Knicks vs. Spurs: Breaking Down the 2026 NBA Finals with LeBron James and Steve Nash

Summary

Mind the Game – S3E1: Knicks vs. Spurs: Breaking Down the 2026 NBA Finals

Hosts: J.J. Redick & Isaiah Thomas
Date: June 9, 2026
Podcast by: UNINTERRUPTED | Wondery

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Episode Overview

This Season 3 premiere centers on a deep breakdown of the 2026 NBA Finals matchup between the New York Knicks and the San Antonio Spurs. Veteran minds J.J. Redick and Isaiah Thomas dissect the X’s and O’s, individual performances, and tactical chess matches defining this year’s Finals, focusing especially on Jalen Brunson’s evolution, the unique challenges of small guard-led teams, and the pivotal matchup between Karl-Anthony Towns (“Kat”) and Victor Wembanyama (“Wemby”). The hosts also reflect on recent losses in the basketball community, and offer meta-insight into their efforts to elevate basketball analysis on TV and in media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering NBA Greats and the Brotherhood of the League

Timestamps: 06:11–09:51

• The hosts begin by paying respects to recently departed basketball figures: Rick Adelman (“incredible coach and human being”), Jason Collins (first openly gay NBA player, “strength and leadership”), and Brandon Clarke (“tremendous competitor and teammate”).
• Isaiah Thomas stresses the “brotherhood” of everyone in basketball, from coaches to staff to players:

  “At the end of the day…we’re a brotherhood…you don’t take it for granted.” (07:43, Isaiah Thomas)

• J.J. Redick underscores the support families provide (“they have to share these players with the fans, airplanes, organizations…”).

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2. The Evolution of NBA Broadcasting—Player-Driven X’s and O’s

Timestamps: 01:16–05:54

• Isaiah and J.J. reflect on the broadcasting journey—wanting to “add and elevate” basketball commentary.
• Praise for Amazon Prime’s innovative, immersive court breakdowns and the value of panelists who “know the game.”
• Emphasis on making analysis accessible for both casual and advanced fans:

  “We want to highlight what the best players in the world are doing…show the fans why and what makes it so difficult to play at this level.” (03:55, J.J. Redick)

• The interactive court as a teaching tool for fans and analysts:

  “We could theoretically use the court…draw a play on an iPad and then it goes right to the court.” (05:21, J.J. Redick)

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3. Game 1 Recap: Knicks’ Surge & Brunson’s Brilliance

Timestamps: 09:51–14:15

• Isaiah admits missing Game 1 live (due to travel) but caught highlights of Brunson’s “big time shots late”—particularly his clutch 4th quarter play including a step-back over Vassell and a key corner three.
• The Knicks’ offensive rhythm and especially their defense are praised as series-changers.
• San Antonio’s struggles are spotlighted:

  “A lot of turnovers, a lot of unforced turnovers…looked like they were playing a little fast…you can’t do that versus New York.” (10:52, Isaiah Thomas)

• Knicks have not lost since early in the first round, catching fire at the right time.

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4. The Essence of “Winning Plays”: Josh Hart as the Unsung Hero

Timestamps: 12:49–15:15

• Both hosts highlight Josh Hart’s multifaceted impact (“15 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals”):

  “He’s one of those few guys that make an impact and it doesn’t have to always be scoring…it’s that competitive will.” (13:34, Isaiah Thomas)

• Comparison to Draymond Green and Rajon Rondo—players who change games with intelligence, rebounding, defensive help, hustle, and unselfish play.

  “He kind of ties the room together…he’s so smart and adept at finding ways he helps the offense.” (14:40, J.J. Redick)

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5. Small Guards Leading Titles—A Rare Feat

Timestamps: 16:34–18:20

• J.J. raises an historical query:

  “Isaiah, what other small guards have led their team to titles?” (16:34, J.J. Redick)

• Consensus: it’s exceedingly rare—Isaiah Thomas himself, with a nod to Allen Iverson’s close call in 2001, and an open question as to whether Steph Curry qualifies as a true “small point guard.”

  “With Zeke, you knew he was the one…with Steph, he’s so dynamic…” (17:34, Isaiah Thomas)

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6. Jalen Brunson’s Craft and Uniqueness

Timestamps: 18:24–21:52

• Brunson’s “will to win” is repeatedly cited as his No. 1 trait, alongside his body control, use of subtle off-timing, and unorthodox finishing.

• “He’s almost—not a floater, not a layup, not a runner, but it’s just like a shot on the move with a guy tattooing him. You can’t time it because you don’t know when he’s gone.” (19:28–19:39, both hosts)

• Redick outlines how Brunson manipulates defenses by stopping abruptly, controlling pace, and forcing defenders into errors.
• The “lefty factor” is described as a hidden, underappreciated challenge for defenses:

  “Our league is so…95% of our league’s righties…the lefties that are dynamic…give the defense a headache.” (21:05, Isaiah Thomas)

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7. Knicks’ Surrounding Cast—Why This Works

Timestamps: 21:52–23:11

• Praise for Knicks’ roster construction: versatile defenders (Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, Hart), role flexibility, and bigs like Mitchell Robinson and Kat who anchor both offense and defense.

