← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
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- [00:09]
A
You still succeeded and positive things came out of that. Bring all the bad, good and ugly out of it. You're still moving forward. I think I'm continually learning to let myself be seen and supported. I obviously isolated myself for a lot of years because of the tactics I learned growing up to survive with dyslexia. I'm learning to let the people around me help me and support because it's. That's the other thing with the collage practice is that it's enabled me to realize that leaning into my family friends is not an intellectual thing. I need to do it on a gut level in order to sustain the business that I'm trying to move forward and for it to have longevity.
- [01:06]
B
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, the show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinich. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create? Today I'm speaking with Sarah Ellen Masters, who struggled in the school system due to dyslexia to build a business around the very practice that healed her. Now a collage artist and founder of Collei, her journey spans shameful classrooms and years of self isolation to lead in workshops that offer the safe, supportive space she never had, always learning alongside her participants, never above them. In this conversation, Sarah explores why collage asks nothing of perfection, how diary entries became her visual morning pages, and why people are starving for hands on connection in a screen saturated world. It's my pleasure to share with you a conversation with Sarah Allen Masters. Hey Sarah, it's great to see you today. How are you doing? Welcome to Daring Creativity.
- [02:52]
A
I'm really good, thank you. It's an honor to be here.
- [02:55]
B
You're most welcome. I'm excited to change gears today because I feel like you're in a category of one. I feel like what you do is singular. I don't know anybody who does what you do. So for those who might not know what I know, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:11]
A
I'm a collage artist, a workshop facilitator, and a founder of Kilay, which is a business that I started last year on the basis of Just sharing the joy of collage that I found for myself and using it as a tool to be more mindful and reclaiming permission to be creative. I would say this is, I mean,
- [03:34]
B
we are in a category of one because I haven't heard many people recently say, you know, I've got joy for collage. So how do we trace it back from the beginning of you discovering creativity to where you are now starting college a year ago, to now discovering the pieces, joining the dots of why and how? When was the first time that you became aware of creativity?
- [03:55]
A
I think that it's something that's evolved over time and I think it was something from a young age that I didn't really realize was a part of who I am. I think that's something that got suppressed from a very early age. Being dyslexic and the schooling system that we have. And it probably wasn't until, because people had told me over the years that I was creative in various forms. But I don't think it was until my late twenties where I was like, wow, I really am creative. And now I'm kind of reveling in it.
- [04:31]
B
I would say, and this is a real question like some people are lucky that they discover creativity early and some people are lucky because they discover creativity later in their lives. And I think there's no right answer. You know, some people might be exploring this with more endurance and more sort of longevity. Whereas personally, I think that coming to creativity later in life, I mean, obviously in your early twenties is one later in life at all. I think there might be a bit of a benefit because you've potentially ticked all of the other boxes elsewhere. So what was that inspiration to make you realize that you love creativity and you're surrounded by it?
- [05:06]
A
I think I'd got to a point actually that was so far from myself and from creativity that I felt a huge part of myself was missing. I had episodes in my late 20s where I was actually feeling a lot of shame in my body and having a lot of out of body experiences and coming to the realization, I guess that creativity for me is being present and an embodiment side of it. I don't know if I'm like probably getting really deep here. Radhev.
- [05:42]
B
No, I mean, this is exactly what I want to talk to you because what you describe and obviously you said you're feeling a lot of shame in my body. Again, we can compare people's nose, but some people don't realize they got shaming their body until very later in their life. Because it's masked with all sorts of vices to suppress those feelings, suppress that reality. So again, for you to go through the first 20 years of your life to build up to that momentum of, okay, I need creativity to help me to find a release. It's kind of an interesting medium to find out, like, how do I get out of my current state? Because you mentioned you highly dyslexic. For those who might be looking around the room right now thinking, how does that work? Because we see dyslexia is kind of a collective term for condition, but everyone's got different experience of it. So what was it like? And I guess it's not going to be a happy memory, but what was it like when you discovered or get told that you're dyslexic?
- [06:38]
A
Well, I think there was never like a defining point where I was told I was dyslexic. And I don't think I actually also realized that till later how dyslexic I am. As a child, I had a really tough time at school not fitting in. And there was just not the curriculum or opportunities to explore the different ways that I learn. In fact, I was moved to schools because my parents realized I wasn't very happy and I think they were doing the best that they could. So put me into a different school in order to try and help change the way I learned. But actually I don't think the facilities were in place in any schooling system. Yes, when I was early adolescent, I was put into a private school and again, the schooling system just wasn't in place for me to the point where I wasn't only bullied by other kids, but I was told in front of a class by the teacher that I was stupid.
