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- [00:02]
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Producer
Are we recording or are we? Yep. And my sound is good. Everything's good. Yeah, we're all good. Yep. Recording in progress. They are now shutting the door.
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JJ Redick
Welcome to Mind The Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick. Brought to you by Uninterrupted and 342 Productions. This is episode nine of Mind the Game. LeBron and I do a finals preview. Two fantastic teams in the Dallas Mavericks and the Boston Celtics. I really believe And I think LeBron does as well. This is going to be an awesome NBA Finals. We have talked about a lot of the concepts that we talk about in this episode in prior episodes, so not much to get into from an X and O standpoint. There is one Boston set that we do spend a lot of time on and that is horns two or V2. This was a play that I started running when I was on the LA Clippers. A lot of times it would be Jamal Crawford, DeAndre Jordan and me in the V2 or Horns2 action. I also ran this a lot when I was on the New Orleans Pelicans.
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LeBron James
V2.
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JJ Redick
Horns2. This is how Boston will run it a lot of times. Let's say again, horns two or V2. This is a five out alignment. Ball handler is in the middle a lot of times. This is Derrick White and there's a bunch of different stuff that you, you can get to out of this. Just show some of the options. Derrick White can pass here a lot of times. This is Jayson Tatum. Jayson Tatum is a screener off the ball. So valuable for the Boston Celtics in creating mismatches and when they don't switch, creating actions like this. Jayson Tatum setting a rip screen on Derrick White. He can either flare for a three or he can cut to the basket. Derrick White gets this cut probably at least once a game. Another thing they'll run, let's say Jrue Holiday is here and we'll put Jason Tatum here and Jaylen Brown here. These three guys, when they get into this triangle up at the top of V2, they get a lot of good stuff out of this. One thing that Drew is really good at, Jason as well is if Jaylen Brown enters to Jayson Tatum. Drew will set this rip screen. And if a team is switching, he'll set it at an angle where he can immediately slip into space. Now, when Jayson Tatum hits Jrue Holiday on that cut, this could be Derrick White on that cut. Could be Jayson Tatum on that cut. But when they get this cut, they've now got shooting all around them. A lot of times they'll put X5, they'll put Horford or Porzingis in this right here. And as this defender goes to help on this slip, the pass goes to the corner. You get a wide open three. They get a lot of stuff out of that rip screen into a slip. Another basic thing they do. If this is, let's say, the five man, we'll just say it's Porzingis. Let's just say it's Porzingis over here. Let's say this is Tatum over here. This was how I used to run it. This could be DeAndre Jordan.
- [04:00]
LeBron James
This could be Derek Favors.
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JJ Redick
This could be Jackson Hayes. The point guard, ball handler will hit the five man. He'll go set a down screen for the shooter or the playmaker. And this guy will come off a little dribble handoff right here. Porzingis. Al Horford rolling into space. DeAndre Jordan rolling into space. That's like a V2 with a dribble handoff. The flare screen. I've seen Boston run for Kristaps Porzingis. So Kristaps Porzingis will be up top. He'll hit the wing, he'll get this rip screen and flare into space again. That's a 7 foot 3 guy flaring to 27ft. Good stuff. The other concept out of V2 we talk about, and I'll just. Doesn't really matter who this is, but a lot of times this is the five man.
- [04:51]
LeBron James
Okay?
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JJ Redick
This is Horn's twist. So the ball handler will come. This will be a screen right here. You get the switch and the matchup you want on the primary ball handler. This screener will just clear out of there, and then you're right into this downhill right hand drive.
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LeBron James
A lot of the stuff we talk.
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JJ Redick
About as it relates to the Dallas Mavericks is about pick and roll coverage versus Luka. Again, we've covered all these concepts before. Drop, switch up to touch, blitz. It'll be interesting to see how the Boston Celtics match up across the board. You probably want to stay out of two on the ball, but the numbers as we talk about in this episode are pretty surprising. When it Comes to the most effective way to guard Luka Doncic in pick and roll. A bunch more stuff that we get to on both these teams. Can't wait to call these NBA Finals. This is Mind The Game Episode 9, NBA Finals preview with LeBron James and JJ Redick.
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Producer
Enjoy.
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LeBron James
Brian, what's up, man? How we doing?
- [06:03]
Producer
Fantastic. Fantastic.
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LeBron James
I thought we could just talk NBA Finals. Maybe a little preview of what's to come for everybody. We are recording this on Thursday. Tonight is game five of the Western Conference. We are going to talk about the Minnesota Timberwolves, but we are going to go a little bit on the assumption that Minnesota will not be the first team to come back from a 3, 0 deficit. Could happen. I'm not saying it couldn't. In which case this whole episode is, you know, to me there's like different teams obviously, but there's a little parallel between you and Anthony Edwards. This is his first time making a deep playoff run. He's 22 years old. Your first deep playoff run was at 22 years old. You guys got to the finals, ended up losing to San Antonio. What do you sort of remember about that run? What do you remember about being in the finals for the first time?
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Producer
What I remember about that run is I was so like, I didn't even know what was going on. I mean, I'm 22 years old. You know, I'm trying to take in as much of the information as I possibly can. But more importantly, I just wanted to go out there and not overcomplicate myself with information and just go out and just play free. As a 22 year old, that's. I feel like that's what you should be doing. You know, I feel like as I got older, throughout my career I could gather more information and still go out and perform. But at 22, it's like, hey, coach, just give me a couple, give me a couple things offensively and defensively, you know, and I'm just going to trust that my IQ and my game is going to. And my energy level is going to withstand, you know, the pressure of the post season. And I was just out there just playing. So I guess free, you know, no one gave us a chance, obviously, and no one gave me a chance at 22. It was only my fourth year in the NBA and you know, we were, we got to the Eastern Conference finals going against, you know, the big bad Pistons that, you know, was beating up on pretty much everybody in the Eastern Conference. I think they went to like five straight Easter Conference finals. So it was just about just going out there and just competing and playing hard and, and just seeing what happens. And I was able to, you know, to have a couple great games and that Easter Conference finals appearance and then go on to playing the dynasty of the Spurs. And that is when you actually needed the information against San Antonio, against Pop, Manu, you know, Tony, Tim, you know, and that crew and, you know, but it was a great experience, man, just to, to be able to get to the finals. And that was a time when it was super cool to see the big old Larry O'Brien trophy planted on the court. You know, I remember all those times I used to watch it and seeing that. But it was a great experience for, you know, a 22 year old kid. Up until that point in my career.
