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- [00:11]
Jono McCleary
It's actually a really tricky time with social media as well. The pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media, I think, and aware of your numbers. Oh my gosh, it can really interfere with your creativity. And not just that, but the general noise of the world, I think. It's all. I often talk about this with my partners. You really have to protect yourself now. And it's so easy to get swallowed up in all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world. And really you just gotta shut that out sometimes or most of the time in order to be who you need to be. It's a horrible thing as a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else being creative.
- [01:03]
Radim Malinich
Welcome to the Daring Creativity Podcast, a show about daring to forever explore creativity that isn't about chasing shiny perfection. It's about showing up with all your doubts and imperfections and making them count. It's about becoming more of who you already are. My name is Radim Malinich. I'm a designer, author, and eternally curious human being. I am talking to a broad range.
- [01:27]
Interviewer/Host
Of guests who share their stories of.
- [01:29]
Radim Malinich
Small actions that sparked lifetime discoveries, taking one step towards the thing that made them feel most alive. Let me begin this episode with a Are you ready to discover what happens.
- [01:43]
Interviewer/Host
When you dare to create?
- [01:52]
Radim Malinich
Today I'm Speaking with Jono McCleary, a singer songwriter who bridges folk, jazz and electronic music while maintaining an unwavering commitment to creative authenticity. His discography spans intimate acoustic albums and eclectic dance music collaborations, always prioritizing genuine artistic expressions and creating something deeply personal within creative limitations. In this conversation, Jono discusses how losing his hearing until age of five shaped his conscious relationship with sound, how his late brother Stephen's encouragement transformed a shy teenager into a performing artist. Jonah also opens up about the challenges of maintaining creative integrity, why having no Plan B strengthens his resolve to make music work, and how collaborations with electronic producers expanded his audience while protecting the intimate core of his songwriting. It's my pleasure to share with you my conversation with Jono McCleary. Hey Jono, welcome to the show.
- [02:58]
Interviewer/Host
How are you doing today?
- [02:59]
Jono McCleary
I'm good. Thank you so much for having me.
- [03:01]
Interviewer/Host
I've been looking forward to this one because I feel like I haven't seen you in person for, yeah, quite a long time. So it's nice way to catch up and find out about what you've been up to what you've been doing, and I've got quite a few questions about your process, how you write, what you publish. So, yeah, for those who may have never heard of Jonoma Cleary, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:21]
Jono McCleary
With difficulty, actually. Yeah, it's always a tricky one because as an artist, as a person, you always feel like you're evolving. And it's hard to summarize it, but I just say I'm a singer, songwriter, influenced by jazz and folk music, but also work on many collaborations in dance music as well.
- [03:36]
Interviewer/Host
Fantastic. I remember you and I met through your brother, through your late brother Steve. What was your way of getting into music and actually becoming what you are now today?
- [03:47]
Jono McCleary
Minus. Steve's father was. He was a jazz pianist. So this is something I would have heard in the house growing up. And I remember going to bed at night and falling asleep to the sound of him playing piano. Unfortunately, he passed away when I was 6 and then Stephen adopted the position at the piano and would also sit there at night playing. And it was really comforting for me because the music continues. But it wasn't until. And then he moved out. He was nine years older than me, so he moved out when he was about 18. And it was quite sad for me. I was like, oh, the music has gone from the house. It's a lot more quiet. And it wasn't until I was about 17 where I noticed there's the old cheap Spanish guitar gathering dust next to the piano and just thought I'd like to sing again. Because when I was about, yeah, nine years old, my brother Stephen would get me to sing because he liked my. How I was singing. And we used to sing soul songs together and he would play piano for me, Smokey Robinson, Otis Redding stuff. So with his absence, moving out after some years, then I thought, yeah, I want to sing again. So I just taught myself to play enough guitar, a bit of guitar, just to get some singing done. And I really, really enjoyed it. So I just kept going with it.
- [04:56]
Interviewer/Host
If I remember rightly, were you actually deaf to a certain age? Because I remember there was a story where you were coming downstairs and you can feel Steve playing downstairs. And have I got it right?
- [05:09]
Jono McCleary
Until around five, I think. And apparently I don't know exactly what was wrong with me, but I did have some operations and eventually got my hearing back. And then I'm asking, what was this noise? What's that? What's this? But this is more of something that I hear about because I don't really remember it much. My. My mum and brother would tell me what it was like for me. But it's interesting. Yeah. And I do wonder sometimes if I was able to take a more. I don't know if it had a more creative impact on me with listening to music more consciously and not just being used to it, always being there in the background. Maybe I can speculate, I'm not sure. But yeah, in any case, I got my hearing back.
- [05:46]
Interviewer/Host
Absolutely. So that old Spanish guitar, now Steve has moved out. Obviously you are looking at a guitar. What was the music that you listen, that you chose to listen to yourself that wasn't presented to you every morning? What was the music that influenced you to actually pick up the guitar?
