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- [00:10]
A
Yeah. So in terms of the initiative and like why we started it, it was because the changemaker thing had become industry convention a little bit. Everyone was talking about change, everyone's talking about change maker. We realized that we needed to stand out again. So that was like the main impetus. But also sort of when we did of relaunched the brand in 2019 with that positioning, we sort of went for it, we pushed and we created an entity that was, I guess, divisive even for me. Some days I loved it, sometimes, some days I hated it. And I think over time we realized we sort of, it didn't really reflect crap who we are now because it was just going so hard and we, we felt we're a very different agency now. I think then we're sort of like the outsiders, the sort of challengers. And now we're sort of up there competing with the best in the world.
- [01:06]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinj. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?
- [01:55]
Today I'm speaking with Luke Woodhouse, Executive Creative director at Ragged Edge, a London based studio that makes category defining work. In this conversation, Luke discusses why the best creative work lives in a space where a client feels genuinely uncomfortable. How Ragged Edge makes the concept the creative director to eliminate ego battles by preserving creative ambition. He also opens up the two year journey to rebrand raggedge itself. I got to hear about the process and the benefits. We also talked about real life relationship building with clients who are confident in the unknown. During the process of making bold bets on the future. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Luke Wodehouse.
- [02:47]
Hey Luke, it's great to have you on the show. How are you doing?
- [02:51]
A
Very good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. Long time listener, first time caller.
- [02:54]
B
Luke, it's a pleasure to have you on the show because I am a big fan of Ragged Edge, of what you guys do, how you do it. And it was just about time to get you on the show to talk more about, you know, the evolution of Ragged Edge, the work that you do. And I thought it'd be great to switch the gears today and actually really talk about branding, because you are right in the middle of it, of what's happening right now. So I thought, you know what, let's do that. But if somebody hasn't heard of Luke Woodhouse or raggedge, who are you? What you do? Please introduce yourself.
- [03:23]
A
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Who am I? Yeah. So I'm Luke. I'm one of the executive creative directors at Ragged Edge. I've been at Raggedge for a long time. I think it's about 15 years now. There was just four of us when I joined, and now there's 40 incredible people. And I think the team just keeps getting better and better as we go on, as we figure out what the hell we're doing here. And it's just a real privilege to be part of that and just amazing to be part of this incredibly talented team that we're. We're building here.
- [03:52]
B
Wow. You said 15 years and 14 people. I mean, like, literally four people. When you started seeing a real change in pretty much how agency can grow and change, as well as seeing a shift in branding for the last 15 years, what was the jump to join Ragged Edge and what drew you to the outfit? And what did it feel like 15 years ago to actually be at just something that potentially neither of you knew what you might be building?
- [04:21]
A
Yeah, I think so. That was about 2009, and it was sort of coming out of the tail end of the big sort of recession, and I'd actually been redundant twice in eight months. And as a result of that, I just started freelancing around town and I'd been a few different places. And I sort of landed at Ragged Edge because they had this office in Mayfair. They had some nice clients who are doing nice work. And I could see that sort of.
- [04:46]
B
We.
- [04:46]
A
We sort of had a sort of sort of shared mindset and the kind of work we like to do. So honestly, at that time, it was like, quite modernist in principle. And the projects at Ragged Edge, the typical product was just like, do a nice brand for a nice client and create a nice website for them. So we just had this real nice cycle of projects where we just do the brand, do the website, and then go around again the whole time. We had some nice things from Greg, who's vodka. And so, like, the people at Ragged Edge were great to work with, you know, Max and Matt, the other founder. It was just the work was really great, the people were really great, and I just come from, like, really big agencies where there's, like, unknown five creative directors, all with different opinions and things like that. And I got to Ragged Edge and sort of Max let me sort of take the lead a little bit, and I really enjoyed that. And I guess having my own way with the work, sort of Max was. Max and Matt are really supportive of that, and I just really enjoyed that whole process. And it was quite freeing to come to a much smaller, much, much more agile place. And we just built from there and sort of just tried to get better and better with each project.
- [05:49]
B
Having been on the sidelines watching the progression and evolution of Ragged Edge, would you describe at the beginning is like, nice clients, nice work, nice output, nice website. That's it. But there was this real shift when you guys came out with Your Ragged Edge 2.0.
- [06:04]
A
Yeah.
- [06:04]
B
And said, okay, we're here for the change makers. And lots of conversations had on this podcast with the likes of Apova, Baksi or Simon. It was about the fact that you follow your belief, you follow your messaging, you follow the principles and your values and your strategy, and then the rest of the world shows up and go, hey, we're here for the change makers. And you're like, wait a minute, you know, let's say Dixon and Baxter was about the bravery line of creating brave brands changes the world. And you guys have done that in the past. And I like to believe that was quite successful at first, because what you decided to stand for was very much a statement to say, this is what we're here for.
