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- [00:02]
Steve
What's up, Steve?
- [00:05]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
What's up, baby?
- [00:06]
Steve
What's going on? How's summer going, man? How's the fam?
- [00:09]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, man. My youngest son just graduated last week. So how was it? You know, I embarrassed him when he came off the stage. I loved it. Spent a lot of time with my youngest daughter. She playing volleyball. Summer volleyball.
- [00:20]
Steve
She had any tournaments recently?
- [00:22]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
They just played a tournament last weekend down in Anaheim.
- [00:25]
Steve
So you see any other NBA players down there?
- [00:27]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
No, I haven't. Nope, I haven't seen any yet.
- [00:29]
Steve
I used to see a few. Timmy Duncan with his hat, yank down real low. Mind the game.
- [00:51]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Mind again. We back, baby. Let's do it.
- [00:54]
Steve
Great to be back.
- [00:55]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yes, sir.
- [00:56]
Steve
I was thinking, you tweeted the other day about Halle, posted about Halle about. Well, he's playing the overrated stuff. Maybe we can start there, like, please.
- [01:08]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Let'S, let's absolutely start there.
- [01:10]
Steve
Love to hear, you know, first maybe before we even get into what he's doing, how he's playing, and breaking him down a little bit. Like, you spent part of the summer with him, a good chunk of the summer with him at the Olympics. He didn't play much, but I'm sure he soaked up a lot of incredible insight. Like, what was your takeaways from the time you spent with him this summer?
- [01:28]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Just a great person, man, Great kid. I mean, you know, didn't matter if he was playing or if he got the opportunity. He was the same guy every single day, you know, and you could see that his, his, his, his mainframe was, was soaking in all the, the knowledge and the details, you know, you know, being around all of us, you know, and he was just super appreciative every single day. Never changed his mood. When we had practices and we were doing five on five and maybe, you know, the practice where some of the older guys didn't, didn't go that day, he was ready to go. You know, if it was a moment in the game where he was called, he was ready to go. But just a great kid. Like every single day, you know, was the same person, joking, laughing, high spirited. You know, someone that you now, you know, you can you look at what's going on with the Pacers throughout the regular season and now throughout the post season, you get it. You get why they are the team they are. And it's, it starts with the head of the snake. We know that. And that's what Halle. I mean, you know, you, you can gravitate and bring energy and love and would run through a wall for Certain guys. And he's a guy that you would do that for just because of how, how he plays the game, how he, you know, how, you know, I've seen, you know, a couple guys was like, you know, well, you know, they're going into a hostile environment. You know, you shouldn't have a smile on his face. I'm like, this is who he is. Like, why are we always trying to change people? Because of this is what you say, you know, the narratives. Or this guy should look like this or this guy should like everyone's preparation is different. Everybody is different. But Halle is one of the ones, you know. And you know, the success is not happening just because it just came out the blue. It's happening because of Halle and that team. They're built perfectly for that group.
- [03:15]
Steve
Right? Yeah, they've built an incredible identity. But it's interesting to hear you say like how kind of like upbeat he is, how positive he is. Right? Like that is infectious as you know, like coming in every day we play in the league. Like they're probably game almost 100 right now, right, including the preseason. So like that infectious kind of positivity coming from your leader, the head of the Snake, like that, that, that results in more possession, you know, better possessions, wins, losses, good practice days instead of bad now, you know, not everyone's the same. So but for that team, an upbeat up tempo team, a team that doesn't necessarily have that, hey, we're going to this to create, we're going to spread the floor. You know, he's the head of the Snake, clearly. But that upbeat, positive attitude, the other thing that goes with it, for me that's I think cool and fascinating about his personality is like not afraid to talk that, you know what I mean? Like he has the confidence, you know, for a guy especially guy that's not a physical player, he has that confidence to like throw this out there, throw this out there, like, you know, like talk. And so I wonder if that's infectious for his. Did you notice that in the summer too is his, his love for just talking?
- [04:31]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Absolutely. Oh, for sure, absolutely. Like, like we would, we would play a free throw game after every practice, you know, it'd be me, him, ant, another, another talker, you know, and in ad and we would just like, you know, try to talk shit to one another, try to get somebody off their line. You know, we would play the free throw swish game. If you swish, you get a minus. You know, if you, if you just make it okay, you stay, you get one so we trying to, you know, well, I'm sorry. If you switch, you get two points. If you make it, you just get one point. If you miss, then you get a minus, you know. And we would go to a certain number, sometimes we would go to seven, sometimes we go to 11. And we were always just messing with each other, like, and you know, and we'd just be talking shit throughout the whole free throw game. So, you know, Halle was a part of that group.
- [05:14]
Steve
That's great. Well, switching to his play, you know, like, I think sometimes, like, it's interesting to kind of categorize him. Is he a superstar? Is he a star? Like, what is he? But like right now he is playing elite basketball. What are the components of that? Like, for me, he's an initiator for his team. Like, he can ISO. We've seen him ISO. We've seen him make big plays. He's extremely clutch. But what I love about his game is that he doesn't. And the Pacers have done a great job with their identity. They don't just try to get the matchup and go one on one. Like he, he. There's much more to it than that. Like one, I love that he throws the ball ahead. A little bit of a lost start in our game, like throwing it ahead, you know, to explain it to the fans. Like anytime you throw it in the head in the NBA, you know, NBA players, you know, some are better in isolation, but what most NBA players can do is attack a closeout. So if you think about throwing the ball ahead, you've got one or two guys going one on one or two on two in an entire half court. That creates high yield opportunities. So his willingness and their penchant for throwing it ahead, first of all, I think is important. Do you see that when he plays, his willingness is kind of unique to be able to throw ahead?
