← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
A journey of transforming public spaces into creative expression - Stephanie Boutari
00:56:22
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- [00:01]
Radim Malinj
Before we start today's episode, let me tell you about my latest adventure. Introducing Lax Coffee Company, a specialty grade coffee company inspired by creativity and creatives. The debut range is sourced from some of the best farms in Brazil, Peru, Colombia and Africa, offering beautiful flavors and notes. Our single origins and house blends are roasted every Monday. For next day shipping, visit luxcoffee.co.uk and use code podcast for 15% off your first order. And yes, there's exceptional merch too. Luxe Coffee Company is where art meets exceptional coffee.
- [00:51]
Stephanie Guattari
In a way, I'm like somehow bold, more brave and less brave. Because in the beginning I think I was more fearless in the way that I had nothing to lose and no one really knew me as this artist. But now that I've just been doing this properly, I'm an artist and I developed a reputation. There is that kind of fear sometimes that still gets the better of me. Or anxious. What if I'm not getting better? Or what if this project isn't as good as the last one? In some ways I think I'm in my head a little more, but I do feel like I'm more confident. I'm better at putting my foot down and I'm better at going for things that are outside of my comfort zone.
- [01:41]
Radim Malinj
Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radim Malinj and creativity changed my life, but it also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests share their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learn to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? My guest today is a multidisciplinary artist based in Waterloo, Ontario. Her practice focuses on creating large scale outdoor artworks for businesses and public spaces. She blurs the lines between art and design, and her creative process draws influences from a range of subjects including architecture, Pop art, pattern design, nature, street art, and immersive and interactive art. In our conversation, we talked about the years of suppressing her creative identity and about a time when she reconnected with her artistic roots during her master's thesis by exploring color, surfaces and architecture. It's My pleasure to introduce Stephanie Butari. Hey Stephanie, how are you doing?
- [03:22]
Stephanie Guattari
Hey, I'm great, how are you?
- [03:24]
Radim Malinj
Yeah, it's nice to have you on the show. That's a conversation I've been looking forward to because I know a little bit about your story, but I don't know too much. So I'm quite happy to unravel and learn more about you. But for those who might have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:40]
Stephanie Guattari
I'm Steph Guattari. I'm an artist, primarily paint murals. A lot of large scale, colorful work using spray paint or acrylics for commercial clients and cities, architects, all kinds of people. I'm based in Canada, in southern Ontario. That's where most of my work can be found.
- [04:01]
Radim Malinj
Excellent stuff. Your story is somewhat non linear into what you do today because not only you didn't grow up in Canada, you didn't always do mural work. So let's rewind it back. And yes, you were. The first encounter with creativity was. And how did your career grow?
- [04:21]
Stephanie Guattari
Yeah, it's a very complicated indirect way that I got to murals. I had definitely never thought I would be in this career. So I guess I have to rewind quite a bit back because art was always a really big part of my identity. I've always loved art. I loved to paint, I loved to draw since I was a child. And it was something people noticed too. And people always encouraged that. My parents and friends and family, it was just the thing I was known for. And in high school I got a lot of attention for my art and. And that was basically the only thing that I got attention for, to be honest. It was just art. It was like that's the art person. I would just walk around with a big sketchbook and all that. But then when it became time to think of careers in university, there was a bit of a shift because even though I took a level art and my teacher, she was amazing, she inspired me and she wanted me to go to a top art school and she gave me the most amazing reference letter and all that. And I wanted to do that. But at the same time my parents, they never said no, don't do that. But they said it was a bit riskier and they encouraged it to be more like a hobby. But I definitely, I don't want to blame them because they never said I wasn't allowed to. It was just more like what they encouraged. And my personality, I'm always being the kind of person that just plays it safe and also wants to please everybody at the End I thought I should just be take the most secure route. And not only did I think, okay, I'm going to pursue architecture because that seems like a creative career that's a little more financially viable. But also I decided to go to Toronto because that's where my sister was and I had some relatives there. So I just kind of like made my decisions based on that. Nothing to do creativity or anything like that. Even though I did get into some art, art schools. But anyways, at the end of the day, so I decided to go to the University of Toronto because it gave me the best scholarship and it seemed like the best university. So I did that. And then within my first year I wasn't really happy. I was taking a bunch of random courses to prepare to enter the architecture program. And because I took a level art, they didn't allow me to study art in my first year at art courses because they are like, oh, you already have the credits for that. So I was missing art. And at the same time, coincidentally I met someone that she wanted to do architecture as well, but she was contemplating switching to the University of Waterloo. And at the time I didn't even know about it because I was new to Canada. Long story short, we both ended up transferring to Waterloo to do architecture because after doing some research and investigation we found that their program way more hands on and studio focused and less about sitting in a lecture hall. And I thought, okay, that seems like more me, more creative. I still stayed at architecture and I finished the whole program which was like five years long, including co opter and then I also did master's after that. So it took me a really long time to switch to art. I was in architecture for a long time, but by the time I was doing the graduate program, the master's program, it was a lot more independent. So you could basically pick any subject as long as you could tie it back to architecture. And so at that point in time I was really missing art, missing this sort of side of me