← Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
Daring Forever (Find your Extraordinary)
If you do something, something will happen - Chuck Anderson
00:57:01
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- [00:01]
Radi Malinich
Before we start today's episode, let me tell you about my latest adventure introducing Lux Coffee Company, a speciality grade coffee company inspired by creativity and creatives. The debut range is sourced from some of the best farms in Brazil, Peru, Colombia and Africa offering beautiful flavors and notes. Our single origins and house blends are roasted every Monday for next day shipping. Visit luxcoffee.co.uk and use code podcast for 15% off your first order. And yes, there's exceptional merge too. Lux Coffee Company is where art meets exceptional coffee.
- [00:50]
Jack Anderson
I think it's really unhealthy to talk a lot about how things used to be and how people don't understand this or that now. And it used to be that's just to me like a low form of conversation, like talking about how things were and wishing they were that way again. We can sit around and like get nostalgic for a moment, but let's move on.
- [01:13]
Radi Malinich
Welcome to Mindful Creative Podcast, a show about understanding how to deal with the highs and lows of creative lives. My name is Radio Malinich and creativity changed my life. But he also nearly killed me. In this season, inspired by my book of the same title, I am talking to some of the most celebrated figures in the creative industry. In our candid conversations, my guests shared their experiences and how they overcame their challenges and struggles, how they learned to grow as creatives. A creative career in the 21st century can be overwhelming. I wanted to capture these honest and transparent conversations that might help you find that guiding light in your career. Thank you for joining me on this episode and taking the first or next step towards regaining control of your creative life. You ready? My guest today is a multidisciplinary artist, designer and creative director. Living and working in Chicago, Illinois for the last 20 years. His work earned him a worldwide recognition for his use of surreal color and and light innovative juxtapositions of traditional and digital mediums. All whilst constantly experimenting within his both own practice as well as client collaborations. This episode shares insight on maintaining independence while adapting to technological shifts. How authentic artistic vision can thrive alongside commercial success. Exploring themes of creative resilience, the impact of technological democratization on artistic output. It's my pleasure to introduce Jack Anderson of no Pattern Studio. Hey Jack, Good to see you again. How are you doing today?
- [03:04]
Jack Anderson
I'm doing well. It's beautiful in Chicago. Can't complain. We're the spoils of global warming are upon us. It's been like 80 and sunny every day in Chicago for like an entire month and it's almost October. So I guess you kind of enjoy it while you can.
- [03:20]
Radi Malinich
Before we kick off, if there's anyone who've never heard of you, how would you introduce yourself?
- [03:24]
Jack Anderson
I would introduce myself by saying I'm entering my 20th year of being an independent artist and designer, very sort of mixed media, hybrid, digital, physical. And five of those 20 years were spent in house at two different agencies. But I still maintained my practice with no pattern during that time. But my focus was split. So from 2015 to 2018 I worked as the design director at Habas Chicago. And then I was at another agency called mktg which is owned by Dents New. And it was more of like a experiential live events type of agency. And I was the group creative director there for two years. So I explored that for a little bit. Fortunately never had much conflict and was able to maintain my own thing during that time. But it taught me a lot. And then Covid set me back on my way because an agency doing live events for sports at the time was not very viable to exist any longer. So pretty much everybody got let go except for a couple of people. And it was the best thing that could have happened because I think I'm really meant to be independent and accept me back on my own path again. I'm a dad, I've got a seven and a three year old and so that defines a lot of my life and time and structure and the way I think about work and everything now. But yeah, I think anybody who like doesn't know, I think probably the main thing is that I started when I was 18 and didn't go to college and here I am almost 40 next year and I've seen a lot, really still excited by the state of things and the perpetual student of the Internet and what young people are doing. So yeah, I guess in a nutshell.
- [05:00]
Radi Malinich
In a nutshell I've been lucky to have seen potentially I think every single year of your career because I remember when you came out with your unique style, it was quite something that shaken up the digital scene and the creative graphic design and digital illustration. I think through your experimental way of using creativity, you said something which actually influenced a lot of creativity. But I've got two, almost two quotes that make me define your career. One of them is yours which is if you do something, something will happen. And then there's quote by Ethan Hawke when he did his TED talk, he said give yourself permission to be creative. And everything that I've witnessed you to do from your self initiated work, from your online Stores from your publishing your own books, creating things, going into NFTs. I always felt like your story was such a raw and unfiltered exploration of creativity that has been inspiring because obviously it influenced something that I do. I've dived off to do different things, but still make books and I still make digital stuff, still explore creativity. So when you look back at your career, I know that you worked out how to get people's email addresses from magazine math heads and then you contacted them and that was your kickoff, right?
- [06:18]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, I still do it today. It still works if you know how to write a good email and be real normal and don't weird anybody out. I think that's like the biggest mistake I've seen when I've spoken or talked about this with people. Gotten the emails myself. I've gotten emails from young designers, students, whatever, and people just love to put like the longest stories ever together in an email and then put a PDF in there. And I'm like, I'm not reading. It just feels like a pitch. And I don't really want to casually be pitched in my inbox when I'm not looking for something. So I feel like the only way to capture that moment, if you get someone's attention over email, is like, short and sweet. Right to the point. Introduce yourself. Why are you emailing? What is the purpose of this? Who have you worked for? Give me the top line and then cast those really wide nets and then just go about your life and then wait. I feel like the kind of key to being independent is like, you just have to be planting seeds just constantly, and then you'd be patient. I've actually been doing a lot of it this week, just some outreach to some new people. And it's amazing how different it is in 2024 than it was in 2004, for example. So now it's quite easy to track down someone's email address. Like everyone's on LinkedIn or an Instagram, whatever. You can find, like a starting point, you can find where people work, you can find their title, and then you can quite quickly find their email address. I don't have to guess 20 things anymore and hope one of them hits. I can pretty much just track them down, like, right away. The difference now is so can everybody else, and so you're not really all that special. You're in a sea of concentrated access to everybody at all times. So I can email the chief creative officer, the design director, the art buyer at whatever agency, and that's great, but so can a Hundred thousand other people just like me who are younger and cheaper and can work faster or have a better portfolio or whatever. Whereas in 2004, it was almost unusual to not get a response because if I could figure out how to contact those people, I was the only one showing up. There was no social media, there was no DMS to compete with. So it was a lot easier then because I was good at finding how to contact people, even though it was really hard. And then I stuck out because they weren't competing with all these other. So all this other inbound if they were in a position to hire. So that's like the contrast, though I still think that sort of approach can work. You have to be okay with sending 500 of these notes and getting five follow ups, and then maybe one of those will actually turns into anything. So, yeah, the world has changed so much.