• “They’ve done a great job surrounding him with the perfect pieces that allows him to be perfect himself.” (23:09, Isaiah Thomas)

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8. Spurs’ Game 1 Woes and Adjustments Needed

Timestamps: 25:07–32:26

• Redick: Spurs’ youth showed in “decision making, spacing…Wemby settling too often.”
• Both hosts stress the mental and physical toll taken by San Antonio’s grueling prior series; "sometimes, human nature kicks in,” (28:41) especially with young teams following an emotional win.
• On the Kat–Wemby matchup:

  “Kat likes guarding Wemby, he has the strength and foot speed…they gotta move Wemby around, get him on the baseline, the block, on the move.” (30:25, J.J. Redick)

• The importance of “getting Wemby on the move” rather than stationary on offense:

  “I can probably guess, [Kat] used his body up against him, his physicality…they gotta get Wemby off the body, use his athleticism…having guards set pin-downs, give him freedom.” (31:06–31:33, Isaiah Thomas)

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9. San Antonio’s Rotation Puzzle: Fox’s Health, Dylan Harper’s Rise

Timestamps: 34:35–38:35

• Redick notes De’Aaron Fox’s up-and-down postseason health (“he had a poor game one, but he’s an All-Star, we know what he can do…”), and hails rookie Dylan Harper’s Game 1 aggression (“nobody could contain him on the Knicks”).
• Isaiah advocates for a “hot hand” approach: “Who’s performing well? Let him get the run. When we win, we all win…not the time to babysit someone’s ego.” (36:46)
• They identify San Antonio as an almost ego-free team, where “how the coaches feel” should dictate minutes.
• Fox’s presence allows Harper and Castle to “play free” and instinctively; when Fox is out, turnovers surge and the offense “looks a little sped up.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Jalen Brunson’s Special Finishing:

  “He’s almost—not a floater, not a layup, not a runner, but it’s just like a shot on the move with a guy tattooing him. You can’t time it because you don’t know when he’s gone.”
  (19:28–19:39, J.J. Redick & Isaiah Thomas)

• On Small Guards Leading Teams to Titles:

  “Very rare to win it…Can’t think of one besides Isaiah.”
  (16:53–17:05, J.J. Redick & Isaiah Thomas)

• On the Immersive Broadcast Experience:

  “The court was super, like, immersive. Like, you felt like he was in a video game. Played by live guys, which you guys were.”
  (04:52, Isaiah Thomas)

• On Knicks’ Role Players:

  “He’s one of those guys…you can plug into any franchise, any team, and they’re going to win because those guys just make winning plays.”
  (13:48, Isaiah Thomas on Josh Hart)

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Segment Timestamps

• Intro & NBA Brotherhood Reflections — 06:11–09:51
• Broadcasting/X’s & O’s Philosophy — 01:16–05:54
• Finals Game 1 / Knicks Analysis — 09:51–15:15
• Small-Guard Leadership History — 16:34–18:20
• Jalen Brunson Dissection — 18:24–21:52
• Spurs’ Game 1 & Adjustments — 25:07–32:26
• Spurs’ Backcourt Rotation & Harper’s Emergence — 34:35–38:35

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Episode Tone

Rich, reflective, and tactical:
The hosts focus on nuance, competitive psychology, player development, and the granular details that turn games and series, eschewing hot takes and offering both “player’s eye” insight and respect for the evolving modern game. The camaraderie and mutual respect between the hosts, along with their deep love for basketball, are tangible throughout.

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For Further Listening

Listeners are encouraged to follow new episodes every other Tuesday for in-depth, intelligent basketball discourse—geared towards real students of the game.

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Note: All advertisements, sponsor reads, podcast intros, and outros have been omitted from this summary. Content reflects in-episode discussion and direct basketball analysis only.

Transcript

[J.J. Redick]

Coming up on this episode of Mind the Game. Jalen just. He's. First of all, the number one characteristic for me is his will to win. It's almost not a floater, not a layup, not a runner, but it's just like a shot.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

On the move with a guy tattooing, and it's.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You can't time it because you don't know when he's gone.

[J.J. Redick]

It's not natural.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, it's not natural. Like, he goes and then he just. He just kind of tosses it up there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So now you know. Yeah, exactly.

[J.J. Redick]

I'm fascinated by this Katt Wemby matchup. Katt likes guarding Wemby. You know, he has the strength and I think the foot speed to kind of make it difficult. Wemby. So how did they now move Wemby around? Get him on the baseline. Get him on the block. Get him to. On the move.

[Isaiah Thomas]

San Antonio. They're a team that doesn't have ego. They have their personal, you know, beliefs on what they can bring to the table. We all do. We're all competitors. But that team is egoless. It's a big time to see Josh kind of grow into, you know, the player that he's in. He always talks about Alex Caruso a lot. It's those certain guys that you can plug into to any franchise, any team, and they're gonna win because those guys just make winning plays, you know.

[J.J. Redick]

Isaiah, what other. You know, what other small guards have led their team to titles?

[Isaiah Thomas]

It's very rare. To winning it.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah,

[Isaiah Thomas]

to winning.

