' all love the product. Like, you know, we're always trying to figure out a way to get better, but the game is, the game changes, you know, you know, the conversation on, you know, you know, I wish the game was like this compared to like it's too far. Hard to even be thinking about those type of things. It's impossible. Everything changes.
- [41:11]
A
Yeah.
- [41:11]
B
You know, everything changes.
- [41:12]
A
Well, think about the, some of those factors in that too. Like, so, you know, when I came in the league, you had four coaches. Now you have nine or ten on every staff. Right.
- [41:21]
B
Sometimes there's more coaches on the bench than players.
- [41:22]
A
Right. Two rows, two rows. You know, now you have five guys typically in a video room, and they have to be able to play with the guys that don't play. They have to be able to cut tape. Every coach and player. Right. Then you have analytics departments, you know, some could be four or five people deep. Right. So there's so much information. Back in the day you had a trainer, a head trainer and assistant trainer. And then a strength coach got introduced. Right now your performance team could be 10 people. You know, sports scientists, physical therapists, strength and conditioning coaches, you know, everything. So everything is continually evolving. And so I think it's Inevitable. It's going to change. It's going to change quick and they're going to be sometimes really micro little changes because there are so many brains on this every day, right?
- [42:07]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the game is beautiful, man.
- [42:11]
A
It is.
- [42:12]
B
You know, and we have to just evolve with it, you know, just like how we do in everyday life. We have to evolve with life. We also have to evolve with sports, the sport that we love, whatever that sport is. And that's the. That's the beauty of being able to understand and respect and appreciate where the game come from and also be able to understand and appreciate where it is today as well.
- [42:33]
A
That's right. Well said. I love that. It, like made me think whenever you.
- [42:47]
B
Guys were talking about.
- [42:50]
A
Just how you don't have access, you didn't have access back to everything. And it's like that's what made Don Nelson so awesome, right?
- [42:58]
B
That he was willing to go.
- [42:59]
A
Yeah, right. And like no one else would go looking here.
- [43:03]
B
It's crazy.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah. Well, it also.
- [43:06]
B
Yeah, that's crazy.
- [43:08]
A
That's crazy, right?
- [43:09]
B
Yeah, that's crazy.
- [43:10]
A
There was no value in it perceived. Right. Because it's like, why would I go over there? We got the best players in the world. World here right now. We see there's players everywhere. To your point about missing out on guys, Right. I'm a big believer that there's talent everywhere. Like Bill Gates has become Bill Gates because he grew up near one of the only mainframes in the United States, apparently. Or you know, like hub of the early Internet. Right. Like, not saying he's not a brilliant guy, but he happened to live right there. Who's to say that a kid in Mississippi or Mexico City that didn't have the same. Same access couldn't have had the same power similar to basketball. Right. Like, who knows if a kid grew up playing and he just didn't have that one person who believed or he didn't have that coach that really knew the game or the family dynamic, didn't allow it. Right. There's talent everywhere. And just trying to give people an opportunity is almost as important as the talent.
- [44:00]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [44:00]
A
And then I think the other part is like, you know, I'm obviously older than you and my generation was slightly not that much different. Because you didn't have social media when you were in high school, did you?
- [44:10]
B
No.
- [44:11]
A
So, you know, thinking in that way, like, what did we do? We went out and played.
- [44:15]
B
That's it.
- [44:16]
A
So we played with. We learned through the hours, through trial and error. More so than technology?
- [44:22]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [44:23]
A
The phone, the commercialization, basketball trainers and shit like that.
- [44:27]
B
Growing up.
- [44:28]
A
Get your own rebound, get your own rebound.
- [44:30]
B
Spin the ball out, turn around, jab, do your jab steps. One dribble, shoot. One dribble, two dribble, shoot.
- [44:36]
A
Mike and drill, right? And that doesn't mean that's better. Everything's getting better. It's just a matter of finding the balance. Like, right. Like, where can we add some of the things we learned in the past back into the flow of information? But, man, that's why I like your point. I love the way you ended that with just. The game is beautiful, man. Like, I know a lot of players, my generation beyond are critical of the game. I watch these playoff games, man. I love the game. I love the game. I love the little battles, the chess matches, the randomness, but with principles, you know. To me, it's in a beautiful place.
- [45:07]
B
And I loved it growing up. I mean, shit, they just. The older generation, they make you not want to love the game that I grew up watching, right? Like, I grew up loving a Knicks vs Bulls playoff series or Pacers vs Knicks bull playoff series. Like, I love that. Like, or even, like, you know, obviously I'm from a small town outside of Cleveland, but watching the Cavs get an opportunity to play against, you know, MJ didn't never see it live, obviously, but everybody was excited about it. Seeing, you know, Charles Barkley play in Phoenix, like, take his talents to Phoenix and help them get to the finals was, like, so fucking dope.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah.
- [45:50]
B
I mean, Kevin Johnson, Dan Marley, like, you know, those guys are really good players, but they weren't like, top of the line guys and got them to the finals. And then like, the generation, they talk so much shit about the game today, and it make you go back and watch the game back then, and it makes you not even want to appreciate it no more. Like I did when I was a kid. Like, it was like, right.
- [46:13]
A
It's a great point. It's a great point. When you go back and watch now, it doesn't feel as good as it did did at the time.
- [46:19]
B
It does not.
- [46:19]
A
But it was great. It was the best on the planet.
- [46:22]
B
It was great. Or, you know, these guys here say, we can't be friends. You're friends with that. Why are you smiling on the court? And then someone goes to find a clip of, like, you standing next to this guy during the finals, smiling and laughing. It's like, can we just be honest with everyone? Just be honest. Like, I don't understand.
- [46:40]
A
Memories are fallible. Memories are not perfect.
- [46:44]
B
Yeah. If you want your movie to. You want to. They write their own script.
- [46:47]
A
Right, Right, Right, Right, Right. And you know what? Maybe we should flip it and be appreciative that. And I should. You know, I'm an old head. But that. That the old heads are.
- [46:58]
B
You're different.
- [46:59]
A
You're different.
- [46:59]
B
You don't even try. Don't even try.
- [47:01]
A
The bitter. Do not try to be competitive.
- [47:04]
B
Do not try to be the CEO and president of the old head committee. Don't do it.
- [47:09]
A
But maybe we should string you.
- [47:10]
B
They're going to string you out.
- [47:12]
A
Right?
- [47:12]
B
You're too positive. You're too appreciative.
- [47:14]
A
Maybe I am.
- [47:14]
B
Yes, you are. You're too positive or too appreciative for.
- [47:19]
A
But maybe it's also cool that they're like. That's who they are, the competitive dudes. They can't let go, and that's what made them great. And so although it can be frustrating at times and we have to put it in perspective, it's also great that that's who they are. That's how they got where they got, and they won't let go.
- [47:35]
B
It's all part of the story.
- [47:36]
A
Right? Thanks for watching Mind the game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content.