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- [00:02]
Radim Malinj
Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provides them with value. So thank you for being here and for helping out. Thank you.
- [00:38]
Tim Thompson
If you believe in talent and all you are basing your career on is your raw talent, then AI is very much a scary thing. And you should be afraid because that skill that you have that you're really talented at is a skill that can be replaced and will be. If it wasn't for AI, it'd just be a younger generation with a faster filter that will take care of it for you. If you have a career based in creativity, then there's no reason to be afraid because your creative mind will always come up with something. And that ability, that's what the creative mind is doing. You just have to enter that space for the muse to show up. You have to know what that's like, and you have to use that space to find the future, project that future, and then achieve it.
- [01:32]
Radim Malinj
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast. A show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections, actions and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Marinech. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today, I'm talking with Tim Thompson, Founder and chief revolution Thinker at Rev Think. Tim helps creative entrepreneurs thrive in business life and career. His community of 700 plus business owners represents an industry evolution towards openness, collaboration and other peopleness. He shares with me his extraordinary journey from knocking on Hollywood doors without a CV to become the world's leading consultant for creative entrepreneurs. In our conversation, we also talked about his superpower, shame, resilience and the ability to enable others creative success. We discussed his spiritual awakening that led him to develop his creative must win philosophy and the understanding that the creative muse lives in the same brain space as fight or flight responses. It's my pleasure to introduce Tim Thompson. Hey Tim, welcome to the show.
- [03:20]
Tim Thompson
Hey Ram. Thanks for having me. This is fun.
- [03:23]
Radim Malinj
Oh, I mean, I always say I'm excited about these things, Vijayam. But yeah, I've been really looking forward to talking to you today on my new season called Daring Creativity. And what you do, how you do it and who you do it with, I think in my opinion personifies that philosophy. So for those who may not heard of Tim Thompson and rethinking, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:47]
Tim Thompson
Well, again, thanks for having me. This is really great and I agree with you. I think the industry needs to be Daring Creativity. There is very bold things happening. My name is Tim Thompson. I'm actually the founder and chief Revolution Thinker at revthink. We're the world's leading consultancy for creative entrepreneurs. So I work a lot with creative people with a creative mindset and have this desire, who had this desire to take on the world and the challenges. I often feel like some of the world class creative people that you and I know, they have something stuck inside of them. They have a creative energy stuck inside of them and it has to come out. So to give them permission, give them encouragement like your books do and your webinars do and what we do as a consultant is a actually true purpose and a true calling. So I appreciate sharing this space with you.
- [04:44]
Radim Malinj
Thank you, Tim. I mean I'm in a made a first note and it said you said you are chief Revolution Thinker. That's the first time I've ever had this. So how does one become a chief Revolution Thinker?
- [04:57]
Tim Thompson
So the full name of my company is Revolution Thinking and Revolution is a time of change or a purpose. Changing a purpose or could just be revolution, could just be to turn around. Honestly, to go 180 and thinking obviously is like consulting or strategy part of it. So as a company, Rev Think or Revolution Thinking is a primary principle that we have in the thought process. But I also shortened the name to Rev Think because I am actually ordained minister. So I'm also a reverend. So to get the rev next to the think is kind of fun. So just a slight nod to who I am, part of my past and actually some of my journey. The people I serve are the people that I love and these are the creative entrepreneurs. So I feel very called to this purpose.
- [05:42]
Radim Malinj
I want to take it a few steps back. So where did you grow up? When did you first become aware of creativity?
- [05:49]
Tim Thompson
Oh man. You know, I grew up in Denver for the most part. My family was kind of a sports family and so I did a lot of sports, but I actually liked performing. I actually, when my family was watching sports, I was watching Entertainment Tonight. Or this is Hollywood, or whatever the specials were on Saturday afternoons. Talking, talking about filmmaking. Early on I thought I wanted to be a comedian because it seemed like a very easy way to get into the industry. I didn't need anybody else's help. I could just be a funny guy or whatever. So this is young. I mean, my mom tells me stories of just when I was just a young child and all these ideas I had of how I was going to break into the entertainment industry. So. And I never turned back. I never saw anything different funny. I actually went to college in the San Francisco Bay area. And quite literally at the end of our school's campus, at the end of our street, is Cisco, the now very well known multi trillion dollar corporation. At the time, it was early 90s and I'd never heard of it. And one of the nuns at my school, I went to the Catholic school, encouraged me to go get a job interview at Cisco. And I. Her name was Sister rj and I was like, sister, I'm going to Hollywood. I've never even heard of Cisco. Why would I be anywhere near that stuff? And of course, like the Silicon Valley just blew up around everybody that I knew that stayed behind. And here I was moving on to Hollywood to do something that I was called and had purpose to do. The sad thing is that the Hollywood I fell in love with was way gone before I showed up. So when I hit Hollywood, the first job I had actually was on the American Music Awards. It was a, you know, a Dick Clark production. And it was a live big event. And that same crew right after that went on to the Oscars. So I. My first job, American Music Awards, second job, the Oscars. So I was in the middle of Hollywood, big Hollywood scene in the mid-90s. Super great, really loved it. But the evolving Hollywood that was taking place was this digital revolution. And luckily I got pulled into that really early on and that started my career.
- [07:54]
Radim Malinj
You said that Hollywood that you went for was already way gone. What was that sort of sentimental idea that you can potentially be part of? What did you miss about the old Hollywood?
