← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provides them with value. So thank you for being here and for helping out. Thank you.
- [00:38]
B
Being self taught or just not having so much formal education, it also means you're asking a lot more questions. And I'm always that person. I'm not the person who's going to ask for directions to get somewhere or to get a recommendation. Something like there's just, there's no embarrassment in that, I guess. Or fear of I'm going to be an idiot is like I always want to be that person in the room. And I think even now when I think of the people that I work with is I'm not the smartest person in the room. And that's exactly where I want to be. I want to be around people that are challenging me and then I feel that I can ask those questions because. Because I think like it's easier for me to break the rules because of it, because I don't know the rules. And I think that I thought for sure for years that was a huge hindrance and that was going to hold me back. And I realized that was actually a superpower.
- [01:30]
A
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radin Malinj. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I am speaking with Mitch Monson, Executive Director of Creative and Partnerships at Sibling Rivalry. In our conversation, he shares his extraordinary journey from self taught graphic designer to created iconic work for print, Marvel and the Olympics. With a unique background spanning military, nuclear, submarine service and backcountry snowboarding, Mitch offers insights on risk taking, leadership and the power of saying yes to opportunities that initially seemed beyond your your capabilities. This conversation explores how a young Minneapolis design company landed Prince as a client leading to the creation of his famous love symbol. Mitch also reveals how his self taught background became a superpower, allowing him to break rules he never learned and approach creativity without traditional constraints. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Mitch Monson. Hey Mitch, welcome to the show.
- [03:21]
B
Hey, nice to see you. It's great to be here.
- [03:24]
A
Likewise. So good to see you. I think you've got such an illustrious career that you've had so far that the concept of daring creativity, daring achievements are just, I was going to say littered. But it's scattered all over your career so far, so. So for those who may have never heard of Mitch Munson, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:44]
B
Well, I'm Mitch Munson and I am the executive director of Creative and Partnerships at Sibling Rivalry. We're both in New York and in LA and pretty much all over the world. My role really, it's interesting and it's why I'm really excited to chat today because I've always been an executive creative director designer, so I've always been a maker. But the past three years a big part of my career has been change to also business development because I have a lot of background as an owner. So I think I'm excited to talk about that. But that's kind of the different part of my role now that I've been at Sibling Rivalry. And our company itself does a lot of work in the entertainment, tech and music spaces. We do a lot of work both in production as well as in brand design. And then actually always what's our biggest question is what's the sibling rivalry mean? And I think the name itself is a lot of our ethos. I guess we have a Dutch and a British founding partner and I think that's kind of where it starts. And it's about having that relationship with our team and our clients that we're always challenging each other and really pushing for excellence. So that's a little bit about me.
- [04:56]
A
You and I have something in common. We are both self taught graphic designers and I found that sort of non traditional process of getting into all of this exceptionally liberating because nobody tells you what you should do, should be doing or what you shouldn't be doing. But with your beginnings of you being as a graphic designer, one of your first clients and one of the first pieces of work that you've done totally struck me when I've discovered you and your work. It's like, wait a minute, that symbol that I've known for most of my life is your work. So for those who might not know what I'm talking about, how would you explain this?
- [05:38]
B
Well, I think it's interesting because the way we start that story is you never know when you're working on a project where that's going to go or what the legacy is going to be of that particular piece. And I think our original opportunity to work with Prince was exactly that is, I think we are really all young in our career. We started a company when I was 27 with two other partners. So we were only two or three years into our building of this business. And really to get the opportunity to work with him in any way, shape or form was amazing. So we were just kind of those young kids that said yes to everything that he asked. And we just kept doing more and more. And just as part of that process, he was looking at getting out of his contract with Warner Brothers. And this love symbol became one of the ways that he introduced himself to the world or reintroduced himself. So we were lucky enough to be around at that time.
- [06:37]
A
How do you even get in contact with Prince in the first place? How did that happen?
- [06:41]
B
That's a great question. So the one thing that's great just was so great about him is that he had, as an artist, a real attachment to the state of Minnesota where he grew up. So he used a lot of local artists. So besides production and design and stuff like we do, a lot of musicians and other talent were based in Minnesota. And again, we are a pretty young company. Our work was really much more corporate, commercial type of stuff that we were doing. So to get an opportunity with him, it was just word of mouth. In. In Minneapolis, when one of his producers and his creative directors heard about us, he just showed up on a Sunday, you know, Sunday morning to come see our space. After hearing about us, he literally looked like he jumped off the stage. You know, he had his full yellow outfit coming out of his full yellow BMW and walked through our space on a Sunday. And by the next week, we were starting to work with him. And he just had. I think from that point forward, as I'm sure you've had with other celebrity or arts or sports clients, is that once you kind of strike up a really good relationship with them, it just gets really personal and you get asked to do a lot of amazing things. And that was the beginning of the rocket ship. We then spent about a year and a half doing music videos and doing a lot of other design for anything from album covers to the stage performances that he's doing in Tokyo to whatever. Like, you start opening that door and it just leads to so many crazy things. So we were really fortunate.