that I had suppressed for a really long time. Like I did enjoy a lot of aspects of architecture and design, but I didn't feel like it was playing to my strengths. I started with the theme of color and color in architecture and the surfaces of architecture and the use of paint and how that can transform architecture. And in so doing all of that research, I discovered murals and public art and street art and I got really obsessed with it. So in a weird way, architecture actually brought me to murals by bridging my love of art and architecture. And that's what my thesis was all about. And afterwards I graduated, I was fine, went to go work for an architecture firm for a couple years. And then the thing is, while I was still a student, I painted my first mural. And the way I did that was I basically saw a wall and I found out who owned it. And I reached out to him and I said, hey, can I paint a mural in your building? I had no portfolio or experience doing that, but luckily he was really enthusiastic about the idea and he even covered my paint costs. And so what happened was the. The reason I mentioned it is because even though after graduating I. I was working as an architectural designer, that same building owner had another building that he hired me to paint properly. So I would go and do that on the weekends. And then as an interior, I was working a lot of interior designs, like for restaurants and stuff. And one of my repeat clients at the firm I worked at wanted me to paint murals in the spaces that I designed. So I sort of basically, over the course of a few years, painted maybe five or so murals in my spare time, just on the weekends. Coincidentally, my relationship with my work was also changing. I was starting to work more and more with a different. I had a different boss that I was working with. And then the types of projects I was taking on were less in line with my interests. When it came to architecture. I always enjoyed thinking of public spaces more than fancy houses. It was just more of my interest because I felt there was more room to be creative and think about how people experience the space. And I see a lot of overlap there with my little murals and public spaces. But when I started having to work on these mansions for the uber rich in la, I don't know, it just wasn't. It felt like it was just killing my soul. I don't know. And then at the same time, so there was the work I was doing, the person I was working with, and then I would see that the firm I worked for would hire artists to do art commissions and murals in some of their buildings. And I realized I was getting so jealous of this guy that I would see come in and out, like I could do what he's doing. I know it sounds bad, but I felt like I could do what he was doing better. And I realized, am I in the wrong place? I feel ungrateful to have this job, but I still didn't have the courage. I felt like, you shouldn't take this risk. This is like a good career. And so I still stuck with it until my stress levels started becoming so intense. That I developed really bad acid reflux. So I was just constantly having high acidity to the point that I had to take medication for it every day just to not be in pain. And then one evening I was working late and I started having stomach pain. I just assumed it was that, so I ignored it. And it got worse and worse and worse to the point where at home, like I couldn't even move it. And my husband was just like, that's it, we're going to the hospital. Like, no, they're just going to make me wait. He's like, no, we're going. And it turned out my appendix had ruptured. And it was a good thing I was there because we needed to operate. I had left it so long, that could have been dangerous. And then I took that as a sign that, hey, you know what, like, maybe this is the result of so much stress. I, I need to leave this job.
- [12:06]
Radim Malinj
What an answer. Full of packed of little, little nuggets of how your life has taken you to where you are today. I'm going to take a step back because you talk about being excited about public art and being excited about the bits that are not for the rage. I said more for the soul, kind of creating sort of pieces that people can fall in love with. You mentioned that you moved to Canada to study. Where did you move from and how did your upbringing potentially inspire what you do now?
- [12:35]
Stephanie Guattari
Yeah, so I grew up in Bahrain. It's in the Middle east, near Saudi Arabia, to those of you who don't know, because it's a very small country and I grew up there as an expat. My family's from Egypt and like a lot of other expats, we would go to either a British school or an American school. Was what most expats did too, if they wanted to go to English speaking school. And my parents always prioritized that we would speak English really well. And then after graduation, a lot of people, most of us expats, would go back to our either original country. Like a lot of my schoolmates were from the UK or just other countries for their university education. And sometimes they go back to Bahrain. But that's not to say that no one stayed, but most people left because there was just much fewer options for education after high school in Bahrain. It's just a very small country. So the plan was always that we would study abroad. And also my family were applying to move to Canada as well. And my sister was already in Canada. But at the time I was considering the UK Canada and the States, but Canada was just the most affordable.
- [13:48]
Radim Malinj
In the end, you were, Stephanie, walking around with your sort of big portfolio, and you had the arty one. What were you drawing? What was your first explorations? Like, how we get lots of stories of people like we draw. And some of us take it further. Some of us know some people who are creative now didn't consider themselves creative in the first place. Same with your identity as a creative person, a creative child. What was your exploration? What did make you move? Where did the creativity come from?
- [14:15]
Stephanie Guattari
Honestly, just everything. I was just excited by everything. And we would be given themes. So we explored all kinds of things in school, in the art program. Figures, buildings, architecture. I even did this one project where it was all really abstract, almost sculptural work inspired by planets and the sort of texture of the moon and, yeah, just portraits. I dabbled in everything. Nature, florals, yeah, you name it. And I think one of my most favorite projects that I did in high school was when I was looking at the way you're. You perceive the painting, like playing with depth and optical illusions, in a way. And I even created a body of work where you needed to look at it with those glasses, with the red and blue. Blue. And how that would change, I don't know. I was just always fascinated by that.