- [06:43]
A
Yeah, it was a real statement. I think that was a real moment for us because I think up until that point, I guess we'd been. In terms of how we presented ourselves to the world, we perhaps didn't necessarily put out a really strong point of view, and we were just like, I guess, which sort of arguably, looking at the outside influences and things like that, and I guess we sort of always felt like we're outsiders. And the way we had presented Ragged Edge up to that point had been sort of almost trying to fit in with what a branding agency should be and look like. And it was quite nice. But honestly, the way we sort of. The sort of work that we really believed in, the sort of work we really wanted to do, wanted to do stuff that was really different, stuff that really drives. Stuff that really drives, like, meaningful change for a business. And we knew that to do that, you had to be sort of really bold. You had to put yourself out there, and you needed to push to do Something different. And that's something that we always like really naturally believed in, but perhaps we didn't. We had up to that point we had never quite articulated it in such a strong way. And so it was a real statement and we really went for it and we really put out this really strong point of view and presented it in such a way. And that worked incredibly well for us because it meant that clients became sort of self selecting, meaning that people who shared that mindset, people who shared that belief and that ambition would come to us and we wouldn't be. It meant that we weren't like pushing this philosophy on them. They were already sort of believers and they already wanted to work with people who believe the same thing. And so, yeah, for a period of time, that positioning, that change maker thing, that was working so well for us. And yeah, I mean, when we did it, honestly, we sort of built the brand around this idea of being a brand for change makers because no one else was using that language, no one else was talking like that. And yet after a period of time, everyone else seems to sort of seemingly came to a similar conclusion, which meant that we had to like, look for a way to stand out again. And that was the point of this latest rebrand.
- [08:42]
B
It's interesting what you said about self selecting clients. I think it's literally like when you stand for something, there will be some people for you and some people against you. But that's okay because obviously you've got those people who actually can understand what you're trying to achieve. Because how would you say the mindset of a natural change maker? Because of course we still have the people who are self selecting or who are self believing in them being a change makers. But how is the mindset of people who are actually trying to do things for the good of the planet or for the good of the human society? How would you say that the language and the belief and the philosophies of such clients has changed? Or are we in the 2.0 of change makers? How would you see that?
- [09:24]
A
I think those people have always been there and always will be. And there'll always be clients that just need the sort of safer thing, appealing to a particular common denominator. Those will always exist, but I think we know that those sorts of clients probably aren't for us. Or rather we would rather be pushing for something different and more creative and interesting and all of that. And so I think like the mindset that we always look for is first of all, the people who are kind of confident, like in the unknown and. And are trusting of the process, that if we travel across this sort of, like, unknown territory, that we'll get to somewhere really good if we just sort of push forward with the idea and the strategy and all of that good stuff. So it's the sort of mindset is the people who sort of really believe in what could be and sort of care less about, you know, what has been and what other people are doing. But also, I think what we notice is that on the client side, you need people who really know their own mind and are comfortable making decisions. And I think also in terms of getting this work through on the client side, you need people who are willing to, like, really push and really commit to this thing and sort of arguably put their neck on the line a little bit.
- [10:42]
B
You said something really interesting. You said they need to be confident in the unknown. And that is a big ask. How much of the work sometimes do you have to do to make people feel confident in the unknown? Because the unknown is very much the unknown.
- [10:56]
A
Yeah.
- [10:57]
B
Labor in the obvious.
- [10:59]
A
Yeah. I think part of that comes down to building really good relationships with the client. And so the start of the project's really important. The immersion is really important. I think we found that getting together in real life is kind of crucial at the start of a project to build that relationship. So we have clients these days sort of in all different parts of the world, but. And so it would be easy not to get together in real life, but we found that is something that's really important when you want to sort of travel across these unknown territories with people, you sort of have to have that relationship so you can sort of have really good conversations about what it could be, where it could go, and sort of trust each other that we're all pushing for the best of the work. And so I think being confident in the unknown just sort of means trusting the process and knowing that we'll get through it together and working through it together.
- [11:54]
B
I think we both agree that the process of being a designer, being a creative or brand director on ecd, it's part of therapist. It's part of a guiding line of trust us. This will go well. Because there is something in our psychology, when we're doing something for ourselves, we are doubting ourselves, like, oh, this blue, that blue. But when we're working for other people, most of us, I don't want to sort of generalize this too much, but there is an element of confidence. And because you are focused, you're in your executive mind, and therefore you focus in on the task ahead and you don't necessarily entertain the ifs and buts and reckon this go wrong and kind of because you try you there to deliver. And as you said, you know, traveling and seeing clients in real life, it strengthens that relationship. Because what's really interesting, what you just said leads back to episode. I just published this week with was with Joel Pilger who's an advisor to studios and he says you can work from anywhere, but you can't get work from anywhere because to make meaningful work you need relationships, you need to travel, you need to work in clients shoes. How much of the travel and how much of that experience for you as an ECD do you get with these clients and how has it changed your process, especially with the travel and seeing clients? Because once upon a time it's, it's easy to get a brief through an email and going let's do it and hope for the best.
- [13:09]
A
To be honest, it hasn't really changed the process loads. We just sort of choose to do certain parts of the process in real life and there are different parts. Where do you get the most benefit from being in the same room and doing the work together in the same room? So in terms of the process, that'd be like near the beginning, like in the immersion, once you've kicked off. And then another really important part would be initial concepts. Whether that's territories for strategy or concepts for the identities. Those are the moments where conversations you have and the work you do on the work is best had all in the same room. Because sort of, I suppose, because those are the moments when the ideas at their most delicate and the sort of nuance in the conversation and being able to really understand everyone is so crucial to the direction the work could take. Because I think, you know, on zoom being remote, you know, things can get lost in translation. So yeah, those are the moments that we sort of choose to be in the same room.