- [08:19]
A
I have to ask young company Celebrity client. And you're not doing just a little bit. You're doing everything from stages to album covers to Love Symbol. I mean, it's incredible. As you know, on my show, I talk a lot about confidence. I talk about the trajectory of a creative where, especially at younger age, it feels a little bit scary. You feel like you want to be daring, but you don't have that experience of selling your point or selling your idea. Going with his clients as big as prints, going into the creative battle, did it feel overwhelming? Did it feel like you were at the right place at the right time with the right resilience, the right toolkit? Or was it like a big washing machine of experience going? It just worked out well.
- [09:02]
B
I think you're always intimidated with especially an artist like that, because the other thing is, I was such a fan, and actually all of us, my other partners, too, are just such fans of Prince that it's just. It's again, working with one of your heroes, which was, I think, the first part that was a bit intimidating. But I think the thing is, at that age, and I think especially when you're starting a company and at that point in time, obviously too, there was a big cash entry into getting into digital production and the kind of things we were doing at that point. So we had a couple million dollars in debt as far as what we were doing with the new digital facility and our edit suites and graphic suites, et cetera. So when. When you're getting to that point of working with somebody like that and then knowing that, hey, this is not only going to be a amazing creative opportunity, but we're going to be able to really push the company forward financially and as a business, we could be hiring more people. It definitely changed so many different things in our process. So I think we did recognize that early on that this is a lot. We don't know exactly what we're doing, but if we say yes and we get the other kind of partners we need and be really scrappy, we can figure all this stuff out. So even things that were way out of our pay grade, like we knew how to figure it out, like we were that scrappy and guerrilla about it.
- [10:25]
A
You said you got intern's work ethic, and that's thanks to Prince. How much of that inspiration and how much of that energy was in the room that it inspired you when you started working with him?
- [10:36]
B
Yeah, it's a great question because I think I always tell people, because they always ask, what is it like? Working with him is the one really unique thing is you just know when he's in the building. So in our space, like even if it wasn't announced that he was going to be working with us that afternoon, you just knew when he was in the building. There's just that presence about it and that energy about it. And then when you did know he's going to be there, it just makes you stand at attention and really dive in. And I think the, besides the work ethic part of it, and I'm sure from working with a lot of other artists too, is there's no timeline. Like even in a 24 hour day, it's not a. We're not talking about 24 hours and we're not talking about a Tuesday or Wednesday. That is so fluid in his world. That's why engineers are working at 2 in the morning on a Thursday or at 1 in the morning on a Sunday. Is that whenever that kind of happened for him, that's when things were going to be created or be. There's a little bit of that. You feel like you're on call all the time. But the energy of that is really unique and I think it got us really good at iterating quickly and doing stuff at a pace that we had never done before. So I learned a lot in that part of it. And then also just the presence of bringing in more collaborators because to work that quickly too, it's not just you have to get a really robust team of people pushing on all this stuff at the same time. So we built a really close team out of it as well. When I described that moment of when he, when we first met him and when he came to our company is that again, it's a Sunday morning at 9 o' clock and he literally looks like he's ready to jump on a concert stage. So like he was always prepared, always ready. Like he wasn't showing up in sweats. It just that if anybody's just amazing at brand identity and his personal brand, it was him. And I think that was our entire experience from the first day we worked with him till the end, is that he was just always, he was always prepared, he was always put together. And I think, I'm sure a lot of your mentees are the same way as they're always asking, what can I do different? It's like when you show up, make sure you show up and have it together and come presenting yourself in a really strong way because that first impression is so key. And that was definitely him.
- [12:51]
A
I mean, you're right about a personal brand because personally I don't listen to music of his. I was never really a fan. Obviously I can have a wiggle to Purple Rain when it's on radio or whatever. But I love that element of personal brand because it's these little things that I know of him and about him. What I've seen, what I've heard, what I've read, what made the impact on me. Because I think, how do you create your identity so daring in a way that anyone knows who you are and that's your legacy? Because whatever he's recorded, whatever he's done, and he's done some amazing stuff, to me, first and foremost is that sort of visual experience, that sort of presence, that visual philosophy, like this is what I stand for. Because as you said, he looked like he was ready to go on stage at 9 o' clock in the morning. There was another day off.
- [13:38]
B
When we were doing this work, obviously we didn't have an idea of really what the symbol meant. We really thought it was going to be part of what we're doing for the album cover itself and for some of the base elements of what we do, for all the promotion, et cetera. But none of us thought it was going to be this bigger picture thing of what he was trying to do with his music and wanting to put out more music and also wanting to get out of his contract. There's so many things behind it. So there's obviously, now that you look at it from this point of view, there was obviously a lot of things in his head and a lot of planning he was doing that we just didn't know about. But again, when you think about that's pretty that like his marketing mind and just how much he thought ahead in so many different parts of his journey is incredible.
- [14:26]
A
Before we leave Print in peace, we've got one last question about the work. As you talk about iteration and sometimes we look at back our past work, I'm sure sometimes you look at the symbol and go, yeah, we had a different version of that which worked better or because that's a piece of work that's either following you or haunting you, thinking there was a version that was better. So, because it still very much exists in the present, when you see it, is it happy memories?