- [15:14]
Radim Malinj
This is interesting. I think I'm tracing your style over the work that you're doing now to these explorations because you're talking about death and illusion and that kind of stuff. Textures, moon, all of that stuff. I think this is where we're making the connection between the color, the textures, the architecture. I think this is where I'm starting to unpick the line that's potentially been there all along. Especially. I'm trying to see it now. But, you know, the first person who got into architecture because it was seen as the safer choice. You've heard the episode with Illustrator called Murugaya, and he followed the same path. He also ended up being an artist because him being an architecture made him equally ill. I don't think there was a burst appendix somewhere along the way, but there was a burnout. And I think it's interesting because I've got, especially on this series, the recurring theme of people going, okay, my parents allow me to do anything, and I've chosen business. And there's the people who go, all my parents, they don't necessarily think that being an artist is the most viable choice. So I did something really sensible, only to become an artist anyway. This is becoming really the theme of these series. But when you were doing the stuff, when you print, when you did your five murals as you were studying and then you asked the sort of owner of this wall or this building, hey, can I do your mural or can I do a mural on this wall? How did you pitch it? Like how did you come across? How do you knock on someone's door, hey, by the way, I think your wall needs a mural. Is there prevalence of more public art or murals in Canada more than anywhere else? I appreciate it's sometimes hard to see it if it's all around you. Take me back to how do you knock on the door and say, can I paint your board please?
- [16:51]
Stephanie Guattari
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [16:54]
Radim Malinj
If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your.
- [16:58]
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- [17:00]
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- [17:38]
Stephanie Guattari
Toronto and Montreal have a lot of murals for sure. They have a good street art scene, but where I was for university, definitely not. And most of these smaller towns and cities don't have now it's becoming more and more. It's growing for sure, but at the time, definitely not. There's and some towns have really strict rules about the type of art they want. As a mural, it has to be historical and heritage colors. And in the area like I was in Cambridge, a lot of these towns here have these cut at bleak industrial buildings or it's just actually so a classmate of mine, he's a developer now, but we had this fake business called Bleak Solutions. So it was this thing where we'd identify a building that was so crapfully designed and we would imagine, oh, that could use a neural or color or some kind of revitalization for its bleakness. So we called it Bleak Solutions. But basically so that was like a drive. So this building that I saw, it was right across from the school of Architecture and it just looked like this concrete wall. It just looked so boring. And I was like the first thing you see when you approach the area to park. And it was just I would get tagged sometimes. So I felt like the way I suggested the idea it was in his Benefit, like, he'd be getting essentially free art and beautification, and it would deter graffiti, vandalism, usually. Sometimes they'll tag stuff, but usually most people won't tag artwork. They'll just tag advertising or something. So he saw that as a benefit to him. And I did show him my portfolio. Portfolio or just regular paintings on campus that I did in high school, so he could tell that I had some abilities. But he did know that I've never done a mural and I never used spray paint. So it was definitely a learning curve. But he was very supportive, and I'm very grateful for that because some clients like that I've had since then. It's been a while. Not a lot of them have that kind of personality.
- [19:50]
Radim Malinj
Do you remember how it made you feel that you were doing the thing that was potentially very liberating from architecture itself?
- [19:58]
Stephanie Guattari
I felt very scared because I was not only trying to do something for the first time in front of everyone. So it wasn't like I could just look like an idiot in my own private studio. And not just in front of the public, but in front of all my peers, because the school of architecture was right there. So all the students, the teachers would pass by and see me doing this. And so I felt, yeah, very nervous. Like I was on stage kind of feeling. But it's. Once you're in it, though, you just have to keep going and pushing through. So that I was just very, very motivated. If it weren't for that driver motivation, I would have completely crumbled with depression.
- [20:42]
Radim Malinj
I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Like, how to make yourself uncomfortable in front of everyone. Especially by your own request, I think, or by your own decision. I think that's pretty fantastic. Because when you look back, whatever the feelings you were going through, that a cocktail of emotions and I mean, it's. That's a super bright thing to do. Okay, I'm going to ask this person, can I do a mural in front of all. Everyone who knows me, just more or less. That's where I think careers are made. Like, when you think about it as we're living now in a world of impatience, like, that's full of noise and we've lost the innocence. And I think having this kind of thing, you taking your time, you grow in it. You're doing it bit by bit. And yeah, I think that's a super, super interesting point, I think, that you told me about. There's no way back, really. Basically, murals are a school of architecture. Everyone can see it. Where does it take you next?