- [06:22]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Absolutely. And like you just said, like you got to understand, like in the postseason, guys are picking up in the front, in the back court, 94ft. You know, a guy like Halle, they try to wear him down. You know, guys like Ant, they try to wear you down. Guys like Shay, they try to pick you up full court. So what Halle was great about what Halle does. So if, you know, if the New York Knicks have scored or whatever the case may be, say Carl Anthony Town scores, you know, on Miles Turner, Miles Turner gets it out right away and they're picking up just to kick ahead into the front court. Now it's so much space because you're going to have four Guys in the back court, you're going to have Carl Anthony Towns, Miles Turner or Pascal and or. And then you're going to have someone picking up Halle in the backcourt. So when he throws it ahead to Nemhar, to Naismith, to Obi, Toppin to those guys, they have so much room to either see if they got an early fast, it's a fast break point. That is a fast break. That's fast break point. If they have an early attack, they can go at it right now because there's literally only six guys in the front court right now. It's hard to score in a half court in the postseason. You get to grab more, you get to hold, you know, things of that nature. So his kick aheads has given them the advantage. And we've seen it, you know, time after time after time in this series when the Knicks have scored, you know, Jalen Brunson gets into the lane, shoots his patent fade away, you know, you know, Carl Anthony Towns gets to the lane and able to make a layup or whatever the case may be, they're getting that ball out so fast that the Knicks have no chance of even setting their defense. And you see Pascal land the ball up on the other end, you know, 20 seconds on the shot clock, like, just like that, or getting fouled. So you know that ability. And that's infectious. That's infectious basketball. When your star player is willing to give the ball up and get it out of his hands and trust you to make a play that everyone wants to play like that. Guys want to play for that player. And then, you know, what if we don't have anything, bring it back out. And now, now here comes the ghost screens. They pitch it to hallelujah. Okay, touch screen, little touch flare out, slip out, you know, you know, now Halle's getting downhill, the ball gets to spraying and you know, and here comes the, you know, you get into the blender and once the blender start now, you know, you have guys like you said, most NBA guys play against the closeout. You know, we don't have a lot of ISO guys that can get you a bucket in one on one. Nor do we want guys, certain guys playing one on one basketball. But we all know that when guys can get into a closeout game, that can make the team that much better. And that's what Indiana is doing right now.
- [08:50]
Steve
Absolutely. I think one of the things that is to me is so valuable about their principles of the way they play. Like they change ends quickly. Obviously they want to play fast they get out. But why did they do that? You know, again, I think you're spot on. Like, when you have a leader, a lead guard that throws it ahead or a playmaker that throws it ahead. Guys want to run, right? Because they get opportunities to do stuff, to get the ball to attack when there's nothing. Four guys in the paint, right? So one that promotes running. So now they're already like, hey, we want to play fast. We want to get out early, we want to change ends quickly. And then he's throwing it ahead. So it makes them even more motivated to do that. But I think what their ability to change ends quickly does to the defense is they create a lot of cross matches. Okay?
- [09:34]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [09:36]
Steve
You know, it might be Siakam's out ahead. He doesn't get it, but. But he's got Jalen Brunson on him. And then they can throw it ahead, throw it in the post, and you got a problem. You got, you know, Karl Anthony Towns on the ball, perhaps the ball goes into the post. They got Brunson in the post. So not only are they creating cross matches, they can go into the post, but they've also, like you said, if they throw it ahead, they drive against a broken defense, even if they don't get anything. Like you said, they're in blender with cross matches.
- [10:05]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Cross matches.
- [10:06]
Steve
So now the Knicks not only are trying to catch up, but they're trying to get organized as far as where's the danger? Where's the matchup? So I love that they are constantly forcing cross matches, whether that's for attacks at the top or attacks in the post. You know, Turner, too, like, he's good at burying his guy in the lane. So if he runs absolutely right, he has no problem just sealing a guard or a wing in the middle of lane, which, again, causes a lot of attention, allows someone to maybe drive and kick, play two on one on the weak side. So I don't know if you've noticed that, but for me, that's a huge principle of what they do, is that they start the possessions with the DAX decked in their favor because they create cross matches.
- [10:43]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Absolutely. Like, I mean, you said it perfectly. You said it perfectly because sometimes they do a lot of switching, too. You know, the only main guy I see that has kept his matchup has been niece Smith. You know, when niece Smith has been on the floor, he's kept his matchup. He's getting over screens. He's trying to get under screens to beat Jalen Brunson before Stopping his drive, whatever the case may be. But some of the other times they're switching a lot, you know, or if Halliburton is guarding to pick a role, he tried to get out and show quick to get back to his man. But other than that, like, like you just said, you know, if, if, if Miles happened to, to get cross matched, you know, on Mikhail Bridges and a three girls goes up, you know, obviously the shooter can't shoot and be the first one to get back.
- [11:21]
Steve
Right?
- [11:22]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
So if Miles is contestant at the three point line above the break and he's running out now is. It's Jalen Brunson, you know, that's back there. You know, it's, it's one of the maybe smaller guys, so he's sealing them and it's going to cause a chain reaction. Either he's going to get a foul, he's going to get a layup, or, or now you're going to have multiple guys trying to either kick Jalen Brunson out or double. And that's when their blenders start, you know, and you got caught, you got Karl Anthony Towns trying to close out on some of these guys on the perimeter where he's not as, you know, as great as we would be, obviously below the, below the free throw line, you know. So that's, that's, that's working in their favor, man, that, that Blender game, once that starts, because Indiana is not putting nobody on the floor that cannot catch, shoot or drive. And the only person right now has been the big kid Bradley that they've given some minutes as of late. Other than that, they come off, they come off the bench with, with McConnell, with Matheran, with Obi toppin. Those guys a shepherd. Those guys come in and they're ready to catch, drive, pass. Yeah, catch, drive, pass, come up to pick a roll, slip ghost, get out, catch, drive, pass, Blender game. That, that's, that's all, that's all for 48 minutes.