- [14:54]
B
Well, it's actually both. So I'm glad you asked. Cause I think the happy memories are just to see something that so symbolizes what he's all about. Inclusion and acceptance and all the. All these things and actually love in general. That was kind of who he was. So to see that it has that kind of legacy and also that it has that visual presence that when he first passed, a lot of people were asking like, what's that going to mean? And a lot of people brought up as the peace symbol itself and a lot of very other iconic symbols that we're going to remember for years to come. And a lot of people felt like that's the way that symbol had an impact on people, especially fans of his music. I think on the other side of it, the stuff that haunts us is that we did refine that logo a lot. But I think that's what's interesting when you look at it, because there's a lot of unrefined parts of it and I think that's really purposeful. It was supposed to feel more human. It was supposed to feel more hand touched. So most of my graphic design friends would say, well, couldn't you clean that, clean up those curves and make everything nice and tight? And that really wasn't the purpose. And I think that's what's so, so great about it. But also the kind of things, as a graphic designer, you want to, you want to refine that. But I think it was, there's a reason for that and it was more of a connection to that human quality.
- [16:12]
A
When you were talking about a work at a time when your company had 2 million in debt and you had to grow and scale and grow sideways and up, that is a lot of risk taking. That is a lot of growing up really quickly. And you say that risk taking is like a part of your everyday work. How do you metabolize it? I mean, sometimes we see risks in different ways, but when you think of something as a risk, or when you think something as daring, or when you push yourself, that takes it out of you. So how would you describe a risk in your everyday work?
- [16:47]
B
That's interesting because I think if you get this a lot as well, but a lot of people ask me about the risk, but I don't feel like it's that risky. It's the way I've always approached things. And I think both in my work and just in, like when you're talking, I know you're a surfer. So for myself being a backcountry snowboarder and doing heli boarding and things like that, people just feel like that's like, why would you want to take that risk? But I think just like in my work, like, that's when I feel most alive, like when I have that opportunity to do something that's a little more out of the ordinary or also has that risk component in it. That's when you do feel the most alive, the most excited about what you're doing. So I think the great thing is that's how I feel. My creative life has been built. I think of it as. Every time I get that opportunity to say yes to something, to take a chance, it really. That's the kind of thing that keeps me going. And I'm just not a risk adverse person whatsoever. And it maybe even starts from like some of my military training when I was in college. Is that when you get into that situation, I think you're very conscious of the risks, but. And you always put the safety measures in place, but. And you're very calculated about it. But the risk part of it doesn't. It doesn't affect you in the same way. And I think so. In my work, I'm always looking at, yeah, what. There's always the things that we need to do that make the sell. But there's a lot of things that allow me just to kind of push out into those areas where risk doesn't feel like risk to me.
- [18:18]
A
This is perfect, Mitch, because I've had some, I would say some daring people on this show. I had some people, in a way daring that they are going after that thing they don't want to regret not doing. They've got their goals, they've got their values, they've got their visions, they've got places they want to reach. And to the outside it will be like, hey, that's pretty risky. And they'd be like, actually, you know, well, I'm pretty risk adverse. I'm like, I am not that daring person. I look on the outside because to get to the certain point you go step by step. I mean, you don't jump from being regional graphic designer to be making stage design for prints. That happens gradually. But you said, yeah, I'm not risk adverse at all. You're the first person to say, I love risk. This is what I do. Like, this is how I push myself. Coupled with the work ethic that's been inspired by artists formerly known as Prince. It's interesting because we all have different views on what risk means to us, what fear means to us. And I kind of been sort of prodding that topic for the last few months and weeks. That when you feel and people tell you like, I'm really. I've got this anxiety, I've got fear of this and fear of that. When you open yourself up to a conversation with people and you are vulnerable and you say, hey, this is how I feel. You often find yourself to be one of the most bravest people in the room because people go through completely different stuff. And you find that validation when you tell people, well, how is it for you? How is it for us? Because someone needs to take a risk. Someone needs to do this, that thing you don't feel like doing. And I think in your work that's been provided with such an illustrious career, it perfectly matches. Because you talk about backcountry snowboarding, that's not for the faint hearted, but it's all. But it's also for the ones who are scared because you're gonna do something that in my case would have been, as I keep explaining, daring you as a concept. Like daring is that I'm not gonna regret not taking that action.
- [20:14]
B
I think that's such a beautiful description because that's exactly how I see it. And I think that's why I related when I first saw the title to your book, because I think it's not that I always tell people, especially when I'm speaking to students and stuff too, about getting through that fear. Part of it is that any of that risk, it doesn't mean I'm not scared. It doesn't mean I think you got you. And PJ talked about it beautifully in your podcast with him about that anxiety. Part of it is as designers, as creatives, everything else you have that anxiety, you have that stuff that gets you all wound up. But I think over the years, I think not doing that is what I would regret the most. And I think there's this really beautiful article I read almost 25 years ago that literally changed my life in fast company. And it was about this interviewer that he had done like a thousand interviews with senior citizens who'd retired and had really successful careers. And I look back at that article all the time. I give it to so many people on a regular basis because what it said is the biggest regrets were just leaving that music inside of you and not taking the risks in creativity and in relationships and not looking back regularly and not reflecting at different times of your life so you can kind of assess where things are and where you want to go. And I think that helped me so much at that time and it made me take a lot more risks. Just like I don't want to be that person. And what's really funny is in that article, it says I don't want to be at 60 years old regretting that. And like I said, I just reached that point and I just don't feel like I have a lot of regrets and I think that's a great place to be.
