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- [00:02]
Radim Malinj
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provides them with value. So thank you for being here and for helping out. Thank you.
- [00:36]
Liz Mosey
I think the key is to not get sucked into having a victim mentality or a just like a negative mentality about it. Because if you get stuck into thinking, well, this was one of the things that I had to work through in process was it was recognizing that when I got a rejection I would tell all these bad stories to myself in my head that necessarily true. And so the shift that needed to happen was that I just chose to stop doing that. Never completely stop, because this is going to be something that I got to work on the rest of my life. But I made a decision that I am not going to let my brain go down that path telling myself a negative story. And instead I'm going to be like, okay, this didn't feel good, but there's something that I can learn something from this and then turn it into a positive.
- [01:29]
Radim Malinj
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinj. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? My guest today is my second returning guest and there's a right reason for her comeback. In this episode, I'm speaking to Liz Mosey, and amongst many very relatable topics, we connected quite a few dots that have led her to her rejection challenge. It's a public project that transformed how she views failure and positioning in the creative industry. She shares how documenting rejections publicly helped her build confidence and attract opportunities, ultimately becoming her signature approach to making the design industry more approachable and human. Liz discusses the evolution from feeling like an outsider in design to becoming a community builder who helps others navigate creative challenges. Our conversation covers the psychology of rejection, the power of storytelling in personal branding, and the importance of having a clear purpose, goals and and values when making business decisions. It's my pleasure to welcome back Liz Mosey. Hey, Liz, welcome back to the show.
- [03:23]
Liz Mosey
Hey, Radim, thanks for having me.
- [03:26]
Radim Malinj
You're my second returning guest. It's a special privilege. I had to have you back because you and I chat often and most of those conversations are not recorded. So it's time for everyone here what we about? Do you need an introduction? Let's do one. Because people know you. But if someone doesn't know you, who are you? What do you do?
- [03:48]
Liz Mosey
I am a branding designer, so I'm mainly working on branding for small businesses. But then probably similarly to you, I like doing lots of different things. So I have a podcast called building your brand. I do talks, workshops, do some sponsored work with different brands. I think the way I see it is that it all comes under the umbrella of helping small businesses with their branding and marketing. So everything links back to that, but it just looks different in all different ways.
- [04:15]
Radim Malinj
I thought about the fact that I don't really know much about your background. I know what you do now and I know what you stand for. I hear your name being mentioned in rooms where you're not, and you've created an incredible personal brand. But I don't know much about your background. I know you've studied somewhere, you did something. But I've got a habit of asking people questions like, what was the first encounter of creativity? Like, where is the spark of all of it started?
- [04:39]
Liz Mosey
Oh, that's such a good question. Neither of my parents were, like, particularly creative. Well, my dad was like. But not in his career. So he was. He's an amazing painter and he used to love taking photos and stuff like that. But he is actually a zoologist. So not particularly creative. But they always really encouraged my creativity. So whether it was like I'd seen something on TV and I wanted to try and make it, I was like that generation that was like watching Blue Peter. I don't know if you would have seen this, watching Blue Peter. And then, like, I'd see something, I'd be like, I want to make that. And so I feel like ever since I was a kid, I've just been making things. I used to walk around with a sketchbook and I remember the other day. It's funny, isn't it, how you don't necessarily connect the dots together. But like, when I was a kid, I used to design this magazine with my friend and then we'd print it out, like really lo fi and send it out to all the neighbors and there'd be like little competitions that you could Enter in the magazine and everything. I wish I had a copy. I need to try and find one somewhere. But it's funny when you look back and realize that kind of the things that you love now have often always been there, like you just didn't know how to name them or what they were. And I feel like at that point I had no idea what graphic design was, but I actually thought I was going to be a photographer. And I used to spend hours taking black and white photos. I went to a school that had quite a good art department and there was basically a cupboard that the art teacher turned into a. Like a developing room. So I used to spend hours in the cupboard developing my own photos. And they were usually reflections in puddles because there was loads of those in cartoons. I'm thinking these really arty pictures of reflections in puddles. But then I did. I did a foundation course, which is basically like a year where you can try all the different creative disciplines. And one of the things that I've always struggled with is niching down and like picking one specialist area. And so I discovered graphic design. And to me it felt like the discipline where I could bring in lots of different things that I loved, even if I wasn't the person taking the photographs or doing the illustrations. Like, I did get to do some of that, but I was the person who was bringing it all together at the end. And so I think that's why I fell in love with it as a discipline and then basically, yeah, studied it for degree and then have been working as a designer ever since, which I think is really rare. I feel like I have had quite a sort of linear career path on paper, in my head, not so much like it's gone all over the place, but in paper it's. I worked in an agency, I worked in house, then I worked for myself. Obviously it's not that simple and it isn't that linear. But a lot of my friends who studied with me aren't working in graphic design anymore. So I guess that's a bit more unusual to have stayed in the same kind of. Yeah, like, career path.
- [07:33]
Radim Malinj
Yeah, it's a nearly straight line and it's a good line because you're making the volume of your knowledge obviously broader and broader ever since. But I know graphic designers who are now in insurance or in music industry. There's a lot of people that have totally left the industry and started something completely different. I know I used to admire this illustrator 20 years ago and he went to become a hairdresser. I was like you are really good. Can you just make stuff so I can copy you?