- [12:31]
Steve
It really feels to me like they've empowered all these guys. It's almost like maybe the most equal opportunity offense and if you look at the names, like not disrespect at all, but there's other teams with kind of big twos, big threes, you know, a fourth guy that's really good that doesn't give as much responsibility to these guys. So there's this kind of equal opportunity nature of the way they play. So we talk about fans, media, talking about how the game's become homogenized. It's pick on you Know, you look at some of these teams, and Indiana being the one I want to highlight today, but Golden State, the Nuggets, you know, even Miami a little bit, they'll play a slightly different style, whether it's pinch post, whether it's split actions, whether it's Jokic in all the different areas, he can cause attention. Indiana does an amazing job of playing a different way. And for the common fan like to really check out how they play, how equal opportunity, how they always press the defense to try to get downhill, to force a rotation, to throw it out. Halle doesn't, like, take the pick and roll, force a switch, back it out. So get to your spots. He says, I'm just going to go quick. I'm going to try to create an advantage, play on the weak side.
- [13:43]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah.
- [13:44]
Steve
That's also what I think helps this team. They're unique in that way. Right. A lot of teams know, okay, like Boston, New York, we know they're going to force a switch. They're going to get to their spacing, they're going to isolate. Right. And stay controlled in that way. This team doesn't do that nearly as much as they could or would in relation to all the other teams in the league.
- [14:01]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah. And the one thing that I think sometimes happen with when you play the Pacers, you know, when Halle comes out the game, you know, you think it's a time to. Halle's come out and TJ McConnell comes in and he doesn't look apart. He doesn't look. He's not super athletic, can't really shoot the three, you know, and you think it's a time to relax. Anytime any of my teams have played against Indiana over the last couple years, that's even more heightened awareness because TJ Changes the game as well.
- [14:32]
Steve
He does.
- [14:33]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
TJ Comes in with mad pressure on the offense constantly. He gets into his Nash dribble. He's circling around, and if you're not accounting for him, then the minutes that you thought you were winning, you could win with Halle on the bench. You end up losing those minutes. Eight, two, seven, four, you know, nine, three. And those are huge minutes, you know. So, like, you have to. If you are the opposing team, there's no time. And Rick Carlisle and our good friend Lloyd Pierce.
- [15:05]
Steve
Shout out to Lloyd Pierce.
- [15:06]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, shout out Lloyd Pierce, our good buddy over there. They're not allowing New York to take a breath.
- [15:11]
Steve
Right. You have, you know, TJ kind of ramps it up, right?
- [15:17]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Exactly.
- [15:18]
Steve
He comes in the game, his pace goes up, he picks up full court.
- [15:20]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Comes Up, Yeah, Pace comes up, you know, Obi Toppin comes in, pace comes up. Like those guys are keeping that pace. Like, you know, and listen, they're saying, listen, you want to take a breath. You get a halftime and you get after the game, right? That's the only time we're going to allow you to take a breath. And they're just putting constant pressure on you. And that comes from buying in from day one. Okay. You know, Rick Carlisle and their coaching staff looked at his roster and obviously that was a huge trade, trading for Pascal, I believe, last year. But they knew, okay, this is our roster and this is how we need to play in order for us to be successful. And we also know that most guys in the NBA, they don't want to defend a second and third action. They will play the first action, maybe even the second. But the third, you get them to a third and fourth action where you're driving and kicking. And that ball always moves faster than the body. That ball, there's nobody faster than the ball, you know.
- [16:21]
Steve
Yeah, they, they, they don't really have any ball stoppers. Like they're always looking for the next action. And as you know, that's, that's a habit. You have to build that habit.
- [16:30]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
You have to build that.
- [16:30]
Steve
You have to build that. So like they draw and kick and they got nothing. It's a great closeout. They don't wait, they don't say, hey, what are we doing? They're straight up into a DHO guard to guard. DHO slip. Next guy's cutting, you know, when his man turns his head. So I think they, they're unique in that way.
- [16:46]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Foreign.
- [16:52]
Steve
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- [19:05]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Do I need to help you? Right. Should I help here? Should I switch here? Should I say square? Do it right, you know?
- [19:09]
Steve
You know, and so they create this confusion, which gets people on their heels. Now Halle's turned the corner. And then you got some. Just different things. They play guard to guard pitch, which is very rare. Right.
- [19:20]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Usually it's.
- [19:21]
Steve
It's guard to big. They. They flare high. They might be running an action on this side and always flare the help. The cutting also moves the help. So, for example, if we run a dragon, Neesmith runs that blur while the drag is going on, the help's moving. So they've moved the help from. He's gone from strong to weak. Or the guy comes off the pick and roll and rejects it.
- [19:40]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
So guy doesn't know if he's low man or not. He doesn't know if he's the tag guy. If he's the low man, should he be helping? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
- [19:46]
Steve
Or they might run a 21 action, a pistol action on one side, and someone's flaring on the opposite elbow. So when the. When someone dives out of that action, the help on the weak side is changing a little bit. Having played them, you know, you guys played them six weeks ago. I think, like, a little bit of, like, what that's like that. Just chaos out there. Foul line extended. When most teams want to keep that area spaced.
