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A
Craving your next action packed adventure, Audible delivers thrills of every kind on your command. Like Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir where a lone astronaut must save humanity from extinction. Narrated with stunning intensity by Ray Porter. From electrifying suspense and daring quests to spine tingling horror and romance and far off realms, unleash your adventure aside with gripping titles that'll keep you guessing. Discover exclusive Audible originals, hotly anticipated new releases and must Listen bestsellers that hook you from the first minute. Because Audible knows there's no greater thrill than the one that speaks to you. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat. Start your free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery us that's audible.com wonderyus I.
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B
Want to put start the blender 20.
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A
Years now hands are chanting start the blender. By the way, you know the funny thing is every time I play international basketball, we play against Serbia, we play it against all these other countries and me in there. All type of chants like going crazy. No matter if they're up 20. No matter if they're down 20.
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B
Welcome back to Mind the Game presented by Uninterrupted and Wondery. We're still in Indiana having a great time here discussing the game. This episode we dug into the mid range. So common for people to think the mid range has left the game of basketball, which is actually not true. It's only part of the truth. So we talked about the positive and the negative of the mid range and why the mid range has never been more important. Now let's get to the episode we hope you enjoy. You know, one of the things I wanted to talk about is a mid range shot. We talk about it so much generally. Right? We talk about it. I think the average fan knows like the mid range shot's gone away, three point shot in abundance. But like I'd like to dive into like some more like if not truths, some, some context and like where are we with the mid range shot? Why has the game gone the way it's gone? And I think we've talked about this. We've talked about this a little bit before. But like to start it off with some context, when I came in the league I came into a team with three or four power forwards who couldn't shoot past the elbow, you know, that played on the block. Right. The game was completely different. You know, nowadays those guys don't exist, right? Those players are out of the league. They're either small ball fives or they had to be like more skilled playmaking perimeter players. So there's some Context here. One, the evolution. Okay, why, why did we go away from the two bigs, the power forward, throw it in the post, the center could be high in the parking lot. The way the old rules were when I came in the league with guys lifted, you know, we took that out. We took out the, you know, the lifted players. The illegal defense rules now. The illegal defense, 2.9 in the lane. A little bit more of a hybrid towards international college ball. We also changed the physicality. You know, people can no longer hit with the forearm hold, you know, all the things they used to do. So now the game's faster, more fluid. You know, we've talked about a little bit about our 7 seconds or less teams. We opened it up, we played four out or five out at times, you know, as a precursor. And I know they did that in Orlando with Dwight, Stan did that on those teams. And some of these teams started to figure out like we, you know, we gotta play differently. But really what's happened here is that now everyone, I think the conversation largely talks about for the average fan, we don't shoot mid range shots anymore. We've taken them out. That's not true.
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A
It's not true.
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B
Role players don't shoot mid range shots anymore. The role player in our league nowadays has to be able to guard multiple positions, has to be able to make threes and it's a bonus and growing. If they can attack a close out.
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A
If they can attack a close out.
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B
Start the blender.
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A
Start the blender.
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B
So that is what's happened here. I'm going to make the argument now and I want us to talk about this at length, that the mid range shot has never been more important for your creator because teams are obviously going to try to take away the rim and the threes. So let me think of a number now depending on your model. But a few years ago I was made aware to me that just the numerical value of a mid range shot, so the average points for possession, like I think this year the average points per possession of an NBA game for the entire league is like 1.14. There was like 14 guys in the league who shot 1.14 efficiency from the mid range 14 right out of 400 some players. So the value clearly is not a high value shot. Right, but really what that's saying is that is not a high value for your non creator. Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about like teams know the number one value is a layup, number two is a free throw, number three really probably offensive rebound Threes all right, Offensive rebounds because you got a chance at a layup, you got a chance at an and one, you got a chance of free throws or, or you.
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A
Got the chance of defense.
