← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
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- [00:10]
A
It really has been an unlock. I mean, so much so that even in my fractional practice, oftentimes in my proposal I talk about how I can help a company go through change, but then help them hire my full time replacement at the end, which I'm not a recruiter, but I recognize that I am connected to a lot of people and if I help spread the word or can help a fellow creative leader get a full time job, great. And that I can be involved in the process and even help them, you know, get onboarded and train them and then it's kind of a win, win, win company gets a new full time person I can help kind of pass the baton and then this new person could get a job. I tried to find ways to help others.
- [01:09]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinj. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a question. Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I'm speaking with Rachel Gojel, an independent design executive and devoted generalist who's built her career on embracing discomfort, creating her own path without waiting for permission. Rachel shares with me why having conviction is far more important than specializing in a world focus on niches. She explains how building real relationships, relationships through generosity, has been her biggest career asset. She talks about how facing her challenges and loss made her realize that time is precious. Rachel has redefined what success means to her by choosing to keep her practice small. Blending consulting, teaching, mentoring, advocacy with focus on impact, meaning and empathy. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Rachel Gougel. Foreign. It's great to see you. How are you doing?
- [02:55]
A
Hey, I'm so glad to see you. I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for having me.
- [02:59]
B
You call yourself a devoted generalist and when I heard you saying this, I was like, we gonna have a good conversation. I'm looking forward to what's gonna happen in the next hour. But for those who don't know, Rachel Gaugel, who are you? What do you do?
- [03:15]
A
I am an independent design executive and a creative director. I'm currently based in San Francisco, but I am moving back to Paris. It's actually my hometown. I grew up in Paris, France, but I've been living in the US now for 20 odd years. So my entire adult life has been in the US in my career for the last five years I've been running my own solo consultancy and I've been during that time collaborating with a lot of global organizations in what we call, or some people call a fractional leadership capacity. I tend to steer a lot of strategic change at the intersection of brand culture and technology. But I've worked with bigger companies like Airbnb or Dropbox and most recently Intuit and then a lot of several women founded ventures. So smaller organizations you may have not heard of, but should look into like chicken and egg films or Anew, which is a social impact incubator in New York that just opened. And then, yeah, before starting my own business, I built a lot of multidisciplinary creative teams at companies like gq, New York Times, the Facebook app, so lots of bigger companies working in house. And then if I'm not working in the kind of design practice, I also teach and I've been teaching the last few years at the California College of the Arts in San Francisco. When I lived in New York, I taught at sva. And then if I'm not teaching, I devote a lot of time to mentorship, to speaking engagements, a lot of volunteer opportunities, mostly in design initiatives across the board. But I'm a fierce advocate for marginalized voices in the industry. I try to devote a lot of time to that. So when you, when you talk about being a generalist, I potentially am that definition since I, my career is really built of all of these activities I just mentioned. So consulting, speaking, teaching, mentorship, volunteering, and just trying to get. Figure out where my time goes and, and use it as intentionally as possible.
- [05:29]
B
I guess I just love the fact that you do so many different things. They're all connected, but they are so wonderfully eclectic in a way that they are still the creativity is there through and through and there's no. The purpose is there through and through. And I think the term of devoted generalist definitely works really well.
- [05:47]
A
I will say that term is. I can't take credit for it. Elizabeth Goodspeed definitely came up with that term and I have reclaimed it because I thought it was brilliant. But yeah, the devoted generalist thing is, is very real and I just wanted to give her credit where it's due.
- [06:02]
B
It's really interesting because I want to be really clear about the fact like you can you can be led to think that the world is telling you to find your niche and you can let the world tell you that you need to be specialist in certain way. But ultimately, if you've got this unrivaled curiosity for life and creativity, it's your, it's really your call, right? It's not, it's not because the world tells you to be specialist that you have to be one, because you really want to be one. And equally, like generalists, you don't really make a generalist just because you tell them be interested in everything because it just comes from the soul.
- [06:33]
A
I have always been a generalist and I do think that both specialists and generalists belong and their moments when you're working where you need one or the other. So I think we can coexist. But I hear you. I, I notice a lot of noise around this, this idea that you should be one or the other and that will make you more successful. I'm also seeing, I think with the rise of AI tools, just a lot of narrative around again, like devoting more time towards one or the other, and that will help you overcome or stay relevant. So I think being a generalist is actually a great thing. I mean, I know I'm biased because I am one, but generally that idea of being able to dip your toes and often being kind of agnostic to the medium or being able to jump into different projects at various altitudes, I think is a way to lean into those uniquely human capabilities and to continue experimenting and trying different things. And it helps you not stay. They're too narrow in one, in one space. So I'm attracted to that path. I know it's not for everyone, but I'm a big fan of, of it and I'm living proof that it's possible and so are you.