- [20:09]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, it's like you just said. You just used the perfect word. It is controlled, constant chaos. You know, and if you're not like, head on the swivel at all times, but also communicating and talking, that is the number one thing versus a team like Indiana versus OKC versus the old spurs teams, like, you know, there is constant movement. You know, you have to have your head on the swivel. And I learned that when I played football back in the day, because you get hit with a crack back, and it's over for you. And that's the Pacers, like you just said, they could be running a 21 action, you know, in a fast break, full pace, throw it ahead, you know, pitch back. And, you know, Turner comes set a flare screen for that guy. But on the complete opposite side, they could be setting a hammer screen. So it changes the low man. You know, you like, you know, rip screen, rip screen. But then if your guy sets the rip screen and then he slips to the rim, you're like, oh, my God, am I taking the guy hammer to the corner or am I staying with the rip? You have to be on point at all times, and the communication has to start way before the ball even crosses half court. You have to have. You have to have ultimate communicators out there. And guys, that's. That's. You know, there was a. There was a point in the season, you know. You know, this year when we were playing, I believe it was the Minnesota series in the first round. And, you know, guys were coming to the bench and, you know, it was a heated moment, I believe. And guys was like, we gotta. We gotta talk. Like, we're not talking. And I was like, absolutely. That we're not talking. But you know what else that we gotta do? We gotta listen.
- [21:43]
Steve
Yeah, right. There's two sides of that coin.
- [21:45]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
There's two sides of it. Like, I could be talking and be calling out the. Calling out the play. Hey, here come. Here come the flare screen. Here come the back screen. You know, here comes the rip. But if your ears aren't open or you're not. Your head is not on the swivel, you're not gonna react.
- [21:57]
Steve
Yeah.
- [21:58]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
So, yes, you know, There's a, you know, there's a huge layer. We understand that 90% of basketball, when it comes to being above and things of that nature and being before the play happen, is communication. But guys have to, they have to have their head on the swivel and they have to listen. They have to listen.
- [22:13]
Steve
Yeah. It's like a difference between talking and communicating.
- [22:15]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Right, right, exactly. Exactly.
- [22:17]
Steve
Yeah. You know what else I think is fascinating for me is, you know, once we do get the matchup we want in our league, like, we try to get so spaced, like if they run a drag and they got Halliburton on towns, you know, they'll bring another guy in and it might even be a good defender just to keep causing chaos. So in a sense, what they value more than the rest of the league is instead of valuing that matchup and the spacing, they value, the confusion, they value the next action they value. Okay, we like the Halliburton matchup, but say, you know, he brings OG into the action and he throws a knee Smith and he closes out now on Cat and he's driving and they get to the other side. So it's that relentless pressure they're putting on the defense. We know they get out and get transition opportunities, but their pace to me is more about their half court pace than their full court pace. You know, they are relentless at trying to get in the cracks, create confusion, get downhill, create closeouts, create two on ones. I don't know of another team that would bring a good defender into a matchup, but it's because they value.
- [23:16]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
They value that. They value that. And it's funny, our good friend Pat McAfee was listening to his show earlier before we jumped on, and he says, isn't it ironic that their name is the Pacers?
- [23:26]
Steve
Right?
- [23:27]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
You know, it's very ironic that their name is the Pacers because it's constant pace, constant pressure, like they're not stopping. And just like you said that, you know, them having, you know, Halle, they know, yes, okay, that's a good matchup. Halle on Carl, Anthony Towns, Cat. That's a good matchup. But what's a better matchup is seeing if Cat can navigate a pick and roll with him guarding the ball.
- [23:49]
Steve
Right, right.
- [23:50]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
He. That's not his primary. That's not what he do, you know, that is a. That is a shark out of the water. That's a fish out of the water. Not saying that he can't, but that's not what he's accustomed to doing, you know, so you Know, they know be creating that chaos, creating that indecision, creating that one split. You know, we saw that in game. What was that? That was game two, the game two of the Knicks series. When Neesmith started hitting all those threes late in the game, they were still running their same stuff, pace, pace, pace. And it was a little confusion on the Knicks side, and they couldn't catch up to what they were doing. And that's all they're trying to create.
- [24:29]
Steve
You know what else I think is an interesting topic and beautiful for me is, like, when I played for Mike d' Antoni, you know, when I first came to Phoenix, he watched us play pickup basketball, and he was like, there's something here. I don't need to over. You know, I just need to organize this and encourage it. And then he tweaks. Then he says, hey, we want to be deep, deep corner. Hey, we want to screen on the bottom side, try to. For the guy to go over. Steve gets down the lane, puts pressure on the big. Whatever he's made. I mean, Mike's brilliant and he made a bunch of tweaks, but he kind of was like, the players are inventing things as we go here. So I've seen this with good defensive teams. Oklahoma City, I feel like Nick Nurse's Raptors team was like this, where, yeah, of course there's principles, but a lot of it is the player's ability to read and react. And when I watch this Pacers team, there's a couple things that stand out. Little many things. But like Turner, you know, he can roll and catch a lob, he can pop and shoot, but sometimes he short rolls. So the big gets on his heels, and then he pops back out to three. Like, that's so unique, right?
- [25:33]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
I'm sure.
