C (2:36)

Than just serving kumas.

B (2:38)

It's my pleasure to share my conversation with Ryan Luce. Hey Ryan, welcome to the show.

A (2:52)

It's good to be here, Autumn. I feel like a long time listener, first time caller.

C (2:56)

It's really funny because somebody else said it recently and I'm like, I feel like it's a genuine and beautiful compliment. Yeah Ryan, it's been a long time coming. I'm so happy that you're on the show. I've got lots of questions in my mind to see, like, not what you do, how you do it. I think we've got lots, lots of things in common. But before we get into all of this, how did you introduce yourself? Hawaii. What you do?

A (3:17)

Yeah, I'm Ryan Luce. I'm from Marin county in California. I've been mountain biking for about last 25 years. Mountain biking started there in my hometown in Fairfax. I went to California College of the Arts for graphic design, let's see, about 15 years ago. Since then, I've been working as a motion designer and graphic designer in kind of a hybrid way, an art director. So a lot of my practice kind of revolves around the intersection of those things. So how, as a motion designer, do I bring in graphic design processes and thinking and art direction kind of all in one?

C (3:50)

It's a unique introduction because no one's ever said they've been mountain biking for 25 years. So I think, you know what, we'll start there because you must have seen a lot of changes in your life, in the sport and in the approach to the sport in the last 25 years. So normally I would ask people like, hey, what was your first point of creativity? Like, you know, what was the first piece of work that inspired you? But, like, what was the first mountain bike that you've seen? And gone, what is that? Can I have it, please?

A (4:16)

Yeah. So when I started, it was cross country racing in high school with the NorCal league. And it wasn't really official sport, it was a club. So it was sort of this underground, grassroots, you know, thing. This was in the mid 2000s. And then over the years, I got into downhill riding. I went to Whistler in Canada a bunch with my friends and bike park riding. And then since then, there's been this, I guess, trend in the sport. You could call it enduro, which is sort of in between cross country, you know, like more fitness climbing and light, fast bikes. And then downhill is the much heavier, burly bikes that are made for steep terrain and rocks and routes and drops and jumps. So enduro is kind of in between, where it's a bike that is decent enough for climbing and descends really well, like just about as well as a downhill bike. So my favorite kind of riding kind of is. Is all of the above. So going out for a big exploratory ride in the forest and then hitting some fun downhills on the way down, most of the rides are kind of oriented around what downhills you want to do, cuz that's the fun part. But the whole thing is great.

C (5:16)

So I have to tell you, as a roadie that doubles in gravel, I prefer going uphill. I don't like going to stand hill, especially on like loose gravel. And you know, you go in like a 45k an hour and you're like, why? I mean, there's a perfectly good road about, you know, 500 yards from here. I'd rather do that. But what draws you to the sport and what'd you get out of it? What was it like for you to, to go through those steps of being a novice rider and actually then really enjoying and being at one with the bike?

A (5:44)

It's a lifelong thing, honestly. You know, initially it's really overwhelming to be on a mountain bike with all these controls. You're riding on unpredictable terrain, you're. You're looking at rocks or whatever, and you just don't know how the bike goes over that, I guess. But over time you just get a sense of what the bike is capable of and what you're capable of. And I would say, to answer your question, the biggest thing that pulled me in initially was this comfort or sorry, concept of comfort zone, where if you are always in your comfort zone on a bike, you're not going to learn much and you're not going to progress much and you might even get bored because you're staying within this comfort zone. That's quite limiting at first. And fear kind of keeps you from pushing the bike too fast or whatever. But someone early on told me you should be riding just past your comfort zone. But that applies to uphill for fitness, you know, like how much you can push yourself, but also downhill for how fast you're going. So if you're coming into a corner a little faster than you might normally, the only way to make it through is to lean the bike a little bit more than you normally do. So you kind of have to like learn how to adapt to this higher speed and it's really thrilling. It's not just about adrenaline, it's actually quite calming. Sometimes if I have a bit of anxiety or going through this or that. Going out for a bike ride is probably the most calming thing I could do if I have an hour or two. But yeah, overall that concept, comfort zone, pushing yourself and just getting used to it. And over time it just becomes second nature and intuition and instinct. And since I've been doing it long enough now I get to go out and Ride and just enjoy the trail and not even think about the controls or how to lean or anything like that. And the reality is, is that sometimes I do corners well and sometimes I don't because I'm trying to ride at a, a higher speed. I'm still just past that comfort zone. So there's a fun relationship with being comfortable, with being uncomfortable in a sense because you're literally hurling your body down trails.

C (7:34)

I mean, there's a parallel between what you just described and creativity. But staying with the bikes for one more minute is like, yes, it takes so long to actually just be at one and just forget whatever it is. Because I realized, you know, very early on that if you want to get a better at riding, you go to the gym, you do strength and conditioning, you actually learn how to do this stuff, figure out in which tutorials like how can you learn from people and realize what you might be not capable of? And then it just all of a sudden like those 10° sort of climbs will be like, oh, all of a sudden they, they feel smaller, like they feel more manageable and the downhills get more manageable. In fact, you know, you go, you go, actually you push yourself. Going like this is quite magical. So when you talk about like the comfort zones and if you don't lean enough into your bike and if you don't lean enough into the ride, you're not really learning. And I think this is the beautiful parallel between like how we do our creativity. Because if you want to be more creative, you're not going to be more creative with extra 10 hours of brushwork doing the same thing over and over again. Yes, you do your 10,000 hours, but it's the library, is the conversation, is the humanity, is the empathy. Like it's actually pushing yourself into the things that take you further. So in a way what you're describing, it's a beautiful parallel because just always find that there is a very strong sort of connection between what we do with our brains and how we process things and how we then sort of take it and do and use it as a creative process. So when it comes to your creative work, comfort zones and leaning into it. How would you say it in your view?