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B
Defenses closing, right? Threes. So for anyone who thinks there's too many threes, I'd like to know your take on this. That's never going away. And it's not because we don't take mid ranges anymore. Like think about it, Luka SGA's gonna have, Shea is gonna have the best mid range year ever in the NBA. Something like 60% on like 15 mid range shots a game. This is likely MVP, if not number two MVP race having an unbelievable season and he is shooting more mid range shots than anyone else. But the key is like Giannis who's picked up his mid range game. Jokic elite from the mid range, you know, kd, Luka, whoever. These guys are top players, you know what they are not doing is stopping driving the ball basket. So Shai is still an elite, maybe the leader in drives, right? Same when push comes to shove you Luka Jokic trying to get to the rim. So it's not, I'm going to settle for mid range shots. These are elite players taking the ball to the basket, taking threes. But the defense also is going to say we can't let him get in there. What do you do now? So that's where these mid range shots are never more valuable from your creators.
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A
No, for sure. And the one thing about the creators, we, we're going to hit all three levels and in order to be able to hit all three levels, it keeps the, it gives your teammates even more opportunities to do what they are out there to do, you know, by either extending the defense to the three point. Okay, we're not gonna, you're shooting ten twelve threes a game. Well now we're gonna extend our defense. We're not gonna allow you to shoot the threes but we're also gonna protect the rim. But the creators in our game have always worked on mid ranges either if it's mid range pull ups, mid range floaters, you know, turning, turning drives into back downs, you know, to be in the mid range like you know, for me, even mid range post ups, even mid range post ups. You know you get a lot of guys and you know, you know your former teammate Dirk mastered the nail ISO, you know and at the time and when Dirk was in his prime and doing this thing it was yeah, I can get all the way to the rim. I can back you down from Here or I can face you up and shoot, no dribbles, use all my, all my footwork, use all my pivots. And I'm going to keep the defense so at, at bay and off balance. That is always going to work to the benefit of our team. And that's what it, that's what it is. I think, you know, like you said, the common fan will say there's no mid range in the NBA anymore. It's just fast breaks, layups, right threes and free throws. Yeah, but it's absolutely, absolutely not true.
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B
It's not true. And I think like, it's just important and maybe this is something that a lot of people are like, that makes, that's obvious. But I think a lot of fans, you know, it goes all these swings while we know more mid range shots. Like, where would the Knicks be without Jalen Brunson in the mid range? You know, where would like Oklahoma City? Like, that's the solve. That's the solve for people taking away the rim, taking away the threes. You know, I think there's some numbers on Shai where he's elite, elite, elite in pick and roll. The number drops precipitously when they double him. So think about this. They're playing four on three now. They have a great team, right? They have great team guys that can put the ball on the floor, pass, shoot, make plays. You know, maybe this is largely when Jalen Williams is off the floor, but when he gets doubled, they go to like one point per possession from like elite, elite, elite. Right. Or below one point per possession. So it shows. Like that should lead to threes and layups when you're playing four and three.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
So his ability to exploit that space in the middle and still be elite is based on the fact that he is a three level scorer, like you said, and that without that, they're not.
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Efficient and they're not the number one team in the West.
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And you could say that about a lot of the top players in our league without them. Because teams are going to take away the rim, they're going to take away the perimeter, the threes.
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Especially in the postseason when things become even more dialed in and strategic about the game plan. And you have, you know, throughout the course of the regular season, if you're playing against a certain team, you have a shoot around maybe, and then you have a pregame, 20 minute conversation to prepare for a team maybe, you know, in the post season, you have days and days and days to be able to prepare and also be Able to still prepare throughout the series, you know, to be able to lock in on personnel, lock in on keys, lock in on what we want to try to make you do. So if you have these three level guys that can keep the defense no matter what you try to implement, you take away the three, I get to the mid range. You take it away the mid range, I could get to the hole. You try to press up too much. Now I can draw fouls, I can get the team into the bonus. So now when we start the blender, I've gotten our team into the bonus, we start to blender. Now my teammates are able to be successful too. Off closeouts. Now they're playing a four on three game. So like you said, if it's OKC and Shay's getting, Shay's getting blitzed in the pick and roll and you're hitting Jalen Williams in the pocket or you hit Alex Caruso in the pocket, you're at the mercy, you know, you're scrambling. Yeah. If you're playing Boston and you're doubling Jason Tatum and you're hitting Jrue Holiday in the pocket, now this guy is, he's a point guard making four on three reads, things he's been doing his whole career. So it's like it is very, it's very key. And the mid ranges I think is very, very key to the success of great teams for sure.
