Inside the Las Vegas Massacre: The Survivors Who Refused to Give Up

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel"

Episode: Inside the Las Vegas Massacre: The Survivors Who Refused to Give Up
Host: Rachel Uchitel
Guest: Mark Gray, journalist and author
Date: June 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode centers on the Route 91 Harvest Festival mass shooting in Las Vegas—the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history. Host Rachel Uchitel sits down with journalist and survivor Mark Gray to explore not the event itself, but the resilience, transformation, and ongoing journey of the survivors and victims' families. The focus is on healing, connection, and the choice to move forward rather than simply "move on," as recounted in Gray's new book, "The Las Vegas Massacre Connections."
(Main theme introduced, 00:49 – 02:22)

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

First-Hand Account of October 1, 2017

Mark’s Experience at Route 91

• Gray, reporting for Rolling Stone, was tasked to cover the festival’s highlights but lived through the attack.
• He recalls how the first gunshots were mistaken for fireworks:
  • "I thought it was fireworks. And then the barrage starts happening, the barrage of bullets just boom, boom, boom, boom." (Mark, 01:30, 08:45)
• The chaos and confusion on the ground:
  • Many thought the shooter was among them, not firing from Mandalay Bay.
  • "We don't want to move on, but we want to move forward. And there is a difference between the two." (Mark, 02:11)

Trauma and Immediate Aftermath

• Mark describes the terrifying images he witnessed while escaping, including people sprawled on the ground and others attempting to offer help.
• He went to a bar before processing the events on TV as the death toll rose. (13:49 – 14:27)
• He experienced lingering trauma around fireworks and seeing people run in "street clothes."
  • "I still have a hard time with the sound of fireworks... I have a hard time when I see people running in street clothes.” (Mark, 19:07)
• Rachel shares her own experience with trauma and triggers from 9/11, facilitating a deeper discussion about PTSD, survivor's guilt, and coping mechanisms. (20:30)

From Survivor to Storyteller

• Mark recounts his decision to write about his experiences that night in a raw, unedited piece for Rolling Stone.
  • "I hit send, closed the laptop. Never read it again." (Mark, 16:55)
• He later meets Mary Jo Vontillo, whose husband died at the festival. Their collaboration leads to the book, which showcases the stories of many survivors and families who've transformed their trauma into action. (21:26, 22:19)

Profiles in Healing: Survivors & Victims' Families

• The book focuses on what people did after the tragedy, not just the event itself:
  • "The book starts on October 1st ... but it's kind of about everything that's happened because of that day, not on that day.” (Mark, 23:56)

Highlighted Stories:

• Mary Jo Vontillo: Lost her husband Kurt, one of the first killed. Her healing journey included therapy and connecting with others who experienced loss/trauma.
• Tommy Maher: New York fire commissioner who drove to the hometowns of all fatally shot victims to perform anonymous acts of kindness.
• Jeff Dion: Became a victims’ rights lawyer after his sister was murdered by a serial killer.
• Deion Green: Former drug dealer who lost his home to a tornado and his father to gun violence, now works with at-risk youth and ran for office.
  (All stories recounted 23:58 – 29:14)

The Lesson: Moving Forward, Not On

• "We don't want to move on, but we want to move forward. And there's a difference between the two." (Mark, repeated, 29:14)
• Rachel and Mark discuss the importance and challenge of allowing trauma to be part of one's story without letting it define their present or future.

The Festival’s Legacy & Community Responses

• The Route 91 festival was never held again; Las Vegas created a Healing Garden and plans a permanent memorial.
• The massacre site is now primarily a parking lot, but 2 acres are reserved for memorializing the victims.
• A recurring community gathering (like baseball games) provides ongoing support systems for survivors. (34:22 – 35:06)

Forgotten Victims, Forgotten Event

• Mark emphasizes not naming the shooter in his book and the lack of ongoing discussion or conspiracy engagement among survivors/families.
• "You forget about the victims. You focus on the number a lot… and forget, like, that those are 58 people. Those are 58 families." (Mark, 31:31)
• The human need to remember loved ones, not just as numbers, but as individuals with stories and legacies. (39:02)

