Paula Zuccotti (3:20)

Very good. Vadim, thank you so much for having me here.

Radim Malinage (3:23)

What you do is truly unique and your story, your work, your social connections, your way of working is, is super unique. So for those who may have never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?

Paula Zuccotti (3:38)

Thank you for that intro. I'm Paula Sukoti. I'm a designer, originally an industrial designer, become ethnographer, trends forecaster, strategist. And I work at the intersection of anthropology, art and culture. So I'm kind of like an evolution of one thing after the other one. So I don't know what the end result is there. And I don't know if it's like designer plus ethnography plus that or slash, to be honest. But I'm happy with what it is now.

Radim Malinage (4:09)

I think they call it multi hyphenated creative. I think there's this beautiful part that we can be whatever you want to be these days. And I think, as you say, I don't know where I'm going, but it's the eternal curiosity that's taking you from one thing to another because we do still live in a world that likes to put labels on people. Like, who are you do the one thing? Or how do you explain yourself? Whereas I think having a problem sometimes explain yourself, what you do is a good problem to have. So from your accent, people can sort of potentially guess that you from South America, you were born in Buenos Aires. And I do have the habit going back to the beginnings a little bit. So what is the making of multi hyphenated designer that now lives in London?

Paula Zuccotti (4:53)

I was born in Buenos Aires. I studied industrial design there. And then I had the opportunity to apply for a postgraduate, a Master's degree in the UK and through the British Council. So I applied, I won that scholarship, I came here, I came here. I think I spent half of my life in Buenos Aires and half here. Although if you tell me I'm 100% Argentinian, but a Londoner, if that's something. And so I did a master's in strategy Design, Strategy and innovation, which got me into working at one of the London's best product design and innovation consultancies called Seymour Powell. I started working there after my master's and I worked there for 12 years and I became the head of research and director of futures at the company, looking after everything that had to do with the creation of new products and services, inspiring that vision through the lens of human behavior, culture and trends. I worked there for 12 years and then I left 12 years ago to set up my own business and creative practice. So yes, that's kind of like I'm where I am now. I'm in a. 12 years working independently as a small business.

Radim Malinage (6:12)

Love it. What are the makings of industrial design in Argentina? What was the surroundings that got you intrigued, curious about product design?

Paula Zuccotti (6:21)

Yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think I studied product design because I wasn't sure if I wanted to study architecture or graphic design. And somehow in the middle, looking at the careers, I was like, oh, industrial design is something in between. I mean it's a bit of a naive view. No, no architect or graphic designer would agree with that today. But I went into a world that I did not know. I think like I wanted to study something that I knew nothing about. I went to a business school, my parents were in banking and economics. And so I jump into a new world and I think those I. That is really scary at the start but always being in a place where you are like in Spanish we have a phrase that is called sapo de troposo which is like a frog from another pond. Like it's a bit silly, but it is that idea. So the making of an industrial designer there I went to the public State university which is kind of like one of the best in the country. And it makes really resourceful, smart people as a result. You know, you study with great teachers, in great environments, with no resources, no financial support, in very bare class conditions. I'm talking like 20, 25 years ago. And it creates, I mean that scarcity and willing to study and thrive makes a really great community of people coming out of it. So it's a long degree there, it's like a five years degree compared to here in the UK that it could be like three to four. So you do go through from engineer to conceptual to visual. It's good, all rounded.

Radim Malinage (7:51)

You know, my first Argentinian guest by you, my second Argentinian guest to tell me the story how the education in Argentina was pivotal to their life. Because you said I learned from great people. And I had Ezekiel Abramson on the show on a previous season and he was very much talking about like how top illustrators, top designers where teaching them or they better professors at a university and you're like, how would you do that? To me the cross between architecture and graphic design makes perfect sense. That is product design, isn't it? I mean that is a beautiful way of actually that how you marry those two worlds because, yeah, the world you didn't know, it's got philosophy follows you pretty much till today.

Paula Zuccotti (8:34)

Yeah, I like that. I like that. Beautiful. Yes. Again, when I came to England, I came to the master's degree and again I was like from another world, I've always felt. And I'm always like having a start at places where I'm like, shy and observant and I try to figure out my voice in that new place and I don't walk into a new place loud, if you know what I mean. I'm kind of like trying to find how do I and my views and myself connect. So that was the best intersection between myself and that place. And I think that applies to projects, to collaborating in group teams or. Yes. Studying or coming up with how do I connect or giving a talk somewhere. When I give a talk the first five minutes, I'm kind of like probably a little bit nervous. I don't even have time to prepare it because I'm giving the talk actually at the moment. But it's finding that connection between you and the audience and the place. And I think when I find that, I feel the most comfortable and I can fly in there. So I think it takes a while.