- [07:54]
B
I feel like being a journalist is almost like being a micro specialist in 25 different things. You find that sort of hyper focus in this thing. I'm going to do this well, and I'm going to do this because one of the things that you say, you say that we need more conviction and a little bit less specialization because it is about conviction, right?
- [08:13]
A
It is. And I do think adaptability and the ability to just be open to change and trying different things. I think even in a survey that AIGA put out maybe a few years ago, this was pre pandemic, but it suggested that being able to adapt to technological and social change is one of the most critical skills to have in the future. And that was before the AI boom and I think it's still more relevant than ever in terms of conviction over specialization. Yes. I started my career post Internet and email boom. And watched so much technological change at a pace that I can't even describe. I mean I. It's not like I've been working for that long, maybe over 15 years. And I've seen, you know, everything from the first generation of the iPhone to the iPad that was meant to penetrate the market and take over to then mobile becoming more relevant than ever. And then now, I mean I, it's even hard to describe. And I live close to Silicon Valley. Just watching this amazing AI boom kind of take shape and a lot of friends are part of it and the conviction is, is real. I do think that. So I've watched titles change. When I started out, it was, I mean you could probably relate to this. You were either a print design or a web designer and that was pretty much it. Now there's more titles than I can even list. Everything from Vibe Coder to I don't know what. And titles have become so important to people. But if you strip the title away and really look at what a designer's core set of skill sets should be in today's world and environment, there's so much privilege and power to what we're doing capable of. And I think some people are losing sight of that because there's all these trends and social media has obviously become so loud that it. You kind of easily can confuse what feels important. And even the term designer has become more expansive. So many people call themselves designer now. And so I guess I, it's just interesting to watch and then make sure that even when I'm in the classroom talking to students is making sure to separate what feels like noise to what really feels important for them to feel like they can graduate and enter our field. And really that conviction is what matters to me.
- [10:52]
B
Did you mention that you speak to your students about how to navigate the noise? I think that should be class on its own.
- [10:59]
A
Obviously it comes with it. It's just changing so quickly and even I have a hard time. And I think that's, I guess acknowledging and being vulnerable and being able to speak to my own experience and then watching how students or emerging talent are entering the field and it's a very volatile market right now. It's very scary. But I do think that even more important right now to enter our industry, I think it's. I always have the optimistic point of view, I guess. And I, I think it's a. An amazing time to be a Designer. And sometimes going back to those basics is more important. I just gave a talk at Intuit about the art of critique. And at the end of the day, what's interesting is I really was just grounding them in fundamental things around how to share and receive feedback, how to look at work, and just really unpacking the importance of critique as a practice and grounding it in the origin of critique and why critique is even part of a design practice. And you know, we barely even talked about AI. The only time AI came up was around the practice of note taking. And because I was essentially suggesting that it's still very important to take notes, even if it's digitally but a pen and paper. Even if you're relying. Exactly. Even if you're relying on AI to transcribe the meeting or the critique and. And summarize the key insights that came out of that session. How important note taking is almost as important as listening. And I mean all. Again, all this to say sometimes just going back to those basics and stepping away from the noise or the what's entering the zeitgeist and it. And it can get confusing. But some of those fundamentals are just. Are still as important as ever. And I hope that that's something that our education or design education is continuing to invest in and not getting caught up in that too easily.
- [13:01]
B
We have made the art of listening or not listening or AI listening. And AI aided listening way too easy. And I feel like it's really causing a havoc with critical thinking of. Have you got a note? Yes. Did you understand what has been said? No. And I think it's really dangerous in a way of having all of that data that nobody almost ever reads or potentially no one even understands. Because what you've been describing about the students and the noise and kind of talking about the fact that there's a sort of change in volatile market by. The times have never been more exciting. So it's almost like how do you give yourself one step back and look at all of it? Because I feel like the moment we wake up, we just get dropped on this highway at 100 miles an hour because we are looking at our phones. Be like, we don't really have time to really understand. Sorry, I said we don't really have time. We don't give ourselves often the time to understand what is happening right now. Because let's be honest, the times we live in, I mean, oh my God, it's amazing, but we barely make a sense of it sometimes.
