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- [00:00]
Radim Malinic
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Sam Mensabonsi
And I feel like the way to really describe it is like the perfect assistance. If you're trying to start a creative idea or a project or a business, these are the questions you can ask this thing, the questions that you need to ask to do that sort of thing. A particular project, that particular idea. You can use it. The beginning or the middle or the end, the beginning. Wait. You have no idea what you want to do or how you're going to do it. What even is that's on your mind. We just ask and talk to it and see what happens. You can have in the middle or you have a faint idea of what it is, but you need to sharpen it or grow it and expand it or use it at the end, but you're pretty much almost done with the idea.
- [00:54]
Narrator
Foreign.
- [01:03]
Radim Malinic
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinic. I'm a designer, author and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range of guests who share their stories of small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens when you dare to create?
- [01:48]
Sam Mensabonsi
Foreign.
- [01:55]
Narrator
Speaking with Sam Mensa Bonsi, a London based creative director and experienced designer at Microsoft. But he's part of a small team shaping how millions of people interact with AI through Copilot. Sam's journey is one of relentless invention. From a bedroom creative chasing the magic of movies to agency work to boardrooms to mentoring the next generations to designing experiences used by millions. At every turn, he moves toward the biggest change happening in the world, armed with more languages than the room expected him to speak. In this conversation we explore what it means to build a career on curiosity and generosity, how giving back became the foundation of everything Sam does and why AI is our invitation to stop thinking small. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Sam Mensabonsi.
- [02:53]
Radim Malinic
Hey Sam, it's great to see you. How are you doing?
- [02:56]
Sam Mensabonsi
All good, all good Ram, how are you?
- [02:58]
Radim Malinic
I'm all right. I'm excited to learn how some of the biggest software companies use AI where you slot into in the process. And actually, how did you even end up working on AI in one of the biggest software companies in the world. We're going to join the doors we're going to go high and low, left and right, front and back to find out who is Sam. So for those who may have never heard of San Mentor Bonsu, who are you? What do you do? How would you introduce yourself?
- [03:24]
Sam Mensabonsi
Firstly, just honored to be on this platform. Big fan of daring, creativity and just yourself in general as well. So looking forward to what we talk about today. Yeah, I think in a nutshell, Simon Sabunsu is just a creative that's trying to use creativity to improve the world in some way essentially. So I started out very young and wide eyed trying to make very cool things. I was just always inspired by just ideal of visuals. From movies to music videos to anime. I just wanted to make cool things. Now more developed. I want to make things that still look cool but also have something like in terms of making a world better in some way, essentially using design and creativity to improve lives is what I'm into.
- [04:04]
Radim Malinic
You mentioned movies, you mentioned music videos. What sort of era are we talking about? What was inspiring you?
- [04:10]
Sam Mensabonsi
I'm born in 1990, slightly younger than you, just a little bit. So pretty much it was this case where it's like movies from Arnold Schwarzenegger to Jean Claude Van Damme to action movie, sci fi, Fifth Element, the Matrix. I always go back to the Matrix as inspiration, foundation. Just in terms of the ideas, the concepts, the visuals. It just always reenergizes me in terms of just creativity and what's possible. That's my North Star almost was my favorite movie and I've seen possibly be there like 100 times that kind of era essentially. And going into the 2000s, things like Dragon Ball Z, things like just anime, like in general, essentially Spirited Away. These are my awakenings in terms of saying, yeah, I like that, I want to reproduce that. Like I want to be able to draw that and remake these things. That inspiration that it gave me, I wanted to make things that in turn inspired other people essentially. For a long time I thought the greatest thing that you can do as a creative is to inspire someone to also make things as well. You want to make things that make people also want to make things. So for a long time, even before like I discovered the Internet and all the blogs and DeviantArt and Behance and things like that, just making things that allowed other people to go, wow, I want to go make something as well. Now that was my thing. So when I did discover the Internet, I've still got 2,000. I was inspired to create more things and then that made other people want to create things as well. And that was circulation. That's what inspiration, that creativity is about just the give and take of the universe, just giving us things, we make things and give it back. That's how I see the world. Essentially.
- [05:48]
Radim Malinic
I'm interested that you improve the world and inspire others. It feels quite responsible, like a responsible creativity right from the start. Because to tell me for all of these amazing movies, the 90s classics and the 2000s classics that have shaped so many lives, and those movies were there to entertain, and you are forming your sort of visual tapestry of these ideas and inspirations. But I'm thinking, was there any hindrance to the innocence that you were creating? Because I'm sure it was. It was a little more spirit free to what you're describing. But was there the initial seed of that visual responsibility of actually creating for others? Where did that come from? Where did that feeling of needing or wanting to inspire come from?
- [06:34]
Sam Mensabonsi
The idea, like, of benevolence is that I thought someone made this. The thing that I'm looking at, say, Kill Bill, like, that's one of my favorites of all time things. And the visuals that are in there, someone made that. And I was like, okay, I want to take that and make something that is almost like an homage to replicate it. That's what you do. You replicate, you pay homage to the thing that inspired you. So even from the beginning, my design philosophy, like creative philosophy, has always been about homage, paying back, giving back, inspiring others. Because end of the day, it's an essence of free energy and free inspiration, essentially. So we take it and we make things and we give it back to the world eventually. I don't know where it came from. That. That's a very good point to make. And I never really saw it like that until now, but absolutely, like, even from the get go, I've always been a case of giving back and an understanding that it's not for me to hold onto, it's for me to make things where I can give back. And the goal is to try and inspire others. I can show people can give it out there if it does amazing, but maybe sometimes it doesn't. And even those times that's okay as well. But the goal is to always make something that aims to inspire the next person. As like domino effects, essentially. Yeah.