- [06:02]
Jono McCleary
I remember we had this big songbook of jazz songs and jazz chords. There was a couple of Bill Withers songs in there and a couple of jazz standards that were more simple that I could copy the tabs, these guitar tabs, little picture boxes and I could just. You don't need to know anything to just copy these pictures. So I remember trying to, you know, Ain't no Sunshine by Bill Withers being one of the first songs I probably learned to play. As I got more interested in guitar then I started to notice it more in music. It wasn't until I discovered John Martin and Nick Drake where that really blew my mind open with what you can do with a guitar. And that became absolute obsession for me listening to their music. And yeah, I just. I still do. I think they're both incredible. They mess around with all kinds of detuning other different tunings as well. I don't dare to go there. I think for live performance I don't want to be messing around with tunings. And I also enjoy the puzzle of standard tuning. I think it's an endless puzzle and I like the challenge of that. Trying to explore new sounds and new voicings with the same standard tuning. I keep going with that and that's how I go.
- [07:06]
Interviewer/Host
This is an interesting one because this is actually. I was going to ask you about unusual tuning as someone who can only play guitar in standard tuning or potentially like in a drop D. And this is as far as I can go. And I remember people think, for example, says look, I play in a non standard tuning because I don't want to sound like everybody else or what I like when you said, you know what, it's a puzzle.
- [07:27]
Jono McCleary
This is a great subject as well if you want to talk about creativity as well. Because yeah, I think it's too easy to sound different if you change Your instrument. And I've seen many performers who have all kinds of tricks and gimmicks and toys on stage. And yeah, they sound different, but they need all this help to sound different Now. I. I think it's much healthier creatively to attempt to sound original with just normal instruments, if you can. I think that's the way to go. Everyone's different. Some people that maybe that's part of their creative journey to just completely change the instruments and everything. For me, I prefer to keep things dead simple. And I feel like I see things more clearly for what they are.
- [08:05]
Interviewer/Host
I think there's a great phrase and there's a freedom and limitations. Because I remember being a big fan of band called Soundgarden and they pretty much changed the guitar for every song. They used to have mad tuning triple C and whatever. What?
- [08:18]
Radim Malinich
How, what?
- [08:19]
Interviewer/Host
It sounded heavy, it sounded big. And that was the thing, what they did. But as you said, to sound like that, you need a lot of help. You need a lot of room behind the scenes to actually make sure that those five different guitars or six different guitars are all in unison and ready for the musician.
- [08:33]
Jono McCleary
So high maintenance. Yeah, absolutely. Limitations are so important. And actually now I remember I'm kind of glad I got into music before technology really developed as well. Because now it's like everything's so easy to get going with recording and stuff. I had a tape, four track cassette, four track. And it was also very limited in what I could record. And then if you want to do more than three or four tracks together, you've got to start bouncing tracks together forever. So that you had to develop a lot of discipline working like this. And I think limitations are so important, actually. Yeah. Otherwise it can be easily overwhelming. What's possible to do.
- [09:08]
Interviewer/Host
I think we struggled with paradox of choice, actually having so many possible options that you can do anything with everything. I think that must be quite paralyzing sometimes. So what I want to do, I want to jump from you teaching yourself how to play guitar to writing your first song. The moment when you put through the first few chords together and realize, I can write my own music. How did it feel? Like I'm trying to remember.
- [09:31]
Jono McCleary
I think I had a knack for it to begin with because I don't think we got it recorded anyway. But I remember being 11 and even though I couldn't play piano, I was still able to write songs with it. So I could play enough to write and perform songs. And I remember showing my brother one and he was like, what? This is great. So I think for me, playing an instrument was always about trying to create something personal. Not just me trying to become good at it, but actually, I wanted to write something finished, and that was mine. So I do remember that feeling straight away with the piano and then with the guitar, it took longer because you can't just hit the notes. You gotta. Making a sound on the guitar takes a long time to figure out. But I do remember one of the first songs I wrote was called. Bet she does is when I first started kind of picking the strings, and I thought, oh, this sounds good. And then I'm just finding new voicings and ways to play these chords and melodies just jumping out at me. And this song was. Yeah, the first song, I think that got me noticed by a few people as well. Tom Robinson at BBC6. I think as soon as he heard that song, he was just completely in my camp and supporting me wherever he could. And I remember playing that live at my first ever gigs. I had this weekly gig in Surbiton, a pub called the Brave New World. I didn't have enough songs to play for an hour, so I just play, like, a few of my own, and then the rest are like covers. Bill Withers, Paul Weller, Nick Drake, covers. But, yeah, I play this song, and people just loved it. So I was, okay, I can. Maybe I can do this. And I try and build on that, and eventually I could. A couple of years later, I could fill up an hour with my own songs.
- [11:05]
Interviewer/Host
What did it feel like for you to. Obviously, first, as you say, you need to transfer what you've been touching with the keys on the piano, you've been pressing keys on the piano, learning how to sort of transfer onto a guitar, but then using your voice and actually putting lyrics together, because it's almost like a triptych of skills you need to sort of get from one to another. And then you sing it. Obviously, you write it. You write the lyrics, then you sing it as you perform. It feels like there's a sort of chain of skill sets that you need to put together. What was it like to write lyrics, and where did they come from?