- [21:31]
Stephanie Guattari
Yeah, so actually I was doing it as part of my thesis. It was like a sort of exploration. So I did document it and I had a plaque go up with my name and all that. And then I also had a gallery exhibit with other paintings that was like it was connected to. So that was very nerve wracking. But I felt a lot of support from my professors and stuff which I was worried about because it was a very rebellious approach to the architecture. The way our program was focusing on paint and color was just not a typical thing people would do and I was worried people would find it. But that wasn't the case and they took what I did seriously and I did a lot of research to support it. So that worked out well. And then that the owner of the building, as I said, had reached out to me later and a developer had also in the area seen it and hired me. So I actually it just naturally picked up and every mural would just lead to another mural, which was really fortunate. I guess that's one nice thing about doing a mural, especially the more eyes that get to see advertises itself in a way so someone will see and be like oh, I saw that. And if you put your name. I don't always remember to put my name, but yeah. So that was really actually how the inquiries started coming in because of one than the other. And that would happen while I was in the architecture job. And when I started getting more inquiries for people having seen the murals that I did, it did give me a bit of courage also to leave the architecture. Although I'll admit in the back of my mind I still thought of architecture as a safety net. I thought if this doesn't work out, I have a degree, I have experience, I could always just go back to architecture.
- [23:28]
Radim Malinj
I think we can be all thankful that you didn't go back because you've been creating an amazing work ever since. But I think that's down because you close one door and you're hoping really should I? You're hoping that it's going to work out. Should I let that door ajar? Is there some way back? But I think me, everyone who's done similar thing to you has learned that going forward, being focused and actually doubling down on your decision, that actually makes you feel good is the way to do it. Because like you're stint with architecture with a ruptured appendix wasn't exactly the one that you wanted to repeat it. So if you were telling me about the first mural and how it snowballed, it's one of the most amazing things because it's there. Like in the world of digital portfolios, you can scroll over 100 images in a minute. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Done, done, done, done, done. But if you're driving past something and if you build up a relationship with a piece and you go, oh, you know what? Yeah, no, it clicks. Because sometimes, like the perception of creativity, some people get it straight away, some people fall in love with stuff straight away, and some people get it in six months or in a year. Oh, now we need a solution now. So it's great to hear, like, how that all worked. What I want to know next, because I'm curious and nosy, is the development of your style because you've got very sort of geometric style, multicolored. Yeah. And there was the reason why I was asking, like, what was the sort of elite influences, like, where did it come from? Is it rooted in something specific or is it in a place like Waterloo and Kitchener? Did you get to see lots of other murals? Did you get inspired by other people or was it self driven, sort of signature style? How did your work develop?
- [25:03]
Stephanie Guattari
When I started, did not see any other murals around me. The inspiration I had was from researching online and from a trip to New York. But around me locally, I didn't see much art at all in terms of the style. It was definitely at the time driven by these sort of architectural ideas. So that's how the geometry started. Because I was basically trying to argue that paint is a material of architecture. It's not just the concrete blocks or the steel studs. The surface has a big impact on everything to do with the building's identity and how you experience it. So I was using this 2D surface, the thin film of paint, to create a 3D effect that was like my approach. So I definitely, you know, I would use these kind of geometric shapes and shadows and stuff to play with that effect and challenge how you perceive a material. So that's how it started. Like, if I started art more conceptually, say, oh, I really love painting fish, or I like painting flowers for whatever reason, and then I bring it to murals, it's just a matter of scaling it to suit the site. Whereas for me, it was almost like I was thinking of it as an architectural design. And so sometimes even when I'm coming up with artwork that had I've been given a specific theme, I'm still thinking of it as part of the architecture. And then if I'm not given a theme, I tend to go more abstract. Because I think of it as part of the building. But the thing is, I don't know. I will admit I'm in a weird crossroads in terms of figuring out my style. Because doing this now for seven years or so, I've had some bigger clients and a lot of more commercial interests. So the style and the art has definitely swayed, according to Groteur. So it's not always necessarily the same style or. Yeah, I don't know where I sit. Like, sometimes I wonder, am I street artist or am I the fine artist? There's like the gallery world and then there's the more graphic design. Commercial world. Yeah, it's tricky.
- [27:23]
Radim Malinj
Let me see. So I've got a question for you. So you mentioned clients and murals. And obviously something that is as permanent or semi permanent as a mural on the wall, it's obviously there for longer than, let's say, advertising campaign on social media. So how much of an input, how much of a planning goes into such piece with rounds of revision, like mood boarding, planning, thinking, freedom of limitation. Like, how does this work? Because I guess people have got their ideas. How do you navigate it?
- [27:52]
Stephanie Guattari
I always start off by keeping things loose and sketchy. I don't want to get married to an idea that they'll hate. But also just getting a good design brief in the beginning is a part of that. But I generally, I don't do projects where they prescribe too much. They're just going to say, we want you to do this and this and this. It's just not for me. I need to feel like I design all of my work and I need to feel like I have some creative freedom. But I'll definitely work with certain parameters and I keep in mind their brand if it's say, an office or certain themes. And then in terms of the work that goes into it, it's just in stages. So I give them sort of preliminary ideas and I get their feedback and what direction they like, or they like the sort of mood board I'm creating. Then I prepare first drafts. Usually I go up to two to three drafts, refining the concept until once it's approved. Then there's a whole other bunch of work which is preparing to translate that, selecting the paints and all that.
