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- [00:01]
A
All right. Mind the game episode. Who knows? Yeah. Who knows when?
- [00:05]
B
By the way, that's a good thing, right? We don't know.
- [00:07]
A
Just shoot us.
- [00:09]
B
We just go, that's a good thing.
- [00:10]
A
I think we're all good. Is everybody all set? Sounds good. Okay. Please interrupt me if anything comes up. Yes, sir.
- [00:16]
B
All phones on do not disturb except me and Steve's. Yeah, right, me and Steve.
- [00:21]
A
I was be buzzing the whole.
- [00:32]
B
Foreign.
- [00:38]
A
Welcome back to Mind the Game, brought to you by Uninterrupted and Wondery. In this episode, we're going to talk about the playoffs and what trends we're noticing. So three big ones that jumped out were the physicality and refereeing, the pick on game. And also zone defenses, junk defenses, how teams are trying to slow others down and give them a second look. We also wade into the history of momentum and some playoff experiences between both LeBron and I, and in particular LeBron's comeback with the Cleveland Cavaliers versus the Golden State warriors from a 3:1 deficit, a historic final series, and some incredible storytelling. So thanks for joining. Hope you enjoy. Please, like, comment and subscribe. I thought it'd be good to just kind of take a peek at what we're seeing in the playoffs. Like, big picture. Okay, Big picture. You know, instead of going through every series, we'll touch on them through this prism. So for me, like, three things I want to discuss when we take our time on each of them is the physicality and refereeing, how that changes in the playoffs and it makes a big difference. Pick on game. So how that leads to adjustments, cat and mouse matchups, spacing zone, and then. And the last one is zone. So how these are linked, how they play a part in each other. We're seeing more zone, but we're also seeing more men. That looks like zone. Yeah, for sure, you know, so let's start with the physicality. I mean, one thing is, like, the playoffs are always gonna be more physical, but I think they're generally the last 10, 15 years. It's a big contrast from regular season of the playoffs.
- [02:16]
B
Yeah. The first thing I want to say to that is, like, if they're gonna allow it to be as physical as it is, you gotta give us a little time to prepare for it.
- [02:26]
A
So, like post All Star break, something like that.
- [02:29]
B
I mean, post all Star break is usually like 30 games left. So maybe like maybe 12 to 15 games left in a regular season. Okay. Like a month. Give us a month to prepare for it. Because it goes from 0 to 100. It goes from us to Be able to body check, you know, no body check. No hand checking. No. No pushing a guy off they spot. No. No rerouting guys at all.
- [02:55]
A
Right.
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B
For eight, nine months and then. Or for six, six and a half, seven months, and then two months straight, have at it, like straight up, just no holds barred. And, you know, it's fun.
- [03:10]
A
Yeah. I don't think either of us have a problem with it.
- [03:12]
B
We don't have a problem with it.
- [03:13]
A
It's just a contrast.
- [03:14]
B
It's just a contrast, you know, of not being able to get into. Yeah, it's definitely over the last, like, you know, like you said, 10, 15 years, the game. They've allowed us to do it, and it's fun. I personally wish we could do it all year, but also have the body makeup for it to do it all year, too. So it wouldn't be beneficial to the product to do, you know, run a marathon. I mean, run a sprint during a marathon.
- [03:40]
A
That's a great question. That almost draws me out of the discussion into, like, where are we as a game? Right. Like, we're playing faster pace and space. And part of that is because in the regular season and the playoffs, too, you know, it is beneficial to play quicker, to spread the floor. But it is a big contrast, you know, And I think sometimes people say, well, the numbers, numerically, the playoffs aren't that much different than the regular season. But I think when you're out there on the floor, it's different.
- [04:06]
B
Yeah, when you're out there on the floor, it's different. It feels different. You know, it's different. You know, the things that you're able to get away with, you can't get away with once the postseason start. And like I said, I love it. It comes down to just making basketball plays. You know, it's not much foul baiting. It's not much, you know, trying to trick the referees. It's just like, how can we execute? Get a bucket, get a stop on the other end.
- [04:32]
A
Right.
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B
And that's the true essence of the game.
- [04:36]
A
Another way, the true essence of basketball is to adjust.
- [04:39]
B
Yeah, right.
- [04:39]
A
Adapt, adjust. But I think that is one thing that's good about it is it takes the foul baiting out of the. You know, it's. You're less likely to get the head snap foul. You're less likely to get, you know, some of these calls that people bait the referees into, they're kind of like, get up and play. I like that.
- [04:55]
B
Yeah, I like it, too.
- [04:56]
A
But I do think. I don't necessarily want to see the whole regular season be played like that.
- [05:01]
B
No, as well. I mean, our fans already are, you know, complaining about things and I would agree with that. I would not want to see the two month, you know, way we officiate the game or allow us to play the game for from, you know, from October to mid April. I don't think that would be.
- [05:22]
A
And I mean it all plays into the way the game's played. Right. It all plays into the way the game's played. But what's been cool about it is also to see like, you know, like Jalen Brunson and Cat get stops or be more reliable at the end of game two in Boston. Right. Because they're more physical. They're allowed to get away with a little more the regular season right away foul. They're either shoot, they're in the bonus or take it on the side. Allowing them to bump, use the physicality, things like that. So it goes both ways a little bit. Right. Like, you know, in the regular season you bring up the, the non defender quote, unquote, and they can't touch, they can't bump, they can't foul. Now they're allowing to let them play a little bit. So it's actually made I think, a more competitive game.