- [25:34]
Steve
I doubt Rick was like, hey, why don't you short roll, then pop back out three. He just saw he did it and was like, hold on. Like, keep doing that. So I always think it's fascinating, the ingenuity of letting guys kind of be themselves, play off each other. You also see it in their cutting. You know, guy drives, guy turns his head cuts. Guy fills of that kind of. You know, they'll do the corner cut and the drift, but they'll also just. Guy turns that cut. The guy doesn't stand behind him. He goes and replaces. Now, so as that guy cuts behind his man, the guy in the corner, his man is attentive to the cut.
- [26:04]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Now he's stood there, he's relocated, relocate.
- [26:07]
Steve
So now that's two defenders are Going, who do I got?
- [26:10]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Right. Right.
- [26:11]
Steve
So I think some of that is principles, but some of that is them saying, hey, I. I know that's not unconventional. I know it's uncomfortable to short roll and then pop or whatever it may be. But as long as we're relocating, we're getting to spots. As long as we cut and replace, you guys will find a rhythm. And that's where you're, like. You're saying this chaos that's causing all sorts of advantages.
- [26:31]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, yeah. Yep. And they know. And like you said, they know it works. You know, and Rick could have did the same thing Mike did. He could have seen those guys, the way they were playing in the summertime and was like, we have something here. Yes, I'm gonna organize the chaos and give it a little structure, but I'm not gonna change the dynamics of it too much, because this is who we are, and this is how I know we could be successful.
- [26:51]
Steve
I always find that balance. Right. Like we're watching a game and, you know, the coaches are coaching. You know, there's principles, action, or just principled chaos. Because our. You know, let's not forget, a big word for the Pacers is random. So to the casual fan, random doesn't mean a bad thing. Random means difficult to scout.
- [27:09]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, Right.
- [27:10]
Steve
They're gonna go to the next action. They're gonna play quick. They're gonna cut when you don't think they're gonna cut. He's gonna half roll and pop, but he's gonna get to the next side. They're gonna put the five on the ball. They're gonn.
- [27:20]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah.
- [27:21]
Steve
They receive the pick and roll. Someone slips. Who's got them, someone replaces. There's that randomness. And so for the casual fan, understanding like the coaches can implement, especially in today's day, you don't want to be so obvious or predictable that they can scout, take everything else. That's why, as we've talked about previously, we don't run a lot of sets anymore, because people just switch it all and you're left with the same thing. Looking at a zone ISO opportunity and trying to get to your spacing. But I always think it's fascinating to find. Where's the line between what the players have been encouraged to do by the coach through principles, but also through their own personalities, through the dynamic, how they work, and then what they come up with on their own that the coaches help shape?
- [28:00]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, I think that's built on the trust of the players. I mean, I think we all know that the more and more that you are able to instill trust into your coaches, they will give you a little bit more of the strength, you know. And I heard a quote in one of the games in the Eastern Conference finals, and I think Hallie took a step back like a 30 foot and they asked Rick Carlisle after the game, like, how did you feel about Halle shot him taking that shot? He says he's earned the right to take any shot he wants to take, you know, and that right there, let me know that. Okay. The ball is in that guy's hands and the head coach and the head player is like this. They're in unison. They know what they want to do. And he's instilling that on the floor. He's the coach on the sideline, he coaches those guys. But Halle is the coach on the floor. You know that right there. Let me know that this is random basketball, but it's random because the synergy between the head coach and Halle is like this. And then the rest of the guys just all built together to that. That let me know right then and there what I was watching and why they're being successful.
- [29:10]
Steve
That's a great point. Yeah. He's built that trust, earned that trust. He's the initiator, decision maker. He's the coach on the floor. Absolutely. It gives the team a lot of belie, belief and freedom to go out there and be okay to make mistakes.
- [29:21]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Absolutely. I mean, the kid had 32, 15, 12 and 0 turnovers last game.
- [29:26]
Steve
0.
- [29:27]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
0. You can't give more trust to a head coach after a performance like that. You know, he.
- [29:32]
Steve
And they. They really do take care of the ball. I think some people would say, you know, how do they do that when they play so fast? And that it. That is a testament to them. But sometimes when you play fast, it actually becomes easier to not turn it over because you're not.
- [29:47]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Because you're not thinking. You're not holding the ball and you're not thinking as much.
- [29:50]
Steve
Yeah. You're not like, which decision should. I'm just. I'm getting rid of it. I'm getting rid of it. I'm getting rid of the next guy who's getting rid of it. You know, next action.
- [29:58]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah. You said like, if I don't have a shot, get off of it. You have a quick drive. Okay. Someone steps over, get off of it. You know, these are quick twitch, quick twitch. The ball moves, the body moves. And they, They've to this point so far in the postseason, they've mastered this. This is a Team that's really well constructed, well put together and well coached.
- [30:20]
Steve
Absolutely. Amen. We're taping this. The Pacers are up 3:1 on the Knicks going back to Madison Square Garden tonight. This episode should come back, come out next week when both OkC's already won. They're going to the finals.
- [30:36]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Congratulations. OkC.
- [30:37]
Steve
Yes, big time. But, but the Pacers still got to close this out. What do the Knicks have to do in your mind if they got any chance of climb back into this?
- [30:46]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Man, I mean, a 3:1 is always a tough, tough deficit.
- [30:50]
Steve
Yeah, numbers are against you.
