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- [00:02]
LeBron James
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- [00:34]
JJ Redick
First of all, dude, I'm so excited to have this conversation.
- [00:38]
LeBron James
Like, it's going to be fun.
- [00:41]
JJ Redick
I just wanted, before we start, I want to make sure we're on the same page with, like, why we're doing this. Right.
- [00:50]
LeBron James
Thank you.
- [00:53]
JJ Redick
I think, like, the core, it's gotta be what nothing else is, which is we're celebrating the game.
- [01:00]
LeBron James
Right.
- [01:02]
JJ Redick
So I think overall, like, I want it to feel comfortable, relaxed. I want it to strike a very positive tone.
- [01:08]
LeBron James
Yep.
- [01:09]
JJ Redick
I typically rant about things I'm gonna probably rant today. Like, it just comes out naturally, like, whatever.
- [01:17]
LeBron James
Let's do.
- [01:28]
JJ Redick
Welcome to Mind The Game with LeBron James and JJ Redick. This is a new podcast presented by Uninterrupted and 3, 4, 2 Productions. I want to be clear here. This is a basketball show. This is a show with the intention and purpose to celebrate the game, promote the game, explain the game. We will be covering a number of topics, not just the NBA, NCAA, men's and women's, WNBA, FIBA. LeBron and I are two people who. I would call us obsessed with the game of basketball, with this sport that has given so much to us. And two weeks ago, we sat down in LA to record the first two episodes. The first episode actually asks a simple question. What makes a great basketball player beyond just talent and skill set? And we touch on a number of things that we think that we think make a great basketball player. This is about creating separation. Once you get to the highest levels, everybody has talent, everybody has skill. How do you separate yourself? One of the things we talk about is basketball intelligence. In some ways, it's a nod to the title of the show. And we posit the question, can you learn basketball intelligence? Can you learn and develop basketball iq, or is it innate? And I would argue, of course you can. Of course you can develop basketball intelligence through film study, through great coaching, and of course, through the number one teacher experience. And I think that's an important thing to note. I was fortunate to play 15 years in the NBA. It was a. It was a hard 15 years of being a plumber, but I had a great experience and I learned so much about the game. And I had great coaches and I had great teammates. LeBron, of course, has played the game at the Highest level for 21 years. His experience is valuable. His basketball IQ is valuable. One thing to note, if you are listening to this podcast, we also have a video podcast available on social and YouTube. And in those videos we will be showing the exact basketball concepts that we are talking about. Episode one actually has a few different basketball concepts that we talk about. Episode two is a little more granular, a little more X and O. But episode one we do talk about thumb down. What is thumb down? Thumb down is simply a high screen and roll, a high pick and roll. Thumb down angle, which LeBron references, is just when that pick and roll is angled to a side of the floor so it's not in the center of the floor. It's either in that left high quadrant or that right high quadrant closer to the sideline. So thumb down angle would simply be a ball handler with the ball, a player in either corner, another player in the high quadrant opposite the ball, and then the screener. And again, these two guys can play pick and roll. And you play out of that. By the way, a lot of teams call high, pick and roll something different. Not every team calls it thumb down. I know when I played for Stan Van Gundy and the Orlando Magic, we had thumb down which was a high screening role with the five man, the center. We also had a screening role called thumb up which was with the four man. LeBron, by the way, will reference X4 and X5. Some teams call the four man X4. Some teams just call him four. Some teams call the five man. X5. Some teams call the five man, just five. Horns chest is another play that we talk about. Horns chest is when two offensive players are in both corners and then two offensive players are directly above the elbow or free throw line area at the three point line, creating almost like a horns. And then the point guard plays off of that. So the point guard can dribble off either side. The point guard can also throw the ball to one of the players at the horns and they can get into screening action. This is horns very simple. Ball handler, a player in either corner and then two players up here. A lot of times this guy will be the five man, this guy will be the ball handler, and this guy will be the scorer or the shooter. Boston Celtics, by the way, when they run their horns action, a lot of times the five man is space to one of these corners and they involve Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum and either Jrue Holiday or Derrick White. Horn's chest is a very simple play. So let's say this is LeBron and this is D'Angelo right here. And this is the X5. This is the five man. D'Angelo would dribble off of a LeBron screen right here, and then the five man would then set a chest screen or a flare screen for LeBron to this side, and that's ultimately where the ball would go. Another play we talk about is floppy, which is a play that I ran all the time. I'm not actually sure why it's called floppy. I do know that the visual for floppy was this. So I think floppy means you can basically go to either side. Floppy is when a catch and shoot offensive player goes underneath the basket and there's two bigs, one on either side that can screen form, and he looks to come off of screens on either side and catch and shoot the ball. This is just a simple floppy action. So you have the two bigs. Let's say this is the five man. This is the four man. This is the point guard. And then you have the two wing players underneath the basket. And let's say the two is the shooter. He can come off either side for a catch and shoot. He could also come off the five man catch and shoot. And honestly, this is going to get a little discombobulated. I know when I played with Matt Barnes in Philly, we would just dance in circles in here, and then I'd shoot out one of these sides. When I think about the game of basketball, I regard it as so important. I care for it, I love it, I want to pay attention to it. I want to learn more about it. The game is constantly evolving, and hopefully these discussions and conversations that LeBron and I have sometimes with other basketball players and basketball people, hopefully we can do that. Hopefully we can teach and explain and celebrate. Hopefully we can mine the game. What'd you bring?
