"I don't have a plan B, I have to make it work" (Jono McCleery bonus episode)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Don’t Have a Plan B, I Have to Make It Work"

Podcast: Daring Creativity. Daring Forever.
Host: Radim Malinic
Guest: Jono McCleery (Singer-Songwriter)
Date: November 27, 2025
Episode Theme: The relentless pursuit of authentic creativity and resilience in the modern, digital age, as lived by independent musician Jono McCleery.

---

Episode Overview

In this introspective bonus episode, Radim Malinic unpacks standout moments from his deep-dive interview with musician Jono McCleery. Malinic explores how McCleery’s unwavering commitment to music—with no fallback or "Plan B"—shapes his artistry and survival in an era of unlimited digital tools and constant social media scrutiny. The conversation spans the emotional realities of creative vocation, McCleery’s unique songwriting process, the importance of limitations, and the pressures modern artists face from a world obsessed with exposure and metrics.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. No Plan B: The Power (and Peril) of Full Commitment

• Jono’s Take:

  • “Not having a Plan B and knowing that music is all I’ve got and all I want to really live for—the professional sense, yeah, I simply have to make this work somehow.” (Jono McCleery, 00:59)
  • Jono describes how working in “rubbish jobs” only clarified his need to live for music, not out of recklessness, but necessity.
  • The lack of a fallback becomes a source of resilience, forcing him to treat obstacles as puzzles, not dead ends.

• Radim’s Reflection:

  • “If you don’t have a Plan B, you have to see Plan A through... Sometimes the safety net itself can prevent you from learning to fly.” (Radim Malinic, 01:27)
  • Radim highlights how this single-minded focus sets Jono apart from today’s trend of "diversifying" and sees it as both validating and inspiring for others struggling with creative doubts.

2. The Unconscious Approach to Songwriting

• Jono’s Process:

  • “I try and make the whole process as unconscious as possible... The ideal scenario is feeling good about yourself, hitting the record button and just being as free as possible. Coming back later to observe what you’ve done...” (Jono McCleery, 03:26)
  • Jono allows improvisation and mood to dictate initial recordings; lyrics and overarching themes surface naturally after the fact.

• Radim’s Analysis:

  • Radim likens Jono’s method to “creativity as discovery rather than construction," favoring intuition over calculated design.
  • Emphasizes how this practice liberates artists from overthinking and perfectionism.

3. Embracing Limitations as Creative Catalysts

• Jono’s Experience:

  • “Limitations are so important... I’m kind of glad I got into music before technology really developed... I had a tape, four track cassette... you had to develop a lot of discipline working like this. Otherwise it can be easily overwhelming.” (Jono McCleery, 05:10)
  • The constraints of old-school recording technology forced him to make intentional choices and fostered discipline.

• Radim’s Context:

  • Radim notes that many modern musicians depend on digital “gimmicks” but Jono’s embrace of simplicity leads to more heartfelt work.
  • “Taking what’s given to you can provide you with unlimited outcomes... Simplicity makes you create stuff that’s true from your heart.” (Radim Malinic, 05:45)

4. Navigating Social Media and the Noise of the 21st Century

• Jono’s Reality:

  • “The pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media... it can really interfere with your creativity... You really have to protect yourself now. So easy to get swallowed up in all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world...” (Jono McCleery, 07:01)
  • Jono struggles with the demand for constant self-promotion, finding it conflicts with the introspective nature of true creativity.
  • He describes a need to “switch mindset” to survive this duality—being both outward-facing for promotion and inward-facing for creation.

• Radim’s Perspective:

  • Radim admires Jono’s honesty here, highlighting that the quantification of success (followers, streams, data) can distort the creative process.
  • He frames Jono’s approach—doubling down on self and craft, not trends—as proof that thriving as an artist now takes resilience, compromise, and empathy.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Artistic Survival:
  “Not having a plan B and knowing that music is all I've got... I simply have to make this work somehow.”
  — Jono McCleery, 00:59

• On the Value of Commitment:
  “Sometimes the safety net itself can prevent you from learning to fly.”
  — Radim Malinic, 01:27

• On Creative Process:
  “I try to make the whole process as unconscious as possible... being as free as possible.”
  — Jono McCleery, 03:26

