B (4:56)

So I've got questions about exactly every single step. Why Stockholm School of Economics? Why did you decide to study and what drove you to it? And then how did you then decide that interior design or working with interior design is the next step? Because I like that you said, I'm 21 years old, I don't want to talk about stock market and microeconomics. I love that because you said you're a creative soul. But how do we trace those two decisions? Like first one to jump in, to do it, start studying, realizing there might be too much too soon to grow up this early and to know too much about economics and the interior designer, like, where's the passion? Where did it come from? So two, two different questions. Masters.

A (5:36)

One, when you're 20, you're completely lost, right? So what do you want? What do you want to do? You don't have a clue. You don't have a clue what's out there. You don't have a clue actually about the creative industry in particular. I'd say that's very common because it's quite untangible in a way. It's very easy to picture how a doctor or nurse is working or a teacher that's close to your heart when you're 21. But why Stockholm School of Economics? It's kind of. In Sweden we have a very democratized school system. So it's, it's amazing for people. It's up to you. And then you can study and it doesn't cost you anything and then you get financial aid from the government. Nevertheless, how poor rich you are, everyone is kind of picking up on that. So it's amazing. An amazing country from that point of view. So why Stockholm School of Economics? It's actually because I'm a very ambitious person sometimes too ambitious sometimes. So I actually graduated with top grades. I had top level grades in everything from the start of the school to the end of the school. So. And the Stockholm School of Economics together with becoming a doctor is the hardest place to get into. They take in like 300 students each year. And then it was like, oh, it's the best. Let's go there. Because I kind of. I can't be a doctor. I faint when I see blood.

B (7:11)

Would you say that was driven? Because you said you were. When you're 20, you feel lost and you don't know what to do. So obviously this sounds like there's a prestige. You said you were ambition. Was that decision driven by you or was it parenting sort of decisions?

A (7:24)

Yes and no, I think, I mean, of course my parents been applauding me from first grade and been always very proud of me and my achievements, et cetera, et cetera. So they always have been and still are my biggest supporters. And my mother is following us on at pond on Instagram and like, oh, how was about the award? How did it go? Et cetera, et cetera. So it's really nice and it's an interesting question because where is the drive coming from? Because now Today I have two daughters and they're soon 14 and 10 years old. So how much should I as a parent push my kids and how much for me it's been. It's coming from me always. And then my parents have supported me and my dad always helped me with homework and the day before a test. And of course they were positive of me going to Stockholm School of Economics, but didn't matter that much. I could have pursued anything else as well. And they would have been, I mean, maybe not becoming something very, very creatively and like fluid. As parents do, they want their kids very often to do something a bit more solid, probably. But it's actually it coming from myself, I'd say. But then I didn't really understand what I got myself into. At high school I studied a lot of languages and then some extra math. So yeah, and that was voluntarily, but I studied Latin for a. For crazy many hours. Very strange. And then why and did it help me? And then today I do a lot of strategic work with finding brand names for companies. So my last thing is actually helping me every day. Who could have known?

B (9:17)

It's those building blocks that we sometimes see as a burden at that time and can feel like, where am I heading? But it all comes to beautifully to the place where it manifests itself as the multiples of ideas and multiples of not knowledge and wisdom that can be applicable to what you do now with your clients. What I wanted to still find out, like, how did you then remember when you were learning Latin for till early hours of the morning, you were thinking, I'm going to go and work for the interior design studio. I'm going to do that.

A (9:44)

I've always also like because I'm. Even though I'm very ambitious and I set my goals and then I really want to achieve them, my drive, it's coming from a very passionate point of view. So I do think due to passion because it's fun, because I can't resist, because I love it. And all the esthetic, the interior design, the feeling in a space has always been a huge passion for me. I was reading my. My mother's interior magazines, like when I was 8 years old and kind of envisioning my house and also design and fashion has always been something that I find also very easy to understand if I like it. So I have a lot of confidence when it comes to fashion and design and it's part of being a happy human being. I'd say same as reading a beautiful book or a film that that makes you feel something. So for me, I feel something when I enter a faith with thought through design.