- [05:59]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [06:00]
A
In many ways.
- [06:00]
B
Absolutely. I mean, listen, you, you, you, you take the seeding out. You take the seeding in a regular, you completely take it out, you know, and you have two teams that's going to. And obviously, you know, round one is always challenging for the eighth seed or the lower seed or whatever the case may be. Unless you have that, that team that it doesn't matter if it's regular season or post season and if I'm more physical and I have the athleticism and I have the players that can go down and make things happen, you know, the seeding doesn't.
- [06:30]
A
Right. Well, it gives the lower seated a way to kind of junk it up a little bit. Yeah. Take the gap between the two teams out. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
- [06:40]
B
I mean, we're seeing it now where Indiana is able to close the gap, you know. You know, you can close the gap.
- [06:46]
A
They're smashing the gap right now, you know.
- [06:48]
B
Yeah, they're smashing the gap. You're right. They're smashing the gap right now, you know, being up, you know, what they are in the series, you know, that is a byproduct of that for sure.
- [06:56]
A
Yeah. And then I guess, you know, I think goes back to our conversation around offense and you know, when teams are allowed to Play that physical, you know, that's why we, that's another reason why we don't run a lot of actions, right? Because you just can't run the actions with a fluidity that creates advantages.
- [07:12]
B
And now you're late in the shot clock.
- [07:14]
A
Late in the shot clock.
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B
You know, you got to get into money, time or whatever your call is to throw. Casting up shots, that's not going to be beneficial to you.
- [07:22]
A
Which, which leads a lot to the pick on game. Right? It's simple. Let's get to our spots, let's get space, let's try to bring up the weakest defender. Let's try to ISO here instead of, you know, the nightmare scenario which we see guys have to do because the defense is so physical, is fight for 15 seconds to try to get that best defender off. Your best creator can't get him off, right? And then he goes ISO anyways. So he's been battling for 20 seconds just to get an ISO that he could have got in the first few seconds.
- [07:49]
B
Here comes a step back mid range too.
- [07:51]
A
And that's a big difference for me. Right? And that's a big difference from regular season and postseason. You know, I think you're going to get called a lot more fighting through these screens, getting up into people. So you do get the matchup. You want a lot more in the regular season than the playoffs. That's why I think it's, it's fun to see because people are now competing on a different level.
- [08:09]
B
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, it's something to, there's a, there's an end game. You know, there's something to really like. You know, obviously you're building up habits, you're building up everything throughout the regular season and you, in order to be a great team, you have to build those things up throughout the course. And I'm never ever going to sit here and say that the regular season doesn't matter because it absolutely freaking does. Like, you have to build out those habits throughout the course of the season. But from a viewership standpoint and from a competitive standpoint, to be able to get to the post season and be able just to have that, you know, this is time, right? You know, this is time. Like this is the, this is the sprint, you know, there's the 100 meter yard dash and we get into it right now, you know, so it's definitely. These games have been amazing, like you said, you know, to have, you know, three teams at one point you know, win the road, all road games in the postseason, you Had New York, you had Indiana and Denver beat. Okay, yeah, Denver beat ok.
- [09:10]
A
Stolen State with Steph getting hurt still.
- [09:13]
B
Like, you know, it was just, just great basketball right now.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, I mean the physicality is one thing, the three point variance, you know, there's some numbers around like I think so far this playoffs, if a team took one more three than the other team, they're like 12 and nine winning. So I know it's a small sample that's still great. And then there's another one that like, I think from 2022 till today, you know, the team that makes one more three has like a 60 winning record or something. So the three point variance has changed what home court advantage means. So when you add some of these things like three court point variance, refereeing, physicality, the game really changes and it does, it comes down to like, we're always making micro adjustments. You know, you're trying to give yourself slight advantage. Such a big part of just competitiveness.
- [10:01]
B
Well, I mean, shit, that's why you see Boston go 12 for 50 and game two die by the sword. Okay. We're going to do the same thing in game three in New York. And then they end up, I think hitting like nine or ten threes in the first half, you know, and just break open that game, you know, it's just. They're going to live by it and die by it for sure.
- [10:22]
A
Yeah. And these comebacks, I mean we've already seen Indy have them. We've seen obviously the Knicks have them. So it's not just the road team winning, it's the nature they're winning.
- [10:31]
B
You're never out of a game. The three point barrage that has gotten to the point in our game, you're never out of a game. Out of a game. You know, you gotta get to being up 30 is not. You gotta get to 35, 40.
- [10:47]
A
Right, right.
- [10:48]
B
You know, cause if you up 30 at halftime and then, yeah, I'd say.
- [10:50]
A
Like mid 20s, you gotta get 26 or it's still on the table.
- [10:55]
B
I think mid 30s, man. Maybe if I'm up 26 at halftime and we get a quick maybe boom, like at the half.
- [11:01]
A
Yeah, it's back to 17, I'm 26.
- [11:03]
B
Mid third, I feel pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I feel pretty good. Yeah, I feel pretty good.
- [11:07]
A
I mean that's. I still think that's great. Right? That's great. Like the game. Because you know we have seen like, we've seen some amazing games. You know, you've seen just all out wars out there and then you see games where they're blowouts.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah.
