← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Dare to embrace the confidence rollercoaster - Kelly Anna
00:55:32
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- [00:09]
A
When I do a piece of artwork and someone wants to buy that, that alone again, that's that feeling of like validation that someone else sees what I see and they connect with it. The way I have felt it in my body. I felt that feeling to create and make this piece, but then to have another human connect with it is just, yeah, it's amazing. And that's why we keep doing it. It's a human connection thing for me as well. It's like someone else feels what I feel and they felt what I'm trying to get across. That's what I find really beautiful. And you know when I always say, like when someone buys a piece of your work and puts it in their home. When people have artwork in their home, it almost becomes part of their DNA.
- [01:09]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today, I'm speaking with Kellyanna, a London based artist and illustrator whose vibrant, movement driven work has taken her from independent galleries to global campaigns. A career shaped by childhood spent sketching Latin dancers from the sidelines, and years of breakdancing and gymnastics. Her journey spans the space between wanting to be a dancer and becoming an artist. From years of quiet behind the scenes work in print and apparel to the two year stretch of blind faith that finally unlocked her unmistakable visual style and voice. In this conversation, Kelly talks about a confidence rollercoaster for freelance life, why personal work is the only antidote to creative drought, and what it means when color becomes a language everyone can feel. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Kaliana. Hey Kelly, it's great to have you here. How are you doing?
- [02:59]
A
Good, thanks for having me. I'm actually good. I'm cold though.
- [03:03]
B
It's great to see you and as I've just told you in our pre conversation, I've been very much aware of what you do, how you do it, and as a fellow lover of color, it's always whenever you create something, I am equally amazed and kind of a little bit envious about, you know, what you can do and how you do it, because it's just full of energy and style. But for someone unlike me, who knows your work, who's Kellyanna would you do? How would you introduce yourself?
- [03:29]
A
I find that really hard when someone asks me that. But, hi, my name is Kellyanna. Yeah, I'm an artist, illustrator, designer. I'm trying to still figure out what I call myself, but we'll start with that. So, yeah, my work, I do a lot of kind of work, predominantly in sport, movement, wellness, female empowerment. I feel like female empowerment, it's kind of. It's gone for a ride, hasn't it? But my work is all based on that, and I love to storytell, and a lot of my work kind of comes from storytelling, I guess.
- [04:03]
B
So, yeah, I like when people say, it's difficult to explain because it's been.
- [04:08]
A
Changing every year because it's funny, like.
- [04:10]
B
How you see yourself and how I would see yourself, because, yeah, I would say illustrator, artist. And that's how your work could be potentially perceived for clients, by audience, by, let's say, art collectors. But it's amazing that to you it's more complicated to how we see it on the outside because people, I guess, don't usually see the inner struggle, the war within going, what am I doing? But, I mean, is it a good thing to, you know, still be figuring it out? Because I guess you never finished, right?
- [04:37]
A
I think so. Well, I've been freelance now for, think, coming up to 10 years. I haven't figured it out, and I don't think I will ever figure it out completely. You get more confident with things, and then you lose the confidence, and then you get it back and then you lose it. And I think it's the same with our practice and developing. I think it's just a constant figuring out because things change and I get really bored. So things didn't change. I just. Yeah, I'd want it to change.
- [05:09]
B
I have to ask you, you said you have a confidence, you lose a confidence. You have a confidence, you lose a confidence. How does it happen?
- [05:17]
A
I think it's. I always used to talk about confidence because I used to struggle with it a lot. And when I was kind of building my work, I didn't have the confidence because I hadn't had any jobs then, hadn't had any work. And then I think, you know, the more jobs come in, then you start to get a bit of confidence and you're like, oh, okay, maybe there's something in my work. And then it goes on and then you become freelance and you go into the world and. And then you start losing jobs and you lose your confidence and then you get a job and then your confidence comes back. I think a massive part of it is probably just being freelance. It's just this roller coaster of emotion. It's just like, you're up, then you're down, then you're up. I think over the years, I'm slowly learning to just accept that and just find ways to deal with that. Those highs and lows. I've said, like, I'm good at it. I'm definitely not good at it.
- [06:10]
B
I mean, if you can stay on the topic of confidence for one more second, it's just. It's really interesting how you say that. The confidence is actually just tied to commercial results. If I've got projects, I'm confident, and if I haven't got them, I'm not. But technically, creatively, you're not doing anything different. It just depends on external validation. If someone says, yeah, we want to do with you or not.
- [06:32]
A
Yeah, it's funny because. But that's interesting because I used to be more like that. Whereas now the way I get my confidence back is because I think a lot of us tie it, the confidence to our commercial work. But the only way I really, in those moments, the only way I actually get my confidence back really, is when I go, okay, work's a bit slower. I'm going to work on my own stuff. And that's then where the new work starts coming out. And then I get work again. So it's a push and pull. And I think that's just, to be honest, I think that's quite normal with most freelancers. But it is hard to disconnect that, you know, your level of, I guess, confidence with your work. Because as artists, like our work is us, it's so, so personal. So when it is that link to commercial work, it's hard to cut that, basically, and just, I guess, yeah, feel that it's not personal. Don't know if that made sense.