- [07:51]
Radim Malinic
I'll be allowed a question I haven't asked for a very long time, and that is, do you remember the very piece of creative work you actually made?
- [07:58]
Sam Mensabonsi
So it was case where I used to beg my brother to, because he was in college at the time. I Used to beg him to go to the library and print out images of Dragon Ball Z so he can bring them home so I can draw them as well and just replicate. That would be the case of just asking him to go and print these cartoon characters out, and then they'll come home and I'll trace them and I'll draw them or I paint them as well. Essentially. That was my sort of, like, introduction to creativity, essentially. And those case where I was copying, I was learning just how to do it. I was trying to be as good as the original, even though that's never the case. Right. But that's how we start just trying to do things. And even when I discovered Photoshop, like, it'll be case where, like, I'll try and replicate movie posters. I'll try and do my own take on them. I can duplicate them. Look at themselves. Okay. Those guys in the big studio, they probably did it like this, right? They use that sort of layering effect for masking effects. And then they did it like that and then. And it's that. So a lot of the time it was just me paying homage to what I've already seen and duplicating it, but also learning as well at the same time just how these things are done. Because there was. There's a huge level of fascination that came with. It felt like magic. Like when you saw something incredible like a nice film or a poster, it was magic to me. And a lot of time it still is that people are able to make these things. I know we'll get to it, but that's the reason why I'm so fatuated with AI, basically, is that we're able to make magic just like this. These things are taking hours or days or weeks before. We can now do it, like, in a few minutes and a few dollars. But we can make some really cool things. And that level of magic, like, is always really inspiring me. And it's still in there. Like, it's still a key part of the creative process is magic. And I fondly remember those early days and what it meant to create and have the privilege and ability to create with tools, whether it be a printout or an Adobe Creative Suite or the bare bones. Being able to make something that felt like the original thing that inspired you. Yeah. And then amazing times.
- [10:05]
Radim Malinic
Sam, I don't want to push back on what you just said because you talk about so eloquently and so passionately about all of the craft that was going to kill Bill, Matrix, all of the other movies. No one's ever mentioned Jean Claude Van Damme or Schwarzenegger on this podcast yet. And then you said we use AI to make magic. And I'm like, none of those people used AI to make magic. Starburst, Blood, Sweat and Tears. But I will talk about AI because this is currently where you are at the forefront with Microsoft. But I'm looking at your CV and crikey, you've been anywhere like this is. This is very beautifully linear and non linear CV in a way. Like with your sort of your creative history. And what makes me really pleased to see that you've been talking about the 90s music videos. And as you were saying, one of the first few jobs you had was for MTV and British Film Institute. So actually you've gone exactly the curiosity was taking you. Am I right? We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Co. The first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and beyond. Lux Coffee Co offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. You can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [11:53]
Sam Mensabonsi
Very interesting because even those things that were like internships or very quick freelance projects, but yeah, and even those campaigns, particularly the British Film Institute, that was a product that I did so whilst I was in uni, like an interning for the bfi and I was able to have the opportunity to do the campaign for the Future Film Festival, which is a festival, emerging directors, producers, filmmakers, stuff like that. And the campaign tagline that I created was to enter the Magic of Movies campaign that I did. So at the time it was just me, like my friends, I had my SLR camera and we were around London and I literally just took posters of them jumping in the air. But the concept was that when they jumped, I'll take that image into Photoshop and I'll erase them. So I can only be their clothes that's remaining. So I'll erase their hands, erase their feet, erase their heads. It'll just be the clothes because the concept was that they've been transported like into the magical of the film. When you're in the cinema or the theater, the film is so good, you feel like you're in the film, so you've left your body almost. So that was the campaign I made And I was like maybe 19 at the time or something, or 18 at the time. And yeah, and they published it. So I was the first time I actually saw my art being on billboards, like in Waterloo for the BFI years. It was a huge moment for me and I was like, wow. I had this idea like my bedroom, I am now. It's like a national campaign, basically. It was a good feeling even then. I was always like, magic. Because creativity, like film making, all this stuff is magic. I don't know if I explained as well, but my initial career direction is I wanted to be a director, I wanted to make films. But the entry point for films and doing films, making films was really hard. Like you need to get funding, get the right big enormous cameras or whatever, essentially. And the entry point was really difficult. Whereas for me to be a designer, like all I needed was my laptop and a cracked version of Photoshop and I was able to begin making things. So I feel like for a lot of people the entry points are difficulty based on availability and things like that. Because if things did go my way and I was able to get the resources I need to start making films the way I want to do, then I would be a director right now in doing that. But I've always involved photography and direction and filmmaking and everything that I've done. Even when I start making my fonts as well in 2012, a big part of that was the influence of films within the campaigns for those once that made people just go, whoa. So I've always carried that in my work, in a sense, even the work I do now as well. That's why again, the AI thing, film is just so cool and magic. So I'm always trying to just bring it into what I do.