- [28:56]
Radim Malinj
So you mentioned a design brief. I'm curious, who does normally commission you and how do they prepare a design brief and how much of that design brief in the end changes? Like how. Because obviously you said you like to keep it loose and you don't have to be told to do, like, exactly how they should Be when I'm doing it. Because you, in a true way, you're not a designer per se, you're more artists. Because obviously if it needs to be your way, that's your signature style coming through. But how does that initial process go? Like, how much of a deviation from their first initial idea to the final piece often happens? Or is it quite close to debris?
- [29:32]
Stephanie Guattari
I do want to make the client happy, and I involve them in their feedback in the process. And it often makes for a better artwork, I think. I don't mean to just be like my way or the highway, but in terms of brief, I've had very different clients. Like, for example, a small business owner or like a cafe or a restaurant or an office where, say it's an insurance company, like, they're more corporates. They'll have a different type of brief where, say, there's more stuff about their company or their brand that they would incorporated versus, like the cafe that I just thought of. They just wanted until they colored fold them. And then oftentimes I get hired by interior designers and architects. So I do need to consider the design of their building that they're designing to make sure it works well with that. But in all those cases, or say a bigger client like Starbucks, they said, oh, we want it to be botanical, but that's the extent. Like, they didn't say, oh, and to include coffee plant in it somehow, but they didn't say has to be exactly like this way or that way. That's like the extent of the brief. So I'm happy to work with those kind of guidelines. And then when I get feedback like, oh, could you make tone down the colors or could you make it brighter or things like that, or could you maybe add this in? That's fine. Yeah. And usually. And sometimes they'll come up with something that I wouldn't have thought of. And it can really enhance the work.
- [31:04]
Radim Malinj
How much of your voice do you use in a creative process? Do you interject? Because as you say, you want to keep them happy, which we always sometimes try to keep them happy, which is sometimes a good idea. But how much of a verbal discussion is there behind? Because I guess you've got your portfolio, you've got your signature style. And it varies. It's not just the lines and geometrical style, but the opening conversation. And do they come with references of your work or does it come from a point of curiosity when they say, is there sometimes an open brief to actually think, what can we do with this? So I'm curious when someone Realizes we need a mural and we need you. How does it work?
- [31:43]
Stephanie Guattari
It really varies and there have been situations where I'm just given. It's like carte blanche or just do what you think, and I love that. So it really depends on who the client is. Sometimes it's through referral or word of mouth, or they've seen a specific work, or they look me up and they like something on my website, which actually sometimes isn't to my favor because, like earlier on, I definitely was less selective with the work I take on and I didn't have as much of a signature style. So I did a really big variety of styles and I would just show it all on my website and then someone would see, oh, I liked what you did in this restaurant. Can you do that here? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't want to do that again. So I'd remove that from my portfolio. There was just so many things in my mind I'm trying to remember mural.
- [32:32]
Radim Malinj
Is semi permanent, but you can always paint over it if you don't like it. But from experience, especially with architecture, like, is there a level of anxiety or are people excited about their mirror, Are they like, this needs to be right or anything goes?
- [32:46]
Stephanie Guattari
Generally, they're all very excited. Usually the most stressful thing is timeline and schedule, like scheduling availability and all that. And also this different perceptions of the longevity. So I do sometimes have to reiterate that it's still paint at the end of the day and even if I'm using good quality, it does have a lifetime. I actually remembered something I wanted to say to your previous question, and it ties into this question to do with anxiety and how far I'd bend myself to meet the client or what my voice is, how strong my voice is. So generally, I think I always try to be as accommodating as possible, but I'm never, ever going to do something that I don't want to. Like, I wouldn't stand by like, that I don't support creatively. I'm going to be ashamed of this. I can't do that. I remember there was a client, they wanted something geometric and math inspired. It was actually for the university and it was going really well and they were really happy with the design. But then very late in the game, an idea was thrown in about putting people in and I just felt like it wouldn't fit at all with what I had done or the context. I found a way to very politely argue from a design point of view why I don't think it would work, and they totally agreed in the end. So I think, because also when they're hiring you to do art or a designer, that's what they're hiring you to do. If you don't use your knowledge and expertise to an extent that you're not really doing a job.
- [34:26]
Radim Malinj
I think sometimes there's a conversation, like, why are you fighting for this? Like, why you really care? Like, why'd you do this? I'm like, because there's a good chance we can keep this good. Or we can. There's a good chance we can muck it up. I think that's the chance. But you mentioned timeline. I've spoken to Jim O'Brien a few months ago, and she's known to do hair work, and she uses other people sometimes to do some of the work. Whereas you do most of your work yourself.
- [34:53]
Stephanie Guattari
Yes, although recently I've hired more people.
- [34:56]
Radim Malinj
Ah, good. Because. Yeah, because I know for me that it can be quite strenuous work because it doesn't appear at first. Right. You don't always think about how much time it can take to paint a mural. So let's talk about time, like time and headspace. That once you get to cross that line, you got your design signed off. Okay. I think that's when the real work starts. Right. So how long does it take to bend the mirror? And how physically challenging is.