• On Embracing Limitations:
  “You had to develop a lot of discipline working like this. Limitations are so important.”
  — Jono McCleery, 05:10

• On Social Media Pressures:
  “It’s a horrible thing as a creative person, feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time.”
  — Jono McCleery, 07:01

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:59 – Jono on having no Plan B and music as his singular pursuit
• 03:26 – Jono breaks down his unconscious, improvisational songwriting process
• 05:10 – Jono explains the crucial role of limitations in his musical journey
• 07:01 – Jono addresses the creative toll of social media and public expectations

---

Episode Tone

• Thoughtful, open, honest, and encouraging.
• Both Radim and Jono invite listeners to see creativity not as perfection, but as resilience, openness, and a willingness to embrace uncertainty and vulnerability.

---

Takeaway:
Jono McCleery’s career is a bold testament to pursuing creativity with uncompromising honesty and resilience. For fellow creatives, his story offers both validation (in the struggle) and inspiration (in the commitment), reminding us that sometimes the daring choice is not to have an exit strategy at all.

---

For a deeper dive into Jono’s story and creative philosophy, check out the full episode on the Daring Creativity podcast.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, welcome to another bonus episode of the Daring Creativity Podcast. This is episode number 24 of the current series. I'm here to unpack some of the gems from this week's conversation, pulling out those moments that deserve a second look and digging deeper into what makes them special. I'm always on the lookout for the moments and ideas that hit different this week I spoke to Jono McCleary, a singer songwriter who bridges folk, jazz and electronic music while maintaining an unwavering commitment to creative authenticity. This episode, published a few days ago, was titled Dare to Trust a Puzzle and has given me a chance to catch up with Jono and talk about his creative output, be it his own records or collaborative projects with dance producers. It was a fantastic conversation about every angle of what it takes to be an independent musician in the age of now. If you haven't checked out a full interview yet, let me start with these four moments that stood out first from our conversation.

[B]

Yeah, it takes resilience, I think, to keep going. For me, not having a Plan B is quite a good reason as well. I tried doing rubbish jobs and it just man, I could do a rubbish job for six months and then I'm. I got so much respect for people who can do that for. For a lifetime. Oh my gosh. I really not having a plan B and knowing that music is all I've got and all I want to really live for. The professional sense, yeah, I simply have to make this work somehow.

[A]

That's my mindset, as you can imagine. And the reason why I chose this is I love this quote. I nearly named the episode Dare not to have a Plan B because I just love the honesty. It's absolutely perfectly on the nose. If you don't have a Plan B, you have to see Plan A through. And I just loved it because we can have a sort of romantic notions of creative careers, but this is Jono's commitment and I like it because this is his artistic survival. Because Jono's true honesty about having no fallback plan, well, some might see it as a reckless optimism, but I think it's a strategic necessity in the era where most of us diversify. And let's be honest, I'm doing lots of different things in different places, but I would like to believe I'm still working creatively and pursuing creative career. I see Jono's singular focus is the mindset that transforms obstacles from potentially stopping points into puzzles that must be solved. In Jono's singular mindset, it demonstrates the mindset that simply keeps him on Track I love the fact when he mentioned that he used to try working rubbish jobs, but he couldn't really do it. Because I believe people like Juno are destined to be lifelong musicians. Because he talked in a conversation about the fact that there's eternal fire burning that he creates every day. And that's a true validation and kind of proof that someone is destined to do what they do. It's great to know that he can support himself through streaming and other income sources. When streaming revenue fluctuates, his lack of alternative sources might be actually resilience rather than vulnerability. Because for anyone struggling with creative commitment, this moment validates the power of full investment. But sometimes the safety net itself can prevent you from. From learning to fly.

[B]

I think I try and make the whole process as unconscious as possible. And I obviously have to be in a good place to make that happen, feel good. But the ideal scenario is feeling good about yourself, hitting the record button and just being as free as possible. Coming back later to observe what you've done and then you can start to.