- [30:52]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, the numbers are against you, but it just starts with one game, you know, and they can't focus on game six, they can't focus on game seven. You know, the only game they can focus on is Game 5 at home. And, and this has been a close series, you know, right. 3:1. It could be the difference between 2, 2 or them feeling like they should be up 3:1, you know, and this has been a close series. So they know that they're capable of winning and they know they're capable of playing well. They have to sustain, you know, they have to close quarters. You know, if you don't close a quarter, right, that is the difference between winning and losing the game. You know, it could be a, it could be a 31 to 29 game about 40 seconds ago. And if a team going a 40 run instead of it being a two point game, now it's a six point game and you start, you know, a lot of people get so, you know, factuated with the fourth quarter, you know, it's, some of it end of the first quarter, the end of the second quarter, the end of the third quarter. How you close the quarters in the last, you know, 50 to 1:30, you know, on the clock can result in, you know, you winning the game. So I think the New York Knicks have to, they have to play fast. They have to get that, you know, get Indiana, you know, bodies shifting and whatever the case may be. And they, they, they have to close quarters, you know, and if they close quarters, then I think they'll give themselves a good chance to win Game 5. But if not, then we have a, we have a Pacers versus Thunder 2025 final.
- [32:23]
Steve
You made two good points there, one you made earlier and one you just made. I think earlier you said you got to communicate on defense. And I think one of the things the Pacers do to teams is they stretch your bandwidth. You get mentally fatigued with the chaos, right? You get mentally fatigued like, it could be a simple 21, but this time it's a step up, a slip, he throws it back. They're going to. There's so much going on, and it's random. It's not like a pattern that, you know, there's dozens of patterns happening, random patterns. So I think people's bandwidth gets really tested here. And I think the Knicks, you know, to the other point you made about communication is they gotta communicate through these patches. I thought especially in the second half in Indiana, they made a lot of, like, just big errors, like.
- [33:08]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, I agree. Things that you can control. Yeah.
- [33:11]
Steve
Side, out of bounds, back cut, layup stuff that they don't typically give up. I think because their bandwidth was stretched, they made some errors or because of the randomness. He's like this last time, the back cut, he popped for a three. So he tried to cheat it. Right. And he gives up a layup. So I think for them, what they've got to do, and like you said, it takes one game. They have to put pressure on Indiana. So winning at home, winning one game is going to put pressure on you. They have to go home now, and if they don't close out, they're going back to the Garden. So you got to try to find a way to win that one game, shift the momentum, put the pressure on the Pacers. And I think for them, that bandwidth, that communication, like you said, is so pivotal for them to be able to just hold them at bay and try to win a game down the stretch.
- [33:54]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
And also know, too, like, it doesn't matter. We know this Indiana team, it doesn't matter if you get up 25 against them. Right. It's not over. You got to keep going. Like this Pacer team, they don't. They don't stop. They don't stop. They keep playing all the way till Zeros is on the clock. So, you know, if you're able to build a lead and the crowd gets into it, or whatever the case may be, you have to be able to understand that if they make a run, which they will make, how do you combat that? You have to be able to either get to the free throw line to calm it down or get into the lane, you know, or, you know, just make a quick run, you know, and sustain the effort. Because. Because we know this Pacer team, they're not going to stop.
- [34:30]
Steve
They're not going to stop and win the possession game. Like, you can't give up offensive rebounds if they're not turning the ball over, you can't Be kicking the ball over the gym, like you said, get to the foul line, slow it down for a minute, get your defense set. Like so many ways to try to just keep them off the, you know, the full burner, right? Like when they get going and going and going, it gets relentless. But you bring up another great point. How historic is it that against the Bucks, the Cavs and the Knicks and two of them on the road, they've come back from like crazy margins late in games. Like there's something about this team, and I believe they call it walk them down. And they just slowly, methodically, with pace, with pace, find their way back into games. Have you ever seen this before? Like each round they've had these historic comebacks.
- [35:15]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Well, we know, like, you know, we was always talk about when I was making runs like in the, in the, in the 2010s and you know that, that run when I was making with the Heat and with the Cavs, you know, the Golden State warriors were one of those teams, you know, and it always was like, if you can, if you can win the third quarter versus them. Because those guys, they were amazing in the third, right? Oh my goodness, what's going on in.
- [35:37]
Steve
The locker room at halftime?
- [35:38]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Oh my goodness. It's like, you know, it's like early on you talk about it and then if it still happens, then it's like when the coaches come into the locker room and bring it up, you're like, shut the hell up. Don't talk about it. We know like, don't talk about it. We know like, it's like, guys, listen, get out there, get a warm up because Golden State in the third quarter, they're going to try to blitz you right away. You know, they were, you know, there were multiple games, you know, throughout that run they had and you know, they still will do it from time to time as well too. But when Steph and Clay, those guys were really just start the third quarter and they try to hit you with a 90 run right away, make you call a timeout and try to get, and just try to get the momentum going. And you know, so I've been a part of it before where and run. You just couldn't stop it. You knew it was going to happen. It was like an avalanche. And you try to figure out ways you could combat it. And the only way you can combat it is by scoring, by attacking the rim, getting a foul, getting that whistle blown, you know, getting to the free throw line, it'll kind of slow him down a little bit. But Also just kind of just staying like you have to keep, you know, like you said, the bandwidth. You can't allow the bandwidth to stretch too much. You have to keep it where you're like, okay, we've been here before, we understand it, we know they're going to make a run. How do we make sure our bandwidth doesn't stretch to a point where now it's compromised?