- [14:08]
B
So how does it work in practical way when you're in the concept stages, when the idea is delicate and there's a lot of nuance, is the client involved? Do they come to you or do you come to them? For this initial period? The reason why I asked this question and the reason why I want to know the answer to this is that when it's delicate and it's nuanced and it's messy and it's not there yet, and I'm going to paraphrase Johnny, I sometimes ideas can be killed by people with opinions who try to prove their worth. So you're getting people involved in a very tricky stage where anything goes, but is it too many cooks?
- [14:42]
We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lax Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lax Coffee Company offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. You can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah, I love that quote. That's a good one. In terms of how, like, the logistics of it, sometimes we go to them, sometimes they come to us. Yesterday we had a client in our office yesterday that had come over from Norway and we had a really good workshop and went out for drinks and things last night. And I think next time they're talking about taking us to Barcelona for the next round of presentation. And it's just. We just work it out and sort of take it in turns a little bit. Sometimes they come to us, sometimes we go to them and just try to make it work for everyone who's on the project, our team and their team as well. So it's pretty, pretty relaxing. We just work it out.
- [16:09]
B
So let's kind of forward it to where you are with Raggedge now, because you've recently refreshed your branding, rebranded. The language has changed, the visual stuff has changed and now the website says, never be the same again. The first time I had Max speak in, like, 2018, 2019. No, that was before the 2.0. It was like, look, we're going to rebrand because we wanted do something for ourselves that we do for our clients. As you've quite beautifully explained earlier, this is what's happened and now you ended up in what is now 3.0. It's taken a while, I believe, because it's always never the process that goes fast. But if we can start from the top, where is the initiative? What is the sort of review of the studio so far and how do you decide on where do you go next with it?
- [16:56]
A
Yeah. So in terms of the initiative and, like, why we started it, it was because, yeah, the changemaker thing had become sort of industry conventional a little bit. Everyone was talking about change, everyone's talking about changemaker. We realized that we needed to stand out again. So that was like the main impetus. But also sort of when we did sort of relaunch the brand in 2019 with that positioning. We sort of went for it, we pushed and we created an entity that was, I guess, divisive, even for me. Some days I loved it, sometimes, some days I hated it. And I think over time we had realized we sort of. It didn't really reflect who we are now because it was just going so hard and we. We felt we were a very different agency now. I think then we're sort of like the outsiders, the sort of challengers, and now we're sort of up there competing with the best in the world, I think. And so we sort of needed a brand and identity that sort of reflected that positioning a bit better and felt a bit more true to who we are. And, yeah, so we were just, in terms of how we started with strategy, and as Max said, we tried to do what we did for clients. Intentions were good. We wanted to run it like a proper project. And it probably ended up taking about two years, like from start to finish. Obviously we weren't working on it the whole time, but as with anything, internal client work would come along. That's the first thing to get bumped and pushed along. So, yeah, that's sort of like how and why we started and how and why it took so long.
- [18:25]
B
How dependent is the rebrand for new business? Is it something nice to have, or did you see it as an important thing to have?
- [18:34]
A
I would say it's a very important thing to have is pretty crucial. And I would say that it was quite frustrating. The delay was quite frustrating because we felt we knew that our. What our new brand was going to become would work really hard for us. And so, yeah, I would say it is really crucial. Yeah.
- [18:54]
B
Did you ever think of getting a third party involved, like getting someone else's view, someone else's input? Because in the past, I've seen design studios rebranding other design studios because someone is too close to it. So that was my thought. Did you ever think of anyone to break the deadlock?
- [19:11]
A
Yeah, we did a little bit. We brought in a freelance designer who we really love working with to, like, help give us a little boost sort of in the middle of it. And that was great because it just meant that we could just have someone outside of the studio moving it forward for us. They gave us a real good boost and got it moving and then we picked it up again with the team in ours. So, yeah, that helped. And I sort of really love the idea of doing that. Like, the famous one is how Bibliotech Doing moving brands at nc, which is iconic. Love the idea of it, but also sort of want to do it ourselves as well, you know, don't want to give it away.
- [19:45]
B
Be proud of what you've created. I want to skip ahead before I come back, but obviously now it's out in the open. It was quite well documented in design press. People talked about it extensively. Now we've established that it's an important thing to have. What was the outcome? What was the sort of uplift on the business and results to see? Oh, is it something that trickles down a bit slower?
- [20:06]
A
Honestly, it was kind of immediate. There's a very direct line between us launching our new website and it winning us work because we're in the middle of rebranding someone. Obviously that's what we do all the time. But one of our clients saw our new website and just literally said, send us a quote for one of those, please. And that, that's the feedback you want, right? Immediate direct results that you can tangibly tie back to business impact. And that has. That was the best compliment. Yeah.