A (9:12)

Yeah, that's a great question. When I started freelancing, so I was out of art school and working as a motion designer in ad agencies and all that. If I got hit up for a job, I had this nervous anxiety of not knowing what the job was and could I do it. Because as a motion designer you're often expected to be able to do quite a wide range of things. And that would be kind of crippling fear sometimes. But I would say I'm just going to do it anyways. I'll figure it out as I go. And what I found over time was that every single time I was nervous about a project, if they wanted character animation and I didn't know how to character animate, let's say I would always figure out a way to make it happen and figure out what they need. And if there was a big enough concern that I couldn't do it, then I would raise that and we would figure it out together. Right. So there's this kind of, I think, general nature of like, okay, yeah, it's scary, but this will be a good experience. You might learn something from it. It's probably worth doing. And it's not as though you sign up and then you're just stuck to it. You're not locked in a roller coaster that you can't get out of. You have the ability to like control how it goes to a degree and figure it out as you go. And I think over time I ended up getting a really appreciation for being pushed and challenged in that way. If I get a comment from a client that, let's say I feel like might take away from what I love about it and I immediately go, oh man, this is going to be tough. Because it seems like they want something different than what I am currently really enjoying about it. But figuring out how to find that medium ground and still maintain what I love about it. And oftentimes in those challenging situations, loving it even more because I got what they needed and advanced the project in the way that they needed it. And then I get to be like, wow, that actually pushed me to go to a place I didn't really like, maybe want to at first. But the end result is more appreciative. So I, I think over time I've just gotten used to that feeling of discomfort because that comes up a lot in this kind of work throughout the creative process. It's not cozy. I think it should be challenging. And now I'm 37 and I can look back at roughly 15 year career now and just be really appreciative of where I started and where I'm currently at. And yeah, I guess these days I'm just really excited about where I'm going. Cause I don't know what that is. There's a lot of different routes I could be going down. And I'm not trying to define that or settle on anything. I'm. I'm kind of just excited to see what unfolds.

C (11:37)

As you can see from the excitement in my eyes, is everything you've been saying. I can see it from the parallel of downhill mountain biking. Will I be able to do it? You know, I will find a way. And this would be challenging. I'm appreciative of what I've got. Because when you put it in parallel, once again, is because we go a little bit more time to spend in our default network zone with our brain to daydream for a little bit. But then we've got the executive network mode where we validate, validate, validate. You know, like, is this the right choice when those two sides are fighting? Because we got more time to actually entertain it in a standstill? For example, you get a project briefing. You're like, will I be able to do it? Whereas when you're on the preface of like, over downhill, you're like, I'm doing it. I have to work it out. And I think this is the beautiful parallel where we head in, that when you don't have time to overthink it, you find yourself actually being able to do it, realizing, why did I overthink it in the first place? So if you have your career, let's put more color onto this. So you went to the California College of Arts, and you graduated and you started freelancing, you started creative work. So what was the draw for the creative work? Where did it come from? And what inspired you to pursuit is pop?

A (12:50)

Yeah, I'll go a little bit further back than college. My dad was a photographer, photojournalist at the San Francisco chronicle for roughly 30 years, so grew up around photography. And he also started a winery partway through that, too, which that's what he's solely doing now. He was a huge inspiration for me, not just for art and style and aesthetics. You know, he'd show me all the cool Martin Scorsese movies and stuff like that and talk about filmmaking from his perspective as an artist. And I think the biggest thing I gained from him was not necessarily that translation of aesthetic or style, but more just this teaching of intuition. So instead of telling me what something was, he often asked me what I thought. He knows the importance in, like, learning your own intuition. And he did a. I have to say, a beautiful job. I'm very grateful for that these days. And I think that ultimately led just to a lot of curiosity about how I can contribute to art and what I resonate with. And I've always Been drawn to so many different things. You know, I played a lot of video games as a kid. I like Legos. I stole my mom's post it notes and made little like stop motion stick figure animations and stuff like that. So I think ultimately what brought me into all this was just a curiosity. And motion design seems to be a great medium for combining so many different art forms and aesthetics. So it's this one place that I can experiment with all of it. And it's also time based, so it's not a static form, but it's, it's moving and it's something that plays over time. So there's this whole element with music and stuff too. So yeah, it's, it's one place where it all kind of just collides, I guess.

C (14:27)

That's amazing. So it was really interesting. I had a David Carson son, Luke, on a podcast a few episodes ago. And David Carson, being from that generation of your dad, obviously he's very big on intuition. It's like intuition kind of runs in that generation quite a lot because I'm gonna grind it to death, this element. But it's like there was Age of Innocence. It was easy to fail in private. It was easier to do things to discovery that were just personal. They were not necessarily shared with the world. And the intuition was almost like the only. So the compass, the only no star was like, hey, I feel this is right. And as you said, the intuition kind of give you the right curiosity about pursuing the things because senior directing in photojournalism, like you get to see the firsthand experience of how this works. And I mean, can you take photos without intuition? I don't think you can.