- [07:37]
B
That is not an experience you want to have because your schooling experience, I mean, it's not even that long ago, is it? You're talking about maybe like sort of 20 years ago. And I think it just shows like how much ignorance and lack of empathy was still in the system. And we can judge the time by being not necessarily clued up about these things. Because yes, we recording this in 2026 and we have a lot more understanding, a lot more language about what people are and how everyone is unique. As you know, my books talk about the fact that be the odd one out, everyone is odd, everyone is different, everyone is weird in some way, but we somehow try to fit in the societal sort of cookie cutter form of okay, yeah, we all need to be a version of whatever is acceptable version of being a Human when you realize, well, that's pretty fucking boring, what would I be that? Because ultimately, you know, because so many similarities in our DNA makeup and genetics, but we are all unique. And this reminds me of children's books when I think, and this is going to be really weird, but remember reading to my kids, there was a book about Bear who went to obese school and older bees were making fun of him. It was like, you are different. And he tried to be like everybody else. And then they realized actually, you know what? We are all the same. We are all the beast. We are all the same. But this bear stands out. He's different. But for our fragile minds, for being so young and trying to sort of accept it, that you could be the other something different feels so frightening. Because I feel for you like you know, being not only picked on by other kids who must have been channeling there some sort of sadness, and then having an ignorant teacher calling a stupid in front of a class, that can crush anyone, even in a very healthy mind. Because you don't really want this because you want the world to look after you, right?
- [09:22]
A
Absolutely. And I think we don't realize the power of our words every day and the long term effects of those situations that have on somebody. And the difference it would have made to my life having the tool of collage now then is phenomenal. I would have had so much more confidence, self belief, a higher level of self worth. It would have changed all of the other areas of my life and it would have had a huge difference to the trajectory of my life. And that's why I feel so passionately now about getting more of what I found in collage and the practice of collage into not just schools, but into communities and other organizations. Because it's what we're missing. We're missing that experiential creative practice that's accessible to everybody and that comes from a place of instinct and intuition and learning to lean in not intellectually, but from a place of soul.
- [10:22]
B
I think you've got absolutely right. I think what you're describing, I mean it's interesting, you're thinking like, I wish I had this at that time. And it's your lived in discovery and your solution to your own situation, if that makes sense. Because it would have been great to provide this curriculum to children and find a way of like how we shape it up. Because being parent myself and having two kids in school, you know, you get schools who are highly competitive. You are working to a cookie cutter again. And it's, you know, to create something so personal and unique, it's really hard. And I think this is why I really applaud you for what you're trying to do now and where your mission and purpose is coming from. Because it's something which is not going to be a mainstream norm potentially, hopefully one day. Yes. But when you create, I'm sort of joining these dots together, like what you create and is actually a hands on experience that takes us back, let's say by 20, 30 years when this was a norm and people would be collaging at home, people would be working with their hands away from screens. And this is what's really interesting because when you talk about collagen, it makes me think of this sort of scattered sort of story that you kind of pick together as humans, that we don't necessarily know who we are and it's kind of our lifetime was working out who we are, picking up these pieces together where it feels like what you do with collage is very much creating this sort of. It's not a bigger picture, but creating the picture of people and their expression. But before we talk more about collage, I think we should still stay with the topic of dyslexia and schooling and actually have you felt for all of this and how did you find this outlook? Because you felt, in your own words, you felt like you were a black sheep. And black sheep, I mean, again, there's a different connotations to words. As you say, the words mean something, the words have got bigger meaning and a huge effect on people. But normally black sheep would be sort of reserved to someone who really is, you know, the bad one, you know, the old one out unnecessarily by just not being just like all the others. That must have been quite a lot of weight to carry yourself to feel that way at a young age.
- [12:35]
A
Yeah, absolutely. It definitely brought on feelings of inferiority and worthlessness, which also then I guess led to me being a lot more isolated in my teens and my 20s. And it's fascinating because people would say to my mum, oh, Sarah, she's quite shy, isn't she? Actually, looking back, I'm not shy at all. I've learned to isolate myself because I was shut out at school and I was carrying so much shame and felt so disconnected, not just from my peers, but from myself. So that was an interesting revelation, I guess, in just finding out you're not. These labels that now people are putting on you that you're shy is actually not about that at all. It's about the fact that you're carrying the shame and isolating yourself. I guess that finding collage has been a way of reclaiming and restoring all of my organic parts of myself. It's not just the healing part of it. It's about exploring all of those elements that I suppressed for so long.