- [08:04]
Liz Mosey
I think what I've realized is that just because you're good at something, if you don't enjoy the process of the business, like that's not enough, is it? Just being good at something.
- [08:16]
Radim Malinj
None of my guests ever mentioned Blue Peter. That is a spectacular one. Because for those who don't know how would you describe Blue Peter?
- [08:23]
Liz Mosey
It's. I mean, it wasn't just Blue Peter. There was a few programs. There's like one called Art Attack as well that was basically just like kids programming on the BBC where they had these sort of like daily or weekly shows. But there was always like a creative segment in it where they showed you how to make something. So it was like a tutorial. So it was like, go and get this toilet roll and, and get this and that and then you can make this thing too. And I just used to love following along with those and I was just always making things. And I think my, like, I do, I am really grateful to my parents because they were totally up for if I was like, I want to make this massive paper mache thing. They were like, okay, let's do it. Let's make this happen. And they would help me get what I needed to do it. And I'm not sure like all parents would. It was a bit of a faff and it's quite a lot of work and it makes a lot of mess. So I'm not sure all parents would be up for that. So I think I'm. I am very grateful that they allowed me to explore and play so young. And then like you said, the foundation course. The foundation course. I wish everybody, even if that you don't go into the creative industry. I wish everybody got to do it because it's basically a year where you get to play like with no pressure because yeah, you had to do a final project but it wasn't your degree. So it was not like you were stressing about whether you got like a first or a two one or whatever. And so to be able to have a whole year of playing creatively with the sole purpose of working out like what you want to do, like that is just unheard of really. It's such an amazing idea.
- [09:59]
Radim Malinj
Hats off to your parents because we both are parents and we both know that not for 15 minute of kids fun, you've got four hours of tidy up. It's literally, it's at least three or four hours of tidy up. But I love that you were encouraged to do things And I've been reading a book about David lynch and his parents were exactly the same. They were like, they wouldn't let him to have coloring books just to date and stifle his creativity. They were like, you're not going to be coloring within the lines. You just draw your own lines. You do your own thing. And I think as a parent, it just, it makes you slightly dissonant. No. Or conflicted. I want you to have as much fun as possible. But oh my God, I've hooven five times today already. Can we do this? But I want to talk about your dad for now, because you said he was a painter. Not as a profession, because he was a zoologist, but he was a painter. What did you get to see him do? Paint, create, influence you.
- [10:48]
Liz Mosey
When we were kids, he actually did a sabbatical. His work offered a sabbatical. And we went and lived in Spain for a year. So it was basically a year where he could almost go. And it was almost like a foundation course for him. It was like a year where he could go and explore something related to his career. So his specialist area was birds. So he was obsessed with birds, like watching them catch. He used to catch them in our garden and ring them, you know, all sorts. So we went to Spain because he wanted to work on this sort of, I guess, research project over there. And so I went to school there and it was a really amazing year. But that where we lived, it was a place called Segovia, which is like a town maybe like about an hour from Madrid. And it's got this massive aqueduct and it had this incredible castle. And my dad just did the most amazing painting of this castle. That's the most sort of defining thing that I remember seeing him paint. And like, the light was amazing. And what was so nice is that he put it up in the house when we got back. And it was just this really nice memento and like memory of this very defined year that we had in our childhood. So, yeah, stuff like that. But he'd often sit and draw with me or like, he didn't get to do it that often, but he just really enjoyed it and was really good at it. But the same with photography as well. Like, he really combines his love of photography and his love of nature and animals. So he's always got these, like, big lenses. He's off, like, photographing some interesting flower or some interesting, like, birds that he's just. And like, still to this day. We went on holiday a couple of weeks ago and we went to this nature reserve and we all had to wait for hours while my dad sat there taking photos. So, yeah, it's good.
- [12:32]
Radim Malinj
I think you had a direct influence on what you. What you did next because you were taking pictures of reflections and puddles in black and white. Can you make Cardiff even gloomier? Yes, I can do that. Yeah. It's puddles, it's rain and this reflection. You know what, let's make it black and white. Yeah. I don't want to talk ill of Cardiff, but it's nice to sort of find that link because as I said at the top of this conversation, like, you and I talk a lot about various things, but I never knew any of these things about you. That's really interesting.
- [13:00]
Liz Mosey
Yeah. Those things I don't think I've ever shared anywhere, to be honest.