A (15:21)

I think it all comes down to emotional intelligence, which has been a big, I guess, subject I've been interested in the last couple years and the separation between rational intelligence, let's call it, and emotional intelligence and rational intelligence. Logic kind of goes towards that need for validation. It's related to the ego and a need to just feel like you're doing something right and you're checking metrics and past data to make sure that, okay, all the boxes are checked, this is, you know, all the data is right. But intuition and instinct comes from a completely different place. And it often completely defies logic and rational thinking. It really is just trusting and going with it and being present. Ultimately, I think if you're in the logic and rational place, a lot of that is in a different part of your mind. Looking at past data, maybe future prediction, whatever. But when you're Living an instinct and intuition. You are purely present with yourself and what you're doing. And I think any kind of art form, when you're. You're in that state, let's call it a flow state now, because I'm pretty sure that's what this is. It feels good. So you want to stay in it and you're not thinking about anything else. You know, I. I have that mountain biking. I'm in that present state. I can't think about anything else while I'm descending down a hill. Cause I'm. I am subjecting my body and my mind to this experience. And same thing with art, when it's at its prime. When I'm working on a project that's really got me going, I can't stop thinking about it. I think about when I go to bed and when I'm actually working on it, I'm very present with it, and I can't be distracted by anything else. I'm not thinking about bills or anxieties or anything. I'm just doing that. And so I think there's an attraction to that. For a person to be completely invested in what gives them that present state back. There's a really cool, reciprocal kind of relationship with it. And I think you have to train your intuition, too. It doesn't come naturally. You have to kind of own it and give back to it in a way.

C (17:13)

Yeah. When you talk about rational intelligence and the need for recognition, I'm rereading pretty much on a daily basis. Few pages from the Courage to Be Disliked is like one of my favorite books in the world. And there was literally a chapter the other day, which I reread again, that the need for recognition basically stifles our progress. Like when we feel like, you know, am I doing it right? Is someone giving me the external validation? Is this good enough? I know that that's what we are hardwired to feel like, because it's hardwired to search for. But it really, when you think about it, how much fun it takes out of the creativity, because you're thinking, am I doing it right? Am I writing the right word? Am I saying the right thing? Will people like this word? No, no, no. It doesn't matter. This happens in this moment. This is the best decision I can make right now. And nothing else matters. Because I think there'll be a lot of people thinking right now, like, hey, Ryan, I'm really jealous because you work and you don't think about your bills, or you can focus and you can lock in because as we get older, our life gets in the way and gets more complicated and noisier. I feel like there's a lot of time where you just have to be creative athlete. You don't need to sort of switch on and go, I've got 20 minutes. In two hours, I'm going to do that. I'm going to be ready for that sprint to do that. And then we go rest back in the washing machine of life, you know. So with your way of learning about emotional and rational intelligence, what was the way to actually getting closer to realizing that such things even exist?

A (18:41)

That's a good question. I think the place to start would be. A couple years ago, I was let go from a job that I had for four years and I was given very short notice. And that kind of shot me into a depression immediately. It was pretty tough. I started seeing a therapist for the first time in my life and I didn't know which way was up. I didn't know how to handle that. I also didn't understand why my reaction was so hard to understand. I usually am, I think, pretty good at assessing myself, but in that situation, I felt really lost. And so in that instance, I decided I wasn't going to work. Yeah, I did have another contract job after the one that I just mentioned I lost. But it was the first job I've ever, and only that I've ever quit because I knew I needed time. I couldn't process what I was going through and work this other job at the same time. So that was basically dedication to stillness, to just like not traveling and escaping and distracting myself or getting more dopamine from this or that, but just, I'm not going to work for a while. I'm just going to spend time with my partner and our dog and just kind of figure out what's right for me and what's authentic for me. Because the path I was on, that's not where I want to go anymore. So, like, what's my new path? What's my authentic path? And as you can imagine, that's a pretty hard question to answer that. It takes a lot of reflection. So that's really what caused me to really look deeply into intuition and instinct and my own emotional intelligence and just give it time and just see what direction it's pulling me, I guess you could say. We'll be back after a quick break.

B (20:15)

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C (21:02)

I love that you use the word stillness because stillness is such a hard thing to achieve. It throws you around. Especially like if you say, like you've been given a short notice from a job, basically that notice has thrown you around so much and you've decided to do the opposite of the obvious, you've decided to go for stillness. What was that like? Because obviously, yeah, you mentioned the word depression and you know, I've seen a therapist and finding help. But when you go in motion, you know, again, let's take it back to that downhill. You know, you go hard and fast and then you find yourself at the end, sometimes breaking at the last second and you find that stillness, obviously that's a physical reaction, but that's just a physical experience. But that experience, having it with work and creative work and obviously everything that it gives us. How did you find a stillness? Because that must be in a way satisfying, but it feels like a frightening concept.

A (21:56)

You know, at first it's. Stillness is really uncomfortable if you're used to a lot of stimulus. You know, like mountain biking is very stimulating, right? And I think a lot of us can be attracted to distractions, dopamine hits and other stimulus. But to actually dedicate to just stillness and not just taking some time without what usually is your vices, let's say. Yeah, it's uncomfortable at first cause you don't, you don't know what to think about. If you haven't spent time with your thoughts at length, then it can be pretty chaotic. First, there's kind of a noisy threshold to break through. So, you know, early in that time, I, I didn't know it was how do I recalibrate? What do I do? I had some credit card debt that was mounting and that was really anxiety inducing to have that looming while I decided to not work. And then this was also in, let's see, late 2023. So it was a period that many of us know is a pretty slow period in the creative industry. So a lot of things to be anxious about. But I knew that the only thing that mattered was my own mental state and I had to figure that out. So therapy went on for a few months while I could still afford it, but once I couldn't, it was tough to figure out like what was next. But shortly after that I started meditating and I think a lot really shifted after that because that was really like a method to learn how to reflect on your own inner state, if you will. And I don't know if there is any other way too. And what I talked about earlier, about just stillness and that uncomfortable noise and static when you meditate for the first time, it is very uncomfortable if you're not used to it because you're face to face with your monkey mind and how just rambunctious it is. So learning how to, to meditate, that was really foundational to the last couple years.