- [08:04]
Tim Thompson
I didn't even realize how much nostalgia I had for it until like YouTube algorithms started feeding me Johnny Carson episodes. And to watch Johnny Carson interview these stars from the 70s and 80s, Michael J. Fox or Burt Reynolds or whatever, and they're just talking about very simple. Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra are being interviewed him. And it's very simple Hollywood. These guys live in Palm Springs, they go play Vegas, they play golf together. You know, there's just basically Fame and fortune is built into this thing. And if you make it and you're part of Hollywood. And the outputs were very simple. Film, radio, tv, music. Like there was not crazy channels and there's a lot of gatekeeping, so you had to like break through. But once you broke through, it was obvious who the celebrity was. You know, since the 90s, the digital revolution really has taken over and we've just made more and more channels. Celebrity is. Who even knows who's famous anymore? I often call it fake famous, but most people think they are is just known influencers, but they're not actually achieving something. And it's harder to understand the zeitgeist, where the zeitgeist is or where it goes. So luckily in my career I've touched the zeitgeist three times. It's been pretty amazing to be in and around the zeitgeist to know that I played a role in it. It's pretty great. But it's not, you know, it's by no means the glamorous Hollywood that you can see on those old TV shows.
- [09:38]
Radim Malinj
So from someone who's from sports, family from Denver, who definitely wants to go with the comedy, which I wanted to do myself, I'm not sure how many childhood issues is there, how you want to be liked because you can make people laugh. But we'll leave that alone for a minute because I want to know about your role because obviously you said you went with the team to work on Oscars. What is your role? What do you do for them?
- [09:59]
Tim Thompson
So, you know, I'll say one of my superpowers, as my wife likes to call it, is that I'm shame resilient. So I could put myself out there and I can do things knowing that I will achieve that goal and I don't hold back or what I've learned now is this term permission granted. Like, hey, I can achieve. Permission granted. Go achieve it. Back when I got started, it wasn't. I didn't have all of those terminologies. I quite literally and simply parked my car in Burbank, California and I went door to door. I started NBC Studios walk from NBC up to Disney, which is probably a mile of a walk. And there are studios and production companies all along Burbank Boulevard. And I just. Anything that said production, I rang the doorbell or opened the door and I applied and walked in. I had no resume on me at all. When I got to the. Coming back towards NBC, one of the last places I went was Dick Clark Productions and Dick Clark. If you don't know, it was a radio personality and television personality in 80s, 70s, 80s, 90s or whatever. And he did really big shows, and one of them was the American Music Awards. He did the. He. The Golden Globes Isn't is probably his best known show. And he did some other tribute shows to actors, what have you. So I walked in the front door with no resume. Told the receptionist, just asked her, hey, I'm looking for a job. Is there any jobs available? And she told me, just leave your resume. And I said, I don't have a resume. Didn't bring one. And she looked at me like I was an idiot. She's like, you didn't bring a resume? I'm like, I didn't. I just looking for a job. And she goes, well, hold on, I'll just get Rob for you. And here comes this guy Rob from the back. And Rob is the guy that hires people. And because I didn't have a resume, I talked face to face with the guy hiring. I told him that I'm interested in it. I was a theater major, I could do whatever job he has for me. And he says, great, you can start in the mailroom tomorrow. And I did start the next day. 50 bucks a day. Worked in the mailroom. And from that I just found the first lead, which was, I dropped off a box in someone's office, and I approached this gentleman. This is actually a pretty funny story, and I'll try to keep it simple, but I was reading this book by George Burns called Saganite Gracie. And there's a scene in the book where George walks into someone's office, and his agent was on the phone. And the agent says, maybe next time, and hangs up. And George says to his agent, whatever that job is, you can book me. And his agent says, george, I can't book you on that job. It's an animal act. He goes, I have an animal act. Book me on that job. Apparently, George Burns did the same show he always does. He just had a dog on stage with him when he did it. He didn't change the show at all. So as I walked into this guy's office, his name was Brad Bishop. And Brad was on the phone with somebody, says, maybe next time. And he hangs up the phone. And I think, I know this scene. And I said to him, I can do that job, whatever it is. And Brad looks at me like, and who are you? I was like, my name is Tim. I'm from the mailroom, and whatever that job is, I could do it. And Brad was hiring for the American Music Award. So from that moment, he said, okay, great, you can work on the show. And the next thing I know is I was there at the Shrine Auditorium. I was working on the show, and it was fun. It was hosted by Will Smith, Meat loaf and Reba McIntyre. And it was the year they introduced this upcoming singer known as Snoop Dogg. So Tupac Shakur and Dr. Dre were at the show. Stevie Wonder performed a private event for us. And it was an incredible Hollywood moment all in all. And I, as I look back now, you know, I think it's funny where Will Smith is the one that's on the outs and Snoop Dogg's the one that's more famous than him. But at that time, they were afraid of Snoop Dogg. They were censoring him. And Will Smith was the good guy. So just a great little, like, boost to my career. And that shame resilience has paid off. Just being bold, getting myself out there and asking for permission, you know?
- [14:04]
Radim Malinj
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. I absolutely love that story. Absolutely love it. I think, I mean, I think it's a story of that time, isn't it? Like, I don't think it would get too far these days. Like, you want a job? Yeah. Have you got a cv? No. Okay. Yeah, that's not going to happen. I did write down permission granted and shame resilience because there's so much to unpack. So much to unpack. And I just feel like that's, of course, like, there's so much to unpack with the awards show, being in a room with Tupac and all of the other guys.