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LeBron James
I remember, you know, that playoff run, that was my rookie year in the NBA. And it felt a little bit like you guys because you weren't the favorites against the Pistons and you certainly weren't the favorites against the Spurs. It's that feeling of like playing with found money, right? It's house money. It's. It's just. There's a, there's a freedom to it. And it's interesting that you say that you kind of didn't really even know what was going on. Does, you know, looking back at that, certainly some of those Warriors Cav series, you guys were the underdogs.
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JJ Redick
And then you have your year with.
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LeBron James
The Heat and your year with the, your years with the Heat, I should say, and then your year with the Lakers where you're the favorites. Does the feeling change? Does the mentality change? Does the pressure change? And the reason I bring this up is because I feel like with Boston there seems to be, you know, a weight. And it's based on past experience, it's based on this season in particular. It's based on the fact that they fucking play in Boston, which they're, they're fans. There's an expectation, right? It just is. It's constant. And as a player, I'm wondering how much you felt that going into a Finals where you were the underdog versus the favorite.
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Producer
Well, I mean, you're right on, J.J. when it comes to that. You know, being going into a Finals where you're the underdog, you definitely have a different demeanor. You have a different feeling. It's a different weight that's on your shoulders and in your mind and on your back and on your chest or whatever. You definitely feel that. You can feel how less of anticipation or less of people saying that you guys are the Favors, you guys should win. This is your series, whatever the case may be. But I've been on both sides. I've been on sides where, like you said, I've been the favorite and lost, and I've been on the side where I was the underdog and won. You know, so it all comes down to literally who you're matching up against. I mean, listen, let's not get it, you know, messed up or start thinking crazy about, okay, favorites, non favorites. The best team with the best players and who can withstand runs in the finals in the post season is going to be the team that's going to win. You know, and, you know, like I said, when we was a favorite in one of our series, when I was in. When I was in Miami versus Dallas, you know, we had times where we played exceptionally well, but we did not withstand some of their runs. And they had some of those runs that took us, you know, a long time to get out of, and they controlled. You know, there's obviously, you know, playing in the league for so long and me being in the league for so long, those last two minutes of every quarter would decide a game. Those last two minutes. And people can say, you know, what about the first 10? Obviously, we know. We know 12 minutes in the quarter, we know those first tens are important, but literally that last two minutes in the third and fourth, those things decide a game and can ultimately decide a series. So, you know, that's, you know, I can feel. I know what Boston is going through, you know, being a favorite and having a weight on their shoulders. And, you know, like you said, the expectation, because they've been there so many times. It's like, okay, how many times you gonna climb this mountain to where now you keep sliding back down it and not actually getting to the top and going back down the other way, you know, so they're definitely feeling it. But, you know, up until this point, listen, it don't matter who's put in front of you. We all NBA players, and they're taking care of business right now.
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LeBron James
It's so interesting that the. The end of quarter, start of quarters, finishing games, it's become a real talking point. I've heard a number of coaches talk about it. Joe Mazzulla probably more so than anyone. And, you know, I brought this up this morning with rj. You look at game four, and up until that point, Dallas had won the last three minutes of the fourth quarter. They had finished that quarter. Yeah, Minnesota, of course, finishes the fourth quarter better in game four. They ended up winning. But There was an opportunity at the end of that second quarter where Carl Anthony Townsend was on the bench with foul trouble, Rudy Gobert was on the bench with foul trouble and Anthony Edwards was on the bench with foul trouble.
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Producer
All with three. All with three. Yep.
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LeBron James
And it was a tie game. And it went to halftime as a tie game. Dallas didn't create any sort of separation or margin there. And so when you look at like in this series, the one guy Joe always brings up is Peyton Pritchard. You know, and look, matchups in the playoffs are different. Peyton didn't play a ton versus Indiana, but he's always been a guy who checks in at the end of the first quarter. He can help create a margin. He's out there for the beginning of the second quarter. He can create a margin. So it's little stuff like that, little nuances of matchups and rotations and lineups where if you talk about an NBA Finals game and I want you to co sign this. Cause I've been saying this for the last two weeks. It's hard to win in the NBA. It's hard to win a regular season. It's really hard to win a playoff game. It is fucking extremely difficult. And I know it cause I've been there once and I lived through what two games we should have won. We just saw what happened with the Pacers in the Eastern Conference Finals. It is extremely difficult to win a NBA Finals game. To win one NBA Finals game. And so it's this little stuff on the margins where you can pick up some separation.
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Producer
No, absolutely. And I cosign that for sure. I mean, listen. And I've lived it as well, obviously. But you know, for me, like I've been to the point where you lived.
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LeBron James
It many more times than I did. You have lived it. I should speak about you in the.
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Producer
Present because you're still playing, you know, like you said, I mean, Jay, I've been where I've won one game, I've been where I've been able to win four games, to be able to host a trophy. And I've also been on the side that I haven't won one game. And I can look at this one of those instances where I was like, we had a chance. I look at, I believe it was 2017, 2017, game one in Golden State. You know, you know, we had an opportunity to win that game one, you know, I remember one play that still burns, burns me inside is, you know, I read Kevin Durant with his right to left crossover and you know, and I'm able to step over and get a charge, and, you know, the referees went to go look at it. I still got, you know, you know, still got some hurt feelings about that. And they went over and looked at it and called it a block. A block, block charge, you know, and, you know, that game didn't go the way it went, you know, as way we wanted to, but that could change the trajectory of a series. Were we the better team that series? I don't know. Were we the most talented team in that series? Absolutely not. I mean, Golden State added a generational player in Kevin Durant, but we had zero room for error. That goes along with game one of the Eastern Conference finals this year with Indiana. They don't have room for error going against a team like Boston. And when you have an opportunity to close out the game, you're up three with the ball, with the timeout, and you turn the ball over one, and then you still have an opportunity to, you know, possibly foul before the shot goes up or whatever the case may be. MVP of the Eastern Conference finals, Jaylen Brown makes it. And here we are sitting with Boston in the finals, you know, so I.