- [14:42]
Radim Malinic
I liked your ambition. I liked your ambition that you are just barely out of the gates and you're like, I don't have funding to be a director just yet. But you know what, there's a correct version of Photoshop, so maybe I'll just use that. But you never know because the way we accumulate our skills and knowledge and understanding of how things work, if you manage to pull it off and get a budget and produce a movie, how many of 20 year old directors are they? When you're talking about a sort of breaking point into the industry, you need to prove yourself. People need to know how they spend money, right? At least from my understanding. Whereas the entry point and how you did it and obviously where you arrived and what you've created is like it's all data points. That add up together to who you are today. So I can see that you've gone and got a proper job at AKQA afterwards. What did that feel like? Because obviously what you described from this point of storytelling, creating your typefaces, being inspired by movies and a proper big screen, you got to work on some amazing accounts. That sounds like, you know, you got to actually put it all together, right?
- [15:48]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah, exactly.
- [15:49]
Radim Malinic
Skills.
- [15:50]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah. That was the culmination of an entire childhood of experimenting and being inspired in doing more things outside the classroom than probably the average person did. I have a million side projects. One of them was developing my own typefaces. In fact, I developed two typefaces whilst I was in uni. Showcase them as my final projects and stuff like that. And actually three technically. I also made one out of Sweets as well, which is the one that the creative director at AKQA and my degree show NLCC. This was July 2013, and at the time it was so many people come to you, give you business cards, you talking, you shmooze. I didn't think anything of it. We had a good conversation and then the very next morning there may be an offer to join akqa, specifically on the Nike football account as well. And it was just like, this can't be real. And it felt like an overnight success. But again, it was a culmination of sort of years and years of really working hard to prove myself of my skills, talents and vision, to say, yeah, I deserve to be at particular agencies or do particular work, essentially. So it felt good. And that was the beginning, essentially. You work so hard to get to that role and then that role, like, is. Is the end of the beginning, but then beginning of the rest of your life, basically, in terms of, okay, now you're in the industry, now you're working towards creating legacy in terms of like, amazing work and amazing clients. Relationships impact all these things, essentially. So I credit my creative director. His name is Dav. I don't know where he is right now, actually. Dav, he changed my life, man. And now 13 years later, I'm still here. He had a good idea time, if
- [17:38]
Radim Malinic
the Internet's anything to trust. I literally, I found a piece of I want Candy, a poster, and it's an article from 2013. So 13 years later, I went viral that year, man.
- [17:49]
Sam Mensabonsi
That was what going viral looked like in 2013, by the way, being featured on all these blogs and everything. Like, that was our language in terms of virality.
- [17:57]
Radim Malinic
But it was still early 2010s. It felt more innocent because, yes, we're going to talk about magic and AI. But this is all Photoshop. All of this stuff is even made
- [18:08]
Sam Mensabonsi
by hand, or Photoshop that's made by hands. So that was me again just doing something, like in my bedroom, where I literally went to the pick and mix, bought £10 worth of sweets, bought like an A1 sheet of paper, literally just drew the outline of the font. And I did it in two styles. One and the style of avant garde typeface, another one in the style of Helvetica. And the Helvetica one was the one that really took off, essentially. So I carefully arranged the sweets and the sprinkles, like, on all the things. It was carefully arranged. Then I literally just got my SLR camera and a very sort of makeshift studio light, like, in my bedroom, and took pictures of these, like manipulated them in Photoshop. And that was essentially very makeshift and very toil and sweat could be done in 10 seconds. Now, AI. Well, that was the reality and it was so simple, but that was it.
- [18:59]
Radim Malinic
It makes me think engines have been actually trained on that picture just to say, hey, what does. Sweet slider coming in. But you're talking about a time where I can look back, cast my mind back and think, like in Photoshop, what we tried to do by hand, how many more physical things were present in our work. And then obviously the software got so much better recreating it digitally. So you're like, have you got an idea in five seconds? Yes, here we go. Go. But I think the other sort of important part of your experience learning was working for McKinsey, which is not what I would normally expect or know from a designer to find themselves. So it shows me the way the curiosity was going that has led you to where you are today.