B (10:49)

I wanted to ask you where does the ambition come from? But you just literally answered that question. Is it comes from the feel like I want to. Literally, you want to feel something, therefore you go after that thing. I love it, absolutely love it.

A (11:00)

Haven't thought about it, but I love. Yeah, maybe. Yeah sounds. Yeah.

B (11:05)

I mean, I'm trying to join the dots because what you're describing, it feels. Well, obviously it feels almost obvious that the surroundings that you live in go to magazines you were reading. But I now think about interior design. It's like the number of elements is limited, right. You can make a room busy, we can make the room minimal. But you always working with certain limitations or certain sort of certain resources. And I think there's something so beautifully magical about the fact like how you can put something like this together. You can inspire everyone walking in a room, you can inspire everyone buying a piece of furniture. Like it's almost Universal language, of course, people will love it, people will hate it. People will choose A or B or something. People will go to ikea, you know, to glue the MDF together. When you think about, like economics in the way of the logic, how it works, and then interior design, I see those two as connected because you've got limited number of resources, limited number of elements that sort of play together. And sometimes in those elements, like the creativity is an option because, you know, you can add it to the mix. So what was it like to realizing that, you know, let's leave the microeconomics and stock market aside for a minute and actually work with the people who are putting Sweden on the map with their designs, skills in interior design. What was that like? What was that feel when you walk into that studio and start working with them?

A (12:27)

But remember, I was 21, but it was like a feeling of like, now my life is starting, so a very, like, inspiring environment and kind of everything is possible. And finally, after all those years in school, I'm at an exciting place. So, yeah, a bit of that and also feeling of kind of finding, you know, when you find your style and like, oh, this is. You find a puzzle in building your personality. So the year before, I moved to France and lived there, and I've always loved France and Italy as well and been living in those countries back and forth, but I never found. It was first here in Stockholm, actually in the same office building where we are right now. So the Circle eight years ago, it was kind of coming to a loop, but it was a feeling of, yes, satisfaction and excitement.

B (13:25)

There was a guest called Karina Lindmeyer on the show an early part of the season, and she said it was like coming home, coming to a creative home, like when you discover, makes you feel alive. You feel like you've come to your creative home. What you describe and it kind of feels doubly right of like, okay, you've come to your creative home, you come to your life's home. Like, you come to your sort of home of your soul by saying, yeah, you know, we feel like my life is starting now. Which, I mean, to be honest, 21, the way we feel sensations for the first time is irreplicable because you can't replicate it later on in life. Like, whatever we do for the first time, that moment stays with us for the rest of our lives. So I'm so happy that that happened for you. It's got you on the path where you are now. But you did, as you say you did that sort of Loop de loop. My favorite phrase at the moment, loop de loop. By actually going back to SSE and finishing your studies, what did you do after you finished your studies? Where did you go next? We'll be back after a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Lux Coffee Company, the first creative specialty comfy company building a platform to shine the light on emerging global talent with a mission to make a positive impact on a creative industry and Beyond. Lux Coffee Co. Offers exceptional coffee sourced from around the world through ethical and sustainable practices. And you can discover the current range of signature blends and single origins coffee hardware and accessories along with exceptional apparel@luxcoffee.co.uk you can use the code podcast to get 15% off your first order.

A (15:10)

I started or it was actually at the same time as I was studying because at the end of, of my studies I, I joined a marketing program initiated by a professor called Michael Dallian and he's now one of one of very few professors in wealth, wellness, welfare and happiness in the world. And he's, he was very different from all of the other professors. He was wearing also back in that time, black nail polish and the rock and roll of marketing within a very conservative context. So he was kind of the first glimpse of opening up my eyes of how I could, where I could fit in. Since I'm also, when I worked at this architect and interior studio, I'm not a designer. I wasn't a designer there as well and never wanted to be either. So with the help of Michael Dalian, I kind of found my space in the world. The intersection between strategy, growth and creativity. And that's where. Yeah. And that kind of space has followed me throughout my career. So. Yeah.

