← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Dare to find magic in straight lines - Lauren Hartstone (Sibling Rivalry)
00:56:40
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- [00:10]
A
It's changed everything. It's changed everything about how I work. So, yes, there's the feeling of curiosity and seeing life in a completely different way. You know, they ask me all kinds of questions that are funny and sad and weird, and I love it. And it makes me look at everything differently. So there's that. There's also just the phases of your life where I told you when I was at IAF and in that Gretel, even at that moment, you work all hours and I didn't care what I was missing. That's all I did. And I was totally happy to do it. But then you have these kids and suddenly, you know you have to. You have personal responsibilities that you just. You. They demand of you.
- [01:10]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinj. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I'm speaking with Lauren Heartstone, creative director and partner at Sibling Rivalry. She discovered that her real passion lies at the intersection of systematic brown thinking and emotional storytelling. In this conversation, Lauren discusses how becoming a mother fundamentally shift heavy on creativity, work and leadership, why admitting you know nothing about a sector can be your greatest creative asset and how the best stories usually exist inside what you're trying to represent. We talked about early days of mtv, creating title sequences and creative fearlessness. We also talked about staying excited about many places her work could go that keeps her creativity alive even after decades in the industry. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Lauren Heartstone. Hey, Lauren, it's great to have you here. How are you doing today?
- [02:53]
A
Good. Thanks for having me.
- [02:55]
B
You're most welcome. I'm excited to talk about storytelling, brands, people, sports, creativity. For those who may have not heard of Lauren Hearthstone or Sibling Rivalry, how would you introduce yourself? Who are you? What you do?
- [03:10]
A
I am a designer. I'm a creative director and I'm a partner at Sibling Rivalry. I am also a mom of two.
- [03:20]
B
I know that your primary passion in life is storytelling. Where did the passion for storytelling come to your life?
- [03:27]
A
I Don't know exactly where it came from. I've always been interested in storytelling, in art and design. My family's pretty creative. My mother was interested in painting. She ended up going into education, but she studied art. My brother is a musician. He actually studied sociology. My dad studied sociology. They are into human behavior and culture. So it's actually not that weird that I got into design and storytelling and creativity.
- [03:55]
B
I can just imagine the discussions around a dinner table. They don't sound or even ordinary at all. That's really interesting. Where did you grow up?
- [04:04]
A
Connecticut. It's not interesting at all.
- [04:07]
B
Well, I think your parents and your brother, I think, made up for it to make the place a little bit more interesting. Your mom's painting, was it hobby? Was it profession? What did she do?
- [04:17]
A
Hobby. And she'd kill. She'll kill me when she hears this. Right? Cause she thinks she's a terrible painter. But I love that she painted. And she came back to it later in life. My grandfather also painted later in life. I stole some of my mom's sketchbooks. I don't know. I love being surrounded by people who love art. And my brother actually was really good at art as well, so.
- [04:40]
B
Thanks. So you said your dad and your brother studied sociology. I would like to believe there were some conversations about human nature, how we behave, how we operate. Would you say the nature of storytelling and sort of intrigue for humans came from that time?
- [04:56]
A
Yeah. I think that I felt like I was going the other way because I was getting into art, which is hilarious because creative comes from insight. Right. So it's all. It all came full circle. But I thought I was departing because my brother was following in my father's footsteps by going into sociology. My dad owned a market research company. They were super analytical and talked forever about all kinds of behavior. And if you talk, any conversation with my dad and my brother will last a really long time. So I thought I was going into something different. And then, of course, I figured out that what I was doing was actually the next step after what they were doing. And so now I actually use them all the time for help, which is hilarious.
- [05:42]
B
Yeah. It's interesting when you said I was thinking I was going the other way, because ultimately we all go in the same way. We just find ourselves in the different parallels. So when you thought you were rebelliously going the other way, not that you said rebelliously, but feeling guilty about it, what did you study? What did you do? What was your draw into visual storytelling per se?
- [06:06]
A
So I started in, like, drawing and painting. Because that's what I knew. And I don't think that certainly motion was not really that big of a thing then, but I was studying fine art. I went to Mica, Maryland Institute, College of Art, over a summer program when I was in high school. I loved it. And then I decided I wanted it. I decided I wanted to pursue it. I think I got really into it there, and my parents were really supportive, but they did say I couldn't go to, like, an art school, just an art school. I had to go to a university and study art at a university so that I could also study academics and make that a big part of my education. And I, while, admittedly was a little frustrated by that. I think that was the right call. So I also studied English lit, and I went to Washington University in St. Louis, and I studied visual communications in English.
- [07:00]
B
That's interesting. Debates with parents. It comes up a lot on this podcast, especially for our generation, when the parents are still on the lookout. If you want to do this, maybe you should do it right, you know, Feels like maybe we're the last generation that needed an approval from our parents to do what we want to do. Because I don't think our children. I think they'll just do whatever they want to do.