- [13:43]
B
When you said word shy and and being told you're shy by other person, parent or other people around reminded me of my conversation with James Victoria. We know that James Victoria isn't shy at all. And I loved hearing his story when he was saying that his dad used to say, hey, this is Jimmy. He's the shy one. And James is like, am I the shy one? So you get that label is not lived in. Being shy, I think is one of the most misunderstood labels and feelings and expressions that we have in our language because it can mean so many different things. And I think shy is just a lack of lived and experience in a situation that others have got massive head start in. If you get that label from someone who's 40, which it must have taken them some time to be just okay to be in the room, it seems so unfair, I think, to be able to express yourself in public and social situations, in work, you know, in any other way, it just requires the reps. And how can you expect someone who hasn't had the reps, hasn't done the reps, to be saying, yeah, yeah, of course I'm not shy. Just let me show you. My theater side of myself just doesn't exist. So it sounds like a very emotionally demanding time when it makes you feel isolated through almost third person narrative, if that makes sense. We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. You can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [15:59]
A
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And now I guess starting a business, you're pushing yourself out of your comfort zone even more from all of this kind of baggage that you've picked up along the road as well. So that's interesting in itself just now it's about putting in the reps, even though it's bringing so much stuff up.
- [16:20]
B
So let's talk about a collage because, like, once you start putting a few pieces together, you're discovering almost hidden meanings and creating these unexpected stories that you wouldn't always have known from just seeing two seemingly disconnected dots that you put them together. So let's talk about the magic of that discovery.
- [16:39]
A
After I finished my bachelor's in graphic design, I got a job. I had two kind of more design role jobs within the commercial industry. So I worked for a year as a brand manager for a floristry company, and then I worked for a year as a marketing design manager for an independent jewelers. And I was finding with both of these roles that I was in creative roles, but I didn't really feel like I. I was creative and I wasn't feeling fulfilled within these roles. Yeah, I wasn't feeling very fulfilled within these roles. So anyway, I looked at doing a master's in visual communication and at the time I was really keen to, to go towards a career in branding. So this would have been my mid-20s. And then jumped onto the Masters of Visual Communication course at Solent because I'd obviously had a great experience there from doing my ba. Interestingly, when we got to the final major project, I wanted to find a way of generating original ideas. And somebody had mentioned collage, which is really interesting because when I'd done my bachelor's, we'd had a term on collage and I had such a bias about it. I thought it was just kids play. I was like, this is nonsense. Why are we doing this? And I had a very opinionated friend that was also on board with this. We're like, this is just ridiculous that we've got a whole term doing this. So I had just thought it was complete nonsense. But I think when I got to my master's level, I wanted to question that bias because I was starting to realize that a lot of the assumptions I had about creativity with very role. So I decided to explore collage for that reason, to understand why I thought it was invaluable, why I thought it was valuable to spend my time doing it. And there was kind of an inkling to just try it and explore. So I ended up. So originally the project, I put my proposals together and it was going to be about how collage could generate ideas for branding. But it quickly became something else when I was doing kind of daily practices and realizing that actually this is doing something else intrinsically that I need to explore. So it's really interesting that when people come to workshops and they're like, I'm not creative, I have empathy for that, because I was there once, like I was at a point where I thought. And that's also down to what we're told at school. I also think that another reason why collage is perhaps more accessible to people, whether they think they're creative or not, is because I think a lot of people were told in art school that they can't draw. Whereas was there many people in school that weren't, were told they can't collage or there wasn't so much of a thing. I guess for me particularly, like, you don't get graded on your collage at school, but you get graded on your drawing or your painting. So maybe there's less of a barrier there because we didn't have that art form as kids, potentially.
- [19:49]
B
It's really interesting what you're describing because I would have never thought that something that you're so passionate about was once, for your assumption, something that, in your own words you said it was nonsense. That is really interesting because I thought maybe there have been some sort of clear line and you were like just reinvigorating the love for the subject. But to have such a 180 about it, you know, the topic and realizing, you know what, this potentially could work. Because what you're describing about collage and personally, my experience of collage was more digital. I've kind of created a lucrative illustration career for nearly a decade by being a digital collages with, you know, doing digital illustration, kind of putting things together. And I would have never thought that I wasn't good enough. Not that I was 100%, you know, at the right place, but I was mesmerized by the possibilities of actually putting different pieces together, stock imagery, you know, drawn layers, that kind of stuff. Because when you think about it, everything that we do is more or less a collage of ideas. Can be putting together different subjects together on a side by side, or even just using different media or different colors in some way. There is a mixture of these sort of visual color ingredients that you put in together. So when you said people come to the collage and say, I'm not good at collage, I was like, I'm not good at everything that I have never done before. I mean, it's just a natural truth, right?