- [15:19]
Tim Thompson
So many stories to be.
- [15:20]
Radim Malinj
I mean, it's incredible, but I'm just trying to think, like, did you know what you actually wanted to do? Were you just happy to be working in Hollywood? Like, were you just happy? Because obviously knocking door to door without any idea of what you could be doing or what you wanted to be doing, but having unwillingness just to knock on the door and say, like, hey, here I am. Hire Me like, where is this all taking you? Because I know mostly there. There is a lot of unlike the time then now we know what we want to do. Like most people I've ever interviewed on the show be like, I didn't know graphic design existed. I didn't know this existed. Oh, my parents told me I should be doing this. Whereas this is just like, this is a blank canvas. You're in a destination where you want to be like a Trojan horse. Like I'm behind the enemy lines. No. Where can I go next? Oh, actually from mail room to the office. So I'm trying to find out your motivation. What was the main draw? Just the shows, the buzz, Being there, being in production.
- [16:16]
Tim Thompson
What was that so hard to reconcile in 2025? Whatever. What it was like 30 years ago or even just say 40 years ago when I was trying to decide how this would even work. I didn't know what to do. I knew I wanted to be in entertainment industry. I was a theater major, so I knew acting, directing and stage prep or whatever, right. So like the physical attributes of it and because in theater you just learned all of it. So I knew I had hands on skill to do it. And just being naive to me there are only like actors and directors. I mean, what else is there in Hollywood, right? So I was smart enough to ask questions, to know that there was greater opportunity. No one ever told me what a producer was at all. But my skill seemed to match being a producer than not. I have a good friend that once told me when he was deciding between directing and producing, he basically looked it up in the dictionary and you know, a director gives direction, but a producer produces the product. So he'd like to point out a director gets best director, but best picture goes to the producer, like the whole picture. And I'm like, yeah, that's the big piece. The overall vision is the piece I can hold onto. The creative gift. I'm probably average, so if I try to do something more of like directing or acting, most likely I would not have seen the success. But when it comes to producing, you really do have another way of like breaking the creative pieces and putting them back together. It's like a puzzle piece, part of it. And to compliment or to find other creative people to work alongside is what you're doing. It's actually finding other magic and making something big out of it. So I really love that role. I really love the collaboration role. I love coming alongside other people, giving them permission, boosting them up and then where the problems are, solve those problems. To keep the machine moving forward. That's a better gift, a better fitting of my gift. But I didn't know that first of all. I mean, I just simply jumped into it. And in a very odd way, I knew Microsoft Excel when other people didn't. I mean, quite literally, my. The job I got offered on the Oscars was. Is because I was sitting behind somebody who was building the budget for the Oscars and she didn't know how to use this spreadsheet. And I did. So I asked her, do you want me to write make that for you? And as I built out the entire budget, she said, okay, now you're hired. You're going out to the. Going to the Oscars with me. And actually ended up with the associate producer where we did all the hiring, budget negotiations, filming. And we were on, you know, a lot of people were on the show for six weeks. We were on the show for six months because we were doing the big picture stuff, the overall concept of what it was. And I really just fell in love with that. It was great and perfect for me. So I stuck with it.
- [19:13]
Radim Malinj
Little did you know that that would be very much the stepping stones of your career because what you do now very much is the follow on from there, just kind of working behind the scenes and enabling all of this to go on.
- [19:27]
Tim Thompson
Well, even greater, like what happened with the digital revolution was somebody had to figure out the pieces again. And so going from the Oscars, I actually ended up at a company in Los Angeles called RGA la. So RGA R. Greenberg and Associates was a New York office. They had a Los Angeles office that dealt with visual effects and film titles. And I got pulled into working on title sequences and film effects with that group because they like my organization skills, my budgeting, my scheduling stuff. And as digital revolution was coming up, nobody had figured out the pieces of part yet, so somebody had to do it. So we became very well known for the opening credits to the movie 7. And what people don't realize are why that title sequence popped so much, made such a big impact was we edited the title sequence using an avid, but we had a finish on physical film and we shot some somewhere like 26 miles of film. So to organize 26 miles into form frame edits that you have to manually assemble. And then a layer in digital doesn't work. Optical isn't exposing the film over and over again. So you have to open the camera, expose it, turn off the camera, do it again over and over again. It's not digital compositing. So Someone had to figure this out. That was me and my team. We're like, okay, so it was spreadsheets, roll ups and lineups and whatever just to put these pieces together to assemble this puzzle. And then therefore you get this amazing title sequence that no one had ever seen anything like it. And to your point earlier, some people would even say that title sequence got them into wanting to be a creative person and digital artists and motion design and motion graphics. And that was the birth of. It was really inventing the pieces and parts that make it happen. And that's where I touched the zeitgeist for I'll say the second time. First time was in the Oscars. Second time was doing the titles he couldster seven and then being part of the founding members of Imaginary Forces and being there for the first seven years.
- [21:28]
Radim Malinj
Of if 26 miles. Is that right?
- [21:32]
Tim Thompson
A lot of them is just high contrast images of titles going crazy and they grab tiny little pieces of it to make the animations that people saw. So it was nearly an impossible task. But we had a great strong team behind us and Kyle's creative direction was unmatched. He just pushed and pushed until we got the perfection that we saw on screen.