Radim Malinage (9:39)

It's really interesting when you say shy and kind of taking it all in from the sidelines because it's usually the giveaway of someone's feeling of inferiority or someone sort of need to assert themselves in a situation that we they them become loud on purpose just to assert themselves and make sure that they get seen. It's almost like that hierarchy of the people in the room. Whereas personally like seeing things from the sidelines and actually not necessarily being the first person that needs to speak. When you give yourself time to an opportunity to understand and observe, you're always going to make a better first step. You know, your next step is going to be much more informed rather than the one saying like, you know, am I here? Am I here for the right reason? Am I doing this because. Yeah, because we got similar stories. I mean, I've been in the UK pretty much the same amount of time as you and I remember coming here on a slightly different mission. You were coming to study Masters. I came here record shopping and just enjoy the culture. What was it like for you? Because you said you were here with the sort of scholarship from English Council, going into the unknown, did you have many expectations? Did you go with eyes open wide? Did you ever doubt it, it was the right decision?

Paula Zuccotti (10:52)

No, never doubted. I didn't know that I was going to come and stay, by the way, I was coming for one year, but that's what happens. No, I was kind of full of expectations, but also expectations with no boundaries. I didn't have the low and the high. I just had the enthusiasm of what I was going to do with myself with this opportunity. And during when I was doing the master's degree and I'll do this little bracket to tell you this because it has to do with what I ended up doing for living. I came across an article on a magazine, it was Viewpoint magazine that talk about design ethnography. And it was a complete new term. Nobody, this is, I'm talking 2000, the year 2000, nobody was talking about. And it was like a really new methodology that companies like Apple, Xerox, Intel, Impaloalto were sending anthropologists to what at the time they considered to be other cultures. So you know, instead of designing from America to the world with an American mentality, they will send anthropologists to what they consider farther afield like Far East Asia or Africa or Latin America to study culture, to learn how people live, to then inform the design process. And I read that during the master on that openness on an article and I was like, wow, that this is exactly what I would love to do. In a way. I wasn't an anthropologist, I wasn't that person, I wasn't working for any of those companies. But I was like, this is everything that I like. I like product design, I like culture, I like people, I like traveling, I like immersing myself in the life of others. So when I had the opportunity of doing a placement at Seymour Powell, which then became my 12 years job, I pitched the idea of bringing that method and design ethnography. I said, look, I will learn about this during my masters, I write my dissertation on it and I'll come back here and I can stay and develop this for you. So it was a winning situation because I got to create that in the context of industrial design and innovation consultancy, not necessarily, you know, like the Palo Alto companies. So that was the beginning, I would say.

Radim Malinage (13:04)

I mean, and the concept of daring creativity or daring forever, you've created through your curiosity, you've created your future role. Because reading about design ethnography and being excited about it, obviously you started joining dots together. I like that you could see that feature there because you're already thinking about design process differently. To my opinion, as a graphic designer or an architect, you're in this Venn diagram bubble on your own thinking. I'm Gonna join all of these curiosities, all of these ideas and all these visions and wants in a way. So where does your curiosity come from? How do we join these dots together? Because you've created your own future based on something that was inside.

Paula Zuccotti (13:49)

I think what I always did as a child, I would say observe, you know, like, I would just. I don't know. I love just seeing people doing stuff, you know, and that's what I do today. But to the point that I also. I was an only child growing up. Now I got siblings now, but I was an only child growing up. And I also spent a lot of time with my grandmothers that were looking after me in a very kind of quiet environment. Can you imagine? Like, grandmother and me, only child, beautiful relationships, but very silent, very quiet, very contemplative, you know, And I think that gave me a lot of time in my head and to think, it's like looking at things and processing and coming up with my own ideas. I don't remember. I remember I used to observe my grandmother doing things like folding wrapping paper and just like, little acts or the way that she stored food in the fridge. And then I end up doing that for companies, helping them create better packaging. But it is that kind of like observations of how I used to remember. I love my. I have. One of my grandmothers was really simple and austere, and she didn't surround herself with objects. And the other one could have even, like a sanctuary on her bedside table of little things and things. And just observing, you know, had two different lifestyles. They were like very similar people with a very similar background, but they lived really differently. And I don't know, I remember observing that and making something of it. What do I see of that? What is that telling me about my grannies in a different way? So that became, I think, when I realized that ethnography was the connector of all of that. And I could apply that to informing the design process by looking at those insights of how we do things. That was the connector. I don't know. I never thought about it, what I just told you now, but if I did, yeah, I did think about my grannies before in that way, but not in that.

Radim Malinage (15:42)

That's why you're here, to join the dots, because.

Paula Zuccotti (15:44)

Thank you for the questions, by the way.

Radim Malinage (15:46)

No, no, no. This is interesting because I'm already getting the hint of where we heading with your story of you watching your grandmother folding paper, wrapping paper, doing things.

Paula Zuccotti (15:57)

It's just the way we did things. You know, my granny and I Used to phone a telephone number, like 113, to figure out the weather and all of those things and how technology changed those things. I mean, it's fascinating from a kind of behavior point of view of what we do every day.