- [08:28]
LeBron James
Well, we're gonna start off. I brought two bottles. Chamber 10, 2012. I brought this. This is special. My first championship year. Very special to me.
- [08:37]
JJ Redick
So it's a good vintage in Burgundy.
- [08:39]
LeBron James
Very, very good vintage. And then Lynch Bosch 95, I just brought that. I just feel like that's a nice little aftershock. But I'm Gonna open the 2012 Chamber 10, and then we could just. That's okay.
- [08:51]
JJ Redick
It's more than okay with me.
- [08:53]
LeBron James
I heard you the wine guy too, so.
- [08:55]
JJ Redick
Well, I told you this. We were originally supposed to record this first sit down in New York. So in anticipation of that I actually brought three bottles of 89 LaRois Claude LaRoche to the office and obviously some things came up. We didn't make it work.
- [09:12]
LeBron James
So that's a great sound, by the way.
- [09:14]
JJ Redick
We were both on the same page. We were both on the same page, which I love. It's funny, I called your game Wednesday night against the Clippers. You had just an insane fourth quarter and I was talking about, as it relates to you, competitive stamina, which is simply the ability to do something at a high level and then get up the next day and do it again. And for you, that's happened season after season, year after year. I think the best players have a level of competitive stamina. And it's one of three qualities for me that make a great basketball player. Because your quote after the game, it was, I know I was born with some gifts and athletic abilities, but that only gets you so far, for sure. What are the qualities for you that make a great basketball player beyond just talent and skill set and size?
- [10:11]
LeBron James
Knowing the history of the game, Knowing the history of the game, knowing the ones that came before you, knowing the ones that paved the way, knowing the reason why you're actually having the ability to actually live out your dream. That doesn't happen without the people that came before you. It doesn't happen without Bill Russell, you know, going through what he went through during the Civil Rights movement and all those things, Oscar Robinson going on, what he had to deal with, you know, during those times. It does not happen if they're able to just be pure in who they are. That allows us to now perform and do it with no care. Also, I think discipline at people, you know what, people use that word so loosely.
- [11:00]
JJ Redick
What does it mean to you?
- [11:03]
LeBron James
You have to have the ability when it comes to discipline. It's like you have to sacrifice loved ones. You have to sacrifice loved ones for a long period of time if you want to be great. It is very unfortunate and you feel it at times. You know the saying, if it's too hot, get the hell out of the kitchen. Sometimes you just gotta get out of the kitchen because it gets hot. But you have to have a discipline to. Sometimes you have to sacrifice loved ones in order to be great because they don't understand, and that's okay. They don't understand what it means to, like, I am getting up every single day at 5 or 6am and when I get home after everyone leaves the gym, I'm going to take a nap. So now you're sacrificing your loved Ones because you're not spending time with them. And when I wake up, I'm. I'm probably gonna train again, and then I'm gonna have dinner, and then I'm going to bed, and I'm gonna do that every single day for a long period of time. That's sacrificing and discipline, you know? And for me, I was 18 when I came into the league. So I got my best friends from high school that's now in college. I got one that's at Ohio State. I got two that's at the University of Akron. I have another one that's at a school in West Virginia, Fairmont State. And they're calling me, telling me, hey, bro, you got. Yo, you gotta come down to the. You gotta come down to these parties. You're not going to college. You're never going to be in college. You got. And I. I couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. I look back on it now, I wish I would have done a few of them. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna lie. I wish I did. But then the third thing JJ Asked. Do you really love the game? Like, do you really love the game? And I'm not just talking about, like, wins and losses. Do you really love the process of the game and everything that happens before the referee does? Like this. That's the easy part. You know this. You know this. You was one of the first ones in the gym, one of the last ones to leave. Everyone sees when the cameras are rolling and the 20,000 fans are there and the cheerleaders are dancing and the popcorn is popping and the celebrities are sitting in celebrity row. But, like, who has the love for the game when nobody is there?