- [07:24]
A
Oh, I don't think they're going to listen to anything I say. Absolutely anything. But it's funny, I was talking about that last night. I don't think they. They definitely will not. But at the time, I don't know, I think I was a little frustrated by it. But I do think that it was the right decision. I think that the more you work in this career, the more important it is to be able to be articulate and to present and to speak with clients of all different industries. And to be able to do that, I think to have, you know, have studied a lot of different things, I think that that was really helpful. But they were very encouraging to do something I loved and. And I love what I do. And I think that that's a pretty rare thing.
- [08:09]
B
I'm glad you still say I love what I do. Sometimes we fall out of love. Things get really difficult and tricky. But what I want to know as a student, what were you surrounded by? What was the sort of influences that kept you on track at uni and inspired?
- [08:26]
A
I was surrounded by a lot of different things. You know, I had friends that were actually, mostly. Most of my friends were not in the art school, so I don't know. My friends studied poli sci and Spanish and English and all Kinds of things. So I was immersed in art in the way that I, you know, all kids were and that they, you know, we slept in studio, we worked so hard, but my closest friends were not in the art school. And I really, it's. It actually goes back to what my parents were saying. I think I really enjoyed just being around lots of different kinds of people.
- [09:02]
B
I think so far it really feels like you are destined to do what you do now because you do stuff for so many different audiences, for so many different brands, people, clients. And it's, I would say it's already so easy to actually join those dots of thinking. Well, that makes sense because you get a. Creative types hanging out with the creative types somewhere, some at some other place and they're like, I'm going to be just a creative because of my, my expression of my soul. But you come in from a family that as a parent who's got market research company, in my opinion, that broadens the lens because it already, I think, prepares you for what's coming next. So that's very interesting. I mean, at least that's how I see it so far. So how did you then go from uni into. Into work? Basically, because what you do now, it makes perfect sense that the world of brand meets storytelling. But it was initially two different companies, one for the brand and one for storytelling that influenced your journey, where you are now. What did you do after uni?
- [10:07]
A
The first thing I did was I went to MTV. Actually, actually VH1 was my first internship. I was in college and I got there through an alumni. So I was a junior in college. I went to VH1 and it was amazing. I. It was probably one of the best experiences of my life. I was studying in the off air print department and VH1 was super small. It was a really exciting place to be at this time. And I walked across the hall and I met the on air team and I was like, what's going on in this dark room? And everyone has headphones on and I love it. And they were like animating stuff and I was so excited. And my college did not teach animation or anything like this, so got really into it. I made some friends over there. They sent me a copy of After Effects, which I gotta tell you, I learned very mildly. I've still like never really animated, but I got really interested in motion. I came back to college after that internship and in senior year I said, okay, I want to do motion. And they said, that's great. You're going to have to be on Your own in this because we don't teach it. So good luck. So I started animating a little bit in flash, which is funny now, and I just immersed myself in motion. I was obsessed with title sequences and I was like, one day I'm going to work at Imaginary Forces. And that's what I wanted to do. So I went back to New York after I graduated. I think I was too nervous maybe to contact if. I don't know if I did. But what I did do is I went right back to mtv. They had, I don't know, like a six month gig for me. So I went in there, did some work for them and then I kind of quickly went over to the agency studio side and I'm very glad I did that. I went over to a company called Stardust. I was there for a little bit then loyal Casper and then I found my way to Imaginary Forces and I was there for five years. And that was sort of like my first moment where I was like, I am exactly where I want to be, doing exactly what I want to do. And it was like real happiness. We'll be back after a quick break.
- [12:32]
B
This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Co. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @laxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. I mean, wow, this escalated quickly.
- [13:22]
A
Yep.
- [13:22]
B
You go on internship, you get to see people doing stuff and all of a sudden like you, you know that you want to work for imaginary phone seats. I'm still want to find. I mean again, on what I normally do on this podcast, I'll take it always one step back because why did you choose internship at mtv? Why did you choose to do this? Because so far it's hanging out with people who are not so creative and I'll be hanging out with people that, you know, doing market research. And then we've got mtv. So how did you make that call to go there? Because it clearly I would like to believe changed what you do and showed you the way. Right.
- [13:59]
A
Music was a huge part of my life. My brother was a musician so his band used to practice in our basement and I was just always around it. So I went to shows every weekend I just loved. I loved music. When I was in college, I went to Central St. Martin's for a summer program, and I partially did that because I loved Brit pop. Like, I just wanted to be around music. So. I mean, that sounds ridiculous now that I'm saying that out loud, but, yeah, I wanted to be in music, so I thought that and it. So it was the perfect opportunity to be working around music and doing design.
- [14:34]
B
Did you know at that time what you wanted to make? Because being from the same generation, I guess the idea of the thing, the subject, you know, the process was more of a draw rather than a specific piece of work that you would go, oh, this. This is amazing. I want to be as good as this, or I want to create that. Do you have anything of that type in your life that you'd be going like, this is my target, or this is my sort of destination? Destination number one. Yeah.