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LeBron James
Want to revisit the fouling up three thing, because we did a whole discussion on it, all right. Because it's been a big topic throughout the playoffs and on the broadcast, Mike had asked me, what would you do here? I said, I always foul. There are times when you can't foul.
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Producer
There are.
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LeBron James
And I would say there was probably too much separation created by Derrick White's back screen. T.J. mcConnell doesn't switch. Siakam was not there on the catch. And I asked Joe about it, and Joe said he teaches you run through the guy. So once the ball is in the air, you can basically tackle. Not say tackle, but you run through the guy.
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Producer
Yeah, you do.
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LeBron James
I feel like he wasn't there right on the catch, and he didn't have time to foul. But certainly you look at the Chris Middleton shot, right? We talked about this. Yeah, we talked about the Chris Middleton shot where they're lobbing a pass into Brook Lopez at the top of the.
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Producer
Key, and it was back towards the basketball.
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LeBron James
You have an opportunity right back towards the basket. You have an opportunity to essentially run through the guy.
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Producer
Yeah, yeah.
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LeBron James
So there's a difference. I want to talk Celtics. Let's. If you were to just sort of break down what you think they do best, like what makes them great beyond just the talent. We all know there's a lot of talented teams and they have a surplus of Talent. What do you think makes them great? What's the best thing they do?
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Producer
I think they, they do it with the past that a lot of people don't really give them credit for. I think they're dribble penetration and once they see the defense start to rotate, they do it with the pass. To be honest, throughout the course of the 48 minute game, they really only have two ISO guys, you know, and that's Jason Tatum and that's Jaylen Brown. Obviously Peyton Pritchard has the ability to play low ISO ball as well, but they just have two ISO guys. The rest of those guys, they move off the pass, they move off the defense. Shifting, you've loaded up on those two great guards or you know, great wings and Jason and Jalen. And then that's when their personnel really kicks in. That's when Derrick White is playing on a closeout. That's when Jrue Holiday is playing on a closeout. You know, that's when Peyton Pritchard is playing on a closeout. Al Horford plays on a closeout, you know, and I think that's. They don't get enough credit for their ball movement when they're driving the baseline or driving the 45 the slot and getting the defense rotating, you know, and that is their, that's their, you know, their superpower is once that ball get to popping and they got five guys around that perimeter that can all shoot the three. They all shoot in high 30s, some of them in the 40s, obviously. But I don't think they get enough credit with how they play with the pass and the body movement that they have.
- [19:44]
LeBron James
Yeah, I think that I would describe what you're saying as the Boston Celtics are at their best when they're doing that. They're at their best when they're getting you in rotation. And they create that in a number of ways. You bring up the ISO stuff and when they are five out, they're spaced. They almost always have five shooters on the floor. Now against the Pacers, Cornette was out there some. Cause Porzingis was not playing, Tillman was out there some. Brucet was out there some. So they did play some lineups where they had four shooters, you know, only.
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Producer
Four, only four, only four shooters.
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LeBron James
But for the most part, for the most part, in their eight man rotation when they're healthy, they got five shooters. And so you bring up the 45 and I think that's a great example of just how they get you in rotation. So this is, let's just say it's Jaylen Brown getting to his right hand, right. Jaylen Brown getting to his right hand. And this low guy has to come over, right? So now you've created a two on one over here. As this guy comes over, let's say he kicks to the corner. Now you're at that point. Boston has won the possession. Yep, Boston has won the possession because you are now in rotation, right. X guy goes, somebody's flying at the slot guy and it's just beating you with the pass. And they're all capable of playing out of close outs, as you mentioned. So I think, I think the spacing is to me, what starts everything for them offensively and the way they're able to get to on the ball, the play that I love. And this is what I want to sort of talk about with, with you today. Is there you call it horns two or you call it horns two?
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Producer
Yeah, B2.
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LeBron James
We talked about horns two chest earlier, but in one of the other episodes, I want to talk about their horns two and how sort of they run it. And we'll just put Al Horford over there and Drew over here and we'll just say Porzingis is not in the lineup for this. So they run it a bunch of different ways. This is, to me, the best thing they do. This is Jason Tatum right here.
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Producer
Correct.
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LeBron James
Let's just say he's in that sort of right elbow area. Using Jayson Tatum as a screener because Derrick White's defender is oftentimes one of the weaker guys. This could also be Drew up here. So they use whoever the weakest guy, along with JB and JT and Jayson Tatum as a screener creates so much. So let's say they run their horns two flare. Derrick White makes the pass. Jayson Tatum sets the flare. There are so many things they get out of this. So obviously Derek White for three, they don't switch Derek White. Curling, JB hits them. Now all of a sudden you've got shooters, you've got Derrick White getting a layup. The other reason I really like this is because they do, I think, a better job than. Better job than anyone on these rip screens when there is a switch. JT setting this rip screen on Derrick White, if they know they're switching the angle, they set this and slip. Yep, they get that so much. And again, so everything is built off of spacing. But the way they're able to manipulate matchups. Do you think, whether it is Dallas, whether it is Minnesota, do you think, number one, do you think they have the right personnel Number two, specifically with this hornstho flare, we'll talk about the other actions out of horns two in a second. But with this hornstu flare, is switching the right call against the Celtics or is there a better way to do it?