- [13:03]
Radim Malinj
You would like to think that you can influence your kids by being something you want them to be, but it's your actions. If you want them to be a content pianist, unless you play piano in a house, they really need to want it on their own so much. But if you show them the breadcrumbs, if you show them the way, if you almost liberate even more liberated creativity and create those open conditions that they can feel so easy and creating, they can feel so easy and expressing, I actually let them allow to have almost every emotion that makes them more wholesome, creative, human people, whatever you want to label them for the future. But it's nice to know that's how the influence was for you, because I think if you get to learn from the young age that no is mainly the answer. You're like, oh, really, what can I do? Because why do kids misbehave? Because they want to make their own choices. They want to have at least some decision, some autonomy about their little lives. And if they don't, they will show you that there needs to be some decisions made by them. The reason I ask you all these questions about your childhood, because the way you put the trajectory of your career, you've given yourself permission to do lots of interesting things, just that you've got agency side. Then you started on your own and I think you told me that you wish you had started sooner your creative business, because sometimes it feels like you might be feeling, or am I behind? Or am I as you can see, people who've already been doing it for a lot longer, and you've started your podcast and for one of your experiences of getting guests on your show, you've started something which has become almost your sort of well known manifesto in this industry because your name gets mentioned in the rooms you're not in and people are nodding. So last time I heard your name mentioned in the room was Adobe Community Breakfast Meetup. And Cloudy said, oh, there's someone called Liz Mosey. And she started this rejection challenge and people were like, oh, wow. Yeah, this seems really interesting. This is really clever. And it's become what I call singular. Like, we all go for rejection, but you've decided to make it a public facing expression of your work and build a personal brand around it. So for those who may not have heard of your rejection experience that sort of kickstarted all of this. Let's start connecting the dots there.
- [15:25]
Liz Mosey
It's interesting. Can I tell a little side story before I tell you about the rejection? So last week I gave a talk and it wasn't about the rejection thing, but it was about my experience as a designer. And I tried to make it really relatable. And someone came up to me afterwards and they said that they find the design industry really intimidating and that I came across really down to earth and that they really, like, appreciated that it felt relatable to them.
- [15:51]
Radim Malinj
Them.
- [15:51]
Liz Mosey
And I think that lit a light bulb for me because I was like, actually, if I think about it, all of the things that I share online come under this sort of like, desire to make the design industry, I guess, like more approachable, more community focused, like less what it was when I was younger. I think the reason that I didn't start sooner with my own business is I just never felt like I belonged in the design industry. I never felt like I was a part of it. And I almost lent too much into that. And because I didn't feel part of it, I took myself out of it and I just plodded along doing my thing. But I wasn't part of the community. And it's only in the last five or six years that I've really thrown myself into the community, which has had a hugely positive impact. But I feel like the rejection challenge falls under the same thing where, like, I experienced a rejection, processed how I felt about the rejection, and then realized, like, this is something that every single person's going through. But not many people talk about it because obviously we want to, like, present like our best, most professional, most successful selves. And so I guess I figured maybe I can be the person who. Not the only person, but a person who reminds people. But actually this is just a normal part of the creative process because I think if you expect something that's hard, it's a Lot easier to deal with it, like, knowing that it's going to happen because you're like, oh, actually, I don't need to worry about this. This is just part of the creative process. It's the same when, when I'm designing branding. I don't know if this happens to you, Radim, but there's loads of memes about it online. But basically there's always a part where I'm like, this is horrible. Like, I call it like the dark night of the soul. And it's almost like part of the process I have to go through. And when it happens now, I know that means I've nearly got there. Like, I'm nearly there because I'm like, oh, this is. This is feeling hard. Oh, but that means that I've nearly found the sort of solution and now it doesn't freak me out because I know that it's part of the process and actually it means that I'm close. When I was, like a young designer, it would send me off into an existential crisis. Am I good enough? Am I. Is this terrible? Like, I'd really doubt my. And I just think that with all of these sort of hard things that you have to go through as a creative, it's not about removing the friction and it's not about taking away the hard thing. It's about sort of processing and dealing with the hard thing, like, in a healthier, better way. And so I. Yeah, so I think the reason that I wanted to share about the rejection challenge publicly was that then people can look and be like, oh, this is getting rejected, so it's okay if I get rejected. So that. I think that's a lot of this I've pieced together after the fact. I didn't think about all that when I started it, but now I'm realizing how it fits into the bigger picture of what I want to do with my career and how I want to share things.
- [18:55]
Radim Malinj
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order with the branding process. When you say sometimes it feels really hard. And now it's getting better. I feel there are certain phases of our lives where it just makes more sense when you get more experience of this, you tackle the problem faster and with different perspective. Different view because, oh, my God. I mean, I. I can tell you zillions of experiences when I just wanted to give up, but I found that in that mix of people where I was in, I didn't speak enough for myself. I could have done more. I could have owned the process. I could have actually looked after the next step. Because when you're younger, you expect a lot of things to go well. It was like, I'm finally in charge of my life, I'm in charge of my career, my creativity. I'm gonna do this and I'm bringing this to the world and hopefully it will work. You don't even think that it's not gonna work. And then it doesn't because you realize, oh, I'm following people's orders, I'm following people's opinions. I'm here. I don't wanna speak out too much in case they think that I say something stupid. But because you haven't spoken and you're waiting on somebody else to get it right, often things go wrong. And I found myself once. And I don't want to talk too much about my experiences because it's not here for you, but I was once commissioned by an agency to do a branding for your Nations League for. Basically for UEFA. I had two weeks, I had to do two routes. The creative director was not on my side. He found hole with everything. And I was like, this is a disaster. I didn't feel like I had his help. But when I reflected on this, I was like, I should have been looking after this. I don't care, like, how well or how badly someone does it. I need to look after the narrative. Because when everything's said and done, how well did I do it? Like, how is the accountability? How's my accountability? I can be commissioned because I'm considered to be good enough, but I need to look after the process. I need to do this. Auntie's mean to be in charge. And it kind of led me back thinking. Most of us started creative careers before social media. Before social media, we had websites and people could find us and anything you wanted to get or achieve, you had to go to it. Like, you were not just waiting, saying, this is my beautiful shop window. Amongst 3.2 billion others on Instagram or 4 million on Behance. You had to go and send an email. You had to go and pick up the phone if you wanted something. It was, I believe it was a lot more proactive. And because that was the norm, you were only going to hear back from 1 in 20 people. Like it was just because inboxes were full or other people's inboxes were full. There was fewer people doing this. But I didn't even think about some of this stuff as a rejection because you were lucky to hear from anyone.