- [15:05]
A
I wanted to make seven. Who didn't?
- [15:09]
B
Okay, now. Now it begins to make sense. Yeah. So do you remember when you saw the title sequence for the first time, how you felt?
- [15:16]
A
Yeah, I was in college and I saw it and I thought it was the best thing I've ever seen. And I love David Fincher, and I loved Imaginary Forces. And I was like, that was it. That's what I wanted to be doing. And a lot of people have careers that are these, like, you know, very weavy lines. And mine has not been that at all, which sometimes I find concerning, because I haven't been like, oh, let me try that, and let me try that. I've been on this very kind of straight path of, like, this is what I want to do, and then I keep going. But I just knew that that's what I wanted. I just. I was so obsessed with the idea of motion and time and sound and how they interacted, and it was just not really a thing then. I mean, it was. Obviously, it was a little bit, because Seven was out there, but it wasn't like motion was being, like, taught all over the place. Right. And I did this title sequence when I was at school. I just was doing whatever I could to learn motion. So I did it in flash. And someone over, I guess a teacher over in the film school at my college saw it, and he came over and he came and talked to me. And I don't know, it was like. I just had this great conversation with him. I didn't even know we had film at my college, and I didn't really know that I wanted to study film, if that makes sense. Because it felt to me like something totally different. Of course, now I know it's not, but I don't know, it was amazing. And so talking with him kind of opened it up for me. So, yeah, I really went for it.
- [16:55]
B
I think there was something quite rebellious about Flash. It was like, when I think about it from a creative perspective, how it was used some 20 years ago, it was like. It was almost like, do you want to see some clever shit? Yeah. Okay, here's Flash. Let's do it. You know, like, it's just. It was. It was a medium of, like, showing how to take things to the edge and then beyond. Like, what can you do with Flash with a tool that potentially wasn't even intended for such things?
- [17:23]
A
You could, like. I think it was called, like, shape tween or something. I don't know, you could morph shapes. And I thought that was so cool. No, but when I graduated, I. So I was animating in Flash slightly, and then I was designing in Quark. And for some reason, Photoshop wasn't really a big thing taught in my school either. I designed in Quark. I mean, we learned letterpressing. It was all very, like, kind of traditional. And I will never forget when I graduated and I was at. I think Stardust was sort of like my first job job, and I was working with PJ Richardson, who you actually interviewed. Right. And he was like. He was my mentor there, took me under his wing and taught me Photoshop. And it was awesome. And I'll never forget, I swear it was like three in the morning and he was like, oh, my God, what are you doing, Lauren? He was just, like, just teaching me things. It was great.
- [18:13]
B
What's really amazing, that actually now I managed to really join the dots of, like, white imaginary forces. Because he was seven, because he was that title sequence that changed so many lives. And there's still. I can still see LinkedIn post people going, yes, this. This changed my life. And having spoken to Tim Thompson about the actual mechanics of the production of, like, 26 miles of film that they put together, I can't even process, you know, two train tickets. Like, this is too complicated for me. Like, how do you do 26 miles? But you got there after Stardust and what did it feel like? Because obviously, as you said, your trajectory, you feel like you're going linear. Like you go in exactly, bit by bit, every checkpoint, everything makes sense. You don't sort of go left or right and find yourself and come back on a. On the main path. So what was it like when you entered imaginary forces. How did you get the job and what did it feel like to get there?
- [19:06]
A
You know what? I got there through pj. I forgot that part. What did he do? He connected me with Michelle Doherty, who was a great mentor for me. She's a really great friend, and she's also been my client. So, yeah, we've carried on our relationship. But, yeah, she. He connected me with Michelle, and she connected me with someone with Steve Fuller in the New York office, and he hired me, and it was fantastic. I mean, there have been many, I don't know, generations of imaginary forces. Like, I can't describe it, and I think anyone that's worked there has this feeling, like. But I feel like when I was there, it was the absolute best. It was so fantastic. We were all friends. We went out all the time, and we worked so hard, like, late nights, all the weekends, and it was great. And the projects were so awesome. I mean, so many title sequences. The Pacific, Boardwalk Empire, Pink Panther Mummy. I mean, amazing stuff. It was so fun. I loved, like, every minute of it.
- [20:18]
B
How would you describe the way of learning from some of the best people in the business? Like, what was that like when we now have what I call the symptom of. Of unresolved issues, which is called the imposter syndrome. But I kind of feel like 20 years ago, 25 years ago, there was no one talked about imposter syndrome because everyone just was too busy. I'm oversimplified, obviously. I'm not saying that it didn't happen to anyone, but would you agree that somehow the world was less noisy and exciting and we were creating anew, as you said about a few minutes ago, we were talking about tweening shapes in flash, and that was like, a point of discovery. So maybe Buddha dared to say that the world was more exciting, therefore you were less preoccupied of what might be as opposed to what should be?
