Dare to lean into indigenous values - Laura Cibilich

Summary

Daring Creativity. Daring Forever.

Episode Summary: "Dare to lean into indigenous values" – Laura Cibilich

Host: Radim Malinic
Guest: Laura Cibilich, Co-founder of RUN (Design & Advertising Agency, New Zealand)
Date: October 13, 2025

---

Episode Overview

In this rich and inspiring episode, Radim Malinic welcomes Laura Cibilich, co-founder of RUN, an indigenous-owned design and advertising agency in Aotearoa, New Zealand. Their conversation explores the powerful role of Māori and indigenous values in business and creativity, from Laura’s personal journey as a creative and agency founder, to topics such as kinship, sustainability, neurodivergence in creative partnerships, the courage to say no to misaligned clients, and reflections on the future of human creativity in an AI-driven world.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Embracing Indigenous & Māori Values in Business

• Laura and her husband gradually moved towards embracing Te Ao Māori (the Māori worldview), weaving indigenous perspectives into their agency’s work.
• This shift was both personal (through her husband’s exploration of genealogy or whakapapa) and market-driven, as clients increasingly sought culturally woven approaches.
  [00:38], [04:16] Laura: "Incorporating an indigenous lens across our work...driven by us as a family being on our journey...more and more clients were coming to us for that lens as well."
• Māori culture and the principles of kinship, care for community and environment are deeply embedded in New Zealand’s creative industries and are increasingly required in RFPs and pitches. [05:23] Laura: "It's a really nice thing to bring in the indigenous culture...it makes it unique, genuinely from New Zealand and that kind of makes it special."

2. Laura’s Creative Journey

• Growing up in New Zealand felt “normal” to Laura, but her path was shaped by her passion for art and creativity.
• She emphasized that everyone is inherently creative, but sometimes it is “taught out of us”—raising questions about nature, nurture, curiosity, and how career choices shape creativity. [07:29] Laura: "I believe that everyone is creative and some people just get it almost taught out of them...but I kept that and just have always been passionate about art and creativity."

3. Founding RUN – The Agency

• RUN began in 2008 when Laura quit her job to start her own studio, inspired by conferences and other designers. Initially, there was no strict business plan, and she took “organic” steps, sometimes taking on part-time jobs before the agency stabilized. [13:34] Laura: "I didn't plan it as a business...I did end up having to go back to work a little bit part time...as I built it up over those years."
• The business became serious with the arrival of children – motivation intensified when Laura was pregnant, leading to their first major pitch and win with Niue Tourism. [18:03] Laura: "Nothing like having a baby on the way to actually make you think seriously about life...when I had the baby...a pitch came up for Niue Tourism...and we actually did win. That set us off on our journey and established us as a real agency."

4. Creative Partnership & Neurodivergence

• Laura runs RUN with her husband, Raymond Taneemakai (ADHD). Their complementary styles—Laura’s attention to detail vs. Raymond’s rapid, idea-focused thinking—are a strength. [10:49] Laura: "We very much are opposites. I'm quite detail orientated...he's all about ideas and big thinking and he's actually ADHD. So his brain's going a million miles an hour..."
• Raymond’s ADHD diagnosis came only recently but helped explain dynamics in both their personal and professional lives. [22:26] Laura: "He only got diagnosed about two years ago...I thought we all just put it down to personality...this is just my story personally..."
• Diagnosis was both a relief and a challenge, offering both understanding and moments of friction; it has empowered conversations with others in their community about neurodiversity. [24:21] Laura: "Having the diagnosis does help explain it...sometimes he'll use it as an excuse...but you can just push through and do it...he does think of it as a superpower."

5. Values-Driven Leadership & Agency Growth

• Key to RUN’s evolution was codifying its values—not just Māori principles but also creativity, innovation, honesty, family-friendliness, growth, environmental responsibility. [27:42] Laura: "We structured our values...that really acted as a guiding star for us...still got really similar values today..." [29:56] Laura: "Grounded in te ao Māori values, indigenous values, while also being grounded in creativity and innovation...open and honest, being positive...growth and knowledge...family friendly...responsible to the environment as well."
• Their values guide not only internal culture and hiring but also business development: which clients to accept, which projects to pursue or decline. [33:38] Laura: "Clients that come to us are the ones that are generally pretty good fit, but we're still not scared to say no to those who don't align to the values..."

6. The Courage to Say No

• RUN chooses clients who align with their values, sometimes turning down lucrative work for misaligned brands (e.g. fossil fuels, alcohol with questionable messaging). [35:13] Laura: "We don't say no often...organizations that aren't aligned generally don't come to us. We wouldn't do any kind of fossil fuel clients...One example...an alcohol brand...we just said we're not going to be a great fit..."
• Laura acknowledges the challenge and pressure of balancing commercial realities with their commitment to purpose and integrity.

7. Standout Projects and Making an Impact

• Laura’s proudest moment: leading a major branding and environmental project for Niue’s Huvalu Forest with the United Nations, collaborating with scientists and incorporating local materials. [38:49] Laura: "One [project] does come to mind...for the United Nations...Huvalu Forest...branding, typeface, signage utilizing wood from the forest, info center graphics...just such a...awesome project and beautiful to work on. Never thought I'd be doing it."