- [13:38]
JJ Redick
You know, I love all of that. And it's interesting, the love of the game part is so funny to me because I think there's a distinction between loving the game, I. E. The game, the actual competition itself, and what it means to actually love the game and everything that goes into that. You hear guys all the time, I just want to play. I just want to play. Okay, do you want to do all the things that are necessary that lead up to playing the actual game?
- [14:08]
LeBron James
Well, the guys that say, I just want to play, won't they're. They. Their career won't be long. Cause they're not gonna put in all the other. All the intricate parts of what to get to that point. That's only gonna. It's not gonna last that long. It's not gonna last that long. You won't have a long, sustainable career. And that's okay. Some guys, I mean, you've been in the locker room. Some guys don't really care about playing a long time in this league or having a sustain. You have. So sometimes I look in, like, some of the All Star locker rooms I've been in, and you see a guy one year, or you see a guy maybe two years, and then he's not in the locker room anymore after that. And you just, like, wonder to yourself why. You know, you don't know. You don't know if it's the max contract that he got after he made the All Star team. You don't know if now they know him by one name for one summer. You know, you just don't know. But it's like, if you want to. If you want to be great and want to be, like, legendary or not even. I don't even say that. If you want to maximize everything that you have with your career and your ability, then squeeze the fuck out of that lemon. Yeah, why not?
- [15:25]
JJ Redick
Yeah. I want to talk about each of those three things a little in depth because I also have three things. But the history of the game part's interesting to me because you brought up Oscar Robertson. And whether the casual fan knows this or not, Oscar Robertson sued in 1970 for free agency. And that court case took six years. So the NBA really didn't have any form of free agency until 1976. Side note, in 1977, at the time, in free agency, you had to compensate the team that was losing the player. So Gail Goodrich left the Los Angeles Lakers and went to the Jazz. The Jazz compensated the Lakers with some future draft picks. One of those picks turned out to be Magic Johnson.
- [16:14]
LeBron James
Magic.
- [16:14]
JJ Redick
It's pretty interesting. You talked about the discipline. It's pretty interesting.
- [16:20]
LeBron James
That's pretty cool, though. It's like soccer now. Yeah, it's like soccer. You got to compensate the club.
- [16:24]
JJ Redick
There wasn't real unrestricted free agency. John Konkak was the first guy. And that was like, 1987.
- [16:29]
LeBron James
Right.
- [16:30]
JJ Redick
It just didn't exist.
- [16:31]
LeBron James
Right, right, right.
- [16:32]
JJ Redick
The reason. I mean, I didn't make as much money as you, but the reason I got to make a lot of money in the NBA is like, it's a direct line to Oscar Roberts.
- [16:40]
LeBron James
Yeah, for sure.
- [16:41]
JJ Redick
You know, let's celebrate that. Right. You talked about the sacrificing loved ones. I always felt like my pursuit was so selfish.
- [16:51]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [16:51]
JJ Redick
And I would acknowledge that to my wife, my kids, whatever, my friends. Yeah, it was so selfish. But it was like the only way that I knew how to do it. The only way.
- [17:02]
LeBron James
That's it.
- [17:03]
JJ Redick
So you touched on those things. My three things are competitive stamina, which I'm going to get to in a second. The love of the game is one of mine for sure. Caring more about your craft instead of the other stuff that doesn't matter is a direct quote from you. And then the third one I think is. Is basketball iq. Yeah, basketball iq. I have described Nikola Jokic, I've described you as having supercomputers. Like your processing speed is a little different. I put James Harden that category. I put Luke in that category. There's a number of guys that have a different processing speed. Some of this stuff, love of the game, that's a little bit of just desire, attitude, all that stuff. Competitive stamina, same thing. Can you develop basketball IQ at the highest level? You can get a little smarter as a player. Can you develop it as IQ level?