- [21:08]
A
Absolutely. I think it was just about. In that moment, I feel like all I wanted to do was get my boards picked. All I was thinking about, I was like, get my frames in there and then get the client to pick them. And that's all I wanted. Which sounds selfish and competitive when I say it out loud, but that was the goal. And I think that was what they wanted of me too. But I learned so much. Karen Fong taught me. I don't know everything. She taught me so much, and I loved learning from her, and she had her own specific way, and, I don't know, it was amazing, but I think she liked that Drive, right? That's what she wanted from me. And I think sometimes I wish we could still just be that way. Just make things and get excited and be in it. Just break out of all the noise of everything else.
- [22:03]
B
That's really interesting, what you said. But before we talk more about that, for those who didn't work in a specific field, as you did, you said, pick my boards, pick my frames. What did you do? What was your role and what was your magic on getting your boards picked?
- [22:20]
A
So I started there as a senior designer and. And then I worked my way to an art director and then a director. I started directing live action while I was there. And basically what that meant was I was designing storyboards for a title sequence, for a commercial, for an end tag, whatever it was. And everyone there, the way it worked was everyone designed their own storyboards and we threw them into a deck and they were presented. And back then, I think it was a little bit less strategic. It was just funny. But I think we were all just. I don't know. It was very creative. But, yeah, everyone just designed their own way through it. And I think in some ways it was, like, a little less collaborative, but that wasn't like it was. If it was like. I think it was, to be honest, though, a little bit of the way of that time. And also maybe a little bit specific to title sequences, right? Because you're designing step by step of a sequence, and that can be hard to collaborate with lots of different people on in those frames, right? Yeah, it's an amazing experience.
- [23:33]
B
It was less strategic. I mean, looking back, there was the sign of the times, I mean, when you said, I wish it was. I wish we were that way a bit more now, a bit less noise. That was the age of innocence. Like, most of these things at that time, from my understanding and from my experience, were, like, done for the first time. And as you said, sometimes being a little bit more selfish and going for your sense of identity, for your ego, going, hey, I can potentially make difference in this world. I can make a name for myself. It was a different. Because now we work in different times and things are a lot more strategic, a lot more black and white, a lot more shareholder driven, you're thinking, oh, what are we going to do? And interestingly, I was listening to a clip by Rory Sutherland and he was saying that in current advertising, the reason why everything is a little bit plain is because there's a fear of actually making something that's polarizing. Because if you make safe campaigns, people don't complain. But if you make a campaign that obviously ruffles the feathers, people complain and therefore it goes up the chain and people are not happy. And he said, for that reason, you cannot ever imagine series like Friends ever being made again, because there's so many wrong moments in this. And. But at that time, there was still elements of discovery, like we were pushing the boundaries, trying to find what was the right, what was the wrong, even though, you know, we're talking about late 90s, early 2000s. And I would like to believe that Friends were slightly less. Less strategic to whatever's being made today.
- [25:08]
A
Yeah, I think it was a little bit different then. And I'm not saying it was better because I think it's so important to be strategic, but I do think that if we could just be a little more fearless, it could go a long way. The world is changing very quickly. Right. And we want to stay true. Brands want to stay true to their heritage or to their audience and their fan base, whatever it is. But they also have to stay true to the times that are changing and to the new generations. And that means that they have to change too. And that can be really uncomfortable. But it's important, right? And so I think that it's important to be a little bit fearless and to make those changes. And it doesn't have to be permanent, you know what I mean? Like, there's so much fear, I think, because there's a sense of permanence with brands, but maybe it doesn't have to be permanent. Right. You know, campaigns are ephemeral and we all know that. And so they have more power to be more expressive or whatever. And I think brands hold back sometimes a little bit, and I wish that they didn't. I wish that brands could feel a little bit more willing to go there because they can change over time.
- [26:25]
B
That's true. It's interesting that you said, I wish we were more fearless. I think from the creative perspective, would you say we'd be more contained? Because fearlessness doesn't always come from a creative team. It comes from more to people who pay for it.
- [26:41]
A
Yeah, I think so.
- [26:43]
B
So you stayed at if for five years?
- [26:46]
A
Yes.
- [26:46]
B
Why did you move? Why did you go?
- [26:49]
A
I got a little restless, I guess. I did a lot of title sequences and I wanted to try something new, so I went to Gretel and they are an amazing branding company. And I mean, one of the best. Right.
- [27:05]
B
So you've gone actually from obviously storytelling, lots of title sequences into more brand focused work. Did you feel like you needed to explore this was there another sort of magnetic pull towards it or it was a change of work a little bit.