- [11:18]
A
And then we've seen a lot of blowouts that get reeled back in. And now you're playing that momentum game. How do you feel about, like, hot hand momentum? You know, analytics people, they don't really believe in momentum. Right. They don't believe in hot hand. There's like, every shot has the same value.
- [11:33]
B
Yeah, I disagree.
- [11:34]
A
Me, too.
- [11:35]
B
Me and the analytics department, we're not, like, great friends, you know?
- [11:39]
A
Well, one reason. Well, one reason in their defense is that they're basing their whole career on empirical data. So they have in. For them to do it.
- [11:48]
B
This is what they do.
- [11:49]
A
But on the court, you feel it.
- [11:51]
B
The crowd feels it. There's a feeling on the court that there's nobody that's not on the court could ever understand, you know, and there's momentum plays and momentum shots. That does not show up in the analytic data. You know, there's certain. You know, you able to. It's a certain. The Anthony Edwards dunk, last game over Kavon Looney is just a different momentum play, you know? You know, in game one, the Draymond threes that he was making in game one in Minnesota is a different momentum shot, for sure than if somebody else made it quit the shot, you know? Okay. But it's. It's certain passes. There's certain. You know, the way you take a charge, the way you. The extra. The hockey assist, which doesn't show up in analytics. Hockey assist doesn't. They don't track those. And maybe they are.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah.
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B
But it's just a certain feel that. The ball, the court, the crowd, the energy you out there, you know, oh, shit. That was a momentum play. And if we get one more on there, I started thinking about, what was the game? NBA Jam. When you catch fire, he's on fire. Boom, boom, boom, boom. You start seeing that happen. The game, you see it changing right in front of your eyes. And sometimes you don't even feel, as a card player and someone who plays, you know, gambles a little bit sometimes you don't see the table turn, and hopefully you're on the other side. When you're able to see it, you don't want to be the last one to find out. You do not want to be the last one to find out when the table is turned. And those are things that just don't show up in analytic data.
- [13:40]
A
Yeah, I mean, the analytics is great. I value it. I know you value your part. It's important, but it's meant to be. Cold. Right. But we're human beings. Right. It doesn't account for chemistry. It doesn't necessarily account for, like, a match of five guys on the floor all the time and, you know, all the different things that are between the numbers. So I think it's great, but it's always going to be just a part of the puzzle.
- [14:01]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [14:02]
A
So I think that. I think momentum, for me, is always something that as a player, you can feel, you can ride, and you also are trying to obviously prevent.
- [14:10]
B
And you also have to. I mean, shit, you have to have the right personnel to fit the data, too. I understand that, you know, more threes, you know, you know, layups, all that stuff, but, you know, there's certain coaches and certain, you know, rosters that doesn't always fit the. The criteria and. But they're trying to meet. Meet it because they've hired this department. Sure. And you get out there and there's times where I'll be on the floor and I'm. There's teams that's out there doing certain things or certain guys that's out there that's doing things that I know doesn't benefit his game, you know, so is there. Is there a line where it's like, it's not benefit to where he is today, but this is what he has to do because that's what they're telling him to do. And now this individual is, look, not looking as good as he should look.
- [15:00]
A
Yeah, that's, I think, a part of teams that aren't quite there yet, you know, because the analytics informs your scouting, it informs your player development. You're trying to create a profile of player that fits into a profile system of players playing. You know, another way that I think momentum is interesting is in the prevent defense, like, so the Boston example, you know, maybe it's not the right word, but they're up 20 and now they're playing not to lose. Yeah, we're going to file, and the other team is. We got nothing to lose. We already lost this game. So they're coming at you with everything they have, and things flip fast, right?
- [15:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, I. I was watching game three, obviously, in the Garden, and Boston was, you know, dominating that game. I think they were up 25, maybe 28 in the third quarter. Mitchell Robinson's on the court.
- [15:46]
A
Right.
- [15:46]
B
They just started following. Yeah, they just started following him. Yeah, Put them to the line. We're not going to give you any momentum.
- [15:52]
A
Can't make threes.
- [15:53]
B
We're not going to allow Jalen Brunson to get catch a little rhythm because you know, and we all know you lose one game, okay, that's one game. You lose by 50, you lose by one, right? Still hurts. But the one thing from one game to the next game that can happen is a guy can build some momentum. He sees the ball goes in.
- [16:09]
A
Yeah. Changes everything.
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B
It changes everything. Now he's feeling good about his shot that he maybe wasn't feeling good up until that point, you know, and just like you said, on the contrary, when you, you getting your ass whooped, you're just trying to, you're doing anything to try to get back into it, you know. So, you know, Boston, they, they do a good job of like either, you know, up 28 or shit, if I'm up 6.
- [16:32]
A
They're not afraid to junk it up too.
- [16:34]
B
To junk it up too. They always keep the pedal to the ground.
- [16:45]
A
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- [18:01]
B
Really?
- [18:01]
A
He was Nelly's assistant when I was in Dallas and always loved our chats. And one of the things he said to me was that the best man to man defenses feel like a zone and the best zones feel like a man to man. I think that's never been truer than right now. Whether it's the 3, 2 we've seen Cleveland play or put Mobley at the top or some of the other zones we've seen coming here or just these hybrid man zones where I feel at times Denver's just putting a floater towards the middle of the floor so Shay doesn't have space.