- [20:33]
B
As you know, the theme of the podcast is there in creativity, there in forever. And I believe that very much what we self initiate will be sort of send out to the universe comes back to us. Because as you just said, we were rebranding the client. That's what we do about it. It's easy to be stuck in that sort of endless cycle because you know, so many studios, including yours, like I spoke to Max about like thinking, are you guys launching your own products? Are you doing this? I speak to other sort of founders, they're like, well, we know everyone, we know where to get stuff done, we know how to do xyz. We can have zillions of our own products, but we never have the time to do it. So it's quite nice that when you, when everyone's got sort of refreshed boost of energy, there's a new brand. It feels right, magical. Right? I mean that must have been for like, hey, you're gonna finally do hit of dopamine when you press go. The website launched everything out there. Thank God for that. And then seeing almost immediate response because I always believe, and this is a whole idea for the podcast and for the book is do the thing that you would otherwise regret never starting. And I think, you know, sort of initiating this and actually pushing and knowing that you need it. And it was great to hear from you that not in previous brand was divisive and you didn't always like it on the Outside it was like, hey, I seems to be still out there. Maybe it's all fine, but no one really knows what happens behind the closed doors.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah, I think that's the thing with branding. I think you said earlier that there's so many opinions kill great ideas. But I think the mistake that some people make is that when you're creating a brand, it's not about personal taste or sometimes it's not even really about esthetics. It's about the idea and the story you want to tell and what's the correct story that you want the brand to tell for your business. And I think, yeah, following too many personal opinions when you're doing a project like this can lead to weaker work. And that that's really hard to do.
- [22:27]
B
I can imagine what you guys did with the new website. I've noticed that you just added what normally marketing agencies would do. Just have a little stat. Or like a design agency or company agency would say, Hey, 92% of days of no 50 million clicks on this and that. And the design corner of my industry were like, oh, this is clever. And I'm thinking, and this is no sort of. It's not disrespectful. Like, no shade on this. Like, what you guys did, you was you bring in elements of different industry and different knowledge and different UX pieces together to say, you know what, this is the outcome of the work. Because once upon a time, and I'm sure we'll agree on this one, a good rebrand was the one that was liked by a few people. It was like, okay, we agree, this is a nice rebrand, and then whatever happens and in five years, something new might happen. Whereas we live in a world where data is measurable, data's present results are very much measurable, and this is ultimately what we're working towards. Like, actually a rebrand or branding or enabling businesses to succeed is the primary purpose most of the time. So with the even just a little nugget of thinking, how do you present this to passerbys to say, hey, we do work that works? What was the logic behind just adding the proof of success?
- [23:45]
A
Yeah, it did make us laugh that people picked up on that in such a big way, because we're definitely not the first people to do that. Like, you say that's something that we've seen in other industries and everything else, but I think, like, in terms of why, it's something that we've always really believed in, like the power of branding to transform businesses. And honestly, it's the Motivation for me personally using creativity to create this incredible value in real life and have these brands work in real life. One of the, one of the things I most enjoyed when Hacking days was just four people doing a brand and website. The stats before and after were really easily trackable and you could see that, you know, we increased conversion by 400% sometimes with those small brands that we were working on back then. The numbers were crazy often and that is really inspiring to me personally. But of course that's why we do it, everyone. It's really hard to attribute the value of brand to business results because it is, it's in the ether a little bit, isn't it? It's in feet, it's all feelings. But we can sort of, we can try our best to track that. And I think the trying to find the right stat that is attributable to the brand work as strongly as possible is a bit of a challenge sometimes. But we see that, you know, a week after Wise launched, all the numbers are going up and to the right and the conversions have gone up 10% and the only thing that's changed is the brand. So we all know it's real and just trying to find the numbers where we could prove that is is the game.
- [25:16]
B
I think what happens in the world of creativity, especially like if someone's too close to creating a brand, and I think generally that's also a problem with creativity and humans, is that sometimes we are too close to it and we get too emotional about what we've created, often in a vacuum. I think if someone reacts emotionally to a change of feedback and takes it really badly, it's like, how do you remove yourself? Like how do you understand that you are not doing it for yourself? There's still so much verbal punch up across LinkedIn and Instagram, client this and client, they've changed the color, they've changed this. But what we're here to talk about is really the fact that it needs to work. You know, like the subjective feeling about this. Sometimes you just need to let go. And I think that's been one of the biggest sort of themes of this season so far is like letting go and focusing on the actual principles and business application is something that really matters. Otherwise you can really eat yourself alive. If you think about it that, you know, it needs to be just the way you thought about it.
- [26:19]
A
Yeah, absolutely. That's like the age old conundrum for creative people really to celebrate, to separate your sense of self worth from the work. And I think that's something that we will try and encourage is tricky because you've got these insanely talented people pushing, working really hard to do the best work they could possibly do and then asking them to like, almost separate any feelings from it, which is just, it's. It's so hard, isn't it? But I think what we try and talk about with, when you talk about our no egos approach to collaboration is that is just about the work. We're just talking about the work. Good ideas can come from anywhere, can come from anyone, and all we care about is really trying to do what's right for the idea. And we try and say that, like the concept is the creative director. It's not about personal opinion, it's not about you. It's not, you know, sometimes it's not even really about aesthetics and what you like. It's about pushing to communicate the idea in the strongest way possible. And that's sort of like. I think that helps a little bit to get some separation where you can. But yeah, it's hard.
- [27:25]
B
In the 15 years going from four to 40, how was it your jump into your role to going from a designer to being an ECD and now having a team that wants to instill that sort of no ego collaboration and what happens when inevitably we get emotional and we want to push something through? So how do you deal with that and how does it go?