- [21:15]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [21:17]
B
Yeah. Because the comment about, for example, with branding clients or just general clients, they're like, oh, you're the creative one. I'm not good at drawing. I'm like, you don't know how good you are compared to me because I'm terrible. At drawing, but I'm just good at solving problems. Just because I'm a creative job doesn't mean that I'm a Picasso in hiding, you know, and also all the other things altogether. So, I mean, that must be quite an interesting experience when you get those people to come up and say, I'm not good at this, because all you can really tell them is just get started.
- [21:43]
A
Yeah. And I think it's also a learning to get a point that it's not about having an esthetically pleasing image at the end of this. It's about the process and it's about being present over the product. And the performance of it does that to me is where the value is.
- [22:00]
B
What I want to get into, Sarah, is to get to the tactile nature of when you talk about collage. And for people who may have not seen your work or shapes, papers or what you use, I think we need to put a bit more color into that information of, okay, what sort of type of visuals are people putting together, like, what they create? And so what was it for you that you've discovered for your collage? Obviously we've not. We've heard about your MA and the projects and challenge in the medium, but there is a zillion and one different pieces of magazines, papers, posters, antique stuff. There's a lot of different pieces that you could put together. So where did you start looking for your source materials, for your ingredients?
- [22:43]
A
So when I originally started my practice, because I was exploring emotional intimacy around collage, I basically started writing out diary entries. For months. I would take a diary entry, I think I wrote out diary entries for each month of the previous year. And then I would combine that into three words that summarize the diary entry. And then I would find imagery. It could be abstract or it could be literal, but basically I was just finding and not even necessarily going out to do it, but I would find what I had to hand that matched these words. And then I started creating collages out of that. And I was dying to feel a sense of being seen through my work and process on a probably very self conscious level. What I'd gone through, that was the start of my practice. The more practice I got into and I was trying different things. I was trying like creating collage just in black and white to start with, just with one color and kind of finding my way in, what helped ground me and get more focused. But the other thing I also think is really valuable is I went through a season of reading the Artist's Way by Julia Cameron and I couldn't get into that because it's very. Again, the practice of the morning pages is obviously all very text based. So I kind of see my collage practice as a visual way of doing the morning pages. So I use collage. My collage practice has basically become a way of getting out what's inside with what's to hand.
- [24:33]
B
It's actually perfect. It's really interesting. How have you taken Julia Cameron's book and the daily pages to the fact that you made it your own? Because I've seen that book given to people who are already practicing artists. And I feel like that book is for people who are stuck. They're looking for something. They need that really long narrative, that sort of long conversation with an imaginary friend by the fact that what you're doing is somewhere hidden that you need to do. And I bought the book, got the audiobook because I haven't got that much time to read. But I can get through a lot of audiobooks and it was good, it gave me lots of interesting narratives. But it really speaks to a person who really needs to find that artist who really needs to find what is it that they want to do. At least that's my own experience. I'm sure that not everyone who's read it has got a different experience about it. But what I normally do is my little trick. And this is a helpful trick to anyone listening to this. Buy lots of books during the year, and even if you don't get to read them in the year, just give them out as Christmas presents and people will say, you got such a good taste in books. Thank you. This is my method. I buy like 20 books a year and I give out 20 books for Christmas and everyone's really happy. But in your answer, you said some incredible things that really speaks to how the practice of morning pages are loaded through daily collage. You know when you said I was exploring the emotional intimacy, those are beautiful words in describing how you feel about a subject, because you mentioned that you did daily entries and then you summarize in three words and then try to create into imagery. You have invented your own morning pages in your practice to actually understand what was going on in your world and doing it that way. So it's just sometimes you can see with other people's discoveries almost, oh, there's this one moment where the now versus how came together and it's like, this is what I'm doing. Whereas in your case, I feel like this is this gradual, as you said, gradual emotional intimacy, exploration of collage that has been so helpful to discovering where you are and to find yourself so rooted in what you want to do. Because it seems like your foundation is so strong now to do this.
- [26:46]
A
Absolutely. And I think it's fascinating how these practices have not only allowed me as a dyslexic, to lean on my strengths as a more visual thinking, but it's also helped me heal in terms of self worth, belief and confidence that I never had before. And it's made huge difference in the past year where I've noticed because of that practice, I am not reacting to situations in my life, I'm responding to situations in my life. And I have a greater awareness because I've had the time within my collage practice to explore my emotions and the parts that I'd suppressed.