- [35:24]
Stephanie Guattari
Always takes longer than I think it's going to take. And you think I'd be better at this by now, but nope. I seem to not remember certain factors that affect time, like being tired or needing to take a break or eat and things like that. But generally, obviously it depends on the size, but I'd say two weeks for a mural. So if it's a massive mural and it's outdoors, it's going to be longer because I have to factor in interruptions, weather, or sometimes construction. And if it's just a really small wall inside, an office like that could be much shorter. That could be a week or a few days even.
- [36:09]
Radim Malinj
You paint in murals in Canada? You might see where I'll go with this next. Do you paint in winter?
- [36:16]
Stephanie Guattari
Inside? I do a lot of interior murals.
- [36:19]
Radim Malinj
Okay. But thinking about outside work, I guess that's impossible. At what point does the paint stop sticking to the wall? At what sort of temperature?
- [36:27]
Stephanie Guattari
With spray paint, you can use it. Colder temps than latex or acrylic paint. Actually, I'm a friend. He'll paint even when it's snowing outside. But for me, the problem there is my comfort level. I usually don't paint outside after November, it gets too cold.
- [36:47]
Radim Malinj
That makes sense. How do you keep yourself going? Is it a meditative state? Can you focus on the work? Obviously, because it could be helpfully monotonous. I'm assuming that that's what happened. But do you ever get physical fatigue? Where do you get mentally exhausted? How do you keep yourself going? And what do you listen to? What occupation? Headspace.
- [37:08]
Stephanie Guattari
Once I get into that kind of flow state, it's really great. And then I can just listen to music or podcasts or actually I like to listen to audiobooks too. But it usually takes a few days until I'm in that state when I'm just starting a project. The first couple days are very stressful because I have to adapt to the site and there's always something unexpected that I have to deal with. So I've just learned to accept that now that the first day I'm not going to accomplish anything. And usually if there's construction, if it's a construction site, the level of stress and unpredictability is worse. And then for some reason last year, so many of the projects I did were construction sites, so it was just a little much. Yeah. But when I'm not interrupted by weird construction stuff and when I know what I'm doing and it's working, I really enjoy the process. And I actually forget how physically tired I am. I'm just lost in it. And it's usually the next morning I wake up and I'm. My body's sore, I'm like, ugh, from painting all day. But then I get back into it. It's the same thing. But after doing a big job, I usually need a week to recover.
- [38:22]
Radim Malinj
That's an interesting point, because what you mentioned, I need a few days to get into a flow state. That sounds like the time that flow states needs to sort of bed in, especially under such a long term basis, because pretty much just playing that sort of creative endurance, like there is the time that it takes to bed in and then it's time to take some to actually enjoy it. And I think what you describe it like that waking up the next morning, this is what professional athletes do. Endurance athletes, like they roll themselves to the ground every day, sleep for five or six hours, wake up not really wanting to do it again. But as soon as you get back in the flow, just the mind and body just takes over and okay, we're doing this. So you mentioned a sentence or you mentioned a phrase which usually comes with just building an architecture. So you Said it takes longer than expected. And this is what I've learned from the builders. It always takes longer, and it always costs more. So I think the ability of a physical sort of work, especially outside of on building sites and construction sites, is related to it. Think, like, there's many different elements in this. But you said earlier that you sometimes get carte blanche and you enjoy it. Tell me about it. Because it's the kind of thing that we get as creative. At first. You want to have kind of carte blanche, and we want to be let out of the chains. You want to be feeling free, like, okay, everything's a possibility. But sometimes it also creates a lot of paradox of choice. Like, you've got too many choices, and how do you actually settle on one that is also the one that's accepted? So how does it work in your case?
- [39:54]
Stephanie Guattari
That's very true. And I do love the creativity that can emerge from having specific constraints. But in terms of the carte blanche feeling, it's usually because I have other ideas that I want to experiment with or that I've started experimenting with. So whenever I get an opportunity to just do what I want, then I look back at that sketchbook or that list of ideas and like, oh, maybe I can try this one out here. So I feel like it's an opportunity to test out ideas that didn't necessarily have a project to go with them in those ways. Like, it's been really creatively helpful. Actually, I think during the lockdown was when, creatively, I did the most experimenting. I. I haven't done anything since then. I've just been go, go, go. And I feel like running a business made me a little more inhibited creatively. So I'm really looking to get back to just doing some work that's just more personally driven, because I do feel like that kind of work and experiments will fuel the work I do for clients because it gives me new ideas, and I can take that to projects.
- [41:09]
Radim Malinj
So this is interesting because it could be perceived that you are being creative almost every day, and obviously you're doing the thing that is your business. It's your career. But it's interesting to hear that there's a creative experiment you would like to do, because, of course, a lot of us had time to do things differently in lockdown. And I want to ask the next question about what it was like to do murals in lockdown, but let me take it to the personal experiments. What is it that you are not doing that you wish you'd be doing right now?
- [41:41]
Stephanie Guattari
So many things, but I just really want to explore a lot of just visual thing like ideas like patterns and color combinations and I want to explore some three dimensional aspects, just very specific ideas that I don't really know how to describe. It's just like visual ideas that I have a sketchbook and drawings that I just want to explore at a bigger scale.