[J.J. Redick]

Got some. Some time away.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, some time away. I'm just getting back a little family vacation. Took the family over to. To Italy and France. We started in Monaco and then took the coast all the way down and finished in Capri. So, I mean, it was a great trip. Whole family, kids, wife. My mom had a couple kids. Have some of their friends with us. So you had a crew. Yeah, we had a crew. We had a crew. It was a good time, though. Great time. Little jet lag, but we back, man. Mind the game. We back. We are back.

[J.J. Redick]

Let's go.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Question for you, man. You know, this is one year into you doing this whole broadcasting thing. You know, how has that been? Is it everything you thought it would be? Is it? You know, kind.

[J.J. Redick]

Of.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Take us through it. Take us through it.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, it's been good. I mean, thanks to you, I got a little bit of a head start doing this. Feeling a little more comfortable on camera. The Amazon prime stuff has just been amazing. Though, you know, they really invested in it. Great team, great crew on camera, off camera. So that part of it's been like a home run.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You got some guys up there too, that's like smart. Know the game as well. Ud, Dirk, Blake, like, you guys do a great job up there. You know, Taylor, you know those y'. All. It's a pretty good cast. I mean, I don't. Me personally, I don't watch a lot of like pre game shows, post game shows. Cause just, you know me, you already know how I am about that shit. Because they don't speak about the game enough. There's not enough knowledge about the game. Breaking down the game. You know what it means as a fan to actually learn about the game or what we watching, you know, and it's been a breath of fresh air having you guys up there. You know, I think I don't know what game that was. It was maybe after game one or two in the Houston series. I actually got on to talk to you guys after that game. And I did it because I knew who I was about to be talking to, you know, so, you know, it was a breath of fresh air to get on there and talk to you guys about the game and kind of like, you know, just really speak about the nuances of why we all fell in love with the sport and why we continue to fall in love with the game. So big shout out to you guys for sure.

[J.J. Redick]

Thank you. Well, we appreciate you coming on. We hope it's not the first and last, but you know, you hit it like the. I mean, I want to give a major shout to like the people that support us. They do an incredible job. And then like you said, man, like to sit there with Dirk and Blake, UD and Taylor's like the point guard. Like, she really is such a. I mean, she's so talented at what she does. She keeps us on track for our first year. She made it seamless for us. So it's been amazing. And I think thank you for saying that about the content. Like we wanted to come in and kind of add and elevate. These are the best players in the world. We want to highlight what they're doing. We have to call them out if it's not right or they're not playing well. But the reality is they're still the best players in the world and we want to show the fans why and what makes it so difficult to play at this level. So that was fun for us to try to maybe give fans, casual fans, even fans that are deeper into the game, like, an opportunity to kind of see it from a player's perspective, coaching perspective, like, what's happening out there on a slightly deeper level. So they have a little bit of, like, either access into the game or an understanding of why they're doing what they do or what makes it so hard. Yeah, that was fun.

[Isaiah Thomas]

That was fun. I also like the court, too. The court breakdown. You have to break down plays, break down specific moves that certain guys made. You know, I thought that was pretty cool, too. The court was super, like, immersive. Like, you felt like he was in a video game.

[J.J. Redick]

Right.

[Isaiah Thomas]

For sure. You know, played by live guys, which you guys were. So I think that was a good piece that Amazon did a great job of capturing that, too. Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

And I think, like, we haven't even fully been able to, like, exploit the court.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Right, right. We're still learning, like, what sense what you mean.

[J.J. Redick]

So, like, you can play video on the court. You can put. You can have trackers where you have the players moving. You could put graphics on the court. So being interactive. So, for example, we haven't, like, been able to do it enough, but we could theoretically use the court, but draw a play on a. On an iPad, and then it goes

[Isaiah Thomas]

right to the core.

[J.J. Redick]

But getting all the dynamics of that down to where, like, it's TV ready, you know, it just takes a little bit of time.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, for sure.

[J.J. Redick]

The ability, the functionality of that thing is incredible. So hopefully we can use it as a tool to help enjoy it.

[Isaiah Thomas]

So that's awesome. Pretty cool. Well, congrats on year one. I'm looking forward to year two. Absolutely.

[J.J. Redick]

Coming up on deck.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah. Cheers to that, man. Cheers to that. Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

Nice.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Nice. Barolo. Yeah. I'm fresh from Italy. I just keep it going. Keep it going.

[J.J. Redick]

Right from Barolos to Burgundy. So we've had some really, really sad days here at the NBA recently, losing Rick Edelman, Jason Collins, Brandon Clark. You know, I'd love to hear from you. I know we've both played against Rick's teams and. Great human being and that. That elbow action offense with Pete Carrell was one of the, I think, the most beautiful teams of that era. So obviously, shouts to his family and all the incredible stuff he did in the game.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah. I mean, obviously, at the end of the day, I mean, we. We all compete against one another. I mean, there's 30 teams. We all compete for one common goal. That's to win that game, win a championship, whatever the case may be. However, you kind of break down the course of a Season, your career. But more importantly, like, we're a brotherhood. We're all a brotherhood. From, you know, the staff, the training staff, to everybody that's helping, the coaches, the players, everything. We're all, it's all a brotherhood, you know, and you know, when you lose someone in a fraternity, you know, it hits home, you know, and you know, to be in A playoff series vs. Brandon Clark A couple years back when, you know, we had a big time playoff series versus Memphis, you know, you know, with that team. To lose him, obviously, it sent a lot of shockwaves. I got a lot of teammates on the Lakers that was actually teammates with him. Marcus Smart, Jake Laravia. Rui was a college teammate of his. Luke, you know, Luke Canard was a teammate of his. So I know that kind of probably hit home even more for them. So that was, you know, very devastating. And like you said, our condolences goes out to not only bc, but also, you know, Jason Collins as well. Losing him, competed against him as well, you know, earlier in my, in my career, you know, and also, you know, just playing against, obviously, like you said, Rick Adelman. I saw my, one of my dear friends, one of my best friends, you know, the NBA is Kevin Love. And Caleb put up, put a post out, I think yesterday, the day before, about how much he meant to him, you know, and his family as well. So, you know, it's a big fraternity and to lose people like, you know, people who've meant something to our league and to be able to compete versus them or see them, have conversations with them is always something you kind of just, you don't take it for granted. And like you said, you give so much more even in depth, you know, respect and you know, words to their families, you know, because they've all lost, you know, great people.