- [11:34]
Jono McCleary
Yeah, lyrics is definitely the hardest part or the part that requires usually the most discipline. Very often now, I don't pay attention to lyrics until the very last stage, until I'm assured that I'm happy with the direction or the idea in principle. What I do more often now is a lot of recorded improvisations. And usually the melody will dictate the words that fit naturally and the phrases that I'm Singing. Very often I can hear a theme, a lyrical theme emerging from my improvisations, which kind of takes the pressure off me a bit to write something because there's something there already and it's just a question of me unpicking it and seeing what's kind of hidden in there. And I'm able to build from that theme. But sometimes it can be very laborious, finishing a song and working out a lyrical direction, which feels good enough for the music.
- [12:22]
Interviewer/Host
That's really interesting because I was gonna ask you, what is your process like? Do you start with the melody first you with the song, and then is it, as you said? Well, could be sort of, sort of gobbledygook. There's this improvisation. I remember there was a conversation with Annie Clark, aka St. Vincent, and she was talking about how she worked with David Byrne and apparently he was sending her demos with going. And she's like, are you okay? Because he was just more or less sort of content blocking, just sort of putting things in there, going, anything goes. And I was quite interesting what you say that the theme of the lyrics and the song theme kind of comes through that improvisation, which is just great to hear how you do it.
- [12:58]
Jono McCleary
I think I try and make the whole process as unconscious as possible, and I obviously have to be in a good place to make that happen, feel good. But the ideal scenario is feeling good about yourself, hitting the record button and just being as free as possible, coming back later to observe what you've done and then you can start to structure it.
- [13:17]
Interviewer/Host
I want to ask you about style, temptation, because did you ever have that temptation to have a grand era or like, you know, anything different? Were you always on that path of folk inspired, sort of folk, jazz, soul style music? Or was there any sort of temptation to get a Marshall amp and a couple of dirty pedals?
- [13:35]
Jono McCleary
No, actually, yeah. I've always been happy with the simple setup. And if anything, my temptation is towards jazz. And I almost have to kind of not indulge that too much because I think it takes me away from being accessible if you go too, too far down that rabbit hole. So it's incredibly inspired by. By a lot of jazz music and jazz performers, John Coltrane and people of that era. And I would love to play double bass for jazz music. I think it's such a fun, satisfying instrument for me to play. I kind of keep that as a hobby and an inspiration factor to keep things simple for my music. The other thing is also being open for collaboration has been a huge thing for me as well. So I Think it was the album there is when I first, the first one that I released with Counter Records on Ninja Tune and that was a collaboration with Fib1, who's electronic producer. And that was the first time I really worked together with the electronics. But I don't want to learn any programming myself, so I just recorded. I've still got a tape four track and a few dusty old instruments. And then I work with people who focus on the electronic side of things. And actually, since the Pandemic, collaboration has become a really, really important part of my music now. So every week I'm working on new collaborations in dance music. And again, when this circles back to limitations as well, I also feel this circling back into my own music when I write my stuff. I've got used to these collaborations where I have two chords or four chords and a beat. I like the puzzle of this. Yeah. How do I represent myself with these limitations? And it still feels like it's me. How do I do that? So that's. I've really enjoyed that.
- [15:09]
Interviewer/Host
I'm curious now because you've really taken a few questions from my mind already, which is cool. So obviously with your music you've got a lot of minor chord structures that sort of play homage to the jazz music. And then there's. In your music, there's richness where you can explore, as you say, the puzzle. And I like what Javi used, the words puzzle throughout all this because you can find ways of half notes and all of that stuff. Whereas with dance music, I think, as you said, the limitation is there how much of a space you've got to sort of bend things and explore and do half steps and that kind of stuff, because is that tapestry slightly less dense when you've got one, two or three chords in a beat?
- [15:48]
Jono McCleary
For sure. But credit to the people I've worked with, they know who I am and that's why they want to do something together. So a lot of them have been quite open minded. So often when I'm recording for a dance track, to get me into the mood of it or get me in the creative zone, I will play instruments for it as well. I will work out the chords and guitar, maybe find a different way of playing them and maybe record some double bass and maybe do some choral parts as well and just really get lost in it and so create my own world with it, I guess. And then I'll say to them, look, I've done all this extra stuff just to help me get into it, then I'll send it to them. But you're not obliged to use it. You can just use the vocal. And very often they use all of it. So that's been really surprising. And so actually what ends up happening, I feel like I'm doing something to bridge worlds as well. Just the bridge, the acoustic world with the dance music world. So I have a couple of collaborations off the top of my head. One with Booker Shade recently called Save Me, and they use my guitar, which I just recorded for myself on the final track. And there's another one with Dorian Craft called Set Me Free, where I've recorded double bass and guitar as well. And it's been really cool that they've incorporated all my ideas into their music as well.