- [21:52]
Radim Malinj
So take me from Imaginary Forces to. To be a consultant for the creative industry. Because I have to be honest, Tim, I met you a few months ago, I didn't know if such things even existed. And all of a sudden I'm aware of all of this. Hyper aware of all of this. I'm like, well, I've been running a studio for 20 years. I didn't really know this consultant. And all of a sudden I've got a view on all of this world and I'm like, oh, right, okay. So you need to fill me in and put some color into those sort of 20 odd years of what you've been doing.
- [22:23]
Tim Thompson
Yeah, sure. Well, one is, I think there is an unfair. Consulting is an unfair word for what we actually try to accomplish. I have a former client that actually did a takeover of my podcast and his entire takeover was to try to convince me to stop using the word consultant and start using the word rev thinker. Like create my own category for what's out there. Because it's not really just. I'm not a former CPA or a former lawyer or business professional. I have a theater degree and a theology degree. Right. And I help people run their creative businesses. So there's a lot more that I am considering and not unlike you, random, where like you're asking the bigger pieces, where are you from what are you about? What are your intentions so we can actually accomplish the big picture. I think that's the important part. Here's what I learned at if like, you know, it's when you're young and not so experienced in production, you think your job is to get the job done on budget and on time. So the best way to do that is to put a lot of parameters on that project and basically work against the creative person. Just what it turns out to be or what it feels like at if I learned that creative must win, you know, some of it is because of the genius of Kyle Cooper. Like he wasn't going to let you win anyway. You he was going to win no matter what creative was going to win. So I had to actually start changing my thinking of what it meant to come alongside a creative person, finance the project that they were looking for and get it delivered still on time and on budget, but working alongside them. So that shift of creative must win game changer for me and it allowed me to be the creative person that I have inside that needs to come out and have a very different talent for it. But to recognize what the purpose is, the whole purpose of what we're trying to do is to make something unique, to be, to stand out, to be known for something and actually to contribute to the bigger picture like it. You know, our legacy isn't our tiny little commercials we make or the in house projects. Our legacy is often where we can make an impact and change the message or change the purpose or inspire others. So it's always exciting to, for me, for example, when I'm meeting a new client and that client will tell me your title sequence, the seven title sequence is what got me into it. And to think like yeah, that that's pretty awesome that I had that opportunity to be around that. Well, that that kind of desire I think is what we're looking for. So now to answer your question, when it came to consulting, actually after Imaginary Forces, I it's when I went to seminary, was leaving Imaginary Forces, I kind of was burned out. It was hard work. We worked hundreds, a hundred hours, weeks easily. And I had to find a different purpose, a different way to kind of understand what I was contributing. I didn't necessarily like the person I was becoming. I felt like I could even be a little manipulative of the time and I wanted to re anchor who I was and what my purpose was. So to go find a new foundation and to serve people in a very different way seemed like the perfect match. And, and Was encouraged a lot by the people around me to go do that. Because I went to seminary. A company called Trailer park hired me as basically a temp employee to restructure their operations of their business so I can make money on the side. I actually ended up with Trailer park for over, over five years I worked there. And what I did is I come alongside their business and their owners and I started building operations pieces. Creative must win mentality, thinking very differently of how systems and routines would work inside of a business so that they could be one of the world's best trailer houses. And it. And while I was working there, they actually were taken over. They were not taken over. They were purchased by another corporation to grow. So when I was at Trailer park, there's about 40 people when I got started, 400 people when I left. And as I was leaving, around the time I was leaving, they actually had consultants in house. Those consultants jobs were to audit the operations. And after working with those consultants for, oh, nearly a year, eight months or so, I showed up to work one day, those consultants weren't there anymore. And they said, tim, pretty much your operations is what's work, what's winning here? And I thought to myself, maybe I know something that other people don't know. Like these outside consultants that used to run hospitals and education, UCLA or whatever. They didn't understand our industry is a prima donna industry. Creative is that the beginning and end of everything we're doing. And you have to want the creative output, operations follow. So that's where my saying technology follows technique, where it comes from. It's like this idea of like implementing things in a technological way, but understanding that the technique or the purpose or the method is what's going to start that process for you. And once I knew that foundation, I thought I probably could do this for a living. I really do love it. So I started calling my friends and family, basically saying, hey, if I helped you, if you needed help or anything that you know that you're falling short on, what would you have me do? And people just started giving me little odd jobs. So I became like a freelance problem solver slash consultant. And that's where RevThink got started.
- [27:41]
Radim Malinj
If it's okay, I'm going to take you back one step because creative must win. It's a very good way of putting it. But you said, I want to find a way how to go along on the journey with the creative, how we can deliver on budget and on time. But then you said, I didn't like the person I was becoming I became manipulative, I became burnt out. I guess those hundred hours a week can crush any person to change anyone sort of nature. Because your circadian river must be no broken shot, you know, like everything you're not exactly firing or cylinders. So if there's any reflection, like, because I was getting from that answer something really positive, I'm like, oh, like Tim has actually worked out how to feed the egos, how to feed the ambition, how to feed all of those elements. But then it came at your cost, really for to yourself, really, like, because I. It's a very sort of strong reflection. And what did make you realize that there was some sort of element that was not as kind anymore?