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B
Right.
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A
Things like that, you guys.
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B
Yeah, we were doing. Yeah, you guys were zoned. It looked like zone, but you guys.
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A
Out of the corner, you still have your matchup, but you're saying, go ahead and throw it there. We'll be high hands, we'll make you throw it. We'll stun and get back. You know, we're seeing so much more of that.
- [18:45]
B
Miami's notorious all year round. They're damn good with his zone changing.
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A
And I think that's a great point because I think I see zone becoming a part of it. It's a little bit like, you know, we're playing pick on. Now we're getting to spacing. What's our spacing package? Then? Teams got really clever about the spacing, so we start cutting.
- [19:02]
B
Yeah.
- [19:02]
A
Now you're seeing teams cutting from the baseline or cutting from the slab, whatever it may be. So I think, you know, the next iteration may be not just throwing in some zone or some man zone hybrid, but also multiple zones. Right. So, for example, if we're playing a 3, 2 out high to take it out of the initiator's hand. Well, when they put the initiator in the corner against zone, now he's thrown over the top and he's attacking the center, who's got to run out to the corner. So I think then they're going to have. I think we're going to start seeing teams evolve and play multiple zones or two looks.
- [19:30]
B
Yeah.
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A
What's your thoughts on this whole zone, man? Because I think it's definitely become a bigger part of what we're doing. Whether it's just the pack, the paintings that look like zone in the gap, shrinking the floor, or they're actually playing zone.
- [19:41]
B
Well, I mean, the. The whole. The whole nuance and the whole mind behind playing zone early on was to just break the rhythm. Okay. This offensive team, they're in too great of a rhythm versus the man. We're trying everything we can do as far as pick a roll coverage, ISO coverage, all these coverages, and they just have a rhythm. So the best thing to do, okay, just drop into a zone, break the rhythm. You can get them out of this action, maybe get them out of this action, or just. It's not even about the action. When you come down and you see a zone, the mind now you're starting.
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A
To, like, think instead of move.
- [20:14]
B
Think instead of think instead of move. Yeah. It doesn't become it doesn't become. Instead of just, you know, just going and reacting to whatever happens now, it becomes a thinking game. And we, we know that all five guys on the floor being the thinking game is not suitable for them.
- [20:29]
A
Right, Right.
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B
You know, so I think it's a great, I think it's a great piece to have in your package to be able to go to something where you can just change the momentum, change the, the landscape of what it looks like, you know, out on the floor. And that could be, like you said, a three two. You know, you look at Cleveland having the defensive player of the year, Mobley, who was voted this year at the top of the key, he's seven foot with all that long wingspan. To be able to change that, you know, Miami does that sometimes with Bam at the top, you know. You know, I think it just changes the landscape of teams and, you know, it's great. Or just having a roamer, like you said, you know, you have Denver being able to just, you know, Shade brings in a lot of pick and rolls and wants to get, you know, maybe Christian Braun off of him or Russ off of him or whatever the case may be. But then those guys roll out and those guys and Russ or Chris, just stay, just stay right there.
- [21:19]
A
Stand in the middle of the floor.
- [21:20]
B
Stand in the middle of the floor and I'm talking to you. Send him right or I'm on the other side. Send them left. Send them left. I'm right here. You know, I just think it's, it's really chess.
- [21:30]
A
Yeah.
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B
Especially right now. I know your sets. You know my sets. I know your personnel. You know my personnel. I know what you like to do, the cons, the pros. I know if you heavy going right, I know if you heavy going left, I know if you come to a two foot jump stop in a lane, which way you like to pivot, you know, I know if you drive baseline, how you like all of that stuff. When it comes to guys like myself, when it comes to guys like yourself, everything is dialed in. So I think coaches with the zone is just trying to make you just come down the court and just be like. And that's all you need. That's all you need.
- [22:09]
A
Conversely, like, I think it's trending a little more. Like we're going to see more zones or see more like that hybrid zone, but it's got it. I think we're going to see more of it, I think we're seeing more variance in it, but I don't think we're going to see someone Play zone. Like always play zone. Because back to your initial point, we get too comfortable, people understand it, they figure it out, it's over. But do you think there's going to be more zone looks, more different zones, multiple zones from teams?
- [22:36]
B
Listen, what's the one thing we talked about earlier in this conversation? Our league is a copycat league, right?
- [22:40]
A
Right.
- [22:42]
B
And if a team is. If a team that is historically not good in man to man defense, then it's something that will be introduced. I think more teams are practicing it. Even if I could, I can say that I believe more teams are practicing it, even if they never show it.
- [23:03]
A
In a game, thinking about it.
- [23:05]
B
But they're thinking about it, you know, And I would say that I could see it happening more, you know, over the next few years, you know, more teams coming out and, you know, like you play Miami, they will literally start the game and fall into a zone.
- [23:20]
A
Just make you think, you know, and.
- [23:22]
B
They just making you think. And they're very active in their zone. They have great principles. You can. Until they work on it. They're basically. But more importantly, they just trying to make you think, you know, instead of just read and react. And they want you to think about what you want to do, who you put guys in right positions and places.