- [16:58]
Interviewer/Host
Do they ever push you into places where you might be. Feel a bit uncomfortable or could it be creative dissonance that something could be unusual for you? What I'm getting here is a couple of interesting dots that I'm joining that there was in your music. There's no temptation to do something different or per se, try to reinvent yourself or have a random album. But I feel like you live in this double life, that these dance collaborations giving you an outlet to explore something. So has there ever been anything you're like, maybe I don't want to do that?
- [17:27]
Jono McCleary
I don't think so. I think I like to work with people who already know about my music. And then I feel like there's an understanding that they're not going to push me into or expect me to do something that I haven't done already. But also, I also don't like the idea of people having preconception of what I'm supposed to do. I work this same way with people on my music as well. If I want to work with Matt Kelly with the strings or any musicians that I play with, I really don't like to give directions because I. I know I love these musicians already. And so there's this. There's a trust between us and I want to be surprised. Otherwise I just do everything myself. I work with Matt because I know he's going to come up with some ridiculous string part which I would have never imagined. And I sort of welcomed the surprise of that. And then hopefully I'm able to respond to his creative input and evolve the song into another level which I didn't see coming. This is the beauty of collaboration for me and try to have a similar approach with. With the dance music stuff as well. They just asked me to come up with something and don't give me too much direction. And then I throw them a load of weird things and maybe they adjust the piece a bit to fit my idea and then we take it from there. And it's a very freeing kind of experience.
- [18:34]
Interviewer/Host
That's really good to hear because as a musician you can have a deep sense of ego, you have identity. This is what I want, this is how I want it to sound. But as you said on your second album, on your first Ninja Tune album, you work with 5e and he pushed you to a whole new soundscape. Because your first album, your first self released album was more or less a folk music, right? A folk soul. It was acoustic through and through. And then this evolution happened. What I'm getting from you so far that actually you're very open to it and you're actually happy to be taken on that journey and you trust people. And I think that's when I use these words on the show was like self acceptance. Did you already sort of feel that you are happy to be taken somewhere or did you feel like you were letting some part of you go and thinking is this going to work out or is this the right choice?
- [19:20]
Jono McCleary
I think yeah, I probably am self assured in that sense that it doesn't matter what genre or production elements are happening. I feel like I can put myself in that music if I like it. And yeah, I'm not going to be hemmed in by genres or a sound. It's more about where it's coming from inside, I think, and trying to translate that into sonically somehow.
- [19:41]
Interviewer/Host
Actually this reminded me of one of your collaboration which is very Sam Hampton centric at that time, which was part time heroes that must have been. I mean, Toby, Ross, Laura. I mean again, that reminds me of those really good times with Sam Hampton. I felt like Sam Hampton was on the map at that time producing really interesting things. What was that like? Because there was more of a. Would you say that was more of a sort of even collaboration or was Ross and Toby running the show?
- [20:08]
Jono McCleary
It was quite even because, well, in terms of production, they. It was all in their hands. But I think that might have been the first collaboration I ever did. It was great because they liked my solo stuff and I said to them, yeah, they asked about a collaboration. I said to them I had an idea for a song and so I already had it this written really with guitar and they really liked it. So we just went straight for it and I think it was the single of their album. And I think we did a live session for Charles Peterson back then playing that song. But yeah, production was I knew which direction they were going with, you know, and it was already. The bits I had heard already sounded really tasty. So I was like, yeah, whatever you do, you do what you want to do with this. I was just happy to play this song for them and it worked really well. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:51]
Interviewer/Host
I realized it was such a big single. I just remember it's still. It's kind of embedded in my brain. It was such an incredible song, Absolutely incredible. So when it comes to writing your own music, you've moved quite a few years ago from London to Rotterdam. Right. And you've been very prolific. And even though your album sometimes take quite a few years to produce, whenever I check there's something new that comes from me. How do you discipline yourself? How do you push yourself to actually produce music at a time where we live in a very snackable environment, like snackable society of people trying to create catchy tunes for TikTok, the 32nd attention span. But what you produce is very much staying true to your roots, stay true to your formula. Obviously you're still very much a singer, songwriter and I want to know how do you put a process of putting album together? How does that sort of come together? Where does the. Where's the seedling come from and how do you do that?
- [21:48]
Jono McCleary
It's almost become habitual now. I don't think about it too much. It got really precarious and tricky around the pandemic and I started to think, can I really keep doing music? Since then I haven't played live much, but luckily the collaborations started coming in so it gave me a different thing to focus on. I don't really understand where this, this need to create comes from entirely. It kind of is relentless, I would expect. Maybe one day it dies down and I think, oh, you know, maybe I don't want to write and maybe I don't have anything to sing anymore. But it's just always. It feels like a endless fire inside and I just. It's a become a kind of way of life to just give myself the time to tap into it and share these recordings. I just really. I really enjoy the process. Yeah, it's a part of my life and I try not to dictate the terms or the direction too much and I like to see let that unfold by itself. But yeah, I don't know exactly where this comes from.