- [09:05]
Radi Malinich
You definitely have a point about things being different in 2004 around a sort of. No mid 2000s and early 2010s, because I remember sending an email, let's say, to magazines, hey, I love what you do. This is my stuff. And they're like, we'll feature your work in the next magazine.
- [09:21]
Jack Anderson
It was like they had something for you right then and there.
- [09:23]
Radi Malinich
Yeah, it was like, oh, is that easy? Whereas, are you right? These days, I sometimes use something called Hunter IO for finding people's email addresses. It sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. But yeah, you're right. When it comes to outreach, it's a different game. But I spoke to Jessica Hisch and I spoke to Stefan, and you feel like we got this perception of people and their work from afar through social media, that through social media you can look busy, you're Chuck Anderson, you post work or you create work. Thinking Chuck Anderson doesn't need to do outreach. Obviously, it's Chuck Anderson. Fuck's sake. You know, like, why would we do an outreach? But obviously what I wanted to do with this podcast, and obviously opening up the doors to newspaper studios and their lives, people like yourself, to actually show we are all equal, we are all running our own businesses, we go on our own horses in the same race, and we try to make sure that we vibe with each other, we inspire each other, like, we share. So when it comes to obviously, like you running your independence down independent shop for 20 years, but no extra five years for agencies, obviously a lot has changed. But in terms of your drive, like, how would you see now as a parent? And I think that's a kind of crucial part. Also this podcast, because there's a lot of parents on the podcast and we can't be mucking about like we used to do some 20 years ago. So when it comes to observing different trends and different work, is your drive similar? What makes you excited about the current design scene and possibilities?
- [10:53]
Jack Anderson
We'll be back after a quick break.
- [10:56]
Radi Malinich
If you're enjoying this podcast and would like more support and information on your creative journey, you can pick up one of my books to help you do just that. My titles cover Branding, Graphic design, Illustration all the Way to Career business advice with ideas how to navigate the highs and lows of the creative process. You can pick up signed paperbacks at no extra cost from my store@nobmberuniverse.co.uk and we are shipping worldwide use code podcast for extra 10% off your order and you can find the links in the show Notes Any day should be a new book day.
- [11:40]
Jack Anderson
Sure. Is my drive similar? I guess to answer the first question, yes. When I was starting out and I was like 18, 19 and it was just such a different time, the network of people like in our world was quite small. It was pretty niche. There was no Instagram to quickly find everybody else or easy ways to learn the tools that we all use. You had to dig and really work at that stuff. So I think when I started out it felt a little bit Wild West. I could spend a lot of time doing. You just felt like you were one of the only ones and then it doesn't feel that way anymore, which is good and bad, right? It's good because I'm excited at the idea that tools are more accessible than ever before to more people. I think that's a net positive for the world and people to be able to have access to tools and to be able to teach themselves things and all that and find resources. I would have killed to have the types of resources we have now when I was 18, 16, 17, 18 years old. But the drive when I started I think was a lot more. I didn't go to college, there's no degree. And it was like, well, if I don't do this, what am I going to do? I don't want to work in a restaurant forever. And it was like a little bit more of a do or die moment for me at that age. I moved in with a friend, I got rent to pay. Now I better figure this out. And ideally I'm figuring out doing stuff that I love. So there's that. Now it's twofold. It's not quite that desperation feeling now. Now it's more of a Sustaining. I've been doing this for 20 years, but when I say this, it's like all over the place. It's different. And every year is different. Two of my best years ever out of the last 20 years. One was 2008 during the recession, when things were quite bad. And I don't know, I got really lucky that year. I had an enormous Microsoft project. I had a huge Under Armour project that year. It felt like it was just an avalanche of big budget, big company, great projects that were a perfect fit. And then the second half of 2020, and then, like 2021, during COVID I was back on my own again and I felt like I was just riding a wave and just getting really good projects and stuff, and I don't know why. And then I've had really down years where I'm, like, looking around, feeling a lot of my peers are getting all these great projects and I'm happy enough to be doing some cool work. But you feel a little bit, why am I not getting this or that? And you get imposter syndrome. Maybe you think you're fighting irrelevance or fighting age or keeping up with what other people are doing. That's all very real stuff. I don't let any of it, like, bog me down at all. But I think it certainly enters the equation when you've been doing something for a long time. I think for me now, I don't really know anything else. I know different, like, offshoots and versions of what I do and different ways that I can harness it to make things and build things and new projects. So I know a lot and I have a lot of ideas, but they're all in this creative design, art hybrid thing. And so I got to keep making project and doing things to get that out of my system and then hope that a handful of clients every year find it interesting enough to hire me and pay me so that it supplements all the bullshitting that, like, may or may not lead to actual money.