- [28:44]
Tim Thompson
Well, yeah, I mean, to some degree, the idea of having something thrust upon you, like, I didn't. I wanted the Johnny Carson Hollywood. I didn't want the digital film Hollywood. It's not what I got into. I mean, it sure does help when you're sitting next to Tony Scott and Ridley Scott working on their films and you're doing digital compositing with them and running color timing and just spending hours and hours with them in an edit room or a sound room. Like, those are amazing moments. And to work with the world's greatest film directors like we did at Imaginary Forces and to know each one of those things we delivered needed a little bit of Tim's touch to it to figure out how we were going to get this version done because the technology had not yet evolved and we had to figure out the pieces and parts and how to work with whatever we have. So there was something really amazing about that at the time. I think the manipulative nature kind of just came from an ego base where like we actually were working with the world's greatest directors on the world's greatest films. And you don't work with. Not everyone works with Spielberg. But we were working with him on things like Minority Report or Twister or in these films I worked on him with. And so there's a lot to it. And that ego just got in my way. And that's where like, I didn't really like that person. I. It obviously was fun, but it was not. I wasn't going to be a great dad or a great husband if I kept that up, I would be successful professionally, but divorced or whatever. And I want to have a different legacy. So I had to ask bigger questions and kind of put my ego aside. And I think in that removing of the ego is when like religion showed up. And that was really good for me. And I really, it was absolutely a game changer for me and I kind of understood calling in a very different way.
- [30:30]
Radim Malinj
What a beautiful, mature answer for that age. Obviously, I've met your family and I think you made the right choice because some people would have fallen for the ego and was just like, no, that was the part of the job and we'll start over again. But that's a very good realization at the age going, you know, well, I can change.
- [30:46]
Tim Thompson
I'm the father of five boys. I would have been a father of two boys. Like, we wouldn't have had five amazing boys. And I have an awesome grandchild and my kids are healthy and strong. Actually, one of my sons is in the industry and doing sales for some of the production companies in our industry. So it's very sweet and it's great to be around it, but I knew that all of us were trying to achieve this and it. Our industry is really not fair because it's very competitive. And so you have to sacrifice something. And I didn't really like that. So I thought if I could help people achieve fame, fortune and freedom without compromise, then I'd help them do it. And that's been kind of my working model since I started Revolution Thinking is that my theory is we get in the industry for one of those reasons, fame, fortune or freedom. And we have to be anchored in that. Understand that strategically, and then live that entire career. So you can have a successful career, not just business or job, but an entire career. And I would say a lot of my clients are, appreciate that, thank me for that, even today. So working with some of them for almost 20 years, nonstop, and it's going great.
- [31:57]
Radim Malinj
Fame, fortune and freedom. I do say that industry is based on ego, ambition, anxiety and insecurity. But fame, fortune and freedom makes it sound a little bit more ambitious because, I mean, it's a cocktail of emotions, a cocktail of all, I mean, all sorts of things. As you say, the way you describe it, the way potentially I've got it, it's like it's an industry that throws you around because you never know what to expect. Because if you, for example, as you say you're from a sports family from Denver, you're on a pitch playing football, there's rules, there's ways to win, there's ways to lose, but you can find deviation in those rules. Whereas in creative industry, we go there mainly with our exposed souls, say, hey, I'm gonna do this for a living. There's no tracks per se. I wanna do it a certain way. I wanted to do it because I'm here for that reason. And then you find yourself not only dealing with the business, dealing with the clients, that your creativity is being sort of challenging. Like, well, this was meant to be fun. Possibly not. So fame, fortune, and freedom.
- [33:00]
Tim Thompson
When I think about your book, too, the idea of daring, I actually have a theory about this, because, you know, what we're. What we do for a living isn't actually dangerous. It doesn't feel actually. Or I mean, it feels dangerous, but it's not actually dangerous. But my theory is that, you know, the muse that has to show up in the creative process is. Comes from an aha moment. It's like a moment of revelation, and it's not there. You're often just doing something. Matisse process was literally start drawing until the muse shows up. Right. So you're basically just looking for the muse, but when the muse shows up, you actually now know what the purpose is of the creative thing you're doing. And then the pieces fall in and you get these major spikes in the output. But that muse and that creative moment, that aha moment, actually lives in the same part of your brain as fight and flight. So what I've started to realize is that the creative entrepreneur actually has a different challenge than just, you know, like, say, a business process. Because the fight and flight mechanism, the reptile brain, is actually at the core of your brain stem, and it hijacks the rest of it. So it hijacks the analytical brains, the higher brains, in order to kind of be there and inspire by that. And I feel like creative people are kind of are asking for permission. Can you guard my back while I enter fight and flight stage into this very edgy, very. Can you keep peace while I'm fighting this battle? Right. And from a business point of view, I wanted to be able to say, yes, I can actually do that. So I started developing techniques and processes so that the creative person doesn't have to panic all the time and running their business. So they only have to just panic on the job. And to give them peace of mind and process while they can let them enter into that mute, that state where the muse shows up more frequently. That's the goal. That's creative. Must win, and you have to have their back. So if you're a producer and you're the partner of a creative director, that's absolutely your job. I'll take care of the client, I'll take care of the budget. I'll take care of the hiring the people. I'll do some of the just Hands on work while you stay focused. Right? That's how we say it. But I think that daring moment, the thing that you're hitting in your book is really to say, hey, you gotta live in this space. You have to know who you are. And you can't compromise, you can't negotiate. And stay out of that edgy, daring space. You have to step into it to be your true self. And there will be reward when you do it.