Radim Malinage (16:13)

So you've done 12 years with Seymour Powell. You had a beautiful title of Head of Researchers and Head of Futures. That feels like an empowering job title. Then potentially comes with lots of responsibility, like Head of features, like, no pressure, go tell us. And then you went on your own. And one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is because you've got this fascinating project called Everything We Touch. I didn't really think much about this concept only in passing when I had someone called Bjorn Kosovsky on this show, who's a Swedish designer who happened to have an album cover or singles cover designed by Andy Warhol. And Andy Warhol was apparently famous for creating time capsules. Apparently, Andy Warhol pretty much took everything every year and put it in a box and put it away and started again. And me and Duong obviously got chatting about books and sort of what we do as creatives and how we put stuff together. Whereas way would you do, You've taken a hold of, like, the concept of time capsules and twisted that concept on its head and created something so fascina that it fills me with so much curiosity and so much intrigue. Because as another observer of humanity, don't go to the gallery. If you want to see how people behave, watch them on a high street. That's my mantra. You've created something which is utterly fascinating. So I want to know, where did the idea of Everything We Touch come from? And how is it taking us till today?

Paula Zuccotti (17:40)

Yeah, well, for Everything We Touch is the concept is tell the story of someone by showing a day in their lives. So with Everything We Touch, I photograph every single thing that a person touches in a single day of their life, from waking up to going to sleep. And I have done this. I published it as a book in 2015, and I've been doing this for more than 10 years. So the idea is, can we tell, you know, can we tell someone's life by just looking at all the objects that they touch in one day? And what will that picture tell me about them and about us and about our society? And it is so revealing. And because in this world where we associate ourselves to a selfie or a curated side of our personality, where you may say, oh, Paola, what are your favorite five things? And I will come with my best t Shirt, record player, my best book, and my jewelry, I don't know. But everything we touch is like an X ray of your life because it is everything you do in 24 hours. So while you may have your favorite T shirt on, you also touch Tupperware and cling film and house keys and medicine and a bottle of wine. And it's kind of like everything that you need in a day to live, survive, have fun, express yourself, cope, work out. It's just a really good unit, if I may say. I had to come up with a unit in order to tell these life experiences. So that's the story. So I photograph people on their everyday lives, and everyday lives goes back to my studies as an ethnographer, when I studied everyday life and sorry, I felt that I needed to explain what everything we touch was before telling you where it came from. Going back to the life as designer of ethnographer I've been working on the design of products from the conceptual and vision point of view since 2000. So I got to work on design of TVs, remote controls, speakers, mobile phones for companies like, you know, Nokia, lg, Samsung, and those products are not here anymore. Many of them, they were disappearing, becoming obsolete in our lives. When I was researching this in 2002, we had four remote controls in our TV rooms. We had a set top box, we had a digital box, we had the vhs, we had the dvd, we had the hi Fi. And so I've seen the changes working on this field for these sorts of clients since 2000. I think things changed and I was thinking, I need to capture this. I need to capture how our lives are evolving. So that was the first point and it was like, okay, how can I document daily life? So that was the beginning. And the second one was that in the work that I do most times you see people as consumers of or users of and which that's great. I also wanted to look at life without filters. So rather than going on a mission for Nike or Ikea or Google or around the world, looking at the world through their eyes, I just wanted to look at the world through the eyes of what it's like being a chef, a baby, a geisha, a cowboy, see the new narratives that emerge when you see life that way. Normally in the world of marketing and market research, you kind of believe your own narrative sometimes and you see the word as people that buy your narrative and people that are rejecters of your narrative. So I just wanted to see what happens when 150 brands come together in your life and you're not carrying the flag of any of them. So that was the second more rebellious point in a way.

Radim Malinage (21:27)

Right? I want to know when did the first picture photograph collection came together? Who was your breakthrough? Who was the first person? Did you come up with the format straight away or did you adapt it a few times before you settled?

Paula Zuccotti (21:42)

The breakthrough was my best friend Clarissa, and she's Argentinian too, and we used to live nearby and she happened to have a shared studio in her backyard. And her husband, her ex husband now was a photographer. So not having thought about that, that he was a photographer, that was like, oh my God, then we can also do this. So the first point was like I was telling her I have this idea. And she was like, that's amazing. And I was like, but who in earth, you know, who is going to lend themselves to this experiment with me? How am I going to convince people to keep a record of everything they touching one day? How is this going to happen? And she was like, I'll do it. And I was like, really? I'll do it for you. So we did it together and I remember she was going through, you know, we set the day that we were going to record every scene that she touched. And it was beautiful, you know, like she was taking her daughters to school to tap dancing lessons, is the uniforms, is everything, is her day, is her gym class, is her going out, is the restaurant she went to. And I remember she was like, but Pau, the mailman just came and I used a pen to sign an envelope to do. Yes, I want that. And my hair band that I touched in the morning, the first thing before I touched toilet paper. And I, you know, yes, that goes to. And the clean film. And we started to realize the power on those little things that you don't think about, but they are necessary to your everyday. So when we did together and then it was like, okay, we need to get all the things. And we used her husband's shed, her ex, Jake, who also taught me how to do a photo as such, because yes, I was, you know, taking photos, but not to that level of how technical it is. So it was an amazing serendipity that Jake was there to lend me a hand. So we did the first photo, he helped me and we couldn't work it out. It was just so complex when you photograph objects from above. So we got there, but then I started to investigate and find out how could I do it better? How could I? Because we weren't able to connect the camera to our phones or anything like that. So we were just trying to hold the camera above while not being ourselves in the shot. Well, anyway, so the system kept improving. The second one was my husband. I had like really nice people that were like, of course I'll do it for you. Then I did my children and that was good because they were like 5 and 7 at the time. So I took a photo, you know, with my husband. We record the day in their lives. It was beautiful. Now I have a time capsule of what they were like when they were 5 and 7 and what they play with and their favorite toy stand. But so then I was like, okay, if I'm going to do this properly, if I'm going to take this far, that I need to develop like a protocol. And being a researcher and having trouble, you know, they were researching for companies and always designing research protocols. I was, okay, these are the rules, these are the things that you need to record. I'm going to recreate people's food. And how is that going to happen? If you touch a light switch or a tap, it doesn't matter. If you drive your car, I want your car keys, your chewing gum, your parking ticket, your sunglasses, making sure that people don't forget things. If you have a shower, you may come back to me. Oh, Paola brought my towel and my soap and I'll be like, what is the shampoo? What is your razor? What is this and that and that and that. And then the space, I was like, okay, I need to give everybody the same space so the photos look consistent on a white background. So I work on an always arctic white with the same photo lighting set and 2 meter 70 by 4 to everyone. And I fit your life there. Either if you have a lot of things or not, the photo will look more sparse or more compact, but everybody gets the same space.