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B
There's another element of it that I think is really important also to understand is like the math is the math. Like I 100% agree that the mid range shot is low value. Like I said, like, let's call it like just a concept. But like if only 14 in the teens, 400 something players are efficient versus league average possession, it's not a high value shot. Okay. But there's a human element on both sides of the ball that I'd love to hear your take on. One if you know, as most defenses do, we want to protect the rim, right. We want to take away threes, run people off threes. But if Shays punching your lights out with mid range shots, it gets frustrating.
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You're human, it gets frustrating. As a defender, you're human.
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And so what happens is you may not even leave the game plan, but you're leaning, you know, you're thinking instead of playing, being instinctive. And so there's the human element defensively, which I'd like to hear how you can break teams a little bit by getting them out of their defense, by picking people apart here and then the other side of it Is offensively, like a lot of players get their rhythm in the mid range. You can't. And like I've talked to some coaches in the league who, you know, have been in the league for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years and they always say you always want to find a way to get your best players shots. And a lot of times that's just spacing, get them go one on one, get to their spot. But how can you say I want to get them a shot, I want to get them buck and then say, oh, but by the way, you can't take that one. Don't do these ones.
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Yeah, don't do that.
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Don't do these ones. You know, like, could you imagine, like, I mean when I coached, like I would have loved KD to take 8, 10, 12, freeze a game. And he's capable, just rising up over people, but he gets so much rhythm and confidence from the mid range and he's such an assassin in there. Like it's a big change that you're probably not always going to net out on the positive. Right. And you can say that about a lot of guys in our league, league. The top, top players that they know, hard dribble, feet set up in the air. When you get that one to go every other shot, it's their rhythm is there. Right?
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A
It's their rhythm. It's their rhythm. You can't take away the guys rhythm because the numbers speak for the masses. It just can't happen, you know, it just can't happen. And to go back to the first point, the first question, as far as the defense, like you have to be able to live with something.
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B
Yes.
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You know, you, and, but definitely it takes a, like discipline. It takes a lot of discipline. Like when you, when you go into a game and say, okay, we want to give up contested twos, like if we give up contested tools and they make contested tools, then you tip your hat to them and you know, but it's just certain guys.
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Yeah.
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That are literally assassins at contested tooth. Shay being one of them. Demar DeRozan being one of them. Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irvin. These guys are, those are layups. They'd much rather you contesting than not contest.
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Right, right.
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It's literally their rhythm.
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Yeah.
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You know, and that's, and it's a challenge for, for, you know, a player when you're guarding these guys and you say, shit, I just made him take a contested two and he keeps making it.
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Yep.
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And you have to realize you like, I'm not making him take Contested shoes.
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Yeah, right.
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This is what he wants to do.
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Right.
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And you just got to hope he missed. And you hope that as a, as a, you hope that it wears, you hope that it wears over time, you know, to where, you know, fourth quarter come around maybe because you've been doing things offensively, maybe putting them in action, you know, maybe, you know, being a little physical with him up and down the court. And you hope that towards the fourth quarter maybe that contested to that was going through the first three quarters maybe becomes a little short. So it's definitely a mind fuck for you, you know, as a defender.
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B
And then also at the end of games, you know, the analytics, you know, in many scenarios becomes less important. Yeah, points are points. Points are points in the games. Right. Like we're talking two, three, four minutes left. You don't have the opportunity to always pick and choose your shot profile.
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No, you do not.
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Right. Especially when the responsibility is on your shoulders to carry this team home. If you're finding space in the mid range, which obviously teams are going to try to run you off the line, teams are going to try to pack the pain at the rim. They're also going to try to spray out on, be on a string if you fire it out. So sometimes you as the lead guy, you have to have the confidence to start, stop, pull up, make those shots. Because a bucket is a bucket when you get down the stretch. So.
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Absolutely.
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It's a very nuanced conversation. It is, it's a nuanced conversation. One of the other things I was thinking and I think you're like some ways you, you can play many different ways, but the one outlier here, and I think you're like at times your profile, when you want it to be, can be like, can mirror a little bit is James Harden. So when he was at his best, like there was, it was, it was rim free throws, grip of free throws, fooling everyone. You know, unbelievable downhill ability with size, athleticism, his crossover playing on the perimeter, the step back threes and then the floater, which you know, like is debatable. Like some of those are probably mid range shots. But he was so good at the floater too that he didn't take really, you know, those.
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A
Right, right.