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Producer
I think showing any great team a steady diet of the same, the same thing throughout the course of 48 minutes is going to be a death to you. You have to switch it up, you have to change pitches. You know, you can't just show, you know, great players and great teams a steady diet of the same. You know, anything they will get, they will get too comfortable. They will understand it, they will start seeing it, and then they'll expose it, you know, so, you know, I think there are times where you can start, you can switch that action, but there's times where you have to be extremely physical and body up and try to, you know, force to catch out. You can't let the opposite guy, if it's Jaylen Brown or if it's Al Horford or if it's Jru Holliday, catch the ball right at the elbow. You have to push them off the elbow just maybe just a little bit, you know, and you know, and a lot of times, you know, a lot of the conversations need to be had before you even get on the floor. You know, you need to be talking about, okay, listen, this is nutcrunching time. These are the sets that they gonna go to because they know they're gonna get a good shot out of it. So we gotta be ready for it, you know. But you know, like you said, Joe, do a great job of putting those guys in position and understanding who's on the other team when they're guarding them. So you look at, you know, with this matchup with Dallas, you know, obviously you got, you got Kyrie, you got Luka, you got PJ Washington, Derrick Jones and Gafford or Lively starting at that, at that five that position. I'm guessing that Kyrie will be on Derrick White. You know, you'll have Derrick Jones and pj. They'll decide who will be on Jaylen Brown and Tatum. You'll have Luka on Jrue Holiday. They're trying to take away his post ups because that's where Drew is really good. We've seen how many times he big shouldered Obie Toppin, you know, in late games, you know, so you try to play Siakam. Siakam big shoulder and ones, you know, he big shoulder those guys. So you want to try to keep a bigger body on Drew and then you'll have Lively or Gafford on Al Horford or Porzingis if he's. If he's available. So they'll probably have whoever Kyrie is guarding initiate that offense that we just drew up and see if they can get the switch. See if they don't switch. Can Tatum get a nice clean screen where Derrick White or Jrue Holiday gets a layup off that foot off that flare, gets a three off the flare, cut to the basket, get a layup. This is the worst thing that can happen, that two guys go with one. Where Tatum sets the rip screen, Kyrie is afraid to take the body off Derrick White, and he curls around and PJ or Derrick Jones goes with them. And now Jason Tyler. Tatum stops back 4, 3 by himself. That is the worst thing that can happen. So you have to go in with a definite game plan on. This is what we're going to start with. Let's see if that work. If it doesn't, we'll be ready to make the adjustment.
- [26:43]
LeBron James
There's a couple things I want to run back out of this, but for the most part, let's just have two offensive players here.
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Producer
Yep.
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LeBron James
And let's just say this is Jalen, and let's say you do a good job switching, and this ends up being Jayson Tatum and whoever this guy initiated the offense. It could be Drew. It could be Derek has now cut through to the basket.
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Producer
Correct.
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LeBron James
It's interesting because a lot of teams, when you get to this point and you have this 45, as you said, ISO or slot, ISO. A lot of teams after this guy is cut through will send him weak side to the dunker spot. Boston, a lot of times they don't do it always, but a lot of times, this is a lot of times Derek could be Al Horford. A lot of times it's Drew as well. They actually sit in the dunker spot in the strong side. And if Jayson Tatum is able to get to his strong hand, this guy, like, doesn't ever help. It's actually bizarre. And Tatum could just drive and score. And the other thing it creates, though, is you're essentially having these two weak side defenders. Then make a decision. How much do I want to help? Right. You're actually, in some ways, you're taking this guy off the floor.
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Producer
Yeah.
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LeBron James
If you put him. If you put him weak side, you know this. If you put. Let's say it's Derek White, weak side, this guy now is the low man. This guy is the X man. He can play, too.
- [28:06]
Producer
Yep. He can play too. So by, so by Boston putting that guy on a strong block, it's almost essentially like defender. You almost like you feel like don't help strong side, strong side shooter.
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LeBron James
Right.
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Producer
So you kind of like, do I go help? Do I help up? You know, it's the same kind of trigger that Denver gives you when Joker drives right and you got Aaron Gordon right there. It's like, do I help up or do I stay back? Do I play the cat and mouse game if I help up lob to Aaron Gordon, you know, so it's very challenging. We've seen like we just seen these conference finals. We've seen many times where Jaylen Brown or Tatum would drive that slot and either x 2 or 3 who's down there guarding Jrue or Derrick White would help up those guys get just an easy layup or if they don't, you get a walk in layup for either one of those guys. So it's. That's pretty smart thinking on Joe and his staff.
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LeBron James
Yeah, I mean, I like it. I mean I think at least for most of your career and certainly all of my career, like I don't remember teams and this is something new. I think teams are really paying attention especially with smaller players putting them in the dunker spot because essentially you negate them actually being a defender because they're just small. And by the way, by the way with Dallas, one thing to watch with them because they played Clippers first round heavy ISO team. They played against Shea and Jalen Williams in the second round with OKC heavy ISO team and now they're playing against Anthony Edwards isos.
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Producer
So they're equipped.
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LeBron James
So. But watch what they'll do. Let's say Kyrie is on Derrick White and they didn't get any switch and Derrick White goes down there, Drew goes down there. If Kyrie is the low guy on an ISO, they almost always will move him out. The other defender on that side will.
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JJ Redick
Say, switch with me.
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LeBron James
It could be Luka, could be pj, could be Derek. We want to get Kyrie out, out of there.
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Producer
They want to kick him off.
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LeBron James
He's not going against size. Exactly, exactly. This is the other one I like. And they'll run this well. They've run a couple other ones, but this is like horns 2 twist basically. So I'm going to put the big up here because a lot of times they will run it. And this could be Cornette with the backups, it could be Horford, but I'm going to put KP here.
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Producer
Yeah.
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LeBron James
So Derrick White will come off jb, JB will then cut through and sometimes he'll space, sometimes he just kind of stays in the dunker and then KP comes and runs into a ball screen. And the thing with KP that's interesting in particular about this series. So now you got Derek White going to his strong hand, one of the best pick and roll ball handlers in terms of efficiency this year according to second Spectrum. And you got KP popping and this is against, by the way, this is against Daniel Gafford. It's against Derek Lively, right?
- [30:58]
Producer
Yep.
- [30:59]
LeBron James
This to me is probably the biggest question mark. I have about two great defense. I think Dallas and Minnesota have two great defenses. So how do you anticipate them dealing with the Porzingis pick and rolls?