- [22:43]
Interviewer/Host
Well, I like your answer because you live and breathe what you do. And for the part of my book based on this series of the podcast, daring creativity there in forever, I'm Trying to understand the biological truths of the responses of our brains, of how the neuroplasticity works in our brain and obviously how when we think positively, when we do that one thing over and over again, our brain is more adapted, more susceptible to those influences, those informational pieces of information that influence. And then we focus more on this. Therefore we produce more of the motivation to actually do this. Because the reason why I asked you how do you feel about writing music at touch times? You can easily, as you say, you can be disconnected to it and actually do your own thing. Or you can be like some of the musicians who are disheartened by the fact that they're not selling albums, they are not getting the streams they should be playing. Because that quantification of the following have I got enough followers? Have I got enough plays? Have I got enough days? It can really play with those people who are not, as you say, as self assured as you are. Because you start firm with like this is who I am, this is what I do. And if the album doesn't do X, Y, Z, does it really matter? Because after all, what really matters is what's on the album and how it sounds and what it says.
- [23:53]
Jono McCleary
Yeah, you're right. I mean it's actually a really tricky time with social media as well. The pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media, I think, and aware of your numbers. Oh my gosh, it can really interfere with your creativity. And not just that, but the general noise of the world. I think it's often talk about this with my partners. You really have to protect yourself now. And so easy to get swallowed up in all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world when really, you know, you just got to shut that out sometimes or most of the time in order to be who you need to be. It's a horrible thing as a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else being creative. Yeah.
- [24:43]
Interviewer/Host
What is it that you tell yourself when you feel like you lose in towards the pressures of social media? What is it that you tell yourself that you know what, I'm okay, I don't have to play that game. Because ultimately it's not the games and the rules that I've subscribed to, it's just a outside noise.
- [24:58]
Jono McCleary
Well, even though it's difficult to get paid in streaming, I do manage to get paid in streaming. So that's one aspect that allows me to keep going, which I'm very, very grateful for. So there I can check out my streaming stats and I see that people are listening and I'm able to support myself to keep making music, but more spiritually, it's the validation you get from people, from individuals as well, who just. I think it's so nice when fans or anyone just reach out, tell you what a song means to them or how it's helped them through a tricky period in their life or a moment and. Or help them celebrate something beautiful. And those things really are really important for me as well because then maybe I get invited as well to a special private event to play for people who's. A song of mine is really important to them as well. Then I can get a grasp of that. It's not just for me, it's also other people are getting something from this and yeah, that's also very important, I think so.
- [25:54]
Interviewer/Host
Would you say since you've been doing the collaborations that you actually expanded your listenership? Would you say that those kind of collaborations brought you new listeners?
- [26:04]
Jono McCleary
I think so. I mean, it looks like it. I love to think that maybe people who weren't into more jazzy folk music might be checking it out because of something I've done in dance music and vice versa, that excites me, the idea of bridging those worlds together, together. And I think music is just music, you know, it doesn't really matter what kind of is it. You can enjoy any kind of music. I think.
- [26:26]
Interviewer/Host
We'Ll be back after a quick break.
- [26:29]
Radim Malinich
This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty coffee company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent. With a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories, along with exceptional apparel. @luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.
- [27:16]
Interviewer/Host
I think. Yeah. To convert a drummer bass head into listening to your first album might be sometimes tricky, but ultimately it's still you. So I still want to go back to singers to write in albums, because what I'm curious about is there sometimes thematic meaning behind it, because none of your albums are exactly the same as the one before or the one, but not one after. So I was just curious how these ideas and influences come together and turn into an album the last album is.
- [27:45]
Jono McCleary
Called Reconcile and that one I recorded. Mostly I would do record my parts first until I was happy with them. And then I would send them over to Five one and we start working together on his ideas. Over the top and the strings. That was a nice way that. That felt natural to do it like this. I think I'm now putting ideas together for my next album and I think I will work in a similar way with a producer called Jesse Kohlhaas in the Netherlands. And he's sort of more jazz orientated. I could record a folk album by myself like a. Like Darkest Light, but I like working with producers who can make the sound more bigger. But with the sequencing, that's when I will listen to the music. It's actually kind of a shame you have to go through this sequencing process because very often by the time the album comes out, I don't really want to hear it anymore. Because you've listened to it a hundred times and throughout the course of recording with other people, you've listened to it thousands of times. I don't know. And it's hard to enjoy it at that point. But I will try to go on a listening journey with the songs and try to hear the whole thing in one go and work out what feels right. And in regards to the theme, it's something that I would usually let uncover by itself. I don't think there's a predetermined theme usually. Sometimes I think, well, with the Reconcile album, there are a few tracks with five. One where I just wanted them to sound bigger. I knew they were intimate songs. That one I wrote for my brother called to see you again and it sounded really, really nice with just me and the string section. But I felt there could be a bit of a house beat on it. And I talked to Five about it and he really wanted to work on it. And I was so happy with how it ended because it still feels intimate, but it sounds big as well. That was the goal for some of the songs to be intimate and big at the same time.
- [29:34]
Interviewer/Host
You mentioned your brother Dave, who sadly passed a few years ago. And I totally knew from the track list, when it says to see you again, that must be about him. Did he ever get involved in any of your music? Did you seek his approval or his feedback, that kind of stuff. Was he sort of involved in your music?