- [14:04]
A
Yes, it's. You can easily get caught up. And I talk about this concept of designing your time a lot and being able to step back and reflect on where your time is going. And it's part of my practice as an independent practitioner because time is money, essentially, but so much more. It's so much more than that. It's me figuring out how I want to build a career. And I was also dealing with a lot of health issues in 2020 unrelated to Covid. And I think the weird silver lining there though was that it helped me set up my independent practice and think about balance and well being and health first and foremost. Because if I don't have that, I. I have nothing. Everything I described happens usually during quote, unquote business hours. It's just not what you would expect from like a 9 to 5 job. It's me figuring out where and how to spend my time and then also being able to live my life outside of a lot of those activities. The comment about AI and time and noise. And I guess it's interesting because what came up for me as you were talking was that I see myself as an early observer, not necessarily an early adopter. And what I mean by that is I have always felt like I'm close to what's happening in culture, no matter. You know, I mean, I live near Silicon Valley now, but I was in New York when I was working in publishing, and I felt like I was close to or in the heartbeat of what was happening in publishing at the time, which was interactive print, which now feels like a old dated thing. But it's when a lot of the iPads were figuring out how to bring magazines to life. And it can get really overwhelming when you see new things happening in culture and then you figuring out where and how you want to get involved with it. What is your opinion on it? How do you want to use it? What is your relationship to it? I think also because I tend to get involved with teaching initiatives, then it's. I have to develop my own opinion to then be able to figure out how to share certain opinions or create a space to have dialogue about that topic. And so even now when I'm watching this new, essentially where I'm living is so close to this epicenter of the AI boom. And it can be there's one version of this where I could be telling you I am experimenting with every tool and trying to figure out my relationship to it, but the reality is I only really use quad and perplexity and maybe have some calendly AI note integration. You mentioned granola earlier. So that Piqued my interest of figuring it out. Cause I weirdly heard about it this week too. And I basically, I figure out what feel right for me in the moment, in time. And I read a lot, so I kind of know the landscape and if people ask me questions about it, can maybe share an opinion. But I'm, I'm really being. I guess I'm trying to be thoughtful around how much time to kind of like lean and devote to it, because I have so many other things that I want to spend time on and you can easily get caught up in it. And. And at least as a solopreneur, I've really seen AI as a collaborator in many ways. But I'm really conscious even of the environmental impact of AI. I really try to think about how these technologies are impacting just like the world around me. So I guess for me, AI is really just another instrument in our expanding toolkit for creative empowerment. And I figure out kind of what works for me and then go from there. And I guess I try and encourage others to do the same.
- [18:02]
B
You said something that actually really got me interested. We said I just decide where and how I get involved. What is your process of actually stepping back and not let the sort of mass uninformed hysteria via early adopters not wash over you?
- [18:18]
A
I think it's an exciting time. I think it can also be a dangerous time if you're not careful. And yes, it can definitely become overwhelming for many. I would encourage anyone listening to just figure out just what works for them and to not feel like they have to be fluent and everything that's going on, first of all, that's not possible. And second of all, it's not going anywhere. I mean, AI is, is becoming ubiquitous. It's in almost. It's going to become part of everything or a lot of the things that we touch. And while it may be democratizing some outputs in our industry, developing discernment through practice failure, those are the things that remain uniquely human. And so I don't think it's democratizing taste. It's not democratizing the right sensibilities as creatives. And I think so many things like, you know, taste tends to come up, but storytelling chops a lot of crafts. It's going to become more and more vital. But it's always been important. It's not like it's suddenly more important. It's just remembering what's important and making sure that you understand the creative currency of the future. And then just take a breather. Sometimes it feels like there's it's happening so quickly now that you're on a really fast train and it's hard to get off. I would encourage people to get off the train once in a while.
- [19:48]
B
It's an important thought. Sometimes when you're on that train and it's moving fast and you feel comfortable, you're thinking, stay for a bit longer. Because one of your mantras that you do and one of the things that you actually speak loudly about the fact is that you embrace the discomfort. You like the messy process. And I think when you think about it, AI is exactly the opposite. Embrace easy, embrace them. I mean, can be messy prompting. But how messy is AI on a surface level? So embrace some discomfort. It's not for many people to say out loud that that's what they actually do and metabolize it. So in your processes when you move to Facebook, how did you manage it? How did you navigate it?