- [22:41]
Liz Mosey
I think social media has changed things because like you said, we can share our work in a way that we never had been able to before. I think the mindset shift that I had to have and that a lot of people have said the same to me is this idea that if I show up and share my work, eventually someone will. It's like very not proactive. Eventually someone will notice and the opportunities that I want will come to me. But for example, if you want to be, if you're a designer and you want to speak on a stage, unless you say that to someone, like, no one's going to put those dots together and maybe someone might have seen you on somewhere and thought, oh, that person would actually be a really good speaker. But they're unlikely to go out of their way to try and give you that opportunity. So you need to find a way to say it so that the right person might hear it and give you that first opportunity. And I think it is about being proactive and I think in the past it was about people noticing our work and giving us a platform. And now it's almost we have to make the platform ourselves and try and get in front of the right people.
- [23:53]
Radim Malinj
The beautiful thing about being young is you don't know you're not ready, but you want to do everything. When you read it, you're like, I can't be bothered. And this goes to so many different things. Promoting yourself especially like we talk about pre social, like sending out postcards, booklets, emails, trying to speak to people, giving out stuff like it was almost shameless. It was like, if I don't do this, nothing will come back. The number of times I have asked to speak, number of times I even paid for myself to speak. To go even to the other side of the world is because I wanted to be there, because that's the opportunity. Because not many people can see the behind the scenes. But that may be for me might be misleading. Like how many times have you got a lineup when someone's just holding the event on together by a shoestring but wants to create something for the community wants to give people opportunity to be seen or to share a message. And it could be so misleading thinking people like, oh, speakers should be paid for everything. Or this should be done that way and it should be done that way. It's like when you break it apart on a granular level, it's like the reality is totally different. It's like seeing a headline and not even reading the bylines of the article. So when I see sometimes you posting stuff about, hey, you need go, you need to go and ask, I'm like, what is the other way differences. Everything I feel like from this side, like 99.9 things I've ever got was because I asked.
- [25:25]
Liz Mosey
But I don't think. I think there's a lot of people that don't realize that. So that look at other people's opportunities is that context collapse, isn't it? Because we see, we see other people online and we see a part of the story and we fill in the gaps and we often fill in the gaps incorrectly. So someone might look at what you're doing, Radim, and they might think, oh, Radim speaks loads. People must really know about him. He must be really in demand. They must just come to him and it's all very easy. So they don't necessarily see the bit of the story where you, like, you've paid for yourself to go and speak at events to prove yourself. The work that's gone into that. And so I think that's. We all need that reminder, like, constantly, is that we're only seeing one bit of the story. It's not the full story. And again, I think that's why I wanted to share about the rejection process, because I think I've done it myself. A lot of people look at the opportunities that other people have got and assume that they're just sitting around and those are landing in their lap. And that isn't actually the reality. And I think what you've described is more accurate. Like, actually you have to go and ask for it. And I think it's really encouraging to hear, like, someone like you who's spoken on lots of incredible stages. Like, it's encouraging to me as someone who wants to do that, to be like, okay, Rattam went out there and he asked for it. That means I can do that too. I mean, it's like you almost need to see it to know that you can do it.
- [26:52]
Radim Malinj
I can't now go without a day hearing the word rejection and thinking about you. Like, okay, I'm going to make this note about rejection and this note about rejection.
- [27:00]
Liz Mosey
And this note about rejection, it makes me laugh. That's what people think.
- [27:05]
Radim Malinj
But to be honest, it's singular because there has been obviously a lot other people dealing with rejection and doing public projects on rejection. But this is yours because we almost try to pretend. No, my understanding and the feeling from the industry, we try to pretend rejection doesn't exist. It should be sunshine and ice cream all the time. I've showed up, I'm here, I've got all the tools, I can click all the buttons, I've got my 500,000 followers, but it's not happening. So one of the notes I've made was between conversation between Arthur Brooks and Ridge Roll and they were talking about failure, disappointment, loss. That kind of started sort of shake us up. And Arthur Brooks said when something bad happens, loss, rejection, detachment, write it down and write the initial feeling and then month later write down what you've learned and what was the benefit of that rejection? Because there always is a plus side, isn't it?