- [29:51]
Jono McCleary
He's recorded on a couple of tracks on the Pagoda's album. It was on Gymnopodist and, pardon me, playing piano. I think when I was about. When I was Starting to get into music. Yeah, I would have sought his approval and wanted to know what he'd think of it. And he was always so supportive as well. I give him so much credit for me being involved in music because yes, I'm not the kind of person who jumps on stage and wants to perform for people. I'm very. My disposition is very shy. So I really needed someone like that to say, you can do this, you're great. Fucking do it. And he was that type, you know, pushing me to do my first gigs and absolutely showed me the way basically. And in the beginning it was a huge influence really. I think he showed me. He had a band called Shine. Do you remember them? Did you ever see them play?
- [30:35]
Interviewer/Host
I think I saw them in Reincella.
- [30:37]
Jono McCleary
That was my first experience of live music, was watching his band Shine in Southampton and I thought they were amazing. And through them I discovered John Martin, Gil Scott Heron and people like that. And yeah, my brother really put me onto some great music when I was a kid. But at some point when I was about when I started writing my own songs, I could recognize that stylistically we were quite different. And I was going to into a more folk world and he was more acid jazz thing. He was a bit dismissive of the folk thing. I learned quickly I don't need his approval now. I'm gonna go do my musical exploration and find out what works for me. But he was always super supportive, always loved to see me in music.
- [31:14]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, your paths crossed in part time. Heroes dad, you know, your Borg stuff actually and the assid jazz stuff really met in the middle by you guys performing at the same time. So let me ask you, so after your first self published album, you got signed by a sub label from Ninja Tune. Did it feel like a pressure that you signed to a label with such weight behind them and did you feel like there was a lot of expectations to deliver or was it just sort of vehicle to get the album out? And it didn't feel like you have to deliver your best work. Having that sort of. I don't know what's the right word to use. Having a sort of anxiety about, okay, now this is not just my own album, this is someone else's releasing it and it needs to be of certain quality.
- [31:53]
Jono McCleary
It was really exciting. Luckily for me at that time I didn't know much about the electronic music. So for me I wasn't as awestruck as some people. My generation would have been in that situation because they wanted to do something experimental with me. And for me to work with 5:1 and do like this sort of James Blakey crossover album. But actually being on their label then I got into a lot of the stuff on their label. I was already a massive fan of Cinematic Orchestra and Bonobo, actually his early stuff. But then, but then I just found out a lot more about it as I was on that journey. And yeah, it really, the pressure was not so much on the music. Yeah, I felt good that we could make a good album for them. It was just tricky managing their expectations and they wanted something very specific. And so we're trying to meet in the middle with this folk electronica thing and the timeframe, it just seemed to go on forever as I don't know how many years those albums took forever because it kind of is a political situation with a label sometimes where you need to check the boxes for them and also yourself can be really tricky.
- [32:54]
Interviewer/Host
It's interesting to hear and if you can expand on this because I think you use the word awestruck because you didn't particularly know too much about the label. I kind of grew up with the label. Lots of cold cut, DJ Vadim and like it was very much a down tempo label and they made themselves famous. And then some 10 years later your album comes out and I'm like, okay, this is a new era. The music is evolving, everything's evolving. But it's interesting to hear that there's expectations. As soon as you sign a contract, things change. And was that a rude awakening or was that a part of your limitations? How did you take it on? Because as you said, these albums didn't happen quickly.
- [33:30]
Jono McCleary
Some people can't handle it at all and they will throw everything out and get out of that situation. For me, I wanted to overcome this. Yeah, treat it like a limitation, like a puzzle. I think I wanted to work this out and get to the end, the finish line with it. And if that meant having 100 conversations or changing what I do slightly, then yeah, without feeling I'm compromising myself too much, you know. But I think that's also an important discipline to develop in the creative world because it's not all going to be easy and in your lap and in your comfort zone sometimes you got to meet other people's expectations and try to compromise and adapt and same thing in relationships as well in your personal life. I like the challenge of going through, knowing that I can go through a situation like that and keep some integrity as well and still be happy with the finished outcome.
- [34:17]
Interviewer/Host
When you think about it, if somebody who listens to it who's most likely from a different section of a creative industry, but from the visual storytelling, visual artistry, you get a brief set by someone who's going to pay for something. But most sometimes, most likely, you are that, again, the enabler of the idea that you provide a commercial service. But to be signed by a label and then be told, this is our expectations just. Well, I think it's interesting to know all the shades of the creative process behind the scenes, like, what really happens. Because ultimately that album there is. I would say it's come out fantastic. I think it's a really great album. I think it pushed you in a different direction and added those extra layers. But when you said earlier, listening to something for a thousand times, how do you keep going when there must be element of endurance and knowing that, you know, ultimately you're going after a goal which hopefully everyone's got the same goal in mind.
- [35:08]
Jono McCleary
Yeah, it takes resilience, I think, to keep going. For me, not having a plan B is quite a good reason as well. I tried doing rubbish jobs and it just. Man, I can do a rubbish job for six months and then I'm. I've got so much respect for people who can do that for. For a lifetime. Oh, my gosh. I really. Not having a plan B and knowing that music is all I've got and all I want to really live for in a professional sense. Yeah. I simply have to make this work somehow. That's my mindset.