- [27:22]
A
It was a real change of work. And at Imaginary Forces I had also been directing a lot of live action. So I went from doing directing live action campaigns and title sequences to real brand focused work. And it was a massive change. And I think when I got there I was excited and then I was instantly scared and I felt, I think nervous for the first time that I was like a fish out of water. And I think I needed to like step back and listen and learn. And I'm so glad that I did. I mean, I think a lot of people say this. If it was like going to school a little bit there, like I got a good education in branding and I'm so glad that I did that because I do really fundamentally believe that branding and storytelling should be intertwined. And we will be so much better at one if we know the other. Right. Because a great storytelling is usually better if we understand how to be systematic. Because it's not going to be a 32nd spot anymore. It's just not. It's going to be a system of social content or it's going to be 360 everywhere. And so it's going to be a system of stories. And so you have to understand the system behind it. And if it's a system, then hopefully you're creating a story that's resonating. Right? So I think that it's so crucial that you understand the other. And so it's symbiotic and I'm really glad I did that.
- [29:07]
B
You said two words and my ears kind of pricked up because you said listen and learn. Those are two crucial things that any creative can do every day of any day, any hour, any minute, is just to listen, step back and actually take in what needs to be done, what's being discussed, what's being explained, what's the requirements. Because you know that I don't like calling this ego, but it's a sense of identity. Like you want to have part of something, you want to be validated in a creative process. Therefore you volunteer the first idea that comes to your mind only to realize that's not going anywhere. And you said it dreadfully. It was like going to school. You were scared and you had to listen and learn. If you remember, what was it that overwhelmed you straight away to realize that there's the other side of brand and storytelling?
- [29:58]
A
There was a system to branding and listen. Every company does it differently. Every company, there's a Process. And certainly with different challenges and different brands, even you modify it, of course, but there are systems around it, and I had to learn that. And I think I was so confident before. And I know there's. There's plenty of ego in creative. And, you know, all I was saying about, like, trying to get your boards in, like, all of that, I feel like I rose so fast, and then I got to Gretel, and I was like, oh, my God, I don't know anything. And that was. You know, that was scary. So I had to, like, step back and learn the systems behind branding and learn the systems behind systems, because they're quite complicated, and I was not really building systems. I was. I. I remember I did this branding job at Imaginary Forces, and yes, it was a system, but it was literally based on how you felt. I shot all of these beautiful pieces of footage that were actually miniatures. I created all of these scenes that were these amazing miniatures, and it was mysterious and cinematic and beautiful. And we filmed all these vignettes, and then, yes, I threw them into these, like, little clips that were then used across a network. But I. To. In all fairness, I was not thinking about the system. I was just thinking about how it made you feel. And it was successful because it did make you feel something. But I don't think I was, like, actually understanding the other part of it. And so I think at Gretel, I really had to learn the other side.
- [31:47]
B
When you talk about the miniatures and when you talk about those clips that make you feel something, that kind of takes me back from my experience to the VH1, the MTV, you know, the random stuff, like the nonsensical, the things that surprise you. The things like, why does it exist? And of course it needs to exist. This makes sense, even though it doesn't make any sense. So it's interesting how we started talking about the world of brand and, like, how the systematic approach needs to add up, because ultimately, not 20 years on, things find themselves in a totally different application in a lot more sort of fragmented marketing, where we need to basically put things in a different places in a different way. But I still need to go back to the true ideas. So from Gretel, you went to sibling. And when you said the brand and storytelling need to live together, it sounds like you find your home.
- [32:42]
A
Yes. But you're missing two huge things that happened. I had two children in that time. I have to mention it because it's important. I had two girls, and I had one of them while I was at Gretel. And Then I had the other one right upon leaving, and then I started at sibling right afterwards. So I say that because they're a huge part of my life and I love what I do and I. And I will always love what I do. But yeah, I've. I've managed to find some balance with them, and that was really hard when they were very little. But yeah, so I, I had these kids and then I went over to sibling and I not only was trying to find this balance with my kids, but I was trying to find this balance between storytelling and branding. And for me, sibling was really that perfect place to do it.
- [33:42]
B
So, speaking of your daughters and parenthood, parenting teaches us things we never expected to learn. How would you say that it influenced the way you work, the way how you see the world? As a parent seeing the world from different sets of eyes, what was that change for you?
- [33:58]
A
It's changed everything. It's changed everything about how I work. So, yes, there's the feeling of curiosity and seeing life in a completely different way. You know, they ask me all kinds of questions that are funny and sad and weird and I love it. And it makes me look at everything differently. So there's that. There's also just the phases of your life where I told you when I was IAF and in that Gretel, even at that moment, you work all hours and I didn't care what I was missing. That's all I did. And I was totally happy to do it. But then you have these kids and suddenly, you know, you have to. You have personal responsibilities that you just. You. They demand of you. And the good news is that your career actually shifts at the same time because as you grow into leadership, your value isn't measured anym or in the hours that you're worked and the volume of your work, but it's in your vision and your clarity and your impact. And so I really believe that I've learned to work so much smarter and faster and I have way more confidence than I had then. And I. I think that my kids have weirdly given me that.