B (16:28)

Tell me about the first time you met Michael Tilly. I'm interested about him. I've never heard of him and I want to know that feeling. So we talking about pretty much if you just realized we talking about it first. You talk about deciding to study Latin, studying, doing things for the first time, going to Italy for the first time, walking into interior design and architecture studio for the first time. What was it like to meet him for the first time? Because you said he opened up a vision that you didn't know potentially could be there.

A (16:52)

Yeah. He's amazing. You have to meet him. He's very human in his way. He's very open about good things and bad things. He's an economic professor filled with tattoos. I entered a course with him. We were 10 people that he and his colleague took in and we had a very Very intensive time of looking at the world of business from a different perspective and angle with a more creative mindset. So he kind of made me start think in a creative manner instead of in a Excel sheet manner, if I may, or statistic manner. So opened my eyes to strategic creative thinking, which for me is very, very different. And this is what I do together with my team. Nevertheless, if there are copywriters, designers, or brand strategists, we need to think in a creative, strategic way. Otherwise we're never relevant. And then we could go home doing what we do.

B (17:56)

Let's fast forward it to where you are today, because you are beautifully putting all of these dots together. You're describing them and joining them together. Because throughout the process of writing this book, Darren, forever, I've been very much looking into the function of our brain. How do we understand what we do, who we are, what we've been given, and how to make sense of it? Because we have got the dictionary right. We've decided that there's a meaning to certain word. Let's talk about Latin again. Then we've got societal meanings, and then we got personal meanings of certain words and actions. Right? So let's take a creativity. There's a dictionary meaning. Societal meaning is millions of different meanings because it's driven by people, like how they see creativity for themselves. You know, some of the most creative people are not working in the creative industry. Some of the most creative people with the best ideas are potentially, I'm gonna say accountants, but that would sound wrong. But, you know, there might be people who are solving complicated problems. And then there's the visual side, the written side, and that kind of side. And it's driven by two sides of the brain function. We've got a default mode network, which is the daydreaming, the ideas, the creativity. And then we've got executive network mode, which is validating what we created. So when you. When I put it in the side of like, okay, so there's your studio, you got your creatives, that defaults. And then you. The executive thinking. Because we need the riot to be started by someone. But then a few days later, we need someone to actually put a strategic thinking on this. Go in. Lovely idea. Let's make it work. And I think what you describe and I think through the ways of how you arrive at this stage, it's fascinating because sometimes data to creators can feel like the enemy. You know, sometimes the strategy can feel like the enemy. Like, we have gone through the age of innocence where anything goes and, you know, random Stuff can be anything. Have you made it work? Whereas now, in the most strategic world, when is, let's be honest, driven more by shareholders, price is driven more by logic, driven by data, you can find the innocent and rebellious idea and then sort of tagging them onto the strategy. Because if you start, you know, with the executive mode first, we will never get anywhere fun. Yeah, maybe that is my obviously understanding right now, but how did you find yourself at Pond and how did you get to learn that what you know and what you do and how you think can be of benefit to creative people and the studio per se?

A (20:17)