- [14:56]
Radi Malinich
I appreciate transparency and your honesty, saying that if things are not working out or things are not working, you're not busy. The imposter syndrome can kick in and go, we're not busy. Because I think as creators, especially when you think of some of the runways that you had, like when things were not as populated, not as busy, and you can almost stumble over a client on just, you can make your own happen in a way. And you did that really well. And I think it was much easier back then because what you were producing was really exciting. It was One of its kind. And you had such a trademark style that it was like, okay, well that's what it is. It was also stolen a lot of times. Like you had nothing to more copycats. And we'll have to talk about it in a minute. But I think when you talked about like having worked in Covid and the financial crash, I think that was almost like a validation of having something which is worthwhile that people refine. Because I can echo that sentiment because we were super busy through Covid. Like we did incredibly well. We did also incredibly well through financial crash. Sometimes it's like nonsensical, wait a minute, there's no money yet, you're working. And I think there was always that strive for people to actually do a little bit more. Because when you think about it, if we just carry on as normal as an industry, as a sort of society or whatever, we are just plodding and bob him somewhere to nowhere. Whereas when we had these sort of big tremors and turmoils, oh shit, we need to actually rethink what we do. I think Covid was actually a good resetter for some people to realize what to do and how to do it. You talk about down years and you would talk about like some doesn't have a work. But when you feel like that, how do you get unstuck? How do you tell yourself, do you do audit of your work? Do you like look back and say, you know what, actually, I'm worth it, I'm okay, I'm enough. Because you got such a portfolio of work that a lot of people would kill for and also steal it.
- [16:40]
Jack Anderson
It's kind of like two questions though, because like on one hand, I'm always very grateful for opportunities that I've had. And I'm in a position where anytime I feel down or in that stuck mode, I remind myself how many people in the world are trying to make a name for themselves in some sort of creative lane. Be it graphic design, art, painting, someone making things and selling them on Etsy, little crafts, trying to figure out if that's for them. Film, photography, like whatever. We've never had more people. Back to my point earlier about the amount of resources and tools that are out there and also the way to put your work out there. We used to all have just our own websites until Behance came along or Twitter came along and even early Instagram days wasn't like a place to. So there's just so many places to put your work. And I think everyone's vying for attention all the Time. So whenever I feel a little down on my luck or whatever, I have to tell myself, hey, man, like, you're really one of the lucky ones. There's a lot of people who would really love to have the foundation that I have to on which to build when things are down. I can lean on the fact that I've worked with the brands, collaborations that I've done or have the portfolio that I have or whatever. And I think a lot of people out there have really great work or super talented, but have never really landed great clients or built into a business or whatever. And I tell myself, at the end of the day, it's a pretty small fraction of a percent of people who, if you ask just your average designer, if they know who I am, there's a good chance people might. And there's a lot of people that's just not true for. And so I feel very lucky to be able to say that at all. Whatever skill that may be. I always try and remind myself to be grateful. I think, like, when you're grateful and you have gratitude for your lot in life and like, where you're at, if you're someone who's been able to do some of the things that I've done, it's the best type of reminder to stop feeling sorry for yourself. And again, unstuck, hey, there's a lot of people out there who would kill to be in half the position you're in. When writing one of these, like cold emails or attempting to sell something, that's another thing. It's. It's really hard to sell one thing at all. There's a lot of artists who would make something and try and sell it, and it's not even that expensive and they can't sell it. And then meanwhile, I can put up a book for 120, like I did recently, this hardcover signed book, and sell a bunch of copies. I really shouldn't complain at all. So that's really it. I think you just gotta remind yourself if you're in a position that you're lucky.
- [19:24]
Radi Malinich
I think it's a constant cognitive sort of dissonance. Because if we don't really have defined enough, like, we always feel like we can do more and more and there's always something else to do. And of course you got families to feed, you got bank balances and mortgages. But when I look back like those 20 years ago, it was such an amazing melting pot of a simple, almost a simple scene, because there was a few blogs, there was a certain websites that everyone would Go on. Every day we had these magazines like Computer Arts. And I remember being lucky to be actually in one of, let's say there was five or six or seven magazines focusing on digital art and creative design. And I'd be like, at least in one of them every month. And I didn't think that was enough. I was like, I need more. We need more. Like, it was just like, no more. Because it was almost like we were everyone's friend in a way, because you want everyone to succeed, but you also had to look out for yourself. Let's say a hundred pages in a magazine. And then you go like, oh, right, okay. And then I look back at these magazines the other day and it was just a pile of tall stack. I was writing tutorials and being interviewed and writing articles about this and that, but we never really had that leveler to actually take time and look back and go, oh, shit, we've created so much, we've said so much. We actually shared it. But now you speak to someone who's like, so what have you done? And start telling them about your career retrospective. They're like, what's Computer Arts? That thing has moved on gen zetters and I've taken over the world. They're like doing reels and talking about going to events and having canopies and it's just, okay. I cherish that title we had because it was all about the craft. It was like, why is he pressed? What's the button? What's the glow thing? What's this like actually, like really square eyes in our monitors going, I want to know everything about Photoshop, I want to know everything about the thing. Like, how can we actually evolve creatively at that time? So when you came out with your aesthetic, it was quite groundbreaking because everyone was like, oh, I want that. But your influences, I know that you were starting with photography and photographing your dog bowl with some paint in it or color dyes, that sort of really early stuff. Yeah, that's really going back. My brain keeps in there. And yeah, then you just came up with this glowing thing and all of a sudden it was there. So I know that one of the influences was people like Mark Romanek in a really flamboyant direction style for music videos. So your work was always multicolored, multilayered, and always somewhat related to the love of death metal and heavy music. And it's just this mixture of things that, as you've said, it keeps changing almost year on year, but it always retains the no pattern aesthetic. So a long winded question just to take us through your influences and how they change in shape over the years.