8. Human Creativity vs. Artificial Intelligence

• Laura is actively learning about AI and recognizes its growing influence, but feels culturally embedded, values-driven creative work cannot be replicated or replaced by machines. [41:28] Laura: "We will...lean into AI tools, but...our work is embedded with this culture and you can't replicate that and real people..."
• There is a place for AI to enhance workflow and productivity, but a resurgence of “very much human creativity” is likely as clients and audiences crave authenticity and meaning. [44:25] Radim: "With AI...we really get to see the people who cut corners and people who don't. There’ll be a resurgence of human creativity with some sprinkles of AI for productivity..."
• Laura highlights the role of optimism, connection, and remaining rooted in values—in the face of rapid technological change: [46:11] Laura: "When we stop the nonsense, it’s so much easier to actually feel fuzzy inside and go, we'll be okay...I'm an optimist, so...I think we will be [okay]..."

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Agency Purpose:
  "Indigenous values aren't separate from business, they're fundamental human principles." — Laura, [02:22]
• On Embracing Neurodiversity:
  "Diagnosis...does help explain it...he does think of it as a superpower." — Laura, [24:21]
• On Values:
  "When you strip away everything else...just quite pure. Just people to people." — Laura, [32:17]
• On Saying No:
  "We don't do a lot of product stuff...we wouldn't do any fossil fuel clients. For others, it might just be a not yet. You have to balance it, but those values really guide us." — Laura, [35:13]
• On AI & Creativity:
  "Our work is embedded with culture and you can't replicate that. Real people—so I’m still really excited about that part of it." — Laura, [41:28]

---

Important Segments (Timestamps)

• Indigenous lens & cultural foundation: [00:38] – [05:08]
• Laura’s creative & educational journey: [07:29] – [09:22]
• Building a business & family: [10:49] – [18:03]
• The power of values & agency evolution: [27:42] – [32:43]
• Saying no to misaligned clients: [33:38] – [36:14]
• Favorite project – United Nations & Huvalu Forest: [38:49] – [41:03]
• AI and the future of creativity: [41:28] – [46:38]

---

Final Takeaways

This episode is a masterclass in how a small, values-based agency can achieve profound impact by aligning business with deep cultural principles, navigating the twists and turns of creative and personal growth, and confidently shaping its own future—even in an era of accelerating technological change.
Laura’s wisdom, vulnerability, and grounded optimism offer a hopeful blueprint for creative practitioners and entrepreneurs everywhere.

---

Transcript

[A]

Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provides them with value. So thank you for being here and for helping out. Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we didn't start out in this niche really, but yeah, we gradually over the years it was moving towards Te Ao Mori, like the Mori worldview and incorporating an indigenous lens across our work. And that was driven by us like as a family, me and my husband being on our journey, him exploring his culture more and his genealogy, Whakapapa we call it, and just exploring that. And at the same time, more and more clients were coming to us for that lens as well. Now it's kind of part of every pitch document we receive. RFPs the Mori culture is woven through work here in New Zealand, so it very much comes from all that Foreign.

[A]

Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinich. I'm a designer, author and attorney. Curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create foreign Talking with Laura Sibilic, a co founder of ran, a design and advertising agency in New Zealand. She shares with me her journey from being a graphic designer to agency owner running a studio guided by Maori values and how those indigenous values aren't separate from business, their fundamental human principles. Flora reveals how becoming a parent for strategic thinking leading to winning major clients despite being up against much bigger agencies. Our conversation explores navigating neurodivergence in creative partnerships, the courage to say no to misaligned clients, and why human creativity will always matter more than AI generated shortcuts. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Laura Ceballacho. Laura, it's great to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

[B]

Yeah, Kia ora. Hello. Good, thanks. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

[A]

I really want to know what it feels like to be a creative in New Zealand in 2025 and how does it Influence your world. How much of focus did you put on your local culture? I want to know all of it. But for those who may not have heard of you and your studio, how would you introduce yourself?

[B]

Yeah, hello, I'm Laura, Laura Sibelic. I run the design and advertising agency called Run, based in Aotearoa, New Zealand and started it about 17 years ago. Now run it with my husband, Raymond Taneemakai. And yeah, we work a lot in the cultural space. He's mori. It makes us one of the few indigenous owned agencies probably in the world and we lean into that. So that inspires a lot of our work and brings clients to us as well.

[A]

So tell me about your philosophy behind your agency, why you started and positioning and the work that you do.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we didn't start out in this niche really. I have a background in graphic design, so was a graphic designer many years. Still think of myself as a designer, although I'm probably not on the tools anymore, really sadly. But yeah, we gradually over the years it was moving towards Te Ao Mori, like the Mori worldview and incorporating an indigenous lens across our work. And that was driven by us, like as a family, me and my husband being on our journey, him exploring his culture more and his genealogy, Whakapapa we call it, and just exploring that. And at the same time, more and more clients were coming to us for that lens as well. Now it's kind of part of every pitch document. We receive RFPs, things like that. Yeah, a lot of the Mori culture is woven through work here in New Zealand, so it very much comes from all that.