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Like I can't think of many more. You know, at times Steph can be a little bit like that, although he'll never devoid, you know, he's just so good from three and running off and then defense makes a mistake or overplays him. He's getting to the, getting to the paint. You know, you can do that when you want to, but you also obviously love the mid post or elbows wherever you needed to play against a certain team in different eras even.
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Yeah.
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But it is fascinating to think like how. What it says to me is how hard it is to stick to that shot profile.
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Yeah.
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Like it's almost impossible. It is like James is like the one kind of outlier that lived off that. And no offense because he's still great, but as he's not quite as explosive anymore, he's taking more midis.
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Yeah, Right.
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Like, what does this all say to.
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Us about midiant shot?
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Right, right. How hard it was for him then and how what an outlier he was shot profile wise and efficiency to now when he's not quite, quite the same athlete still to, you know, an all star caliber player.
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Right.
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But you get taking more midis. Right. It shows like one. It's almost impossible. That profile too. And then when you got to get your team a bucket, you can't just say, I'm not shooting these. So it goes back to like, like the creator has to have the freedom to make and take those or I don't think you can win.
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A
Well, I mean, you just said, I mean, you can't, you can't have the, the name of the creator. If you're not gonna let me create. And that is, you can't give me a blank canvas, but then tell me you can't paint over in that corner.
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B
Right, right, right, right.
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A
I can't be a full artist, then how can I fully reach my potential as a full artist? If you're gonna. If you're gonna lure me on how much I can use the canvas to paint.
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B
This episode is sponsored in part by American Express. American Express has taught me that finding the perfect restaurant is a lot like finding the perfect play. It's all about timing, research, and sometimes a great recommendation from someone you trust. Being on the road so much, I've become pretty particular about where I eat. My ideal spot is usually a local owned place that has great energy, where you can enjoy an amazing meal while having a great conversation. Sometimes it's that new fusion spot everyone's talking about. Others it's just a little spot a friend recommended. With amexgold, you earn four times membership rewards points on purchases at restaurants, on up to $50,000 in purchases per year. So you can get rewarded for dining at some of the hottest restaurants in town and earn up to $100 back annually on eligible purchases at U.S. rESI restaurants. Enrollment required. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com withamex. You know what I love more than the perfect assist? The perfect story. And I've got just the one for you. Audible knows that there's no greater thrill out there than yours. And Audible's gripping new original that'll have you right on the edge of your seat. Jon Hamm stars as Jack Bergen in the Big Fix, a Jack Bergen mystery. Think you know the story of Dodger Stadium? Think again. This noir thriller follows Jack, an ex FBI agent brought back into the game by an old flame to investigate a murder case. That's not what it seems. What starts as a simple homicide investigation unravels into a complex web of conspiracies surrounding a Mexican American community and the construction of Dodger Stadium. Trust me, this one's a game changer. Featuring an all star cast including Ana De La Reguera, Omar Epps and Aaliyah Shawkat. With a special appearance from John Slattery. From the brilliant mind of John Mankiewicz and the director Aaron Lipstad, comes a story that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Like any great play, timing is everything. And now's the time to listen. Go to audible.com thebigfix and listen now. That's audible.com thebigfix there's one piece of vocabulary or terminology that we use in the NBA that you may not be familiar with and that is a three level score. So essentially a three level scorer who's someone who can shoot from deep score, from the mid range or score at the basket. I think that's all you need to know in this episode. Hopefully you learned something new. And of course, as always, I hope you enjoyed Mind the Game. Please like and subscribe. And then we both had this responsibility to close games at the end of a game. You got to create for your team.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You want to feel in control. Right. You know the feeling, you know, when you don't have it, when you're like for whatever reason, the rhythm, the matchups, the defense, you know who they're not guarding, whatever it may be. Throw something, a wrench in there, you're trying to find control again. Right. You know that was important for me was to be able to find control by finding a midi or two, finding the soft spot in the defense, getting some separation from someone making it to okay, I'm back, like so the human side of the responsibility of your top players to win a game down the stretch, you want to feel control. Can you talk about that feeling a.
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A
Little bit when you're not in control.
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B
Both.