- [22:06]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, he's a funny one to bring up because there's really nothing about his Mark Romanox music videos or film making that has any literal impact on my work. You would never really draw like a line from who he is to me other than to say that when I got the director series DVD set for people who remember that, it was like Spike Jones and Mark Roman and Chris Cunningham and legendary series of bodies of work from these filmmakers who made really important music videos, especially for those of us who grew up in the 90s, all these directors who were doing the best videos ever made. But in particular there was a second DVD on the Mark Romanik one that had little documentary and interviews of people talking about him and his impact on them and how he worked on set and everything. And I don't know why, but for some reason that the way he talked and how intense he was and about just how much respect he had from people he worked with, I don't know, something about that really resonated with me. And I saw it at just like a perfect time in my life. But again, it really had no aesthetic impact so much as like a work ethic approach type of influence on what I did. It's funny, I would say that like most of the influences I've had over the years, it's not people who do work that look like mine. I've never really claimed many graphic designers to be an influence on me. It's funny too, I've done so much work over the years that I would never put up on my own wall. I'm really good at making a certain thing and enjoy the process of it. But the end, it's funny because a lot of times the end result isn't necessarily like my tastes, if that makes sense. And I'm not sure why that is. It's probably something like some weird professional therapy session one day to understand like why I don't ever necessarily make. And it's because a lot of my taste in art and the things that I actually like to look at are a lot more simple, whereas I've always just made really complex or busy looking work. And I don't know why that is. It scratches a niche for me viscerally to make work that looks like the work that I make. But a lot of times it's not necessarily stuff that I would want to put up on the big frame in my house. So I don't know how to square that. So the people whose work that I've always really admired and whatnot are just people really outside a lot of painters and people who work in sculpture and the Mark Romanic example, there's just people that impact on my thinking. To me, like, the style is consistent over the years. I feel like I'm making work right now that you can hearken back to 2004 and be like, oh, I see it's different, but it's still there. It's still me in spirit. Even though the techniques used or the ideas or concepts or subject matter are very different, I think there's still, like, a quality of color and composition that is consistent. Yeah, But I've been trying to rethink that a little bit because I do want to make work that I'd be proud to put up on my own wall. And I think maybe sometimes untrained artists like myself, I'm not having gone to school, I think I have a tendency sometimes to try and do too much or prove some sort of level of technical prowess or level of detail in the work to make up for a lack of conceptual thinking or a lack of a real foundational understanding of something. And I don't know if that's a wild thing to say out loud or admit, but I think it's true. But as I've gotten older and more my recent work in the last, like, year especially, I've been really trying to hone that more. And, yeah, I know this is, like, very long winded, but I think a lot about how to reel in what I do and say it in fewer words, so to speak, visually.
- [25:47]
Radi Malinich
Well, it's really interesting. You said you like simple influences, and your work is complex, and I can totally understand and relate to it, because once upon a time, my work was very late, and I think there's almost a little bit more and a little bit more. You just try and push your style again. There's no defined enough, so you can just keep going until every pixel is covered. When I read Interview with Noma Ba and I met him a few months ago, and he's like, oh, when my work looks too cluttered, I pare it back, and I'm like, you're Noma Bah. Like, you've got five objects in vector in your images. Compared to what we've been doing and you've been still doing, it's incomparable. To someone like him, this is too busy. I'm, like, fucking up. Like, you haven't seen our work. It's just got hundreds of layers of hundreds of groups and it's glowing, it's moving, it's just got everything, the textures. So I think it's different. But I think there is something that was once defined or once said by a philosopher called Alain de Botton. He said that there's two types of kitchen adverts. You got the one which is like Italian marbles, drawn edges, like very clinical, very simple. And that's for people with busy lives. They want to come home to something serene and offset it. Whereas if you do not have conflict in your life and stuff and you actually quite like something, you actually offset it with your work, which is busier, more intricate, it's more explorative. And I think there's something, I think that come from our soul that you projected to your work. And no one says it should be simple, it just should be exact what you put into it.
- [27:08]
Jack Anderson
I think like less speaking less specifically around style or aesthetic. Are the ideas better now than they were? Or is the way that I'm marketed better than it used to be? Like, that's a big one to me. I've realized what I'm really not good at. I know I have good taste and good eye for typography and in like design aesthetics, but I'm not a type designer and I never will be. I don't have the patience. I do best when I try not to like screw around with fonts too much and I just keep it simple. Like I do best when I think about having a website that acts as a white cube gallery space and doesn't look like I'm trying to fool anybody into thinking I'm interested in getting hired to make a website for them. Because I'm not. And that's not something that's interesting to me. I think over time I've come to know myself better. I look back at a couple of the books that I did a long time ago or like the websites I used to have. I'm really proud of the websites I've always had. I've always kept it extremely spartan. It's been very stark. It's always been just this white background with like courier text and inspired by early Internet Drudge Report Jacob Nielsen Web design like not anti design, almost like really fundamental text with images. That's just always been my taste. And I also think it helps my really busy work stand out to not compete with anything else. But I've gotten better at honing in on that notion over the years, which I think is good. And maybe this is like another topic. But I think half the battle and there's the artwork and there's the design, like, the actual work. And then there's how you talk about yourself and how you position yourself and how you post and how you carry your bio and, like, the things that you choose to kind of, like, wrap it all up in. I know a lot of really talented artists who, like, can make themselves seem cool to save their lives, and they have the worst website ever. And I don't mean worst as it could be fancier. You're like, oh, man. It'd be like a band that you love puts out an album, and the COVID is just, like, truly bad. I'm like, I've already lost half my interest in listening to this because I'm questioning your taste all of a sudden that you would put this bullshit on. I'm always really impressed by an artist who also knows how to wrap up everything they do in a really tasteful package. I think that's maybe more than half the battle in 2024. And you can hate that all you want, but I think it's the truth.