- [35:18]
B
You said earlier when you went to Gretel that you felt like you didn't know anything. And I kind of felt that about parenting. You feel like you don't know anything and then it happens. So that's interesting how that influenced the way on the way to the sibling and with sibling rivalry, I mean, I've not been aware of sibling until very recently, about six months ago, maybe a year ago. And I'm just discovering the world of work that's being created by this incredible outfit and these people like you, Mitch, and others, that creating work that is so fascinating is so, I mean, engaging, mesmerizing, you know, like. And it feels perfectly like how those two words of brand and storytelling really work. So what was that again? Then we got kind of chapter four, let's say we got, you know, we got imaginary forces, we got breathtaking, we got children, and then we got now sibling. What did it feel like? That was just sort of different view on life. Work, creativity, stepping into somewhere new. Did it feel like, again, you didn't know anything, or were you actually ready?
- [36:24]
A
I think it took me a minute because I had to figure out the cadence of my life a little bit of being a creative leader and having two very little kids. Right. They were so tiny. That's really challenging as a mom. Right. And I don't think there were a ton of female leaders in this industry with tiny children. And so it was definitely a challenge. So I had to kind of find my footing. But I. I did it. You know, I got through it, and that's. That's all you can do. Right? I just. I just needed to get through that time. I didn't want to take time off. You know, I took, like, a. My normal parental leave, and I think five months later, I was back, and I wanted to just get back to work. And that's. My husband knows this best. If I'm not working, I am not happy. So, like, I have to be back in it. So I. Yeah, I think I got there relatively quickly, and then once I was back in it, I was back in it, and. And then I was able to kind of, like, get that cadence and that rhythm. And then, yeah, I felt like as I kind of grew into that role of creative director and then eventually executive creative director, everything really started to come to crystallize for me, and I felt so much better providing leadership and providing vision across the board and also still being able to see my kids at home.
- [37:50]
B
It's really interesting what you said. If I'm not working, I'm not happy. Is there a sort of unfinished business? Do you feel like there was so much more to give that you were, like, itching to get back?
- [38:00]
A
Oh, my God, yes. I can't. I have to be. I have to be creating. I have to be working.
- [38:08]
B
What's your relationship with your creativity and work? Because, you know, sometimes you have to be a little bit disciplined and be present with children and go like, yes, this is their time now. But of course, you can Never stop yourself, stop thinking, because you can never. You can never do that. But did you find that at times when you cannot work, you actually appreciate the time, you actually got more time to think?
- [38:34]
A
I am not great at turning off like that. And I know that's not. That's not what I should say. I wish I said I put everything down and I sit with my kids and I put. You know, and my kids, by the way, are 12 and almost 10. What I have found better for me, and this is not for everyone, but what I have found better is to keep them completely merged. And the reason why I do that is because then it doesn't stress me out. When I tried to keep them apart, then I'd be like, oh, my God, like, I have to get back to work because all of this stuff is piling on me. Or I'm on vacation and I'm. And I. I know I can't work and I don't do that anymore. Like, I will rather just take the call, jump into that, think about it when I can. And I keep it completely flexible and back and forth, and then I'm not stressed out. It's just a part of my life, and my kids know it's a part of my life, and they love what I do, and they see all my work and. And it's fine. You know, I just keep it all together as one.
- [39:37]
B
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I mean, there's so many people who on this show talked about the fact, like, how they are addicted to their phone and how much they know they should be doing something different, but we can only be who we are. You know, I think there's, there's, there's potentially some sort of outside expectations of how we should be operating. But ultimately, you want to be who you are and do things that feel right and that, you know, doesn't sort of impede any way of being expressive. Because I feel with children, what we do creatively, it actually shows them what is the possibility. Because so many people from our generation obviously keep saying it that way, but from previous generations, and I say, we didn't know that that thing could be the thing. How many times I've spoken to someone, they were like, I didn't know graphic design existed. I didn't know motion existed. The thing wasn't taught. Now, ultimately, like, we showing them the possibilities that we didn't have. So I think it's, it's, it's. Yeah, keeping it flexible sounds like a perfect way of doing Things and should we know what it's all about? So with sibling and the leadership and responsibilities and small to young children, you got into work. So you said you took you a minute to get into it, but once you get going, things go quite exciting quite quickly because you've shared with me. You shared with me your videos for the B and H store, which I've absolutely adored. It's an incredible work. But it feels like the work that you did, obviously on the brand side and the storytelling side and put it all together, it is quite remarkable. So how did that work come together, if you can still remember?