[J.J. Redick]

Those are good words. And the brotherhood, the fraternity, you know, extends to families, right, who have to experience it because we take them on this journey in a way, they support us and they have to share these players with the fans, airplanes, organizations, teammates, you know, quickly, you know, Rick Adelman, obviously terrific X's and O's, great coach Jason Collins, first openly gay basketball player and professional athlete in North America. You know, tremendous, you know, leadership, strength and spokesperson for our community. And Brandon, you know, just too young, all of them too young. But Brandon, just everything I've ever heard about him, he was an awesome kid. So got to meet him a little bit. A kid who was born in Vancouver, you know, the west coast where I'm from, Canada. Grew up in Phoenix where I played and so all these hit home for me and yeah, thanks for those words and for the community and all the people that will miss them dearly.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, absolutely.

[J.J. Redick]

They will be.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Absolutely. They'll be missed for sure.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah. Well, let's jump to these NBA Finals at the time of recording. This is Friday of game two. Yeah, but we saw game one. Did you get a chance to watch it all?

[Isaiah Thomas]

I did not. I did not get a chance to watch. It was. It came on at 2:30 in the morning and I was knocked out. But I did wake up to see because on my way, I was on my way to the airport actually. So I was starting to make my way to the airport and I did see a lot of the Jalen Brunson big time shots late. The shot making ability that he had in that fourth quarter was. I mean, there's a reason why they're in the finals. He's the head of the snake for their team and his shot making ability. Tough shots, tough shots made. The, you know, the, the left hand lay up over top of Castle, long arm floater off the top, split the defense on the next one was able to get to the hole again. You know, I think after maybe an offensive rebound, he had the three by the San Antonio bench. Corner three, the corner three, big three, you know, while San Antonio was trying to make a run. And then obviously the kind of the dagger, the playing off two, step back, step through high, really high on Pursail. That's a tough shot and you just tip, you, you tip your hat. Obviously he's, he's an all star big time player, you know, so. Yeah, and I think the one thing that I heard about the San Antonio side, it was a lot of, a lot of turnovers, a lot of unforced turnovers, a lot of turnovers. Looked like they played a little sloppy, like they was playing a little fast is what I heard. And you can't do that versus New York. I mean, they're the hottest team that we've seen in a long time.

[J.J. Redick]

You know, I mean, what is it now, 11 games?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, 11 or 12, something like that. I think they haven't lost since what was game three of the Atlanta series.

[J.J. Redick]

Right?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

And as much as you respect the Knicks, I don't think going into the playoffs anyone. I mean a lot of people pick them in the east, but they weren't playing great. They got down 2:1 in the first round and then they run the table. No one saw that coming. So for context, it's like a different New York Knicks team.

[Isaiah Thomas]

It absolutely is, right? It absolutely is. And the best time to get hot is when the playoffs start. I mean, and they've caught a rhythm and they're showing it both. Both offense. We talk a lot about their offense, but it's the defense, too. I mean, that is showing up even. Even more for them. And, I mean, they're up 10 right now.

[J.J. Redick]

I thought that was big. The defense, I mean, clearly, you know, they made a lot of threes and made a lot of shots and found a nice rhythm. Cat being a hub off their rhythm and the feeling defensively has been great. Cat's been a better defender. They've done a much better job of not giving into switches with Jalen Brunson, you know, him showing and getting back, kind of showing a crowd, giving him time to get back. So their rhythm defensively has been outstanding. You know, they have the pieces like the. You know, Bridges and OG and Hart.