- [07:30]
B
It made sense and it also made me join the dots there. Some of my previous guests, when I talked to them, and I've spoken to some really incredible names who I would assume that they're working all the time. You know, some people who, let's say, define particular trends and Styles in mid 2000, some people who've been working in lettering at the forefront of it, and you speak to them and they don't work for six months or they haven't got the Pipeline that you would imagine, because, I guess what you created, and I think because your style, in my opinion, is so ownable, so unique and recognizable, that it's not always applicable for everyone. Because otherwise we would need to live in the world of Kellyanna. Because, let's say everyone's commissioning you all the time. Where is the trade off?
- [08:15]
A
I think it's really hard because as a freelancer, you've got to. You're really a business, but it's almost like having a business. But being an artist as well and separating the two is really difficult. But you have to do it because it's the same with style as well. Like, you know what it's like, especially as an illustrator, you get your style and then that is what you're known for, and those are the jobs you get. And it's just an ongoing. You know, you're almost. It's like a push and pull of. You want to pivot a little bit, but you're like, but I need this work. And it's the work I'm getting. But I think that. I think it's really important to say no to. I've always been very careful with what I take on and what I don't. And I say that from a privileged point now, because I know at the very beginning it was harder to say no to jobs because I needed the jobs and I needed the work. But now, definitely, I think it is important to. Yeah, just making sure you're taking on the work that actually aligns with you a lot more. And then in those times that you're not just basically working on your style and working on how you can develop, I always talk about how important it is to develop, even if you've got your style.
- [09:34]
B
I mean, there's so much that you said, because you talk about how you separate a business from the artist and how you do that. Because I've said it before, and I will say it again, it was Ozzy Osbourne who said, as soon as you start booking your own gigs, you're a businessman. And I feel we are in the business of creativity. Like, I think the vehicle that we want to do, that expression is ultimately what drives us forward like that. That's where we start. But I think it's really difficult just to be an artist and not worry about business. I think it's just because it's inseparable these days, right?
- [10:08]
A
It is absolutely inseparable. And you absolutely can if you've got a lot of money behind you. But we are. If you are in this for business, which most of us are, it's how we live, it's our business. You absolutely need to be a business. I think it's really important, especially when you're speaking to younger people, is to help them understand that. Because also, if you see yourself as a business, also your worth should be going up as well. Because I think sometimes we think of artists and, you know, oh, we're drawing all day from outside that. That's what it might look like. But behind the scenes, we're the same as any other business. We've got to get our clients, we've got to keep pushing, we've got to do marketing, we've got to do all of the things that businesses do. Accounting, all of the, really, I'd say the boring side of business, but yeah, that it's. For me, I have to say, 50% of my what I do is business and the rest is, yeah, creating.
- [11:11]
B
But if you don't look after the business, then you really don't know what your baseline is, what is your foundation and how strong you are. How many people do you know who says, I feel like I'm an artist, but I'm going to start a creative business first and then I'm going to learn how to paint or draw or express myself. And it doesn't happen that way. Or at least if anyone is that way, please get in touch because I really want to know. But when you said when you were younger, you were taking on more of the jobs that you now say no to, and this is that sort of washing machine of that creative business and life and expression, which is like, what is the thing that aligns with, you know, with your values? Because that's what, you know, that's one of the things you said just a second ago, like, jobs that align with me and align with my values and what I want to do. So when we take you back those 10 years ago when you started your own business, here we go, career, freelance. What did you find out that was almost that sort of rude awakening going, oh, is this what this is all about?
- [12:15]
A
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [12:18]
B
This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on the creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Company offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel@luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [13:05]
A
I think for me it wasn't so much the going into the first few years because that first few years I just, I remember I got one job. I was working freelance at the time, but I was contracted in with a company so I was working at the time, I was working like four days a week for someone else. And I had been working on my portfolio and like developing for the previous two years before I then had the guts to finally leave the employment. But so I remember I got one of my first jobs and I thought it was a good amount of money and it gave me the confidence to go, okay, right, this is your, you've got a little bit of time now if you just want to take the leap. And I took the leap. And so that first few years I just went mental. Like I did everything I could get my hands on. I not saying that I took on jobs with no pay, I never did that. But I more just was just wanting to get my stuff out there and you know, contacting people and asking if I could take over spaces. And it was more of that rather than letting people come to me and be like, can you do this for no money? It was more just me going to them being like, look, I've got this idea, can we do this? It will cost you this.