- [21:53]
A
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. I'm very happy for you saying that. Absolutely. As you were saying this and as an article for sure, we need to look up, but I remember having a personal experience where I saw four words written on a handbag in a really sort of fancy boutique in Chelsea in London. And that was after I launched my last two books. Came back from the launch in Toronto. I was tired. I wasn't sure where I was heading, what was going on. I was kind of having time off from all of it for a day with my boy. And those four words said, no risk, no story.
- [23:17]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [23:18]
A
And I'm like, you know what? For the first time I was two years younger, but the first time I was 40, 45. And for the first time I was like, oh, that's what I'm doing. Because I'm looking back, I had my sort of the moment that you describe it, like, I was looking back, I'm like, some of my decisions are almost made from deathbed. Like, I want to be in the room and say, you know what? I burned my fingers. I've tasted the wrong stuff. I've done silly things, I said the wrong things, but I did them on a journey to go somewhere. So the element of, like, risk taking, like, no risk, no story is like, that story is not going to write itself when you sit at home in your pajamas hoping for the best.
- [23:58]
B
And it's funny because years later, I'm guessing probably about 10 years after I read that article, I was working with a friend of mine, Lauren Campbell, in Denver, and she had given me this really amazing statement. And it was like, the universe rewards risk. And I wrote that down at that time. And I still think of that at every kind of decision point in my life. And I just love that statement because it's so true. And I think everybody gets so wound up about all the possibilities and all the things that could or might happen because of taking that risk that you're talking about. But I think you've done it enough. Then all of a sudden it's one of those things that. How important it is. And I think the biggest thing that I guess you and I can do is make sure people feel like, hey, that's if you do it once and you start making a practice of it, it's going to change your life.
- [24:47]
A
Absolutely. I mean, when you think about the risk itself, sometimes risk doesn't feel like risk because you're in the middle of a situation and you're like, you have to make a decision left or right. Because I want to take it through sort of short segue to actually that backcountry snowboarding, because that's not signposted holiday resort, is it? It's a totally different story. Because seriously, you jump enough helicopters to go snowboarding. How does that influence your decision making? How does the sport influence how you work? Because you're not going slow, you're not exactly going on a signposted route, exactly doing in the safest place, which kind of goes hand in hand. So what you describe about your work. So tell us about backcountry snowboarding.
- [25:30]
B
I appreciate you asking. Well, the interesting thing about it is, and I wrote on something on this particular topic a few months back, and it was just like an athlete's perspective on the creative industry. I think it relates to what you're talking about here, and that is you're taking these risks. You're going in helicopters in. In very remote places where there could be incidents. But the thing is, you're so prepared, you're so dialed in, you're very focused, and you've kind of calculated a lot of the risk as. As much as you can, but then it's. Then it's kind of time to go. And I think that's very much how we prepare for projects, how we look at creative things and how much we prepare and how much we research before we actually do the thing. And so that's the whole process of what I love about the snowboarding experience. And even being the helicopter. Like, if they just brought me up there and then brought me down again, that part of it itself is just so thrilling because you're in a place that's probably the most quiet and remote part of the world. And being dropped off there, it's just. It's hard to describe the sense of how clear your mind is and how focused your mind is, but it also really clears everything else out and probably the best way I could describe it is when I first did it. I was working here in New York, did the trip, came back. And I think when I came back from that trip, it literally felt like my first day in the office, like I had never worked there before. And that's how clear everything felt because all the bad stuff had been pushed out. And then it was all ready for this new stuff. And I think after that experience, that was the first time I went to Alaska. Is that gave me the motivation. I was like, I have to do this every year. And not that I. It always has to be a backcountry experience. There's a lot of other riding I'm doing, but there's always has to be some of those bigger adventures in places. The Arctic Circle, where we went this past year in Sweden or in Iceland, where it's a different form of an experience, but it's the kind of thing that just again, kind of to that alive feeling that we were talking about earlier is that's when you feel the most alive, taking that kind of risk, but also knowing you've really prepared at the same time.
- [27:39]
A
So as you're describing all of this, I'm thinking of one word, and that's silence. Because obviously it's quite windy up top. But it was reminding me also of a music video for track called Great Blondino by Stacker Boat. And it's a kind of a silly, dark Doug humor comedy video of like, really famous sort of skier who sort of wakes up with a mistress or whatever, takes a Volvo up the mountaintop, does. Has got like a sort of speed helmet that time trial cyclists have. But what it. What the reason why it reminded me of it is because the video and the music stops in the middle and it's just his breath for a few seconds. You got a bit of a wind and it's like 1997 or 96. Let's send you a link to this. But it's like you are at one with yourself. You're at one with the nature, with the snow. And it's like when you think about it, that's also in my way, this transcendent way of creativity, because you can buy into the noise, you can buy into everything that's around you, or you can actually be there getting ready for that run, going, this is about me. I'm accountable for my moves and how I do it. So would you say silence is part of this?