- [19:42]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah, absolutely. I think to really understand that, I need to go backwards, so I need to spend more time just explaining AKQA a little bit more. So, akqa, I was able to work on some of the most impressive brands in the world, from Nike to Google to Virginia, the list goes on, essentially. And I was really just infatuated with how these companies work and do their campaigns and do their rollouts. Like, I was fortunate enough to work on the campaign for the World cup for Nike. I was fortunate enough to do the branding, like an identity for Virgin Sports, the now defunct sort of brand under the Virgin umbrella. And it was a very interesting process where it's like I understood just how things work at that level. Specifically, the course I studied online university was advertising. I've always been fascinated with advertising. Where design and business meet, where creativity and business meet. So like in, in my youth, my younger years, I used to believe the pinnacle of that was advertising. If you do a really good post or like a really good commercial to sell a product or service or anything, that in turn makes us buy can business and therefore business is successful. So that was always my passion, to really see design and business be married at the top, essentially. And yeah, for me that was a KQA and I was really just working towards that. And then at certain point I realized, oh, you learn more and you grasp more and then you realize actually, you know what, there's more to this. So even before my Foray into, into McKinsey was my foray like into product design. So leaving alone the art direction and visual design and drifting more into product designs. So UX and UI, this was at a time where mid-2010, so 2015, 2016, 2017, where the product design slash, UX UI sort of industry was really blowing up, really becoming like a real thing. We saw the emergence of tools like Sketch and it became a reality. So it gets about the entry point, it's about the availability and the way to get into things essentially. So one of my final projects at AKQA was like a, uh, UI project for the BBC. For David Attenborough specifically, it was an art, was an app that was an archive of all of Attenborough's work at the time. So literally decades and decades of footage and archives sorted into one place where people can go see it essentially. That got me really engaged and intrigued and pretty much in love of UxUI developing products. Because even then, before that I worked in some Nike apps, some concepts as well, that never really got anywhere. Bear in mind the reason why KQQA was who they were was because of the Nike apps they developed and the web experiences and stuff like that, that really took over. I was a real catalyst in terms of that sort of error in terms of smartphones, the running app they made. Just when we were able to see sort of begin using smartphones in our everyday lives, that revolution on the smallest screens in our world now became the most interesting place to design for essentially the, the mobile device that became the most popping thing to design for at a stage and that was. That was inspired to go more in that direction. So just before long to McKinsey, I left AKQA and actually worked at this design studio called Native Design, where I was more also focused on like industrial design. So I was able to work with architects and industrial designers developing real products, physical products for the first time. So I was able to apply my UX and UI onto the tiny screens that that will go on a stereo or some speakers or a laptop or a driverless car. These are the kind of things that I was able to work on. And it was really good. But at the same time I was like I want a new challenge, like I want to go like in the most sort of corporate environment to really see where I can take it to the highest level in terms of where design and business meet. Because that was still my passion. I still haven't done that yet. And Jensen McKinsey came knocking at the door. The recruiter just reached out to me and said hey, do you want to join and do this? And I was yeah, let's give it a try, let's see where it goes. And boy was it a journey. It was two and a half years of traveling the world developing products and services for large conglomerates, rubbing elbows with CEOs and C suite leaders and really instilling design and design first culture in companies that never seen this before. So design led thinking, design protocol now taking the forefront. Before they didn't even care about design led approaches. And that's becoming the forefront of these things. And it was a case where that was a very special time. It was all inspired by IBM. I feel like they were the catalyst in terms of re beginning to invest in design at the time. That then inspired all of the other consultancy like a more so business led firms to begin to do the same thing. So that was a real sort of turning point. Like in industry I go in at the right time and rode that wave essentially myself as well. Yeah.
- [24:48]
Radim Malinic
Wow, what a journey. Because I want to know about you in those situations because you're talking about journey which for some that's already beautifully non linear path into what you've kind of set out to do because you've taken it from a big screen to the small screen as you say, that was where people were designing for, for their mobile phones. What I'm also feeling that to me it could feel like it's a linear story, but it's a non linear story with the experiences you've decided to obviously learn the business and it's the creativity. And you mentioned yourself being in a room with C suite leaders and CEOs that old. Still when you're in those rooms and you're trying to. What I believe would you describe sounds quite big and robust change in some of these organizations. How did you feel in those situations? Like a minute ago you were talking About Kill Bill and Van Damme. And now you're talking to CEOs and big companies about design led culture. So how did you get through it? How did it go?
- [25:49]
Sam Mensabonsi
Oh man, I was shocking myself. And that was the whole thing about it that I love that time so much. Okay, so pretty much the way I've meandered someone of my background creatively doesn't really end up in a place like McKinsey. That's why a lot of my previous colleagues were just like, what the hell are you doing? And their eyes. It was selling out because I came from a very traditional graphic design typography, like illustration sort of background. And then there's almost. You're selling yourself to demand basically by going to Tom McKinsey. So you don't really. It takes a very specific kind of individual to done what I've done in the past. My design upbringing. And I make the transition to a McKinsey essentially because the kind of folks that go to Wickens in are much more systematic sort of thinkers. The more methodical designers that didn't come from like an AKQA or making candy fonts in their bedroom, they don't come from that. Essentially. It just showed type of mentality of what we saw in terms of being that bridge and still being that connector to understand, oh, this is where design and business, design and commerce meet at the highest level. And these are the steps to take and to understand that. Okay. Yeah. It means you need to speak many languages, the language I've been speaking for the past decade of my life at the time, and then learn the new languages around, say strategy or corporateness methodologies and these things and to learn these things and become so equipped and so believable and efficient in it that they believe that I've always been this way, but I hadn't. It's something that that was learned and taught essentially. So when I find myself in these rooms, one of my bosses at the time, he made me realize that you're not here to fit in, you're here to stand out purposefully. Your power and a company like this isn't how you stand out. Because at the time I used to come to work wearing like everyone else, basically. And it felt good to wear a suit to work. It was like, that's not you and you don't need to do that. And your power is not in that. Your power has been able to be who you are, but still communicate value and impact the way you can to these other folks that wear suits and ties every day. And When I began to understand that, I felt a lot more comfortable in those rooms with the C suite leaders. Because end of the day, all we're communicating is value and impact. And you can have all the suits, all the fancy numbers, line jargon and elaboration, but if you're not saying anything that really drives impact, look and direction, not saying anything relevant, essentially. So that became my new language, essentially an impact and value. And if I was able to communicate those things and I could wear beach shorts and sandals and Crocs and I could still do that, essentially. But it was a real rigorous time of sharpening and learning, and I was sweating all these things every single meeting. And it's what's going to happen today. You never know what was going to happen. Every day was a new movie, and you never really know just how was going to play out. But thankful for how it shaped me, molded me in terms of being the thinker, like an ideas person that I am today. That means that my arsenal is so solid, like, I'm robust and strong in terms of being able to speak various creative languages. Not just one or two or three, but that's how it sharpened my outlook.