- [14:25]
B
I mean what you described, I think it's a unique time in our lives because you know, a parent, you might have a different responsibilities, as you said, who happens to have money behind them to start a career. Like it's again, you know, it might be an anomaly and again if it's you get it touched so you pushing yourself in every possible corner and every possible space, every possible commission. It's a unique time because you will never be potentially ever so hungry as you were that time, so determined and so pushy because life changes and it changes into different chapters and those chapters are necessary because we learn about ourselves different things, then we reevaluate and say, okay, maybe I'm going to live rest of my life in this way.
- [15:09]
A
I had so much energy. I don't know if my energy's the same.
- [15:13]
B
Well, I mean it's not the same story when you think about it. It's a developing plot because yeah, I mean I wrote a book about how I used to work 18 hours a day because I loved it, because it was like everything. And now you realize if I work two, three hours a day, that's a bonus because it's just Life. Life changes, but you spend more time thinking about what you do. Because I think it was Obama who once said, look, I'm not as young as I used to be, but I move with purpose. I'm actually, by the way, butchering the quote, but he says, but I move with purpose. I don't jump as far, I don't go as fast, but I know what I'm doing. And that's the more important part. Because when you've got energy, what do you do? You burn it off by doing everything and anything and not doing it right.
- [15:53]
A
So true. So true. And also when you. I've got a kid now, and I always say, especially in those first few years, like, everything I did had to have purpose because I didn't have time to mess about. So anything that I was doing, I was like, right, I really need. This needs to work in this amount of time that I've got. So you really do. You have to change the way you work, the way you design, the way you concept. Everything has to. Yeah, that's a really good saying, actually, because it's true. Yeah.
- [16:24]
B
Before you went out freelancing, before you did the work, before you discovered who Kellyanna is creatively, where'd you come from? What was the background? What was the influence in your life that made you be, you know, so colorful, so expressive, so extravagant with your shapes?
- [16:41]
A
I would say was an artist. My dad is an artist, and I always say was. Because he never went into art himself. He still paints, but he never went in and worked as an artist. But he is an artist, and he was very quite influential when I was growing up and he used to teach me. We used to draw together, paint together. My dad was one of those ones that was born with the skill of. He just was born with the skill. Whereas I loved art, but I couldn't draw like him. He will look at a figure and draw the outline and it's perfect. Whereas I loved art. I loved the feeling that it gave me, but I didn't technically have the skills that my dad did. I know obviously he was older than me, but. So he was also quite harsh critic. Like, I always say that he'd teach me to sketch, but I wasn't really allowed to look down at the paper because he always believed that you gotta focus on your subject, and the paper in your drawing has nothing to do with your foot. You should be focusing on what you're drawing. So I'd be drawing and I'd be looking down too much, and he'd take the paper away and tell me to start again. So he sounds really harsh. He wasn't at all. He wouldn't hurt a fly. But he's just. Yeah, he was very big on focusing on your subject. And my mum and dad are also boring Latin dancers. That's actually how they met. My dad was a dance teacher and my mum came in and they fell in love with and. And then obviously they had four kids and so we all did boring and Latin as well. So, yeah, my background from the age of, literally from the age of three, I was dancing and we used to go to a lot of ballroom and Latin competitions growing up. And so when me and my dad would be drawing, I'd be taking my sketchbook to these competitions and I'd sketch all the dances moving around the floor. I think it was that very early on of sketching that movement that kind of influenced me going forward. And even though there was a huge gap in that and what I did throughout my career, I think that really set something off in me. And also I was saying to you before my dad, it was really big on color. He always spoke about how important color is and he always said that color is a language that everyone understands. Wherever you are in the world, everyone understands color. So yeah, I think those two things maybe have gotten me to where I am.
- [19:16]
B
I love that story. I love the story. It literally explains everything I've been seeing in your work for the last 10 plus years. It now I'm glad I got, you know, you to tell me exactly what happened because when you were describing your dad, I mean you're describing technically your confidence. Like I wasn't as good as he was. I will never be as good as this. Only to realize that the space between what you want to do and the tool is gradually going to get shorter and shorter because it's like how far do you have to go between this? Because your analogy or you're reminiscing about your dad sort of focus on the subject. When you think about the best musicians, they don't really look on their neck on a guitar going, I think F is somewhere down here or the A is here. Like, you know, they're looking at the audience and performing some obscene things on their guitars. And like that's hours and hours and hours of doing this because yeah, they focus in on the subject and they are at one with this. And I think it's that thing about how you almost encourage someone. In your case it was. It sounded quite harsh, but I think if there was a great way of focusing on what you're trying to do. You know, you might. Hopefully you don't have any traumas from focusing on the subject.
- [20:26]
A
No, not at all. He's a character anyway. But I always just used to even watching him draw. It's like he will, honestly, when he's sketching figures, he'll rip the paper because he's. That he just believes so much in getting the lines correct. And yeah, he's very. I always say, actually one day I would love to collab with my dad because when he's finally retired and yeah, has the time, I definitely would love to see something like that.
- [20:57]
B
Do you know why he's never pursued career in art?