- [37:02]
Steve
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- [38:56]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
IQ or the iq. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [38:59]
Steve
So talking about it like you look at the profile of the defense, they have some balance, you know, they have the two bigs then or they can bring some smaller bigs off the bench that are versatile, give you different looks, can switch. They have a lot of speed and mobility everywhere, you know, everywhere on their court. They have Fast, mobile guys, they're. They're one of the handsiest groups I've ever seen. Like crazy getting their hand on guys, drives, shots, whatever it is. Deflections. They have the ability with that speed and mobility to get in the gaps tight, to make the best player have doubt, have doubt. This pass is kind of there, but the way they can fire back out, the way they stun and recover, the way they X out, like we talked about in previous episodes, their man looks like a zone a lot. Then you get to, they do play zone, then they play zone with a trigger demand. Then they'll even play this hybrid zone where like, you Shay may leave the corner or he may leave the high quad and just stand around the nail somewhere and just be big and say this is a no go zone. And they're okay saying, hey, my partner's either going to pick me up or if they pass over high hands, I'll get back. But there's an IQ involved in that. Just love to hear one. Your thoughts on them overall as a defense. And then maybe we get into like how the Pacers and them match.
- [40:18]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Matchup. Yeah. You know, it's funny, after the game last night, I saw the clip from Ann Edwards and he said about their defense, it felt like it was 15 guys on a puppet string.
- [40:27]
Steve
You know, hey, if you're a coach, yeah, like that, that's about as best as a star player.
- [40:33]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Fifteen guys on a puppet string, that means every single one of them are connected. You slide, I slide, you move, I move, you know, and you know, and it starts with, you know, it starts with those guys at the, at the, at the perimeters position. Jada Williams, Lou Do. Shea was one of the best guys with his hands. You know, you don't look at him as a primary defender, but he was up there in the top five, maybe top three in steals per game, you know, and then you have those two athletic bigs that they have in Harnstein and, you know, and the big fellas. So, you know, it's, it's, it's key when you have those guys, you know, with Chad Holmgren, so that is, they have a system in place, but it helps with the athleticism and the personnel, like you said. And then they come off the bench with one of my favorite teammates of all time and Alex Caruso, who is like dog, he's the ultimate Swiss army knife. You could. We've literally seen him guard Giannis. We've seen him guard the Joker, you know, we've seen him guard Ant. We've seen him guard Julius Randle, we've seen him guard Jamal Murray throughout this whole post season. And you look at, you know, plus minus after the game, you know, AC will have five points, three rebounds, two assists, and it's plus minus would be a goddamn plus 17.
- [41:52]
Steve
Yep, yep.
- [41:53]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
You know, and they got. And Casen Wallace comes off, you know, you know, and those guys, Wiggins, you know, all those guys. All those. And everyone when they come in the game, they don't miss a beat defensively. And so I'm super intrigued on seeing how the controlled chaos of the Indiana Pacers offensively pace space, you know, randomness matches up with the, you know, the 15 guys on a public stream defensive mindset of the Oklahoma City Thunder. I think it is a, it's a perfect, it's a perfect matchup.
- [42:29]
Steve
Yeah.
- [42:29]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
You know, when it comes to who's going to be the one, where were the give and take? Now we're playing tug and war. How do we. Is your defense going to pull the string closer to us or is our office going to pull the string? So, like, you know, it's very intriguing to see that matchup because OKC has been the best defense all year and you know, Indiana has hovered around the best offense, you know, all year, but they've always been top five in pace. That has never changed.
- [42:56]
Steve
Yeah, I think, I don't think Indiana wants to see Oklahoma City in the half court. I think it's so important for them to get out there before they get set, before they get those long arms, those mobile defenders loading to the ball.
- [43:08]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
I agree, I agree.
- [43:10]
Steve
They have the functionality to switch all that stuff to play. I think what OKC does, and you could see it against Minnesota or anyone, but like, you know, meeting, meeting and at half court, dort physical, you know, excellent defender, building a kind of a wall, one man wall and presence. The second guy in there zoning up, then a back line of three, which is really intelligent. They have a great feel for how high they should be. You know, I always love when defenses push the boundaries on leaving from the baseline to like the block empty. Like how high can we step to shrink the floor and say, yeah, you can go and try to find guys in the corner over, long arms at the rim over, you know, when we've got you out at 35ft. So why cover this space? Let's compress the floor and move up. And I think their back line does a great job of stepping up higher and higher as long as they can to shrink the floor to take space away to bait you into doing things and just like I said, putting doubt in people's minds.
- [44:06]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Yeah, absolutely. Now you just said, I mean, one of my favorite plays from yesterday, while watching the game, you know, on their clincher to, to get to the NBA Finals, AC Was guarding the ball on the left wing. I believe he was guarding Anthony Edwards, you know, and Anthony Edwards was able to get middle. And obviously, we know we don't. We don't want anyone getting middle, but Anthony Edwards is such a dynamic offensive player. It's going to happen from time to time. But A.C. you know, he went middle and there was a guy at the nail that helped at the nail. He gave full body help, full body help, full body help at the nail and made Anthony Edwards get off to it, hit the guy in the wing, and there was a defender in the corner and he rotated all the way, you know, to take away that shot at the wing. Now, normally, you know, you say, I don't want to give up corner threes. No corner threes. You know, you want to try to stay home on that and force above the break three. But they rotated all the way out, and instead of AC Just standing and watching, he was guarding the ball and found his way all the way. He ran through the corner and Julius Randle actually made this three.
- [45:08]
Steve
Right.
- [45:09]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
But the percentages, when it comes to that effort, they're going to win that percentage. He got a great contest, full hands contest, everything. And Julius Randle made that one. But we've seen throughout the series, Drew was not in a good. He was not in a good rhythm. He didn't make that shot. All rhythm, you know, all series. And that's just like they're on a string now. I don't know, because I've played with AC I don't know if that's built in from their, you know, what they do every day, Shell defense, or that's just AC Being AC in nature. Yeah. And you. And you know, you have, you know, we had an opportunity when we won into 2020. We had AC as a defender and we also had Rondo as the offensive guy. So they had the luxury and the freedom to make up shoot. And you knew it was going to be beneficial to the team. So, like, a guy like A.C. he's so intellectual, he's so smart that he knows that if my teammate is helping me, he put a full body at the nail. I gave up middle, full body at the nail. Oh, shit. I can't stand and watch. I got to get to the corner and help my teammates.