Writing the Book: Perseverance and Purpose

• Mark describes the humbling publishing process—225 pitches, 224 rejections, one offer.
  • "If I could get seven or eight done in a day, that was a full day. And I pitched this book 225 times." (Mark, 37:03)
• Emotional reaction to finally getting published:
  • "I just started crying… something was right for the first time." (Mark, 38:07)
• The book debuted at #1 in its Amazon category and has been embraced by survivors and families as a vehicle for honoring their loved ones’ memories.

The Power of Telling Stories

• Rachel shares why telling stories publicly keeps memories alive, while Mark reflects on his ongoing friendships with survivors like Mary Jo.
• Discussion on ghostwriting, the impact of AI on writing, and the importance of authentic, human connection in storytelling. (41:36 – 42:39)

Mark’s Next Steps and New Ventures

• Mark hints at future projects, unsure if he'll continue in trauma journalism or pursue fiction, entertainment, or biography writing.
• He reveals a new business: writing wedding day storybooks (“I Do Publications”). (42:39 – 43:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On trauma:

  • "I always say, like, you know, trauma to me is I'm always going to live with it, but I don't have to stare it in the face. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to wear it like a backpack. So it's behind me, it's attached to me, but I'm always looking forward." (Mark, 29:22)

• On survivor connection:

  • "The human connection… is just so strong and so… bonds are so tight…something we need in these times of grief." (Mark, 30:19)

• On victims and legacy:

  • “Mary Jo said, I just, you know, why did she want to embark on this adventure with me? She said, I just don't want people to forget Kurt.” (Mark, 39:02)

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Important Timestamps

• Mark’s first-hand account of the shooting: 07:17 – 11:24
• Immediate aftermath, impact of trauma: 13:15 – 16:02, 19:07 – 20:54
• Discussion of the book and stories of healing: 21:26 – 29:32
• Las Vegas memorials and community support: 34:22 – 35:06
• Publishing struggles and triumph: 36:05 – 38:07
• Legacy, next steps, and new writing ventures: 39:02 – 43:25

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Conclusion

This episode is a compelling, deeply human look at life after tragedy—how survivors, journalists, and families refuse to let loss and pain define them. Instead, they forge new bonds, honor their loved ones, and use their experiences to fuel empathy, activism, and storytelling. Rather than reliving the horror of the Route 91 shooting, the episode uplifts, emphasizing unstinting hope, community, and the enduring power of choosing to move forward, not simply move on.

Where to Find the Book & Guest:

• The Las Vegas Massacre Connections is available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
• Mark on Instagram: @themarkgray
• Book info: lasvegasmassacreconnections.com | Instagram: @lasvegasmassacreconnections

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Transcript

[A]

Before we get started, I wanted to let you in on a little secret. What you're about to hear is only part of the conversation. Every week we keep talking over on Patreon, where you'll find exclusive bonus episodes, behind the scenes footage after show, conversations with my guests, and personal stories from my life that I don't share anywhere else. If you love Misunderstood, Patreon is where you'll get the full experience. Just head over to patreon.com misunderstanding, misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel, or click the link in the show notes. I'd love to have you join us.

[B]

Everything is going well and. And the fireworks started. The first shot rang out and we

[A]

hear pop, pop, pop. Yes, you heard.

[B]

I was put to the pedal.

[A]

1690, 10 means we got shots fired at 4:15 a at route to 91. Sounded like an automatic firearm. For eight years, the Las Vegas massacre has been remembered as the deadliest mass shooting in modern American history. But this isn't a story about the shooter. It's about the people who were there and the incredible ways they found the strength to move forward.

[B]

On October 1, 2017, I was working for Rolling Stone. Now, I was there initially supposed to write about the 10 best things I saw. This weekend at the Route 91 Harvest Festival, things changed drastically on the final act.

[A]

Mark wasn't just covering one of the biggest stories in American history. He was living it. One moment he was taking notes for Rolling Stone. The next, he was running for his life.