- [21:00]
A
Yes, because he had four children and his. He actually was going to go to Camberwell. He went to. When he was 18, he went to go and have his. I think he even got into Camberwell or it was a Camwell, I can't remember. But then his mum or my grandma fell sick so he had to stay home. And then he married my mom and had four children, so. And he just took the life that, you know, was not the creative one. But he does still paint to this day. And I have said as soon as he retires, that's when I'm going to start his business. So I'm already. I've already got ideas. He's always, Kelly, just leave me alone.
- [21:40]
B
So your dad walked into a Latin ballroom and met your mom. We're going to spend half of the time talking about your dad and your mom today. But where did it love for music? Like where. How do you know why he was there? I mean, we kind of know why she was there because she was part of the earth.
- [21:58]
A
My dad. There's pictures of my dad of when he was like 8, 9. He was a boring and Latin dancer. He did it from a very young age. But yeah, I don't actually know why he got into it. And we used to kind of host these family dances where, yeah, people would come and we'd host and would. The whole family would dance with everyone. And yeah, we did that a lot, which was nice.
- [22:21]
B
So you were sketching the dancers, the poses, the silhouettes. How did you then marry up with the style or how did you develop your style of expressive figures, proportions, silhouettes, the curves and everything? Because it's in my way, obviously. And as I told you before we started recording, I said, I see this as very. A Latin American inspired style. This has got everything, the vibrancy, the shapes, the movement. And I kind of want to find out like you know, now I know a little bit more about you think, okay, I can join these dots together. But is the development. Is those hours between you drawing rudimentary sort of dancers and then coming into this with a commercial style which is so recognizable and so expressive? So how do we trace it from start to now?
- [23:10]
A
So it's funny as well, because growing up as well, I did a lot of sport. I was a gymnast and I was a gymnast coach for a little while as well. My uncle was very big into sport. So I also grew up with that as my. Yeah, childhood really. And then I got into kind of my teenage years and I got into almost like commercial dancing as well. And then through art college, I had this weird. I basically wanted to become a dancer. That was what I wanted to be. And then I went to art school. And back then it wasn't. It really was not cool to be into. I did like hip hop, break dancing, all of that. But back then, for some reason it was. I don't know, it's like that indie time where it was all about, like, indie music. And I actually, throughout art college, I kept it a secret that I did break dance and hip hop and all of that because it just, at the time didn't seem that cool. And so I felt like I had to just choose one or the other. And I chose the art path because I closed that door, really. I still carried on for a few years dancing, but I decided I was like, no, I'm going to close that door and go into art. And so I think there was always a part of me that felt I missed out. And I've always wondered what my life would be if I actually went on to be a dancer. And so I think a really important thing for me to do when I was developing was to connect those two worlds. And actually, when I started, I actually. When I left uni, I ended up going into print design. So I did a lot of print design for clothing, like apparel, footwear. And even when I was working in apparel, there was a connection to dance and music. I did a lot of print design for. Yeah, different kind of singers and whatever. But so there was that kind of link there. And also when I worked in footwear, there was the link to dancers and things like that and performing. So when I was doing that, when I was the print designer, I always had this idea. I knew that I wanted to be my own artist and somehow do my own thing. So whilst I was doing that, I had to develop my style and try and figure out how to piece all this together and do something that felt right to me. So I used to. I started out actually by kind of sketching. I started very early sketching. I know this sounds really weird, but I would go to gyms and kind of sketch a little bit. And also my friends, they were all dancers, and I used to go to their rehearsals and sit in their rehearsals and sketch them dancing. So that was kind of my connection to that world a little bit. I knew that world, and I felt really comfortable in it. And I just had to basically try and find a way to. Yeah. To connect it and figure out a style that would work with it. So. Yeah. And I also did. When I was at uni, I did fashion illustration, so. And that is all about exaggerating forms. And, you know, it's. The forms are always exaggerated in some sense. So, yeah, it was kind of an amalgamation of all of that put together.
- [26:28]
B
This is amazing because you said I had to choose one. I had to go between either the one or the other. And then you kind of sat on the sort of sidelines watching how many people doing what you did secretly. And the story of a secret breakdown stuff. It's just like, don't tell anyone. You know, there's indie kids, but I'm a break dancer.
- [26:45]
A
I know when I look back, I'm like, that's so, so odd, because now, nowadays, like, with the way the world is, that would have been amazing. But it just shows how different our world is now because. Yeah, just would have been a different. Different world.
- [26:58]
B
I think you're describing the time where, like, being one thing, and I would be saying, do one thing and do it well, that kind of works. But what really amazes me, there was one strong advocate, which I will name who that is, and let's do one thing and do it well. And I'm like, you do, like, seven different things. What are you talking about? You do seven things. You do them fairly well.
- [27:17]
A
Oh, I wish I could be like that. I get too bored. I wish I had that brain. I wish I could do one thing for the rest of my life and become the best at it. But I just. I get too bored writing a book.