Radim Malinage (25:33)

I love how it all came together with just a friend and her husband as a help to get us started. Because looking at your photos technically, they seem technically complicated because you've got quite a lot of objects. Let's go into the sort of technical detail because from our direction perspective, everything in your photos is properly lined up. It's got space around it. Like you make chaos in immaculately organized. I don't think anyone who produced their items would say, oh, my life was chaotic. But to make sense of these items, do you go by time of the day or do you. How do you do this? So that's my first question is what sort of lens do you use? Do you have like a rig that you've got?

Paula Zuccotti (26:14)

Oh.

Radim Malinage (26:17)

We'Ll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on the creative industry and beyond. LAX Coffee Company offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.

Paula Zuccotti (27:07)

Got it. Here is the 1635. So that's the lens and then I have a Canon 60 and I had actually had the same camera since 2017 when I took the first photo. And I do travel with a background stand and an extension that is the most analog piece, but I travel with me and then I hire the lights on the studios when I go away abroad. The dusty kit is kind of quite basic. And then I connect my camera to either my phone or my computer through the Canon app and I shoot from there. And I can control everything but the way that you were saying about the building of the photo. So I have something that I cannot change and it's the chronology of your day. So it has to go in the order of touching. So I can't put your towel before your soap. Well, things like that. So I'm kind of like limited and constrained by how things go. But then I play with a photo as if they were paragraphs on a book. So if you. My photos read from left to right, top to bottom, but I might create different paragraphs of lines of objects so it will all sit perfectly on the same place. And then I have challenges, like, you know, like tall objects, ideally they will go in the center and not on the edges because otherwise you'll see them if they were lying flat. A bit of a math problem. So I can't cheat with the order, but I have to work it so technically, ambitiously, it's like, it's a bit of a puzzle, to be honest. Like, when I'm there, each photo takes me like four and a half hours to make on the floor. And I'm wearing socks and leggings and the tight T shirt because even my clothes can move objects. So I've got like a bit of a ninja style, you know, working on the floor, doing the photo. I think if people say when a ripple on the lake settles or it is chaotic and it's. Or when the sea calms down, that I'm happy and that's when the final shot takes place.

Radim Malinage (29:05)

I'm loving the ninja move. That is quite. I mean, that's definitely the experience. So you mentioned that your photos are like the paragraph, right, reading from left to right. Do you have the reverse order for Arabic people? Obviously they.

Paula Zuccotti (29:21)

Interesting. No.

Radim Malinage (29:23)

Do you do it in the same way?

Paula Zuccotti (29:24)

No, no, no, no, but I have. I have photographed.

Radim Malinage (29:27)

Ah, you see, I was wondering if it's your rules or international rules.

Paula Zuccotti (29:31)

It's interesting. No, I'm thinking because I have photographed. No, no, but no, that's interesting.

Radim Malinage (29:35)

So with your post production. And we'll talk more about the philosophy of your post production, like how much of a retouching is involved? Is it the raw picture that you publish or do you clean up things and do stuff?

Paula Zuccotti (29:46)

I do clean up things. It's not a lot, but I do. And sometimes it will be like a shadow or I. It's interesting because I, you know, like things that roll, let's say a deodorant or a jar. I put blue tack to hold them in place. And sometimes I was just like, end up, you know, finding I'm cleaning up and I find like masking tape or blue tack or a string or something. And yes, so there is a little bit of making it like final immaculate. But it's more to do with the paper than with the objects themselves.

Radim Malinage (30:18)

I got it. So from your compositions, obviously, you've been doing this for more than 10 years now. Do you look back at some of the compositions and do you wish you've changed them or have you learned from practice? Do you.