- [27:45]
A
I mean, it's a good thing, right? Got real, really passionate people and it's never a big problem or anything like that. I think one thing that we've found that works really well with the sort of bigger client teams that we're working with, often the client teams we're working with come with in house design teams who are incredibly talented and amazing at what they do as well. And so one thing we found is that keeping the work rougher, looser, faster at the start of the project, and inviting the clients in a little bit more so they can help sort of feel they are helping shape and direct and contribute to the work in a meaningful way. Works in two ways. Sort of helps the client feel really part of the team, but also it does help our team sort of get less attached and less precious to something amazing that they've created right at the start of the project. So it's sort of easier to let go. I think we talk about those concepts being strong opinions, but loosely held. So we go in with big exaggerated ideas. They're strong opinions. We'll try and talk clients into it, but we hold them very loosely so that we can, we're free to change our minds as we learn, as we get more information, as we move through the work.
- [29:00]
B
As you know, I would like to talk about some of the projects in a second but I still have to stay for one more point on, on the website because I had to look through it just before we started speaking, I had to look for it again. And all of the case studies are so rich and so deep and so full of storytelling and actually explaining what happened and how and why. How much of an importance is there on a case study these days to explaining to people? Because going back to very initial sort of your responses, you serve, you said some of our clients are self selecting with the mindset. You know, some of our clients are sort of relating to this. So how much of a work and importance do the case studies online still have in a world that works on more partnerships and collaborations and relationships and a business relationship? So I want to know that because they are amazing. It's clearly a ton of work gone into it. But I wanted to know if from your. If you know, even from data like how much of these actually are converters or just elements that seal the deal when someone comes to you and just look for what you do.
- [30:00]
A
Yeah, there are marketing, they're important.
- [30:05]
The case studies are what winners the next project. And so, yeah, you're only as good as your last project. Right. And sort of that's how we see it and sort of telling the story in the best way possible is really important to us and sort of helps paint a picture for those new clients for what we could potentially could do for them. And sort of, I think, yeah, talking about why and how not just, you know, pretty pictures at the end is really important because yeah, I think the way we work is very strategic, very conceptual and sort of helping communicate the value of that behind the work is really important and something that people really like. People don't. People don't care about design. They love ideas and stories and that's the stuff that gets you excited. Yeah, the design is just the vehicle for that. So yeah, they work, they're important to us and how we sort of win new work.
- [30:56]
B
Yeah, because I've definitely noticed they have grown bigger, bolder, richer since the last website. The last website had some of the stuff saying and it was real focus what Mark told me about verbal, sort of verbal storytelling and verbal branding. And I think we've got, I think now there's a sort of perfect sort of split between the 50, 50 that the visuals, they really do some of the heavy Lifting and it's fantastic. It looks really good. So I want to talk to you about some of the projects. Let's start with a project number one I can see on the website it's for Palmetto and it's for making clean energy irresistible. And what's really interesting when it goes to your tagline, never be the same again. When I see Palmetto, I'm thinking Vespas, I'm thinking something very much a lifestyle aspect rather than renewable energy companies. So let's go into it a little bit. Like how did it come about and how did you guys work on it?
- [31:53]
A
Yeah, well, I love that project. I'm really proud of that one. I didn't, I didn't lead it. That was pull out the team on that one as Andrew, Matt, Christy fear led that one. And I think what's really smart about that is that they have created a lifestyle brand for an energy company. And if you think about it really, I suppose how you use energy is such a crucial part of your lifestyle, why not? And I think the insight there is that sort of renewable energy, conserving energy, doing all those things that are really good for the planet has been about, had a bit of a scarcity mindset about it. It's about always about using less. Whereas I think the idea behind Palmetto is that this renewable, you can use it and not feel guilty about it and you can do whatever you want and live your life in the most abundant way possible. And this brand is there to facilitate that and make you feel good about it rather than make you feel bad about the environment. You know, that's quite a punchy idea. Some people might even find that offensive. But I think the reality is that people are selfish and that will really speak to lots of people who want to do something good but also feel really good doing it with the work.
- [33:03]
B
That you guys been doing. Obviously, like if you've seen a real change from heavily print based work, I would say, you know, from the world of branding 15 years ago now to things that are more sort of UI based, more digitally based. And I think with the example, let's say of Palmetto and I'm sorry I picked a project that you didn't work on.
- [33:21]
Just realize that what is the evolution of brand and what's the evolution of working because you're working with different touch points, with different surfaces, different sort of applications. Yeah, this wasn't an overnight change, but like how does this make the initial stages and planning different to what it was, let's say 15 years ago?
- [33:38]
A
Yeah, I think sort of in Raggedy's history, we've always done all of that. We've always sort of done the print things and had a hand in digital. That's a big part of our DNA, I suppose. And so we've always had this aptitude for the digital side of things and digital products. And I think one thing that we've got really good at over the time is working out how a brand will show up in the product and the digital product and working with design teams to really systemize that. So that I think the sort of trend is with digital products, they sort of get. They sort of all start to look the same, don't they? It's all about reducing the cognitive load and being invisible and seamless. Whereas with branding, it's about the opposite. It's about disrupting your attention. And so we're quite good at finding the balance that works in those digital spaces. But in terms of, like, the planning and the process and how that changes things, we do build in sort of moments for like, quite deep collaboration with product teams, with internal design teams, where we just have a little pause on creating new things and start playing with the things that we have and sort of push and pull and apply things to the product in a way that really stress tests the elements in the brand codes to sort of see what's working, see what's not working, see if there's any gaps, see what needs to tweak. Because I think with the digital stuff, some of the visual things that can make a big difference are tiny little details that can make it make a product feel really slick or really clumsy and crowded. And so, yeah, we just build in deep collaboration about three quarters of the way through. And I'd say that's a little difference that we've seen over the past, I don't know, five years, something that we've been building more and more into the process.