- [27:32]
B
Called Daring Forever, which is partially based on this podcast season and looking into ways of how we, for example, decode things, like, not a lack of confidence and how we do stuff and why some of us are looking for more colorful life, more. More varied life, more intricate life, rather than. Some people just keep it straight. And it actually comes down to genetics. You know, some people are just good at One thing, and they stick with it.
- [27:55]
A
I wonder that in everyday life, like, you know, even when it comes to relationships, like people that have been together for two and I just look at things and I'm like, how do people do that? It is. It must be genetic, and it must be to do with our brains. And I'm looking forward to reading your.
- [28:09]
B
Books, though it also comes to understanding of the psychology, general philosophy, like, how our childhoods really create the foundation for who we are, who we become. And some people had similar childhoods to yours, and they were like, you know, you know what? I'm going to go into finance. This is going to be good. I'm going to be in insurance. I don't need more Latin music in my life. Whatever. Apparently, we have different signs of dopamine receptors. So some people are more motivated, some people are less motivated. Happiness is 50% genetic. You know, some people are just not happy, just, you know, just not as jolly as some others. But we have this societal measure of understanding. Okay, happiness should look like this. And are you happy as this? You know, are you as creative as this? Whereas what you're describing here so beautifully so far, it's just like, look, you just became your person who wanted to be your own artist. And I'm like, this is what I'm doing. And to be honest, I think the Secret Breakdancer is a great story, but from what I'm seeing, I'm selfishly can say that, you know, it's great that you've gone into visual art because it's fantastic. It's been like such a beautiful, unique way of expressing yourself that has made so many brands and so many projects so much colorful and so much more jollier to look at. So let's put some more color into your sketches, because I'm sensing that so far, with the observed, you know, fashion illustration, you were sort of trying to find yourself. And I want to know, how much patience did you have till you realized that you finally hit in on something that's unique, your own? And then you can say, I'm going to fly my own flag, tall and proud.
- [29:36]
A
It did take a while because like I said, I was working behind closed doors when I was working with other people. There was literally two years where I was just working and trying things, and it just wasn't clicking at all. And then I'd say, like, in. At the end of that two years, just something started to click and I was slowly putting my work out into the world, literally with no likes. But I was just. I Don't know. There was something that I weirdly just. I knew something was there and I guess I just had this blind faith that I just. If I just kept doing it, kept putting it out, that something would hit. And it did in the end. Eventually I. Yeah, I got my first job, which was with Nike. So.
- [30:24]
B
What was that feeling of validation that you spend time developing? And 10 years ago, am I safe to say that world was slightly more patient, less noisy, But I don't think it was like we already. We were all on Instagram.
- [30:38]
A
But it has changed. I think the. I think if you're joining Instagram, social media now is harder in some ways. Oh, I say that, but depends what your output is now. It's much more video and short form. So, yeah, it just depends what your process is, I guess I would say.
- [30:58]
B
I think you need to have a real pot of gold now to really stand out. Because somebody somewhere said the other day, the craft has gone so much better. What some. I think a lot of people have caught up and realized they can do really good work or push themselves to do better work. You know, that distance between the paper and themselves or the tool. Because I think the craft in all areas have gone incredible. But I think it was sacrificed in a way of expression, like how unique some of the stuff is, because lots of people, and we talk About Instagram from 10, 15 years ago, it was like it was easy to jump on the hashtag and be another off, you know, like be part of something creative. People are liking my stuff because they're also like 25 or 30 other people doing the same. But finding that uniqueness, which is so hard to now find because everything's remixed of something, everything's influenced by something. Like, how do people do it? Because you gave yourself two years, which can seem like a lifetime in 2026, even now.
- [32:02]
A
I mean, it wasn't just two years. It was because I. That's when I decided I was. I wanted to be on my own. But before that, it was still eight years of me working for other people, knowing that I wanted to do my own. I just didn't have the. I didn't have the money and I didn't have the confidence and I hadn't figured out really my style. I had my style, but I just hadn't figured it out completely yet. So it was a long. I always say, like, when I left uni, I didn't go out on my own until I was about 29. So it's like nine, eight, nine years of just. Yeah. Working behind, yeah, the scenes.
- [32:43]
B
When you think about it, some people think they need to retire at 29. These days, it's like, do one thing and do it really well. What is it? But you know that. You see some people, I want to get to the final finishing line as fast as possible. It's like, why?
- [32:58]
A
No, I'd get. Again, I'd get so bored if I had to stop working, I. Some people, that's their. And, you know, if they can get on them, but my brain wouldn't allow it. I think I'll be trying to start a new business when I'm on my deathbed. I just. I think I just. I say that now as a youngster. I don't know what I'll be like when I'm old.
- [33:19]
B
And I think, again, people have different motivation, and it comes from environmental inputs, their backgrounds, their trauma, their childhood. Because ultimately, it's an external validation. What I want to get to now is, you start, you got your commission with Nike, and it just looks like the confetti cannon just exploded. And you got commissions. You started working across different formats, different exhibitions, all of that stuff, if you can remember, what did it feel like when you realized, you know what, I put my money on 32 black, and it worked, actually, in your case, you put your money on whatever number and all the colors set.