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A
Yeah. I mean, obviously, we both have been very blessed to be in that position, to be in control of late game situations, games that come down to the wire. And it's definitely a great feeling when you, like you said, have that control. And, you know, if I go to this set or if I run this or find this. Yeah. If I get spacing, I know exactly how this is going to pill out. I know exactly how it's going to pill out by whatever action that I do. I know the reaction.
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B
You win your matchup and. And then there's a domino.
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A
It's a domino effect, you know, and that's a beautiful feeling. And like you said, sometimes, every now and then, you out there and you like, yes.
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B
Shit.
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A
It doesn't feel right.
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B
Right.
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A
It doesn't feel right either from I'm not in a rhythm or, you know, you might have a teammate out there that's not in a rhythm, but he's on the floor, and you figure, okay, where do I put him to be able to be best for the other three guys? Or the defense has been, you know, they've been nagging me all game and I don't quite have a feeling, but still the ball is in my hand. I still have to make a play, you know, and it's like, where do you get it from? And you just. You get it from past experiences.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You get it by trusting the work. You just put in the joke. You know, that no matter what type of rhythm you've been in, what type of game you've had, that you mentioned earlier, the 10,000 hours have been put in. Not saying that you're going to hit the game winner. Not saying that you're going to actually make the fucking play that makes you guys win. There's times where Even with the 10,000 hours, you may have a costly turnover. You know you plenty. You know plenty. Yeah, plenty. You may, you know, feel like, okay, this is the shot that I finally felt a good rhythm and I got my feet up underneath me and it didn't go in.
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B
You can have the feeling and not win.
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A
Right.
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B
But you want the feeling, right?
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A
You want the feeling. I would much rather have the feeling. Good and bad.
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B
Yes.
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A
Just give me the feeling. Let me try to figure it out. That's all.
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B
You know, it's a. It brings back a lot of memories, I think, also, like, you also, when you have that responsibility, you build up enough scar tissue, you know, that I can still make the play. I can still make the play. I haven't made any, but that takes time, that takes mistakes, that takes failure. And it takes, like, the mentality of, I'm gonna keep going, I'm gonna step up again. It's almost like you have to have that, wear that badge of honor. I'm willing to fail. Yep, I'm willing. I've had a terrible night. I still have gotta step up. And I fail again when it counts in this game and be able to go back in the locker room, hold your hand up next game, ready to do it again. If you have that mentality, you build the scars, no question. You're able to overcome the tougher times.
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A
No question.
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B
Get right back out there and then before you know it. Like, I always felt like, for me, there became a time in my career where close games down the stretch, it felt like a drug. Like, you're on it, everything's vibrating. You just feel at home. Like now we're really playing, and you're almost like you're a character, you know, you feel, like, powerful.
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A
Like, this is what I've been waiting on.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
This is what I've been waiting.
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B
The rest of the game you're playing and you're competing, but then it gets heightened in those moments, and I think that has to be developed through time and scars and failure. And if you have the right approach, you speak a little bit about. And I know it's a little bit off the mid range, but it all boils into the human element, the psychology of it. A little bit about your way of getting through the early part of your career. I mean, you had a lot of success early. You definitely have failures when you're young.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the most important. Like, the most important thing for me early on in my career was just the. The feeling of not wanting to let people down. I had to get over that 100%. You know, when you don't know quite how to handle that emotion, it's like, oh, shit, if I miss this shot, I've let a lot of people down. Or if I make a bad play, I'll let so many people down. I think once I got out of that. And it took years, sure. Like, it took years for me. Like, even, like my. My second time in the finals, like, my first year with the Heat, like, I wanted to win so bad that I also had the fear of letting so many people down.
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B
Yeah, I came here, we put this thing together, Pat, and if it doesn't.
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A
Happen, I'll let so many fucking people down. And and the hours that I put into my craft, the commitment that I gave to my craft wasn't even like. It wasn't even the thought which should have been. It was more like, oh, shit, if I go out and I make a mistake, I let them down. If I go out and fuck up, I let him down. Instead of just like, going out there and just be like, who the fuck gives a fuck? They don't care.
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B
Right, Right.
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A
You are in a position because of that, and you are. And if you do so be.
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B
And you still feel bad. Yeah, get it done. But now you have the resolve to push through.
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A
You have the resolve.
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B
Next time I'm doing the same.
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A
Right, Exactly.