[Isaiah Thomas]

And when Cat defends, Shamon is playing well off the bench. You know, Deuce is playing well off the bench. Obviously, you know what you're gonna get out of Mitchell Robinson, giving them extra possessions and, you know, changing shots. So, you know, their team right now, everyone who's coming in, you know, you got the wild card. And Josh Hart, he's like a wild card. You can play him whenever you played with him? Yeah, I played, you know, and he's continued to get better and better. You know, I was with him when he was young. I had the Young Lake show with him and Bi and Lonzo and Caruso and all that, you know, Zubak. I had the young guys, you know, and, you know, you just see Josh Hart, you know, continue to get better. I know that'd be a hell of a team right now, for sure. Oh, my goodness. But you just see Josh Har just continue to get better and better and better. And he's one of those few guys in our league that makes an impact. And it doesn't have to always be scoring. It's the Draymond Green role where, you know, he gets you eight points, but it's 12 rebounds, it's seven assists. It's diving for loose. Some of the stuff that don't show up in the box scores, you know, it's that competitive wheel, you know, and if you disrespect him, he can obviously make shots as well. You know, that coast to coast, you know, left to right, right hand finish. So, you know, it's. It's big time to see Josh kind of grow into, you Know the player that he's in and he's one of those guys. Like you said, we always talked about Alex Caruso a lot. It's those certain guys that you can plug into any franchise, any team and they're going to win because those guys just make winning plays winners.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, winning plays winners. I think Josh, I think 15 rebounds, six assists.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Oh, that's what he had in game.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah. Oh, man, I might have it wrong. 15, 16 rebounds, four steals, six assists. But what, you know, he's a winner. Like we said. Two things that come to mind to me, Timely, timely steal, timely offensive rebounds, you know, timely assists. And that leads to him. He kind of ties the room together. You know, he understands they're going to play off me, they're going to change the matchups to try to take advantage that I'm not shoot first guy. He's now kind of getting to the place where he's figured out all the different looks when he goes into uphill dho, when he's the screener and he's got to hold the screen, get the switch and get out to the corner or not allow them just to pass guys off down the line. He's so smart and adept at kind of finding out ways that he helps the offense and not hurts the offense. That's a skill in itself.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Absolutely. And I've played with, like I said, I've played with Alex Caruso who did that. I played with a young Josh Hart who, you know, I don't think at that point he kind of knew exactly what he wanted to be, you know, or how he was going to affect the game, but just played hard as hell, you know. But also played with Rajon Rondo and competed against Rajon Rondo. And you think back to the 08 champion Celtics, you know, you think back with Rondo. Guys with teams would try to back up off of him, you know, so they could heavy stunt on pin downs from Ray or Paul or whatever the case may be. And Doe figured out a way to. If you're gonna disrespect me here, I know that once I give the ball up, you're my heavy stunt to the nail. I can cut back door and once I get the ball and now my IQ and my playmaking, playing a 4 on 3 game, there's nothing you can do about it. I see KG at the rim, I see dump down for perk. I see spray, you know, to the corner for Ray or Paul or James Posey or Eddie House or one of those guys coming off the bench. You know, so it is a. It's a tricky thing when you playing against certain guys like that. And you try it with Draymond as well, where just clog up the paint, try to make him shoot. But what happens when you're off of him? And now Steph is running around and he's dhoing to Steph. Now the guy that's going Draymond is nowhere near to be found. Steph coming off clean. So that makes those guys so unique.

[J.J. Redick]

I used to love that Rondo. I think he also used to stampede that stunt shooter Ray. Yeah, he'd get it back on the move then he's playing three on two. That was great. Let's go back to Brunson, though, for a minute. You know, Isaiah, what other. Yeah. You know, what other small guards have led their team to titles?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah. Very rare to win in it.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

To winning it.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

I can't think of one besides Isaiah.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You know, obviously, we've had guys get close. I mean, we've. You know, I think Allen Iverson, who got that team to the Finals versus the Lakers, obviously in 01, I believe that was

[J.J. Redick]

Steph.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Steph is not a small guard, though, is he?

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, I mean, he is, but he's not necessary. He's not really a point.

[Isaiah Thomas]

He's kind of a combo, I guess. Allen Iverson is a combo, too, right?

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, I would say. I mean, maybe it's. Maybe it's because Steph is just so ridiculous.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You know, I just think he's just so different. I don't give Steph the point guard nod because he's so different. Like, you know, with Zeke, you knew Zeke was the one, Dumars was the two. You know, you kind of knew that. You knew those. You know, he brought the ball up, he handled the rock. You know, you knew he was the point. He really wasn't letting too many people, other people, bring the ball up. With Steph, he's so dynamic to the

[J.J. Redick]

point where plays off the ball a lot.

[Isaiah Thomas]

He play off the ball, you know, when they was running winning championships, you know, Sean, you know, Livingston was bringing the ball up. You know, Iggy was bringing the ball up. You know, Draymond was bringing the ball up. But I guess if you had to, you know, the old school ways of saying, who's the point? Who's the two, who's the three, who's the small four? Like, then you would say Steph as well. So Zeke and Steph. But besides that.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

And Jalen Brunson is trying. Is Trying to do that as well. Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

I mean, you have to. You have to in some ways have the perfect team around a small guy. You know, especially I think nowadays, the way the game's played, where they space the floor so much offensively, for that small guy to be able to guard his yard is impossible.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah. Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

So you have to have these long McHale bridges, Josh Hart, Cat Robinson.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

Guys around him. Steph, in some ways had that. You know, Clay was a great perimeter defender. Iggy Draymond, of course, they usually had like revolving dwarf centers.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

Do things. But Jalen just. He's first of all, the number one characteristic for me is last year, his clutch player of the year. This year, I believe Shay, last year was Jaylen is his will to win. His will to win. And I would say one of the things that I love about him, you know, beyond the shot making, is he's so smart at using his body. We know he plays off two feet. We know he's got incredible touch on those drives where guys. And he's able to just float the ball in the basket. He's almost. Not a floater, not a lift, not a runner, but it's just like a shot.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

On the move with a guy tattoo.