[B]

I thought it was fireworks. And then the barrage starts happening, the barrage of bullets just boom, boom, boom, boom.

[A]

When I sat down with Mark, I thought we were going to talk about what happened that night. Instead, we talked about what happened after. How do you keep living after unimaginable loss? How do you find hope again? How do you live through survivor's guilt?

[B]

These people made this moment, this tragic, terrible moment of silver lining their life. If my spouse, if my wife died, you know, in front of me in that manner, I don't know that I could get up out of bed the next day.

[A]

Through his book, Mark introduces us to people whose lives changed forever that night. Widows, survivors, families carrying unimaginable grief, who somehow found purpose on the other side of tragedy.

[B]

We don't want to move on, but we want to move forward. And there is a difference between the two.

[A]

That may have been the most powerful lesson I took away from this conversation. You don't have to move on, but you can choose to move forward. And this isn't just a story about tragedy. It's a story about resilience, healing, and the incredible strength of the human spirit. Here is my conversation with Mark Gray. Mark, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood. How are you?

[B]

I'm well. How about yourself? Thanks for having me.

[A]

I'm great. It's been very interesting. I came back to Vegas partly to interview you and it's so nice to see you again.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I guess we've met in our past. I don't remember what I did last week, so don't take offense to it.

[B]

We were, you know, I had a run of nightclubs, you know, many, many another, a few lifetimes ago.

[A]

Yeah. How is Vegas compared to what it was when I was here?

[B]

So many more rules now.

[A]

Really?

[B]

There's so many more. I mean, you know, back in those days, you could get away with anything you wanted, really. And it's not the case anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it's a sports town now too, which was not the case either.

[A]

That's true. That's true. Does that mean there's a lot of sports betting?

[B]

A lot of sports betting.

[A]

Is it legal? I don't even know the rules.

[B]

It's been legal in Vegas forever.

[A]

Okay, so you can bet on things here. You just can't be an athlete to vet.

[B]

Right. Well, you can, but you'll get in trouble.

[A]

Right, right, right. But like when I worked in Vegas, it was interesting. First of all, everything was cash back then. So what I would pocket would go under my bed because they gave us a rule. They're like, do not go to the bank with more than $9,900 or whatever because you'll get flagged. So I was, you know, putting cash under my bed. I was buying Range Rovers and Porsches and homes. And you saw like the strippers were driving the Hummers. They were big back then and they had the big five bedroom homes. And right as I was leaving, people started to get in a lot of trouble.

[B]

The nightclub at that one hotel across the street from Venetian.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Has the big mall in it.

[A]

Yes, yes, that one. And I remember Stevie D. Was the first one to.

[B]

I was gonna say the name.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think it was to jail. I'm not even sure. And then it all turned. Then they started to tax everybody. But it is funny to come back here and see people that were working in the industry. And let's see, I worked here. I left in 2009. So, you know, we're talking like almost 20 years ago and people are still doing it. I mean, the money cannot be as good as what it was then, but I'm sure it's decent.

[B]

From what I understand, it's very decent. Is it what it was? No, it's never going to be that anymore.

[A]

Yeah, but do you think people are spending what they spent like my clients were spending $400,000 a night?

[B]

Not consistently like they were. I mean, it was, I want to say a nightly basis back then, but it wasn't uncommon.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It happens now, but it's not to that extent.

[A]

It's not to that extent. So you are an entertainment reporter by trade. Right. And do you mostly cover Las Vegas?

[B]

I do, yeah. I mostly cover Las Vegas. I started in Las Vegas. I moved here in 2005.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Oh, there you go. I was doing public relations for a bunch of nightclubs and strips. Pure nightclub being one of them, actually. And then in 2006, I got a phone call from People magazine saying, why don't you work for us? Because we stopped sending reporters to your events because you're just giving us better stuff, like more material than our reporters can get. So just cover the whole city for us.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

They created a job for me, and I did that job on staff for eight years. I left in 2014, and I stayed on as a freelancer, but now I freelance for everybody, so.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I started working for rolling stone in 2014 as well as a freelancer, so.