I think from what you were saying, like all these insights, all of this data. I'm thinking of a project that we did for a startup company, very, very interesting, run by a team of engineers connected to the Royal Engineering Academy. And they found a way on how to grow herbs and salads in a very sustainable system. And they were really onto something and investors were throwing money at them and they had come to a point where they had a produce being started to grow, but they didn't know how to present it to people or explain it. And they had so much data, they had, like. We started working together and they gave us, and I'm not kidding, like thousands of documents that some of them we flipped through, some of them we couldn't understand any at all. And then we were like, we were having like this anxiety, stress and a feeling of like being drowning in this super complex world of how they were growing these. And then all of a sudden, after a couple of weeks, one of us in the team were saying like, that they're like doing superhero herbs. And they were like, oh, we have it. So. But without all of that drowning in data, we would maybe not have found that one direction that helped us to do something that actually became fun and understandable in, in the context of a super busy, super busy food store. So sometimes I think, or as we work, we need to dig through those piles of analysis and sometimes with our mindset, and this is also something that Mikael Dalian, my professor, old professor, taught me, sometimes looking at things from another angle is giving you the whole kind of reason why in a new way. So that's something we work with every day. And this is how we as a design studio are looking at our projects and how we solve it in the context of today and with the history of a certain brand, finding that thing that. Yeah, we also did a project a long time ago with gloves, understanding how to design gloves for carpenters, for electricians, for this and that type of work. And we understood that different people, different skill sets work differently with their left and right glove. So instead of just doing a similar pair of gloves, we sold in the idea to sell single gloves. So you could not waste an entire pair of gloves, but buy one instead. Save the, save money and save material, et cetera. And also kind of fine tune it as you wish. And this was a long time ago, before all the sneakers, personalization, etc. So we were first.

B (23:32)

I love that, I love that. And you said it beautifully said. It's different angle seeing things from a different angle because it's like how do you step out from the situation, from the problem and see it from, you know, elevated position and say okay, what is the actual real problem? So with pun design, you guys talk a lot about actual innovation, like how do you look forward to the future? When did you landed on this to be one of the pillars of what you do, that people need to know the fact what you're capable of and actually that innovation is a crucial part of the work.

A (24:09)

Yeah, I think we've had it with us from the start and also with Pondesign. Compared to some other studios that has the last name of one founder, we are more of a collective. We don't have one creative vision, we have several. And it's also coming from that we are very insight driven, curious on innovation, we're looking into the next. We're looking into solving a problem with the help of creativity, but not from a functional perspective. Because I do agree with what you said earlier, that if personally I would go for that person who said this is the best. Because I say so, because for me I love that. It's passion, it's confidence, it's something disruptive, it's something that someone is standing for. And I would buy that hundred percent every day compared to the data. And this is also what we in a solid way are kind of creating and helping our clients with. Because of course we must lean into data to help our client to prove a point to a shareholder audience or what have you. But without the passion, without the looking into the forefront, without the disruptiveness, there's nothing. So passion is everything. And we're even speaking about growth through creative relevance. So it all has to be there, be there.

B (25:41)

I think I love your answer and you're right. Hopefully I didn't make the person with the passionate sort of self initiated idea, you know, was the one that I didn't think was right. But the reason why we talk about data, I want to bring Something a bit of an insight, recent insight into the world of packaging, the world of retail and how it all works in through really sort of forensic data. So I work with a nonprofit organization called Future of Food and they create these events for food innovators for from technology to health to, you know, to other sort of areas. And I wish I could remember all five of them and what they do. They run a competition where people can sign up. It's a bit like Dragon's Den or Shark Tank versus TED Talk. So you want to put your startup in the spotlight and say how much you actually creating something towards the future of food. And you can imagine that people who made a competition out of let's say 250 entries. There's a 16 finalists. Most of them are quite well refined. You know, they've already had some traction, potentially some sort of retail success. And their work is often very, very good. Part of the competition has got talks by specialists and luminaries and there was a person called Miranda Ballard from Nielsen iq. Nielsen IQ is a company that knows every single detail of the product that's being scanned in a supermarket. So they know everything. They've been running long term research from families that literally scan every single product. So what Nielsen IQ has got, they've got data of what people buy and how they buy it. So what they do, they work forensically with the retailers and they work on the positioning of like how do you get people to buy into different products, new products now how they know, for example, they know to the millimeter, like how much of the rum and Coke, let's say JD and Coke, how was the formula, how big the logo needs to be? Like everything is driven by so much data. And then you get a person with an idea like, hey, I'm gonna create a peanut butter cups with no sugar and I'm gonna do because I believe in it. And then you realize, okay, where do the worlds collide? When do these two worlds collide? Because you can only get as far until you find yourself in a competition with a multinational corporation who's got all of that data at their disposal. And this is the reality of like at what point do we need to compromise? At what point do we find a new status quo? Because I think the independents have created so much disruption in packaging and branding because they could do whatever they wanted to do rather than being told by data what they need to do. So I hope I haven't lost you with all of this, but how do you see that on your side with the projects that you do like how much of it is innocence and how much of it is reality.