- [17:58]
LeBron James
When you brought up basketball iq, the first thing that came to my mind, I started thinking right away. I was like, are you born with basketball IQ or are you taught the game the right way? And now the basketball IQ clicks on. Like, I was literally just when you was explaining that. Because I come from, I come from, I believe, great coaching, you know, from my little league coach, Frank Walker senior, to my, at the time, AAU coach, Coach Drew Joyce, to my high school coach who was a former college coach, Coach Danbrot. And then my AAU coach took over when Coach Danbrot went back to college basketball. I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, I was taught the game the right way. But the one thing that those coaches always told me, they told me that I had an uncanny ability to process information faster than anyone they've ever seen one coach. And this is. I know you're going to smirk about this. There's guys in the NBA that if you call a play or a coach, draw a play to one side of the floor, they can't switch it in their head and do it and say, let's run it to the other side without the coach drawing on the clipboard. Yeah, I've never understood that. And I don't know. I never understood that. So if I say we running thumb down angle, we're running on the right side, so. Cause I have a left hand point guard, he wants to come middle to a strong hand. He has the ability to hit the pocket pass with the left hand, has the ability to throw ahead his lefty, and also has the ability to throw Back on the shake. But if I say, hey, we run a thumb down angle on the left side. Cause now the right hand guard coming right. I've had teammates that's like, oh, what do you mean? Coaches always in practice. We only ran it from this side. Yeah, I could flip a play when I was 8 years old. No matter if it was just pass and cut. No matter if it was. Let's run flex, but let's start on the left side. No matter if it was just, you know, let's dho, dho, dho. Driving kick the last one. All right, now let's. Let's just drive the baseline. Baseline drive drift. If the guard. If the b. If the forward on the left side's looking at the ball, you can slot cut. I could do that. I was doing that stuff when I was like 8, 9 years old. And my coaches would just be blown away and I would just. I wouldn't know where it came from. I have no idea. So to get back to your question, I think I was born with a sports IQ and it could have been any sport, but I just think basketball was the one that I like. I was, I chose. And maybe I was chosen to do that as well. And I just took it to a whole. As I got older and your mind gets. You start to. You start to live it, you start to want to be a part of it. You start watching. I started to watch the. I started watching the games, you know, when I was like 19 years old when I first started, I was watching just a fan. I was just a fan of Michael Jordan and Anthony Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill and, you know, those guys. I was just a fan. But then when I started playing the game, I actually started like studying what those guys were doing out on the floor and what teams were doing, how teams were guarding, how coaches were coaching, you know, subbing patterns, you know, time of possession. You know. The one thing that kills me, jj, in our league. I'm gonna tell you what kills me.
- [21:36]
JJ Redick
Tell me, tell me what kills you.
- [21:39]
LeBron James
The two for one shot at the end of quarters.
- [21:44]
JJ Redick
Are you going on an anti crusade against the two for one?
- [21:48]
LeBron James
I understand why the two for one is important. Obviously it's numbers. You get two possessions, the other team gets one possession.
- [21:58]
JJ Redick
In theory, it's a free shot.
- [21:59]
LeBron James
In theory, it's a free shot. But what people sometimes don't account for the four or five possessions before that. Are we on a run? Are we on a heater? Have we gotten a good shot over the last two and a half Minutes, what is the other team doing? Are they in a great rhythm? If we haven't gotten a great shot in two and a half, three minutes and we've been turning the ball over, why am I just gonna dribble down and shoot a 40 footer with 33 on the clock? Why not get a great look? Cause that great look at the end of the third, even if we get one shot, may give us momentum going into the fourth quarter.
- [22:38]
JJ Redick
Right. You know, it's interesting cause I think it does fuck with the flow of the game. And as a player, I felt that as a broadcaster now where I'm calling games, you can, you have such a good feel as like an outside observer.
- [22:52]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [22:53]
JJ Redick
Of this action happening. So end of the second quarter, you're going into halftime with the lead. You've established, let's say a pick and roll partnership where you're getting a good shot every time down the floor on the other end, you're getting stops, you're getting stops. So the other team's having. Why are you. You're right. Why are you going to just jack up a 35 footer? Just go to the pick and roll, rely on your defense now. Boom. You go into the half with essentially the same momentum you would have if you get the two to one.
- [23:24]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [23:25]
JJ Redick
By the way you shouted out your coaches. I want to say this because I think there, some of it is innate with basketball iq.
- [23:32]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [23:32]
JJ Redick
Some of it is the way you're taught, Some of it is going back to your point about discipline, the dedication to the craft. I got to shout out my coaches now because Delmar Irving, Keith Haynes, Dick Wall, my early coaches for the Roanoke Jaguars, they taught me how to play. They taught me how to play with toughness. I get to JV, 8th grade, Chris Morris, Billy Hicks, then I go to coach K at Duke. So by the time I got to the NBA, I knew how to process and think the game. It wasn't new to me. It wasn't new to me to think the game.
- [24:07]
LeBron James
You also knew it was bullshit. And what was not bullshit.
- [24:10]
JJ Redick
Yes.