- [42:05]
Radim Malinj
I'm trying to think of it from almost like a music perspective. Do you paint it in your studio? Do you make stuff with spray paints? Or is it more sketchbook based or procreate stuff like how does your sort of ideation work? Because obviously your output is so physical and so huge in most cases. Like how do you do that sort of explorative stage, especially for the personal satisfaction.
- [42:26]
Stephanie Guattari
Lately I haven't had. For the last year or so I haven't had access to a studio. So it's been very just small sketchbook based because I'm just working from home. But I recently just got a new studio space. I still haven't finished setting it up but I'm very excited to get back to being more messy and expressive with my experiments. But back when I did have access to a studio, yeah, I would do a bit of both, like drawing, sketching, also digitally on my iPad and then with a lot of scrap materials because the space I used to work out of was also a workshop and shared and they would have scrap materials all the time. So I would take that and just paint on it and wouldn't be too precious about it. Afraid of wasting an expensive canvas. Yeah, and that kind of thing. And I'd like to explore other mediums too actually. Textiles has been on my list and.
- [43:19]
Radim Malinj
Things to explore because you've doubled into creating products. Like you applied your sort of large scale thinking into small products. What did that feel like? Is it something that works in tandem or did you feel like it wasn't big enough as a medium to explore?
- [43:35]
Stephanie Guattari
I felt like it was a nice outlet for a different part of my creativity that just needed to be released. For lack of a better way to describe that, I really enjoyed it, but I just didn't know how to manage my time between that. Like I just overbooked myself with client work that I just wasn't able to dedicate enough time to the side hustle of doing my products. So I paused it for a while but I do want to resume it. I've been itching too.
- [44:07]
Radim Malinj
Yeah, sounds like something like there's an experiment for the new studios. You put quite a lot of work in your Social media presence, especially on Instagram, I guess we've been documenting your work does get people to actually see and appreciate how much work goes into it, right? One of my friends, Craig Black, is a famous sort of acrylic fusion artist, and I think he spends a huge budget on having people filming stuff, like actually documenting how the work's done because actually explains to people what he does. How much of a factor is a content creation when you make in the mural, do you get somebody from the building side or from the construction site to help you film it, or do you have friends like doing this? How do you create content?
- [44:50]
Stephanie Guattari
I need to have a better strategic approach to it, to be honest, because oftentimes I'm just so caught up in getting the work done that I just don't have time to even document myself or I just take photos afterwards. But when I do have the luxury of I planned my time and actually, like, have the energy to do this, I'll consider things like what kind of video I want to make, because it depends really on the scale and how the angle which you could view it and all that. But most of the time I just. I'm the one documenting myself. I'll just take clips or I'll leave my camera on a stand. In the past, I have a couple of times hired someone to video me and put together a video. And that was cool. And I'd like to do more of that, for sure. It just requires planning in advance because you have to book them. And so many times I'm just. Time management is definitely my biggest area. Stuff that I need to improve on. And just like always, just in a hurry. So, yeah, that's the challenge. And then in terms of Instagram also, I'm a little bit inconsistent. But I do find that when I do take the time to post, I get a lot of good engagement. And especially early on, I used to think, oh, number of followers, that was like the metric I will measure my success. But I realized, no, not really, because that's just one metric. It's like how people feel about your art. You can't see that from another. But when people reach out to you, when people give you positive feedback, that is so much more important. I think in that sense, Instagram has been great as a way to be a part of my community here and connect with other creatives too.
- [46:40]
Radim Malinj
What I should have asked you earlier is like, how do you transfer your pieces that are, let's say, made in on an iPad? Do you have a projector? Or how do you map Out a big mural on a big building. Like how does that work? Like was the secret, was the technique.
- [46:55]
Stephanie Guattari
There's a few different ones. I do have a projector, but I don't usually use it for the bigger murals because it would be good for maybe a 10 by 10 foot wall most. And if it's like very detailed or I recently did a canvas that needed to be. It was very detailed and symmetrical. So I actually use a projector for that. But usually I'll just use measurements. If say, if it's a geometric or abstract mural, I'll have reference points. So I'll mark points where I know the line starts or something like that. Or I'll create a grid either using. Sometimes there's a grid existing so there's the concrete blocks for the mortar, the bricks. So that will be my guide. And I superimpose my image on that digitally and that's my map that I look at. And then you can do also like a doodle grid. So if there isn't really any kind of lines and it's a very plain looking wall, you can just make your own grid with random doodles. Take a photo of it and then superimpose your artwork and have that and then you go back in and you know how to line it. You think I'll put the pen. Hopefully that makes sense. It's all about creating reference points.