A (28:30)

To me I think it's important that both coexist in a way. And this is like from the food industry. It's interesting to see what's happening right now that food begin on a macroeconomics level in a way food itself too cheap. I mean it's a stupid saying but you get what you pay for and we don't pay enough for the food that we consume. And it, it's sad that it's. In some countries it's cheaper to buy a soda than water. Yeah. But what we see in Sweden from a local point of view for me in Stockholm we have a few different big grocery shames exactly like you have in the UK or as in France, et cetera, et cetera. But now we also see the start of a kind of anti big grocery chain revolution with the new co op starting up, looking into the ingredients in the bread, making sure that it's made from sustainably farmed with nutritional higher value, et cetera, et cetera. So we have one initiative from a baker in Stockholm now opening up chains like this and you have several organic initiatives in the uk. And then also what, what we see then working with a lot of big A brands and also with private label food brands, fmcg, they also pick up on these trends so amplifying the trend. So if you have a positive view on the future, those small local initiatives are also picked up by the huge big corporate corp. Because there's value in it. It's the same like what's been going on with organic. Something that was quite unusual at a big shop 20 years ago is now standard. So I have a very positive thing with a positive view on the future when it comes to food. I think that we learn a lot. We want to with the longevity trend, we want to live longer, we want to be healthier and then we need to do something about the food we consume and, and make sure that it has. Yeah. That it's actually healthy and beneficial both from our body point of view, but also from a global point of view.

B (30:55)

What you describe it and what it makes me think about is, is the passion and data. So with the passion and the data, when you think about it like we can make better choices and be better and be funded by VCs who are actually looking to create a sustainable future. Because when we look back at some point and realizing, okay, well some people got really rich, some stuff worked. You know, pensioners were putting money into these really rich VC companies because they were again, you know, working for the shareholders price, not necessarily for the benefit. And we can ask ourselves like, was it all worth it? Because yes, you got your three pound chicken, but in the process somebody had to really potentially suffer, like something had to go different way. So I think the signaling of the future, I think is very interesting of what we could do and how we potentially influence stuff. Because if the food was expensive, would it be less wasted? You know, would we actually treasury more like, are we living in the world of abundance before something happens and realizing, sorry, this got quite heavy quite quickly. But how does this sort of feature of food, feature of planet, influence the brands that you work with? Like what sort of conversations you might be having with your clients and partners?

A (32:09)

Yeah, this is, I mean we're a specialized packaging design studio. So I mean this is a normal day conversation for us and it is heavy and it should be because it's actually affecting our entire globe. So being Swedish and everything, we're also in the forefront of these recycling systems. So we're actually, yeah. Further ahead. I hope you guys soon, all of you catch up to us. But it's very interesting. We speak a lot about materials, we speak a lot about. We redesigned the Jameson whiskey portfolio and their structural bottles, making the Jameson bottle a tad thinner, still heavy, premium, this enjoyable feeling, but also saving, I don't know among us, amounts of material and money as well. So there are a lot of things that can be done. Then we also get a lot of critique because we, I mean, also being packaging designers, we love this unboxing experience. And my girls are generation Alpha and they kind of sit in front of their computer and do this unboxing ritual, like looking. I told someone like this generation, it's my future because they love packaging more than anyone that I've ever met apart from myself that started to collect boxes when I was like this very young. I, all of a sudden I discovered like I have a shelf of empty packaging. Why? And they're like, okay, I need to pursue this a little bit more. The packaging design, it's so exciting. And now I have an entire TikTok Snapchat generation with me. Like looking at their backpack, who's reading a romantic copy on the back of Pax? Entire generation Alpha, amazing in my world. So all of these details, we need to find more intelligent way to educate and entertain consumers and also find a way to do this unboxing of all of our deliveries without it's feeling overpacked, like sustainably, some not sustainable, like more Of a horror feeling. Sometimes when you buy something online, you get so much material that you just throw away. So how do we do that? So conversations like that we're having on a constant basis or on a daily basis. Sorry. And also the type of material that we do select and why the packaging? It's a vessel, it's from the Etruscan era. I think that's where the first packaging was ever found in the history of human beings. Like unearned, probably for wine. And it was decorated and everything, so really beautiful, if you saw pictures of that. But it was a vessel with communication on top of it already back then. So how do we do. It's a vessel to make food last longer because the worst waste of all is when we throw away food. So how do you make it your longer? How do we make sure that we eat it all up but not overeat? So all of those conversations, how do we protect the cucumber in the best possible way? That story, the plastic on the cucumber, for example. Well, it does actually help the life of a cucumber. So all of that, it's really, really interesting questions. Also with the layering of plastic, how to make recycling, how to improve recycling. Mono material. Yeah. Structural pack, what's keeping the sauce best? A bottle or a box? What's best for the content?