- [29:05]
Radim Malinic
I like what you used the term of speaking different creative languages because the graphic designers that were telling you that you were selling out are barely speaking one language of graphic design. And it's about being versatile because ultimately where all of this got you, which is now you work for Microsoft in the AI team. It wouldn't have been for. If it wasn't for any of these previous steps. You have picked up all of these snippets, all of these pieces together, you glue them together and become who you are now. So before we get there, I think it might be appropriate to talk about what you did when you started around 2015, because you created Youth Worldwide. It's a global creative outfit that is dedicated to showcasing emerging creative talent. And when you started at the beginning with the words inspire and improve, that feels like a natural side project that I feel like it's fitting with the narrative of where you got today on that mission. So where did it come from you for.
- [30:03]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah, so that was a case where, like, I'm at the time, I'd been at QA for two years. I feel like I made it. I felt like I was a rock star working on the coolest projects, the coolest clients, and there's a part of me that felt like I wanted to give back in some way to. To take on younger creators, my mentor there to show them just the creative ideas I had and to work on particular projects together, essentially because I thought, okay, I'm on the top of the mountain, let me see if I can bring people up with me. As that was essentially the emotion again, going back to the whole sort of inspiration, giving it back, paying it forward. That's always just been on my DNA, essentially, that was truly just inspired by me surrounding my souls, opening up myself to work with a collaborate younger creatives to do really ambitious projects and showcase their work, from developing a clothing label to doing architectural foundations for homes in Africa, essentially. And so many very ambitious things that I was doing with very, not unqualified people, but very young people that wanted to do this as their careers, essentially. So working with young architects like young tailors, young videographers, animators and that giving them the foundation on the space to create work, give them budgets to create, produce work, to give them the things I didn't really have when I was coming up, essentially to do all these things as a showcase. They were at exhibitions. So like I put up the money to showcase the work in these venues so people can see they can have that feeling of what it felt like to have their work be seen by hundreds. And to put it forward in that way, essentially that was the ambition, essentially, we did it successfully. And then that summer of next year, I went to Ghana to do some teaching for a week at Ghana's only design university, called Ashesa University. And it just inspired me that this is the way forward in terms of what youth worldwide can and should be. A creative collective, yes, but then also a platform that encourages and seeks out to uphold design education and to understand the value of design education as well, to make a viable opportunity for young people to know about as well. Essentially because we live in a time where creative education, design education has been stifled out of schools. They're defunding the art design programs every single day from schools, from colleges, from universities even. It's not respected the way it should be. And youth worldwide was a very strong sort of disruption to say, no, we believe it should be back in schools. And why we believe it should be. The industry is thriving. So many people are talented and deserve the opportunity to work in the industry, but nobody knows how to do it. So the thing was, demystifies a lot about the industry to show them just how diverse and deep it does go and to educate them on that at a younger age as well. So not by university level, by primary school level, they should be learning about careers in the industry and just how diverse they go from screenwriters animators, stop motion, to all these things that exist and will exist in the future as well. To say that a career in this industry is not only worthwhile, but necessary in terms of actually just keeping creativity and thriving society.
- [33:27]
Radim Malinic
Around the time when you were promoting, when you were working with you worldwide, you actually said that Black designers. Is it one of the. One of the mottos that drove you to push this forward? It says black designers are never placed at the forefront. How did you find it as a person of color in what is, let's be honest, predominantly white industry? You said you were on the top of the mountain, because usually you were pushing, you were striving, you were what you were achieving. But how did it feel for you to fit in, to belong? What did it feel like? Because I can see from your philosophy and from your strive to inspire and to empower and to uplift others, that's great. But it's sometimes being the first one to do it, or one of the first ones to do it, or pushing for the others to do it, it's a lot heavier than for anybody else. So how was it for you?