- [24:11]
LeBron James
There's a lot of bullshit that gets taught in our league because our league has been feast off potential guys with potential. They come in and say, this guy has potential. We have to. If it's not year one, maybe year two or not year three or maybe year four, are we going to pick up his option in year four? Like it's been grasped on potential. Like that has been. That's the whole thing of the lottery. The whole thing of the lottery. Pick 1 through 13 or 14. I don't even know what it is now when it cuts off. Like you've been a lottery pick, but it makes sense. Why those guys. That's like 16 to 30, 16 to 42. Why those guys be on real contending teams making impacts.
- [25:04]
JJ Redick
Also, why is it the same teams that always draft well and the same teams that always draft poorly?
- [25:10]
LeBron James
I'll tell you, when I get my team, the teams that draft well, those guys will be working for me for sure.
- [25:16]
JJ Redick
Just you get to offer them a bag.
- [25:18]
LeBron James
Yeah, for sure.
- [25:18]
JJ Redick
You gotta get.
- [25:19]
LeBron James
OKC does an unbelievable job with that. Yeah, that's a fact.
- [25:22]
JJ Redick
That's a fact. I was thinking about, you know, this. So by, like the end of my first year with the Clippers, we realized all of my catch and shoot stuff. I wanted to come over. Left shoulder.
- [25:34]
LeBron James
Yes, sir.
- [25:34]
JJ Redick
Right. I wanted to come to my right.
- [25:36]
LeBron James
Yes, sir.
- [25:37]
JJ Redick
And so for the next three years, every single time we drew up a play was to do that. Right. When I got to like Philly, to your point about, like, guys not understanding this, I got to like Philly and New Orleans. The coaches would drop a play in the huddle and I'd be like, no, no, no, I want to come over my left shoulder, just flip it. And I'd walk out on the court and then my teammates would be like, oh, what am I doing here?
- [25:58]
LeBron James
You know what I mean?
- [25:59]
JJ Redick
I'm like, no, no, just, just flip it. Which guys, by the way? The, the, the. The processing speed. I mentioned a few guys, Guys you played with, guys you played against.
- [26:09]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [26:09]
JJ Redick
That you think have that sort of high level basketball iq.
- [26:14]
LeBron James
Rajon Rondo. Yeah, for sure. He has, he can process, flip, do things on the, on the go. Like, it's very weird to me that he's not coaching at a high level. I think it's because he doesn't want to do it.
- [26:28]
JJ Redick
It's a lot.
- [26:29]
LeBron James
It is a lot. It is a lot. And who wants to deal with all these rich entitled guys all the time?
- [26:36]
JJ Redick
You guys make too much money.
- [26:37]
LeBron James
It's just a weird thing. You guys make too much.
- [26:39]
JJ Redick
Let's get a cheers, man.
- [26:40]
LeBron James
Let's get a cheers, man. Cheers. Cheers.
- [26:41]
JJ Redick
Cheers. Thank you for the wine, by the way.
- [26:42]
LeBron James
It smells amazing too.
- [26:47]
JJ Redick
Going back to that competitive stamina thing because I was calling the game and I knew this because I played in la, but Clippers home games against the Lakers is not really a home game. Half the crowd are Clippers fans, half the crowd are Lakers fans. And so the arena felt very Subdued, you know, because you guys were getting your ass kicked.
- [27:09]
LeBron James
Getting our ass kicked.
- [27:10]
JJ Redick
The body language was bad. I think I even mentioned that on air. Like, you just saw it in the huddles. You saw it coming out of timeouts, going into timeouts. You saw it when guys were getting subbed out. Like it was just bad body language. And then as Darvin Ham said, you. You decided to put your cape on and lead this comeback. You outscored the Clippers, and by yourself in the fourth quarter, in that moment where you're down 19 in the fourth, it's a dead game. You know, your team is. I call it like letting go of the rope. You know, Doc river used to always say that, don't let go of the rope.
- [27:43]
LeBron James
Yep.
- [27:44]
JJ Redick
What. What goes through your mind.