[A]

Structure was again, very great to see. The behind the scenes of what it's like to be writing songs was Jono's process and how he does it. And I just felt like his way of revealing this was in a way of sophisticated understanding of creativity as discovery rather than construction. And I'm sure that makes sense now because by prioritizing his unconscious creations over conscious crafts, he taps into something more authentic than what deliberate planning typically yields. I was very curious about lyrics. Where do they come from and how he does it. And I just love that he said that his process of recording, improvisation first, then sort of leads to themes that emerge naturally. He inverts the typical songwriting formula where lyrics and concepts come first. This approach respects the intuition, the idea that our subconscious often knows what we need to express before our rational minds can articulate it. For some musicians paralyzed by perfection or overthinking, I just love that Jono's method offends liberation. Start by playing, record everything and trust that meaning will reveal itself. The discipline comes not enforcing ideas, but by creating conditions where the unconscious wisdom can surface. And then have the patience to decode what you've captured.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Limitations are so important. And actually, now I remember I'm kind of glad I got into music before technology really developed as well, because now it's like everything's so easy to get going with recording and stuff. I had a tape, four track cassette, four track. And it was also very limited in what I could record. And then if you Want to do more than three or four tracks together, you got to start bouncing tracks together forever. So that you had to develop a lot of discipline working like this. And I think limitations are so important actually. Otherwise it can be easily overwhelming. What's possible to do in the age.

[A]

Of infinite digital possibilities? Jono talks about the constraints as a creative catalyst. His original four track cassette recorder forced decisions that modern digital recorders wouldn't do. I was curious about the fact, for example, how he tunes his guitar. If he goes into auto tunings or timings, what does he do? And it was great to hear that he keeps everything really simple. He was grateful for the fact that he started his music career before the digital tools that therefore giving him the space to explore the bare basics. Because in our conversation we did talk about a fact that some musicians use lots of gimmicks, toys, you know, tools, whatever you call it, to help them sound different. But the main episode was called Dare to Trust a Puzzle. And the word puzzle showed up so many times in our conversation because Jono just finds that taking what's given to you can provide you with unlimited amount of outcomes, questions and options. And I love that because taking things simple just makes you create stuff that's true from your heart.

[B]

It's actually a really tricky time with social media as well. The pressure just to be constantly shouting about yourself on social media, I think, and aware of your numbers. Oh my gosh, it can really interfere with your creativity. And not just that, but the general noise of the world. I think it's often talk about this with my partners. You really have to protect yourself now. And so easy to get swallowed up in all the noise and all the pressure to be something to the outside world when really, you know, you just got to shut that out sometimes or most of the time in order to be who you need to be. It's a horrible thing as a creative person feeling this pressure to present myself to the world all the time. So I have to almost switch mindset to do that and then try and protect the other side of me, which is somewhere else. Being creative.

[A]

And the fourth standout moment from our conversation, I was curious about what it takes to be a musician in the 21st century in the age of now. And what are the pressures of being on a social media or having the quantification of your following streams and fans, you know, knowing everything, all the data from around the world, how does it actually aid the creative process? Because Jono is beautifully honest about the fact that it can really derail someone's creativity because ultimately as humans we look for that native tribalistic sense of belonging. We want to know that we are accepted, that we are understood. And you can't see any more of this in the behavior of musicians because they express their souls through sometimes elaborate record making process, which in Jonah's case can take a few years. And some people can skew their output to make it more effective, to go with the trends, to go with what might be popular, what might be useful to streaming platforms, what might be catchy, what might go viral. But one of the reasons why I wanted to chat to Jono was the fact that I wanted to see how someone so devoted to his craft, to his output, and who's doubled down on who they are, is really thinking and who's really sort of producing this work. So I really cherish my conversation with Jono because he was very honest about how you can operate, how you can survive, how he can thrive in a current scenario where in Jono's admission, you know, the the process of just being a musician, producing albums, all of that can get really too much. But ultimately him not having a plan B makes the Plan A just that more valuable, filled with all sorts of tools and skills needed to see the journey through, be it resilience, compromise, compassion, empathy, willingness to try. So if you haven't checked out a full episode, I encourage you to do so. Thank you for being here and I'll see you on the next one. If you enjoyed this episode and would like more accessible resources to help you discover your daring creativity, you can pick up one of my books on themes of mindful creativity, creative business, branding and graphic design. Every physical book purchase comes with a free digital bundle, including an ebook and audiobook to make the content accessible wherever you are and whatever you do. To get 10% off your order, visit novemberuniverse.co.uk and use the Code podcast. Have a look around and start living daringly.