- [28:58]
B
Yeah, it's a perfect description. And I think it also that that point of the noise that you're talking about is I think that's my reset, right? Is that silence being somewhere. Maybe nobody's ever even been on that part of the mountain or has been down that part of that face. And that there's just something about that brings you so close to nature, but is also such a mental reset that I think that's why I experienced what I told you that first Alaska trip. And I think that's one of those things. I haven't really found anything else that does that big of a mental flush of the entire system. And I think it's really hard for us to find that because. And I know a lot of people go on vacation just to totally relax and just read and be on a beach and all those kind of things. And that's on one scale and my scale is on the other side for sure. Like that active engagement and exploration has just been the thing that really helps me reset and really just get completely refueled to do new work. That's where I get all my energy just to dive back in.
- [30:03]
A
It's been well documented that people in your position and high power CEOs and that kind of stuff, they can't lie by the beach with a book. The 45 degree heat. No, because there is something like with the dead, there is a. A lot going on on a daily basis. And that, as you said, that doesn't get fleshed out by just the new Matt Haig novel or something. It's just. It's a hard reset. And that makes such a good sense.
- [30:30]
B
The other thing about it that is interesting, I. It kind of reminds me a little bit of Paradiso too because I. Our experience there when we connected is that just get a. When all of a sudden you get this whole new group of people that are just really high profile, high performers, successful kind of people. That just doesn't happen that often where you get a group of people together like that. And I think that's the other thing about doing these kind of trips is like the type of people that do that kind of backcountry work is that they're all very physically fit, they're very mentally fit. Usually they're pretty successful in whatever business they've done. They're also very social and they want to connect. So it's interesting because besides all of the benefits that I was talking about, it's a lot of business relationships out of those particular experiences too. And just people that I've been connected to that they just. They're kind of your people. They think and feel the Same way. So there's definitely other things besides just the, the reset part of it that I really love.
- [31:30]
A
It makes perfect sense, absolutely perfect sense. Because you personally, you bring people together yourself because you work with assembly, let's say you've got a program of assembly, you also have got a mentorship program which works with unrepresented creatives, puts them together with the top industry players. But you mentioned bringing people together and I think we're going through this amazing sort of 360 where we had real communities. I mean, I wasn't in them because I was too young before I was properly a designer. And there was some of it a decade or so ago or two decades ago, but then we all sort of started hanging out online and thinking we've got this online community, then be all disheartened about it and they're like, yeah, we need to go back and see people in real life. We need to go back and see them in person. Because magic happens. That cognitive cross pollination, like those ideas spreading and just having that reassurance that the person that might be typing the answered mode behind LinkedIn message is okay, I get seen. But yeah, putting people together, I mean, must be a rewarding feeling for you to actually be helping your industry, especially people on your side of the pond, be seen, be heard, reassured and give them what I call a sabbatical from their life. At least few hours.
- [32:47]
B
Well, I know you're really great at that. Is, it's just being present wherever you can to have those experiences and to really put yourself out there to make a point of doing it. And it's interesting, I had this thing come up the other day where a young professional had asked me about, hey, I really want to, I really want to do this thing. But the thing is it's kind of expensive. My company won't do it for me. And I just heard those words and I just said, just stop a second. What's the purpose of this? What is the purpose of the thing and why do you want to go? And they told me very passionately what that was. And the only thing I said, don't you want to invest in yourself? Isn't that the most important thing? And I really didn't have to have much more of a conversation there. It's like, yeah, I just need to do this, I'm going to pay for it, I'm going to take that time off, I'm going to go and I'm just going to make it happen. And that was a younger me, like that was, I Didn't wait for permission. I think you and PJ were talking about that too in your podcast about permission. It was like you just weren't asking for permission. It was like, I'm just going to go, this is important, this is invested in myself. And I think that's that community sensibility of you need to put yourself out there and you need to find ways to do it, even if there are other barriers to taking that time or making that trip. But my friend Joel Pilger always talks about experts travel. And I think that's the other part of it is like the more you're out there and the more you're seeing more people you're connecting with, it only brings goodness. Like it's both in your personal relationships, but I think also personal, professionally in what we do. That's how it all happens. And I think our goal with something like assembly is just to make that a very low barrier of entry. Like we just, we make that happen with sponsoring studios so that we can just include a lot of people in that experience and get them connected. And I think we just need that more than ever now.