- [29:26]
Radi Malinich
Since you touched on album covers. I just saw your post the other day, that Lube fiasco. It's been 19 years. When you did the album cover, when it came up to us, obviously in a digital scene, that made perfect sense. But I remember such a hoohah because people loved it. And there were people going, what the fuck is that? That's not hip hop, obviously, as you said, that's changed the way you work since, and we've established you as an artist. Let's talk about it for a few minutes. Because it was such a pivotal collaboration in your life.
- [29:55]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, it was funny because I met Lupe originally. This is before he had put out his album, but I knew he had a song that was going to be on Kanye's album. And so I knew that I was working with someone who was about to take their career quite seriously. He was in the Chicago suburbs at the time, where not far from my house. So it was just real easy to, like, pop over there and meet him and, yeah, like, hip hop approach and, like, the aesthetic of hip hop at the time, in the early to mid 2000s, it was, like, really coming off a very ostentatious aesthetic and, like, cash money and, like, very gold. It had a certain quality to it, which is sick. And I always thought it was, like, great, honestly. But he had no interest in posturing as anything other than the nerdy anime fan he was, which is pretty common now in hip hop, because I think a lot of These kids grew up on Lupe and then he himself became an influence on them. Or liking anime or liking the Japanese sort of aesthetic that he was really obsessed with is a lot more sort of normal and understood now, as is fashion in hip hop in a way that used to be like, you would have never seen the way that some of these guys dress now in like 2004. And Lupe was really ahead of his time because he just knew what he wanted and he knew how he wanted to present his album and work and he had no shame about it. And I don't know, that really resonated with me. There was something accidentally like punk rock to me about his desire to do a album cover that had colors on it or had a look and feel about it that was just so different than what his peers were doing. And I just really respected that. So yeah, that album cover really defined like the first half of my career for sure. And now I would still do work that looked like that for sure. I just don't really anymore because that kind of particular aesthetic almost just, I don't know, made its way into the diagonal sort of 45 degree lines of like light streaks and stuff that I really did a lot of and helped kick off at that time has just become a common motif now, which I think is awesome. Anytime if I see work now, I can trace it back. Oh, I probably had some small handed like influencing. That's cool. I don't have feel any type of weird way about that. I think it's great. But yeah, it's a fun one to talk about and I think it's aged really well. I think there's a lot of albums that came out at that time and a lot of hip hop from that time that like no one talks about anymore. But I feel like Muppets gained a lot of respect as an artist as time has gone on. And I think that's really interesting.
- [32:24]
Radi Malinich
So when we count the years, you said you come into your 20th year of your career and this was 19 years ago, so we were quite new. Like you didn't have that creative experience and that resilience to actually we've got that young sort of youthful fuel can say you fought the late teens, early 20s and you feel like invincible and bulletproof because you've got your vision and you blink into the reality. So you're like, you know what? I care about what we can do here. Like we block out the external stuff only to be faced with the extent or when it actually comes to us, when the work gets released. So obviously it was quite controversial in a way. Did you feel like it was a baptism of fire? Did you realize, oh shit, this is going to be my career? Because to put something really earth shaking out there, groundbreaking takes the balls to do it. But that's the part and pass. You want to create things that matter.
- [33:12]
Jack Anderson
It was funny because that album, I'll never forget, he performed on David Letterman here in the States. He performed on the late night show and he held the CD up. It was amazing. It was on tv, like on a late night show that my parents would watch. And then that same year, Pitchfork named it one of their worst album covers of the year. And I remember seeing that, I just had to laugh. Honestly, I feel like I've got pretty good sense of humor. I've never been particularly defensive of my work. There's like real early days on message boards, like news today, like early design, like message board stuff where I would have gotten into with people. But that was probably beneficial to my career because I feel like I played that game really well. And if people had shit to say, I'd be ready to fight back, but not in defensive way. That was just like learning how to troll like from a really early age. But now it's something I do were to land on a year end list. Even if it's bad, like cool people talking about it, it's better than no one's talking about it. And it's funny because I think that album cover is actually really great. It really defined like a moment and it really defined aesthetically. Like it feels very 2005 sick. It just does. It was like the quintessential look and feel of Photoshop experimenters. And I think there's something like remarkable about that. Even if it's not technically like the most refined like looking thing. I think it's fun to talk about the story too.
- [34:32]
Radi Malinich
Well, it's interesting because I come from originally from Death Metal C and you got similar background and obviously we moved on. We do things we do like creating an album, not creating a hip hop album cover like that. And the style that you did, it was like that's just a career progression. I remember being in a conversation with some of my old bandmates and they're like, are you on cocaine? What are you doing? Because obviously there's some of those people who listen to Brutal Truth and Napalm Death, like they still listen to Brutal Truth and Napalm Death. You know what, there's a lot of other things in life, but how did your life for Heavy Music and grind. Cool. How did that influence some of your work?