[A]

And what kind of stories were you covering?

[B]

You name it. I mean, everything from. It was just so everyone in kind of those sort of magazines have a beat. You know, I'm entertainment or I'm music or I'm movies or whatever. I had a city, so I was sort of like the jack of all trades, you know, an expert of none, obviously.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But, you know, so I was covering everything from nightclub red carpets to O.J. simpson's robbery.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And everything in between.

[A]

Right. And could you decide what. What the topic was? Or would they say, okay, this party's happening this night. You have to go like.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was more of that. It was more of, like, you know, we knew, you know, back in those days, you had a lot of guest hosts. You know, like, so and so is hosting the party. Kim Kardashian's hosting the party.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you knew that she was gonna be there. You knew there's probably a red carpet involved.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'd go to that, do an interview on the red carpet, go into the club, hang out, go home. And sometimes there were three or four in a night. So you just bounce from club to club to Club and red carpet. Red carpet.

[A]

Amazing. Okay, that sounds like a great job.

[B]

Draining. Draining.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you were doing the same thing that I was doing, but I was stuck in one place, essentially. So, I mean, I loved being in Vegas. I loved living here.

[B]

It was fun. But it's. It's a young man's game, for sure. I can't do that anymore.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Nor do I want to.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So, all right, let's talk about. You've now written a book about something that you went through, but you kind of are. The book is the lens of other people that have gone through it. So I want to talk about that night. What were you doing on October 1, 2017, that led you to go to this event?

[B]

Yes, well, on October 1, 2017, I was working for Rolling Stone. I was covering the Route 91 Harvest Festival. And on the final day, the third day of the three day festival, the final act, also, Jason Aldean, country singer, was on stage. Now, I was there initially supposed to write about the 10 best things I saw this weekend at the Route 91 Harvest Festival. So nine of those items were already done and ready to go.

[A]

Had you been to the other two days?

[B]

Yeah, I'd been to all of them, and I'd done countless interviews with all the stars and things like that.

[A]

Okay. And so far, it was going great.

[B]

It was going great. It was one of the better festivals.

[A]

What were some of the 10 top things that you would do?

[B]

It's funny because I've tried to find this article I wrote, and I can't find it anywhere. I must have deleted it.

[A]

Oh, wow. So the article never went.

[B]

No, it never saw the light of day. Right, right, right. Yeah, it never saw the light because things change drastically on the final act.

[A]

Okay, so during the final act, are you there, like, as a person that's enjoying the, you know, what's happening around you? Are you, like, listening to the concert or are you, like, taking notes about what you're gonna write?

[B]

The answer is yes to all of the above. I became a country music fan over time. I wasn't, you know, 20 years ago or so, but I became one. And so I was enjoying the concert. I was also jotting down notes. I was kind of mentally documenting things and ready to write that final blurb for the story to go and run a Rolling Stone the next morning. And then, you know, I'm standing there, and it was in the beginning of the fourth song of the set, and you hear just three quick pops. Pop, pop, pop.

[A]

What did you think?

[B]

I thought it was fireworks. And there was a pause because it was very quick. Pop, pop, pop. And I looked around. I thought that was kind of strange. What jerk brings fireworks to a concert?

[A]

Right, of course. And did Jason Aldean keep singing through it?

[B]

He kept singing through it. And there was a woman who wasn't far from me. She was pro. 20ft from me. She started shrieking, and I saw blood coming out of her leg again. I still thought maybe a bottle rocket hit her or something like that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then there were three more pops. And again a pause. And I still didn't think anything of it. I still thought fireworks. And then the barrage starts happening. The barrage of bullets. Just boom, boom, boom, boom. And pretty quickly within. I mean, it seems like it was eternity. It was probably about six seconds, seven seconds, when you realize what was going on.

[A]

And everyone realized.