- [23:36]
A
Because it's led to this in a way. Because switching defense essentially is not far from a zone, right?
- [23:43]
B
It's not.
- [23:43]
A
It's not. You're gonna switch everything in a zone anyways. So once you start switching and teams get kind of, you know, one dimensional, we're just bringing up the weakest defender and you're switching that. And then what? Okay, now, okay, they got the matchup they want, but guess what, right? You know, we're gonna zone.
- [23:57]
B
You still have the dribble drive, you still have to punch the gaps, flood. You have to flood. You know, it's a zone. You know, Peyton is a zone just in the low post. You know, all those, all those type of things is still a zone. And I think more teams will definitely. Well, why not, right?
- [24:13]
A
Exactly.
- [24:14]
B
Why not? There's no reason for you not to have that in your package, especially the game comes to win or loser.
- [24:21]
A
You know, it's one of those things like offense, like, you know, we run this play, let's run it to death if it's working right the zone. But at minimum it's a change up like you said. So I think there's going to be more risk taken because at minimum you can get out of it. And you tried to throw something in there, you know, in their mind, and make them think, maximum. You found something. But I think now teams are going to try different things, different zones, different looks, because we've already trended that way, I think, in so many different. Because you got to fit to your personnel.
- [24:48]
B
Yeah.
- [24:48]
A
You got to fit to your matchups, too.
- [24:50]
B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
I remember. I remember seeing SPO in the bubble play some zones where he hid the weakest of the smallest defenders in the corners. He forced. He had two athletes up top and he forced the ball into the middle. And Bam's kind of sitting in the middle, like just under the nail, like just making up random stuff where that. Now you're controlling.
- [25:09]
B
Yeah.
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A
You're not reacting, you're controlling. I think. I mean, obviously he's been great at innovating and doing different things, but I think those types of things where you say, hey, look, we can't do nothing with this, but we could force them.
- [25:22]
B
To play this way and control that.
- [25:23]
A
Right. And control this. So I'm interested to see how much more of that we see in these playoffs. But it's also fun to see teams take risks because the lead, not just the initiators, are so great, but also teams are so used to playing that way that now you make him get rid of it early to someone. Am I. Do I now, Do I play or do I wait and try to get it back?
- [25:43]
B
To try to get it back to it? Yeah, yeah.
- [25:45]
A
Stop teams in their tracks a little bit or just throwing up their rhythms. Been really effective. There were some moments, I think it was Ant that was just shoving you in the.
- [25:53]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [25:54]
A
Your first round series. It's interesting, right? Because we love physicality. Where's the line sometimes and where. That's the one part that is difficult to understand. Certain matchups also, it's difficult to referee people like you, Nicola. Cause you're so physical that sometimes, like. I can handle it.
- [26:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, if that's how we're gonna play and that's how we're gonna allow it to be played, then I don't mind it. I don't mind it. Now. It needs to be that on both ends, you know, it needs to be that on both ends. You know, it was never explained to me. Like, I'm trying to run down the court and Ant is giving me like the two hand. I'm beyond five yards. If this is the NFL, that would even be. It would still be a penalty. I was beyond five yards in my route running. But it was fun. It was competitive. You definitely Wondering, like, okay, to your point, like, okay, is this. What line are we crossing? Or is there not a line at all, you know? Cause then you go through the lane, you know, and a guy does like this, and you deal like this and it. But we're in an open court at half court, and he's doing like, this or anybody, you know, doing that, and they don't call it. So it's like, where's the line, you know, being drawn? But, yeah, the physicality, I mean, that's what we preached on there. Like, it's different, you know, you're not getting away with that at all, right? It's 0% chance you're getting away with any of that in the regular season. In the playoffs, there's a possible chance. You can. And let's try it and see what happens. Let's try it and see what happens, you know? And, you know, the same could go for you when, you know, I'm thinking, like, was there anybody for you? Like, when the post season started, you knew, you know, oh, shit. There's gonna be a totally different feeling.
- [27:44]
A
Than the regular season, as, you know, they're always gonna try to get more physical and try to create an advantage, right?
- [27:48]
B
For sure.
- [27:48]
A
I remember, like, sometimes when you're talking about, like, the line and not knowing where it is, and, like, you just gotta. You gotta ride it. You can't. You can't get frustrated. I remember, like, Bruce Bowen, like, knee and me and the balls, like, out by center, like, right, what the refs are like, play. You know, that kind of stuff like that. We're like, wait, what's the line here? Or like, you got the ball out of center and you just whack in your hand. You're off arm just literally whacking it. And refs are like, play. Like, it's not affecting you right now. And it's like, okay, but what does that lead to, right? So I think sometimes, like, I respect it, like, get away with what you can get away with, you know, and try to, you know, slow you down, throw you off, maybe just frustrate you, whatever it is, go. Like, I love that, you know, people trying to play the game give themselves advantage to win. But it is funny in the playoffs. So sometimes, like, you're like, in what world, right? Is that a legal basketball game? Right? You know, and then on the other hand, you know, I think it frustrates me sometimes, like, how we want to micro investigate scenarios, and maybe it's because it's Draymond, but sometimes, like, there was A play where, you know, I can't remember who it was, but, like, he went over top of someone on the floor in Houston. I can't remember who it was, but it was. And his foot dragged and kind of caught him, you know, on the neck or something on the way down. And it's like, look, I know people can make the argument that Draymond knows what he's doing, but on the other hand, I'm also like, it didn't hurt. Like, let's get up. Let's take the ball out of bounds. Instead of, like, you know, forensically, like, looking at the Zapruder film and trying to figure out who's.