- [27:29]
B
That's really interesting. It reminded me of the words I had recently saying, in some situations, stop being absorber and be observer. You know, don't absorb what's happening, but actually observe what's happening. And it's so great to hear that you've grown that sort of emotional resilience and that sort of social endurance to understand how certain situations can trigger the old you, the thing that happened in the past. Because our lives are this continuous journey of discovering how to operate this vessel, this vehicle that we've been given, you know, how to understand the driver inside, how to self accept and then set up on a journey of curiosity and gratitude. And it's so amazing to know that the collage has become your sanctuary and place where you can make an explorer in a practical and playful way that helps you to let go of perfectionism and celebrate what makes you unique. Yes. I have just paraphrased your Instagram post. I have just very much done that. But I want to get to the mechanical bit for a short while because to me, when you put together again feels very unique. I mean, it does feel like that's what it should be. But where do you get the physical ingredient? Like, where do you get. Obviously not in your case, boxes of papers and all of that stuff, but where you source the visuals that ultimately you present and provide for others to put together. So where does this come from originally?
- [28:56]
A
There's three things I've done, basically. Firstly, going back to Julie Cameron, she talks about going on artist date. Now, what I was doing when I first started my practice was I was going on artist date to collect ephemera, particularly from charity shops, because I would rather be giving money to charity shops. So I would go on an artist date, particularly to find Imagery that spoke to whatever I was ever theme I was working on from my diary entries. And those elements would go into my collage. So that's one source is that I often go thrifting. Second source is that I had a grandmother that hoarded for years and her whole life and she was also a sewer. So a lot of her old pieces of papers and even she'd done some paintings which I also have put into my collage. But it kind of. Her old papers also tie into this idea of renewal and recycle and using what we already have, making old things new, honoring the past as well and honoring where we've come from. So that's the second source that is probably quite valuable is that I've also used a lot of things that I've inherited over the years. And third source actually is tying in steel charity shops. So basically a lot of charity shops. And I also try and focus on just using block color, pattern color and scraps from my own mark making within the university. So I'm still, I'm an artist in residence still until April at the university, which has also been a blessing. And I use a lot of my own scraps from screen printing as another form of sourcing imagery. So there's the three. So basically charity shops, what I've inherited and printing materials offcut. There we go, we got that.
- [30:59]
B
I hope that your gran looking back at you down going, what are you doing? Just chopped it all up.
- [31:05]
A
I think she'd get into it.
- [31:07]
B
I think she would be happy that this is not going in a circular motion, that what she's once provided and created actually is being reused now. So with your workshops, I mean you, you in my opinion, and that's an admiration and a definition of daring creativity. You're doing something that now is your business that you would have definitely regretted never starting. Because we all know that the business of creativity or creativity of business is never going to be easy. In fact, it's not meant to be easy. You've created this reality for yourself where you provide in this firsthand experience to other people potentially to find themselves and find their outlet and find their missing pieces that they can collage together and find something new. What I want to ask you is like what people can expect from when they come to your collages and what is the experience of, you know, having this sort of a few data points of running a business and running workshops. What was it like to see that what you creating for others in practice and seeing their experiences and yeah, seeing their experiences.
- [32:13]
A
I've been really fascinated by the whole process of it because I just. There's such a privilege in watching people create side by side with their hands and not on a device and connecting in that way. And I find that such a privilege to witness. But I think for me it's about the main top priority is making people feel safe and supported and to try and empower them. So you're guiding them through a process but you're not doing it for them. And I think I'm growing in like because I'm so aware of language and how that can have an effect on people. I'm learning to use my language towards myself and towards other people to empower them in their ability to be creative. So that's something I'm really keen to do. Even like on a non linguistal level when you're showing things to people like not being try and get to their level, sit at their level, work at their level with them. Because at the end of the day I'm learning as they're learning through this process and I think there's some serious power in that as well. Instead of just putting people on the stage or pedestals, but like getting side by side in the trenches with them. This is something we're both working on together because we both need to reclaim our creativity because it's both innately needed for all of us. Does that kind of answer the question a hundred percent?
- [33:45]
B
Yeah.