- [20:32]
A
Well, it's worth noting that I was given a chance early on to become a people manager. When I was in my early 20s and it was at my dream job, I was at gq. They were a freelance client and someone gave me this opportunity. The first day my boss told me he had given his two weeks notice. So this concept of discomfort for me started early because I, it came out of necessity. I had never managed a team before, let alone a team of people who were older than me and more experienced than me technically on paper, and I wanted, I just had to figure it out. I asked questions, I acknowledged when I didn't know the answer. I went on a listening tour, talking to people and spending time with them, building trust, building relationships. And I didn't necessarily get that advice from someone, but I, I guess I just leaned into this pretty awkward situation and I managed to survive two different publishers and got promoted a few times. It was, it was a wild time. But I guess those lessons early on then helped me navigate different big seismic changes in culture or at companies. And maybe I'm drawn to them. If I look back, I guess I, most people think that I would leave jobs or situations when things, people would be like, why are you rocking the boat? Things are good for you. And my answer was like, I don't know, it's just a feeling like it's too easy or I feel like I, I want to keep building. I, I like getting my hands dirty. And that's kind of what drew me to each role after that was like something didn't exist or something was broken. And I really enjoy that messy process. So I guess that discomfort inherently is embedded in those situations. And it, I did not do it on purpose, but if I, if I look back, there's clearly a pattern in my trajectory.
- [22:47]
B
That's interesting that you said that you got this role, that it was originally a freelance client and you stepped into a people management. That's a young age to be leading people who are older than you. Did you have any prior data points, life experiences, any role models? Or was it really just the sort of sink or swim moment?
- [23:09]
A
Yeah, no, it was. I mean, I graduated college during a recession in the U.S. i couldn't get a job. I started interning and then I finally got my foot in the door as a junior designer at a magazine called Travel and Leisure. So I was on a, your maybe a more common path of starting through the motions. And then because it was a recession, I had a hard time getting a job. I started freelancing really early and maybe that helped me develop certain skills really early on, like recognizing my own value, negotiating raid, building client relationships, kind of navigating my own time. But in terms of people management, like, I had never had any roles like that before. And so I guess in terms of modeling behaviors that maybe I had experienced before, I mean, I really barely had had any jobs. I had some internships, I will say throughout college. So I was exposed to other people leaders and probably subconsciously took notes of certain leaders that I respected and then wanted to emulate their behaviors when I got that job. But yeah, I was in my, I was maybe like 21 or 22 and I was really scared. I, I mean that GQ was honestly my dream magazine and I got this associate art director job and I was barely getting started in my career and they took a big chance on me and I'll always be grateful for that. And it really, that's really, I think when I think about my career, that put me on a, a faster track than maybe had I gone a different, in a different direction.
- [24:56]
B
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. LAX Coffee Company offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel@luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order. What was the draw for gq? What was the draw with editorial? Why magazines?
- [25:51]
A
I loved collecting print ephemera. I loved collaging a lot in high school and college. So mixed media, collage, print ephemera. Maybe again, like I was. I was less appreciative of growing up in Paris when I was younger. I have a lot more gratitude towards that moment in time. But even being surrounded by art and architecture and being able to develop certain design sensibilities maybe early on. So I always. I would buy magazines. I had the privilege of traveling a little bit growing up due to my dad's job, and I would always buy magazines for the flight and so just generally was surrounded by magazines. And I. GQ specifically stood out to me because I loved the writing and the design DNA that specifically Fred Woodward had injected in magazines during that moment in time. And he brought a lot of his Rolling Stone DNA to gq and it was just fun and different and there were infographics and it was. I don't know, so ironically. So I never ended up actually working for Fred. He was there at that time. But I joined the marketing side of the magazine and I. So I ended up kind of overseeing the marketing art department. But what was great was me trying to figure out how to build trust with the newsroom or with. With the editorial side. And because of everything that was happening with the emergence of certain technologies, I was trying. I would try to figure out what was happening with. Again, at the time it was the iPad or even augmented reality. And then would try to figure out how to make sure that GQ could stay on the forefront of innovation. It had already. It already had that reputation, but I was trying to uphold it. And I don't know, maybe because I was a bit younger and curious, and I tried to shake things up a little bit and really be a bridge between editorial and marketing, which, if you remember that moment in time, it was very church and state. They would barely talk to each other. So that was definitely something I was trying. Trying to do. So, yeah, gq, just the design and the approach, it really attracted me there. And. And that was my dream for a while, and I am so grateful. But eventually, I think I just. I created a new dream and had new goals, and it helped me figure out kind of a certain path that took me on a really fun journey after that.
- [28:27]
B
I mean, let's talk about our journey. I mean, before we do. You just reminded me of the fact when you say I used to buy magazines for travel and it was not. Actually, it was not uncommon to buy six, seven magazines like Just to buy a stack of magazines. I don't know, I haven't thought about it for 20 years.
- [28:42]
A
And then you'd leave it, right? You'd like leave it on the plane for the next person to maybe read.