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B
It's interesting. It's funny, because I think. I think I'm probably butchering this, but I think the Chinese call it a paper tiger. I think the Buddhists call it a double arrow. And it's basically, you know, Mark Twain has this quote, like, I went through an awful lot in my life, and some of it actually happened. It's like our reaction. Right. It's our reaction thing. So you're reacting not to all the work you've put in.
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A
Right, right.
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B
You're reacting to the perception.
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A
Yeah, yeah, the perception.
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B
I don't want to let people down. I think we're similar in that way. Whereas I think other people, like. Like, I don't think Kobe gave a shit at all. I think that's what part of his brilliance. I don't think Michael gave a shit. Like, that's a part of their brilliance in a way. Other people, we get to get the scars through that stuff. Right. And so I was the same way. I think you perseverate on the negative rather than. I'm building towards something here. I'm building towards something here. I'm putting in the time. Rely on the work. Don't rely on the perception. This false reality. And I think it's funny. I mean, we're getting into the mind here a little bit.
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A
Yeah, for sure. I mean, mind the game.
- [28:41]
B
Mind the game.
- [28:43]
A
No, I mean. But I agree. Like, it takes like, you know, like the best teacher in life is experience. And it just takes. It takes time. It takes time for you to depend on. Everybody is a different individual. Everybody's mindset and the way we're wired.
- [28:58]
B
Yes.
- [28:59]
A
Our wiring are all different. And it takes time for. It takes more time for certain individuals to get to that point to be able to have that. You need the scar tissue built up. Able to. And able for. For you to be able to persevere through.
- [29:13]
B
That's right.
- [29:14]
A
And it took me time, you know, six, seven, eight years into my professional career to finally get to a point where even if I did kind of zone out a little bit, I knew. Okay. Exactly how to, like, okay, I know how to get back in there. I know how to get back into the rim of things. Like, it was a flick.
- [29:32]
B
I was focused right away.
- [29:33]
A
Refocus. Oh, I've been there before. Before. Yeah, you've been there before. Okay. What is it that you can refocus? You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, I think it. It took time for where. You know, for me to get to that point and. But I think experience, man, we all. We all will get to a point, you know, for the younger generation ball players, when you guys coming up, men and women, you will. You wouldn't know when that moment is for you, right. That it just clicks.
- [29:58]
B
Yep.
- [29:59]
A
And you. And you. You be able to go about it that day, that night, you playing, you.
- [30:04]
B
Can always lean on that.
- [30:06]
A
You can lean on that. And no matter if you win, lose, or draw that game, you know, if you're putting that position the next night, okay, boom. I know what to do now.
- [30:12]
B
That's right.
- [30:13]
A
And if it don't go all that way, okay, we play again in two days. I'm ready for that moment. We all get to the point where we feel it, we know it, and we know how to handle.
- [30:25]
B
How did you handle. I remember earlier in your career, you used to take criticism for not taking the last shot when you made the right play. Like, how did you handle that? Because that always bothered me. I was like, I mean, he could force something right now he's drawn two and a half defenders or he can make the right play. Like, how did you navigate all the noise versus being true to who you are, which is a basketball player that plays with intelligence, feel just the right read.
- [30:51]
A
I just stayed true to what got me to that point. Like, I knew I was taught the game the right way as a kid because when we won, we worked. It worked. It really worked. Like, I realized that, like, when I got into the NBA, I won three state championships in high school. And I thought it was something that, like, all NBA players did. I thought, like, if you were one of the best players in the world or you're one of the best players on your high school team, like, you should be able to win a state championship. And I got in the NBA, and it was a lot of guys that never won a state championship, that never won an AAU Nationals, finals that never won. And I was like, oh, my goodness. I absolutely was taught the game the right way, and we all succeeded and have fun doing. Like, it brought so much enjoyment to be able to play the game the right way if it was. I never averaged more than 30 points in high school. I think my highest average was like, 27, 28, I believe.
- [32:00]
B
Sure.
- [32:02]
A
I know for sure, because it wasn't about that. Yeah, it wasn't about that. I could have averaged 50 points a game if I wanted to, probably my junior and senior year. But it was never about that. It was about how can I maximize my. My teammates, how can I get the most out of my teammates in order for all of us to be successful? And we came here to win state championships or we came here to win AAU tournaments and AAU national championships, like. And I felt like in order for me to win ultimately in the pros, even though it's a different level, I couldn't give up the essence of. Of what made me fall in love with the game and how I was taught. Even if the criticism like it. It. It still goes on. Like it happened in the 2020 Finals when I played in the finals and, you know, I had an unbelievable game and one of the games to close out the heat in the finals, and, you know, I drove the ball, two or three defenders came, and I found Danny Green wide open for three, and he missed it. And we went to a game five, I believe, or game six.