- [34:37]
A
There's so much value in this, like investing in yourself. It can feel scary. You can feel like, am I ever ready to do this? But when people have time sort of to overthink this, they get to see too many sides of what that potential risk could be or what might be hiding behind going for the reward. Because I think there's a beautiful naivety. And you, as we call it, fellow self taught graphic designer, you were not waiting to be ready. It's like, I'm going to do this, I'm going to start. And I think that sort of philosophy for life, I think it is for life. Because there's a beauty in not knowing. It hurts not knowing. Sometimes you make all the mistakes. But it's that idea. Like I can't wait. Mostly I shouldn't wait for someone to say, you can do this. Because I've read someone on LinkedIn and I'm like, LinkedIn is myself of self harm. And it's a sort of inappropriate joke because I read quite a few posts and I'm going, why this? Why that? And I think this post was saying like, or artists don't need inspiration, they just need permission to create, they just need this. And I'm like, off. Like they don't need permission to create. Like they actually need inspiration. They need to be shown that whatever they want to do does work to inspire someone is to show them, hey, I've got On this path I've got maybe 15 miles, you can go 17, you can do this, you can follow my lead, you can go with this. Because there are overlapping themes of creative athletes. They're like, if you see your career as something which is so wholesome and layered and intricate because that's what creative careers are, then you realize that there's a sort of movement to what you do and therefore waiting for one path to be unlocked or have somebody else to unlock it for you, you'll never get there because that athlete itself will stand at that starting line for themselves because they want to get to the other side as fast as possible.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah. One actually what I love what you're talking about is, is I think on that permission side of things is that being, being self taught or just not having so much formal education, it also means you're asking a lot more questions. And I'm always that person. I'm not the person who's going to ask for directions to get somewhere or to get a recommendation. Something like there's just, there's no embarrassment in that, I guess or fear of I'm going to be an idiot is like I always want to be that person in the room. And I think even now when I think of the people that I work with is I'm not the smartest person in the room. And that's exactly where I want to be. I want to be around people that are challenging me. And then I feel that I can ask those questions because. Because I think like it's easier for me to break the rules because of it because I don't know the rules. And I think that I, I thought for sure for years that was a huge hindrance and that was going to hold me back. And I realized that was actually superpowers I didn't have to be. It's probably why the David Carsons of the world were big inspirations for me because I didn't know much about grids. I didn't really understand how all that work unless I was reinterpreting. I saw something from another fine artist or designer. But I think that's, that's been kind of a blessing going forward because I feel maybe to. Your risk question too is it's also why it doesn't feel as risky to me because I want to learn that stuff. I, I want to think like a student all the time and that's just your way of living.
- [37:59]
A
The list of your influences, when I see them now it all makes sense. David Johnson, Zaha Hadid, Neville Brody and Tristan Eaton, like, they're all known for doing whatever hell they wanted to do. I like that your influences are messy, opinionated, and you say they're breaking the rules. Because when you talk about rules, it's, I am where I'm going, wherever I want to go. Like you're verbalizing, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you even studied the rules. You just sort of went whatever you wanted to do. And you did have things made you feel something inside, following your expression, having a look through your work, and especially so some of your recent work with the Olympics in Tokyo and Paris. That's a tricky word to get right because you're trying to please a lot of people, even though you don't want to please a lot of people. But you really sourced and we talking about rules and talking about risks. When you're telling the truth, you can tell the truth in any way you want. You can make it impressive, engaging, because the way that you've done it for both of those programs. And I need to say what you did, you actually did the broadcast identity for the American channels doing the broadcast. Not necessarily. Not the main Olympics logos, but I like what you guys did with both of the events where you really looked at the local symbolism, the local ideas, the philosophies, and created these engaging entities that I believe won Emmys. Is that right?
- [39:35]
B
Yeah, actually, really fortunate for clients at NBC. They won for not just the brand design of what we did for Paris, but I think like 10 other awards at the Emmys this year. So they did really well. I think it's just in the Olympics in general, it kind of a rebirth for them as far as what the Olympic broadcasts now mean in the States. And I think, as you know, it's coming to LA in 28. So I think that's the other thing is there's just so much momentum behind it now. But it's great to see them get recognition because it's a monumental task getting through something like especially the Summer Games.
- [40:11]
A
Whose idea was it to get Snoop Dogg involved?
- [40:13]
B
I wish I knew that question. But it's another thing being such a fan and then just seeing him wear the NBC logo or wear the Paris logo. In ways, it's just. It didn't get better for me than him sitting next to Martha Stewart. That probably was probably one of my favorite parts of the entire event. But it's. Or Beyonce being part of it. Like those are. Again, it goes back to the Prince thing is you don't know where your things are going to go and just to see it in. In the presence of all that type of thing is just crazy.
- [40:45]
A
So the young Mitch, who's discovering graphic design and teaching himself how to press buttons, did you ever imagine what could happen when you follow your journey because your career is, I mean, full of amazing stories, amazing designs, amazing collaborations, achievements. Did you ever feel that you could do some of this? How does the young Mitch see the image now and go, hey, yeah.
- [41:11]
B
Well, I think it's interesting because the young Mitch was again, coming from something like naval ROTC and all this. A lot of really formality and predictability in what I was doing to getting into this creative career is two very different things. So I think at that point in time, I was just really inspired by my siblings. My siblings were both very artistic. So I think I saw in them that there was this potential to do something different because you can't really describe an artistic career to your parents or really anybody of what that's going to be. But I think because I had such great support from my parents, they even invested in my first company to get us off the ground. And obviously if they hadn't, I never would have done the print stuff, et cetera. So I think I just always had a confidence from them that I could do something like this. But the whole idea of not being able to tell how all this connects until you look back on it is, I think, the most magical thing now, because the young Mitch wouldn't have seen any of this. I think I just knew that I had to kind of stay present in the moment. I had a great work ethic and I just knew as long as I could be flexible like you were talking about, I could be flexible and I could roll with things, that I could figure this out. And. And I think the biggest thing. Julia Huffman spoke at off Barcelona. And one thing she brought up, which was very controversial with a lot of friends I was sitting with, is she goes, you have to move. And that's going to be a really hard thing for some people. But I believe that's an essential ingredient in success and especially in this business. And I couldn't agree more. And I've. I, obviously I've thought of it, but I've never heard of that at a conference before. And I was just so. Oh, my God, that's it. That's the other thing is I was never at a point when I was younger where I was concerned about being in this state or being in this industry in a particular location, like, I really wanted to explore. And I definitely get that from My parents, too, of just adventure and exploration. So I've moved a lot in my career, too. So I think the younger Mitch might not have seen all of these changes, but I was definitely malleable in that way.