[A]

So here's my question. You said it's kind of woven through every RFP on every pitch. Is it a collective awareness? Is there sort of amplification of the values, like we need to look local first before bring in anything else?

[B]

Yeah, I think so. It's, you know, a really nice thing to bring in the indigenous culture. It very much feels like we've embraced it. And here there is a treaty, Te Tiriti o Waitangi. So that was signed in 1840 when. I'm not the best person to talk about all this. There's a lot of history involved in it all. But yeah, when people came here it was a big thing signing this treaty and there's just a lot in it and. But people are driven to who include it through their work and incorporate it and it makes it unique, genuinely from New Zealand and that kind of makes it special.

[A]

The New Zealand's got kind of one of the youngest Populations, because it's only sort of 800 years old, it's fiercely protective of its identity. Maori culture was very much built on kinship. It's very much like how people stick together and how they look after one another. And I think what we like touching on and what you're telling me so far is it feels like that kinship is very much that running theme through. What would you guys do right now?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, A lot of it is about, yeah, kinship, I guess, relationships, treating people right. And also how it links into the environment as well. Yeah, it all comes back to that. So I think that's quite common across indigenous cultures across the world. It all links to the environment. So, yeah, it really is special. And New Zealanders are really connected to. To the environment anyway. We're close to the ocean, we've got lots of land. It's just beautiful. And it's great to incorporate that through the work as well.

[A]

It's a fascinating thing to actually look into the history because that's created this societal cocktail of influences that must be unique like never else. So I'm going to bring it to graphic design now. Talking about you obviously growing up in. In place like New Zealand. What was your introduction to creativity? What was your background? What was your upbringing and that kind of stuff. Because you find yourself, well, technically from. To me, on the other side of the world. And I want to know what it was like.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, to me it was just normal. I didn't know anything else. So it doesn't matter that I'm on a little island at the bottom of the world. Just grew up loving art, loving creativity. I believe that, you know, everyone is creative and some people just get it almost taught out of them. Sometimes kids get it taught out of them, which is really sad. But I kept that and just have always been passionate about art and creativity and loved it. Did like lots of coloring competitions when I was little and things like that. Lots of drawing. All that was. I was that kid. And.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then just through school, did art through school and then took a year off to decide what I wanted to do and did some night classes and things like that, like photography and things like that. But yeah, decided design was it. That's what I really wanted to do. And from there studied a diploma in graphic design and weighed up doing a diploma over a degree so I could get those extra years of experience working rather than studying. Yeah, I was.

[A]

Did you have any influences? Was there a particular moment that you thought, like, okay, I want to be as good as this. This makes Me move like this, this is something that I want to be the enabler, the conduit to this communication. Was there anything like that?

[B]

I kind of came into it really naive and I didn't learn about the world of graphic design or famous designers till I was studying it. Really I did in my high school years. I think at the end of high school I did visit some thinking that I wanted to be a designer. Visited some studios asking for a job, part time job or an internship or something. None of them gave me a job, but it was just even just going in there. Some would sit down and talk with me and even that was inspiring to me, just being around it all and feeling the creativity in the office and I just loved it and got inspired by that.

[A]

I think you mentioned that you started your business or that you've got your business with your husband, is that right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So you met a fellow creative soul.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

What was that like? I've heard a lot of recent conversations about like relationship partnerships, business partnerships on this show and it's very much like the opposites attract and thrive. What was it like in your case?

[B]

Yeah, that's probably us. And when we met we were quite young, we weren't in this industry at all. He was a postie and I was in retail. During that year off, everyone thinks we met in the industry but we didn't at all. And I think I was quite clear on what I wanted to do and he was figuring out what he wanted to do. He comes from the advertising background so he did like an advertising creativity course degree and I did the graphic design avenue and I started the company in 2008 and he joined me a few years later as he was freelancing and coming in more and it just grew from there.

[A]

I'm loving the plot twist. I'm loving the plot. It was like he was a postie, I was in retail. I was like, hey, there's a graphic designer. And as a guy coming from ad background. No, he was a postie. I was in retail. I think potentially the best way to actually find that joined curiosity and what do you want to do? And that sounds super, super exciting and.

[B]

Linking to your kind of like the opposites attract kind of thing. We very much are opposites. Like I'm quite detail orientated and love the finer details of the designs and he's just all about ideas and big thinking and the big ideas and he's actually adhd. So his brain's going a million miles an hour and constantly onto the next thing and all that. So we're very different.