- [28:47]
B
Or they fall out, you put them in your bag, they come out, they just. Because they're all like, they'll spot uv gloss, finish, they just will glide and stuff. But yeah, let's talk about what happened next because obviously you got exposed at quite young age to big companies, big corporations, big operations and big teams. And obviously you picked up on a culture, you picked up on design, you picked up on a technology. And I think what we should talk about is the fact that you believe that you don't really need permission to design your career because you can do it yourself. Because five years ago you went to start your own solo consultancy and you. I think what I'm picking up on, AtLife has been very exciting because you can really do things to work with your devoted generalists and curious spirit in the way of helping companies to do all sorts of different things. So on that way of understanding culture and embracing discomfort and leading with compassion, how did you see that when you realize that moment that you can put all of this together and take it to the world and create something which is in my opinion, almost quite unique sets of skills together?
- [29:51]
A
Yeah, it's definitely a mix of publishing, social media, definitely bounced around even with some of my freelance clients across a few different industries. It's interesting because there were definitely moments even since college where I would ask myself, is this the right time? Am I, Am I ready to do my own thing? I think I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit, so it's something that's always been in the back of my mind. And then it was a question of time. And so when I left college, I had that moment and I couldn't get a job. I said there was a recession. So I started freelancing, which in and of itself meant that I was technically my own boss and trying to figure out where I wanted to spend my time and how I wanted to build this freelance practice, at least when I first got started. Then I ended up getting full time roles. And what was interesting with just how I got started was the fact that, oh, if I can have a full time job, maybe I can also squeeze in a freelance thing here and there and still keep that going and then keep developing relationships whether I'm working at a company or getting involved with passion projects on the side. And so I. It kind of became part of my. Again, these are my early 20s, but I would have a full time job and then I would maybe take on one project once in a while, mostly whether that was a book cover design or a poster for an independent film. And I would find myself attracted to certain kinds of projects. And it was, it was fun. But I would obviously be thoughtful about where and how my time was going. And a lot of those full time jobs did require a lot of time, especially because most often it almost felt like I was joining companies that were building something new. And so it was almost like a startup within a legacy company. And I would be involved as a founding creative director at that moment in time when I started to feel like I wanted something different. So after gq, I went to the New York Times and again, such a privilege. And I learned so, so much. And that was the boom of native advertising or branded content brand. And I think that was a mix of having been in New York for a while and then asking myself, if I went out on my own now, would I just be known for doing publishing? I would only get projects within publishing or magazines. And how would I feel about that if I, if I did that? And so when the Facebook gig came up, I then thought to myself, well, maybe it's worth trying, trying something else. What if I get, I get put in this tech environment and it's a whole new industry. I would meet people, I would move to California and maybe that will expose and help me kind of round out certain skill sets. I guess I. I guess I think I had a fear that I would be pigeonholed into one kind of industry if I. If I left the Times at that moment in time and started my own thing. So I did that. So there were these moments throughout my career where I would ask myself, is this the right time? Is this the right time? And so I guess it took a few more years. I was at Facebook for a few years and then I wanted to try agency side. So I went to a small design studio called Godfrey Dotage Partners. And that was great for different reasons. And then Covid hit, which I'm sure some people would not recommend starting a business peak pandemic. But I mentioned earlier I had some health stuff come up and I think between some of the health stuff Covid as the backdrop and then you know what the real story is that I got a job at Netflix. Not many people know this, but it's a fun story. I was recruited at Netflix around the time that I then ended up starting my own thing and Right before I was going to start, my job was kind of imploded. My would have been boss got fired. She wrote me a message saying, don't worry, your job is safe. I'm really sorry we never got to work together. And then I talked to HR and then they basically said, don't worry, your job is safe, but your job is now this. And they basically had demoted the role and changed the setup. And by this time, I had already gone through interviews and negotiated. I even signed an offer letter. So technically, I was a Netflix employee. I just hadn't started yet. Long story short, I was like, look, this is not the job that I signed up for. You know that. I know that. So, like, I don't think this is right anymore. And I negotiated a severance because technically I was an employee. And I ended up using that money as basically gave me a safety net to finally go out and do my own thing. So the joke amongst friends is that Netflix technically gave me seed money to start my own business.