- [43:18]
A
It's great to hear that your parents were integral part of your artistic journey.
- [43:24]
B
Yeah. Which is more interesting because one was a teacher's aide and another one was a tax accountant for the railroad. So you wouldn't put them in a. In an artistic kind of bubble. But my dad was really into photography and shooting Super 8 of everything. And I think there. There was definitely threads of their creative spirit. And they were very social, and they were very, like, probably the best parties in the neighborhood, for sure. But so they're very expressive, but they just. They didn't have the type of jobs or careers that would fit in your or my circle. But I think it's very satisfying because I think because they invested in my company early on, like, they got to experience that whole thing in a very different way. And I think they were never business owners either. So having kind of a business ownership and seeing what this crazy creative world is was really a great thing to give back to them.
- [44:20]
A
It's amazing because you can actually hear the parallels between what they did. Throwing the best parties on the street. And that's what you do now. You bring people together. That's what you do. And I think that social aspect is invaluable. Absolutely invaluable. I think. I love the fact when you mention the word siblings, you had sort of artistic siblings. I'm like, well, let me make a pun. Was there. Was there a rivalry between your siblings?
- [44:48]
B
Always. Right.
- [44:49]
A
Where did they end up? What did they do? What did your siblings do?
- [44:52]
B
So, actually, my. My sister is a fabric artist, so she's made apparel pretty much her whole career. And my brother is. He works in construction, but also is a fine artist and a painter. So they definitely kept those worlds active in the creative space. And I think it's so interesting how you would, in some cases, child actors follow their acting parents, but in our case, it wasn't that, but there was a thread of. I think it was all the support as well as the. The opportunity of you have to get out and explore that. I mean, it's the same reason I'm getting out of helicopters, for sure.
- [45:29]
A
In your bio and things that you've done, there's so many interesting points because not only you. Pretty much the only person I will ever know who's worked with Prince, you're also the only person who's had military background and been in charge of a nuclear submarine. I mean, that doesn't happen in. How do we add those two together? But you say that through your military background as a leader. Obviously, that expression leaders eat last is very much as being sort of instilled in you throughout the whole of your career. Because leadership, some people strive for it, some people happened to lead because that's where they are in their career. How was leadership for you? Because did you feel like you had, I'm not going to say unfair advantage, but fair advantage, because you've seen things where shit doesn't slide. You're in a situation where you have to make hard choices. I'm not even talking about snowboarding. Like, you can sort of turn left, right, something's going to come up. But obviously in military, it's hard choices. So the leadership and that skill set, how did that aided your career per se?
- [46:34]
B
It's made a huge difference. And I think, and I'm sure you've heard Simon Sinek talk about that particular line too, because it's really his research with the military has informed a lot of what he preaches and what he practices. And I think it's so true because it kind of. It prepares you to be calculated, be prepared, all of those type of things. But I think the leadership part of it, when I was always, even as a partner, and I've been a partner in a couple different companies before coming to sibling, and that's always been about. I've been the HR part of the company in a lot of cases. And that's because I understand all the business components of what we need to do. But I think that the personality side of the business and the emotional side of the business is where the leadership stuff is I think the toughest in a lot of cases. And so you have to get good at it, but you also have to put yourself second. And I think for a lot of leaders and a lot of owners in our industry, it's hard to do that. Everybody feels like it should get easier or I should have less to do or I should have less responsibility. And unfortunately, as a business owner, it's the opposite direction. It always means more of all of those things, and especially with dealing with people, it even gets thicker. So I think I've always leaned into that. I enjoy that part of it. Not everybody does. But as an owner and as a leader, it's essential. And you have to put your people first. You work for them. It's like a very different prospect in a lot of Other owners minds.
- [48:07]
A
There's a solace when I sometimes ask people like, hey, so how did you deal with your new role as a leader and your leadership? And most people say very badly. And sometimes it is really it's a sum of many parts because I like that you use the word empathy that you talked about the fact that you really need to be on the human side of all of this because that's where things really matter.