- [27:50]
LeBron James
You probably got a few minutes to try to change it or you're gonna get. You're gonna get pulled. Knowing it's a back to back, knowing that, okay, we lose to the Clippers, we got our ass kicked, okay. But we can't then the very next night lose to Washington as well. So I go out there, down 19, you know, with the lineup, I believe at the start of the fourth lineup, it was myself, D. Lo Jackson, Hayes Torreon, Prince, Cam Reddish. So, you know, coach drew up a play. First play, I believe he droves up Horns, Chess, and they fucked up on the horn's chest. So we ran it again. And there's another thing that bothers me about the NBA too. Why do we not continue just run the same thing over and over until they stop it? Guys would run a play one time, then you were scoring, then they'd change the play. But anyways, we ran it again and they fucked it up again. So, I mean, for me, if I see two threes go down, I'm going to check and see if it's a heater in his right elbow for sure. And I hit another one. And at this point now I'm feeling really good. I got a nice bounce in my step. We getting stops and I take one down the right wing. And PJ's picking me up in transition. And I rarely shoot the ball on the run, you know, especially if the ball's in my right hand. I rarely shoot it. But I had a bounce and I had a feeling. I felt like I said, if this one, if I can make this one go, I know this is when, like NBA Jam, you're on fire, you know, if this one goes. Yeah. And I let that one go from the right wing by their bench. That's Why? I kind of almost bumped into t loop and they called timeout. That's when I knew that the momentum can change. You know, the momentum can change. And once, you know, once the ball, the snowball gets going down that hill, you know, snowball turns into the avalanche and the avalanche just turns into. It's over with, you know. So I just felt good at that moment.
- [30:04]
JJ Redick
A few things there. So like with the three ball, we've seen it so often now. No lead is really safe.
- [30:11]
LeBron James
No.
- [30:12]
JJ Redick
Think back to early in your career. I came in the league in 06 07. I played no minutes my first two years. But you know what? If we had a 19 point lead going to the fourth, I might get all 12 minutes of garbage time.
- [30:27]
LeBron James
For sure.
- [30:28]
JJ Redick
People would clear their benches. This was 15 years ago. For sure people would clear their benches with a 17 point lead in the fourth and no nine minutes to go.
- [30:36]
LeBron James
Yeah, for sure.
- [30:36]
JJ Redick
You can't do that anymore.
- [30:37]
LeBron James
You can't do that anymore. You know why? Because I believe in 0809 or whenever that little light skinned fucker came in the league that's in Golden State, he changed that whole narrative. He did. He singly hand, single handedly changed the no lead is safe. It's like Pat Mahomes right now.
- [30:59]
JJ Redick
It's interesting you bring up Steph because I think there's love that guy. A long history of Steph, of great players that have impacted the game. And you can see a lineage between different skill sets. Right. Michael to Kobe. Right. You can see that. I don't know that there's been a player that has influenced the game more than Steph. And you can certainly point to like Harden for sure in that era, Damian Lillard for sure. But you're right, it started with Steph.
- [31:32]
LeBron James
When it comes to influence, since I've been watching the game, since I've been watching the game, the most influence on the game and obviously we know what Mike did for the game.
- [31:41]
JJ Redick
Sure.
- [31:42]
LeBron James
You know, Steph and Allen Iverson are the two biggest influential guys in our game since I've been watching it and covering it, you know, one, they're six'three six four if you want to. Steph's not six'four if you want to look on the back of a basketball card, you know, you're always a lot taller on the back of the basketball card. You know, Allen Iverson and Steph, they were just so relatable and kids felt like they could be them. They were guys that was not always counted on. They were small in stature. And they just definitely define the odds. So you got AI who's like unbelievable crossover cornrows. Arm sleeve. We wear arm sleeve. Everyone wears arm sleeve now because Allen Iverson and he's going in the trenches, you know, landed up over Biggs, whatever the case may be. And now you have Steph, who's shooting over the Empire State Building. You know, it's like those two are the two most influential. When you say the game, how they changed the game and the kids. And like those are two guys that you just wanted to watch every single night.
- [32:57]
JJ Redick
I have an arm sleeve because of Allen Iverson. No bullshit, listen. No bullshit, listen.
- [33:03]
LeBron James
One of my tattoos is because of Allen Iverson.
- [33:05]
JJ Redick
Sure. And Steph, I think he changed like the influence with Steph, I think is like he fundamentally changed how we viewed how the game should be played with the three point shot. Do you think? Because part of the Steph thing in this three point revolution for a fan is that we have now simplified the NBA. All right, we're just going to shoot a bunch of threes. My question to you, going back to that basketball intelligence piece, does the game require more basketball intelligence now or does it require less than when you first started.