C (23:46)

What you said about meditation and especially the first few session. It's just they literally say in the book, like, hey, don't judge yourself, it's not going to go well. Don't judge yourself because you make yourself doubly uncomfortable because you want the meditation to solve a problem. I think you guys call it a band aid, we call it a plaster. Like I think you just basically you want the crack that you've got like just to put a band aid on it, like, hey look, I just did a couple of reps and it all be solved. And I remember my personal experience when I really needed a lot of help when I was meditating. I was like, obviously the noise and like literally the loud voices in my head going, it's too much. You know, there was no stillness. I was not happy with not spending time in my own thoughts, especially when I was looking for solution and I was judging myself, like, hey, this should be better. This should be like, I mean this should go well, like I should feel better. And you're thinking, well, you're not going to go to the gym and started picking up like a 25 kilo dumbbell going, I'm expecting to pick it up in one hit now and I'm expecting to do it well. You've never picked it up before, more or less. Like you've always been afraid to pick it up and now you have to pick it up and you haven't got those reps, you haven't built up the muscle. And you know, you said it beautifully, like spending time with your thoughts, it can sound really nice on paper, it can sound really nice to say it, but oh my God, how traumatic is that experience to do it for yourself, you know, especially for the first time? Because when you were saying this, I was thinking what was your creativity and what was the noise in your life almost A hideaway place from like, what did you use that noise to not deal with something that potentially needed dealing with.

A (25:22)

With that stillness, there wasn't much else to do except for go for bike rides. And initially that static, the monkey mind, the busyness, like you said, the voices in your head, they're pretty loud. But it's a threshold that you can get through if you sit through it. It's uncomfortable just the way we were talking about comfort earlier. But you find out that there's layers and it goes deeper and deeper. As deep as you want it to go, really. And ultimately meditation is not about reaching a mindless state. I think that's why what I used to think of it as when I was younger, and I just thought, I can't meditate because I don't know how to be mindless, Right? But really what it's all about is observing your thoughts and kind of being one layer back and just watching them happen. And the key thing is to not attach reactions to the thoughts that come up. And as best you can, it's really hard. But just observe them. And eventually, depending on the state you're in, the those thoughts will calm down a little bit. Then it'll get calmer and calmer, I would say. For the last year and a half, I've been meditating and I've had maybe two experiences of what we could call mindlessness. It was just pure presence with myself and really euphoric good feeling. But that's rare. That's really rare. And you shouldn't attach yourself to it. I know I had an attachment to getting back to that state because it felt so good. And even that was something that I'm like, I can't attach myself to that because then I build an expectation out of it. So sometimes I meditate and it just like going to the gym. It's like not that great of a workout. But other times I do, and it's surprisingly good. And the biggest takeaway, I think, out of all this stuff has been when you get into these states of your mind is calmer and you're present with yourself and all that occasionally. These random thoughts, these intuitions, instincts, revelations, whatever you want to call it, they'll pop up and you can grab onto it if you want. And that's where I've probably found the most truth, if we're going to call it truth seeking. Throughout all this internal work, it's been those random moments where you can't plan it. Just a thought pops up and it's rethinking Something in a way that I never thought before for creative projects, for personal relationships, for my own life and direction, all sorts of stuff, like everything. But it's those little moments that I think I keep doing this for. And it gives me a lot of gratitude for who I am and a lot of hope for where things are going.

C (27:43)

You mentioned that 2023 wasn't the best time for getting creative work. And yeah, it was quite a shocker that we thought 2023 was bad and 2024 showed up, but I think we are kind of past it. But how did you solve that situation? Because you talked about credit card bills, you know, anxiety around it, and that already can be quite paralyzing if you go for an anxiety that's attached to it, you know, it can be quite paralyzing to see like, what is my next move. But what was your next move to get out of this? Like, how did you turn things around?

A (28:13)

So back in 2023 initially entered a period of stillness like I mentioned, but eventually I knew I needed to kind of change what type of work I was doing. And I would say I'm still on this journey. But something that came up in 2024 was music industry work. So my emotion design skills all of a sudden translated to creating concert visuals. So backgrounds for, for artists, so tones. And I is an Australian pop artist. That was the first tour. So I art directed a good chunk of, of the content and then I animated, I believe, five songs. And that was the first time I've ever done work for the music industry. I've worked, I've animated to music before. But. But this was a different thing. It wasn't an ad, it was a full five minute song, often with footage of the artist dancing and then doing heavy, heavy after effects treatments and creating a whole narrative arc with visuals, if you will, that kind of match the beat and energy and feeling of the music that they're playing. And the way I looked at it was that that would amplify the experience at the show. So it's like not just the music, but the visuals are supporting that and just amplifying the energy that is already in the song. That was a really great shift compared to the corporate tech work that I had mostly done before. All of a sudden when I started to do my weird experiments because I tend to like try to go down these certain lanes, instead of someone asking me to tame it back because it's a little bit too much, they're asking me to turn it up and keep going. I found a lot of empowerment and, you know, liberation in that, I would say that's probably my favorite creative avenue is animating to music, especially if it's a good song. But, yeah, that. That was really fun. And then I did Kayfla after that. She's a hip hop punk artist. So it was quite different than pop, but very similar sort of approach. And they also wanted things to be kind of as. As cool and weird and loud as possible.