- [35:38]
Interviewer/Host
I love the answer. I absolutely love that answer. Because, yeah, if you've got no plan B, you're gonna sit out of plan A very well. I mean, whatever it takes and whatever. Resilience, expectations, ambitions all thrown together. Yeah, I love the answer. No, Plan B is how you survive your career. But, you know, I also want to touch quickly on one of the albums, which was album of covers. And now we talked about music, sort of dance music and collaborations and stuff. That album, Seed of a Dandelion, starts with COVID of Gabriel. And when you talk about. And as you've talked about through this conversation, about being surprised, doing things differently, I don't think that ever anyone would create a better cover of a Gabriel because it's so unusual. It's so odd, so dynamic. It's incredible. As you can tell, I absolutely love the version that you did. But how did you go and cover a track like this, which is obviously a huge track on a dance scene? It's been celebrated for years. It's kind of one of the anth. But how did you choose the song and how did you decide to rework it in a way? And what goes into a cover like this?
- [36:43]
Jono McCleary
Thank you so much. That's just amazing to hear. It's a quite funny story, actually, with that album, because I suggested to Ninja Tune that I wanted. Had this vision for a covers album with a string quartet, and I just think it would be great. I'd always wanted to do a covers album to honor some of the people that I've been inspired by. They sort of said, we'll support you to do the covers album if we can make some suggestions for it. So I said, okay, go ahead. Apparently they sent this suggestion paper around the whole. Or email around the whole office. So everybody's putting ideas on it. And it came back to me and it's like, got a hundred suggestions on it. And I'm looking down the list thinking, oh, my God, these songs. Eye of the Tiger, the really anthemic motivational pop hits. There's no way I could play some of these songs. But, you know, I sat down with my guitar and I went down the whole list. And I think the only song I felt I could cover from that was Halo by Beyonce. And I wasn't actually that familiar with it to begin with, but then I listened to it, I played it on guitar. I was like, yeah, I could do a slightly bluesier version of this. I think it's going to work. Apparently that was enough to appease them that I'd made an effort to incorporate one of their suggestions. And then I just got on with it with my list. And I think if I maybe had 20 songs on my list, which I recorded demos for and sent them to Matt Kelly to record, to write some string parts for a quartet for. And then I got all the. We start to put the ideas together and, yeah, Gabriel just jumped out straight away as soon as I probably got a demo somewhere with his string parts on it. As soon as I heard his string parts, I was just amazed. I was like, wow, this is exactly beyond what I wanted for this. For this project. It was really exciting. Really exciting piece. And to hear it with strings as well. Yeah. Then we went to a studio and Tim Brokens produced it, and we got someone to play electric guitar and got the string quartet in the studio and recorded it as live as possible. It just felt really, really natural to play that song acoustically. I think it's an amazing, amazing song.
- [38:42]
Interviewer/Host
I mean, it's incredible. And that version, I can literally just describe it as a gentle riot, the way it just picks up and it's Unbelievable. I'm so grateful that you actually made that cover. And to understand now that you had a Plan A with the input of the Ninja Tune office. Can you just imagine Eye of a Tiger being done in Jonah McCleary style with spring Quartet? But it kind of shows. It's really interesting because I understand albums as such an intimate expression of someone's soul writing expression what they sort of. When you get that final article from a musician like yourself, you're thinking, is there limited input? Is there maximum input of other people? How do these things happen? And then to know that there was a card going around the offices and people having a sort of suggestion thinking, well it was not their idea in the first place to be making a covers album. So then why do they have to have a say? But then again, potentially limitations, outcomes. I'm fascinated by this because you still gone with the plan A picking up halo out of 100 songs.
- [39:42]
Jono McCleary
And in their defense, the Halo song did really well on the streaming services and justified the album quite quickly. So yeah, they'll be happy with that, I think.
- [39:50]
Interviewer/Host
Well, can you imagine if you did Eye of a Tie might have done even better. That's just a joke. But so we talk about resilience and patience and discipline because Pagod took you another four years to create. It's the albums are not quick but how do you incrementally work that you know that you've got your deadline or timeline or did you know that you're heading towards something? Do you put out an album when it's ready or when it has to be ready?