[B]

And everyone realized. Yeah. And so everyone's retreating, myself included, certainly. And I thought. And many people I've spoken to thought that the shooter was on the ground inside the festival. At no point do we think up in Mandalay Bay, which of course only fuels the conspiracy theories. But we, you know, I ran for duck for cover, ran into where I certainly could find some protection and tried to wait it out. And my friend was a sponsor of the concert, so we had. It was kind of a. They called it a VIP area. It was really a refurbished trucking container, essentially, with windows.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So the windows are being shot out, and you can feel the glass falling on your back while you're on the ground. And then there was a back door also. And at times during this 11 minute shooting, there were a couple breaks, a couple pauses. Okay. And at that point, someone said, I don't know how many people were in this little area. I was. But somebody said, it's getting closer. We have to go.

[A]

Oh, so people thought that somebody was on the ground still with the gun coming closer to you?

[B]

Correct. So we exited out, and I was going to exit out, but I realized my laptop was there and it was very important to me. So I army crawled over to the corner, grabbed my laptop, and then left.

[A]

Wow. So, all right, I want to kind of set the scene for people that don't know much about this. It's dark, it's late, and from what I'm imagining, I mean, there's a lot of people. Are there seats? Is it standing room only? Like, tell us what it actually looked like.

[B]

Yeah. So the stage is on the south side. So if you know the Vegas strip. So think about the Vegas Strip and Mandalay Bay is on the west side of the strip. And then there's the road, Las Vegas Ballooard. And the concert venue is right across from that. And it usually serves as a parking lot.

[A]

It's a field of sorts.

[B]

Yeah, it's a blacktop.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And so the south end is where the concert is. And there is just a ton of. Just open space.

[A]

Standing room.

[B]

Standing room only. Exactly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then there was a VIP area on the west side, which was only really kind of protected by a thin sheet of vinyl.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And there were some bleachers on in the back. So if you. And there wasn't, you know, everything was all ga. Standing room only. But if you wanted to take a break, you'd go sit in the bleachers.

[A]

Got it. And about how many people do you think were there?

[B]

22,000.

[A]

Okay. And are there bars set up? Okay, so it's 22,000.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Standing.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

No one's bringing chairs and sitting down.

[B]

And you can bring chairs. You could. Yeah, but most people don't. Most people just stand and kind of wander about all day long.

[A]

Okay, and then when this happened, were you in the front, the middle, the back?

[B]

So I was standing on the east side, about the middle or so.

[A]

Okay. And did it feel like this was very crowded? Like if I was standing with 22,000 people in standing room only, I would think that that felt very scary in general. Because of the stampede issue that happened?

[B]

I think the answer depends on where you were standing. Where I was, I was so far on the east side that I was told I didn't worry about that. But there were people who were certainly worried about that were kind of getting trampled. To my knowledge, nobody died from trampling. They was all shooting.

[A]

But I mean, think about it. In concerts anyways, there's. There's that kind of issue with stampeding or trampling. And there's no gunfire at all. It's just cause people want to get closer to the stage or whatever it is. So. All right, so a lot of the photos that you see when you look at what happened that night, obviously people weren't sitting there and taking a lot of pictures. So there's not like a ton of stuff, but it looks quite empty. And then you see some people like running. Just a few. So that's why I really was curious about how many people were there. Cause it didn't seem like all that many. So you finally run. You're running and everyone is running in different directions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where does everyone go?

[B]

Anywhere they could. A bunch of People I know got out of the venue and they went left. Some people went right. I went straight towards the airport, which, if you know anything about Vegas, it's not that far from where Mandalay Bay is. Also, what I did not know was that he was also shooting the jet fuel tanks right by the airport. So I have no way of knowing this, but there very well may have been bullets going over my head towards the. You know, towards the tanks. When I was on my way over there, Sure. I did not go to the airport. Some people actually went on the Runway. I did not.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So you eventually get home.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I think. You go to a bar first?

[B]

I went to a bar first, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, how were you feeling? Were you like, holy shit. And laughing about it, like, I just made it out of there, or were you really fucked up?