- [33:55]
A
There was a time I did, I think, because I struggled so long with confidence. There was a time I remember, I think it's myself, gosh, this feels really good. It felt so good to have something that you'd worked on not. I don't think it was even that night. I think my whole life I had wanted to be a creative, an artist, and, yeah, to get validation from someone that isn't yourself, because you can. You can pick yourself up as much as you like, and you have to. As an artist, you have to be your own fan club. But to have someone outside want your work next to their brand name, that's another level of. That's another feeling. And it's something that we chase. We go on chasing, and it's just an amazing feeling. That's why we do it. That's why we do this freelance work. Because it's. You know, when someone. When I do a piece of artwork and someone wants to buy that, that alone again, that's that feeling of, like, validation that someone else sees what I see and they connect with it the way I have felt it in my body. Like, I've felt that feeling to create and make this piece, but then to have another Human connect with it is just. Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing. And that's why we keep doing it and. Because that's a nice. I guess it's a human connection thing for me as well. It's like someone else feels what I feel, and they felt what I'm trying to get across. That's what I find really beautiful. And. And you know when I always say, like, when someone buys a piece of your work and puts it in their home, when people have artwork in their home, it almost becomes part of their DNA. It becomes, I have pieces in my home that the more they're in my home, the more I fall in love with them because they're just part of me now. They are part of my personality. And I. So it's that connection to that artist that I love. Me and my partner, we are constantly looking for new pieces of work. And whether it's ceramics or paintings, just something to. I guess. Yeah. That says that speaks our way of seeing the world, I guess.
- [36:19]
B
I mean, if there was a beautifully eloquent artist statement, that was it.
- [36:25]
A
We've had too many coffees this morning.
- [36:27]
B
No, I think what you said with no hesitation is how it makes you feel and how you appreciate if somebody almost reciprocates that feeling because it really goes into the most beautiful ways of telling stories. And someone received those stories exactly as you intended.
- [36:43]
A
Yeah. It's nice because, like, when I'm. I'm the biggest fan to a lot of artists, and when they post something, like, I remember someone posted something the other day, an artist I love, and they literally just posted an ink drawing. And I just. I connected so much with it. I was like, it almost like. It's like they. It's like he gets me. So it's just. And it's so weird. He doesn't know me. I'm like, he gets me, and he gets my vision of the world. And Because I love that piece so much, and it's just. Yeah, I love it. I love. That's connected us. Even though he has no idea who.
- [37:20]
B
I am, what you just said made me actually think of the stuff that you have. Artists, musicians, writers, authors, they produce something. And people go like, I wasn't expecting that. And I'm thinking, what were you expecting? Are you a mind reader? Because it's like that person does something at their moment in time when that's true to them, and you've got almost time to either tune into it or not be on the same path. Because that expectation, it's just like, when you are so, like, wholesomely into their journey, you appreciate every twist and turn and every surprise. Whereas if you're expecting something for yourself to validate, other person can't give it to you, can they?
- [38:03]
A
Yeah. That's actually why I always love seeing artists and creatives pivot a little bit and start. I love it when someone shows me something new. Like, I love seeing an artist who's got their style, who's got their thing, and randomly they come out with something so different. And I'm like, you know what? Good on you. Even though you will not get the validation that you want online right away, I just know that I am there fangirling you on because I love it. I find it so empowering as another creative to see another creative go, you know what, pack this. I'm gonna go and develop and I'm gonna try and I'm gonna keep moving. So, yeah, I'm there fangirling you on.
- [38:51]
B
So this is interesting because I was gonna ask you about the world of brands and what does it mean to be associated with certain brands and potentially being limited by. Limited by your brilliance in a way. What I want to know is how would you have said that your style has been your biggest asset, but has it ever been a negative to the fact that you can't be everywhere with everyone at all times?
- [39:16]
A
Yes and no. I wouldn't say a negative because I guess that's on my choices, I guess, of who I've worked for or not. And you're right. Like, you can't be everywhere at once. I wouldn't want to be. For one. I think it is important in this capitalist, in this commercial world as an illustrator and artist, to have something that connects you to, I guess, your style because. Or you have to have some sort of style to start with because you're easier to find. It's like I always say to people, always ask, how do you get work with different. These different brands? And I think it's really important to know what the way to start is, knowing what interests you. And for me, what interests me and has always interested me is everything, sport, movement, kind of that world. So I've always linked my work to that which for someone who works in sport, for instance, they'll go, we need a female artist. We need someone who works in sport, and we need someone who does whatever. And so it's easy for then brands to come and look and say, oh, Kellyanna, sport theme, like, it almost packages it up for these brands ready to go. And I know that Sounds again, very like maybe just business and not so much creative, but as if, I guess younger people want to get into that world. I think it's much easier if you start from the very core. What is it that you really enjoy and really believe in? Start from there and work around that, and then that almost becomes your thing and it's much easier for brands to find you.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think that makes perfect sense. I'm looking at your Rapha collaboration. This is on your website. And I spoke to Luke Carson, David Carson's son, how they made their collaboration happen with Rafael and obviously what's gone into it. How did that collaboration go? How did you put it together? Because I always say that cycling and cycling audience is such a tricky target audience because everyone's got opinion, not everything is the same. When I see your capsule collection, it just seems absolutely amazing. And it's just perfect way of sort of marrying those two words together. Because as you said, we need female, we need sports, we need illustrator, we need artists. That's where you happen to be. How did it go for you, like, in terms of the validation of the style, free reign?