B (35:59)

I love what you describe and because I can see you coming alive, I can see that this is your pure passion now. And my question is, how much of this is an instigation and how much of this is a natural conversation with your clients? Do you educate, do you guide or do you already answer their questions about what could be?

A (36:18)

This is the million dollar question. Because we always try to raise it and we always try to kind of inspire and help our clients to push their boundaries. And then very often, unfortunately, we get back, oh, it's impossible from a production point of view. But we do see a shift. On the other hand. So we do see the last couple of years, we do see a bigger understanding. And also from reactions from consumers, and also reactions from Generation Alpha, from young kids opening up and then they get a small beauty in a huge box and they go like, this is not good, this is a waste. And then, yes, you're right. So there is kind of this increased pressure from consumers and also ambitions from companies. I see. And also more, more clever, creative ways on how to solve it. But also what we always try to infuse in our conversations with our clients is that please do be proactive because the worst thing is when you have to be reactive and there comes a EU regulation kind of, and there's, at the end of the day, there's a stupid kind of solution that everyone hates. That's the worst, I think. So if everyone starts to be a little bit more proactive and daring. We always speak about dare to do, dare to try, but of course it's a challenge because it needs to go through production. And speaking about food and drink, for example, prices are already very high. People are seeing. So, yeah, in a way, you get what you pay for.

B (38:10)

When you think about it, independent innovators, they can start right. If you want to do things right, it costs you more. And then you've got, obviously the companies who are set for, do you think, doing things at scale, but there's always the profit margin. You know, we can talk about, let's say, Apple, how Tim Cook has taken over Steve Jobs and he's improved the profit margin. But in some cases the people would argue that he's killed the creativity. Like, there's certain things that are just not as potentially as exciting as there would have been by. Under Steve Jobs. You get people like Jony, I've in the mix who's like, who's obsessing, like, what, when he used to work there, obsessing about the details and like, how do we remove plastic, how do we do this? And it's like, how do you almost align these worlds and begin talking about a passion and the reality, you know, the passion and the data and the ideas and the reality and how to bring it together? Because when you're talking about the recycling in Sweden, which I need to do some reading on, it made me think of the cycle of, like, how much we put in the way in the process of getting a product to the customer, right? So there's the suppliers, there's a growers, there's a manufacturers. There's all of this slots before the product happens, then someone buys it through another chain and that is between us and the bin. What happens beyond the bin should really be as complicated as the sourcing, right? Because you look at some of the products and I loved when you said, like, have you made a bottle of Jameson thinner? You know how you did that? Like, because that makes you think, like, okay, the, the freighter travel cost might be potentially cheaper. You can travel more, it all makes sense. And then you look at something that costs like £4. Again, we go into cheap products or bottle of wine, £7. And then there's this bottle. You're like, that's a volume of a thing and it just goes into some recycling. And we know that recycling is not always working as it should be. It's a start, but it should be like how do we, I mean this is again big heavy question, but like how do you even think, is there like some sort of programs we need to put? Like do we need to weigh out both to both sides? Because it's going to be a lot more important for us to deal with the waste and getting it back into production rather than, you know, putting all the focus on the shiny and then realizing, oh crikey, we've got mountains of nonsense, crap and rubbish that we need to deal with.