- [48:09]
Radim Malinj
It definitely does. And I think the more you talk about it like the more it comes back to actually numbers and actual sort of reasons why do things should be because just like Murugaya told me, he now finds himself like pitching on projects or creating projects where involve especially public art, like involves a lot of architectural knowledge about materials, numbers, projections, calculations, that kind of stuff. And what you're describing is still very much in touch with architecture. Like the way you sort of studied that logic because you said like using the 2D world for like a 3D effect. That takes us back to what you were describing about depth and illusions where you were drawing as a child. So how did you. And I'm going to just be talking about the process. Like how much of a inspiration do you get from the building? How much of inspiration do you get from the sort of surroundings and what does it entail? We talked about carte blanche and we talked about other ways to do it. And sometimes there's a brief. But when you look at it, let's say from different perspectives, from different sides of the street or different views, how much of that goes through your mind to make sure that it looks Good from every side.
- [49:20]
Stephanie Guattari
That's definitely a big factor that I consider. The context, the architectural features. And sometimes they'll actually inspire aspects of the design. Thinking of one that was inside a building. And a lot of the surrounding features influenced the design. So there were these circular hanging lights, there was this corrugated kind of pattern. And I brought those lines and shapes into the mural. Sometimes the influence is more color based or say there's an architectural feature that I want to hide or that I want to draw attention to that will affect the composition as well. Or actually there's one where the mural was on a wall with three big windows right in the middle of the wall. But I just used those windows as part of the composition, so they're integrated. Or one where they wanted me to write the name of the town in big letters and the town was St. Jacobs. But there was a window that was awkwardly placed. But I found a way to integrate the window into the to the lettering. So things like that. And then sometimes if it's a bit more complex, if it's multiple walls or hallways, and it's not just straightforward canvas, I'll actually model it on the computer. I'm used to doing 3D models from architecture, so it actually helps me visualize because I'll take my drawing and then I'll put it in the model and then walk around it and see when you look at it from different angles, what it looked like.
- [50:54]
Radim Malinj
Let me ask you maybe slightly uncomfortable question. Did you ever paint a mural and someone said, actually, we don't like it. Did it ever happen?
- [51:04]
Stephanie Guattari
No, but one time they just asked me to change the color of one, like, small piece. They were like, oh, you're rendering. It looked a bit lighter or darker. I can't even remember. Yeah, I know. It's a quick. Yikes.
- [51:17]
Radim Malinj
I'm very happy to hear that. Because you always find yourself as a creative going through all of the checkpoints and then go, yeah, no, you don't like it. I'm like, where have you been for the last three months? Five months, but it happens. Yeah. Obviously if you're painting on the wall, it stays on the wall. So I was just trying to check because sometimes people got their opinions and this is opinions from clients and there's opinions from passerbys. I'm getting a sense of where you've been and where you're heading, what you're excited about the future of your career. Obviously you're gonna do the experiments in your studio, but do you have a sort of long term plan? Like how you see yourself how you see your work in the future, in the world.
- [51:53]
Stephanie Guattari
I don't have a specific long term plan. I find it difficult to plan more than a few months ahead. But I do have dreams of certain projects that I'd like to do sometime. Like I'd like to do a really big wall, like multi story building. That's always been a dream of mine. I'd love to participate in a mural street art festival and also just do a little more in the kind of art gallery world, do some shows and self driven projects. So I'm taking steps to try to make those things happen. And also I'd like to travel for artwork. I've never done any project outside of southern Ontario, so that would be a dream. So just another country or even Quebec or something. I don't know BC if you made.
- [52:51]
Radim Malinj
A career out of making murals in southern Ontario, I think there's a lot of spaces for you to explore. But that sort of neatly brings me onto one of the points from earlier. Because how much do you think you've changed from the person that has reached out to a building owner asking to do a mural? And obviously now you've got your wealth of experience, you're a different artist now. Yeah. How do you see that? How different do you feel now to the person before?
- [53:19]
Stephanie Guattari
In a way I'm like somehow both more brave and less brave. Because in the beginning I think I was more fearless in the way that I had nothing to lose and no one really knew me as this artist. But now that I've just been doing this properly, I'm an artist and I've developed a reputation. There is that kind of fear sometimes that still gets the better of me or anxious. What if I'm not getting better? Or what if this project isn't as good as the last one? In some ways I think I'm in my head a little more. But I do feel like I'm more confident and at the same time I know I'm contradicting myself, but more brave in the sense that I'm better at putting my foot down and I'm better at going for things that are outside of my comfort zone. Like I still will do that. And also a little better at saying no to things that they don't align with where I want to take my career. Yeah, it's like a mixture of things.
- [54:22]
Radim Malinj
I think when you're describing it's just a natural progress of how we are as humans. Because to learn how to say no, I think it's one part of bravery. When you look at the anatomy of opportunity, sometimes saying no is better than saying yes because you can have a bad yes and you can have a good no. So I think that sometimes better. But I think, yeah, your work looks like someone who is comfortable in their own skin, creating work that is admired and is colorful and is joyful. And I think the people of Southern Ontario have got a jewel in the crown. And I think, yeah, I'd love to see where it takes you because you're doing fantastic work. And thank you for sharing your story with me. It's been marvelous.
- [54:59]
Stephanie Guattari
Thank you so much.
- [55:11]
Radim Malinj
Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions or even suggestions, so please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.
- [56:00]
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or your regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.