C (30:07)

Got a question for you, which I think is a question of many people listening to this right now. How did you find that work? How did you go from tech incorporate into working with pop artists and hip hop punk?

A (30:19)

Yeah, it actually wasn't through design. It was through someone I met in cycling in Santa Cruz. His name's Aaron, and he owns a shop called Visual Endeavors. And he has done a lot of music industry work and event work. But, yeah, he hit me up and said he'd love to bring me in on it. And even though I was fresh and had never worked in that industry before, and, you know, there's some nuances to figure out with the world I was used to and the world that is quite different, but still my core skills and artistry and all that still applied. So it was very fun to do it my way, if you will. And he gave me a lot of autonomy.

C (30:53)

Did you come to this project with a question, will I be able to do it?

A (30:58)

I was excited. I was just, like, enthusiastic about that because music has been such a big part of my life and definitely influences a lot of my, I would say, philosophies as an artist, especially from hip hop. Yeah, I. I just came into it with excitement and thankfully no anxiety, I think.

C (31:15)

Yeah, when you think about it, like, how many people in that industry come across confident only to find out that without teetering on anxiety at any moment, like, it's. There's so much attached to it because ultimately the right people do it for the expression of their soul. They want to pursue this. And I've been thinking about it as I'm writing, you know, parts of this book about, you know, daring creativity and how we dare forever, like, how we pursue the thing and how we go on to the element of what could be. You know, not what it is, but what could be and what could it be for me, and how can I change this and what can I pursue and how I can find things. And as I'm writing the parts where it's the dedication and sort of the author's note, and we lost a great friend called Rudio Palooza, who Was incredibly talented artist. And it was always pushing into another way of what could be, what could be, what could be. You know, I had a friend home back in Czech Republic who was a musician who never gave up making music. It was like, what could be, what could be, what could be? Until he made it through the sort of national fame and then only enjoyed it for a few years because, you know, there were bad news that on the other side. But what I love about those two stories, which sadly ended up way too early, that those guys never stopped exploring, never stop exploring and kind of looking at what could be, because that's the best sort of possibility. Like, and this is a true testament to relationship having someone from biking, being a contact and making it happen again. It proves that most of these things, you know, don't happen on the end of a cold call or cold email or, I don't know, sort of blind outbound. Because it happens when you actually know people, when. When you can trust them and what you can do in that sort of way. So it's great to know that things sort of started sort of turning around and going into a proper perspective. But I would like to believe that around the same time you also started working with Ben Talent on actual coaching. And the reason why I want to talk about it, I want to give a shout out to Ben, obviously, and to both of you have already do together because you've taken an active step to change your reality. In a way, you've actually invited someone else's perspective into your process, into your life. And I think as a testament to what Ben does, tell me what was it like to change what you do through someone else's help?

A (33:29)

Initially, just a listener of Ben's podcast, like yours, and I think this is about a year and a half ago, he said that he was interested in getting in coaching. He said this on the podcast and that he was gonna start with pit stop sessions. So a single four hour session where you just deep dive into everything in your life that's related to your creative condition, as he puts it. So you talk about family, friends, your childhood, creativity, obviously what you do for a job. Right. But you kind of dive into the deep end with him. And since I was, I was in a scarcity mode for, you know, this time, and I couldn't afford therapy and he was doing these free pilot sessions with this podcast. So I must have messaged him at least a dozen times because I knew how. How beneficial something like that would be for me and knew just from listening to his podcast how empathetic he was so he just seemed like such a good person for this kind of thing. So we did that four hour session and he gave me an analysis back. It was like 12 pages. And reading that from his perspective because we didn't really know each other at the time, getting his perspective on who I was and the empowerment within that and really unexpected things. Like, I think my favorite detail that I'll share is in one point in the analysis he said I was personable. And another point he said I was rambunctious. And I just really like that contradiction of being rambunctious and personable. And I would never have labeled myself that way. But hearing that from Ben, I was like, I like that. Like I'm down to own that, you know, getting that extra perspective on you. Since that pit stop, Ben and I have been doing bi weekly coaching sessions for the last year and some months and it's been massive. It's been a huge, huge part of my own transformation is just checking in with him. And some of my favorite sessions started out with, I don't even know what I'm going to talk about with him. What are we going to bring up? And it's almost like creative therapy. Like we kind of just talk about whatever comes to mind related to your own creative condition. And he shares bits about him. So it's not just me talking, but that's coaching has been a massive, massive part of the last couple years because I think all these efforts that I've had around meditation and his coaching and everything else that feels relevant, it's all about figuring out my own authenticity and really discovering what that is. And I think sometimes it's hard to do that yourself. You need a second perspective. And I can't unload this much on my partner or a friend. Like, I think it has to be some sort of coaching relationship where you're getting that insight regularly and you're not, you know, you're not going to like overburden their ears.