[B]

Stunned. Stunned. I didn't. I didn't really know what happened, in fact, because, you know, at this point, I still hadn't seen anything, you know, as far as from a news report. I was, you know, walking home, essentially, is what I. That's what I was planning on doing.

[A]

I mean, were you trying to check the TV and be like, does anyone know what's happening?

[B]

Yeah. It wasn't until I got to the bar, though, and I met a friend there because we had to get. I Ubered down there, so I had no way of getting home. I saw a TV report and it said two dead. And I thought, I know I saw more than two people myself.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I finally got home watching all the tv, the news reports and things like that, and then you're starting to watch the number tick up and tick up and tick up and tick up.

[A]

Now, I don't mean to bring back bad memories, but you said you saw more than two people dead as you were running. Were you running over people? Can you explain what you saw?

[B]

A little bit, yeah. So a lot of it was in the field. So we say the field. There was fake grass out there.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so what you saw, we just saw a lot of people just sprawled out, clearly not moving. Now, were some playing dead? Maybe. Yeah, maybe.

[A]

But was there people standing over people crying? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

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[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know, I ran by one guy and I don't know, I assume he had passed, but he was on the ground, face up with a red bandana over his face. And so I assume he wasn't moving, so I assume that man was passed.

[A]

I'm sorry for what you went through that night. So you finally get home.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know that you did sit down at some point and write something that later on was published in Rolling Stone. Can you talk about kind of what you were feeling that I know you said you kind of didn't re edit it. You just closed your computer and sent it off.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly what I did. I got home and I didn't know what I was supposed to do. I knew I could probably do nothing, but that kind of wasn't my character. So I just opened my laptop and I started writing about my personal experience. I wasn't claiming it was anyone else's, just mine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I wrote it. I had a friend there who came to my house just to check on us, and he was not with us at the festival. There was one other guy who escaped also separate than me, but he. I gave it to the guy who was not there. And I said, read this. He kept saying, wow, it's so raw. And I said, but is it good? Because. Yeah, it's just really raw. And I said, great. I hit send. Close the laptop. Never read it again. I still haven't read it.

[A]

Wow. And what did your editor say? Was he like, we're gonna run this? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, they were all, you know, east coast. So at that point, they were all still asleep. This happened at 10 o' clock in Vegas.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

I sent my story in probably around 1 o' clock in the morning. Yeah. Vegas time. So you're talking four o', clock, New York.

[A]

And how many days later did it run?

[B]

It ran that day.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It ran on October 2nd. Yes. What they did was they ran a generic news story. I don't say generic, but they ran a news story about kind of what happened. And then. Oh, by the way, we have this incredibly raw story from our guy who was there on the ground.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hi, my name is Lloyd Lockridge and I'm the host of a new podcast from Odyssey called Family Lore. In this podcast, I'm going to have people on to tell unusual and sometimes far fetched stories about their families.

[A]

I've heard my whole life that she invented the margarita.

[B]

And then we're going to investigate those stories and find out how much of it is true. He gets a patent one month before the Wright Brothers.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Please follow and listen to Family Lore An Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows.

[A]

Quick break here folks, because I have to tell you, this conversation doesn't end when the episode does. Some of my favorite moments never make the public podcast. They happen after we stop recording behind the scenes or in conversations that are just a little too personal for the regular show. That's exactly what you'll find on Patreon. Depending on your membership, you'll get exclusive bonus episodes, my weekly Palm Beach Life series, behind the scenes content, monthly mystery box giveaways, and even the opportunity to book a one on one video call with me about whatever is on your mind. If you've ever wished you could be part of the conversation instead of just listening to it, this is your chance. Join [e-mail] Misunderstood with Rachel. You could tell so I want to talk about what that fallout is like for you having gone through something like that. You know, some people experience feeling remorse that, you know, they don't understand why they lived and other people didn't. Some people get fearful like of firecrackers and sounds. Some people don't feel anything. What did you feel?