[Isaiah Thomas]

And it's what we will say is off timing.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Or if you're guarding him.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You can't time it because you don't know when he's gone.

[J.J. Redick]

It's not natural.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, it's not natural. Like he goes and then he just. He just kind of tosses it up there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So now you know. Yeah, exactly. So now you know, I have to get it up. But like as a defender, he gets you sometimes he gets you leaning and then he boom. And he likes them over and over.

[J.J. Redick]

But what I love about Jalen, I try to teach this to young guards, is using the body and cutting guys off. And so like one of the. You know, there's variations of that. There's one using your body to get off two feet and play. There's one where you have half an advantage where you steer him away from the pocket of space so you can then go back to the pocket of space. And the last one is how he gets in front and just stops.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Just stops.

[J.J. Redick]

And what is important as a, you know, I can relate as a non NBA athletic dude, is that a small guy is what happens is by getting in front of your guy, close out, pick and roll, whatever it is, by cutting him off one, he can run you over. That's a foul. Now he's got to be more conservative. So you're setting the terms, how he plays against you. But two, as you cut him off, your big's rolling or your big's in the dunker, you're creating a big pot. You've stopped the game. Game stops. And now if that big wants to step up, you're looking right at the lob, right. If that corner guy wants to come in, you're seeing that and you say, okay, the game's going to restart when I say so. And now we play four on three, three on two, two on one. He's so good at taking those little advantages or big advantages, stopping the game, creating a space for himself and asking the defense who's going to come guard the space. Because if you do, I play him

[Isaiah Thomas]

behind and I also, I mean, and also add on to that he's a lefty, you know, which also changes it too. You know, our league is so what 90% of our league, 95% of our leagues are righties, you know, and the lefties, that's dynamic in our league, it's sometimes just hard to kind of get a cadence to that. The man who Genobis, the James Harden's, the, you know, now the Jalen Brunson, like it's a different, it's a different feel when a guy's coming at you lefty, you know, so that, that, that I think that plays a little bit into it. I don't know if anybody's ever said that, and I could be wrong, but I also could be right. I think being a lefty too, when you're that dynamic, it just gives the defense and the defender a little bit more of a headache.

[J.J. Redick]

And it gives the defense a really. Absolutely. On an individual basis or team basis. But like how do you scheme for him? Because you know, he's quite comfortable to shoot a hand in the face, three off the dribble if you give him a little gap. So that brings you all the way up. So then he creates that little advantage with the body, whether he cuts you off, whether he takes you away from the space, or whether he plays off two feet. So what do you do? Like getting in the gaps is so hard because he's so efficient at getting his slight advantage and using the straight to the hoop space instead of curving one way, spinning, he's very in like his short lane. So the gapping, it's really difficult to gap him because you have to over commit so much.

[Isaiah Thomas]

And like you said, we said in game one, they made you mentioned in game one, they made those threes so that even it puts so much pressure when, when they're at their best. You know, Mikael Bridges is, you know, knocking down shots, OG's knocking down shots, you know, Josh Harp picks, you know, knocks in a couple, you already know what Cat's ability to do. So you're, you're not gonna be too far in on him anyways because his ability to shoot the ball, you know, and Shamlin been shooting the ball like I said, Deuce been shooting the ball so JC Jordan Clarkson could come in and knock some down. So like his, like we mentioned earlier, they've done a great job of surrounding him with the perfect pieces.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

That allows him to be the perfect himself.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah. And now over to our producer Jason for a word from one of our partners.

[Jason]

Thanks to DraftKings for sponsoring the show. The final round of the basketball season is here. Two teams left, one trophy on the line. And only our partners at DraftKings have you covered every step of the way. The DraftKings sports app is now available in all 50 states and includes all markets, bringing each game straight to your fingertips wherever you are. From New York to San Antonio to la, you're in on the excitement at the speed of sports. Follow every possession, every fourth quarter swing, every clutch shot that decides a series. Sweat the whole run in real time with a seamless experience built for championship basketball. No matter where you're watching, you're always connected and in the game with one app. And DraftKings has a great offer for all new customers. Spend just $5 and get $200 in rewards when you sign up using promo Code Mind. That's right. New DraftKings customers sign up with code MIND and spend five bucks to get 200 in rewards within 21 days. DraftKings the crown is yours. Bet with DK Sportsbook gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler 1-800- Myreset New York call 877-8-HOPE and WHY or text HOPE and WHY. Connecticut call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org on behalf of Boothill Casino in Kansas. Vettext pass through May apply in Illinois 21 and over void in Ontario. Event contract trading with DraftKings predictions involves risk of loss. Sportsbook bonus bets expire in seven days. $50 in predictions. Dollars issued weekly for three weeks expire in one year. Redeem one non withdrawable reward availability varies. Predictions offer VO 28th terms at DKNG Co Audio.