C (36:05)

I think it's so important that this kind of work can be done, that you do this kind of work and that how much actually benefit is provided for you. What I like about what you just said and have an experience in therapy with different types of people. Some are meticulous note takers and go, okay, so you told me this, let's go there. And they, they literally build that line bit by bit. They, they start at the beginning and then you get to the end. And then I remember having a different experience when someone said like, hey, what do you want to talk about? And I'm thinking, I've been here twice before. Where's your notes? And then you realize, you know what? Let it loose. Let it loose. And let's see where you get to. Because you think, I've got nothing to talk about. And within 10 minutes, you're in tears because you're like, there's a lot of noise to unpack. There's a lot of residue from around the corner to unpick. Like, so I think it's interesting how you work with Ben and how you keep it loose, because would you say that drive to work with Ben was because you felt that you already established a relationship through his voice and what he was sharing on the podcast? Because there must be the willingness to make that first step. Like, we can listen to everyone for forever, but ultimately, you really need to want to make a change in your life because a lot of people really accept that the change they want equals unknown. Like, I don't know what. What did my entail? I might feel uncomfortable. Therefore, I'd rather stick with my current suffering and complain about lack of change. But as you said, you couldn't really talk to your partner about this sort of stuff, like, oh, I've offload so much, or your friends. So what was that feeling that you said that you felt like, okay, now is the moment where I'm gonna send Ben dozens of messages and see if he can protect me on.

A (37:50)

I think when I recognized the potential in what the coaching could be like, because I mentioned therapy before, but something I was also searching for at the time was, like, creative therapy. I was like, does this exist? I googled around a lot and didn't quite find it. I think there's therapists out there that might specialize in it, but nothing locally or even over. Some kind of zoom calls, like, seemed to really pop up and resonate. But it just so happened to be the podcast I was listening to and enjoying. And I also should mention that I saw Ben interview Stefan at off in. I think that was 20, 24. I was front row. And I was really excited to watch that and got really into Ben as a podcaster interviewer after that because he asked so many great questions. So I was already sort of like, this guy is really bright and interesting and empathetic, and he really leads with his heart. Yeah. When you started talking about the coaching, it was kind of like all the dots sort of just connected. And I'm. I knew it would be really beneficial to me, and I'm so glad it worked out because We've had a really good thing going for, yeah, over a year now.

C (38:54)

This is, I think, the best verbal review of Ben services that could have achieved. Because I've got plenty of time for Ben. I speak to him a lot and I'm big fan of what he does. I think when I speak to him, especially in a podcast setting, if it's on my podcast, his podcast, I find him frighteningly intelligent and clever and emotionally astute, which is, I think, rare in our industry. I mean, we have got some really clever, intelligent people, but not in that Venn diagram of where Ben stands in the middle to present it in his own way and kind of look into how he can take that knowledge, make it more accessible and also more applicable to people like yourself by making sure that we do move on in as a creative industry and understand ourselves as humans. Because as you mentioned, you know, there was no such thing as a creative therapy in a way that it would be even anywhere to be found. So this is, I think, what he's. What Ben's doing. I think it's fantastic. And I think I wanted to talk about it because I'm a big fan of what he does and, you know, it's just like to hear that firsthand. I hope that he gets more phone calls and more messages from people like yourself and people who really want to make that change in their creative careers. Because the reason why I wanted to ask about it, because, yeah, in the concept of change, you know, how much do you get someone to understand that the change can actually provide some value? Because you mentioned, you know, in your previous answers that you wanted to find stillness after something so complicated and something so almost earth shaking and groundbreaking. You wanted to find stillness because you wanted to make sense of things. And would you say that comes with maturity or necessity or curiosity? Like, why would we. I think I'm potentially still trying to find a now moment. Like, you know, like, this is it. Like, I want to change. I don't want this to be anymore.

A (40:46)

I would call that a leap of faith moment where you, your intuition, your instinct overrides irrational thinking. And even if it feels dangerous and scary and uncertain, something in, you know, is you have to do it anyway. Even if you fail, you still have to do it. And for me, yeah, initially with that stillness, that was the bigger leap of faith moment because I was saying no to security in a time where I needed it. And then my partner and I went into a period of scarcity for about a year after, and that was really hard. We were figuring out Rent and groceries every single week and just barely scraping by. And at some point through that, work started to pick up. The work I had was sporadic just because of the slow period in our industry, but eventually things kind of picked up.

C (41:30)

You've answered it like you were talking about leap of faith, but I think what you can do, I think you can talk about a scarcity and how things change, because I think that kind of works.

A (41:38)

Yeah. So that initial leap of faith moment is, is it's a big trusting point in yourself that you can figure it out, you just have to commit to it. And I don't know how else to describe that other than it just being a gut feeling. You asked earlier if it was maturity or curiosity. I think maturity might come out of it as a result, but I don't think maturity feeds it initially. I think it's curiosity and commitment and you don't have to fully understand it and you can't, you just kind of have to follow that. So, yeah, in that time of scarcity, I think you, you get into like a more alert state when you're in scarcity, when you're a comfort zone, you're, you don't have to worry about much, but, but when you do have to worry about things because it'll slip by or slip away from you if you don't stay conscious of it. It keeps you in this like alert kind of state, which can be really overwhelming for a while. But, but I think if you balance that well and make sure you're giving yourself rest and you're, you're really treating yourself well and giving yourself the things you need unapologetically and not feeling like you have to throw yourself into the fire in order to prove yourself to, I don't know, anyone or yourself. I think it's important to know when to rest and recover as well as work.