- [33:46]
A
I think people are also really surprised when they come out the other side of a workshop and they're like, wow, I've just made something and I've had the capacity to just play and it's been such a gift. And I hope that what I'd like to be able to be at a point with the business is to get people in a routine more frequently to understand the power of creating, even on a small level for half an hour a day. How much that will make a difference
- [34:17]
B
to their well being would you describe so beautifully? And I'm loving the parallel with Artists Way by Julia Cameron. Like when you said I'm going on artist dates or so I've been going on artist dates, you know, thrifting and finding and cutting up your ground pieces. I hope she's okay with that. It's that moment of stepping out of your reality and doing something different because it's so easy to make your reality suffocating. Okay, I have to earn, I have to do this, I have to do this. Well, this is my business. I'm like, is there something else I can do? Is there Somewhere, you know, I can find an outlet. Because when you talked about creating an environment which is safe and supporting, you are recreating the thing that you wish existed in the world when you need it the most. So you creating that forward for other people. And that's what makes the most sense. Because when you say I'm trying to get them just to enjoy it for half an hour, how you take them off from their reality and show them that there's something else. Because if we keep going in the same way all the time, nothing's going to change. It's just how do you remove them and give it to them? Because you do it as you were saying, like I'm learning as they're learning. Because if you were to throw at them in a few boxes of cut up paper and some glue sticks and say, hey, off you go and receive what happens, who knows what will happen? You know, I think you're putting yourself in this position where you are working with people who might feel vulnerable or might feel, I don't want to use the word shy, but they might feel like I don't know what's coming next. But then you can see the sense of wonder, right? Okay. They get stuck in or see they breaking through that initial barrier and then you realize oh my God, I've put this together, these people are listening to me, what I want them to do and then I can see the benefit of what I've asked them to do that actually it works because facilitating my workshops about mental health and all sorts of personal topics, people getting stuck in and opening up and realizing, oh, I've just taken two hours out of my life to look at let's say 20, 30 years of working life, only realizing like why didn't I do it more often? Why don't I or other person, why don't I do it more often? So I think the sort of sanctuary that you create for people just sort of this parallel universe is so important because yeah, you growing stronger and your business is growing more with a stronger foundation knowing that what you're creating, there's a data point of how to make the future experiences even more nourishing to people who need safe and supported environment.
- [36:38]
A
Yeah. And that's on an emotional level, but on a physical level as well. We don't have enough spaces to connect on a physical level either nowadays. Because what I'm finding with the people are hungry to be in these atmospheres where they're making with their hands so they can't hold a phone while they're Making with their hands and they're like making eye contact with human beings in a room. And there's no devices to hand because. And I think that in itself, on a physical level is needed more and more as we keep driving towards connectivity over connection. Do you know what I mean?
- [37:17]
B
Makes perfect, absolutely perfect sense. Yeah. I mean it's. Would you describe it? I mean, it's. It feels so beautifully analog. It feels so was that expression is like, what is the distance between your brain and your tool? You know, so that is the expression, how far do we need to go for something to happen? And how we learn to make that distance even shorter when our brains don't have to think about it. And you got these people in the room that this should be a norm. I normally say we live in a Disneyland. You can have anything, anytime, anywhere, in any shape, in any color. Right. Any experience, any type of food. And you don't have to go far in it because, I mean, we have made convenience very convenient and inescapable. But when you say people are crying out for these experiences, how have we lost the ability to make stuff with our hands? Because we've created everything else so noisy that someone can say, yeah, I can do it on my iPhone. Of course you can, but you know, enjoy what's coming next afterwards. Would you agree, like for your own business and for your own data, do you ask people about their day to day experiences, how they go around their lives, and how you can potentially tailor your course, your workshops, even better, to help their needs?
- [38:32]
A
We haven't done that yet. I think what I have learned in the last few months is that it's for me, because I've also come on such a long journey and there's so many intricacies, I guess, and different layers to my collage practice. I think I've come so far from day one that I have to kind of go back to, okay, what helped me at day one to get into this and then make it accessible to that entry point. And I think what I've also learned in the last workshop that I did, actually, we're gonna dial it back to everybody just bringing a journal. And every month we do a new collage on a journal page and share that. And I think it's just getting back to the basics. My data points come from the conversations I have at the workshops. I don't have a questionnaire that people fill in, but I guess I have these conversations in real time at the workshops.
- [39:28]
B
And that's what I meant. I wasn't necessarily asking you can you interrogate your people, but it's more about a conversation about like actually what do you find out from their stories? Because it's amazing when you get in that safe and supported environment with people, they will open up and often they will open up because they haven't been able to open up to people they haven't been able to share. And most and more than anything from my personal experience as a facilitator is to realize how we are all equal in this life because we create so many false narratives about how we feel that some people are more successful, more better looking, more connected, more affluent, whatever. And it's all just us creating stories. And most of them, those stories are so wildly inaccurate to the reality that, yeah, it's only when you really share how you feel and whatnot, what you feel and what you're going through with other people, that's the real level. So it sounds like that environment, what you're creating, gives you the idea of what's really happening. Other people's world, right?
- [40:29]
A
Yeah, for sure, absolutely. And I learn something new every session. I absolutely love that learning about people in that data collection. Because I wouldn't have got this from any sort of generic job either, which is what I think is growing me as a human is that I'm having to put myself in places that allows my confidence to grow and my connections with other people. And all of these data points allows me to be more empathetic and to gear the workshop every time just a bit closer to what people are needing on that level.