A (40:29)

I was having a lecture at a conference the other week on design trends, et cetera and the entire conference was actually around that and it was Swedish based, so. And that actual, that conference, it was all about the closing of the loop, how we produce. But what like you said when you as a consumer, you ate your yogurt or your sauce or what have you, what do you do with it after? And that entire journey is as complicated as producing it. And in Sweden we're on the way because of regulations and because of people's behavior and obviously nudged from, from a society point of view, but we're on the way of not 100%. Obviously there's a long way to go, but it's a discussion that is going on and for my generation, especially my kids, it's a natural thing to every week go to, to the recycling place and recycle almost everything. So. And then for, yeah, for most parts in Sweden we also divide up food in a special container or food waste in a special container and like waste in another. So I think it's a nudge from a societal point of view, but it also needs to be a consumer active thing because it's sucks to go out in the rain and like deal with all your, yeah, disgusting old milk cartons, but you have to. So yeah, and being a packaging design agency, we speak about this often and how to. And the whole sustainability thing is also opening up a lot. So speaking about inclusivity, packs that are easy for open regardless if you have two hands or one or not, et cetera, et cetera. So I think also for me it's also interesting to look at the beauty category and see what's happening from an innovation and packaging design point of view there with brands like cleansing, like really opening up unisex all, all ages. The shock when I, I mean being a very open minded person and then I looked at the Harry Styles pleasing ad and I saw kind of this great looking older man with nail polish and I was like, oh, that's amazing. I've only ever seen my old professor with nail polish before. But like opening up all of that. So for us that's also part of the sustainable agenda. Something that we discuss on a daily basis with our clients.

B (43:24)

I love that talk about, you know, of what should be, what could be, what should be. And you talk about how the gen Alpha generation has actually got a real passion for packaging. Like, you know, and what it means for brands. And you quite rightfully in one of your op ed pieces said, you know what it is like, who would have thought that we would see this golden era of packaging design? What's it like to see our daughters doing the unboxing experience? And actually what can you learn firsthand from this generation that shows you that real data in real life.

A (43:55)

Yeah. And also with them it's fun because it's even looking at them on how they're unboxing their beauty products or I don't know, small, big and small. It's fun. Or trying out a new soda with a special flavor. They go about it as if it's an entertainment. So for me that's really inspiring and makes me go back to the office on a Monday morning. Like, you know what guys, I learned this during the weekend. Have you heard of this new brand? And it's actually when you lift the lid, it says sharing kind of Happy Monday thing. And then so it made me be able to inspire my entire team that what we work with, it's not only something shallow, it's something that actually is changing people's everyday life. So for me, before being a planner in at an advertising agency, super fun, but really fast and a lot of slop. In a way we're actually, in my mind, we're actually doing something that it's. Is making someone's breakfast a bit more happy someone's day with a small surprise in the inside of the box or what have you. So silly things, but actually important things that makes our lives a bit more entertaining maybe or more educational or. Yeah, something, something. And also what I love with packaging design is it, it's something that you can really touch and feel and like the tactile feeling like you were on to, like the working with varnish. Working with. You can actually feel something when you're holding it. It's not just this AI generated sloth that you kind of look at and you get a headache. It's actually something that you can, you can keep, like I did in my 20s, keep in your shelf as a nice decoration.

B (45:56)

You mentioned two letters that shape up conversation around, around the globe right now. And that's AI and it's a tool, let's be honest. It's what you feed and survey, what you get back. And it's obviously, it's creating mediocre results at best. Not my words, but the words of an AI engineer. How does AI play a role into what you do? Do you guys embrace it as a tool, as a collaborator, as a complete. No. No. How do you guys look at AI and how does it shape your world? Do you use it to any advantage?