C (42:57)

And I believe it's called scarcity and what you've learned from scarcity, because I believe everyone should go through it at some point or have a moment of scarcity, because sometimes it's economically driven, sometimes it's personally driven, sometimes you want to be in the room with somebody else and you change how we do things. That's, you know, it could be seen by some as self sabotage, like, hey, you had a good and now you want to do this. But what you were describing, it makes perfect sense because scarcity is hunger. You know, like it's. The tide is out. The tide is out. And we tell ourselves in the western world that the tide, the tide will never come Back in. Well, we know that the tide comes back in, you know, and I think that sort of paralyzing state of scarcity could be like, oh shit, what goes on. But would you say it's giving you so much clarity of where you want it to be and what you wanted to do? Because you don't necessarily have too much noise in your world, even though that a creepy instead of anxiety or insecurity can be coming in. But ultimately it takes you somewhere completely new with a fresh pair of eyes, right?

A (44:00)

Yeah, absolutely. I get really excited about that sort of unknown, like, what's going to happen when this unfurls in the natural way that it wants to. What, what path will you lead down if you just naturally follow all those individual moments of curiosity? I think that can apply to like a project you're working on and a creative endeavor as well as like different times in your life where you just follow these little bits of curiosity and just see where they lead. I think you learn more about yourself and what's authentic to you. Every time you do that right, you're gonna do it wrong sometimes, and that's part of the process. I don't think it would be a worthwhile endeavor if every curiosity was kind of like guaranteed building up to your authentic life. But yeah, it's about the risk and all that. You learn just as much from, if not more from these little failures, mistakes and fumbles than you do with the successes. And when you do hit some curiosity that kind of quickly leads into some sort of validation and all that, it's like striking gold. I guess it's like, oh, I found one, you know. But that feeling that comes up when you find that it's only going to come up if it's rare. I think you learn more about your internal compass the more you kind of test that. It's almost like you're blindfolded in the dark and you just kind of got to feel around and, and find your way.

C (45:16)

I'm looking at one of my notes from earlier and it says truth seeking. And everything you're describing seems to me like a truth seeking. It's not necessarily true seeking. And you've embarked on the mission to find the truth. When we are on our mission and it happens that it happens to be truth seeking, it's almost as you say, it's from point of curiosity is liberating because you realize sometimes there's an uncomfortable truth and sometimes there's actually truth, which is the reality of like, this is how the world works. Because if you cover These bases, things become so much more rewarding and more throughout rates of years. Like, more rewarding, more you appreciate more life or appreciate what we've been given. Because in that noisy world, in the corporate world and the world of tank, you know, like, it's frenetic, it's too much and bored of everything. It's too much. When you realize actually, you know what, there's more stillness to it, there's more silence to it, there's more actually enjoyment realize, oh, why was I doing it any way differently before? Because this is what it's all about. So with the work that obviously the work's come back in, you're working with Ben, how do you feel as a creative human, as a creative and artist these days? Like, how does your work come across? How do you express yourself? And have you found more comfort and easiness in the way of doing things? Because you said at the beginning, sometimes you're both thinking in the past, like, will I be able to do it? Do you approach work differently now?

A (46:40)

Yeah, these days, the biggest thing I'm focusing on is my own personal branding. That's what Ben and I have been mostly focusing on for, I don't know, many months now. And yeah, through that, that's really all I'm working on in personal work these days, is essentially a personal branding project. And, you know, I could pick a squarespace template or something like that and pick a nice clean sans serif font and call it a portfolio. But I really wanted to treat this like, how do I really dig deep and figure out what is authentic to me? I have a weird, unique niche as a designer and animator. So how do I communicate that and what I'm interested in? Like, I love music. Music is a big influence on me. So how does that incorporate into branding? And a big thing we've been working on is basically stylized handwriting, something I've noticed, I enjoy doing. I have this classic technique that I'll spill right now on Procreate, where if you draw a letter form, just basic boxy shape and you hold it down, Procreate lets you edit the anchor points of that letter form. And it creates a really straight, strong, you know, the right angles and all that. But if you do that with like the right brush and you, you know, make for me an R, A, Y, an A and N, then I have my name in the stylized way. And I've just been like gravitated towards doing that for years now. And this kind of like personal voice has come out of that in a way where that kind of represents my own branding in this messy yet refined almost like graffiti handwriting. But it's, it's kind of a lot of things in one. But these days I'm actually trying different materials. So I recently got sumi ink brushes and pastels and chalk and giant mop brush marker pens. And I'm basically just going to go on a fool like probably for the rest of the week figuring out different hand done letter forms and not to be like super refined because I'm not a lettering artist, but leaving it kind of messy and authentic and vulnerable in a way. Like I want that feeling and tone to come across. So the end goal is that my website will be mostly comprised of this sort of can done lettering. And if I zoom out, it's kind of weird that a motion designer would do that for their website. It's so different. But I just know that all of this is related to whatever my core creative authentic self is. And it feels really good to be putting in letter forms that I'm making and I'm not trying to make too clean and nice and smooth, but letting it be sort of rough around the edges.