[A]

Fair works. Yeah, I love that story so far. I'm going to go back to one thing that you said just a few seconds ago, and you said that creativity sometimes is taught out of people. It's something I've been thinking about a lot recently. I'm working on my seventh book based on the theme of this podcast. And I'm thinking, is this the reality? Is it excuse? Is it a loss of curiosity? Because I'm thinking if the creativity was thought out of us, there will be no creatives. And it's usually the people who are postees or in retail that even though obviously you get your graphic design and I degree, but I'm thinking, would you think that it actually depends on what's deep inside us that drives the exploration of creativity? Because, yes, we can always have more creative subjects in school, but then some money is to run the bank and then maybe their degree in watercolor wouldn't be that. So I just feel we're not going to say, well, because you go to graphic design, the business acumen is taught out of you. So it's not me challenging, it's me running this as an open research and open questions like, what do you think about this? Or how much of accountability when it comes to creativity do we really need?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, no, I love the thinking. It's nature versus nurture. And yeah, when you think that to kids, everyone is curious and I guess maybe that's the creativity that I think of or see experiencing the world for the first time, every single experience for the first time, and it's that kind of leads into the creativity or inspires the creativity. But then I guess some people are just naturally gravitate more towards design or accounting. So, yeah, a bit of both, I guess. I've never thought about it that way.

[A]

Yeah, because in your case and your husband's case, you started your agency and he joined you because you wanted to do this together, like you wanted to explore creative work. Let's go to 2008 and you've started your own thing. What did that feel like? What was that change from not being an agency owner or not having a creative business to having a creative business and not realizing, oh, shit, I'm running a business, what do we do next?

[B]

Yeah, well, I used to go to the creative conference, semi permanent. I'm not sure if you know it, but it was on every year, semi permanent. And I'd go there, listen to all these amazing designers show their work, and they were. It seemed like they were all freelancers or business owners or had their own studio kind of thing. And I always left it thinking, God, I just want to quit my job and start my own thing. And I think that every year. And so finally one day I just did it, basically, which is crazy. I did end up. I didn't plan it as a business or think strategically at all at that time. So probably if I was going to do it again, I would plan it out a bit better. I did end up having to go back to work a little bit part time and get contracts and things like that as I built it up over those years. But that's how it started.

[A]

How did you feel like when you, as you said, like you have to go into employment? Like, how did you feel that you wanted to start your own thing but the dreams of the Semi Permanent Stardom Conference, emulating the others, didn't happen straight away? What was that like for you? Did it feel challenging or were you like, that's just a part of a job?

[B]

I think it was just part of your journey, really. There are ups and downs through life and it's just one of those things and I think, I think very long term in general. And so it was just one of those bumps in the road. I always knew I would get to running a studio, but it just took longer than I thought maybe and needed a few more steps along the way. We'll be back after a quick break.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Luxe Coffee Co. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. It's one of the things I'm really trying to help novices and newcomers not even help just to say, look, it's okay to start again. It's okay to do this. Not slowly when you watch. I was watching just before our conversation. I was watching an interview with Les Claypool from Primus, musician for 30 only nearly 40 years. It was like, look, we took years and years and years to get good. We played shitty gigs, we played small rooms, we did this. But we learned bit by bit and we stuck to what we really thought of doing. Whereas the world moves much faster right now, at least we like to believe that it moves much faster and it feels like not getting things wrong and sort of fatal blow. Okay, this is it. Whereas in fact, we've got so much more information and so much more resources and more people to talk to and we are so much more connected because as you said when you were growing up, it didn't make any difference being on the island, on the other side of the world, because that was your immediate surroundings. Whereas now we've got a bigger view of the world is a bit more scarier.

[B]

Yeah. Is it too much? Is the thing like is more necessarily better or is being naive the way to go because you don't know the other side of it? And I quite like that. I'm not hugely qualified technically, so I didn't do that degree, so I don't have the knowledge of people that have. But I think not knowing the rules, you naturally break them and you make discoveries along the way, which makes it all, you know, even more awesome.

[A]

You got your business moving, you got your business and strong enough that it was supporting you to not need an additional income. How was your work developing? What was it that you started your own thing with? It's easy to dream about the freedom then the artistic expression, the carte blanches that we demand as a young designer. So then you realize, oh, this is a reality and I need to find something that I really want to enjoy doing. What type of work did you want it to do, what you didn't get to do and how did that sort of shape the way of that led you to build, run to what it is today?

[B]

Yeah, I guess the real driver to it becoming serious and it needing to work as a business was becoming pregnant about 12, 12 years ago, I think. And there's nothing like having a baby on the way to actually make you think seriously about life and what you're doing with your life. And so that was real motivation for me. I really felt that. And then when I had the baby, like brand new, breastfeeding in middle of the night kind of thing, a pitch came up for Niue Tourism to be their sole agency. And they're a small Pacific island country, beautiful, by the way. And I was just thinking, oh, imagine if we won that. And long story short, we actually did win. Pitched for it. Won. And that set us off on a. Yeah. On our journey and established us as a real, real agency.

[A]

Let's talk about a pitch, because nothing gives you more focus than having children because you have to step out of yourself and go, right, okay, I was enough of an idiot wondering about number one. Okay, what do the others need? So how did you guys work on the pitch? And how do you have to change to your working processes to make it happen and put that extra effort into winning the work?