A (46:27)

Oh yeah, we love AI. I love AI I think it's, I mean you could, you could look at a coin on two sides. Either you feel threatened by it or, or you embrace it. I think it's so smart. It's like from a design perspective. I mean back in the day we did hand drawings and presented packaging design ideas on a. Yeah. Hand drawn images and then Adobe entered the scene with Illustrator, et cetera. So it's kind of the same shift here. I think we can do so much more, we can be so much more creative, we can do so much more fun. So it's all about how, how we use it. And at the end of the day, interesting. Creativity is about execution. If it's poorly slop executed, it's going to be crap. But if it's done with insight, data driven together with passion and creativity and boundary pushing, it's amazing.

B (47:24)

I love the smile on your face when you say, hey, I love A.I. you know, because you follow the way of not as AI slow, but there's also AI excitement because you said execution makes all the difference. Before I let you go. Since we're talking about the future, is there a view of certain industries, certain products, certain solutions that with your widened lens of looking at packaging, looking at solutions, having the wealth of knowledge of what, what has been created, what could be created. Do you ever look at any particular sector or industry and go, we need to help those guys. We need to find a better solution for that. Do you take your work home? Do you think about it?

A (47:59)

It's also something that, I mean when you work with a lot of consumer goods and you touch and feel them at home, at dinner, breakfast and new bathroom, it's a. Yeah, you don't let go of work. It's a choice and it's fun. The thing with packaging is that it needs to constantly evolve with times like fashion. You don't wear what you used to wear in the 80s because that's old. So. And then even though, like just look back five years ago, it evolves. So I think it's very. Yeah, it's contextually driven. So whatever small players like those we talked about in the food industry, what they are doing, where the world is going, it's chaos, it's war. And then there's a need for nostalgic cues. And then all of a sudden we see a huge world of beauty products with retro nostalgic logos and we love it. So there's. That's what I feel really fascinating with this industry is that we can also help evolve categories. Look at the beer category, for example. A couple of years ago it was only like this traditional design language in the beer category with this craft beer lager, da da da da. And then the microbrewery scene entered and like they challenged everything and launched whatever they wanted and the entire category just blossomed and bloomed. And then we saw the same in the gin category, et cetera, et cetera. So that's a design change driven by product, obviously, but also the design expressions together with a more experimental view on what can be. So I'm seeing that in a lot of different categories from beauty, male beauty, I mean, is it still won't mention any big brand names here, but from Razer XYZ 50.0. Is that the only thing that exists for men? Probably not. I mean, look at the how beauty. How the beauty category for women has exploded with a lot of different types of expressions and experiences. Because at the end of the day it's a personal experiences and it gives you that joy or treat or what have you.

B (50:22)

Yeah, I think we live in a fascinating times of how things can be. I think we often think that life can be hard, that the challenges, that there will always be problems. But how lucky are we to have a conversation about how we can shape the life around us, how we can influence new generations, how we can do things right and do them better? Because everyone's got a voice and as you said, like dare to create, there to innovate, like there to do these things. It's a privilege of life that we can do this because it's ultimately about the accountability of what we can do and how we can teach and preach by making the world better. Because it doesn't happen to us, we can happen to the world and to life. So thank you so much for our conversation. I've absolutely enjoyed seeing your passion for what you do and seeing that sort of generalist mind with economics degree and being a creative so it shines through what you do, work on what you guys do. Be PON is fantastic and knowing more about how you do it, it makes it even more valuable. So thank you, thank you.

A (51:25)

So happy to be here.

B (51:27)

Thank.

A (51:32)

You.

B (51:32)

Foreign. Thank you for listening to this episode of Daring Creativity Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions and suggestions, so please get in touch via the email in the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radim Malinage. The audio production was done by Neil Mackay from 7 Million Banks podcast. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful Creativity, Creative business, Branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the code Podcast. Have a look around and start live in Daringly.