C (49:08)

What you're describing reminds me of so many recent conversations with I guess about the fact like how many people came through with Flash and Flash was such a wild west of like, hey, anything goes. Do you want to see some clever shit here it goes as you're talking about it. And I think now I can join the dots about Ben talking about the fact like where have all the creative websites gone? Because some of the really basic ones obviously put a lot of focus on incredible hyper real estate photography. And some of the projects are just delicious. You know, it's just, it's all incredible. But we've homogenized lots of things. We've homogenized like the easiness and I think we've got for a while to the point of does the website fucking matter anymore? Like, do you need a website? Of course. How quickly people realize they'll be on a borrowed land, you know, like on the Instagram or whatever and wherever else, you know, especially with all of the other people fighting for algorithm, you know, attention. Then it all goes come back to the reality of our other true. Yeah, not truth seeking of actually where, where can you own your traffic? And it goes back to the websites and how do you present it? Because you could cast your mind back to early 2000s where Flash was just where people were running right with Flash and it was. No one cared if that was right or wrong because that was could be anything. You know, we go back to, you know, it's. It's not what it is, it's what it can be. And I think going back to that mindset, it's only going to create something that's going to stand out so much because it's so easy to be boring. It's so easy to be easy. It's so easy to be sans serif. And I had a creative brief for a brand rebrand and they've sent me all the links in the brief of the websites they like. And it's a chunky sans serif on a black background white type. It's like, this all looks nice. I don't think this company should play it crazy, but it only shows, like, how is the mutation of the idea that just goes and just permeates. What if the right sort of mathematical way, of biological way of saying, like, oh, look, that it sort of multiplies for like 1 becomes 12 and 12 becomes 24, and it just goes. And more and more. I think the word is permeates. Maybe not, but it's the fact that what there is a more of and what's easily to copy, people will do it, but the thing that's different will stand out. So I'm excited to see where you. Where you're gonna know what you're gonna achieve with this. With the website, is the primary belief objective to create just a home for yourself that just feels your own, or is it just a sort of nice to have, or are you going to use it as a business tool, per se?

A (51:40)

Kind of all the above. I think initially it's an exercise for me to create something that's a reflection of who I am and it's a method for uncovering what that is. And the way that we've been talking about how a process can help you find out what something is, I am definitely finding out what my branding is, and I think that helps me understand what my best offering is and how to talk about it. And in another way, it's also hopefully going to be directing towards business. I would love to work with smaller companies that could maybe have a project that one motion designer would be a good fit for, whether I'm designing assets or just animating them or both. I think being able to contact a company that makes products that I already like and say, hey, you make some cool stuff. I like what you guys do. Do you think, is there anything else I could do to like to help you guys out? Even if it's just one little cool animation to post on Instagram. So I think having a place to send people to, to learn about who I am is, is really essential. But yeah, you know, the biggest challenge, the website isn't really picking the work to show I already know what that is. It's, it's all the writing that goes with it. Because I'm not much of a writer, even though I have discovered in the last year that I really like creative writing. It's really challenging to sum yourself up and to figure out who your audience is and how to advertise that to and speak to them and make it in digestible, easy to understand way that gets them excited about working with you.

C (53:10)

It goes back to the reps. If you don't write about yourself all the time, you're going to find it complicated. But it's just like, how do you do it over and over and over again? And I use it with some of my book clients as a consulting editor. I just, I get them to record stuff, I interview them, you know, just, I write some of my book parts by pacing around a kitchen with one of my AirPods. And I just like, I'm, I'm just saying it, I'm just literally like getting it out there because we can easily find a point which makes us freeze, you know, like, oh, I want to write this. And then you, you go into that executive network and you go like, it needs to be good. Whereas your default network be like, hey, let's write whatever. You know, this is how I feel about life. And the, the monkey was like, well, let's validate this. Let's do like, let's make sure this is right or not. I mean, I think we are very lucky that we can switch to tools, we can switch to the techniques and go like, hey, what could it be? Because this is how it is. What could it be? I like where you go with this and I like, have you shared with me, have you gone through some difficult periods of your life and how you search for help? Have you taken up the offers, have you made change in your life that ultimately get you to where you are today and seem happy in a way where you're moving where he's heading? And I think very much, I think finding the comfort in the decision that asking for help was potentially one of the best things you can ever done. So thanks for talking to me today and sharing that with me because I think it's very important that we have so much honesty and so much transparency in what we do and sharing that with people because it's easy to think that some of the stuff is only for other people. So all the stuff is only for maybe for privileged people, but ultimately it's for those who ask for help, you know, put their hand up and say, hey, look, here I am. What can we do?

A (54:51)

Thank you Radha, and it's been great talking to you. And I also just want to say that I think more than anything, something I've uncovered over this past couple years is the core of why I do this stuff is to contribute to culture. And when it comes to making the music stuff for the concert visuals, it felt like there was a really cool observation of just seeing people enjoy a concert with my animations in the background, knowing that I had something to do with that. There's going to be many other ways that I can contribute to culture in the future, but I think right now opening up about my own vulnerability and what I've been through and what I've learned as a result, if that helps just one or a couple people get through whatever they're going through, whatever burnout, anxiety, depression, whatever, I think more of us need to be open about talking about this on a public stage and it only helps. So if I saw someone like this talking a couple years ago and vulnerable about their situation, I know that would have helped me get through what I was going through at the time.

C (55:50)

So love it. Brian, thank you so much for talking to me today. I found so much value in this and as you said, if someone's listening to this and is in a situation where you were a few years ago or feel similar in a similar way, it can feel scary to ask for help. But ultimately with what you said, having that greater vision and saying how can you contribute to culture? How can you actually get other people to experience your work and then get something out of this? It's ultimately very invaluable. So I'm excited to see what happens next for you and hope to see you soon.

A (56:21)

Thanks Radhum.

B (56:32)

Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see.

C (56:53)

You on the next episode.

B (57:16)

If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever.

C (57:37)

You are and whatever you do.

B (57:39)

To get 10% of your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the Code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.