- [29:19]
B
It goes back to the. I don't know. I know this is kind of off topic, but there was a piece of camera work in the post season of our game in Minnesota that I have never. The Eye in the sky camp in my fucking life.
- [29:34]
A
I didn't know that existed. You were talking about the strip on Ant. Yes.
- [29:40]
B
I've never seen that computer work in my life.
- [29:44]
A
I would love to know if they took all the usual cameras, which I'm sure there's like, 20, and could find the file.
- [29:51]
B
Where the fuck did that camera?
- [29:53]
A
I've never seen it because it also. It didn't look like it was in hd. It was like Forensic Files type shit.
- [29:59]
B
It was like, Forensic Files camera. Like, I was like, what the fuck is this?
- [30:03]
A
Right?
- [30:03]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [30:04]
A
That was interesting. But, like, that's the one part. And I get it. It's difficult, but like, some of this, like, forensic deep dive stuff, like. Like the example the other night with Mahen, now I. You know, he. He punched him, I guess, but, like, I didn't. I didn't. Look. I. Maybe it was a closed fist, but he didn't swing.
- [30:22]
B
Yeah, but. Yeah, but who knows if it was like, you know, like a little jet, you know, like. Well, that mean Lance Stevenson should have been kicked out of every game that we played in in the 201112 playoffs.
- [30:33]
A
The right, Ike. I mean, you know, like, there's a thing. It's like, I love you.
- [30:38]
B
Born Ready, by the way. You were out of your mind.
- [30:42]
A
But it's kind of like, you know, semantics. Like, he literally went like this, right? And we're like, that's it. He's kicked out of the game. Whereas someone could, like, line someone up and throw a shoulder through them from, you know, as fast as they can from 10 yards away, and it's like, no, but that's more of a basketball move. It's like, you know what I mean? Like, that's exactly what you mean. Take it out. Let's keep playing, right? And I know there's a thing about escalating, but I think it almost makes things escalate more because now it's personal. We're talking about it. We've micromanaged the situation, so sometimes I get a little bit frustrated. We let stuff go in the flow of a game and then it's like this one little weird thing happens and it's like, we gotta get this right and the whole world disagrees. And now we're talking about something that did not need to be a thing.
- [31:24]
B
That's when they start. Everybody's like, this is like, take it.
- [31:28]
A
Out on the side. Let's keep playing. You know what I love more than the perfect assist? The perfect story. And I've got just the one for you. Audible knows that there's no greater thrill out there than yours. And Audible's gripping new original that'll have you right on the edge of your seat. Jon Hamm stars as Jack Bergen in the Big Fix, A Jack Bergen mystery. Think you know the story of Dodger Stadium? Think again. This noir thriller follows Jack, an ex FBI agent brought back into the game by an old flame to investigate a murder case. That's not what it seems. What starts as a simple homicide investigation unravels into a complex web of conspiracy surrounding a Mexican American community and the construction of Dodger Stadium. Trust me, this one's a game changer. Featuring an all star cast including Ana de La Reguera, Omar Epps and Aaliyah Shawkat. With a special appearance from John Slattery. From the brilliant mind of John Mankiewicz and the director Aaron Lipstad comes a story that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Like any great play, timing is everything. And now's the time to listen. Go to audible.com thebigfix and listen. Now that's audible.com thebigfix no team's ever come back from a 30 deficit. But I actually almost had that experience. I was playing in Dallas. We went 30 up on Portland in the playoffs and had to win game seven at home to win the series. So, like, that was an example of like momentum completely flipping, you know, fortunately in the NBA, it's hard to win four in a row, you know, especially if you're a team that is good enough to win three in a row. But that feeling of the other team now having belief, confidence, you go from beating them three in a row and thinking this is a matter of time. They might get one to. All of a sudden, they get one, they get two. Now your backs are against the wall. They get three, and they're feeling like they're going to do this. They're going to be the first team to ever do this. And the power that they feel is really what creates the momentum. And conversely, as a team that's under that avalanche, you know, you're trying to pick the pieces up. Like, hold on, let's. Let's grab onto some solid footing here. Let's reset. Let's find our identity again and keep things simple and try to go out and win a basketball game, because we can't be able to do it for a week. So I do think those experiences show that, like, on the floor, momentum is a real thing. You've had a famous 31 comeback. We came back down 31 with the Suns against the Lakers.
- [34:07]
B
Against the Lakers.
- [34:08]
A
Yeah. Yep. Which was a wild series, but, like, give me your take. That was.
- [34:13]
B
That was.
- [34:13]
A
Got to be the most famous.
- [34:14]
B
Absolutely. You know, it's fun, like, before we even. To get to the 2016, 31 comeback. Like in 2015 in the finals when Kyrie and Kevin was hurt, we went up 2:1 in that series in the finals. And, you know, the momentum of, like, feeling that feeling of being up 21 and two games away from winning the championship was like, oh, shit.
- [34:39]
A
I don't know what that's. Like.