- [41:53]
A
Like, what went to was funny because this was such a full circle moment. When I was younger, I started a Girl City cycle crew. Sounds so funny when I say it now, when I say that it. Basically, I loved riding my bike around the city and I loved my riding my bike around the city with my friends. So I decided to start a Girls City cycle group. And to the point where I would literally ride up to a girl on a bike and be like, do you want to join our little group? And we just became this little group and we'd go on like little cycling trips around the city. Literally, that was all it was. It kind of became this little community. We even did like little Halloween rides and things like that. And so I had that for a few years and I'm still actually friends with a lot of the girls in from that little group. And then. And in one of the pictures we took, I was actually wearing my favorite Rafferty. So I was always a massive fan of Rafa. I love everything that they put out. They're just genius. And then a few years ago, my agent was like, we were kind of speaking and we're like, should we reach out to them? And then he did. And they immediately wrote back and were like, yeah, she's actually been on our radar for a while. And actually something's come up. The women's 100. And that's how it kind of came together. And just working with them, they're just honest. They're honestly the nicest team. I can't say it. They are one of the nicest teams I've ever worked for. Really. Just lovely. Yeah, they've got a great feeling in their head office. It's lovely.
- [43:30]
B
You mentioned just a second ago that you're always looking to keep moving. How you develop. Like, we'll see what is next. What is your style of work? Do you have a studio where, you know, look into new ideas? How do you experiment? What is your scrapbook? You know, are you influenced by the art on your walls? How do you keep moving?
- [43:50]
A
I. So a while ago, basically, I told myself to do a sketch, at least one sketch a day. But then that became really hard. So I was like, look, just when you get that fire feeling, because, you know, we all get. It comes rarely, but when it does, you just got to capture it. So I make sure when I get that feeling, I just get out a piece of, like, a new bit of material. So, like, at the moment, I'm on oil. I've told myself for years I want to learn oils. So now I'm actually doing a course in oils. And that's right now, is my next medium. But. But I love trying, I think trying different mediums. I work with charcoal, paint, oil, anything that, for me feels like something. I love textures and yeah, for me, developing is just sitting down and just getting a piece of something, whatever that is, whether it's paper, collage, and trying different mediums, I find experimenting with mediums the most exciting thing. So I guess that's how I develop. I just. I'm trying new things all the time.
- [44:59]
B
I think that makes sense when I see your work, some of the stuff as a digital illustration, some of the stuff is painted shop fronts and it works with your brain going, you know, I need to shake it up. I need differences and I need any different experiences.
- [45:13]
A
But it's funny how it then connects back together. It does all connect because, for instance, I was doing these charcoals, and then I started doing these, like, charcoal birds because I was kind of relating it to a project. So then I. I went through literally two months every day of doing these charcoal birds. I just became obsessed. And then I took those birds into my graphic work and they ended up on a shop front in Paris. So it does. And I would never have done that just by drawing it the way I usually draw. I would never have drawn those birds. But because I was just became obsessed, then that went back into my work. So I Think it's just that layering and ripping up and trying something new and then putting it into your other work. And that. Yeah, mixed media, I think, is really fun.
- [46:05]
B
I think I've spotted your birds on your website and they're incredible. I think I know exactly which ones they are and they look fantastic because they are still you, but they stand out so much as we're looking towards the future. Obviously the subject of AI comes up in so many conversations, so many articles, and I kind of feel like it's almost. It would be a redundant question to ask you about it because what you do very hardly ever touches the element of digital in a way. Like you're an expression of a person who is, know, longing for finding ways of, like, how to tell love stories and how to make them colorful and very human in a way as well. But how do you see your career? And I know this might be a slightly, sort of a big and sort of heavy question, but, like, how do you see what you do that you can potentially find new pockets of excitement, new ways of expressing yourself? Because we do have more tools, we have more ways of production, we have more ways of making things. With your theme of keeping moving, like, how do you visualize the next half a decade of your career?