- [35:25]
B
I love what you said. You said balance in digital spaces, when worlds collide. When you think of traditional designers now working in digital spaces or towards digital spaces now, the word product means something different to what it meant 15 years ago.
- [35:40]
A
Yeah, it does, yeah.
- [35:41]
B
And what you guys achieve with Wise is really remarkable because the product, the interface, every touch point feels very ownable. It feels like nothing else. And you can never get lost with WISE going, what website am I on? Like, it feels so much of its own kind. And reading the case study like that has been rolled out in 175 countries. That is a mammoth of a project. Let's talk about a balance in digital spaces and how do you get to achieve them?
- [36:13]
A
Well, yeah, it's, I mean, first of all, Wise did such an incredible job of doing that. They've got an amazing team in Cam, Nicky, Josh, Kyo, Priya, Rosie, all those people like did work so hard to push that through and definitely wouldn't have happened without their commitment to doing that. It would have been much easier. It would be much easier to do something easier. But yeah, in terms of how do we make it work across all those countries, I think Wise has the benefit of a global team. They've got sort of a 200 person design team all around the world. And so at different points those people all contributed to the branding project in different ways, big or small. And so it meant that they were all like aware of the path it was taking, the direction it was heading and were able to influence it. And that was really important to the integrity of it. What we're trying to do, we're trying to create a brand, a truly global brand. And having those input, those diverse inputs was crucial to that sort of manifesting in the, the final thing, when I.
- [37:14]
B
Think about when the brand, what the rebrand came out, it went from transfer wise to Wise. You know, it did. It almost felt like the rollout on the outside for quite minimal because I think, I think it'd be fair to say that there's always a rush to get a case study ready when the rebrand's out there. It's very fresh, it hasn't matured, you know, it's just got, it's just, it's still quite a bit sort of sometimes rough around the edges. But the initial spike of interest and excitement is there. So with this coming out, did you feel that you are actually hitting something which is a studio defining project?
- [37:49]
A
No. We had no idea what the reception was going to be like. We had, there had been some testing, but we were testing for distinctiveness. We weren't necessarily testing for do you like this? And we had sort of put Wise and regulars would put ourselves out there with what we had gone for is like incredibly bold and distinctive. I think people in the studio here who weren't working on the project was telling me this is going to be big, this is amazing. And I was like, oh God, I don't know. And yeah, so we had said no idea. And the client camp, the client had three scenarios for his career. If it went well or if it went wrong or somewhere in between. He. We sort of just didn't really know. Yeah. But luckily it Went well.
- [38:33]
B
That's incredible because. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you could be too close to it and even know, you know, if it's where it is. But it's been. I mean, we all know it's been a great success. It's been imitated endlessly.
- [38:45]
A
I know, yeah. It's so funny.
- [38:47]
B
It seems like the world has adapted just to one sort of color theme and it's just, let's do this. And sometimes you feel like, really? Why? I mean, have we just. Have we sort of democratized the design and branding and the design system so much that it feels like it just becomes a new status quo. Therefore, that's where we all should start. Because as you said, it was tested for distinctiveness and that worked. But then it just can get hijacked by others going, well, if that was good idea, maybe we should have the same.
- [39:14]
A
I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it? People forget what branding is for and they confuse or they conflate aesthetics with ideas. And I think Gin Lane aren't going anymore. But they were famous for doing things like Hims, which is like the fastest ever sort of startup to unicorn brand, and they came out with this very premium, very slick, very beautiful, what we would call now a bland. But that's not what was clever about it. What was clever is they took this really sort of, sort of divisive subject matter and made it really accessible. And that's the clever bit, not what it looked like. And then you had this whole trend of people copying the aesthetic without the clever bit. And that's not how it works. So, yeah, it's quite funny to see people copying the aesthetic of Wise when you need to start with the idea.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah, I think it's quite seducing, what should I say? Quite seductive for a designer or creative team with, not to the depth of the knowledge, just to actually borrow that sort of veneer and say, okay, well, this makes us look good. Whereas as you said, for example, the Hims, it's more about, how do you define something in the category? How do you do that? Because that requires a different way. Sometimes you see a designer trying to make things minimal and they just like that thing. But again, like, everyone's learning, everyone's growing, everyone's discovering, you know, yeah, we've all.
- [40:33]
A
Done it and it's very tempting and it's, it's, it's hard to push beyond that. And of course, for some things, it'll be the perfectly, perfectly good thing to do. Just make something beautiful, make something simple. And. And it will work. But yeah, with branding is the game is to be unique and stand out so you get noticed.