[B]

I still have a hard time with the sound of fireworks. I can see them no problem. But it's a sound because it sounds so similar to that night. I don't really have survivor's guilt. I know some people do. That's not me. But really the lasting impact for me is fireworks. And it's gonna sound really strange, but I have a hard time when I see people running in street clothes. Like if you're in workout clothes, no problem because I think, oh, you're out just for a jog. But if I see people in street clothes running, I freak out a little bit cause I think what are you running from?

[A]

Right, I understand that. So it's interesting. I was not in some sort of tragedy or crisis like that, but because of knowing what it was like during 911 and losing my fiance and remembering that feeling of I also worked at Bloomberg News and saw how people were starting to panic because they thought that different parts of New York City were being target targeted and they told us to leave and we had to go down 14 flights of stairs or whatever it was. And I remember later, years later, being at a movie theater and on the fifth floor and a fire alarm went off. And they said that it was a bomb scare and people had to use the escalators and the staircase. And the staircase was locked. And people were like, it's not a big deal. And inside I was like, panicking because I was like, what do you mean it's not a fucking big deal? You don't know it's a big deal until you're dead.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

And people. The person I was with was like, calm down. And I am not somebody who panics about anything. I have, like, no nervous energy. And it really was. I mean, I get it. It's a terrible thing. And it's lasted with me. There are things that will trigger me and set me off that I know what it's from. I don't even need to discuss it with somebody. But I have to, like, shake it off. Cause I know it's not real, but I know that it's, you know, post traumatic stress disorder.

[B]

It's a part of you now.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So you did something interesting with this. You decided to meet a woman and from her story realized that telling other people's stories was worth putting in a book. Which is fascinating. The connection that people have during a tragedy when they're in grief. It's only like when you go through something like that, you have to be able to talk to those same people because other people do not understand.

[B]

You said it.

[A]

Yeah. So tell me what that was like for you.

[B]

Yeah. So I met Mary Jo Vontillo at a baseball game, actually.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

I was there working for Rolling Stone to cover the five year anniversary of the shooting. And a bunch of the survivors go to this one particular game every year. And the woman who was in charge put me around a bunch of people who had lost someone or got shot themselves. And Mary Jo was sitting in front of me and she had no interest in speaking to me for nine innings of the game, but nine innings a long time. So I broke her down for a while. So finally she agreed to speak to me for the magazine article, which ended up running and 2022, if my math is correct, a year later, she called me and she said, I have this idea for a book, and are you interested in writing it with me? And so it's really about her journey now. Mary Jo lost her husband. I should probably preface that she lost her husband during Route 91. He was probably the first one fatally shot. We don't know for sure, but we Know, he was among the first.

[A]

I saw that. You wrote that? Why do you guys think that?

[B]

Cause Jason Aldean was still on stage singing when Kurt was on the ground.

[A]

Already got it.

[B]

Still singing. Had not left the stage or anything, so. And knowing how quickly you heard the bullets to when Jason ran, you know, it was probably 20 seconds.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay.

[B]

So Kurt was already down.

[A]

And was he dead?

[B]

Dead, yeah. Out cold.

[A]

So she never was able to talk to him or figure it out.

[B]

She turned to look at him and said, are those fireworks? And when she turned around, he wasn't there. He was on the ground.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So that's how quickly it happened.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so she ended up reaching out to me saying, do you want to write this book? And it was about her journey through. To heal from this moment, from this day. And what she did was she went to therapy and all that kind of thing. But she also sought out people who dealt with other traumas and not just necessarily Route 91, but other. Whether it's sexual assault. You know, 9, 11. You know, there's a man whose sister was killed by a serial killer. And it's all. And kind of all these people who took this one moment in time and made. Turned trauma into a transition point.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And that's what she decided. How did these people made this moment, this tragic, terrible moment, a silver lining their life. And that's what she tried to do.

[A]

Amazing. So what did she find or what did any of them find was the silver lining?

[B]

I mean, what she found, this. Her silver lining was she said, you know, meeting these people who I never would have met otherwise, you know, and that's what the book people think. It's a Route 91 book, and it's really not. I always say the book starts on October 1st. It starts at Route 91. But it's kind of about everything that's happened because of that day, not on that day.