- [28:04]
Liz Mosey
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the key is to not get sucked into having a victim mentality or a just like a negative mentality about it. Because if you get stuck into thinking, well, this was one of the things that I had to work through in process was it was recognizing that when I got a rejection, I would tell all these bad stories to myself in my head that weren't necessarily true. And so the shift that needed to happen was that I just chose to stop doing that. Never completely stop, because this is going to be something that I'm going to work on the rest of my life. But I made a decision that I am not going to let my brain go down that path telling myself a negative story. And instead I'm going to be like, okay, this didn't feel good, but there's something that I can learn something from this and then turn it into a positive. And I think it's exactly. I think that's a really great process to do. Write it down. The wisdom of taking a month so that you're like a bit further away from your rejection. You can then compare like what your feeling, intense feeling was in that moment. And then what you're feeling is once you've reflected on it. And what I've noticed for me is that I love like thinking about all of this sort of stuff. So it's probably quicker than maybe other people. But my process, my processing time, like the time it takes me to get over a rejection or get to that good place is so much shorter now. So in the past, maybe it would have taken me a month. Now it might take me a couple of days and then I can see. Oh, okay. I can see the positives here. I can see that this wasn't the right opportunity for me or that actually there's something that I need to work on here. Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to hear the negative. But now I've got some really useful information for how I can be better.
- [29:52]
Radim Malinj
Next time is great to hear. When you talk about like that shorter time, like how do you overcome this actually? How do you metabolize it? How do you get over it? In prep for this conversation, I watched a TED talk by someone I can't pronounce that name by. The talk was called 100 days of rejection.
- [30:10]
Liz Mosey
Yeah, I, yeah, I seen that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:13]
Radim Malinj
And the whole thing fell apart on day three because he wasn't rejected anymore. Like he asked for something ridiculous, which was donuts in Olympic colors. And it opened doors to everything. It was like, oh, it was. I was on the news, I was in blogs, I was in media. It was just like, because someone made me Olympic colored donuts and he made a video about it. I think the rejection and unfeeling of being rejected go so much deeper than just basic surface level. In most cases because we come with so much. In most cases there's so much shame, vulnerability, anxiety, insecurity, like through the childhood, through school system, you know, going through that big sort of washing machine of growing up and adolescence where we are not always told that we're doing everything right. We don't always have the right mentors and people or actually, or even parents around to actually tell us, you know what, it's okay. This is fine. This is part of the process. So we have this sort of, sort of almost legacy traumas. We also take on our parents traumas because some of our parents didn't even know they can actually fix what they've been through. So we carry this burden with us until we realize maybe I don't need to. Maybe there's a way to actually allow myself to appreciate where I am, be actually have immense gratitude for how far we got ourselves to. And appreciate the moment. Because I remember one of your stories from Adobe Max in Miami when you said, I can't believe I'm here. As it happened, I did a therapy session on I can't Believe because through some of the journeys of my life, I found myself achieving a lot of things I never thought would be possible. And I'm standing on the balcony in my new house with beautiful family around me, everything's amazing. And I'm like, I can't believe this is my life. But I was deeply scared that at any moment I can lose it. And you're like, oh, I don't feel right. From a wife. Maybe it's time to see. Do another session, which I do a lot of equine. Well, I said, I do equine therapy as the thing right now. So I went to see a therapist and she took two horses and she said, okay, this is your heart and this is your mind. And why, why do you feel like this? Like, you cannot really say, I can't believe this because that's a negative language. I can't believe this because we really have created after that point of rejection. Up to that point, we've worked really hard on all of this, but do we really allow ourselves to understand or appreciate our achievements? Because you are in Adobe Max Miami for very good reason, because you worked on all of it up until that point.
- [33:00]
Liz Mosey
Yeah, yeah. And that is a really good challenge to hear. I think, like you, I've done therapy and there's still a lot to unpack. And I think that it is messy, isn't it? It really is messy. And it's the title of your talk. What, like Calm Waters. How to find. Yeah. In Creative Storms. Like that really resonates that sort of language. Because it's never. It isn't never. There are periods of calm waters, but there's also the storm, you know, like, you almost need those two things to together to be able to appreciate the calm waters, like you said. So. Yeah. I feel like I've got a lot of things still to process with that. Even last week I got to speak at Adobe Max London and there was still part of me that was like, oh, my goodness. Like, I can't. Yeah, don't say it. But it was more that. I think what it was more that is the recognition that six years ago I'd just come off my second maternity leave, my confidence was at an all time low, and the Liz of six years ago didn't have the capacity to dream this big. And I think for me, what's been interesting is reflecting back on that Liz of six years ago, seeing how far I've come and acknowledging that I could not have dreamed this stuff. Now I can. Now my dreams are like wild and all over the place. But back then, just because of where I was in my life and what I'd just been through and everything, like, I. I didn't have the capacity to dream. So it's. It's less about, I can't believe I'm here. And it's more about Liz of six years ago would have struggled to believe that this is where I would be. And that's actually a really nice sort of reflection to look back on, and there's I to go off on. There's a couple of things I wanted to say based on things that you've said. One of the things I really noticed. So you talked about how that TED Talk you watched, like, after three days, it fell apart because people just said yes to him. And what I noticed is that when I had taken away my fear of rejection, I had. I showed up so much more confidently in a way that I hadn't done before. And that confidence, if you have confidence in yourself, other people have confidence in you. And so then that's when the same as that guy that started happening to me, where other people would start to approach me, I think it's because I showed up in a new way, like, in a new, more confident way that they were like, okay, like, Liz, is that confidence? I don't know. There's something, like, magnetic about that, isn't it? Where it's like, okay, we can see what Liz is doing. She's showing up. We're gonna ask her to do X, Y, Z. And so what I noticed was. And actually what was really funny is that I'd made a list of all the things that I wanted to pitch for, and some of those people came and asked me to do it before I even had an opportunity to pitch for them. So that is one thing. Like, I think by going through a process, like, it helps you to show up with confidence. And then I think the other thing that links back to something else you said. Like, a big process for me has been getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. So I think it's that willingness. I hate the whole push yourself out of the comfort zone messaging, because I think there isn't enough nuance to it. But I think it's that ability to just push yourself that to the next step. Like, it's not like you jump from over here never having done a public talk to, oh, now I'm speaking, like, now I'm doing a TED Talk or whatever. That's not the trajectory, but it's like, okay, what's the next step? That feels a little bit uncomfortable, but I feel confident that I can get there. And I think for me, that has been recognizing that and almost embracing that discomfort has, like, really helped.