- [46:17]
Steve
We're going to be weak somewhere else.
- [46:18]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
We're going to be weak somewhere else. So I just thought that was super intelligent. And even though, like I said, you made the three, you know, I was like that. You keep playing defense like that, that's.
- [46:27]
Steve
Not going to beat us.
- [46:28]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
That's just not going to beat us. And I love that. That was just amazing to see.
- [46:31]
Steve
Well, I think you bring up a great example for fans. Like when you watch this defense like you just, you just nailed on the head. They're a pack the pain team. They want to keep you out of the paint. So for the fan, if a guy drives from the wing middle, typically in our league we try to show body and stunt because we don't want to give up that three or create a rotation. They will show full body, help to keep it out of the paint, especially on the primary initiator in ant. So they give a full body stunt, like a rot, not a stunt, full body rotation, which leaves obviously weakness on the backside. So the guy from the corner on a string, 15 puppets on a string, who's an athlete, flies out of the corner. And in this scenario, you know, it's, it's AC flying out to the corner. It might be the big, the low man going. But I think what they do is they pack the pain. They give up threes, but they give up contested threes, hard contests, flying at guys. It gets dark, you know, you think you're wide open. Before you know it, it's like, ah, so to the point, like Julius made that shot. But that's a tough shot to make all night when someone is flying by you.
- [47:35]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Absolutely.
- [47:36]
Steve
So for the fan to recognize, they're going to try to keep you out of the paint. They're going to allow you to take threes, but they're going to fly out and be on a string and contest those threes. And I love that principle. I love that they say you're going to kill us at our rim. We don't want to give up layups, fouls, offensive rebounds that lead to more layups, fouls or threes, and they keep that paint air yet a no go zone. So to me that's a commitment, that's a clarity. And then of course, like we talked about earlier, you have principals, you have athletes, you have a roster, you have profiles, but you also have a team that has IQ like AC to decide. I'm not going to watch and wait and see who's supposed to be coming from under the basket. He's like, I got beat. I Can see the corner and I'm gone. And then his teammates go, we don't need two. Going. AC's got this. I'm a big, I'll stay by the rim. That type of intelligence, you see it like they're, you know, not just the principal and packing the pitch. Pain, keeping teams out of the pain, but the ability to read and react with each other is special.
- [48:31]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
No, absolutely. And that's why, where they are right now, that's why they're hosting the Western Conference in the NBA Finals. They have the ability to do multiple things out on the floor, you know, playing, like you said when we started this conversation to, to begin with, with okc, they have the ability to play two bigs, two mobile bigs. Then they have the ability to go small and, and, and, and play smaller. You know, with a, with a lineup that's just super fast, super, you know, agitating super quick. And you know, you saw a few times like, you know, Rudy Gobert, as big as Rudy is, as big as, you know, the Joker is, You know, they get off as rebounds and it's like a swarm. You know, you see guys jumping on their backs, you know, guys coming from up underneath and stripping the ball. And once they get a strip and now they're off to the races. That's their game. You know, you, you, you turn the ball over versus okc, it's going to be a layup or a dunk, you know, so they don't fear, they don't fear size, you know, because, you know, they have, they have them dogs, they have them athletic guys and then they have the intelligence, you know, and you know, that, you know, that, that is a whole nother layer. We've seen a lot of really good teams. We've seen a lot of good athletes. We've seen a lot of good, you know, teams that's put together. But when you're able to. Also just that last piece is the intellectual part, the iq, and they have that.
- [49:47]
Steve
Yeah, one, one last way to kind of chop up if these two teams meet in the final or something to watch will be the possession game because they both are great at it. They both take care of the basketball. They get shots. I think both teams are good guard, offensive rebounders, they get like AC is relentless at trying to get tip outs. You know, same with Nemhard. Like, so they have guards getting extra possession. So you gotta make sure you're getting defensive rebounds. You know, I think it's, you know, we say styles make fights. There's scenarios where either team can have the big advantage in this because their differences. But I think OKC just, if they can get back in transition, make them play in a half court, is gonna have a advantage. Having said that, man, this Pacers team surprised us round after round, season after season.
- [50:31]
Unnamed Basketball Analyst
Last three years. I think at this point it's just hard to doubt the Pacers. You know, obviously, I think, you know, going into the Finals, you know, the. The favors will be okc, and rightfully so. They've had the best year all year, I mean, along with the Cavs. But obviously we're. We know what the Pacers did to the Cavs, so it's going to be hard to count the Pacers out. But the possession game is going to be huge. You know, who can win the possession game? You know, you know, OKC coming in with the mvp and also guys that's just been there before. I mean, AC has won a championship before, you know, but also you look on the other side, you know, the way Halle's playing, and they've got guys that won it before. Pascal has won a championship before with the Raptors. So, you know, there's some intriguing. There's some intriguing things, some intriguing storylines. Got guys on both sides that's not afraid of the moment, you know, and not afraid to fail. So, you know, it's going to be super intriguing. But like you said, I'll second that. I know. And we both can attest to this. It would be a much better basketball for the Patriots if they can get out and run and get out and move before, you know, those 15 guys on the puppet string get set. For sure.
- [51:50]
Steve
Thanks for watching. Mind the game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more content.