- [48:29]
B
Yeah. And I think what's interesting because I really appreciated in my early conversations with the two founders at Sibling and why would I be a fit here? What would my role be and what would be different? And we talked so much about that people side of the business and that human side of the business and some of the things that they were trying to get better control of and find a more interesting influence. And I think that really excited me and that's was one of the reasons I was definitely here. But I think when it comes to leadership and team stuff, it's also about kindness. So I think it's finding, finding that layer of kindness and we can't have bad days, which as an owner you understand is that I think that and the kindness factor really are important. And also putting your team first and giving them those accolades and being able to celebrate wins and like all those things that are those more human components to what we do every day as opposed to just getting the work done. It's. I love focusing on that stuff but I think it's kind of part of my role here too to make sure I'm kind of an advocate for that as well. Because as an owner I know you get so busy with all of the other things. There's so many responsibilities that you need to have that other person on your shoulder reminding you of, hey, this is important or this person is important or this moment is important. And I think the difference between working for yourself and working for somebody else, it's been a big change for me. But I love now being more of an intrapreneur than an entrepreneur where I can see the things that the owners see and feel and experience. But being able to help facilitate and do things a bit differently is really a great experience now. And I think it's also why we hire. We actually hire a lot of business owners as well. And I think because they have a different perspective on the experience and how to run teams. And that's what I really like about being on the other side of it. I don't think I'll never be an owner again, but I would never Trade any of that as well.
- [50:29]
A
That's beautifully well said because I'm reading your coolest creative party client list, as you would say. And it's everyone. It's everyone that you can think of, especially in entertainment and tech and everywhere. And you've built visual words for 15 Marvel films and six Olympic Games and counting. When you look back at your career and I hope that answer is yes, did you feel like you had time to focus and enjoy and take it all in? Would you were creative? Because sometimes we just flash through these projects more of a battlefield. You try to just to get your troops in and out of a battle, get it done, hope you do the best and then go, what just happened? Oh, wait, there's another one. Go.
- [51:14]
B
No. I love that you asked that question because it's so critical. And I think it goes back to when I was talking about that article I read on that interviewer is about being reflective. Is that I think from that point forward. And I didn't have a good understanding of that before when I had my company for 10 years, but I think I really had the appreciation of that reflective quality and making sure you're stopping and taking that stuff in and taking in those moments. And it was interesting because I can think of really specific times where I did that too. Of like being at this big shop in LA when I first moved to Hollywood and was working with Ring Circus. And I was actually working for some people that I saw as like mentors of mine and heroes in the industry. And I'm just. I'm there at 1 in the morning, standing in their office, putting the deck on the table or whatever and just standing there going, wow, this is. There's no way this was possible. This wasn't me 10 years ago. And I just, I definitely. I have a lot of those times where I definitely can just pinpoint to the moment of what it was like when I did this or when I was here or I got to meet and experience this artist or be part of the Olympics for the first time or all of those things. I really have strong mental pictures and my friends always joke because I shoot way too many pictures. I document everything, which is something I got from my dad. That part of it helps me remember those points as well. I document all that stuff because which is really important. That's how you get not only those milestones remembered, but it really helps you look forward as well.
- [52:53]
A
You actually reminded me of something from Paradiso. As you said, I take a lot of pictures because before we even got to speak I was sat with Mario Ashkenazi outside the hotel after the first or second day of Paradiso. And you, hey, let me take a picture. And I'm like, hey, wherever you are. And then I looked at those pictures, let's say two or three weeks later, and I was like, oh, that's me and Mario Ashkenazi. I've forgotten about that moment because Arita was this condensed experience of life that just so much happened in so many days, which was like a lifetime in five days. And I'm like, oh, I'm really thankful for this picture because it reminded me of a very happy moment and you were there, so thank you for that. And then it brings it back to, obviously, your death, the load, shooting on Super 8 and doing this. And I just love discovering these dots where they all just join up in a perfect succession, like we are some form of a sort of version of our parents, of our sort of predecessors. Like how one test, shall I say, and how does it all add up? Because we sort of carry that part of those particles of their DNA and we make something new out of this. And it just creates these, well, in your case, incredible careers, which are filled with curiosity and empathy. Something that you can't buy. And it shows. And I really treasure what you do because, yeah, you're making positive impact, you've created amazing work and there's so much more to do that I'm so excited to see what you're going to come up with.
- [54:21]
B
I so appreciate that. Well, it was such a great moment because I was thinking about that today was just when I first met you, was walking out of the hotel and I was like, first of all, I wanted to meet these two people, but I have to get a picture because it was just. It was such a grand moment, you two sitting there. But it's interesting because. And I'm sure you've seen the movie Memento, but I feel like that is the way that I record and remind myself of those things. And I think not everybody does it in the same way, but I think I have other friends that have some similar documentary habits like that. But I think it's really. That does. To your point about embracing the moment, but also celebrating the moment is that I also do that for our teams and for the people I work with. And I know at times, I'm sure he's documented that somewhere. We have it somewhere, but we all look back at that together and it's always that feeling of, wow, we did that together. And this is a point that we have to all connect with. And for me, photos, photography, and even our creative work are all of those things.
- [55:23]
A
It makes me think of silence again. It makes me think of that moment. It's just that snapshot when you actually, when you see it, it's silent, but it reminds you of everything that was there. So, Mitch, thank you very much for making us think about silence and risk and journeys that we could have never imagined. Thank you so much.
- [55:42]
B
Thank you. It was really enjoyable and I think I'm and I'm super excited to to dive into your book too, because again, that title just totally is something I can relate to and I think a lot of people will be able to.
- [55:54]
A
Relate to while it's coming. You'll, you'll read it very soon. So thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding, and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.com and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.