Paula Zuccotti (30:30)

Yes, particularly in the beginning. Because some of the ones in the beginning, I look back at them and I like the story, but I don't like the photo and because probably I wasn't appreciating all the details, probably at the beginning I was like more rushed to capture another story. And I don't like being rushed. And that's kind of one of the things when. But I have to, because this. I'll do it in a photo studio. I might be in a city and I can photograph two people in a day. So I just have the studio for eight hours and I need to go work that way. And I'm also. It's people's lives, people's objects. There is a limit to how long can you hold somebody's dearest possessions. But I look back and I wish I put things straighter. I could go and retouch it with Photoshop, but I won't do that. It's just. It's done. You know, it's that way with the.

Radim Malinage (31:12)

Stories that you've encountered. There's some absolute fantastic stories that you've captured. You know, from cowboys to geishas to everyone in between, from 2 year olds to all the people. How did anyone get almost surprised with the amount of stuff that they touch on a daily basis? Or, you know, is it surprises, celebration? How do people feel about it? Because it sounds like a thrilling project, but what's the feeling behind it?

Paula Zuccotti (31:39)

I didn't expect that as a result that people will go through their own experience. But I had people saying that they found the exercise really mindful in terms of stopping to think about things that you do daily that you don't think about. And this might be from photograph. For example, a gymnast that I photographed in Shanghai, he was realizing how many cigarettes and Red Bull and chocolate bars he had to get through the day to put up. He was like teaching kids at the end, like things like that, you know, recount. I photographed my last photograph was recently a indigenous hunter in Taipei, outside of Taipei. In order to keep awake and alert when he goes hunting, he takes those, you know, betel nuts. They're like a stimulant similar to cocaine plants and they're natural. And that was part of the big story. Not realizing what are the things that you need to do? You need to do the things that you need to do. And I'll put it down to coffee or maybe going for a walk, but just seeing everything in the context of how connected the things that you do are. You know, you can see again, new narratives. I had people realizing my life is more occupied with work than with fun or my job is not represented on my photo. You know, people that would look at their photo and they are this artist or graphic designer or everything, and the work is just a laptop or a computer. I'm feeling that story is not coming through. There are like so, so many levels of which you can discover.

Radim Malinage (33:09)

It's fascinating because it says, like a mindful approach, like a mindfulness, like we take a break from our lives because as we have touched on it earlier, like once upon a time, we were mostly mindful because there was nothing else to take our attention. We were kind of more in tune with what was happening around us. But we thought we were absolutely bored. Like, this is a boring life. We were telling ourselves, like, what is that more exciting? Whereas how often do you have as a regular human being time to actually step out and say, what does my life look like? Have I got everything in the house? I need. Or do I need to take stuff out or I need to bring more in? We kind of make do with things, but we don't necessarily take a review or the inventory of our lives. We don't always take inventory of our lives. And my question is, is it a true expression of someone's life? Or has anyone dialed up their day to make sure that they've got everything in the picture? For example, you don't always horse ride, you don't always paint. You don't always do things like, do you create a snapshot of your life or is it. Do you give them rules saying, like, it's next Thursday, it's just a picture of your next Thursday?

Paula Zuccotti (34:13)

I help them pick a day that is representative. Not the day that, I don't know you got married or not today. That a day that is representative of your life, be it a weekend or a weekday. That's optional. But we tend to surround ourselves with dream objects, objects where we project that idea that we have upon ourselves. It could be the books that we haven't read, or the guitar that we haven't learned to play, or the photo camera that we haven't picked, or things that you think that one day you use them. And sometimes we create an image in our minds of who we are. And sometimes when you have to limit that to. Actually what you really use is like when people say you are what you eat or you are what you do. So it brings. It projects a mirror back to you of what is it that you actually really do. So I think, like by. By having that as a framework. If you are not a guitar player, it's rare that your guitar will be there unless you are the type of person that in the evening just, you know, grabs the guitar and plays a little bit. So, yes, it tends to be defined by what you are actually doing.

Radim Malinage (35:18)

I've got a question for you. Actually, you. Because you see this world from a totally different lens. You know, you have to articulate other people. Like, what does the day in life look like? Has your experience to new objects, textures, flavors changed? Because, for example, process of writing a book. When I work on a book every few years, I hear the world differently, I perceive it differently. Like I'm trying to join the dots. And in your way, you must be thinking like, okay, today. I mean, maybe it's a second nature now, but has that experience of life changed for you through the eyes of other people?

Paula Zuccotti (35:58)

Completely. And I think sometimes it's a bit like having muscle memory of things that are not my story If I acquire muscle memory of other people's lives through the work that I do as my business I travel the world, you know, researching industries topics. It would be like luxury or high end fashion or banking and I would immerse myself. Captain Chest came back from a big project on high end luxury fashion in the Middle East. And now I have those lenses. I have the lens of what is being a person that is surrounded by high end fashion, high end fashion, luxury in the Middle East. And then last year I was studying the future of sports in China, looking at emerging sports and emerging ways of moving or the one before I was looking at how people look after their homes and take care of their homes in India. So all the time looking at life from that point of view to then come back with ideas for improvement or new products, services, brands. And I embrace all of that as my own. So I keep changing how I do things. I pick tips from different people or I like, I might like something that somebody else has. I was like, oh, I'm going to try that. I don't know, I kind of have like through that. I don't know if this thinks that sounds a bit silly, but different ways, different lenses on the most basic things. It will be like cooking, banking or dressing up, things like that. That's my type of knowledge.