- [34:54]
B
You said it a few times throughout your answer, but you said, am I ready? Am I ready? And I loved, I love hearing this because there are some people who will always push that day to another day because they don't want to be ready. Whereas I think there's a collective mindset of people who are striving, when will I work with bigger clients? When will I take on something bigger? When will I do this? And I think as a signal of that healthy hunger, I know I am destined to do something big, bigger, better, more fulfilling. So every time you said it, am I ready? I was like, this is a good sign. And thanks for the exclusive. Netflix actually, you know, funded your business. That's even for the better because, I mean, the things you've been doing and the way you do it, I think it's. Again, I've said it before, it's so unique because as you said, you work between brand, culture and tech. And this is exactly the moment that we've been piecing together these does that we've been joining. Because the way you do it, yes, you didn't want to be just an editorial designer or be someone coming from. From that side of thing. So having those extra pieces of your armory, your skill set, your arsenal being put together, I think is fantastic. So having started on your own, having been doing your thing, I know that a lot of things that you've created for yourself is based on relationships. You've been very much a purveyor of getting out there, getting to know people, connecting with people. Actually be out there and actually be known. Because the more I think about it, yes, you were questioning yourself, am I ready? Am I ready? But you've been making connections throughout all of most of your work in life, which sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, it's actually what matters that people know who you are as a person and the person that can actually understand what you can offer rather than just being skilled and built a very skill skillful in what you do. How would you say the power of relationships changed your seed money from Netflix into a business?
- [36:54]
A
It's a great question. I. What first came to mind was that early in my career, as I mentioned, when I ended up at gq, which the only reason I even got that freelance job in the first place was because of an internship from the previous summer at Kona Nast. And those relationships obviously changed my entire trajectory. But because I started that job earlier, what was interesting was then I started getting emails or people basically asking me for, do you know other people who are like you, who could join our team? And. And there was an influx of requests and I immediately had the impulse to start a mailchimp newsletter that. I know this is gonna sound unoriginal, but it was called Creative Jobs the List. And it was my way to essentially remove myself from the equation. And if people wanted to get access to my network and the types of jobs that I was hearing about that I would. There was not really a calendar cadence. It was just very natural. I would. People would send me job descriptions, a title, and a direct email address. And I would put together a list of these jobs and then send it to my friends. And it was all word of mouth. So the only way to subscribe was if you had the link and then people would share it with other people. And then so organically it grew just to a few thousand subscribers. And I did not realize how much this would impact my community or network because I wasn't charging for this. There was no ego attached to it. I truly just wanted to, I don't know, I guess connect people and help people get jobs. And again, as I said, it was a rough time because of the recession and people were eager to enter. Specifically, most of the jobs were within publishing, but they were kind of adjacent jobs as well. And even I got interviews through it just because I would then meet people and then they would ask me questions. And I ran that my entire time I was in New York up until 2016 and I moved to California. And I. Little did I know that that would actually be a Big devoting time to doing that then completely expanded my own community and people that I knew so much. So that one person that was a subscriber of that ended up working at Facebook years later and he was the one who referred me for the job that I got at Facebook. So again, karma, I'm a big believer in karma related to relationships and really approaching them with kind of genuine empathy and curiosity and really just trying to help others because you really never know. And it really has served me. Every job that I have had truly has been through relationships, whether that's a former colleague, someone I met for coffee, I guess at this point in my career, maybe some referrals. So someone who then shares my information and what I do. And it really, I would say out of anything or any advice I would give to anyone is just making more time for relationships. And almost back to this idea that, that it's so noisy right now that people are spending a lot of times on their phones or like getting distracted really easily. Just remember again some of the basics which is just the more you're able to spend time towards building relationships and trust, it really can change your life. And I have seen that happen for me. And so by the time I went out on my own, my network, it just felt very organic and I was just catching up with people and somehow, you know, that would plant a seed about a role or something like that. I feel very lucky in that sense. But it, it's not just luck. It is definitely time spent towards nurturing and fostering relationships. So yeah, would you.
- [41:02]
B
Beautifully described about building your network and creating this, this newsletter. It's, it's generosity and kindness. I think we, we've been seeing the, the change of community or following of like, hey look, this is what I do and you can jump on it or not, you can jump on and see me doing, doing what I'm doing. Whereas when you reverse that process and say, hey, look, I'm here for you, how can I do this? There's one of my previous guests, Vicky Ross is very famous for just showcasing others, lifting others up and guess who gets them? No, who gets referrals? Vicky Ross, because she's actually sharing the kindness, sharing generosity, like actually being there for others. And this is the true meaning of community. Because in the age of self now we can see following as something which is quite selfish in a way. Like, hey, I'm doing this. And what are potentially, what are people's intentions? You can have random tips and tricks about branding. There's five a minute on LinkedIn whatever, just showing generosity, it just changes everything. And again, it's a beautiful testament to what you said that most of the things that you've been doing, like the referrals, the jobs, the commissions are from these connections. These connections. Because how many cold emails land in everyone's inbox every day going, hey team, this is what I can do. It just feels really, really sad. But it kind of takes us back to the thing like you don't need permission to design your career, but you can definitely need your accountability and focus to design your career because you can really do it. Especially if you sit almost selflessly because scarcity mindset is complicated for many of us, but it's like, how do you let go and say, you know what, I don't care necessarily if I'm winning today, but I want to make my friends and my networks win first.