- [31:16]
Producer
You know, that's going to be a big time challenge and obviously personnel wise, you see who's on the floor. But at the end of the day, if Porzingis is active, then nine times out of 10 they're going to have five shooters out on the floor. So you can't, you know how. You know, in the OKC series Dallas was allowed to hide Gafford at times and Lively and put him on Josh Giddey, you know, and kind of keep them roaming, you know, not afraid of his pick and pops, not afraid of him being spaced in the corner. So he was able to get away with it to the point where OKC made a change and started, you know, decided to put Josh Giddey off the bench. So that will be the biggest question mark. JJ on who guards Porzingis. Obviously we know, I believe it will be Gafford and or Lively, but how do they deal with that horns twist action or how do they deal with just a thumb down or a thumb up action where Przingis just runs up from the middle of the floor and probably doesn't even set it all the time and gives those guys a right hand where he's popping and you putting, you know, X5 lively, you know, Lively Gafford, you know, in a pickle, in a position where it's like, okay, do I help on the guard or do I allow him to get downhill? So I think what helps in Dallas case, if that is the case, having Maxi Cleaver back, I think that helps a lot. I know he's been out for a while since round one versus the Clippers, but it does allow them to now start switching a lot, you know, and I know that's always challenging against Boston because they have so many great ISO players, but I Do think there's times in certain matchups where Maxey can switch out on some of the Boston guards and contain them?
- [33:03]
LeBron James
Yeah, he's a very valuable defender. At the very least he can stay in front and use his length. Right. At the very least. It's interesting because I actually today I watched a pretty long edit of all of Anthony Edwards isos against the Dallas Mavericks. And it's interesting because you brought up the roaming thing off of Giddey. And to me, for the most part in these isos they're kind of just ignoring Gobert and whoever is on Gobert, whether it's lively, Gafford, Kleba, they are essentially roaming and they're just essentially banking on the fact that, that they got multiple guys behind them. Right. And they're going to play rotation x game out of that. You can't, you just can't really do that. Against the Boston Celtics and there was one clip, there was one clip where you know, Anthony Edwards had it up top and he was playing in a five shooter lineup. It was McDaniels, it was Nas Reed, Carl Anthony Towns and Mike Conley. Right. He got past his man, Gafford was forced to help McDaniels get to a slot three. So to me it's like point of attack defense versus the Celtics isos and then being great in rotation. But again, this is what you said at the beginning, like they are so good once they get into the pass game, once they get you into rotation, that's to me is when they're at their best. And that's really going to be the biggest issue I think against Dallas is there isn't somebody to roam off of.
- [34:40]
Producer
No, nobody. There's not one person you can roam off of that Dallas puts out on the. I mean that Boston puts out on the floor. They are well equipped. They know exactly where everybody is. You know, to go back on what you just said on the Minnesota piece, you know, there's times offensively with Minnesota when Gerber Goldberg is on the floor. It's. You don't quite feel like he knows where to be successful when they're roaming off of him or the team doesn't know. You know, there was a big time play in game four. You know, Karl Anthony Towns was at the four and essentially Kyle Anderson was playing the five. And you know, there was a play where Anthony Edwards was isoed on the right wing and no one was guarding Kyle Anderson. And Kyle Anderson, we know is one of the smartest guys in the NBA. He used what they were doing against him to the benefit for Kat and was able to set a flare screen opposite the ball onto Kyrie and got cat a big time three. I mean, up until that point, I think Katt made one before that. But up until that point, through the first three and a half. Three. Three games and three quarters, Katt had zero airspace. But going back to what I'm saying, Kyle Anderson just used his brain and saying, okay, yes, you guys are gonna shit on me because I am not a spacer. And me playing the dunker doesn't benefit because I'm not super athletic. I can't catch lobs. But you know what? I know there's a guy not guarding me, so I know that if I'm setting a screen on someone, then my guy can't help him. And that was a big time, big time shot. They went up six, forced Dallas to call a timeout. So, you know, you have to be able to play the game within the game.
- [36:31]
LeBron James
We want to celebrate, and I think we're being very positive with the Celtics right now. We're not trying to make it seem like they're regardable.
- [36:40]
Producer
I know Laker Nation is going for the Dallas Laker Mavericks.
- [36:47]
LeBron James
Yeah, look, but I do want to make a point, and I don't think Minnesota has been very clean with their spacing. Your point about Gobert is a valid point. I don't think they're clean with even simple stuff like a slot ISO. Watching this stuff, a slot ISO, you typically have the ball side player all the way in the corner, a top ISO, or even just a shade left or right of the top. You typically have the next man spaced to the four point line 45 degrees. Their spacing is very dense. It's or their spacing is very condensed. Sometimes the guy doesn't get all the way to the corner. Sometimes the next man is like 8ft away when he's got the space to move. And so, yeah, you're like, oh, Anthony Edwards, you turn the ball over. I think it was game two where he just didn't drive the basketball and you're like, where's he supposed to go?
- [37:55]
Producer
Yeah, there's eight guys. There's eight guys and 16 eyes right there.
- [38:03]
LeBron James
My curiosity about the way Dallas has played against these ISOs, because again, Boston, I want to say, was the fourth most frequent ISO team in the regular season. J.B. tatum, large part of that. To your point, they have been even against shooters, whether it's Mike Conley, Jaden McDaniels, Isaiah Joe, @ times, you know, Casen Wallace, at times, even against shooters, they've been more than willing. I don't want to call it over help, but over show help position against isolation.
- [38:37]
Producer
Yeah.
- [38:37]
LeBron James
Like they, they are. And then just rely on the closeout. And I don't know if they do that against, against Boston. But that's something that I'm very curious about in terms of how they, how they have their shifts against isolation.