- [41:13]
A
It's one of my favorite ones. This project came in and, oh my God, I wanted this job so badly. I was so excited about it. So we went in, we pitched it, and actually the way it was working was it was with B and H and it was with Google. So Google actually was obviously the platform because it's on YouTube. And then Google would provide the measurements around it. So when we would create these films for B and H, they would then measure the data of how they were performing and then we were able to like, actually modify based on how they were performing, which was incredible. And I never had never done that before. But anyhow, that's sort of another side to the story. So B and H basically came to us and they said, people who know us love us, and that's great, but there are a lot of people who don't know who we are, and we want to reach that audience. We want to be on YouTube, we want to put videos on there, but we don't know what we want them to be. And so we had to come up with basically phases of creative just creating brand awareness and getting it out into. Getting it out into the world and trying to get a new audience for them, a younger audience, a more modern audience, more women. I mean, this is sort of the brief I get from every client. But so we created three phases for them. The first phase was brand awareness. That was one of my favorite. Oh, my gosh. I went and basically lived at the store. I went through all the aisles. I got to know all of the employees. I got to know like. Like the corporate. Everyone who works there. And I think. I think why I loved it so much is because they are so honest. It's. They are so true to who they are. And I. And they just really are sincere and direct and they have a kind of quirky and unique personality. And all I wanted to do was celebrate them, right, and. And really honor their personality and their values and let people in on it. Right? So that's really all it is. And it's so funny because in branding and in storytelling, oftentimes you're looking for some bigger insight or something outside. You're looking at the competition, you're looking at something different. And usually it's just inside. It's just like. It's just them. That's all it was. I was like, how do we just let people see exactly who they are? And that's what made it so great. So, yeah, I filmed the Brief History of B H, and it was a wonderful opportunity to just represent exactly who they are a little. Kalaji. I went and interviewed them, and I got Ed Burns to do the vo and that was hilarious. He is one of my favorite filmmakers. Mekan will joke about this endlessly with me because I love him. So. But. But my writer on it, Amy Swift, she actually had a connection to him. We reached out to him. He loved B and H so much that he was like, absolutely, I'll do it. And he stayed with us as the voice of B and H. And he was perfect because he had this, like, New York sensibility. And, you know, obviously a filmmaker uses all of BH products, and it was great. So that we did the Brief History and then the meet. The staff was also amazing. Cause, you know, their staff is literally. They are amazing. They will sell you a $500 camera instead of a $5,000 camera if they believe it's right for you. And I love the conveyor belt in the store. So we decided we would just film along this conveyor belt and just show the personalities of all the people. I filmed them at, like, three in the morning, all of the real people at B and H. And that was so fun. It was. Yeah. It's one of my most happy memories of projects.
- [45:19]
B
I can see that. I mean, yeah, when you said it was just to celebrate them, just like, sometimes, you know, brand story is just right there. Sometimes you don't have to invent anything. And when I watched those videos one after another, I was like, I just don't want it to stop. It was like. It felt like a season, like a sitcom. It felt like a comedy series. It felt so brilliant. Because when you, as you say, celebrate the people who work there, who have worked there for years and years and years, are so immersed in their world and actually believe in what they believe, it's. Yeah, it was shining for. Every single frame. Was just like, this is incredible. And now I know also how you did that ship. You just used to convey about. I was like, how did you do that? Oh, now it makes sense. Absolute sense. But from that work, which obviously is quite interesting, that you said also there was a data that you were sort of tweaking how it was performing.
- [46:10]
A
What's interesting is the data showed that people didn't want to see the products. People. People were more interested in the people. So actually the data worked. It was. The data worked for me because I was like, yes, I don't want to show the products, I want to show the people. You know, you'd think that the data wouldn't work on the behalf of the creative. And in these instances, it actually did. It was pretty cool.
- [46:29]
B
That's really awesome. It's awesome to hear that. If you were to fast forward to what you do now with Sibling, you find yourself in a slightly different spectrum of storytelling. Bridge happens around sports. And you did talk of Barcelona and you said, a client came to me, asked me to work on this project, and I said, I know nothing about sports, and I want to know, how did you feel then when you went into that meeting and said, look, I know nothing about this. What was that sort of liberation, that moment?
- [47:02]
A
Well, I will say this person's a friend of mine, so it was a little bit easier to have that conversation. I was. We were talking about this project and he kind of knew I wasn't super, like, into this sport. And he was like, listen, it's okay. You gotta do what you do for this sport. And I thought two things. One, first of all, that's an amazing way to think. You know, we need to bring what we have to every sector. It doesn't matter if you know the sector or not. You know, we offer a fresh perspective. And I think that's always important to keep in mind. You know, we offer something. We are experts in what we do. So whether we know the sector or not, we're going to learn about it. But we bring some. We bring a fresh perspective. And the second thing that it brought was, oh, my God, sports need help. Well, I've been resisting it because I think they look bad, but why not try to change it? And so that's sort of what's brought me here.