- [33:04]
B
But you take it every time, and.
- [33:06]
A
I'll take it every time. I take it every time. And people like, why didn't you take the shot? He should have took the shot. There you go again, passing the shot.
- [33:14]
B
Like, never been there.
- [33:16]
A
Yeah, it's never, you know, it's one of the, you know, I don't know the quote verbatim, like, but Theodore Roosevelt headline, you know, the man in the arena.
- [33:25]
B
Man in the arena.
- [33:26]
A
The man in the arena. It was like one of my favorite quotes about being mirrored with dust and everything thing. And it's always the guy that's not in arena is the one that's the loudest and talks the loudest. But you've never stepped foot in an arena, so how can you ever challenge what I am doing?
- [33:43]
B
It's like, you know what? It's a cool. I think I talked before about like the little ingredients along the way that make you who you are. You don't know why, but this thing ended up being really important later. It's like if you just look at your profile as A high school player, like essentially biggest, strongest, fastest, most athletic kid out there. But you still were taught the game the right way and valued playing the right way. Because if you had just been score, score, score, score, score, you'd have never been LeBron James.
- [34:12]
A
I would never have been who I am.
- [34:13]
B
Right.
- [34:13]
A
And I also don't think I would have played this amount. I would never play this amount in years either.
- [34:19]
B
It's a great point in that you constantly are changing how you're playing. You don't have to have the ball all the time. Your numbers are like MVP caliber numbers, but it's not with the ball all the time. You're adapting and playing like, I don't think you can do that if you weren't someone that tried to play the right way all the time or single minded on scoring. One dimensional. There's many facets, many dimensions. I've said it before with you here with Luka, having the ball, you know, a lot of the time, your willingness to space intelligently, to cut intelligently, to screen intelligently, to play the short role. Like not everyone.
- [35:01]
A
Yeah.
- [35:02]
B
Not everyone is willing or able to adapt.
- [35:04]
A
Yeah. And that's what I hope that, like a lot of the people get, you know, from our conversations, watching me play. Like, you don't have to be, be the leading scorer on the team or you don't have to be the guy that's handling the ball all the time in order to make an impact. Or you, you can be that guy early on and then be able to have a growth mindset. Like it's okay to still be able to make an impact at a high level and change your game over the course of time and vice versa.
- [35:38]
B
Develop into. If you don't, if you, if you don't play the right way, have the right motives, it's harder to evolve into a better.
- [35:45]
A
Yeah.
- [35:46]
B
Player. A winning player. I think that's a big word. Winning.
- [35:50]
A
No, I agree.
- [35:51]
B
Winning plays. Winning players.
- [35:52]
A
Winning players. Winning players. Yeah, for sure. Like just having that mindset that I am willing to do whatever, you know, I am willing to grow and be uncomfortable in order for me to still be successful and be, you know, a thing on the team.
- [36:14]
B
Uncomfortable is a great word. Like that's, that's, you know, or another way to say it is like, what are we avoiding?
- [36:20]
A
Yeah, right.
- [36:21]
B
As human beings, but also as athletes, that we should always be young players. Always ask yourself, what am I avoiding? What do I not want to do? Because it's uncomfortable, because it's out of my comfort zone. It's not something I identify with.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah.
- [36:36]
B
Don't let your, you know, this perception of your identity ruin being a winning basketball player.
- [36:44]
A
Oh, that was. That was. Don't let your perception of what you think your identity is ruin yourself of being a winning back. That was. That was a bar right there. We got. Have to put that on the hoodie. Yeah, we got to put that on a hoodie right there. That was amazing right there.
- [37:13]
B
Think it's good, man.
- [37:15]
A
We. We on. Good, bro. Yeah. I don't really have anything you got to do.
- [37:24]
B
You got to go rest, put your feet up.
- [37:26]
A
I'm going to get something to eat. I'm going to go to the hotel, keep my feet up. There you go.
- [37:30]
B
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