- [40:17]
Jono McCleary
I'm quite good at setting my own deadlines For a couple of the albums that I've produced in myself where the before reconcile it was Here I am and There you are and Moonlit Parade. I self funded them when I made them and with those I basically I just booked the studio dates with the band to record the album. That was my deadline. So. Well, not to finish the album but to get it recorded and that was my deadline to finish writing the songs. So there's the first deadline and I'm not going to wait until I'm ready. I'm going to give myself a fixed point that it has to be ready by and because they were quite live those albums, it didn't take much to. It just took some mixing work to be complete. With the Pagosa album on instrument that was really, really tricky because we actually finished the album quite quickly. Well, almost finished it quite quickly with Royce Wood Jr. The first inception of the Album was just me and him working together. We had a couple of singles out, Fire in My Hands and Painted Blue. And then at some point getting towards the final quarter of the album, Ninja Tune decide we want to take this album in a different direction now. We want it to become. Maybe because I recorded Age of Self acoustically, maybe that was the instigator here and they really liked it, which is a Robert Wyatt cover, the only cover on the album. They said we want to make this whole album more like that, more like the acoustic one. And we're like, oh my gosh, how many years have we just added to this project? Royce Fortuna was not having it at all and wanted to get out of it. I didn't want to drop the project with them. So I finished the album with Tim Rokins to make it more almost kind of reproduce it more acoustic basically. So it's got this strange process, a strange blend of electronica and acoustic, which was not planned from the beginning and a completely weird process but we got there in the end. But yeah, somewhere in the archives is an electronic version of the album with Royce for Junior, which I'd love to get my hands on actually and see if we can put it out again.
- [42:06]
Interviewer/Host
I think this is the fascinating part because sometimes you hear about albums that get shelved re recorded. This is not unique situation to yourself. You know, a musician leaves, then you know, they have to rewrite the parts and whatever. I think sometimes I would love to know what that sounded. And sometimes the mystery is actually better than on a half baked album or album that's just not quite right. Because in the age of streaming now you get the album that you love and you get to hear all the demos. You're like, this demo is a bit shit. I don't want to hit it in an imperfect way just because there might have been a couple of different notes in the solo. I think that mystery obviously has been taken away from musicians life. People have to be more transparent or feel like they have to be more transparent. Because one of my questions here next is that what does it feel like when you create something from yourself and then it just goes out in the open and then it meets the listener, meets the fans, meets the people potentially for the first time. And what are the reactions like? Did you ever feel like you have to adjust to the fact that the music is now in their hands and they can interpret it in any way? Sometimes, hopefully a positive way. Sometimes it might be misunderstood. So what was it like for you to release a music and then have A reaction.
- [43:15]
Jono McCleary
I think in the beginning, it's quite scary. You're not quite sure if the outside perception of what you do is going to match at all with what you feel about what you do. So you kind of want to try and make sure you're tuned into, does the world need my music? Do people want it? There has to be some reciprocal rolling process for you to want to carry on doing it, you know. Yeah. After some years of performing, I mean, to be honest, I had such an amazing first gig experience, actually, at the Lama Tree Festival when I was 17. I think my brother managed to get me an audition to play at this festival. It was so nice because I played a small room and there was only a few people there to begin with, but by the end of the show, it was full and everyone's sat on the floor absolutely locked in and really super appreciative. And it felt really, really magical to start from an experience like that. So validating and assuring and think, right, I'm going to keep going. This feels good and it feels right. So there has to be some luck, I think, in the beginning that I can imagine. If I didn't have a brother as supportive as Stephen was, it could have. It could have stuck, stunted my growth creatively as well. Like, there's plenty of sibling rivalries and families and people that will shut you down or tell you to cheer up all the time when you're playing your music. And I didn't have to contend with that, which I'm grateful for as well.
- [44:27]
Interviewer/Host
It's great to hear about Steve Legacy and mostly what you guys had and how he impacted your career, the music. I think it's incredible you mentioned about live music and you don't play as much, potentially as you would like to. Where do you see the future of live music and actually contact with music per se? Everything's changing and we need to accept the change is always going to be present. If you could change anything and if you could sort of bring anything back, how would you imagine music to be consumed more in a live space, differently?
- [44:56]
Jono McCleary
I don't know how it's going to be, obviously, but I'm hoping that connection will become more of a thing, more important. Everyone's so comfortable at home now and so online, and whether it's, you know, watching series or texting with friends and not going out so much and everyone's. I'm hoping that as the technology manipulates us to stay at home and spend money, I think I'm hoping that a human connection will become more important or more necessary for us. And there will be I would like to see live music not just happening in venues and nighttime bars, but becoming in more alternative spaces and spaces where children can be as well. I think these there are some festivals which more family orientated and I think it's really nice to be able to play for young people as well and to have inspiration on on them on an early age. I would like to see live music. Yeah. More accessible in more alternative spaces and to become more the human connection aspect of it to become more important as well.
- [45:55]
Interviewer/Host
Well, Jonah, I don't think you can. Yeah. Summarize all of this conversation better than this than to say it's all about human connection. Thank you so much for coming to talk to me today. It was nice to see you again and it was nice to talk again and finding out more about the things that are not that easy to see through streaming platforms or to social media. So thank you for your honesty and thank you for telling me more about how you work because I'm a big fan and I'm looking forward to all those new albums. Because you've got no plan beats all.
- [46:21]
Radim Malinich
The albums that are coming in the next few years.
- [46:23]
Interviewer/Host
Put them up. I will.
- [46:24]
Jono McCleary
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
- [46:36]
Radim Malinich
Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Bikes Podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever.
- [47:40]
Interviewer/Host
You are and whatever you do.
- [47:42]
Radim Malinich
To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the Code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.