- [48:06]
B
You have examples in your talk of those sports graphics. I'm not sure if you call them machines or robots or something. It was just like that sort of overly 3D stuff when you were talking about it. I was thinking about stuff like, why? Because literally, I mean, as you said in your talk, close your eyes. She said, close your eyes and imagine the sports graphics. And I'm thinking, oh, yeah, potentially about last 15 years of sports graphics come to me and just like, you've got these extruded 3D, glossy little bevel stuff. I've always felt like it was quite American. It was quite strong and bullish. And I think you think about a bit of a theater, but the way you flip things on its head and what you do with it, like, again, fusing the brand architecture and the way how you can bring in storytelling, which feels true to the situation, but maybe not the theater work for as long as it did, but again, talking about liberation, like, how did you feel doing the things and being able to do them differently that signal a change in the way you work?
- [49:11]
A
Excited. Just so excited to try something new. And I think, I feel that at the beginning of every job, I'd be curious if every creative feels this way. But for me, the very beginning of a job is always the most exciting. Right. Because you're like, there's so much potential and so much excitement and you don't know where it's going to go. And so the moment I got into this, I was like, I had that feeling of, oh, my gosh, there's so many places that this can go. And I still feel that way. And that's a really cool feeling because I think that this industry has a lot of opportunity and it's been. It's at its infancy, you know, that it's been living in this way for so long and it's almost been accepted. I do believe, especially in the States, I've seen in the uk, I've seen some work that is definitely on its way. And I just feel like in the States there's more robots. I don't know why that is. So there's a certain aesthetic here, but I believe there's a way to make it so that game experience is more elevated and sophisticated and younger people and more women are going to want to watch it. And yeah, I think there's just a lot more places it can go because.
- [50:31]
B
With the work that you're doing, you're trying to bring the youth to the game as well as work with the core demographic. And one of the core demographics is your dad.
- [50:42]
A
Yes.
- [50:42]
B
And now I'm thinking what you said at the beginning, like, now I. Now I work with my dad. So, you know, with his market research and him being a core demographic, I just kind of excited for bringing back that sort of conversation from around a dinner table into the workplace going like, hey, you're my core demographic. What can I learn from you?
- [51:02]
A
I do it all the time. I call him or when we are together, I ask him over dinner and he gives me all of the things that he likes or doesn't like. And it's super helpful. I mean, he watches every sports game and he's the most honest and logical person I have ever known. He will walk me through what he thinks and why. He will tell me why what I did was not a good idea and it's fine. And he'll stand by it, right? He's very logical about it. So it's great. I try not to be offended. It's fine.
- [51:40]
B
That's really funny because on the other side, obviously you got your daughters that they're the future, and you get a similar feedback from them.
- [51:48]
A
They're very funny. I think that they enjoy it. They love sports. Sophie's very into soccer and Eliza's very into volleyball. I have yet to work on volleyball. That's my next goal. And they're very excited that I've been working on sports and they haven't given me any criticism. So I'm really happy about that. They're mostly happy.
- [52:10]
B
Mostly happy. It's quite a tough group of people to satisfy when they've got absolutely no filter when they think what they think. So this is interesting. One thing you just said, I think, which summarizes the way you work, and you said, there's so many places this could go. And it really. When I think about how we can summarize the conversation, it's so many places this could go. Even though it's been kind of linear path. It's so amazing to hear that after everything that you've done and everything that you're working on right now, there's still excitement about where this can go. Like, what can you create and how can you influence so many people with the work you do, in a way of them being excited about what the sport is, can offer, what it can do, how we can sort of bring people together. So I think that's a pretty amazing place to be.
- [53:01]
A
It is an amazing place to be. I think it might have been a straight line, but I am happy I'm here. I think Joe and Mekan have done everything for me to make sure that I am here. I mean, I've been here for 10 years and I came here specifically to do this because of them. When I got here, they. I don't know how much you know about them, but Joe has a very specific style and Mekan has a very specific style. And I was like, I have to see what this is about. They feel like a very interesting pair and I want to work with them, right? And so when I came here, they knew my approach, right? And I don't know, they've always given me the time and the space to do what I do. And surely they make fun of me all the time, but they let me do it. And, you know, I might be rigorous at times, but they allow that. And I. I think it's really important to find a place where you feel your best self and you gotta stretch and you gotta learn, but you also have to feel confident. Find a place where you can be you and do the work you wanna be doing and you gotta have a great team. And, you know, I have definitely played a role building this team because I've been here for so long, but this team is magic. It's an amazing group of people and they're the people that make this all happen.
- [54:33]
B
That's fantastic. What I normally do, I just scan my notes to summarize the question of what would I finish with? And as you were talking about, I want to feel I can work, I can feel my best self. And I'm just literally looking at the word feel, which I wrote down earlier. And everything that I feel that you've told me about your work is very much about the expression of yourself, about how you feel and how it makes other people feel. So, yeah, thank you for what you do. Thank you for talking to me today and I'm excited to see how many places this could go.
- [55:06]
A
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It's been fun.
- [55:09]
B
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.