[B]

Yeah, I guess nothing. Nothing changed. I was still. I do enjoy being a designer. I love working. So I didn't really have time off, couldn't afford it either, but was just part of the process of getting work. We hadn't done any major pitches before that, but it was just part of it. And I wouldn't have possibly before kids. I probably wouldn't have even pitched for it thinking that we're too small or wouldn't win. But we just positioned ourselves. I think we even said in that we might not be the obvious choice, but we think would be the right choice. And we were up against really big agencies with cafes and in their office and everything like this. But I think they saw something in us as well. And maybe it was like the passion, like we really wanted it. And love the Pacific Islands too. We've got a few Pacific island clients now as well. And I love the ocean and everything like that. And I guess they just saw that passion in us and that we were. They didn't want to be the smallest client in with a bunch of big clients. They. I think they knew that they would be our biggest client and that because of that we would put all our energy into it.

[A]

You don't get qualified as an agency just because you got drinks for it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But it's really interesting what you said. Like, you don't want to be the smallest account with the biggest agency because as you said, it was the passion. They saw something in you that you guys did that. I wrote a word fearlessness. Like it's when you. And I think the parenting aspect is so guiding in a way because as. As a parent, you just have to get stuck in and you're working with the unknowns all the time and the unknowns change all the time. Because as someone once said, like, it doesn't get any easier. It just gets different. And it's very much applicable to the creative work. It doesn't get easier. It just gets different. Because if it gets really easy, is it. Are you really doing the right thing? So if I may ask, obviously you've been working with your husband. What I'm looking at about 15 years from about 2010. Right. And you mentioned that he's ADHD. And we're getting to know and understand more about ADHD. We're getting more People with diagnosis. We're getting more people with neurodivergent diagnosis. Because I feel once upon a time, as a society, global society, fooled ourselves that everyone's pretty normal. Some people do stand out a little bit more. And that's the people we need to lock up because they're a little bit too mad. And the more we understand about ourselves, we're realizing that no one's normal. We all go. We are on the spectrum in some way. So what I want to know is when did you guys know that he has adhd? And how does it sort of work with your personal and working relationship? Because you've got. You're connected in more than one way and how was it for you and how does it work? Because I think this kind of information could be really beneficial to people being heard and seen.

[B]

Yes. And I don't think there's any right way to do it or approach it or anything like that. This is just my story personally or our story. And we only. He only got diagnosed about two years ago, actually. And it was from. I'm not even sure I really believed in it before that. I thought we all just put it down to personality. I guess everyone has different personalities. And I hadn't really looked into it, didn't give much thought. And then this like a meme or something popped up or a video on my social feeds and it was a husband talking about his ADHD wife. And I was just like, wow. Every single one of these things that he does is what Raymond does was like, oh, maybe there's something in this. Looked Googled it a bit. Got him to do an online test, like adhd. New Zealand had a test online or something like that. Got him to do that myself as well. And I just, I don't know, got like a one or something. And he got really high scores that said, like, he's most likely adhd. And then from there he explored it, but it took about two years for him to go through that process. It was quite difficult here in New Zealand. I don't know what it's like in the rest of the world, but it took a few steps to get diagnosed. And then from there he's tried different drugs at different times, medication and stuff.

[A]

Yeah. This is interesting. So just before I get to the next question, because you said personality, sometimes you think it's just a personality of a character. Is that something that you don't understand? With Raymond's diagnosis and the follow ups, like, has it changed the nature of your work? Is there a way to utilize the diagnosis and do you now you know what it is? Does it potentially cause less friction? Do you see this as any sort of benefits to it? It's like, could it be like a. Seen as a weight of your shoulders?

[B]

Yeah, there's kind of two sides to it. Having the diagnosis does help explain it and give a reason for why he's like that. But then, and this is more the husband wife thing, sometimes he'll use it as an excuse of oh, that's just how my brain works so I can't kind of thing. And I'm like, but you can just push through and do it. So it's a love hate thing. I think he does think of it as a superpower and it has just while we're on that kind of journey of learning about it, it has helped differently.

[A]

It's fantastic. Yeah. Because I think, I mean it's, I think we can go both ways. There was a joke by English comedian who said, hey look, she said, my friend was diagnosed with adhd, but Ellie, I think you also any hdhd, she's like, really? It's not a pyramid scheme. Not just because like we're going to get everyone diagnosed, but it's. I think it's relief in a very adjective to use. I think privileged, beneficial. I don't know what the right word to use but I think we should be appreciative of the fact that we understand more about ourselves because we talking about the history of New Zealand like being 800 years and the history of our world like you know, being 3, 4, 5, 6,000 years old, yet it's 2025. And we are just about understanding what ADHD means. Like what is all of this little bits. Because I think it's what we need for us to understand ourselves. And you get idiots from the right wing sides that be like, oh, everyone's no special. No, we're just understanding who we are, how we work and how to use it as, as a superpower, as a benefit, as is something that pushes us on.

[B]

Yeah, you just lean into it, I guess. And for him, I think he's lucky that he found advertising and it's perfect for him and how his brain works too. And I think it does work for him because he's constantly coming up with ideas and that's the job that he has in advertising to come up with ideas as a creative director. So it does go hand in hand and he's naturally found that.

[A]

Yeah, excellent stuff.

[B]

Yeah. And over time we've met, we meet so many people with adhd. Now and I think his conversations with people has even led to people being diagnosed and stuff. And we'll meet them later and they'll be like, oh, thank you for talking to me about it. I've realize this about me. I can explain why I think like this and things like that. So yeah, it's good.