- [34:43]
B
We can do this. Like, you had that feeling like, we can do this, and then you. We lose three straight, you know, and in game four, this is when. This is when. When Draymond started at the five and Iguodala started at the four, and it changed the whole landscape of the game. You started, they played with more pace, more speed. You know, they tied up 2:2 and, like, the momentum, we didn't have the ability to kind of change what we wanted to do. And they did. They had something in their back pocket that we didn't know that existed.
- [35:19]
A
Did you ever go to the five defensively in that series, or did you just not?
- [35:22]
B
I don't think in 2015 I did. I would have to go back and look, but I don't think. I think they caught us off guard and rode that wave.
- [35:29]
A
And remind me, did Kevin and Kai start the series? Kyrie was out.
- [35:34]
B
Kyrie got hurt. Game 1 in overtime, and Kevin got hurt. And the second round, I believe, versus Boston, separated shoulder out.
- [35:43]
A
Right. I mean, that's impressive right there. To be up 2 1.
- [35:47]
B
Yes.
- [35:48]
A
Right?
- [35:48]
B
Yes.
- [35:49]
A
But also Shows like they went to the future.
- [35:53]
B
They went to the future, right?
- [35:54]
A
That was like the first. I mean, we played small with the Mario the 5, but they went super small and maybe had more depth. Guys like IG living make more plays. But it's interesting in series when you can a team find something.
- [36:06]
B
Yeah, and they found something, man. And. And it just, you know, they found something. They was able to go three straight. They went in four, two. And it was like you felt the momentum just shift in that game four. Like they found something. It was something that we couldn't. We was here, they was here. And we got to this going up 2, 1. And then they found something that went here and it was like we couldn't. We couldn't get there.
- [36:31]
A
Yeah. Couldn't reach that level.
- [36:32]
B
We couldn't reach that level, you know, and to come back to 2016, you know, being down 3:1, you know, because.
- [36:41]
A
It was the opposite. Golden State went bigger for stretch of.
- [36:43]
B
That series, played more Anderson, Verjon played some in that series as well. Bogut obviously, you know, so they did. They went a lot bigger, you know, at times throughout that series, you know, and just going down, you know, three one and happening to win a game five, you know, in Golden State, in Oracle. This is before the new arena in Oracle, which is a madhouse, you know, you feel like everybody's on top of you, you know. And, you know, I told the guys before we left, like, I was like, listen, you know, we're going to win. We're going to win game five. Like, I can feel it. We're going to win Game 5. I know you guys are upset about losing Game 4 at home, but whatever you got, just bring it with you to Golden State. I promise you, if we get back to Cleveland for game six, that we will be a game seven. And I'll take it from there. Like, I just need y' all to lock in whatever. I know y' all not gonna have much sleep. Y' all not gonna sleep after losing game four. Cause we had our chances and they just. They took off on us in Game 4. But once we won Game 5 in Golden State, you know, you win a game like that on the road, you know how hard it is to win in San Antonio, you know, in the post season, you know, you know how hard it is to win in certain buildings and. And that momentum. When you went in certain buildings in the post season, you like, oh, man.
- [38:07]
A
Yeah, we broke through a new ceiling.
- [38:08]
B
We broke through a new ceiling. And I think that's the momentum I felt, you know, when we won Game five, you know, in Oracle, did you.
- [38:17]
A
With Draymond out for Game five, did you guys feel a certain sense of opportunity, or did you think Oracle's just tough to play?
- [38:24]
B
No, we felt it was even going to be even tougher because role players play better at home.
- [38:32]
A
Right.
- [38:33]
B
We knew what Stephen Clay was going to bring, but we know, you know, Leandro Barbosa, you know, Mo Spates, Harrison.
- [38:41]
A
Barnes, and, you know, Iggy has another level.
- [38:43]
B
Iggy, you know, he. Iggy is like that Mano Ginobili, where. Oh, yeah, he's made. Coming off the bench, but he's a starter.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah, he's closer.
- [38:51]
B
Yeah, he's a closer. Okay. You bring him off the bench, but he can start on any team, you know, because of what he brings. So, you know, these guys are gonna play better on the road. So it was like we need to lock in even more because, you know, the. The. Some guys just don't play, you know, role players sometimes get intimidated by road crowds, you know.
- [39:12]
A
You guys went smaller there, though, in that series, didn't you?
- [39:16]
B
Well, yeah, we went smaller. Yeah. We played a lot with me and RJ and Kyrie, Swish and Shump and Or Deli, you know, at times. Kev was great for us at Game five, but throughout the series, he wasn't always great.
- [39:31]
A
Didn't always have the same. But I thought Richard, RJ had an important role that series. He had a huge role as someone I was consulting for the warriors at the time. I thought his energy, his will, him running the floor, him crashing the offensive glass, his physicality, you know, I think it bridged the gap for you guys a lot.
- [39:50]
B
Tristan was great.
- [39:51]
A
For us, Tristan, you know, being able to guard different positions, guardians, offensive rebounds.
- [39:57]
B
Catch the lob, catch it in the pocket.
- [39:59]
A
Yeah, that was a fascinating series. And it's so interesting to think, though, like, it felt like after Game three, you know, I know Draymond getting injured can also play a role in flipping the momentum. It felt like they were the better team.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah.
- [40:15]
A
And then you guys just spun that.
- [40:17]
B
Yeah.