- [36:50]
Radim Malinj
So Much to unpack. Love it. Absolutely love it.
- [36:52]
Liz Mosey
It's like a therapy session.
- [36:55]
Radim Malinj
I'll send you the invoice just after, when we finish. So much to talk about fear of rejection. Fear of rejection. Like, when you think about it, it goes to a social exchange. So it's in Oliver Bergman's book Meditation for Mortals, who uses an example in his book who says, if I don't reply to someone's email, I hope that they understand I'm busy. But if someone doesn't reply to my email, I believe they hate me. It's how we hold it within us. And I think this is where we can change that narrative. Because, yeah, you made a note saying false narratives, like, you tell yourself, am I worthy of it? Whereas there's someone on that stage who potentially shouldn't be on that stage, and they believe they're 100% meant to be there, and whatever they're doing potentially for them is the best thing ever. It's like almost having that sort of inner feedback. Am I, Should I? Would I? Because if you focus on going forward, it's a totally different story.
- [37:49]
Liz Mosey
I don't know if you found this, but one of the things that actually really helped me as well was I get a lot of pitches for my podcast. And so thinking about the reasons that I reject people for my podcast actually helped me think quite often. It's that I feel overwhelmed and I can't be bothered to go through the inbox with all the. All of the emails. And, like, if it's one of those things I know I need to do, but I don't really have time to. Or, you know, it's that I just covered the same topic with someone else, or I just don't feel like I personally click with that person. Which doesn't mean that they're not right for someone else's podcast. They just might not be right for mine. And so thinking of all those, like, different reasons just makes you realize, like, it might just be that someone is ignoring their inbox because they feel overwhelmed. It might not be that they hate you, which is obviously. Yeah, I totally relate to that because that's usually my default. Oh, they hate me.
- [38:44]
Radim Malinj
I treat my pitches in my inbox like pre social media inbox, which is, I can't believe you even sent me to this. Can't even spend time and thinking about replying because it's just, people should do better. It's not that difficult to work out how to get it right. And if someone wants to pitch on your show or my show, the only advice is be human, listen to the show, be human and tell me the reason. What is it that you've got to value? Mostly, what is your value that you can share? What is your story? Because lots of people want to show up and talk about themselves, which is lovely if you get the opportunity, but it's not going to get too far. You might be on your friend's podcast, which is great, but if you want to go and be part of a bigger narrative, like, what is your piece of puzzle that you can actually add to this? Because again, that takes us back to your core. It's not, let's call it core messaging. You've become known for this because you've been vocal and relatable. Therefore, people found almost a little bit of solace in your messaging, and that's giving you a platform and a spotlight to actually talk about things that we both wish that were in more. More prevalence and prominence. Twenty years ago, when we really needed to hear this, because industry was different, it was more about, look, we are amazing, we've got amazing clients and this is our work. Whereas we've turned the table onto the fact, like, we are human and we also had to happen to be creative. But the human side of things connects with people so much quicker and so much easier. So my advice would be like, listen to the show and what is it that you want to be about? Because, yeah, you get lots of people, they're like, hey, I want to do more speaking, I want to do more podcasts. I'm like, about what? What is your message? Because there's lots of messages out there and there's lots of. There's even more non messages out there. You don't have to be everywhere.
- [40:33]
Liz Mosey
And this is where it comes back to branding, really, isn't it? Because you mentioned, you mentioned at the beginning about having a personal brand. I think so much of the success of a personal brand is the clarity with which you can communicate that message.
- [40:48]
Radim Malinj
Absolutely. I agree that. And I think personal branding, from the perspective how I see your work, I don't particularly know who you've branded and what you did as a creative, but I know what you stand for and I think that's the more important part. And I feel like we've crossed the bridge between, oh, look, I have to be an amazing creative to be known, loved and cherished and appreciated and accepted. Whereas being verbal about a process, being verbal about what you stand for, what your purpose, what's your values, gets you different seat of the table and gets you to seat at the table much faster. I think the philosophy of creativity and creative process is a lot more transcending now because there's more or nothing on the personal and philosophical level like how we connected and making sense of things around us through storytelling, through conversations. For all of this.