- [35:09]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, the work I was doing early on attracted clients that were like, musically especially. I listened to hip hop. I appreciated Lupe's album. And I have had my moments with hip hop or certain albums over the years. But like in my day to day life now, I don't listen to electronic music really almost ever. I don't really listen to too much hip hop. I do occasionally, but I still listen to mostly hardcore now, even at 40. In fact, I probably go to more shows than I've ever gone to at my age now than I ever did before. Honestly. It'll be like, all right, my wife and kids are in bed and there's this show happening at like a venue mile away. Like I'm going out now and going to watch these bands. And then through that I've started doing work with bands. They're obviously like the worst budgets ever, but that's not why I do it. But yeah, a lot of the work I was doing at the time, I really attract a certain aesthetic that was more in like the EDM side of things. Very colorful. And that kind of goes back to the thing I was saying before about making work that you may or may not want to put up on your own wall, versus again, being at odds with what you're actually good at versus what you like to look at. And I've tried to marry those things more and more as time has gone on. The truth is I'm very drawn to a particular type of hardcore music and a certain type of metal. I'm wearing a hat right now for a band called Knoll K, N O L L. They're very aggressive. They're from America, but from the South. It's just like a very, very, very aggressive, fast, short song like grindcore and then triple B album or record label, which is a hardcore label. And something about the aesthetic of that type of music has always just. I don't know, it just always resonated with me. Jacob Bannon from Converge is one of my, like, earliest influences. And the album Jane Doe is probably like one of the, I would say one of the most important influences on my career. I remember being in high school and that came out and I just wanted to mimic that album package. I would sit there looking at the booklet for hours. Another one from a band called American Nightmare. I was really drawn to well done graphic design paired with abrasive music. I thought that was cool. I don't know. There was something interesting to me about the dichotomy between the violence of the music and like a clean presentation. And so I think that has a lot of impact. I think now on my work, the work I've been doing this past year, I would describe a lot of it as like quite violent. And I don't mean in that there's like blood splatters on stuff. It's just very brooding or like very aggressive. And it's textures and the quality. But then I find moments to balance it out with a real delicacy, I think, by adding really delicate floral elements. And I don't know, something about disarming like macho aggression in something is really an appealing concept to me. Hence like the old English I used. But then the little tiny flower with it. I like that sort of push and pull.
- [37:57]
Radi Malinich
I'm actually trying to find out what does your hat say? Now? I know what it says.
- [38:01]
Jack Anderson
It's backwards here, I think. But it was a K, N, O, L, L. That's a band called Knoll. And their music is borderline unlistenable. Levels of aggression and fast grinding hardcore. But the vocalist is such a talented designer and he does such a great job with all their album packaging and their brand as a band. I'm really drawn to that because there's other bands that sound like this and all the artwork is like a skull being splattered by like a baseball bat and stuff. And I'm just like never going to wear a T shirt with that on. I like the mature like refinement along with the music like that.
- [38:37]
Radi Malinich
I think for my teenage sins I used to wear Cannibal Corpse shorts. It was the Hammer Smashed face or whatever artwork. So you gotta do it. Of course I wore my jeans because I was 14 or 15 back in the day.
- [38:48]
Jack Anderson
There's a place for that stuff. Don't get me wrong, but I can't be showing up to my kids school like wearing that kind of thing.
- [38:56]
Radi Malinich
Actually, speaking of that, I had my carcass T shirt. I was like, should I go and pick up my kids and carcass T shirt? No, I don't think that's going to wash.
- [39:04]
Jack Anderson
The other day there's a band from Chicago called Harm's Way and I'm actually friends with the guys in the band. I'm doing some work for them right now. But they're a cool band. But the name is intense and I have a shirt and on the back I've got a shirt of theirs. It's a black shirt. On the back it says Harm's Way and white letters in A big stack, eight times really big. And there's almost looks like a mummy or like a grim reaper like face and it's got hands coming out of this cave and it's just a creepy shirt. And I was wearing it and then dropped my daughter off at school the other day. I was thinking maybe I shouldn't be where standing here with all these parents standing behind me and I have a shirt on that says something maybe a little bit aggressive. Well, I don't know, whatever. I'm a pretty nice guy. I think everybody knows it's just like some band. I probably wouldn't send my kid to school.
- [39:46]
Radi Malinich
When my daughter was born, I remember buying her napalm deaf little zip up hoodie. I felt so proud and I had a Motorhead hoodie and I was like posting it and then I tried to use it in my talk. I was like, hey look, this is the sort of parent I am thinking everyone's going to be like going, oh yeah dude, you're doing really well. And people are like, what's napalm death? What's Motorhead? I'm like, okay, I think I'll retire this Joe. But Jack, I think what we need to do before we wrap up, we need to talk about AI because what you've done through the years, obviously I think you found a backup Photoshop many, many times. You always find another way of using it. So when you did your crack report it was to use the 3D functionality pretty much to the limit. And I could actually believe how you could manage to push it this far and what you could do with it. But it felt like you and Photoshop got divorced because the 3D got retired. But then you came up with this sort of generative AI which obviously I need to ask you how you felt about arrival of generative AI, but then you embraced it like nobody else to create another. Not a lifeline, but just another chapter of your career. So let's talk about sort of the recent years and actually generative AI, because I think what you created is remarkable. So how did it come about?