- [35:37]
Radim Malinj
You got another two Fs, fight and flight. You got fame, fortune, freedom, fight and flight. And it's all Fs. But it's interesting because for me, daring is almost as you said at first, like permission granted. Like it's just like daring is not going to be standing on the sidelines, like looking at the life that you potentially could have had. You know, like I see creative life as a reverse engineering. I see it from the finish line going there is checkpoints. I'm gonna go to some of them. I might miss some of them, but I don't want to end up, you know, with a half full. Whatever life of experience is like that daring part is like between meeting the news and non meeting it is, it's sometimes five minutes it's taking us opening that door, asking for that job or like they're just doing something which is sometimes uncomfortable. That void before the news shows up challenges people. And what is really interesting about the book I'm working on the basis and you've been to my workshop in Barcelona is like how to be at peace with yourself. So you can do the thing with clearest of minds and be ready for whatever's going to F up. Let me add another F. What is going to F up and actually be less engaging with that sort of reptile brain and thinking like, I know that I've got option to fight and fight. I've got option how I can actually understand the situation because those four words I've been using in my workshops, like listen, observe, ask and understand. It's like everything that we do creatively in creative situation, in creative conflicts, there's a reaction. And if you dare to defend your words, you're like, oh, I need to speak. Whereas let me sit back for a second, I want to understand it. Because when we full of adrenaline and going, I am here to defend my work. You know, I'm way to fight and then fly. The word daring means so much to so many people and so many nuances that for creatives there's no jumping out of a plane is actually being able to do that thing over and over again and be happy to show up another day.
- [37:42]
Tim Thompson
Yeah, I. There is something that we're all trying to kind of process in this industry. Right. And I do think there's a difference between talent and creativity. I think you're right. The creative person can see the future and they must create the future. So technically, in your mind or in the process, you see the future and you work from the future into the present. Right. And that entire method of doing that stuff does well. A talented person, I don't believe, can see that future. They're not creatively, they're not using their imagination to project it. They have a talent or a skill. So a client could say to them, can you please make this. Here's an image, copy it. Or can you technically achieve something? And there's a lot of creative flow and a creative energy and creative process in it, but it really is a talent where a creative person or creativity, the one that you have to dare for is the one that says, I'm going to dream bigger. I'm going to dream beyond the scope or the elements. Again, I'll go back to the title sequence of seven. It's not possible. It was not possible to do. Simple. It was not possible to do. We had to make up the version to do it with the current technology at hand and then put the pieces together. That's daring, that's bold. To make a promise. I'll deliver this thing even though I have no idea how I'm going to get there. But I can see it in my mind and we'll figure it out.
- [39:06]
Radim Malinj
Said earlier that our industry is not fair because it's too competitive. But isn't that every industry?
- [39:14]
Tim Thompson
Well, I don't know. I mostly only lived in this one. But I can tell you there's definitely been moments where I wish it was easier because the minute I can be replaced, there's. I will be replaced. It's not loyal. I'm going to say, like there are some institutional careers you can have, government education, that kind of stuff. Like you could tenure into. If I was working at a university, I could tenure and never be fired. Like I said, I've been doing this for. I've been 30 year. And any day I have to, you know, any day if someone else is more talented, they'll take my job. And that's why this industry kind of keeps growing. I think tech probably feels very much the same way. And some engineering, you know, very much the same way. You have to really love it. That's how you stay in this game because. And by the way, I don't think most people don't have careers that are 30 and 40 years. They have good 10 year careers or 20 year careers. But there's a lot of people I got started with and I don't have any idea where they are now. They have all faded away. And there's a few of us that have been around as long as me and it's kind of fun. We feel like there's an old guard to it. So I also do feel like there's a responsibility. If you can survive 30 years in this industry, you have a responsibility to pay it back and give that experience to the younger generation. So there's also just a requirement. I call it the other peopleness. There's acquiring it to the other people to, to make sure that they're equipped to take on what they need to.
- [40:41]
Radim Malinj
I read somewhere once, mid my first, well about 10 years in, I read a book and it said, be careful how you do this because you've got about 20 years to enjoy it. And I'm thinking that's just a nonsense, you know, 20 years, I can't see myself doing anything different. And then kid you, not 20 years on the clock, I'm like, yeah, what's next? Like where do we go next? And what's really interesting, I think this particular sort of time and age where we are now, I feel so privileged to pivot. You can be so able to pivot and do whatever you want to do next because you're building blocks with. You've taken of the, I think that's momentum of like not akin to a passenger plane because you need to build up the momentum to sort of take off in the skies, but then you spend less fuel and you cruise in until you know what you're doing. And yeah, as you said, some people fade away. Like some people just get lost and they just sort of lose the love for the industry. But I think the way you beautifully describe it, like not paying it back, it's just, I think some of our greatest gifts because it wasn't that way for people. You know, for example, your idea of old Hollywood, I'm generalizing, I wasn't there. I would like to believe that what we created now is more generous, is more thoughtful and I think it's more about a human because this is how we're gonna go and potentially made this industry go for a lot longer and make it be more enjoyable for people. Because as you mentioned, the technological advancements like AI showed up and what did we See? Panic. Absolute blind panic. You're thinking, we should do better than that.