- [34:20]
Sam Mensabonsi
That's a great way to put it. For me, like, it felt just natural. It felt like this is my duty and what I should be doing. Because I just hoped and prayed that if I ever got that position in the first place, this is what, like, I'm going to do. Because when I was at my level, when I was younger, there wasn't that person to look at to help me. And this is where I'm really gonna tell a story of a mutual friend of ours called Dines. One of the first black people that I saw, like, in the uk, that was where I wanted to be. D is the founder of Studio Blub, one of the leadings of independent SO studios and agencies in the uk. And that was the only example, even to this day, I think, like, specifically the world of graphic design, visual design, it's still the only example that I've seen that benchmark of someone that's been able to penetrate and be accepted in that sort of community and industry, like, in that way, essentially, that was. He was the first, not me. So if anything, that question should be asked eventually. And it's like, how the hell did he feel like? But again, I feel like the way that he mentored me, took me under his wing is what I wanted to do. For many others that came after me as well, essentially, in terms of the impact that they can make as well, essentially, if we just put some energy and some belief into these young creatives as well. When I use the words underrepresented, I was speaking to people that look like me from places I'm from as well, essentially, like specifically working towards showcasing them and their skills and talents to a broader range. I believe one of the young designers that were working at the time was 15 years old, and the work that they did with us meant that they got a scholarship to college, to university, stuff like that as well. So it meant that we were doing something right and there was something there that just felt right as well in terms of this is what we should be doing and this is the direction that we should be moving in. Essentially. My only thing was just that I got to an age where I got a mortgage and therefore, like, I had to be very cautious of money in terms of just how much I was splurging on everyone. And then it wasn't really the same after that. But I still just remember the impact that was made, like those few years where I was able to just give them everything that they needed and where their careers are now and the cohorts that happens after that. In terms of the other young people I've been able to work with as well, I know the impact of taking them under your wing and really supporting them and seeing them flourish, essentially. Now that's evolved into my new platform, Creator Supply, where again, it's more a case of teaching the hustle, showcasing the hustle, given those gems of knowledge and information that allows for folks to. To fulfill the creative destiny. But ultimately, yeah, again, like, it's always based in giving back and educating and uplifting and encouraging folks to. To tap into their talent, tap into their gift, to go for greatness.
- [37:43]
Radim Malinic
When you talk about Creative Supply, you got this quote which says, my cheat code is simply to always remember that it's about serving others. How can I give more value, create more opportunities and serve humanity in the best way? It's what I mean. You are at that stage for very long time that some of us get in the season three or chapter three, because it's first is about, as in when you. When you egoistic sort of designer. And then it's about, okay, I'm here for the company. What can we do for us? And then you go, okay, there's what is the we, not the royal we, but like the society. What can I do for the other? Outside the working environment, more like on the level of society, and feel like you're doing a lot for others. What I was doing for you at that time, because you Mentioned, obviously, the contact from AKQA that changed your life and she set you on a path. But do you have a person in your life that is actually there for you and pushing you and helping you?
- [38:45]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah. One of my best friends since college days, he's been the one that's been pushing me as well. And of course, my wife as well. Those are probably the only two people that really know everything and have been with me looking every step of the journey and really understand just how my brain works in terms of just what things I want to make, like, where I want to go in my career as well. But what's funny is that, like, I never really think about just what others can do for me, basically, because I thought maybe it's my personality, like, I'm always like a very transactional transaction in terms of I can prove my value if you give me the opportunity. That was always just what I wanted to do, like, even back when I was in uni and I got the opportunity to do an internship for Gilbert and George, the famous British fine artist, and I was living in the studio in Shoreditch. That job was given to me by my typography teacher in uni and by me just going up to him and saying, hey, what else can I do outside of class? I can help you. I don't know, because I felt like so much information, knowledge that he gave me, like, I wanted to pay him back in some way because, again, from my brain work, essentially, what value can I bring, essentially? And he said, look, I stand up for Gilbert and George. When I was your age, do you want to intend for them as well? At the time, I had no idea, like, who they were, and I was like, yeah, of course, let's do it. And that was, again, like, a really big milestone in terms of, like, being an industry, like, working for these artistic legends. But again, just proving my value, an impact, and proving why I deserve to be here. I can be here. You should use my skills in my mind to improve what you're doing, essentially. So for me, design and creativity has always been like a very sort of selfless thing, essentially. It's like I have these abilities and it's up to the people around me, whether it may be Gilbert and George or Microsoft, to say, we want to tap into that, we want to use your abilities to improve what we're doing in this case for us. Yeah, sure, if the price is right, then absolutely, absolutely. Tap into me, like, use me, you know, McKinsey or Nike or whatever. And that's my thing as creatives as well essentially is that we're just vessels that companies and firms it tap into for our style and our flair. You've had a very specific artistic style right in and I've tapped into that. I've seen the value you've been able to make like even you developing your books as well. Again showcasing that value like in book format. Which inspired me a great deal to start writing or thinking about things beyond just being a designer. Essentially that was a start to thinking bigger in terms of okay, we're as designers, our voice can't just begin and end in behance. There's more we can do, there's other ways we can inspire folks and make an impact, go direct to consumer in different ways. You know, learn resource, share the impact and learning. And that that's always been my idea. How more can we reach people and how more can we be that vessel? Which is the reason why I've always wanted to work for the biggest company in the world. I don't know how, but I knew one day it's going to happen. It was just eventually the time's going to happen because I wanted to be. I think you mentioned this as well and there's something that I say. I always want to be at the forefront of where the greatest change is happening. So at the time Na Kqa, the Nike running app, biggest thing in the world at the time. Then McKinsey Design and Business built this changing world in so many ways. Then the Microsoft. The way that I went to Microsoft was because they acquired a startup called Flipgrid that was teaching sort of learning app at the time. During the pandemic. That's when I joined during the pandemic this particular app blew up because of the fact that remote learning, teaching the go to thing that time that summer and they got like an insane influx of users and they needed some new designers to go and work on that. So I worked on the camera and the actual main experience of the particular app itself. And then afterwards I then sort of transitioned into other parts of Microsoft as well before landing like in the AI department two years ago. And I've been here ever since. But essentially no matter. And even after Microsoft, whatever happens after that, I think something to say is that I always want to be like a front line of design and creativity where the biggest change, the biggest revolution, the biggest disruption is happening is where I want to be. Because I feel like that's where the most interesting part is. And that's what I want to give my services and like a me skill Set as much as I can, essentially. So, yeah, that's been my philosophy as well.