- [40:57]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, I'm at the point with Photoshop where I'm just like, I never think that I know everything in Photoshop there's always some new technique. That's the thing. There's so many tools. I feel like I know pretty much what every button and option in Photoshop is capable of. I feel pretty confident that I can tell you what this will do if you click it. But what's interesting is the combination or the order in which you do things, or when I really, really started to understand the power of smart objects, for example, and editing something here, but then having a whole big stack of blending options and, like, layer adjustments over top of a group folder with smart objects inside. And when you realize how to do new techniques or whatever, that really is a powerful thing, I think. And there's always some new way that you could change just finite amounts of tools in Photoshop. Just like in the real world, there's only so many tools at the art store. Like, you can count and get to the end, but the order in which you apply them, or the combinations that you use them, or the combination plus adding one new thing and then combining that with some other thing is that's where the infinite is. That's where the endless opportunities. So for me, I've always been really good at just finding backdoors that scratch the itch of what I want to do. And the truth is, I never learned Cinema 4D or Blender. And frankly, like, at this point in my life, I don't know that I have the patience to. I'm just too antsy. And if someone were to sit down with me and just show me how to do, like, a couple things that I specifically wanted to know, that'd be cool. But it's too overwhelming to me to think about starting from the ground up at this point and adding something like that to my repertoire. But I still did want to try some 3D stuff. And when I started messing around in Photoshop with the tools that they had at the time, which they've completely gotten rid of, now I literally can't open those files anymore because Photoshop fully removed now all 3D menus, and they've completely segmented it into other apps outside of Photoshop, which sucked, because I really love that work, and I would still do it if I could, but I literally can't do that particular aesthetic anymore. All that said the backdoor comment I made. It's like I was able to find a way to scratch the itch of wanting to do 3D by figuring it out in my own weird little way in Photoshop. And then I did a project called Infinite Pressure. It was a collection of 99 NFTs I put out in 2021. I put it out at the truly perfect time. I hit a jackpot on the timing of that project and because the last hot moment with all that stuff before everything bottomed out. But that was a project that had me explore the idea of generative art without actually doing code. But I was channeling the aesthetics of a lot of generative art in Illustrator and reverse engineering how I would want the results to look while not actually doing code. And then the more recent stuff with Imagine Records started in Photoshop by doing Generative Fill and I would just add things one on of the other. As soon as Adobe introduced Generative Fill and I started figuring out like what it was capable of, I was just totally blown away. And then combining that with Mid Journey and then combining that with photography and then combining that with all the other things I already knew how to do and having this whole new foundation of an image to build on top of was so exciting. That was the power I saw in AI was like treating the results as found images that I could use in a collagen rather than, oh, look at this thing I typed out and it just spat out some kind of like cool looking thing. It was like, no, look at this thing that can act as the first 20% of a design that I can go in and build on top of. And that was where I really got excited and where Imagine Record just like a project really started to develop and thrive and then ultimately impacted these like physical explorations I've been doing with resin and all that. So yeah, that's what the last year has been. And then I got this new book, like the biggest book I've ever done and I put out and it's been fun, man. It's been a slow 2024 has been a weird year. It's been like really slow on the client side of things. But I've probably never felt more creative and full of ideas than I have this year. So that's really carried me this year is the energy that I've been able to build and the momentum I've been able to get from my own stuff, despite clients stuff being slow.
- [45:04]
Radi Malinich
When I look back at your Chuck Anderson from 20 years ago and Chuck Anderson in 2024, where imagine wreckage, it feels cohesive. You can see the elements from back and forth. And I think it was our mutual friend James White who once upon a time said, Jack Anderson is always Jack Anderson. You always retain like you even know when you were playing with Illustrator and doing all sorts of weird things, it always had your signature. And I think that's something that sometimes quite hard to find because like you, as you said, we're talking about like emulating record covers and trying to create things like learning what can I do, how can I learn this? And I think the work I think is spectacular. And I can see there's 160 pages. Some people can be defeated by change. They're like, oh shit, there's a generative AI is going to get me out of my work. And I would like to believe we are some of them that, okay, what's the opportunity you've got? Actually you've got tools to your disposal. They're like, I can work with, as you said, 20% as a starting point and then build something on top of it. Because I would never imagine that sort of motorcycle bike parts wrapped in foil could make sense. But you know when you think like how generative AI is being used and most of it is just basically just a jazzed up clip art. Like we used to have clipart 20 years ago and now people just make these images that look 3D. They don't even like change the color hues in Photoshop just to say, hey, actually I've created this preset is the same and I think this is where the imagination actually works to benefit and actually not to anyone's benefit. Like actually what can you do with it? Because it's made for something, it's been engineered by people, it's not been done by not the likes of you. And I go, hey, look, there's amazing the static. Let's build something really interesting. For me, it's engineers building a code. So I think what you created with this, amazing and congrats on another book because I've got crash reports which I got and that was like pushing boundaries with the tools that finding things in your own way are quite unique.
- [46:56]
Jack Anderson
I really resent that. I can't still do that crashport work. I think the only way I have to find like an old PC that has Photoshop installed on it and doesn't require like Creative Cloud that I could just use independent of any updates or anything like that. It's probably the only way I might be able to still do it. And I will say that's one of the scary parts about embracing AI tools as much as I have is that it's a fast moving train. And if you develop a particular technique like you don't own that tool at all. There's no way that I can control OpenAI or mid journey or any of these companies from changing the fundamental way that their tool functions. And suddenly I could find some rhythm with artwork that I love and I rely on their tool and if they banish me from being able to do some particular version of it, then I'm forced to evolve. My thing with that is what am I going to do? What are you going to do? It's what? Am I going to fight against that? Or bitch about it and go post on threads about how things aren't fair? No, I'm going to have to figure it out. Or I know a lot of people have developed and trained models on their own work, own their own. There's other ways of doing it for sure without being so reliant on and having it be more like local on your own machine and everything. I do know there's kind of ways around that. But yeah, it's crazy. It's a new wild west, weird, crazy interesting time. And I think it's really hard to stand out with AI work right now. Which again is why I worked really hard. I mean I spent like a year developing the aesthetic and the look and the quality and the feel of this work without selling anything or like really doing anything with it other than like sharing the sketches and the progress before I finally paired up with Verse and put out NFC collection. And then I published this book getting it out of my system. But it's still like the beginning of what feels like it's going to be like a years long exploration and study and kind of evolution along with the tools as they get more refined and better. But yeah, AI is such a big interesting topic. And yeah, I try and ignore, I try and just like with everything, I just open up the tool and start putzing around until I feel like I've got something worth following and drown out any noise or comments or whatever and just do my thing.
- [49:04]
Radi Malinich
I think what I can always see the link between sort of depth metal aesthetic or like a hardcore aesthetic is what you created. It's still got homage to these things because you can see where your roots are. As to how you progress in your careers is remarkable. And I think what you describe takes us back to the beginning of the conversation when I say give yourself permission to be creative because you never waited on publishing deal to be making your own books. You never waited on gallery to approach you to make prints or whatever. You started your own shop, you printed your own first few books and actually in fact every single book. And I think that makes those creative battles and creative conflict worthwhile. Because actually you can see as you said at the beginning, like you're planting your seeds and see what grows and where it takes you. Because yeah, it might be harder to get work or whatever, but I think we're lucky that we've got our own legacy and heritage around work that actually we can go and we can lean against something. I would feel Very scared to be starting creative career now.