- [42:20]
Tim Thompson
I think if you're. If you believe in talent and all you are basing your career on is your raw talent, then AI is very much a scary thing. And you should be afraid because that skill that you have that you're really talented at, is a skill that can be replaced and will be. If it wasn't for AI, it'd just be a younger generation with a faster filter that will take care of it for you. If you're have a career based in creativity, then there's no reason to be afraid because your creative mind will always come up with something. And that ability, that's what the creative mind is doing. You just have to enter that space for the muse to show up. You have to know what that's like, and you have to use that space to find the future, project that future, and then achieve it. So there's nothing scary about a technological advancement with a creative mind, because the creative mind is the one that's actually asking the bigger questions of what to do with it. And I really love that. I actually have a theory of four stages of the creative of a creative career. The first stage is a. Is I call the artist stage. And the artist stage is simply using talent and doing skill, right? So think about just a painter painting an image by a beach. And when they charge for it, they charge for time and materials. That's simply like, that's how we enter our careers. Like, you know, I worked in a mail room, some people get, you know, to get on a box, but that's it. The next stage is the auteur stage. And auteur is. Is when other people do the work, but you get credit for it. So think of like a Steven Spielberg film. There's hundreds of people on it. But the auteur, that auteur's image is what you're banking on. And a lot of us believe that's the entire career. Artist, auteur, own a business. In my auteur stage exit, I'm done, right? But there's actually two more that kind of mirror that. The third stage is a curator stage. So not unlike the artist where you are promoting, but this case, a curator promotes other people. So it's not quite the auteur to a graduation from that, but it's the promotion of other people. And by promoting others, you also promote yourself. So think of a gallery owner. You must have artists in your gallery, but the gallery or the curator is also known for their curation. So It's a maturing of those first two stages. And the last stage is one that very few people get to. It's almost hidden because it's an unusual stage. I call it the collector stage. And the reason the collector stage is elusive and kind of confusing is collectors go to auctions, pay $80 million for a piece of art, and then hang it on the wall of a museum for free. Like nothing in the economy of being a collector makes sense. But if you're a collector, you actually know what you've been doing. You've been slowly gathering and gathering pieces that you leverage at the very end. So I like to point out the first stage is the fame stage. And the artist stage is the fame stage. The fortune stage is the auteur stage. The freedom stage is the curator stage. And the last stage, I haven't found an F word for it yet at random. So I like to say it's influence, emphasize the effing influence. But it's actually what we've been doing our whole career. That's how I've lasted for as many years as I have as I'm working at promoting other people, building people up, and then finding opportunities to influence, to create growth, to find a platform for other people and so on. So there is a longevity. But you have to understand all four stages. Otherwise the 10 year mark, or the 15 year mark, 20 year mark, man curator stage never comes. You're done at 20 years because you didn't do anything more than artist auteur, you better have saved up a lot of money.
- [46:08]
Radim Malinj
It's beautifully said. We have similar ways of looking at these stages. I only worked out three stages because I feel like the third stage is very much the general stage for like the one that looks out for the others because the initial one is selfish, the second one is a little bit more aware, but the last one is generous and open and excited about actually what is out there. Because you let go of the shackles of really your ego and your expectations. I think because you got some more resilience going. I can see anything and anywhere and I'm actually happy for things not to work out properly. Your fourth stage, going all the way.
- [46:40]
Tim Thompson
To collector, it's really giving it all away at the very end. Right? That is absolutely just. I'm done. Give it away and then you grow because you give it away.
- [46:49]
Radim Malinj
So be the way that you do it. How often do you see people that you can almost spot their potential to go all four stages and how often do you see people there? You need to Almost spell it out to them because they've got the talent, but their creativity or their personality or their generosity might need tweaking to. To be there. Because sometimes you can't make people be who they don't want to be. But what you describe in here, I think it's a beautiful sort of way of life.
- [47:14]
Tim Thompson
Yeah, it's a good question, to be honest. It's even goes beyond like not living up to potential. Some people absolutely sabotage their own ability of doing it. There's like a fear of not knowing what's possible. And they hoard back all the good stuff they don't build up. Other people, they think it's all about them and they just pile, you know, a bunch of influence just to make themselves famous. And the fame stage just doesn't. They never go beyond that thing. Or they might go into a fortune stage and just build up the fortune. And I definitely worked with some people and they almost come across as bullies. Like they're just pushing and pushing and pushing, but not for anybody's good. They're just pushing in order to gain more money or whatever, just the next win. And they kind of want to take you down. And there's definitely a competition out there, and some business owners like that. It's the tipping point or the other peopleness that actually comes with maturity. Right. So when I see, for example, there's a conference or not a conference, but an event that happens twice years called assembly, an assembly was brought together of business owners that are financing basically a party, a networking party. So they get personal benefit because they network, but they're actually asking their competitors to pitch in and bring their clients. So they're introducing current clients to their competitors and creating this big networking event for it. Why? For the greater good. I think, like that's a tipping point that took industry to mature to get, you know, 10 or 12 or 15 studios willing to do that. Fifteen years ago, when I started RevThink, nobody wanted to anything to do with their competitors. Matter of fact, they wouldn't even let me. I was under strict NDAs to not tell people who I was working with because they were afraid that I would, you know, trade secrets or that people would find out something about them. Because I working with RevThink. Today we have Rev Community that has 700 business owners sitting on a platform talking to each other in discussion, you know, open things up. They participate on our weekly briefings live on video. They're sharing information with their competitors or in one of our small groups, like going deep with what could possibly be a competitor. If not a competitor, at least just another business owner and having to share the hardships they're dealing with and issues. So I see like there's way more openness now. Absolutely. Than there was when I started RevThink. I'm actually very proud of this openness and the possibility of getting to that third and fourth stage of a creative career because other people ness is a requirement. You have to be able to give it away and you have to be generous and find a way of giving it away and openness to that. So I really love that that's playing itself out in our industry more and more tomorrow.