[J.J. Redick]

So spurs, I think they show their youth a little bit like decision Making, spacing, Wemby, I think settling too often. You know, Wemby I also thought was way under his level. I mean, I'm sure they were. They had the, I think, really good on off numbers for Wembley defensively, but I don't think he played to his level defensively.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Absolutely. And we gotta think too, they're coming off a grueling seven game series versus defending champions. You know, and you know, the Knicks have been resting fresh and sometimes it could work both ways. You know, sometimes you go into a game seven, you play not too long after that, you got more rhythm. But I thought, I just, I felt like, you know, from what I've seen from the outside looking in or what I'm hearing is that they were, like you said, mentally that were not, you know, completely there of how they've been playing. But I mean, it goes from one game to the next game. The game is not the series is not one in one game.

[J.J. Redick]

Right.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You know, and when you got two

[J.J. Redick]

teams, even if it feels like it is.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Right, right. Yeah, right. Exactly. And that feeling that you have after a loss, you know, you know you're going to go in with a better mindset, a better focus, because now you have a sense of, if you didn't have a sense of fear versus your opponent, now you do, you know, that they can beat you, you know, and I've, you know, I've heard a lot of quotes, you know, from their team, and rightfully so, you know, they, you know, we're the best team in the world. You know, I heard some of the young guys say we're the best team in the world. That's how we feel. And I love that. Bravada, I love that, that they feel really good about that. But having someone come in and kind of punch you in the mouth, you know, on your home for it, now you kind of, you like, oh, now y' all gained my respect. So I see. I think San Antonio is gonna, it might have been one game, but they'll, they'll be the team that we all, we've seen over this, over the course of this playoff series or playoff run.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, I think they'll be better. I want to ask your opinion on this, though. I think the Knicks sitting at home, resting, going and playing on the road in game one, I think is beneficial because there's less pressure.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah.

[J.J. Redick]

You know, you, you play at home after that layoff, you can't lose at home. You know, you lose home court. So I think, in some ways, do you think psychologically it Helped the Knicks in a way that they, Maybe they were rusty, but they, they go with a more of a free swing attitude. It makes shots a little easier.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, I think they definitely went in with a more of like a free swing, you know, mentality. Like I said, I didn't get an opportunity to catch the game. But just from my knowledge of playing in the postseason, but also just watching the game, on knowing the game, I also, I don't know if anybody talked about this, but I also think that them starting on the road. Knicks fans right now are so fucking insane and crazy right now for a Finals game, that them starting off on the road and just knowing that it's keeping. The main thing. The main thing. The main thing of the main thing is the game. Let's just play the game. I can only imagine if game one started at Madison Square Garden, people asking for tickets, people want to be in there, the fans, all that.

[J.J. Redick]

City's on fire.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, the city's on fire, and it's going to be on fire for game three. We know that. But I think just them having a level of being in San Antonio, we in San Antonio, you got to, you're not. We focus on basketball. You ain't doing shit in San Antonio. Nothing at all. Nothing. And I mean nothing.

[J.J. Redick]

You know, not getting on the riverwalk, man, hell no.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You getting on the riverwalk around and fall in the water. You with that.

[J.J. Redick]

But I, I, it was, it was, I think it was a perfect setup for them too. Cuz, like, even though San Antonio is a great crowd, you could hear Knicks fans, you can hear them on the tv. So they had support, but it wasn't overwhelming. They're on the road, kind of that free swing. They got two chances to get one. They got one. Lot of pressure on San Antonio.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Oh, absolutely. A lot of pressure. A lot of pressure on San Antonio. But I think they're going to be up for it. You know, you, you. I just think they had their guards extremely up versus OKC because they knew they play OKC throughout the whole year. They played them four times in a regular season. They know, okay, this is defending champions. They know we can't really afford to not be as locked in as possible. Sometimes human nature kicks in, especially with a young team. You come off a young team beating the defending champions. And even though it's the finals, a little human nature might have kicked in. Like, we got past San Antonio. I mean, we got past okc. We, we gonna. We. All right.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah.

[Isaiah Thomas]

We ain't gotta play as hard or we Ain't got to be as focused,

[J.J. Redick]

Feeling good about themselves.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Feeling good about themselves. And I think they just got punched in the mouth. They opened the door and there was no conversation, no, no talking. They got straight to it. I think is going to help them going into the rest of the series.

[J.J. Redick]

They get their edge back.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, I think so.

[J.J. Redick]

