B (3:31)

So when we spoke to clients, it wasn't about portfolio, it was about ideas and principles and the way of working and how brands can exist in the world in a much deeper way and how we have to understand the audience, which seem quite commonplace now, but again, back then you could talk about aesthetics or you could talk about strategy, but the overlap and the bridge of that was very interesting to us. And more than anything, it was about our creative voice finding our story. And the reason for starting with a blank sheet of paper and some principles was to figure out what that was. And we've worked really well together. I think one of the things that probably makes us successful is that we respect each other, listen to each other. We have our own points of view.

A (4:18)

When we think about it. Agencies often walk into meetings with proof of work portfolios showing that they have delivered. They've got case studies awards, but Apova told me that they've been running this process of talking over portfolio or conversations over portfolios ever since they started. They started with showing nothing and talked about everything that matter. They chose conversations of a credential philosophy over portfolios. It can be terrifying, but it can be liberating. You have to be confident in your ideas and principles to walk into a room empty handed, but armed with your linguistic acrobatics and knowledge. Because this approach forces both agencies and client to focus on the future rather than the past. It's a difference between hey, here's what we've done as opposed to here, how we think. And in the third moment I had to ask Upper about bravery and how does he see it? Because they've been one of the agencies that have used this term bravery for quite some time. However, that mindset and that view is changing.

B (5:27)

I think it's like anything, it's a sticker, it's a bumper sticker, or it has become. And with anything, whether it's about the diversity and eclecticism of a team, the voices that are seen in industry, the designs and brands that you might be involved in, it's through action that we see that actually manifests. So to say it is one thing, but to do it is so much harder. And it comes down to conviction, that belief in yourself. And we don't come into the studio and go, you know what, we're going to be brave today. We're just going to fucking cool work and we're going to try and feel excited and find the joy in it for ourselves.

A (6:09)

I had to ask this because I had such respect for Apurva's honesty here. I mean, they literally created this Brave Brands language that became a massive in the industry and now he's told me that they took it off their website and just used it as one of the points within the websites because it's been germinated, it's been hijacked, it's been used. And that terminology, when everything gets rounded, it loses meaning because a lot of us catch up things because we use them and see that talking about brave brands, it makes us look braver. But in the conversation I very much questioned the fact, are we talking more about bravery then we are actually brave? Because as a pro, very bright. They literally removed the statement from their website because most people started using it too. Not because it was the question of being copied, but it's a question of actually being true to their mission. It's a perfect example of how genuine insights can get commodified and lose its power. And what started as authentic philosophy became almost an empty marketing speak, not for them, but generally for the industry. And the tragedy is that real bravery, their practice of pushing boundaries gets buried under performative language. The next point we talked about was disrupting on recipes, but I think there's.

B (7:32)

An opportunity to confound that. And that's the thing that I think keeps us up at night or propels us, you know, is the catalyst for us is how we disrupt our own recipes. You know, whether that's for us at Dixon Maxi or for our community, the industries, to ask those provocative questions that say, well, where are we going next? And how do we articulate, create new ways of expressing things that are meaningful and different? And I think, you know, it's, it's a challenge for us in our team as much as anyone to disrupt our own recipes. You know, we have ways of creating things we have a process and it works to create brands at scale. But I don't think that's good enough. You know, you kind of can settle and, you know, we are always asking ourselves the question of, well, it works.

A (8:25)

I think this is the probably most honest thing I've heard a successful creative says. Because most agencies, most designers, we all develop systems and processes that work. And as I said earlier, we are not always too keen or welcoming to change. But here's what most of us don't talk about. That same systems that we create can become a creative prison. It takes enormous discipline to question your own successful formulas. Most people double down at works. Dicks and baxie actively sabotage their own comfort zones because they're essentially creating internal friction to prevent external irrelevance. This explains their longevity. They've been disrupting themselves for decades before disruption became a buzzword. But it's not about it changes sake. It's about staying ahead of your own patterns because it is the courage to break what's working before it breaks you. The last woman is the one that inspired the title of the episode, Design for Life. And Opover said in a couple of moments in our conversation how they see the meaning of designing for life.

B (9:35)

The core things that we thought about was design for life, you know, so for our lives personally, it's baked into who we are. But also design for life, as in the millions of people out in the world. And that design has an opportunity to do things that moves the world forward. You know, there's human progress in that.

A (9:53)

So when he said this, something simply clicked for me. It's not just a clever wordplay, but it's a beautiful dual meaning that captures everything about how design they think. In the previous moment he talked about disrupting recipes. In this moment, they're not just designing brands, they're designing their own existence. And considering the ripple effect on everyone else, this connects the intimately human with the broadly social. This is why their work feels authentic rather than manufactured. And it comes from genuine life experience and consideration for real human impact. It can be said that too many agencies can treat creativity as intellectual exercise. But Apulva is here talking about creativity as a life practice. When design is integrated in how you live, not just what you do for client, it changes everything. I really cherished my conversation with Prova. We covered so many more topics than just highlighting in here. So if you haven't had a chance and you're curious, please check out a full interview in the previous episode and I will see you again next week.