- [38:51]
Producer
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because we know that on any given day, any given evening, that Boston can ring off 25 made threes, you know, and that is very frustrating for a defense, you know, where, you know, as a player, you know, we go into a game and you're like, okay, we want to be heavy shift. We want to create no lanes for these two guys, you know, but we're giving up 60 attempts from the three point line, in which case they can make 25 of them. So I have a lot of confidence, you know, that J kid and his staff, you know, being able to work with those guys for some years, that they will have a game plan that's similar to what they've been doing. Obviously, because you get, I mean, when you get to this point of the postseason, you can't just tear everything up and throw it away and say, oh, wait, we got a new thing for the. No, no, you can't do that. Yeah, yeah, you built these habits all throughout the year and across the postseason. But they will have some things that will be different from what they've done versus Minnesota, versus okc, versus the Clippers once they face Boston. Because it's a different beast, it's a different monster. We know that.
- [40:10]
LeBron James
Yeah. And the other thing I would just say is whether it's P.J. washington, whether it's Derrick Jones Jr. Those two matchups against JB and Jayson Tatum, look, those guys can stay in front at times. It's not like they're getting beat every time. And I would say Kyrie's engagement level defensively, let's say there is a switch on an ISO and you've got PJ Washington with length, Derrick Jones Jr. With length in a shift. That stuff matters. Like they are equipped, they are equipped to defend this Boston team. I believe that.
- [40:45]
Producer
I agree.
- [40:46]
LeBron James
But this Boston team is a different animal offensively than anything they faced so far. And it's because of the spacing and the shooting.
- [40:52]
Producer
Yeah.
- [40:53]
LeBron James
And I think that's fair.
- [40:54]
Producer
Absolutely. And when it comes down to being shifted, the worst thing you can do is have guys out on the floor that's in a two way stunt. And Meaning when I say that it's okay if we want to be shifted, you need to be in to start. So when you're already in and you're showing length, you're showing hands, once that pass happened, it's just a one way stunt. You've already at the ball, you're at the level and I'm getting out. But you know, sometimes, you know, guys pride versus certain teams and versus JB and Jayson Tatum, you're like, okay, we need to, I want to. This is my matchup. And then a drive happens and now you're doing a two way stunt. You're going from being bodied up to now trying to stop the ball and then try to get back out. It's too late. So it's either one or the other. Either, either you're going to, either you're going to live with giving up drives to Boston and not helping on the threes, or you're going to be in to start, ready to fire out and getting contest and getting high hands. And listen, you're going to have to fly around because one thing, one thing I've learned in the NBA, listen, we can write it, we can script it, but sometimes you just got to figure that shit out. Let's just figure it out. There's going to be times where you absolutely fucked up that possession because either a communication breakdown or you heard switch in your head, but it was something else from, you know, it was something else called. And you still need to get a stop sometimes. You just gotta figure it out. So, you know, just being engaged throughout the course of 48 minutes, 24 seconds on that shot clock. Cause Boston's gonna make you work. Boston's gonna make you work.
- [42:32]
LeBron James
I don't think there's a best way, I don't think there's a good way to guard Luka Doncic in a pick and roll. And you know, you brought up mixing it up against great players and for the most part Minnesota has, I think game three was probably the most egregious example of mixing it up in all the pick and rolls. Over 20% of the pick and rolls. They switched over 20% of the pick and rolls. They were in drop over 20% of the pick and rolls. They blitzed Luca, by the way, 14 times in his career that's happened where over 20% has seen, you know, all three coverages has seen over 20%. If you had to guess, I'm just, I've not shared the numbers with you. If you had to guess. And they're very consistent Regular season to playoffs. What do you think is the most effective defense? And this is points per chance. So this is like legitimately, who. Doesn't matter who scores? Do the Mavs score? Doesn't matter. If Luca scores points per chance, what do you think is the most effective? By the numbers.
- [43:41]
Producer
By the numbers.
- [43:41]
LeBron James
Starting Luka and pick and roll.
- [43:43]
Producer
By the numbers. I will say blitz. Yeah, I will say blitz. And the reason I say blitz is because I look at the other two and it's not switching because they don't run many small. Small pick and rolls. They. They run a lot of 15 pick and rolls, you know, when it comes to, you know, because the 5 is, you know, usually not as mobile or whatever, not as agile. So they try to bring the five up and they have those two lob threats, which Luka loves. So I know that switching is not it. We saw that at the end of game two in the Western Conference finals. And then dropping pick and rolls. He's just too big. Luka's too big at his frame and his size. You drop his pick and roll, he gets the hostage, puts you in jail. And now you're asking the big to make the decisions on, should I help up? Should I give ground? Soon as you help up. Lob to gaffer Lively or corner kick pass to the three pointer. So I'm guessing I just did. Process of elimination. JJ I will say blitz and place the onus on the five man in the short row to make a play. And let's see if Lively and Gafford and, you know, Dwight Powell played a little bit because of obviously Lively's injury, you know, in game four or game three. So I would say that you live with those chances.
- [45:17]
LeBron James
Okay, so you are correct by the numbers. By the numbers. And actually these numbers are remarkably consistent. Regular season, playoffs versus drop coverage. Points per chance, they get right around 1.10. So 110 points per 100 versus switch, the worst option. You were correct on that as well, right? In between 112 per 100 in the playoffs and 115 versus a switch per 100 in the regular season. In the regular season versus a blitz. And he was the most blitzed player in the NBA. 0.97. So 97 points per 100 per chance against a blitz. And it gets even worse in the playoffs. 0.67. And he is the most blitz player in the playoffs. You know, it's interesting thinking about Drew specifically and his size. I think there's a similarity with Lou Dort that it's not like you're going to have to blitz all the time. The way Lou got into the basketball and fought over screens and used his strength and size, it kind of matched Luka in some ways. Drew's a smaller player, but he has those same physical qualities. So I don't think it's going to be, like, necessary. We got to blitz Luka all the time. I'm sure at times they'll mix it up. Boston, by the way, I want to say I don't have the exact number. I want to say they blitzed around 3% of all pick and rolls this year. They are not a blitz team.
- [46:55]
Producer
No, they're a heavy switch team. Yeah.