I'm fascinated by this Kat Wemby matchup. You know, it's a slightly different look with Kat shooting. You know, Wemby I just thought was so prohibitive against Shea and OkC. You know, they have all these perimeter defenders, and Wemby was looming, and Shai had to just take incredibly difficult shots. So with Kat out there, though, it feels like Wemby was a little impressive between in game one. Like, he didn't lock down the paint. It'll be interesting to see if he adjusts, and he's like, I, I, I'll get back out. But I'm going to say, first and foremost, we're locking down the paint. So I'm interested to see how he adjusts in these next few games and then how Cat does. Because Kat likes guarding Wemby, you know, he has the strength and I think the foot speed to kind of make it difficult for Wemby. So how did they now move Wemby around, get him on the baseline, get him on the block, get him to on the move, around the elbows coming down here?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, I think so. I think with. They got to get back to that a little bit, you know, get back to him being in the corners, them setting pin downs for him, getting him on the move, getting a body off of him. Cat is probably, like I said, I didn't see game one, but I can probably guess. He's probably used his body up against him, his physicality, which you can do a lot in the postseason, especially in the finals. They're not going to let the flails too much happen or calls going to be happening. So, you know, if, you know, I think obviously they got a great coaching staff down there in San Antonio, but I could see them just trying to get him on the move a little bit more, using his athleticism, using his ability to, you know, either come off, catch and shoot or come off and just get downhill. Having a lot of the guards be the ones who setting those pin downs or those, you know, if he's high on the, on the elbow, you know, setting. Having the guard set it. So, you know, there's not many switches. You don't want to do it with OG's guy, you don't really want to do it with Bridges Guy want to kind of stay away from that. But there's other guys that may be on the floor where you can run. This guy, you know, Deuce McBride's guy, you know, Shamma's guy, when he comes in, just to get a body off of him so he can have a little bit of freedom.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, I think that's a great point because I think from a standstill off the catch or off the dribble at the top, you know, that's easy to stay connected with Wemby, you know, although he's obviously prodigious in the length, but for him to get that momentum to win that first bump, to spin, very difficult against Cat because Cat's strong enough and can move his feet well enough. And they also did a great job gapping his spin, staying in his lap, making him putting doubt in his mind where he's like, should I get off it or should I make a move? At some point, he's like, I gotta create an advantage. But he's making an advantage. Cat doing a good job. Guys in the lap that can still recover. So I think that's gonna be a really, really interesting component, is how they continue to adjust with one another.

[Isaiah Thomas]

I think he will. I think he will. And I mean, he's super young still. And obviously we talked a few of our episodes ago about his development, but the best teacher in life is experience, you know, and so we want to see how it continues to adjust as the series goes on.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, for sure.

[Host/Announcer]

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[J.J. Redick]

Com. I also think that the Fox situation, like how healthy is he? Is he, you know, he had a poor game one, but he's an all star. You know, we know what he can do, what he brings to this team, the calmness he can bring to this team, but he's got to play to a level. Conversely. Dylan Harper was amazing in game one. I mean, he got to it in ISO situations. You know, defensively, he makes plays, he gets timely rebounds, he scores at all three levels. It was just so aggressive. It felt like nobody could contain him on the Knicks. So how is Fox's health?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Right.

[J.J. Redick]

How do they share those minutes? Does it shift a little bit more to Harper?

[Isaiah Thomas]

Do they ever play those guys together?

[J.J. Redick]

They will play those two together or they'll play Castle and one of them together. But they almost never play the three of them together. Castle, Fox, which is something, he may push that button. But you know, I think that this is a, this is the beauty of San Antonio. They have these three guys that can go get it themselves or make plays for one another.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's simple. I mean, listen, this is, this is the last of the Mohicans for the, for the season. And this is not any time to feel like, okay, if I don't play this guy, we may lose him for the rest of the season. Well, this is the season. But I do think, you know, de' Aaron Fox is a huge piece to their puzzle. They brought him in for a reason. You know, we talked about Jalen Brunson being clutch player of the year. I think Fox was maybe two years ago, you know, he was clutch player of the year and we know what he can do in late games. His speed, dynamic when he's healthy, his shot making ability when he's healthy. He's Able to break down defenses in 94ft or in, you know, So I think it's a gauge on how the game is going. You know, if you see. I mean, they've been around Fox enough to know that, you know, is he close to healthy or not? Is he in a rhythm or not? And they know what they're going to get out of the rook and Dylan. So I think it's just a feel, you know, and not feeling one way towards the.

[J.J. Redick]

Let it play out.

[Isaiah Thomas]

Yeah, let it play out. Who's performing well? If this guy's performing well, you know, let him get the run. I mean, at the end of the day, when we win, we all win, you know, and it's not. There's not no time to be, you know, trying to babysit or, you know, I know that's a big word, but like, babysitting someone's ego or whatever. I don't think San Antonio, they're a team that doesn't have ego. They have their personal, you know, beliefs on what they can bring to the table. We all do. We're all competitors. But that team is egoless, you know, and, you know, but I just think it's a feel. It's how the coaches feel. That's it.

[J.J. Redick]

Especially because Fox, since the injury, has had some amazing games or moments. It's not like he's been poor. So I think there's still an opportunity for him to play well. Even if he's neutral. You can see the benefit he brings that team. The calm, the poise, the tempo, which allows Harper just the freedom to go get it allows Castle, like, extra opportunities to just be super aggressive instead of feeling like I have a responsibility to control the game. So even if he just plays neutral, not below his level, he's a big part of this. But you just got to let it play out.

[Isaiah Thomas]

You got to let it play out. And like you said, the. The part of Dylan and Stefan being able to just go out and play free is the benefit of Fox being in the lineup. You know, we kind of saw an OKC series at times when de' Aaron didn't play, the level of turnovers and how their offense kind of looked a little sped up, you know, but with de', Aaron, who's a natural, natural floor general point guard, who can get the guys, you know, where they need to be in a sense of calmness, it allows those two guys to just be themselves. Just go out and attack, attack, attack. Don't worry about, oh, okay. Oh, shit. I gotta make this read. I gotta make this read. No, you guys just be instinctive. Let everybody else kind of get around that.

[J.J. Redick]

Yeah, I agree with that, 100%. Thanks for watching Mind the Game.

[Host/Announcer]

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