- [33:40]
LeBron James
From. You can't ask me that because I'm always side on basketball iq. Yeah, always. I think throughout the regular season, you can get away with a low IQ team if you're talented. You can get away with it in the first round and maybe get away with it in the second round. But when you get to the conference finals and you get to the finals, obviously the top four teams in the conference finals, they have players. Unless the team just happened to hit a heater and they just get lucky. But the top four teams normally are going to be the teams with the best players, four of the best coaches. And what's going to separate them is now the basketball IQ kicks in. Because there's moments in the game that a coach cannot prepare you for film, can't prepare you for the history of the game, can't prepare you for where you have to have a basketball IQ to make adjustments right away. And if you don't have that level of mind frame or capacity, then a team like Denver, who has one of the greatest IQ guys that we've ever seen in Jokic, you know, Golden State, Draymond, Steph, any one of my teams, if I played you in the finals myself, and when I won it in 20, it was myself and Rondo on the floor. So I think that those things. Those things help. I believe that when Golden State beat Boston. It came down to IQ in the finals because Boston, to me, had the better talent. Boston had the better talent, but it came down to iq. People say experience, iq.
- [35:35]
JJ Redick
I made this comment the other day about Tatum. It feels like with him, the reads are quicker. Making the right play, it's just quicker. He doesn't fight the game as much. I did the details thing for ESPN during that finals, and I did. Clay was the first episode. Steph was the second episode. Tatum was the third. And so I had all these Tatum clips I got to go through and break down. I don't never watch the episode. They, you know, it's behind a paywall. But, you know, what I saw was on the isolations on the wing. So a lot of times would be in the slot, the high quadrant. Right. And they've given him space. They would bring that low man over early. Sometimes it was Draymond, but not always. Sometimes it was Clay.
- [36:29]
LeBron James
Yep.
- [36:30]
JJ Redick
And very rarely did he end up getting the Golden State warriors into rotation.
- [36:37]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [36:38]
JJ Redick
Now it feels like he's just making the play off the ball now. It did happen a couple times in that finals.
- [36:45]
LeBron James
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:45]
JJ Redick
But it wasn't as quick, and it was rare.
- [36:48]
LeBron James
Yeah.
- [36:48]
JJ Redick
And obviously with their personnel, like, it's. It's different now with Porzingis, but I think that's. That's part of, like, the growth, so.
- [36:55]
LeBron James
That's part of the growth.
- [36:55]
JJ Redick
So even going back to, like, the question about, can you teach basketball iq, in some ways, it's. It's an. It's innate.
- [37:03]
LeBron James
Right.
- [37:03]
JJ Redick
But in some ways, if you're studying it and doing it, you can see the growth in a player.
- [37:09]
LeBron James
Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, there's a great saying that says the best teacher in life is experience as well. And we look at Tate. I mean, he's 25 years old. He's 25 years old, and I believe he's been to the conference finals four times. Been to the. Obviously, the NBA finals once. He's 25. I didn't. I mean, I didn't win my first one Till I was 28. I think Joker won his first one at 27. I think MJ was 28 as well.
- [37:36]
JJ Redick
Kobe without Shaq was around. Steph was.
- [37:39]
LeBron James
Yeah. So, like, you know, I think we have a. You know, we have a lot of expectations on jt, but he's experienced a lot of winning in his career so far. And obviously, you know, everyone wants to see him get over the hump. But four conference finals in a finals appearance before the age of 26 is elite. And like you just said, he's. He's continued to grow. And, you know, they are in a position where they can make another title run. And like you said, personnel helps. You know, Adam Porzingis and getting Drew for a bag of lay's potato chips, that helps as well. That helps as well. But JT is definitely the. You know, when you. When you. When you go. You start scouting for Boston, he's the. He's the number one guy for sure.
- [38:29]
JJ Redick
Basketball IQ to me, when you were earlier than me, when I first got in the NBA, though, what that meant to me in some ways was being able to remember a play honestly. As simple as that. Being able to recognize patterns.
- [38:46]
LeBron James
Yep.
- [38:47]
JJ Redick
You come out of an ato. Okay.
- [38:49]
LeBron James
Oh, my God.
- [38:49]
JJ Redick
There's a misdirection here. I know there's going to be a pin down coming, right. It's just. That's pattern recognition. Offensively, defensively, it's just making the right read.
- [38:58]
LeBron James
Making the right read.
- [38:58]
JJ Redick
Knowing the game plan, like all that, that's. That's basketball iq. I think what's interesting about today's NBA is what smart coaches do and what smart players do, which did not happen when I first got to the NBA. Nearly every possession, all you're doing is trying to find the right target.
- [39:17]
LeBron James
Matchup a target.
- [39:18]
JJ Redick
You're playing chess on the possession target.
- [39:20]
LeBron James
Basketball. Yeah.
- [39:22]
JJ Redick
And that to me is the biggest difference.
- [39:23]
LeBron James
Yeah, that never happened, bro.