- [41:35]
Liz Mosey
Yeah, I was just gonna say storytelling. I think the power of storytelling, I think we don't acknowledge it, and we're not strategic enough about how we tell the stories, because I interviewed this amazing lady called Hilary Salzman on my podcast. It was all about storytelling. And, like, she. She broke it down. And there's a reason why we remember stories better. Like, it helps us process the world. It helps us process our experience, and there's a formula to those stories. And I think once you can recognize the formula, and often we do it naturally, without even thinking. So, like, with the rejection challenge, I didn't go into it thinking, does this fit the storytelling formula? But it had it already because it was like, here's my problem, here's my adversity, and here's how I'm gonna solve the problem and come out the other side. And like the other day I mentioned before I did this talk last. It's all fresh in my mind, which is why I keep mentioning it. But I did this talk last week, and the reason that it connected with people is not because I said, oh, here's this thing that I designed it because I told the story of the process of designing it, and it was difficult. And there were points, there was, like, problems I had to solve. So I shared again. It was like that storytelling thing of, here's my problem, here's what was really hard about it, and then here's how I solved that problem and everybody. That's how we all process the world, and that's how we connect with things. So if you could. And it's the thing that's crazy about it is there's actually such a simple formula, but once you can see it in everything, then exactly like you said, you can use your words more effectively to connect with people, because you know what's going to help them connect to what you're saying.
- [43:19]
Radim Malinj
That formula reminded me of a conversation I had with an editor from Creative Factor from New York. I called Martin McHugh, and he, in my opinion, is a true storyteller. And he literally spelled out the formula of storytelling in three words. And I'm like, why did I not know that? And he said, it's a character conflict, conclusion sorted. I'm like, oh, could you not have told me that? 15 years ago. Like, because we can talk about, like, the number of articles that have been propping up for years. Our designers should be storytellers. Okay, how? Like, I've read those articles I felt intimidated by, because I'm like, at that time, I couldn't even string a sentence together properly in front of the people not in the room. I was like, oh, how? Why? No, because it's this weird narrative. Like, oh, you should be this or designer should code. A designer should do this. And you're saying, okay, let's give it a go if it makes sense. But would you like to know, allude to how to do it? And I think this is why being more open about it actually makes this whole industry more liberated. Because all of a sudden doesn't seem as scary or just complicated or as weird. Because there's always a question like, oh, should I be saying yes to this? Should I be saying no to this? Is this the right choice to make or not? I believe there's something called like, anatomy of opportunity. There's the rejection itself, like obviously we talked about earlier, like, and the no can turn into a yes pretty quickly. And sometimes a yes, which should have been a no, it turns out to be a really toxic yes. And you're like, I really regret making this decision. So with your systems, do you have a sort of measure of anatomy of opportunity? Do you ever think how you decide? Do you have a processes?
- [45:05]
Liz Mosey
I think for me, it always comes back to like, what my purpose of my business is and what my. So I think there's like, purpose, there's goals and there's values. I think it's those three things that I use to make those decisions. Like I mentioned at the beginning, my purpose with my business is to help small businesses with their branding and marketing. So does it. Is it going to help someone? And sometimes it's like, it'll be create. It'll be more niche down than that. But does it help those people? So that's the purpose. The goals are like more personal. What do I want to achieve my business? And then the values, like, what's important to me. There's some companies that if they came knocking at my door, it would be a hard no because I know that their values don't align with what I think is important, whereas there's others where it would be like an immediate yes. And I think that just helps me make decisions more effectively. And sometimes I still get them wrong all the time. There's so many times when you do a project or you work with someone and you're halfway through and you're like, I should have listened to the red flag at the beginning, and I didn't. And now I need to learn from this situation. I'll be better equipped next time to make the right decision. But, yeah, I think that's. It's not like a formal process or anything, but those are the three elements that help me to know what to pursue and also what to say yes to when it comes my way.
- [46:31]
Radim Malinj
Do you remember an opportunity that you nearly didn't take on, but it changed your career as it is today?
- [46:39]
Liz Mosey
Oh, do I remember an opportunity? Oh, do I. Oh, I didn't know.
- [46:45]
Radim Malinj
Is that. Was there something that you would have said no to? You didn't say no, and then actually it turned out to be better?
- [46:52]
Liz Mosey
No, I can't think of one of those. I can think of a situation where there was an opportunity that everybody, like, from, like, an outside perspective, I looked crazy for saying no to, and it was totally the right decision for me to say no to, But I can't. Not. Nuns spring to mind. I think there must be lots of.
- [47:14]
Radim Malinj
Is it possible to elaborate on that decision on that project, the thing that you said no to when people thought it was crazy to you? Do you know what it was?