- [46:57]
LeBron James
And two in some of that, if it's with the five at the X5, you got Derrick White and Drew Holiday. You trust those guys. Your point, though, I think is the most important thing to me is Luka as a decision maker is one of the best in the game. Even against a blitz, he can make the pass that leads to a shot. I mean, there was one play. He comes off a blitz to his right hand in the high slot and makes a wraparound baseball pass on time, on target to the opposite corner. There's just. There's five guys in the world that can make that pass. But by taking the ball out of his hands, that's not going to be. Every time you blitz that he's going to have the pass that leads to a shot. You are creating a decision for someone else to make. And I think that's the important point.
- [47:46]
Producer
That's the important thing. And I believe that just watching, you know, just watching that end of game, you know, I hate to keep harping on, you know, Rudy, but, you know, them switching that pick and roll at the end of game two, you know, I would have been okay with the switch, but I wouldn't have been okay with not now firing to get the ball out of his hand.
- [48:11]
LeBron James
Switch to blitz.
- [48:12]
Producer
Switch to blitz. You know, kind of. Cause, you know, you get the switch and when Luka sees the big on him, his eyes get like this. So now Luka backs up. He backs up because he's now, okay, I'm about to get into my shit. But as soon as he. As soon as he was about to get into his shit, I would have sent another defender right away. You know, not only does it make, you know, a second guess to Luka, obviously he's seen everything, but it takes time off the clock. And then ultimately, what we all care about is getting the ball in somebody else's hands. I mean, obviously, if it's Kyrie, the next guy, he's just as dangerous as well. But, you know, you take your chance when it comes to Luka versus a five or the rest of the field. Versus the rest of the field.
- [49:03]
LeBron James
Yeah. I mean, if you watch that play again after the screen was set, I think it was lively. They cut down, essentially the middle of the paint.
- [49:13]
Producer
The middle of the paint.
- [49:13]
LeBron James
Jaden McDaniels went with them. And you. There was a split second where I.
- [49:17]
Producer
He's gonna go double.
- [49:18]
LeBron James
He's gonna go double. And he didn't do it. When we played Kawhi in 19, when he was on the Raptors and I was on the Sixers by like game three or four, we were like, this guy, he. He's killing single coverage.
- [49:31]
Producer
Yeah.
- [49:31]
LeBron James
And so rather than like, you know, me showing or James, you know, it's like, let's just switch it. And then as the guy cuts through, just go with him for a second and then switch to blitz. I'm not saying we had a great success with that, but at least it was something we could do. I think at the end of the game, that's something that you have to have in your bag. That is absolutely something you have to have in your bag. I'm like, if Luka's isoed at the top of the key against anybody in the world. Anybody in the world. This is not a knock on. Go Bear. Luka's gonna get a good shot off.
- [50:07]
Producer
Absolutely.
- [50:07]
LeBron James
He's gonna get a makeable shot off.
- [50:09]
Producer
Absolutely. Oh, I got another question for you, jj, Regarding Luka. I have an idea. So I was watching the game. This is game four that just happened. Minnesota's up six, right. Luka is bringing it in transition, and obviously he hits the four point play. I don't. Was it a foul? Okay. I don't know. I can get involved in that. What do you. How do you feel about also fouling up six to keep it a two possession game? I was sitting here watching the game, and I'm like, if I'm up six and they make a three, it becomes a one possession game. But if I foul while he's bringing the ball up and they go to the line, he makes two. It's still a two possession game.
- [51:07]
LeBron James
Well, Joe Missoula did that in game one in overtime. I don't know if you caught it.
- [51:13]
Producer
I don't think I caught it.
- [51:14]
LeBron James
Yes. Okay, so. And I want. I can't even. I think it was T.J. mcConnell. He found somebody. Maybe it was Ty Maybe it was Ty, but they're up 6 in OT.
- [51:24]
Producer
They're bringing Joe Missoula. Guy is a fucking genius, huh?
- [51:27]
LeBron James
Joe Missoula fouled and sent them to the free throw line.
- [51:30]
Producer
No, it is. The more and more I talk to you.
- [51:33]
LeBron James
But by the way, it was the first, first time I'm like, oh, foul up six. I like.
- [51:37]
Producer
The more and more I talk to you, the more and more I like this Joe guy. Cause I'm starting to get some. Yeah, he, yeah, you gotta think outside.
- [51:47]
LeBron James
The box a little bit.
- [51:47]
Producer
You absolutely. And I see why he sits over there and he says absolutely nothing. And he's calm as fuck. He only gets, he only gets a little like when, like he knows they're not playing the right way. Offensively, it's never. Defensively, it's never because of the, you know, the three point attempts. It's never ever if a team makes a run, he's calm. It's only when they don't play the game the right way that he gets a little angry. But I must, I don't know how I missed that. Maybe I was just like, they was up 6 and I probably just stopped watching the game at that point. But I saw it, I was like, Luka's bringing the ball up. And I'm like, get the ball out of his hands or fuck, just fucking foul him. He's shooting 75% from the free throw line anyways. He might miss one. The funny thing is he made the three but missed a free throw. So they were still at 103, 100.
- [52:42]
LeBron James
Last point I want to make on the blitz and then we'll wrap is just Dallas. It's interesting against the blitz, we have talked a lot and I think specifically about when you blitz Steph Curry or you blitz Jamal Murray vs. Jokic and you get the ball to the middle of the floor, you've created the four on three and you get the weak side corner cut for the lob. Dallas really doesn't do that a lot. What they want, they want the corner three. They want the corner three. So Luka's blitzes are one of the ways they create corner threes.
- [53:19]
Producer
Yep.
- [53:19]
LeBron James
Corner threes are the, the, the best shot in basketball in terms of behind the arc. Right. So if you can create spot corner threes, that's a good shot analytically. And how they do that, when they get the ball to lively, when they get the ball to Gafford in the middle, they don't cut against that two on one.
- [53:36]
Producer
They do not.
- [53:37]
LeBron James
And so, you know I'm just. If they. I don't know that they blitz. But the other point is what Luca does. And like Derek Jones Jr. Got one. I think it was in Game 2, from the right corner, Luca against the drop. If you're in a shift against him out of the corner, he'll go up to shoot.