- [39:25]
JJ Redick
I was watching a game. I was calling a game, actually. Guy had the ball, good offensive player had the ball at the top of the key. And they're playing the Clippers and ended the shot clock seven on the clock. Another guy off the ball is being guarded by Kawhi Leonard. And he comes up to set a pick and roll for the guy with the ball.
- [39:47]
LeBron James
And it makes no sense.
- [39:48]
JJ Redick
And I'm like, that's just low basketball iq.
- [39:50]
LeBron James
That's just low basketball iq.
- [39:51]
JJ Redick
Keep Kawhi away from the ball.
- [39:52]
LeBron James
That is low basketball iq. That is low basketball iq. That doesn't make any sense. And that happens a lot in our. And I'm gonna go back to when you first started. You said remembering a play. How many guys fuck up a play out of timeout? Burns me alive. It burns me alive that a coach can sit there and guys, all five guys, ten eyes are looking at the play and they come out of the time. I fuck it up. Bothers me so bad. But yeah, like you said, you knew, like when you played, you had two reads. I'm coming off left Right. And if the big is not up, I'm shooting that bitch. And if the big is up, I'm pocket passing.
- [40:36]
JJ Redick
Yeah.
- [40:37]
LeBron James
What else are we talking about?
- [40:38]
JJ Redick
Well, the, the one other thing. The one other thing. Sometimes the big would be back, right? And I'd get the stunt off and.
- [40:45]
LeBron James
You get the stun off the passage.
- [40:46]
JJ Redick
So like when I played in Philly, they would do that off Ben and then I would just kick to Ben and he's got a head of steam going down the line.
- [40:51]
LeBron James
Well, I mean, and when being.
- [40:52]
JJ Redick
You got to read the nail guy too.
- [40:54]
LeBron James
You got to read the nail guy. I had.
- [40:55]
JJ Redick
I don't, don't kind of like underestimate.
- [40:58]
LeBron James
Well, that's not. Well, that's not. Agree. I agree. I agree. I was more thinking with the Clippers. I was thinking more pocket to.
- [41:05]
JJ Redick
It's so weird though because even like the, the coverage on catch and shoot stuff and there's not a ton of catch and shoot guys right anymore where like you're not running floppy. There's happen a lot, but like when I first started running it or like Ray in Boston, when you're running that, you would always stun up with the big.
- [41:23]
LeBron James
With the big.
- [41:23]
JJ Redick
And the pocket pass was always there, always there. Once teams started playing more drop coverage, they just kept the big back and catch and shoot, right. And so a lot of times that, that help would actually come off the passer. So if they knew we were in a catch and shoot play kick, to me, the help comes off the passer, then it's.
- [41:40]
LeBron James
Then it's.
- [41:40]
JJ Redick
I gotta make that read. Back to the top.
- [41:41]
LeBron James
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, Cause now offense is so more extended now, you know, the big could be the guy that can help up a little bit because you know, if you look at like Rip Hamilton, you know, at the time he wasn't, he wasn't coming off their floppy down action going to the three point line, he was coming off more elbow action. So you can kind of, you know, contact help with the big. And then mostly when we, obviously when we came in the league, there was a point guard in the front, there was another forward at the free throw line, and there was two big. So even if you did get extended a little bit when you made the pocket pass, at least the other big X4X5 could come over and help. Now, well, like, you know, in Boston's case, it's five guys on the perimeter at one time.
- [42:24]
JJ Redick
Nobody's in the paint.
- [42:25]
LeBron James
Nobody's in the paint. You have Drew Jason, you know, Brown. You know, Porzingis could be at the top. He could be. You know, you got Derrick White. They're all over the place. So, you know, the level of where you help from has changed a lot because the bigs in basketball history have been programmed to help no matter where they are. And that's where the IQ comes into. You got certain bigs that, you know, if I just drive this slot and they say don't help. Strong side shooter in the corner. That is the easiest three. You just know that there's certain bigs that he's going to leave no matter what. Because he's been programmed his whole life to protect the rim.
- [43:18]
JJ Redick
I think out there. Because if I. If I go to the next thing, we're going to talk for another hour.
- [43:23]
LeBron James
Yeah, cuz I can talk.
- [43:24]
JJ Redick
No, no, no, I'm serious. Like, cuz, I mean, that was, that was legitimate. What I had is episode one. All right, that's been fun.
- [43:33]
LeBron James
How was it? Yeah, just keep rolling. How was it? So par. That's my. That's me. Okay. You know, we got, we got room for improvement.
- [43:42]
JJ Redick
This has been episode one of Mind the Game. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.
- [44:11]
LeBron James
Sa.