- [43:30]
Radim Malinic
So it's very good, Sam. It's very good. And I kind of. The reason why I wanted to ask you about, is there someone for you? Has there been someone for you? But it sounds like you had. You have encountered an interesting bunch of people to show you the way and they were generous with their energy. And this is. I feel like potentially could have been one of the inspirations, because when you talked about Akqa, you said I was on the top of the mountain. But being at the forefront of the pack is like you. There's more space to. There's more space to breathe, there's more space to move because you might be taking yourself to unknown territories, but ultimately it's you who chooses to do that. Because when you talk about it, it made me think of like cycling analogies. When you've got the lead riders are usually the front of the peloton because whatever kicks off, they're less likely to get taken down by the crash behind them. So that's why you stand up front, because you have to work harder while you're at the front. And that's what matters more. The way we join these dots together today is remarkable because the amount of generosity and good value in what you're creating is. It's a story of its own. This is why I wanted to highlight your story about how you go from one thing to another because you want to be in those rooms, because you strive and you adapt and you reconfigure your retool your skill set and go, hey, I can change with the things that I am. Because you could have easily stuck it. You mentioned behind and I remember your font releases. You could have been there and there trying to launch a foundry and now complained about the fact how everyone steals the font and no one wants to pay for it. And this is this and this is that. But feel like the ability to speak different design languages with different creative languages is what provides the longevity and also asserts you as a person of influence with. With your voice and with your philosophies of how actually we can all succeed based on taking your tribe. So I did say that I was going to put you up on the fact that you said we can create magic with AI. So now you work at Microsoft on the back of Flipgrid or got inquired by Microsoft, which is something that you, I guess you. You couldn't really plan for. Ah, now we with Microsoft, but your world has changed and I feel like everything that you've been, tell me so far, and mostly the life that you lived creatively and professionally. How did it come about and how did you find yourself working? Yeah, as I said at the beginning, on one of the biggest software companies in the world, at the forefront of working on a co pilot and other AI products.
- [45:55]
Sam Mensabonsi
It's been a very interesting journey in terms of, I think, like I mentioned, yeah, like I always saw myself being like a company like this eventually. Maybe not in this way, maybe like in another way, maybe. But we're always like in the plan somehow to be like in the driver's seat to the point that you made as well of being at the front as well. It is scary, especially now that we're here in the AI era, leading the charge, as it were, being one of the handful of designers that are in charge of creating these experiences millions of people use every single day that are shaping this era essentially of AI was stepping into like sort of responsibility to understand just what we're doing, like in the impact that we're making in terms of no longer am I just developing posters for the bfi and now we're shaping just how users are interacting with technology and shaping their entire lives. Like my first taste of that was an APA qa. And that's the reason why I always go back to that and say I can make it an influential poster, like influence of a few thousand people, or I can make an influential app, like an influence a billion people. And that, that was what again made me realize, okay, eventually I'll get to the point where I am doing something along these lines designing for a co pilot. But. But now that we're here, yeah, it's a real challenge to actually fit those shoes and actually take it on. I can do it. Right. There's a lot of morality thinking as well. Is this the right thing to do is the right way to do it? And I think more than anything, I'm always just thinking about the user, what they need in the current moment in time, what makes their sort of experience as beneficial and useful as possible. Because specifically Copilot as well, it's more of a productivity app. So it's not like Hicksfield or veo, you know, that creates AI visuals and slop, as it's commonly referred to. Sometimes it's more used for real world application, making your day more efficient, answering very pertinent questions that allow your ideas to be sharpened. I always feel AI allows us to think bigger in every sense of the word. Essentially. It frees up our mind to Let go of the mundane and the most of menial things in life and to think bigger. Because now we know that I can take care of a lot of these sort of simpler stuff. I think specific specifically say designers and creatives as well, specifically. Right. They're in a place where I feel like to take real advantage of it needs to think bigger. So not only no more now are you thinking, oh, how am I going to make this app that does so and so. No, I should be thinking, how am I going to create an experience that really revolutionizes and changes the way people see and experience so and so we've gone from being in the weeds of Figma to being now in the open world again, thinking what's really possible? Like in our lifetime we've got 50, 60, 70, 80 years if we're lucky, what can we do to really make a change? And I feel like AI has leveled the playing field in terms of making us being able to answer those questions, to dig deeper, to become more streamlined in thought and thinking, to do things faster. Essentially that allows us to think bigger in general. Understanding that potential and designing for that experience is really what excites me. Is it scary and daunting still? Of course. But at the same time having that privilege that allows people to really open up and really see the possibility of existence is what excites me to do what I do.