- [41:07]
B
I like to use the word empathy. It's not to be empathetic because it's, you know, you talked about out of body experiences when things were not quite right. I say not quite right when things were very not right. And now you're almost having sort of similar out of body experiences, but in a positive direction because you care how people experience your workshops, what you can do for them and what they can take home. Because we sometimes feel that we need to go through all sorts of reading how many stacks of books and listening to all sorts of podcasts and get stuck in hours of therapy. But it could be literally just a two hour experience. We can show you what are those pieces that you need to put together to actually start forming just a direction sign. It doesn't have to be the full map, but just knowing where to go with it, Right?
- [41:53]
A
Absolutely.
- [41:54]
B
What I noticed from your experience of being highly dyslexic and being almost ashamed in public or shamed in school, had a Massive knock on your confidence when it comes to expressing yourself in the public space. And we all go through this. I mean, I'm not saying we all go through such horrific experiences, but just expressing yourself in public can feel so hard. And again, it's the reps, you know, you haven't put those pieces together. You haven't that experience. And I always looked when I was in my sort of early 20s and I saw people who were 40 plus and they stood up in the public space, they started speaking. I'm like, how the hell are you doing this? What's going on? Then you just realize that you kind of just teach yourself to not really care what you think that the feedback loop is. You know, it's just all I can say is what I can do. And I can always only be me. And in your case, I know that even for you to facilitate these workshops takes a lot of your emotional energy, because public speaking is still something that doesn't come to you naturally, even though, you know, you put in the reps in and you need to sort of just learn even that bit yourself. So I really applaud you for doing so many things that take you so much out of your many comfort zones. But you put in those pieces together, and I think that's a really interesting experience for others to know and have shared from experience that I haven't met anyone who would be natural public speaker. I've met so many confident people, and everyone's good at something. Everyone's good at Achilles heel. So in your case, I think, you know, when you're open about it, you know, with your workshops and stuff, and that's a really liberating piece to feel that way and to express it and say, look, you might, you know, you might not feel confident, nor do I. Yeah, thank you.
- [43:39]
A
I think I'm learning to just. Also, I think it's Maya Angelou that said, she learned from a really early age to have her own back. And I think that I am now reveling in getting in the reps because I can give myself a kudos to just for showing up and just getting an extra rep in. And the more reps you do, you just marginally get a little bit closer to confidence every time and that there's no ceiling to that. Today I get anxiety over sending a voice note. I've just come on a podcast. Look at me go, Radit.
- [44:18]
B
I mean, that's the reps. Because when you say, like, when I feel confident and I just don't know when we actually say I Am confident because it just, it's so circumstantial about how so many things need to align in a way that we need to work because you know, we've got our life inputs. As I said, we all, we make false narratives, we, you know, what we put into our bodies, how we exist, it all adds up because then you can have a confident public speaker and they have a bad day, everyone has a bad day. Not everything is hundred percent aligned. And this is the part that, you know, just because you got somewhere doesn't mean that you're going to win all the time. Yeah. So let's say, for example, let's say I've been watching a Formula one movie and it kind of, it makes you realize how these people are driving these million pound, multi million pound vehicles around, around track. There's the team is about 700 people deep and everything's tuned into a maximum detail but it all circumstantial. Something doesn't go right, something out of places with other influences go right. So it's like not anyone can say today is my day and I can do whatever I can do today because again, I think having the sort of outside measure of our successes, our results is, you know, when you take an outside measure to your personal achievements is never going to be real because yeah, as you said, I'm doing just well enough just by showing up. And that's the first step. The motivation comes from the action, you know, it doesn't, you know, to be motivated to do something. This is not going to be to anything because you need to step out and do that stuff. So what does it feel like for you to be getting ready and getting the show on the road and showing up and have that sort of, I need to guess what sort of feelings you might be going through about what does it feel like for you?
- [46:11]
A
It's definitely getting easier. Every time I do a workshop I still get really bad anxiety, even if it's a small number. And I think it's been a blessing in starting with people I know and then growing out to bigger, wider audiences with my workshops. The first one I had, my hands were shaking so badly when I was shown how to make a book and somebody in the workshop was like, sarah, stop shaking. You know, all of us. I was like, I can't, I'm doing this. But I was taking like a leap. So I think breath work makes a difference. Affirmations make a difference. Rightly so. Looking at how far you've come doesn't mean that it's a Bad thing, you still succeeded and positive things came out of that. Bring all the bad, good and ugly out of it. You're still moving forward. I think I'm continually learning to let myself be seen and supported. I obviously isolated myself for a lot of years because of the tactics I learned growing up to survive with dyslexia. I'm learning to let the people around me help me and support because it's. That's the other thing with the collage practice is that it's enabled me to realize that leaning into my family friends is not an intellectual thing. I need to do it on a gut level in order to sustain the business that I'm trying to move forward and for it to have longevity.