- [50:03]
Radim Malinj
Look into your four steps of a creative career. The more it makes sense because you talked about people sabotaging their careers by holding on to the good stuff. And that's the fame. That's the fame stage, which is like, oh, that makes sense. Then with the fortune people, like there's again some other issues. Not just somebody wants to be extremely rich because it's fun. It's like some people just hell no, you're that emotional void. But just they just keep going until the wheels come off. But that needs other help. But when you talk about the people in the community and the hardships, how much curiosity do you instill in the conversation to actually learn from one another? Like do is there that sort of natural floods of empathy and curiosity and compassion go into this like thinking how can I solve your problem? So mine seems a bit smaller. Do you see that sort of open up? Because that again, like what you described, for example, 20 years ago when I got into the industry, like compassion and emotional intelligence wasn't really we went near to what we were doing.
- [51:07]
Tim Thompson
Well, I mean so think back of my journey, right? I went from a dreamer basically to somewhat egocentric, successful but egocentric to a minister. So like serve a server serving our industry. And that serving begins the revolution thinking moment in my life. And now to get to a point where not only do I serve but like I actually have a platform or ability to pay it back more and more. You and I met at Paradiso and we met there because I was helping I Marco was a former rev thinker. I helped those guys early on. And then there's platforms being built more and more around our industry. So I want to, as soon as I see that, I want to support that, be part of it any way I can. That's why I went to off. That's why I'll go to digital design days just to contribute whatever I can and Encouraging these platforms to stay around. So it's happening around me and I just want to be part of it anyway. But the ability, I think to grow beyond your own, like just physical ability, you have to get out of the ego mind. You have to. That's a scarcity mentality. It's really like it sabotages you. If you think this is there's only a finite amount, then your creative mind is at work. You're limiting it to go to an abundance mentality. Creativity absolutely is abundant. There's no stopping your creative mind from working. Just allow it to take place, give it permission to do its job. And that's why I think going back to the original cure of like, permission granted has got to be why are we holding back? What are we actually afraid of? Let's let our creative mind go to work and see what's possible. And I think this evolution we're about ready to see with a technological advancement is yet another moment where we're gonna have to think differently about what's coming at us, how we're gonna process that. And that's totally curiosity. I almost feel like my job is to be the first follower, to be the most curious, to be the number one fan of this industry, to give people like a momentum to think differently or as I like to say, rev think things differently, to go after those new changes, those new evolutions that are going to take place. So my theory is there's there's revelation, then there's revolution and then there's evolution. Right? And we have to give permission for revelation. Revolution is this time of change, as I talked about revolution, revolution, thinking is about that. And then evolution, it becomes the new normal. And that's always processing that curiosity is the revelation stage. It's just wondering and looking and having that aha moment. Oh, that's how it works. Now I'll go change the world to match that. Now that is the new world. It's what evolved from it.
- [53:56]
Radim Malinj
I wanted to ask you what excites you when you see the industry, but you just answered it like you're the number one fan. I can enable you like the conduit in between the both sides. It's something that is so valuable and it's just so interesting how much benefit it's had and how much influence it's had on people, creating that space where we can share. We have learned so much more about one another, about how we do the processes, maybe sometimes to the detriment of the originality, because we get so much more people being very good at the top end level where the creative ideas and originality really sparks like offshoot of real sort of creative revolution. Because we go good. Like, I mean we, I think by democratization of the information is really good. Therefore, like how you do business and who you created with it makes all the difference. And I think being able to be there and being able to be there for the others, it makes that difference because you never know if you might win a client just because you were more compassionate. You listen to them, you listen to their problems.
- [54:57]
Tim Thompson
Yeah, Radam, I think you're hitting it spot on. It's the opportunities that we have is as creative leaders, though immature in the industry, encouraging others, it's not only just a necessity for your personal survival, it helps things grow and helps build something that's really important. I, you know, if it's not obvious, I'm a big fan of this industry. I'm a fan of the people that sacrifice the time and effort and the risk to start a business to encourage others to create more opportunities for their clients, create opportunities for their employees. I think it's a very hard job and I think it's, it needs support. And I feel very blessed, honestly, very blessed to love what I do for a living, love the people I do it for and have a new challenge every day I get to take on. So I'm most grateful for rev community and the people that believe in me and trust me. I think that's hard earned but really appreciated that there are people that want to be part of a community, love to share things, trust that I'll guide and protect them and their stuff as we do that. And I want that just. I want that movement to carry on way beyond my own ability, any way we can. So again, I think that when I, when you and I met, we realized, man, we have a lot in common because we have this common goal that it's more important than things out there are greater than just the two of us. And it's more important to give it away than to hold it back. So I love your books, I love the way you're sharing, I love your workshops and I'm grateful to be your friend now just a collaborator with you and doing this stuff together. It's been really awesome. Thank you.
- [56:36]
Radim Malinj
Well, Tim, I can only thank you for this wonderful conversation, for all the conversations we've had prior to this conversation and for all the future conversations we'll have because I'm not always nearly speechless towards the end of this recordings because there's so much I'm taking from this. There's so much that people are taking from your community that they're taking from your wisdom, from your knowledge, from your guidance. And when you said I'm a number one fan, you don't have to say it because when people meet you, they will feel it, they know it. And that is irreplaceable. That's not fake famous. That's nothing like that. It's just like this is a true dedication to this industry and I think we are lucky to have you. So thank you very much.
- [57:16]
Tim Thompson
Thank you my friend. I appreciate you.
- [57:27]
Radim Malinj
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Banks podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.