- [49:48]
Radim Malinic
We need people to think bigger and that's very subjective because some people are scared to think even medium size and bigger. Obviously I agree with you, but it's one of these things. Okay, how do you do that? Because you said it provides lots of answers to questions. And again, we are at that phrase where we always will be. Some people will be asking every question, some people will be scared to ask any question. It's like how do you formulate that curiosity that almost tells people that there is questions to be asked because there's answers to be gained in the way of actually getting the benefit and the gain of what's coming back. Because talked about co pilot being productivity potentially is not tool that's being used by creative people from let's say from my understanding or potentially assumption, I'm sure that there is definitely use cases of this. But when you think about the old Henry Ford quote, people wouldn't want car, they would just want a faster horse or a stronger horse. And it's just like how do you educate, nudge, suggest, inform people that AI is doing some of these things? Because having previous conversations with people in various capacity at the forefront of it on the side of it, there are different tools for different things. And it's just. It's almost like we're going back to the software categories when you had a cracked copy of Photoshop. Now you've got, obviously Adobe sort of stands for creativity, even though they do lots of their stuff. And then you've got others and others. So we've got these acronyms, we've got AI for. As a sort of subjective term for a lot of technology. And then it's like, how do you pick the right place and how do you pick the right stuff and how do you even tell people what to do? Because some people might be AI observers, some might be AI early adopters. Who wins? Who's doing it right?
- [51:40]
Sam Mensabonsi
Yeah. Oh, the adopters will always win. Getting stuck in there, like not being on the sideline. Here's the thing, we never go back in terms of technology. Know the same way when inflation hits and the price of eggs go up and they never come down again. Yeah, that's theology. Once something is here, we rarely ever, if ever go back to it not being here, essentially. So learning it and becoming familiar with it is what is useful to simply just stay relevant and stay afloat as well, essentially. So it reminds me of Photoshop. Like what happened to the industry, the way it changed. It got flipped on its head when it came into. When it came into the game. The thing about AI is that it's like that times a thousand, essentially what really excites me like it is how, like it will change everything. And it is changing everything merely in terms of how obvious designers or creatives produce things. But the entire workforce, what that looks like now, what it will look like in 10 years time, essentially, where creatives will still bring value. Even in 2016, the World Economic Forum said that by the year 2030, the most valuable skills that creatives can have is imagination. Imagination and creativity to make things out of nothing. It's 2016, by the way. Before the AI era was upon us, they were saying this. I still believe it's dam in Zulala in terms of our value, still being able to wield these tools around us and be imaginative and creative. But the point you made, as well as to how we coach and coax and guide users to being more imaginative, to open up, that's something that we try and do every day, essentially in terms of the right way to use the app, the right way to ask certain questions, and I feel like the way to really describe it is like the perfect assistance if you're trying to start a creative idea or a project or a business. These are the questions you can ask this thing. The questions that you need to ask to do that sort of thing. A particular project, that particular idea. You can use it at the beginning or the middle or the end, the beginning. Wait, you have no idea what you want to do or how you're going to do it. What even is that's on your mind. We'll just ask and talk to it and see what happens. You can have in the middle, or you have a faint idea of what it is, or you need to sharpen it or grow it and expand it, or use it at the end. Well, you're pretty much almost done with the idea. We need to tighten it up, package it, present it, correct all the small mistakes that I may have. Essentially, whatever it may be, whether it's a book or a film or a business project or anything that is a tool that you're using now that saves you so much time. Just wondering. That has always been my sort of pitfall is that I spend so much time just thinking about I still what to do and how to do it and now save all that time and give it to AI essentially. And I say, okay, this is how you can do it. It's not the definitive way to do it. This is how you can do it like that. And that in itself just plays so much of a part like in me visualizing what success looks like. As I can see a step by step process to actually achieving something. And it may not always work, but at least now I'm on the road to making things, to producing things, to making action. That's the main thing that I feel like AI has given us creatives is that bridging the gap of action, of thought and action. That gap being information and data. That's what we have now. We have that information now. That bridge of thinking and action has now been decreased or completely eradicated. Even now we can go straight from thought to AI to raw action and therefore get creative ideas out faster and easier. And that in turn allows us to think bigger as I think about more things that we can do with it as well. Because now the mundane things are done and we can do much more exciting things with it too.
- [56:03]
Radim Malinic
It's very true what you're saying. I appreciate your view on all of this because yeah, some of the things could challenge is I was spending, spending too much time thinking about thinking. And now sometimes having time to think feels like it's the biggest privilege of life because that's where the imagination comes alive. But thank you for sharing your journey with me today. It's something that I wanted to highlight in the series just to show like how you've created your career standing on the top of the mountain for most of it because you wanted to be there, because you actually got yourself there. So thank you so much. I found it fascinating. And yeah, I look forward to our next conversation whenever that happens in the future.
- [56:44]
Sam Mensabonsi
Absolutely. Very honored for the time and for the platform. And yeah, always a pleasure talking to you, Radim. You're welcome.
- [56:50]
Radim Malinic
Thank you.
- [56:51]
Sam Mensabonsi
Cheers.
- [57:02]
Radim Malinic
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinj. The audio production was done by Neil MacKay from 7 Million Likes podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.