- [47:21]
Liz Mosey
Yeah, I know what it was. I'm not going to share it publicly. I'll tell you about it later. But it's not really. Yeah, it's not that helpful to share the actual thing it was. But I can't think of one where I was gonna say no and then said yes and it changed. Because I think. I think I have got quite clearly on what my values are and. But I get your point. Like, sometimes I might be wrong on that. Yeah, sometimes you have to take a risk, I think, and you have to try something the way that I think. You know, we talked about that negative mindset and that positive mindset. I think even when things don't go well, like where I've ignored a red flag, but I've done it anyway, and it hasn't gone amazingly. I try and see that as an opportunity to learn and an opportunity to refine my values or refine my goals, sometimes I actually. Okay, this kind of. I. There's been a lot of instances where I've done something. Oh, no, this doesn't answer your question. No, I don't think I can answer it. I think basically there's been a lot of situations where I've done something because I thought that I should, and I've realized that wasn't actually my goal. That was someone else's goal. Like, I think that is part of the problem with it being in the social media world now is that we see what everybody else is doing and we see what everybody else's goals are, and it's really easy to get distracted by that. And I've had so many situations in my career where I thought, oh, I should. This is what I should do next. Oh, I should do this. And quite often I do them and then I'm like, oh, no, this isn't for me. And then you have to have the confidence to be like, it's okay that other people want that, but I don't actually want that. So I'm all for experimenting and trying things, but, yeah, I can't. I keep. I'm gonna have to mull that one over and get back to you. Rather than. Because I can't think of a scenario where I said thought I should say no, but I said yes, and it changed my career.
- [49:13]
Radim Malinj
I'm glad to hear about your PGV purpose, goals and values, because essentially you're talking about a strategy for your personal brand, for your creativity, for your business. Because it's easy to be distracted even in the slightly pre social media world, because there's big brands that people don't work with. They're like, whoever would want me? You would work with them. I found an invoice from 2012 for £254 to Coca Cola, who apparently had a day's worth of budget. It was for an agency, which I will name. They had a day's worth of budget to create, literally a advertising campaign for, like, service stations, like how Coke can perk you up. And I knew there was, like, it stunk of BS straight away. I didn't have more values. I was just bamboozled by this fact, hey, I can have Coca Cola in my portfolio. And we all know what happens when you. When you get work in your portfolio because of a big brand or because it promises everything, it never works out. And I remember it went on for 10 days. It failed. They want me to spend another 10 days fixing it. And I'm like, what is going on here? And did I have my purpose, goals and values? Yeah, my goal was to potentially have Coca Cola, but I put my values aside from my purpose aside. I was like, I'm only here for myself. And that was the wrong thing to do. So when it comes to, I think, business strategy, I loved Max Ottignan from Ragged Edge who told me on my show that as a business, we Tell ourselves what we're going to do and we're going to tell ourselves what we're not going to do and we're going to stick with it.
- [50:48]
Liz Mosey
Yeah. And the clearer you get on those things, when you were talking about earlier, what was it that we were talking about? Where you were like people. Oh, the storytelling. So storytelling we often think of as this mystical thing that we don't really understand. And actually it's what you said, the character conflict and the conclusion. And I think it's the same with strategy. Like, I think strategy is one of those words where we're like, oh my goodness, what does it mean? Like, it's this. It's like this really like mystical. We could never understand it. And I get so frustrated with that word because it just seems so vague. But actually it is really simple as well, where it's like having those purpose, goals and values. But ultimately strategy is having a goal, making a plan to achieve it and then achieving it. You know what I mean? Like in its purest form, that is what a strategy is. And I think the design industry is definitely guilty of this and I'm sure lots of other industries as well where we try to complicate things that are actually pretty simple. I like to make ourselves look important or better or whatever it is. And I find that really strange.
- [51:55]
Radim Malinj
But yeah, I think the best way to summarize strategy and how to make strategy actually work is when you drive the goals, when you drive the purpose, when you drive the values. Because as soon as you open yourself to other influences, to other ways of know using creativity for sale, you have to give something away. It's not always not yours anymore. And I think that's where people make mistakes, thinking, oh, people showed up on my doorstep because I'm amazing. Like none. People showed up because they've got their business goals. Like they, they want you to do what they want you to do. We can talk about it again forever. Maybe there is a another away fixture for you coming soon.
- [52:30]
Liz Mosey
But maybe I'll be your first thought third and I'm not missing.
- [52:35]
Radim Malinj
Before I let you go, I want to know if the painting of the castle from Segovia is still somewhere in existence.
- [52:41]
Liz Mosey
It is. Yeah. I'll go and find it. It's at my parents house. I'll go get it, share a picture.
- [52:46]
Radim Malinj
It makes me happy that it exists because you can always draw back to that memory, that feeling. Because it's been great to learn more about you.
- [52:55]
Liz Mosey
Oh, thanks. You asked such good questions. I've literally never talked about most of.
- [52:59]
Radim Malinj
The still hit me on my head today. It was like, I've never heard you talking about this. And as I said, we talk and we and everything that we normally talk about is being captured in this podcast in one way or another. But it's been great to join dots and what you do, in my opinion, is singular. I celebrate you on that because some people might strive to find that singular. Some people might not even know what singular could be in their life. So keep at it because everything that's coming your way is it's very much some of many parts of what you're doing. So well done.
- [53:29]
Liz Mosey
Thank you, thank you.
- [53:40]
Radim Malinj
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. Foreign if you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you you do. To get 10% of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.