Radim Malinage (37:28)

I think it's a fascinating concoction of experiences because you might go to another place as a tourist, see it, take some experiences home, maybe one or two recipes or find a, find a flavor or something that you might want to recreate. Whereas not only in like faraway places, but you're also get to really experience their life, you know, through research. You actually you've got a purpose to ask them questions, to go deeper and join dots that you didn't even know existed in a way. Because what I wanted to know from what you do and how you do it, and you mentioned those words before, like mental health and you mentioned other sort of feelings were connected to the items. How do you see, and this is a warning for potentially too big of a question, but how do you see the element of happiness and material possessions being connected together? Because I'm sure that the snapshot of people's lives is mostly the positive. This is what that celebration of life is. But is there a connection between happiness, materialism, mental health and all of this? Because is there any link between it?

Paula Zuccotti (38:32)

Good question. I think the first things that I will demystify is like sometimes people and that's not what you're saying, but I know that I have been asked that in the past. People think that amount of items you may surround yourself with has to do with wealth or lack of. And I don't think that's a link. And I think that everybody needs stuff daily and will apply. Will apply meaning to all the things they have. So I would talk about that in a kind of like, more general lenses, removing it from any association of consumerism and wealth and happiness. I will remove that layer. I did a project during lockdown. I don't know if I mentioned it to you when. And it goes back to your question about mental health and things. So when lockdown started, I, you know, as everybody, I found myself like, it was like musical chairs. The moment that the music stopped, you found yourself where you were. And one of the things that I realized is like, my life in terms of objects was changing. I was spending more time at home with all the uncertainty that that brought to us, and also all the beauty of being able to spend more time at home. And I realized that I was reconnecting with objects in a different way. Things that, you know, like, I was, I don't know, making my own gym at home, playing records instead of listening to Spotify on the go, cooking more, etc. And I was like, oh, my God. I'm sure people are starting to have different ways of connecting with their homes, with their environment as well. People, you know, reshifting things in their homes. And I remember putting away plates and stuff that I had for guests and they were taking space. I was like, well, no guests are going to come to my house for a while. I'm just going to move all of this. I want to just leave with what I knew. So a lot of changes. And I was thinking, like, I want to document how this is happening in other people's homes and around the world. So, unable to travel and unable to touch other people's objects, I put a call on social media. I took a photo of my new 15 essentials. And I was like, these are the objects that became essential to my life now. And I think they are reflecting my new habits and my hopes and fears, particularly. What about yours? What are your new essentials? So again, the protocol, not your toothbrush that you used, it was essential last month, but things that you are looking at it with a new lens and ayman. I created a hashtag that it was everything we touch. Covid Essentials 15 really long and I then it traveled. So people started to share their life through this new 15 essential objects. And I collected 1,000 photos from 50 different countries. And I created a public archive is called www.lockdownessentials.org. and you can go and see all the stories because what people had to do as well was to take the photo of the 15 items and write a line per item explaining their choice. So you could go and see how was locked down in Saudi or Brazil or India, you could access or China you could access archive. And it is amazing because apart from being we were all in the same experiencing the same thing. And you can also see how different societies were dealing with it differently. So, for example, in so many photos that I have, and it goes back to your question about happiness and coping and mental health. So, for example, in many photos that I have from Africa, one of the ways in which communities, you know, deal with uncertainty or when something is not right, they will go to church together as a community. In the absence of that, my photos have a zoom next to a computer next to a Bible. And that's the new church on zoom or Facebook. Then a lot of photos from China had scales as people were worrying female about women about putting on weight. Or photo that I have from Ecuador. There are shamanic rituals to cope with, but I'm just saying how much an object is telling you about society. But to go back to your original question about happiness, those photos reflect how we were coping. And if you look at all the photos and you look at what's common here is how do I cope with this? So for some people will be like a pair of trainers to go for a run. Others will be alcohol, chocolate, mental health medications, game puzzles to keep my mind occupied drawing mandalas or. But it is. That's interesting how there is always something there that we're looking out for help or to help us pass a moment in time.

Radim Malinage (42:59)

Well, I missed your project during lockdown, but I was thinking about what were my lockdown essentials. And one of them was an ironing board. Not because of ironing, but because I used it as a makeshift laptop stand in my loft. There was nothing to use that. And I'm thinking M M's, M and Ms. And yeah, ironing board. That was definitely.

Paula Zuccotti (43:17)

Yeah, but how amazing. But just start, you know, you can start the screen. You can start something with that. What do MMs and an ironing board have in common?