- [47:42]
B
Absolutely. You've said so many amazing things that anyone listening and taking even mental notes will realize how important that is. I read a trick about how to start a podcast and it said, don't interview important people at first. Interview your friends and then ramp it up. And that's exactly what I did. I just asked a lot of my mates just to help me realize what I can do. Because I can tell you that this is a conversation I think 112 that I recorded and I still at the beginning go, ooh, how do I start? What do I do? Because I'm a great improviser, you know, I show people a blank piece of paper and say, I've got no questions but that what makes us feel alive. And in your case it's just like when you said like you've created for yourself these tactics, how to isolate yourself so it only makes sense to come out, you know, slowly and get the reps in and just realize it's all okay. Because some of the stuff that you do plays to the long term memory. So you just gain that confidence. And the best part of what you do that when you stay on this track and when you start exploring and growing, best part of what is, is getting older and actually having that more lives in experience to know that all of this matters so little in the long term. Because when you know, when you step away from all of it, when you sort of have an elevated view of the situation, you realize what was I worrying about? And that retrospective is valuable because as I said and what I see the four steps of our sort of creative lives of staring creativity is that, you know, you've got the vessel, you know, you got a body that we don't always understand why the flip it works in a certain way, you know, like, why am I hand shaking? Why is my Brain telling me this. Why do I fear saber tooth tiger when I'm sharing my word with thousand strangers online? This is the biological stuff that we need to learn in a parallel to these most amazing tools that we've got available to us. Because we don't have a choice what vessel we step in, but when we are find, when we find ourselves in a vessel as the driver or as the one that stays, we accept who we are and say, okay, this is who I am. Okay. My hands are shaking. Oh, okay, that's me. Okay, well, yours not. But then you got something else, you know, and then you go in the place of curiosity and gratitude because what you describe in it's 100% that curiosity that, no, you're just not stopping. And you've chosen to create your own universe where you survive and thrive and mostly survive is just another learning. You're still not teaching yourself how to get through those elements that some people might find as a hindrance or no, might impede your progress. But you showing up, you're doing these beds and you know you're thriving in this. It might not. Some people might be thinking, like, I don't think collage business is the one that's gonna buy a beautiful house or whatever, but ultimately it is one of the means of creating something different that should grow. And I think what you create in is such an important thing to bring it to the wider audience and actually reconnect with the basics. Great, safe and supported environment where people can really reconnect with themselves. Because, you know, as much as we are connected through our devices, we are so disconnected, even with ourselves, let alone with one another.
- [50:46]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And I also think I've been really thinking this week about how at the end of the day, whatever you choose in life, there's hardships that come with it. I'm so grateful that I get to choose that I'm in a season where I get to choose my hardships. I'm just so grateful for that.
- [51:06]
B
And the only person to be grateful for it is you, because you've chosen to do it. And I'm going to quote the messenger of the quote, which is Jimmy Carr, who said, hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. And what if everything you're describing, those are hard choices? You know, you could have made it easy for yourself, be back in that job. Not unfulfilled, be feeling creatively unfulfilled and feeling a little bit stuck. Whereas what you're doing now, obviously it's not going to be easy. No type of business is easy. And it's only a journey that we've embarked on to prove to ourselves that, you know, being daring, pushing yourself to the places that you want to go will make you look upon a journey and say, look, I don't regret making any of these steps. Sarah, I believe this conversation is going to be valuable to so many people because it comes from very much a deep place of vulnerability, transparency and salute you for, you know, being here. Because if you say that, struggle to send a voice note and now you're here for more than an hour, that means that's another step towards something that is going to bring so much, you know, joy and value into your life. So I really thank you for sharing this with me because I think this is a very important conversation to share with people.
- [52:18]
A
Thank you so much and that's absolutely honor. I just appreciate you so much. Random. You are such a lifeline and I really appreciate that you meet people where they're at and you just lift them up.
- [52:30]
B
Thank you. I have to finish with one cord, which is yours and it is. This is what you shared on Instagram. It says, these days I realize I'm not a black sheep. I'm a unicorn that refuses to fit in a horse box. It just, it's a beautiful way to say, you know what, I am who I am and I'm living my best life. Sarah, it's been a pleasure to have you here today and thank you for sharing your story with me.
- [52:52]
A
Thank you, Radit.
- [53:03]
B
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions. So please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover new your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.
- [54:00]
A
It.