[A]

So here you are on a podcast talking to my history of New Zealand, talking about your husband, and we haven't really talked about what you do for work. So look, you said earlier that you're a graphic designer, but you're not on tools as much as you used to be. Let's talk about a grow because I want to get to the. Not get to talk about what you guys do as your agency, your advertising and design agency and what kind of problems do you solve, but your growth from the person who started the business needing to go back into employment, reason of getting things oiled up properly, now being in a leadership role as a co founder and a design director. How do you see your own growth? Because ultimately, as the theme of this show is there in creativity, like you, you pushed yourself to keep growing and going forward. So how would you say you were a different person to the person that started in 2008?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, good question. When I started, I mean, again, very naive and you don't know what you don't know. So just fumbled along, grew it organically without much planning or. Yeah. Thinking about it and then over time figured out what we're doing and what work we did best or what work we wanted to do more of and structured our values. And I think that was a big thing for us. Once we had the values set and written down that really acted as a guiding star for us. And we've still got really similar values today. That was a few years ago when we were quite a few years ago when we kind of first got our first team member and yeah, that guided us and then thinking to now. It's a very strange feeling like being one of the few women founders like I think definitely in New Zealand and the world there's stats you hear of 1% of agency owners are female and things like that. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but it's just crazy. And I do have the feeling of people look at me for that now as well, and I have the weight of that and the pressure a little bit, but also at the same time wanting to give back and share my knowledge and my story, to help others, hopefully pave the way for others and things like that.

[A]

So, yeah, hopefully it helps people is the word values. And the word values is mentioned. It always makes me remember that I never have my values defined. When I started I was very much what value was like, let's do really good work and we work hard to rest. Right. The rest will somehow slot in. Right. But obviously you mentioned the word values and how it guides you. And on your website you say you are grounded in a murder of values to benefit and reach our clients and team. And it's such a guiding star when you talk about it. Like when you actually make it clear to yourself what you're going to do, what you're not going to do and how you're going to do and how you're not going to do it. It's already 50% of the battle solved because you know where you're going to head and when you're not. So tell me about your values, like how you've got to form them, how you got to inform yourself on those and how they guide you on the next journey, on the next step.

[B]

Yeah, well, again, I think it may have come about when I was having kids as well. Like thinking of my personal values, how did I want them to grow up, things like that. And then talking with. There was three of us at the time with our first staff member talking as a group about the kind of work we wanted to do and the values we shared. So grounded in te ao mori values, indigenous values, while also being grounded in creativity and innovation too as a design and advertising agency. And then just human values too open and honest, being positive the way we. We want to be. Growth and knowledge. That's a big one for me. Like always constantly learning, growing. Doesn't matter if it's a formal qualification or just. Just life and life learning, going to things, absorbing as much as you can from everywhere and family friendly. Obviously that's a huge one for us. We've grow in the agency around our kids and responsible like that's not only personally being accountable but like to. To the environment as well. Linking back to that indigenous knowledge.

[A]

Yeah, I am coloring in my lack of knowledge about the values and I just look them up and what I'm getting from this conversation so far from seeing what work that you do and looking at the actual list of values now. Okay, it makes sense now because you talk about care and hospitality, right. You talk about environmental guidance shape, you talk about kinship and relationship, self determination and I can't pronounce Aroha love. We talk about that. And when you bring it down to the human level I think like any idea of a bullshit goes totally aside because this is what cares. I'm seeing this, I'm new to this and I like having these aha moments with these conversations because I'm getting to know you, I'm getting to know more about you, what you do. But seeing these values being ingrained, woven into the tapestry of what you guys do, it makes everything so much. Right. I mean, I would like to believe it makes everything that you do a little bit more grounded and simpler because you don't really know with those values. Especially when you say, like when I was. When I had my kids, I had to choose. No, I had to understand my values. Now it feels so wholesome and so it feels like a hug for the soul.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You've got it. Like it really does ground us and we've got a full time po. Ahereo Mori, cultural director is her role and she likes to say mori values or indigenous values are just human values. When you take it back to just people, to people, it's those human values and the way people are just being real. That's what it comes down to. Yeah. Strip away everything else. It's. Yeah. Just quite pure.

[A]

Did you have an idea that you would be appointing a cultural director when you were stuffed into that?

[B]

No way. No. And even that happened organically. She was a teacher and we, yeah, kind of gradually asked her more and paid her on the side and then it just became too much, too much work, too much payment on the side and just said, can you come in full time and join us? And she left her teaching role about four years ago now, so very lucky to have her.

[A]

That's amazing. So I would like to know more about how you lean into those values and how actually influences your work. And we've now seen more of. What's the right word to use. This is a good one. How does it influence your work now and leaning into it and getting on that journey when you realize that you. When you trim off all the nonsense, let's say all the extras. Let me put it right. Where to it? When you trim off all the extras, you can really focus on something which is for the benefit of people, really.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And that's where we find a lot of our work for the benefit of people or planet, really. It's the kind of work we're aligned to with those values, I suppose. And it really does come back to that. And they help our decisions for who we work with too. We don't say yes to everyone now at the Start, you just take any work you can get kind of thing and figure out what you're good at. And, and now it's like we're positioned for people to know the kind of work we do. And so the clients that come to us are the ones that are generally pretty good fit, but we're still not scared to say no to those who don't align to the values and aren't right for us.