- [40:52]
B
Speaking of which, next project I would like to talk about, which is the one I know you worked on and we talked about in person about it when I saw you last, is the Soul Flare. Because not only you talk about a whole new category of branding which you couldn't imagine, none of the team or four, 15 years ago, cryptocurrency was nowhere near to where it is today. And as you know from our conversation, and I'll bring it here on a record, it's like I was fascinated with just what you had to do in a way and how it was rolled out. The whole intricacy of the application and whole, let's say, the different ecosystem and sort of subset of branding that you wouldn't really expect years ago. It's a project that, yeah, it's going to. Blew my mind, especially the more I spoke about with you about it. Got to see more behind the scenes of what this all entails. So since we got a chance to revisit that conversation, I think we should, because I would say crypto will never be the same again after this one.
- [41:48]
A
Yeah, maybe not, I think. Yeah. I mean, that's an incredible project to have worked on because the clients were amazing. They knew what they wanted, they knew their minds and they're incredibly decisive as well. So they're really inspiring people to work with and they came to us sort of knowing they need to do something different. I think the funny thing with crypto is that is probably an easier space to do something different because if you look at it as a whole, there's, you know, lots of purple gradients and beautiful, simple sans serif things and yeah, it all very much looks the same. So the sort of clear space was doing something different within the category. There's opportunities there. And with Soul Flare, sort of, they knew they wanted to put out a particular personality, they wanted to come and really challenge what crypto is known for, which is, you know, often a bit of a lack of integrity and like things like rug pulls and ripping people off and scammers and things like that. There's a lot of that in that world and Soulflare really stand against that and they build a. Built a product that is incredibly safe, incredibly secure and sort of has their users best interests in mind at all time, often at the expense of potentially sort of bigger commercial results. For Solflare, if they wanted to pursue the slightly shadier side of things, which they absolutely do not. And they had some really inspiring stories for some of their users where crypto is like really important to their life because they might live in countries where their governments aren't as trustworthy and could sort of reach into their bank accounts at any moment. And crypto is like one way to keep their assets secure. So there's real important use cases out there amongst the. Amongst their users that were really inspiring to us for the project.
- [43:31]
B
What great story to actually hear, especially from someone who doesn't know too much about crypto, apart from, you know, the horror stories and NFTs. Yeah. How we can work towards someone's security. That's amazing. The tagline that you've got in here which says, in every wallet, a kingdom, on every head, a crown. Is it something that you guys created?
- [43:51]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I think in terms of the concept we landed on, the positioning, we sort of defined the idea behind the Soulflare brand as the stronghold of the free. So this vision of perhaps what banks used to stand for, this incredibly high moral purpose, and sort of Soulflare has the safest wallet on Solana, and so we felt like they could credibly own that territory. And the huge benefit with Solflare is that it's self custody, meaning you are. You own your own stuff. And sort of, if you have your money in a bank, they can sort of invest it without you even knowing about it. They use your money in different ways. Whereas, like with crypto, and particularly with Soulflare, what's yours is yours. And so sort of what that line really means is that you are the king of your own kingdom or queen or whatever, and you're in charge of your own stuff. So in every wallet, your whole kingdom, and on every head, your own crown.
- [44:52]
B
I mean, it perfectly works because when I see the rest of the design system that plays into, visually, into that storytelling, into that vision of what you can own and mostly how you can feel. Because in a way of creating these visuals, especially in such a purple gradient. San Serious face, as you just said, creating something that has got so much of a rich storytelling. How much of that do you need to push to the client or convince the client, or was the client just going, yeah, we don't want to be purple. Can we just be something?
- [45:25]
A
So those guys were pushing us to do something different. We knew they wanted to be brave and they wanted to really stand out and they knew that they were challenging the category as a whole. And so they wanted to put that message out there. And so that definitely came very much from them and their direction. And we're there to facilitate and have and push them as well. So I would say it's very much like a back and forth relationship in that regard, of course. Well, what we find is that at certain points in the project where the clients have to make a decision, they have to really commit to this reality that we're building for them. It gets real basically, at one, at some point. And then you sort of realize that, oh, we're gonna have to go for this now or not. And that's the point where we might have to talk them into it, or we might have to sort of remind them why they started this project in the first place, or we might just have to do some testing, which is what we did with Soulflare. And so like, we got to this point and the guys.
- [46:30]
And Philip were like, oh my God, are we gonna do this? And so had a little wobble, but we did a little bit of testing with their users with some. Some anonymized testing and different things. We tested it against whole bunch of different stuff and we tested it against the competitors for. We did test it for distinctiveness, but we also had to just test it. Are you inspired by this? Would you buy this? Do you like this? Which is quite tricky to do with testing because it's just a bit of a lottery sometimes. But the results came back really strongly in favor of this new brand. And it just gave them the confidence to press forward, which was a really great thing to do. And with these, with our clients, often the founders, they have to be so brave to do this. And I have so much respect and admiration for our clients that do make these big bold bets on the brand working with us because it's their baby, it's their business. Often they're working with Ragged Edge because it's already a successful business, it's already going fine, and they want to shake things up even more often for the benefit. But it can get scary. And the people. I've just got so much respect for the people that continue to push on, do that. It's amazing to see. And yeah, they're an inspiring team, so love them.