Radim Malinage (43:26)

Necessity. Yeah. Yeah. The reason why I asked you about the number of items and versus happiness because you said quite interestingly said wealth. But I see it from a perspective of like, how do we find that shortcut to dopamine? Like how many People buy things for temporary value. It's something that, and it's usually the people who have got less available cash or they're less solvent, they would buy sometimes more stuff because that to them is the escapism out of the situation. Whereas met some insanely wealthy people who barely lived the most minimalist life because to them the concept, other sort of personal issues behind some of this stuff. But I think it's a way of how you're working on this is there's no such thing as a one template to decipher the humanity because it's obviously it's the different countries, different continents, different generations. All of that stuff has a different possessions and different sort of feeling how we interact with it. So in one of your photos, you photographed your mum's possessions and you said how beautiful that was the difference between what she used to be working in finance and now obviously she doesn't work in finance anymore. And she's got a rotary phone, she uses the phone to call herself on her iPhone because she loses it in the house. How was that for you?

Paula Zuccotti (44:46)

It was super emotional because I, I haven't lived well, I stopped living with my mom when I was 18, but I left Buenos Aires when I was 24 and you know, apart from me visiting, we haven't lived in the same house together. And when we look at you, when you see everything like somebody's frying pan, colander, tea towels, it's. I mean she was there in every single object, you know, I photographed. But it was like opening a new lens into my mom's life, you know, seeing all her makeup lineup, seeing all her cooking utensils, the things she reads, she actually has CDs so the CDs that she listens to. And also I photographed my mom at the age of 64 when I was living with her, she was 35, you know, and she used to wear pencil skirts and makeup and dress in high end fashion to go to work dressing really smart. And nowadays you find her going to Pilates, making birth charts and it's a complete different person. Not Mara, it's not a different person. What I mean, her lifestyle is different and that's reflected on the objects. And I love her photo. I think it's a really, it's a really nice way of photographing your loved ones by their possessions. And I see them, they're not on the photo. But one time I was on a talk and then somebody laughed and put it as a hashtag or something and I was like, they're right. I'M not thinking about it, but I went like here is a photo of my mom.

Radim Malinage (46:10)

And.

Paula Zuccotti (46:10)

And I started talking, people were laughing and so here's a photo of my mom. She wasn't there. That those are her objects. But that's how I viewed.

Radim Malinage (46:18)

That's a beautiful way of encapsulating the memories and feelings. Because in one of your promo videos that you've created, I think it was a film, was the cowboy who said you can tell how people feel by everything they touch. That is so profound because when we see people on the surface level passing by public transport, you don't necessarily think, think about a deeper story. Once upon a time we used to do coming back from a night out. At five o' clock in the morning, you sit down somewhere because you tired. You're like, I wonder where that person's going. I wonder why this person's awake. I'm like, they must be thinking why the hell are you not in bed yet? But at least you try to get into other people's worlds because most of the time we are just. Well, for most of our lives we are just been worried what other people might think of us. You know, am I wearing the right stuff? Am I doing this and that? Insecurities. Whereas in your way, what was the thing that you were most surprised to learn through all of this project?

Paula Zuccotti (47:14)

I don't know if it's one thing, but it's everything. It's just seeing how other people live and not in a nosy way, in a kind of humble way that no life is better than others. Everyone is a story. And just to see, just to find stories in the everyday, in people's lives. And what surprised me is when I look at the photo and I find new narratives, new ways of looking at it. So I run filters in my head and I may find that objects connect or that there is a pattern or I get excited by, by those things. I get excited by playing, saying, oh, what happens if I remove the middle line? Will that person still be showing the story or not? I get fascinated by asking questions that I'm not allowed to ask in any other way. If you give me all your objects, I can straight ask you, oh, Vadim, where's this coming from? Who bought you this? Did you buy this yourself? Or this coming from somewhere else? I was photographing a teacher in the Arab border of East Jerusalem. And she gave me the praying rug and the coffee and the cigarettes all together. And I was like, what goes first? And she said first code. Then the cigarettes and the coffee And I was like, okay, why first code questions like that. And then you enter a very amazing conversation with somebody about that that probably, you know, I can't ask somebody on the street why first. God.

Radim Malinage (48:44)

Well, hang out with me for a few minutes and you will see what I do now in public. One of the first discoveries that I got through podcast and is how equal we are in life and creativity. Like, we, we see people from, let's say, inexperienced lens thinking, oh, some people are higher or they are further or they're like, they're on different sort of, they're placed on the axis and success differently. Whereas we are all on the same level playing field. Some of us have already worked maybe a little bit further, but we are working the same axis. There's no such thing as app. And it's a satisfying feeling to, to hear other people's stories. And satisfying is the reason why, because I personally believe like some industry or even life is based on a little bit of ego, bit ambition, but then insecurity and anxiety, you know, like, we don't always have this sort of leveled. So when you actually open yourself to other people's stories, it makes your story feel so much more validated because you realize I'm living my life and the more I put myself in the life of others, I get to hear more about myself. I've got more to learn about myself. So what I want to know before I let you go is in my concept of daring creativity, daring forever. It's a project that I think you would regret never starting because it's your canonized work. I want to know for those that might be considering something similar when they stumble over it or when they find it in their lives, like, how do you keep going? How do you self fund it? How do you propel yourself going forward? How do you find more people? Because am I right that you're going to be doing this for a while yet?