- [50:00]
Jack Anderson
It's interesting because I actually started last week a 10 week mentorship program with a 19 year old student who goes to Art center in California. The faculty at the school emailed and asked if I was interested in being part of their mentor program. I've never done something like that before. I've answered students questions, answered emails, but this is once a week for two and a half months I meet with this kid. Actually I'm talking to him in 20 minutes after we're done here. And I'm just meant to be an open book and help him what I've done and see how I can help and answer questions. And part of the intrigue for me is understanding what it would be like him talking to someone who's the age I was when I started and I'm 39, he's 19. You know, I was pretty much that's how old I was when things got going. And so I think it's, it's like a healthy thing to be really attuned to what young people are doing. I think it's really unhealthy to talk a lot about how things used to be and how people don't understand this or that now. And it used to be that's just to me like a low form of conversation, like talking about how things were and wishing they were that way again. We can sit around and like get nostalgic for a moment, but let's move on. And that's part of why it's so interesting to me to talk to him is because I already, after one meeting last week, realized how difficult but exciting it must be to start a career right now because like you said, everything's amazing. And I think every generation thinks that. When I was 19, like whatever Photoshop update came out, I was probably like, oh shit, it could never be better than this. A computer could never be faster than it is right now. And that is always going to be true. But we have hit a bit of like a point where how much better can the human eye experience a photograph? You know, we start to get so granular about it. Yes. But for the most part we really have at a point where things are just happening so quickly and getting so good at such a rate of speed that every month there's some new just unbelievable AI tool or some new like crazy feature that's just baked into iPhones. Wow, I can't believe this is just part of everyday life now. And yeah, so I think it's probably difficult because parallelization of choice and just having so many options at your disposal right now. But at the same time, my biggest piece of advice to someone like him, or like a young person or anybody just getting started with the wealth of information and tools we have, is to try a bunch of them, but find the one that feels good and try and go deep with something that you feel like you can dig a bit of a tunnel with and take that farther than the other ones while you still keep a tertiary interest in a bunch of them, but pick one or two lanes that you can go a little bit deeper with and become eventually somewhat of an expert on.
- [52:35]
Radi Malinich
Yeah, I think it's a fantastic piece of advice because it's like, how do you become you? Like, how do you embrace who you are at that early age right now? Because you can be almost anyone you've got, especially, like the last 20 years of everyone's careers and with the history before you can be anyone, how do you actually say, you know, what I'm going to do, I'm going to be me and do what I do and what I believe in, because it's so easy to hang onto a style or just jump on a bandwagon. And I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And you can have any tool. We used to be, like, no cycling across the town to borrow someone else's stolen Photoshop on a CD rom. On a cd. Like, just put it. Whereas now, like, you can have every tool, you can have a multimedia studio, you can do everything. But I like your advice and it's always nice to see how you progress in your career, what you're doing and how you give back. And, yeah, thanks for this conversation. Like, it's nice to catch up and there's many other things that we haven't mentioned, but, yeah, it's been great.
- [53:29]
Jack Anderson
I've realized a lot of the AI stuff and the work I've done this past year, I've not spoken about it, like, out loud. So anytime I have a chance to talk about, and I feel like I have a lot to say in a new kind of way, mainly because previously the stuff I would talk about or you would talk about or you go to a conference or whatever would have no bearing on somebody who's not in our industry. What does my dad care about, like, Photoshop stuff 10 years ago? It has nothing to do with him and he's interested in my work. The difference now is that the idea of AI or the idea of some of these tools becoming more pervasive in our lives. And part of the zeitgeist is that they affect everybody. They go beyond our industry, they go beyond peers that we have and the designers that we know and they impact our kids lives and the way they interact with their iPads or TV or whatever. Everyone's starting to have these interactions with their computers and their screens in a way that is homogenized and I'm just using it creatively to make an image. But the conversation can overlap with the same type of thinking that my grandparent might use when they're on their phone and something's predictive or whatever. So it's starting to flatten a little bit and become a more universal conversation, which I think that we're at the very cusp of, but I find to be really interesting and it makes for a more compelling conversation with a broader amount of people than just a sort of echo chamber of other designers and whatnot.
- [54:57]
Radi Malinich
Thanks for being honest, transparent and very, very insightful about how you do your stuff. And I think we one day we need to repeat this conversation and zoom in on other areas of your work in the past. But Jack was really good to see you again.
- [55:10]
Jack Anderson
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it. And yeah, great to catch up and good to see you doing interviews. I know the feeling. Like I said, I was doing one a while last year, it just became a lot of work. It was my second rodeo doing a podcast. But when you get into it and you're having fun and you hit a rhythm, it's really great to spend a little time every week or however often you do it. Just having these conversations that basically feel like a nice catch up with someone and then you're going to put it out there for people to hear. I'm glad, I'm glad you're doing it and wish you luck.
- [55:39]
Radi Malinich
Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, thank you for listening to this episode of Mindful Creative Podcast. I'd love to know your thoughts, questions or even suggestions. So please get in touch via the show notes or social channels. This episode was produced and presented by me, Radi Malinich. Editing and audio production was masterfully done by Neil McKay from 7 Million Bikes podcast and the theme music was written and produced by Jack James. Thank you and I hope to see you on the next episode. Hey, just a quick note to say thank you for joining me on this episode. If this is your first time or you're a regular listener, please take a minute and rate the show on your chosen platform. A short review helps every show to be more visible to new listeners and provide them with value. So thank you for helping out. Thank you.