- [47:41]
B
It's really interesting what you just said, and I like the words big bold bets. And I'll come down to come back to them in one second. But the way you. As we talked about it a short while ago, we talked about adding just the validators or the social order, the work improves to your website. Like, okay, you know, this has actually achieved some data. This is actually why this has Been this, to have this testing, obviously at the stages where the founders might be a little bit, you know, having a wobble and thinking, oh, we have something new. And, you know, it is again, the confident in the unknown. It's just, this is the new version where even yourself couldn't really see how wise could be good because you're in it. You must be your product focus or your design focus. Was you in it and you can't see outside. And our brains at that stage haven't really had time to understand and actually, you know, grow the understanding of the work. And, you know, when something feels really different, always feel that you're onto something, because if it feels too obvious, sometimes you're like, oh, this is safe, you know, we can borrow the veneer and this is safe. But when you're doing something different within the space, would you agree that it's sometimes a signal that you're doing something which is uneasy or feels weird? It's a potentially signal that you're onto something.
- [48:57]
A
Absolutely. And I think different is new and new is unfamiliar. Unfamiliar is uncomfortable. And that's a really good thing. So that, that feeling uncomfortable when you're faced with something different, that's a really good sign. And I think the challenge there is to sort of remember the purpose, remember the job that this brand needs to do for the business. And is this piece of work that we're looking at, is that going to help move the needle and get us to where we need to get to?
- [49:28]
B
When you think about uncomfortable, normal, it's a bit like resilience. Yeah, yeah, resilience is important, but no one wants to feel resilient. Like, of course, uncomfortable sounds like a great idea, but who wants to feel uncomfortable?
- [49:40]
A
Like, I think, I think getting comfortable, feeling uncomfortable is crucial. And then you can start to enjoy it and then you can start to have fun with it. But remembering that that is the whole point is the key.
- [49:52]
B
Because obviously with my previous question was like, there was a validation, obviously when you build business and you get the user, the testers, the focus group, whoever, like research validated, you're onto something. It's obviously half a battle is almost one, because you're going to bring something to the market that potentially is going to like to work.
- [50:12]
My real curiosity was when I was going through the case study, there's this whole element of the social media takeovers, brand celebrations, all of that stuff, and you're thinking, oh, so you can create on your polished case study, obviously the brand architecture is fixed and everything's looking great. Fresh and new, and then it meets the user and it goes, wow, we're going to take and we're going to make our own. And you've got no controller of this. So whilst you're at a branding stage, obviously, trying to control this, you know, working with founders, also making sure that when they make their big bold bets, you know that part is right. And then it goes into the public and you're like, well, we just have to accept what they do with it because ultimately is what it means to them is the true understanding of doing something right.
- [50:57]
A
Yeah, that was amazing response to see and we absolutely loved it, I think. Yeah. Before this project, I didn't really know anything about crypto either, but what I've found is that the community, particularly on X, as it's called now, is so vibrant and so engaged. And seeing the responses to the brand was so interesting because what we've done for Soul Flare is. Is quite conceptual. There's a rich story there and they just picked up that story and ran with it and put their own spin on it and really embraced all of the ideas that sort of went into building that brand. And it's just incredible to see what they do. There's like nearly a new one, nearly a new meme created by one of their users, one of their fans, every day. And it's just incredible to see that engagement and see people pick up on the idea like that.
- [51:42]
B
There's no need for any future validation of the. Of the system, because if you get people doing their own thing of their own accord and so happily and with a love and support, I think that gets you validated, that what you've done makes perfect sense. Look, it's great to have you here today to tell me more about what you do. You can easily unpick a few more of your projects, but I know I need to let you go. Thank you for sharing with me what you guys do and how you do it and where do you. We've seen your progression from 15 years ago to today and being excited maybe about the next 15 years. So I don't normally ask about how do you see future or where we headed, but I think, yeah, that potentially feels quite adequate in this instance because you've seen the change for the last 15 years till about the next 15 months in the world of branding. Yeah, yeah.
- [52:33]
A
Well, it's a big moment, isn't it, with the sort of all of the AI things coming through and how are we going to make use of that? I think getting good at utilizing those tools is going to be really important and crucial to what we do. But remembering the core purpose of branding is do something different and finding ways to sort of use AI to facilitate the creative process. But the I don't know if it's just like the sort of clients we're working with these days, but I think seeing the lines blur between agency and in house teams so that we're working a bit more as like one team is probably the trend I've seen gathering momentum over the last five years and I would see that continuing and that's just a great way to work because the clients are experts on their business. They're the ones that are gonna get this work through, get this work live, get this in the hands of the users. And so for us that's a big focus. Bringing those teams sort of into the project team more closely is probably the trend where we building on and maybe will be the biggest difference of the last 15 years. Working more closely with the clients, I think.
- [53:38]
B
Thank you so much. Love it, absolutely love it. And I'm always excited to see what comes up next from Ranking Edge because you've achieved something which is some studios would almost dream about. What you've set out to achieve is happening is working and yeah, it's nice to have a conversation about it. And I've just said I'm just looking forward to the next 15 months because the next 15 years, who knows what will change and what will happen next.
- [53:59]
A
But yeah, well thank you so much for having me. It's real privilege to be invited on and yeah, I love your podcast. Yeah, been listening to it for a long time and yeah, amazing to be part of it now. So thank you so much for having me.
- [54:09]
B
It's been a real pleasure having you. Thank you.
- [54:11]
A
Cheers. R.
- [54:22]
B
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinej. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Likes podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode.
- [55:06]
If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast, have a look around and start living daringly.