- [42:52]
A
Yeah, it's huge. It really has been an unlock. I mean, so much so that even in my fractional practice, oftentimes in my proposal I talk about how I can help a company go through change, but then help them hire my full time replacement at the end, which I'm not a recruiter, but I recognize that I am connected to a lot of people and if I help spread the word or can help a fellow creative leader get a full time job, great. And that I can be involved in the process and even help them, you know, get onboarded and train them and then it's kind of a win, win, win. Company gets a new full time person, I can help kind of pass the baton and then this new person could get a job. And so I guess even though I don't run that newsletter anymore, I tried to find ways to help others. Again, this was not, it's not done in such a way that it, Yeah, I mean, I guess it really is something that I, it's come so natural to me to help others that I don't even, honestly, I don't even think about it. So whether it's part of my factual practice or I do a lot of mentorship or my calendar's pretty much open to anyone who wants to ask me questions. And I talk a lot about money, actually. I talk a lot about salary transparency and how much money I make per year and how I made it and I publish that on LinkedIn. And so again, like, I guess part of that is because I want to just expose how I run my business, hoping that someone could then maybe make more money than they did before. And so knowledge, or sharing knowledge, I guess is another way that I try to maybe help the community because if I can help others, then it comes back around. I also, for a long time every year would design my own holiday card and then I would write handwritten notes. And again, that was my way of just staying in touch with people. And I would send those to family and friends, but also clients. And how rare is it to get a piece of mail that you actually is, not a bill or some reminder to do something. And I have kept that up actually this year, maybe because of my upcoming move is the only year I haven't planned for that just yet. But I am planning to create one once we move so I can let people know that we moved. But yeah, I've kept it up. And those are people still talk about the newsletter or the holiday cards that they get. And so yeah, finding your thing, I guess is important and how, how you want to make time for relationship building. And it is something that again takes time. And the more time you invest in it and put care and I guess kindness and really just also listen and share knowledge. I do think that more than ever, I think it's important right now to acknowledge like how important genuine connections can be.
- [46:07]
B
What you mentioned about money was really interesting because it made me think of your definition of success. And I was getting ready for this conversation by listening to your talk from design thinkers rgd. And this was the first time that someone has defined success in the most succinct and most impactful way I've ever seen it or I've ever heard it, because the way you've described it, for some people, success is worse. Success is money for some people. Sometimes money is everything for some people. And I always think about what does success mean to me and what does success mean to other people and what is the general idea? And the way you summarized it was beautiful. Sort of diagram of five different things that sort of lead into one another. And you talked about remaining small and necessarily not caring about money, just being able to do all of these different things. So what does success mean to you?
- [47:06]
A
Thank you for saying that. I mean, for me, success really truly manifests as this harmonious blends what you know, what you're referring to. So if I'm able to consult, mentor, teach, speak, and then spend a good amount of time for advocacy, which oftentimes is embedded in a lot of these other things I just mentioned, then it allows me to spread optimism and then create impact while making a living. So it's. What's been interesting is I no longer think about climbing the corporate ladder. I really think about success as to your point, not necessarily scaling up and that growth doesn't always mean expansion. Like I can be a successful solopreneur and kind of define what those rules should look like. So I'm very selective in where and how my time is spent. And I think obviously I can't ignore. I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. And my wife is also self employed and a comics creator and works with a lot of nonprofits. Like we, we make it work, but we're moving to Paris where we're hoping there's a slightly lower cost of living, but that we can still have different, different types of work and clients and really figure out a certain lifestyle that would make both of us happy. And so I, I guess I'm trying to. The reason why I talk about this on stage or even in some articles sometimes is I try to, I don't know, I guess poke holes in these older models and definitions where, especially in America, I think bigger is always better. And for me, when I have conversations, most honestly even today, like near Silicon Valley, there's usually this conversation between that people can't have, that they can't have financial stability and feel like they are spending time creating meaningful work. Like it has to be one or the other. And oftentimes it's not something that they're not getting fulfillment or feel like their work has meaning and being able to support their lifestyle. So again, I, for me, it's really poking holes in that, in that model. And I don't know, maybe it's because I'm Parisian and grew up in Europe and there's this thing in me about that work isn't everything and that, that whole thing of like work to live or live to work. And for me, it really has always been about finding just the right balance between. I am a very ambitious person. Like I, I have a strong work ethic. If I go hard on projects, maybe I go hard for a few months, but then I also make time for recharge and rest and recovery and that both of those things are important to me. And just, just look, my definition of success could evolve over time, but that is how I define it right now. And it really is in terms of. I don't know how to describe this, but I guess it's about impact. Figuring out what has meaning and then continuing to reflect on if the things that I'm doing are meeting those goals.