[A]

I want to know about the situation when you say no because I believe when you live and breathe what you do and what you want to do, the universe will know exactly what you stand for. But everyone runs a business, or most of us run a business and say yes and no. I call it the anatomy of opportunity. Like is the yes really a yes? Should the yes be a no and is the no a yes or should it be a no? Like it's a little mathematical equation. No. Do two negatives equal a positive no? If you do rubbish work with rubbish people, you're not going to get a lot more of rubbish work with rubbish people lined up.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You as a business owner, business founder, how do you process metabolize? Now, hopefully it's easier with being leaning into your values, but no to something lucrative.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What goes into your mind? What is the process in your agency? How do you guys do it to say no?

[B]

It is hard. We don't say no often and now because we just put it out there what we like as an agency, what the kind of work we do and our values. So organizations that aren't aligned generally don't come to us. We don't do a lot of kind of product stuff. We wouldn't do any kind of fossil fuel clients, things like that. And for others, it might not be a no, it might just be a not yet as well. So things like that. There's one example where there was a brand, an alcohol brand, we looked at their social content and it didn't align with some of our values and thinking and we just said we're not going to be a great fit. But it's not a no, it's just a not right now. So maybe in a few years we'll see. But yeah, on the flip side, it is hard. As a business owner, you've still got bills to pay, people's lives to pay for all that. So you do feel the pressure of that still commercial side? Yeah. So it's just trying to balance it out and get more of those clients that are wanting to work with us and values aligned.

[A]

I think it's Very important to be honest and transparent about the fact that you got values that you want to know, that you lean into the values that you stand for. You don't always choose opportunities that come our way. We can hope to sort of create some of them, sort of visualize and manifest what we want to. What we want to get out of this. But sometimes it's like you get to hear of agencies who put on a really sort of shiny, kind of conscious look of what they do. And then you get to hear sort of stories. All right, is that the hidden secret of what you guys really work on? And I think it was Havas. Yeah, I think it was Hammers, the agency. It was like once upon a time, B Corp. And they were like, yeah, be working with Shell was like, hey, you can't be a B Corp.

[B]

But there's lots of that. Yeah.

[A]

And again, like, you can't really point fingers or judge people because as many people as they are, they have different values. Of course, we have sort of societal values and the Maori values, it's like things that you sort of, I'm gonna say sort of rudimentary. It's just. It's the basic principles of human society that guide this. Because when you whip it up into the sort of hyper capitalist sphere, people talk about values, people talk about all sorts of things. But ultimately the engine, the machine is going 100 miles an hour. And to make any kind of change feels almost impossible. And I don't want to get too heavy on this.

[B]

I love it. Yeah. And I mean, I guess we're small enough that we can be so strongly aligned to our values and say no and things like that. With those kind of things, it's like, where is the line? And then ultimately, if you think bigger picture, does it really matter in terms of big thinking? Is a few job losses or not worth it either way? So. And would the planet thank you for it? It's just about the money, that kind of thing. So we really lean into trying to be responsible and looking after the planet and all those things.

[A]

What I want to know, what is the project? If you can think of one that you, you would have Never thought in 2008 that's what you would be doing. And it's something that you're so proud of because that's how you've grown as an agency, as humans and as creatives, that you would have never imagined we could be doing that. And obviously, you know, that was the pitch that you never thought you might win. But what is the project that was.

[B]

That we try not to do pictures, so this one did get handed to us, but from our previous work and there's, I mean, there's been so many awesome projects along the way. There's so many I could mention, but one does come to mind and it was for the United nations, so for the Food and Agricultural Organization of the United nations, the fao, and for the Hvalu Forest. So that's a forest that makes up about a quarter of the country of Niue. And so obviously got that through Niue Tourism a few years later. And it was just like amazing. We did a big project, huge contract that was horrible to reach. Never seen a bigger contract than one with the U.N. but we did. We had to, as part of the contract, had to subcontract scientists, like a science organization who was way bigger than us at the time as well, and traveled over there with science and researchers and photographers and things, and ended up doing branding, typeface, a whole lot of signage across the forest and the trails and utilizing wood from the forest as the post for the signage and things like that. And the touchscreen thing at the info center and airport graphics and all these things, all these pieces that were part of it. But it was just such a. An awesome project and beautiful to work on. Never thought I'd be doing it.

[A]

That's amazing. That's an amazing 360 moment because it's just like where you start and where you travel and where it takes you. Ultimately you want to do great work. Because that's. Most of us who start in this industry go, I really want to create something that makes a difference, satisfies my soul. This is my expression. And when you can, when you can layer all of these other reasons and causes on top, that's the good one. Because on our journey through sort of creative self acceptance and getting external validation from the public, peers, the industry, media, press, wherever you're thinking, like, oh, okay, if only if I was to do the next LeBron shoe or the campaign or the T shirt graphic or whatever, I will be the dawn of this industry. And then you realize it doesn't matter where you are in the world because the magic happens when the real soul and the real values actually come out. Right?