Paula Zuccotti (50:29)

Yes. I didn't think, you know, the first time I did it, I started it, like I told you, with my first two photographs. And I was really lucky after the two photos to be talking to Penguin as a publisher. And I had a meeting and the project was like, oh, this is amazing. It took a while and they rejected it. And then I had the opportunity to be talking to Penguin again six months later. And they were like, oh, it's amazing you got a book here. But in between those two, the first time I only had two photos. So when Penguin rejected me, it was like, this is an amazing idea, but you got a Concept, you don't have a book. And I was like, okay, fine. So I went away and I was like, why am I waiting for Penguin to tell me that I can do this project? So I was like, this is actually the kick that I need. Why am I waiting? I waited six months to hear that. I was like, no, I'm going to make my own photo. So then I started to photograph. Then that's when I photographed my children and I started photographing different people to not have my tree. He always, you know, like, when your aunt and your granny are your case study. No, you know, like I had to go wider. So by the time that I got talking to Penguin again, I had eight photos and they were like really strong. So I had the opportunity of publishing my first book with them. And so I kind of had a deadline. I had eight months to produce 60 photographs that were of a global scale for the book. So my first 60 were driven by incredible desire to make a book, enthusiasm to find the best stories out there, and the desire to make it like the most diverse and inclusive that I could so the book could speak to everyone. So the funding of my first 60 was through the book deal. So with the advance of the book, I was able to fund it, which was an important consideration I had when I was talking to Penguin at the time because that was essential for me to do it. So that's how we started. But then after the book was got published, I carry on with my own business and then people started to contact me because of the book. So I started to get commissions from brands like the one you see on my wall is another force coda that I did and you know, starting to get commissions and things to do projects related to that or invited by on festivals around the world to photograph people. So while not fully funded, a lot of opportunities came around to be able to take my set and set up like I did Israel, I did the uae. And then whenever I was traveling somewhere for work, I will get a cheeky day at the end where I could do my photos. So it's always kind of like finding the way. Now I got more than a hundred, so it's always kind of like finding that gap. So the real photos nowadays are self funded and I'm always, that's what I do as much as I can. But whenever I go to a new place, I look for a story and I think it's a more of a bit of a journalistic approach. And actually I photograph the hunter, the indigenous hunter. And that inspired me to now take Photos of indigenous communities because of how so much wisdom is trapped in the objects that they use every day. I also photograph in Taiwan Chinese traditional medicine person because I wanted to learn about that. And the photo is fascinating. It's full of dry sea horses and toads and all the things that have to do with Chinese medicine. So yes. So it is about finding ways to self fan not being ambitious like I do it as I can. Nobody's rushing me on that one. It's my own self wanting to do my research and artwork. I sometimes get to do exhibitions or something and then I will destine that towards making, making those photos.

Radim Malinage (54:19)

I love what you do, I love how you do it and I think, you know, you have to dig out bones from the ground to find out what happened was happening back in the past. Whereas you documenting everything for us, they show it how their life works from 2 year olds to you know, 90 year olds. And it's fascinating I think especially what you mentioned about indigenous people. I mean that's so, still so much unknown that they could be unearthed on that.

Paula Zuccotti (54:43)

To leave you a quote on that. You know, indigenous people say that the you're, you know, particularly in Latin America, South American communities, that your, your future is on your back and your past is on the front. So what you carry, what you are seeing is your past. That's the only thing that you can see. And what you have behind is the future, that is what you cannot see. So I want to see yeah that in objects.

Radim Malinage (55:05)

I like it, I like it a lot. So parting question. Is there a person that you wish you have documented their lives?

Paula Zuccotti (55:14)

Well, actually my grandmothers could have been good ones because I would have learned a lot through them. And I actually, I don't think I just because of fact of moving countries and then not being around. They passed away more than 20 years ago. I yeah, I don't have that things. I don't have stuff. I have the memory which is more valuable than anything and I'm not losing that. But it would be good to have had that story.

Radim Malinage (55:42)

What a beautiful answer. What a beautiful answer. Because I was thinking, is this someone famous? No, it's the grandma.

Paula Zuccotti (55:49)

Yes.

Radim Malinage (55:50)

Paula, thank you very much for your time today. I mean what a beautiful story. I find it fascinating. I got to know Nazbe, learn about your world recently and I can't wait to see what else you produce. And I'm so excited for you because it's informed how you live, how you work and what you bring into the world. And it's singular it's unique and I celebrate you for that.

Paula Zuccotti (56:08)

I thank you so much. I mean I really, I'm really grateful for the opportunity of talking to you and also your questions got me thinking about new answers, new stuff. And you know, you also connected dots for me that I haven't seen. So I'm really grateful for this.

Radim Malinage (56:24)

Fascinating. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Paula Zuccotti (56:26)

You're welcome.

Radim Malinage (56:37)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. Foreign if you enjoy this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding, and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook, an audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.