- [50:33]
B
Yeah, I think it's interesting you said I'm poking holes in that concept because you and I are both proves that you can do whatever you want, make you work. It's not always pretty, but it always works. And it's just like as long as you go and really follow the end of the journey or the next checkpoint, you'll get there. Because the way you describe your success and the way you describe it, what you do is, Comes from really much a deep place of empathy. And that's not always present in people who are thinking that they can't do one or the other or that for financial success is one thing and therefore they sacrifice in their values if they have any, they're just going after it from almost a materialistic perspective. Whereas what you decided to do, what you're doing and was to live in proof that you can be person of. With multifaceted interest, multifaceted output, and putting it out there with generosity, kindness and empathy, because you actually care about what you do. And I think that's why I find your definition of success so refreshing. Because both sides of the pond or whatever successes are some rules, like one dimensional. Because it's like, what is it that success means? And usually it's money and how much? For some being able to wake up and just say, look, I'm gonna draw a swan and that's what I'm gonna do today. That's a success. That's for us. You can, we can do things that are almost challenging the conformity of a normal perception of what success can be.
- [51:59]
A
Yeah, I, it's interesting. I, I think we all experienced this big collective traumatic moment five years ago, and I think people are now, We've now had five years and there's almost like people are kind of reverting back to times before then, almost like blocking out how traumatic that was and then approaching how they spend their time a certain way and taking things for granted. And again, I've referred to having health issues and I kind of have chronic health conditions now, but I have experienced a lot of loss, like death in the family and close friends. I have had my own health issues, some scary, traumatic things. And I guess I'm just very conscious of my time on the planet. And I don't mean to sound. Everyone should be thinking this way, like, seize the day, make sure that you're spending time on the right things. I, that's not my point, but I do think spending more time on like, deep reflection, work, pausing more, listening more asking yourself if you're spending time on the right things. And again, you don't have to be an independent practitioner in Order to do that, I think you could, you could have a full time job and still ask yourself if that's something you should be doing. And I, I guess I bring this up a lot because I don't know if this concept is universal or just in the area that I live in, but there's this concept. I'm going to totally butcher what this acronym stands for, but fire, have you heard of this? It's like financial independence. Retire early. And it's this concept where you like, make as much money as possible so that you can retire by your mid-40s or something. Again, anyone who has that goal, I will not judge you. I respect you. And I have a lot of friends who like, want to live like that. But to me, when you, when you think like that, it means that you haven't really had like a traumatic event happen to you, that you're like, you think that you even have time to do something meaningful after your mid-40s and that that's the time when you're gonna fulfill your mission or whatever it is. And so why wait? I guess I think it comes from a huge place of privilege to think that you're gonna even be alive by the time you're in your mid-40s. And I don't know, there's. There's something that has happened to me that I can't unsee or forget easily. And I do think that a lot of people, if they weren't directly affected by Covid, and that was obviously a big, big traumatic event and it changed a lot of people's lives. But now I'm, I'm noticing that more people are like, get. Just getting back to whatever quote unquote normal and forgetting that that happened. And I, I just want people to remember that time is a luxury and to be, I guess, just being more conscious of where your time is going and your energy is going and make sure that you're, you're spending it on the right things because you really never know what could happen. So. Yeah, that's. It's just something I think about a lot. Maybe more than your average person. I don't know.
- [55:13]
B
I think it's a beautiful summary of our conversation because the question that you mentioned, everyone asked that question. Everyone asks themselves that question. Only the lucky ones can ask themselves that question. In early 30s or 40s or 50s. Some people just realized it before it's too late. And I think being able to, to really cherry pick the benefits of where we live, how we work, what we can do, the technology, the elements of understanding from culture, from empathy, asking for help. That's the bit where, when you realize it early, I think that's the true value of creative work, creative careers. Because yeah, life can be absolutely incredible if you make it happen. Rachel, I really enjoyed listening to you today, learning even more that are new. And I really appreciate what you do and how you do it and what you send out into the universe in a way, how you articulate some of these things that can surprise, educate, inform and influence and actually have impact on others. So thank you.
- [56:18]
A
Thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation and I'm really nervous about our move back to France, but I'm hoping that I guess things will just somehow work out and I know it's going to take a lot of work. But yeah, I'm really excited. So again, thanks for having me and hopefully I'll see you over there.
- [56:37]
B
See you soon. Thank you.
- [56:38]
A
Bye.
- [56:49]
B
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.