- [40:17]
A
You know, how much did Game five, like you said, he felt like you went to a new level. Did that affect the way you played in Game seven? Because you'd already beat them at home.
- [40:24]
B
Yeah, we beat them at. So. So we beat them at home in Game six, which was.
- [40:30]
A
But, I mean, you won Game five in Oracle.
- [40:32]
B
Yeah, in Oracle, you go home and.
- [40:33]
A
Win, you come back in Game seven. Did Game five give you guys a ton of belief or Was it just.
- [40:38]
B
Yeah, its own energy, I think. I think. I think my guys just what I told them before we boarded a plane to go to the bay. Going to game five once what happened in Game five happened, my guys believed that what I was saying can come true, was fucking coming true. Y' all get me back to game six. We'll come back here for game seven.
- [41:07]
A
So it felt like the guy. It almost felt like destiny now to the guys.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [41:10]
A
We're meant to win this now.
- [41:11]
B
Yeah, it was like nothing is stopping us, you know? And, I mean, there's clips out there, me in the locker room saying that they're messed up and things of that nature. And we got them. We write, you know, Like, I just felt like we. They. I mean, they were the better team. I just think we just. It's the momentum wave. We hit a momentum pop and. And shit. There's nothing they could do about it. There's nothing they could have did about it. Once we got to that point. One of the most games in NBA history in the regular season, it was 73. Nine. That was a 73. Nine team.
- [41:49]
A
Amazing.
- [41:52]
B
You played against the 72 and 10 Bulls, correct?
- [41:56]
A
Yeah.
- [41:57]
B
And I watched. Yeah, you came in 96.
- [41:59]
A
96.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah. That was 98 when they did that. So you played against that team. Yeah, and I played against the 739 Warriors.
- [42:07]
A
Gotta make it special. You know, the team, usually the best team wins. Usually the best team wins when the, you know, a team like that loses. You know, those got to be the most rewarding ones.
- [42:17]
B
Yeah.
- [42:17]
A
How do you equate that to the Miami teams? You know, those two. Those two spurs series in particular.
- [42:24]
B
Oh, shit. I came back. That was another comeback, huh?
- [42:28]
A
Yeah. What was the momentum swing in that one?
- [42:30]
B
The momentum swing in that one is being down 3, 2 heading into a fourth quarter at home. I literally told myself, if you don't make every play this quarter, we're going to lose offensively and defensively, we're going to lose.
- [42:55]
A
And so not your normal. Your normal self. You feel like you ought to make it a lot of plays. Now you're saying, I cannot make a mistake.
- [43:01]
B
I cannot make a mistake. I have to be involved in every play offensively, defensively, flying around steals, blocks, making plays offensively, assists, putting the ball in the basket. That was just the mindset, like that momentum of myself. It wasn't even a team momentum. It was like, if you don't do it, this is the moment where you can't rely on anyone else. I just had that Mindset in order for it to go to a game seven all the way to the point where it was like the only time I had doubt is when I don't know exactly the score. But what pissed me off and I had a little bit of self doubt and also it pissed me off at the same time is when the NBA personnel brought the yellow rope out on the court and the game wasn't over yet. There was a moment where I looked to their bench and they were all like, arms locked, getting ready to celebrate. Getting ready to celebrate. And there was a moment I looked at NBA personnel and they was bringing the ropes out on our home court, and it pissed me off. I was like, I don't know how this is going to happen, but we about to make this happen. I thought I was going to be the one to make the shot. Ray Allen ended up doing it. But I took two of them.
- [44:24]
A
Yeah.
- [44:25]
B
You know, I took two to cut the lead at one point. I think, you know, if I rewatch it, I think they went to the line, missed a couple free throws or whatever and allowed us to come back in. And, you know, obviously we missed. I missed it 3. Chris Bosh got the offensive rebound we all know to play and kicks it to Ray, and Ray makes the shot. I thought I would be the guy. In my mind, I'm envisioning that shit of me making that shit. I built myself up to that. But yeah, seeing those, those. Those yellow ropes, you know, because my whole life is like, the game is not over until zeros on the clock. And it was just super disrespectful.
- [45:05]
A
You took that personal.
- [45:06]
B
Yeah, I did. That's how we end it. Oh, my goodness.
- [45:23]
A
Dude, I play pickup. If someone slow mode. Anything I did like, I would be.
- [45:27]
B
Because, by the way, everything looks worse than slow motion.
- [45:31]
A
Oh, it's not the same.
- [45:32]
B
Why do you think it's used in movies? What the fuck?
- [45:34]
A
Also, the camera was called the Falcon eyes camera is what the NBA. That's a. That's a serious name.
- [45:40]
B
It looked like a satellite. I've never seen that in my NBA career. It was unbelievable. That was the most unbelievable camera I've ever seen in my life.
- [45:47]
A
But, like, they don't use it because there's already like 27 cameras on an NBA broadcast, so they don't really need it. And then this one time, they pull it out of the back pocket. I think it's because.
- [45:55]
B
No, because it's me. Yeah. They was like, oh, shit, LeBron did it. Get the fucking Falcon out. We about to introduce that shit right now. LeBron's involved. We know somebody gonna talk about this.
- [46:10]
A
Thanks for watching Mind the Game. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe for more.
- [46:23]
B
Sa.