- [47:12]
A
I'm an enthusiast. I love learning about new things. And I'm also a realist and I absolutely know AI is here and it's not going anywhere. I don't know how I will use it moving forward. I've absolutely used it for mockups and things like that. But for instance, I'm launching my. I don't like talking about this because it's very behind the scenes at the moment, but I'm working on my own kind of brand, on something else going on. And there's one bit where I wanted to show this product and I'm working with a 3D artist to kind of animate it and create this work. And I was trying to explain how I wanted it exactly, and then someone was like, oh, why don't you put it into mid journey? And I was like, oh, what? How do I even do that? Put it into mid Journey? And it came up with what I wanted, obviously really badly because I'd just barely done it. And so there was that. I was then, you know, up against what we are all going to go through is like human versus this. And I guess I've got this tool that does it. But right now, for me, I don't want that as my output. I want to work with this amazing artist I love his work. So right now what I feel is even though AI is there and that tool is there for me to use, there's something missing in that for me right now. And I guess what is missing in that is that interaction I'll have with another human. And I guess, yes, I can do it for me very easily. But then maybe something will be missed and something, you know, maybe me and this guy will come up with something and it will just be a real mistake. And we're like, actually that mistake's really nice. We like that. And I think that's something that I, even though I has a lot of mistakes, I love the fuck ups and you know, how we mess things up and we're like, oh, actually I really like that. Let's try that again. And yeah, I don't know, I guess I'm like every other artist. We know it's here, we know it, we're walking into this world, we can't ignore it. And I guess I think over the years we'll just have to figure it out, figure out how we use it. I for one, I'm not going to judge anyone for anything that I think the judgment in any way is. I think it's good to have judgments. And I think, yeah, I think we all just need to figure it out slowly, together again. Maybe I'm wrong in that, but I do, I think it's something that no one really knows the answer to. You can tell by how I'm answering that I'm still figuring it all out. I don't know. But the one thing I do think people are yearning for is human connection. I don't think that will ever go. I think we are like you say, we grow up in tribes. I think that we used to be in tribes. And I think that that's just something really important that we all yearn for.
- [50:20]
B
I think it really shows onto brands like who do you want to be and how do you want to conduct, you know, your audience, like how do you want to be run your business and how you want to do it? Because I've seen something on a TV the other day which was like a TV ad for some car. I've never heard of the brand before and it was so blatantly AI and not the good kind. It was like there were sheep running through other sheep on the T thinking what the fuck?
- [50:45]
A
It's very odd. It's very odd. I do find it strange, like when I was doing a talk and they had. I won't say who it was, but they had an AI company there talking to a room of a thousand creatives. And it was interesting because he was like, you know, come on. You know when you've got that fire and you can create. And he had 20 different chair designs behind him just floating midair, you know, And I was just sat there and I was like, oh, that's lovely. That's amazing. But there was something not there. I don't know, I just. I was like, yeah, okay, I can create everything in the world. But I guess it's like the thing I always say about production. Like, people always say to me, oh, you should do this and you should do that and you should make this and make that, and I make. I'm building something at the moment. And production and making something is more difficult than design. Like, you can make and design anything, but getting it from that, from sketch to actual product that you're selling is hard work. And there are so many different samples and making it and actually feeling it. And yeah, a lot can go wrong, which it has already. And I'm spending. I'm like, just so much money on wrong samples.
- [51:59]
B
That's the beauty of discovery. When you said, people tell me I should do this and I should do that and I should do this, it was like when people tell you what you should be doing, they should be off, like, doing something, whatever I need to be doing. Because ultimately it's between you and the thing, because you live in the story, you're expressing it, and you've got your own views. I mean, it's nice to ask for validation and maybe ask for second opinion. But what you described is almost like in a sort of semi weird parallel way, like you're describing your own view compared to, let's say, the view of AI. Like, the AI, I think, is like a good way of to see the mockup or good, like a what we used to sort of butcher together in Photoshop. Okay, this is what this could be and let's make this right.
- [52:39]
A
Absolutely. It's definitely, I think, in terms of mocking up and getting your, like, visuals, you know, in. In an easier way. Like we were kind of doing that before, as you say in Photoshop. The way I used to do my specs was in Photoshop, I'd get a shutter stock image and work with that. But so it's that basically it's just an easier way to get to your visual. So maybe in that way we'll get to things quicker and will have the tools, I guess, to, I guess, visualize it better. But it's what happens after that, I guess.
- [53:11]
B
Absolutely. And I mean what you describing brings me back to a quote by previous guest called Robert Hodgen who said things that take no effort are hard to value. And when you think about it, what you do takes an effort and it's easy to value because it's just you can tell how much graph's gone into it and what you do. Kelly, I love putting more color and joining the dots into your story because as I said, I've known about you and your work for pretty much as long as you've been out there doing your stuff. But I really enjoyed this conversation because there are some people who worry about their futures. I will never worry about yours because you're on the right path. You keep moving and keep searching what might be next. And yeah, your corner of the Internet corner of the world is colorful and it's so joyful that we're lucky to have you. So thank you.
- [53:58]
A
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
- [54:00]
B
You're welcome. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Likes podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding, and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.