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, that's so true that those shoes wouldn't excite me at all. I wouldn't want to do that. That would be a no. It's more than that. It's a yeah. The feeling you get that it's so special.

[A]

Fantastic. How do you plan for future? Like, how do you see the future of creativity in New Zealand. And with what you guys do, changing, evolving, or what is it that you would like to as a problem to solve going forward?

[B]

Yeah, it is a hard one, like thinking into the future. And I do, I do learn a lot about AI. I'm on a micro credential learning about AI at the moment. It's massive. And then all these different avenues you could go down for the future, you know, will the world get taken over or will it. All the things, superhuman intelligence and all that kind of stuff, it's very scary. But at the same time, it's almost still like day by day and the industry is changing. What will happen to our industry? I don't know. I can't see that far ahead. And we will, we do already lean into AI tools, but like you said, I feel very lucky that our work is embedded with this culture and you can't replicate that and real people. And so. And I come from a print background, so I love the idea of like physical tactility of things and I don't see that changing the physical aspect. And so I'm still really excited about that part of it.

[A]

It kind of reminded me I was watching a broadcast of a cycling race called Vuelta Espana and it had an ad for a bike by a company called Pinarello. And the bike was meant to be symbolized in the fact that it can take you anywhere, right? It can take you to mountains, it can take you to the cities, it can take you anywhere. And I'm looking at this and I'm like, okay, so every single background was generated with AI. And it looks basically, if I was to be brutally honest, it looked like a shitty coloring book. It was like, okay, so you made an ad for bike that's just been released that cost thousands of pounds, dollars of whatever currency you want to apply. It just looks like a kids project. It looks like you. And I will remember like when we used to have clipart and you're thinking like, who created this and why does anyone use it? And. But people were like, put a clipart on this, this is good enough. And you can get. Well, I can do so much better by using my own creativity, using my sort of tools, features, presets, understanding logic in creating something that will make people see that as a value in one of this. Because if someone was to sell me a product which is really expensive, why on earth would you just lean into something which is just a quick fix? Because it shows. And I think with the world of AI, I think we really get to See the people who cut corners and people who don't. Because I think there'll be a resurgence of very much human creativity with some sprinkles of AI for productivity. But I think we are going through that sort of technological peak and we'll go into a plateau. Even though of course, the AI tools we get, not better and whatever. But I think. I think we having to shake up and see where it is. Because ultimately, when you're trying to appeal to people, you're not going to generate AI voice and say, hey, let me tell you a story, because you're going to tell them the story yourself, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's both weird and exciting and scary at the same time. Yeah, but I liked your. The resurgence of human creativity. Yeah. Hopefully nothing replaces that. Yeah, it's. I just don't know what's going to happen. It's an interesting one that we will.

[A]

Yeah, it's an interesting shakeup because there's a lot of noise. AI is. AI has made a very good amount of noise because in certain way, AI tools have been part of what we do in our daily lives. Technology. For years and years and years, it was just those two words, artificial intelligence. Because machine learning's been around for decades of machine learning. Like, what is the machine learning? And then, hey, it's artificial intelligence and it can replace you. But, like, am I panicking now? No, because what you've told me is leaning into values will always stop you from panicking. It's like your safety kit. It's like your first aid kit. Is anyone bleeding? No. And okay, let's take a breath, let's see what's going on. Because there is a lot of valuable questions and discussions about the future of work. But ultimately there will always, in my opinion, there will always be in our lifetime, in our generation, enough people to care about the creativity, about the work, about the customer, about the audience, about us. To say, I'm going to buy the music on vinyl, I'm going to sort of go back to where things feel real rather than going, well, here's the new nugget of interesting. Let's see if this is going to be even applicable tomorrow. And I think when we sort of scale it back, and that brings me back to your no Maori values. It's just like, when we stop the nonsense, it's so much easier to actually feel fuzzy inside and go, we'll be okay.

[B]

Yeah, I think so, and I hope so. I mean, I'm an optimist, so, yeah, I think we will be. And the Vinyl survived. There's still photographs around Polaroid cameras. They might mirror a bit more niche, but people still love those things. And it kind of comes back to what makes us human too. If we replace everything with machines and AI and all that, what have we got? So it's a funny one.

[A]

I'm really sorry because I've come to ask you lots of questions about what you're doing and now I've given you more questions to think through.

[B]

I do think about a bit at the moment. Yeah.

[A]

It's been a real pleasure talking to you and learning more about what you do, how you do it, who you do with and for what reasons and with what values. Because I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot from this conversation. By however far you are in the world and wherever you are, we got so much more in common and so much more to learn from another. And it's fantastic the way you run your agency and where you do business and where you think about creativity, because that's what we. That's exactly what we need right now. So thank you.

[B]

Oh, thank you. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter where in the world you are. Like, it's so well connected now we can do things like this and it's just like we're almost in the same room. Yeah, it's awesome. So, yeah, great to connect.

[A]

Thank you, thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Likes podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.