- [53:54]
Producer
Late pass, late pass, right.
- [53:57]
LeBron James
So, yeah, that, that Dallas, because this is going to be a math. There's going to be a math game to this. Don't tease me on this. Please don't tease me on this. It's a real thing. Can Dallas create enough threes against Boston? That's going to be important. And one of the ways they create threes is against the blitz by getting the ball to the corner.
- [54:19]
Producer
Yep. And I think that's why Boston defends the way they defend, to take away the three. And it's going to be interesting to see, like you said, it's going to be. And you would think that, you know, with Dallas ability to have the athleticism of P.J. washington and especially Derrick Jones, that they would get a little bit more corner cuts for lobs and dunks. You know, maybe not as lobs because, you know, you don't want Gafford or Lively throwing lobs, but they can make bounce passes and they can make some passes on time, on target, but they want to create and generate threes. That's what our league is about. So that, you know, that's a great point, JJ and the fact that that's. We're going to have to see how will Dallas create enough three point shots according to how Boston defends throughout the course of the season.
- [55:08]
LeBron James
I lied. I have one more question and one more. No, it's only because Jason hit me today and he's like, hey, I want you to ask LeBron what, what his favorite thing about. What is his favorite thing about X player? You know, he's like, I'm always like, what's my favorite thing about Luka? And he named some random thing that Luca did, which is like, it happens once again, like, whatever. No, I'm just kidding, Jason. The one guy we haven't talked about, by the way, is Kyrie Irving. And to me, he's like the ultimate sort of X factor in all of this. Because when he has it going, it takes Dallas to a whole nother level. And it also, it offsets Luca. And we've seen it in the playoffs. It offsets Luka not being at his best. It offsets a bad shooting performance. It offsets a great defensive performance against Him?
- [56:03]
Producer
Yep.
- [56:04]
LeBron James
If Kyrie has it going.
- [56:05]
Producer
Yep.
- [56:06]
LeBron James
So with Kyrie, what is your favorite thing about Kyrie the basketball player?
- [56:13]
Producer
I. Listen. I will call Kyrie the Wizard all the time. Like, all the time. Like, there was nothing on the basketball floor that Kyrie couldn't do. And sitting here watching it, you know, I'm like. I'm playing, like, so fucking happy and so proud, and to watch him continue his growth or whatever the case may be. And at the same time, I'm so fucking mad at the same time that I am not his running mate anymore. So I'm like. I just remember those times and to. Back to what you were saying, jj. Like, he. To have a guy like Kyrie Irving as the ultimate wild card, that's like having a. It's like having a draw four in your hand every time someone deals you cars in uno. Like, every single time. Because he has the ability to. Like you said, I saw him in game one, West Conference Finals. Game one. You know, I think up until that point, I don't know the stat because I'm not writing down the stats, and I don't call the games like you guys, but I think Kyrie was only averaging, like, 8 points in the first half. Like, in the second round of the playoffs, you know, he was getting it 16 to 20 in the second half, but in the first half of games, you know, he wasn't.
- [57:37]
LeBron James
It was like six to eight. Yeah, I don't think it was 16, you know?
- [57:40]
Producer
And you, like, okay, you know. You know you're gonna have Kyrie in the fourth, but I need you sometimes in the first half, too, brother. But, like, what he did in game one, it was like, at a Western Conference finals, you was like. That was like, oh, shit. Dallas may be able to not only win the Western Conference Finals, they might be able to win the whole thing because of that wild card. I have so many words to praise Kyrie that I end up with absolutely none, because it's just. It's so. He's the most gifted player the NBA has ever seen. He has the best gifts I've ever seen of any NBA player. I've never seen a guy in my NBA life that feels better at times shooting with his offhand than he does with his. With his primary hand. If Kyrie's off in a game with his right hand, he will literally go exclusively to his left hand. I've never seen nothing like that. The shot. One thing I'm thinking the shot that he made versus Denver towards the regular end of the regular season, On Joker. Yep. It's one of the most ridiculous shots I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, he's just that special.
- [59:05]
LeBron James
I said this in the first round. Closeout game. I think it was the closeout game. He had PJ ISO'd right in front of the Dallas bench.
- [59:15]
Producer
Oh, my goodness.
- [59:16]
LeBron James
And he go. And he went to his dribble package, and he hit him with the left to right and then did the delay gather with his footwork to create the separation shot. It. Ball goes in. He doesn't see it go in. He kind of just reacts to his, you know, his teammates and the crowd. I'm not sure P.J. tucker could have played better defense. And I made the comment on air, and I. And I think I. I think. I mean, this. I'm not sure there's ever been a player that's more aesthetically pleasing when he has it going like it's. His game is beautiful.
- [59:51]
Producer
Yes.
- [59:51]
LeBron James
You know what I'm saying? It's.
- [59:52]
Producer
It's.
- [59:52]
LeBron James
It's. He always talks about. He's. He's. You know, basketball players are artists. He's an artist on the court. And I gotta be honest, like, it's not invalid. I'm sometimes like, yeah, this. This. This guy's an artist. You called him a wizard. I'll call him an artist. It's there.
- [60:06]
Producer
Absolutely. And by the way, we. We're both saying the exact same thing, and he's just. He's remarkable.
- [60:14]
LeBron James
Yeah. Always good catching up. Appreciate it.
- [60:17]
Producer
Always. Always. All right. All right.
- [60:22]
LeBron James
That shot from jj. What the hell?
- [60:25]
Producer
Yeah.
- [60:26]
LeBron James
What do you say me for? What am I. Yeah.
- [60:29]
Producer
Yeah. What do you say me for? Which. What's your favorite thing about Luca?
- [60:35]
LeBron James
You're such a Luca Homer. That's all it comes down to.
- [60:37]
Producer
Oh, no.
- [60:37]
LeBron James
Really? What gave that away? Hey, guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching Mind the Game podcast.
- [60:56]
JJ Redick
If you like it, please hit that subscribe button.
- [60:58]
LeBron James
Thank you.