[A]

Can you share some of the stories that stood out to you?

[B]

Sure, yeah. So the first one I think about is a guy named Tommy Maher. Now, Tommy is from New York. He still lives there to this day. He's a fire commissioner out there. Tommy's best friend, childhood best friend, died in 9 11. His name was Joe Hunter. And for years, Tommy tried to honor Joe, and he couldn't figure out a way how. And Vegas rolled around, and Tommy had no connection to Vegas. But he decided one day at an epiphany, I'm gonna drive my van to the hometowns of everybody who was fatally shot in Las Vegas and do a random act of kindness in their name on my own dime. Now Tommy decided I'm not going to.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, it's wild. Tommy decided he's not going to contact the families because he's not in it for the glory. He's just going to go do it and move on to the next city. As time went on, he started kind of delving deeper into these people's lives. And if someone was a big basketball fan or something, he might go to a public basketball court and leave basketballs out there with a note saying, courtesy of so and so victim of Route 91. Or if they were a coffee lover, he might go to Starbucks and buy the next 20 people coffee.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Give them all a note letting him know why. Courtesy of this person. And as time went on, he would do other tragedies, too. So he met Mary Jo because he was, of course, in her hometown doing stuff for Kurt. Okay, what did he do for Kurt? I can't remember what he did for Kurt, actually. I mean, Kurt was a truck driver, so there's probably something related to trucking. But Mary Jo found out from her cousin. She said, hey, there's this guy going around using Kurt's name. She, of course, thought he was a grifter of some sort. And she reached out to him, and he said, no, I'm just doing this. And told her why. She didn't really believe it. She eventually met him in New York, and within 10 seconds, she knew this guy was legit. Wow. And so Tommy has. Tommy's really remarkable in his. What he's done with his day. Again, he had no connection to Vegas or Bruno Delhi.

[A]

He still do this?

[B]

Still does it.

[A]

Wow. Does he have a job?

[B]

He's a fire commissioner.

[A]

Oh, still. Okay.

[B]

And he's a retired sanitation worker. So on 9 11, he was just finishing up his day because he, you know, they work in the morning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was his anniversary also, he was going to the store to get a card for his wife. An anniversary card. Oh, my goodness. And then he heard the planes. So, yeah, that was Tommy. There's another guy named Jeff Deon now. Jeff Dion's sister. Jeff Dion was a teenager when his sister was killed by a serial killer. The same one that actually killed Adam Walsh, John Walsh's son. Wow.

[A]

No way.

[B]

And so when he kept trying to figure out everything he could for his sister, and the cops at that point in the early 80s, were not willing to impart any sort of wisdom on him, and so he decided to make his life. He became A victim's rights lawyer. All because of this one moment. He said, I wasn't stabbed like my sister was, but I'm a victim too. Just kind of like, I was kind of like you were. You know, we're all kind of victims of these, of these events. And so he decided to, you know, turn his life into this. And now. And he kind of connected with Mary Jo because he might be the most trauma informed man in the country. He, when these things happen, GoFundMes get set up through the governments, typically, but the governments aren't set up to know how to distribute this money. Sure, they hire him to do it. And so it's kind of a turnkey operation at this point. So he met Mary jo because Route 91, obviously there was a GoFundMe for that. And then finally, I'll give you one more story. A guy named Deon Green. Deion Green was. He was a drug dealer. He admits it. He was in prison for several years. And he turned his life around, reformed his life, and he got out of prison and he was hanging at home one day in Dayton, Ohio, and a tornado came through and just ravaged his house. Almost took it off the map. So he tried to salvage his home. He was having a hard time doing it, but still trying. One day he decided, you know, I need a break. And so he went up to the river, he called his dad and said, dad, let's go have some drinks tonight. Took his dad out to this one area of Dayton, Ohio. Guy comes around the corner with an automatic rifle, starts shooting. And Deion's dad died in Deon's arms. So within about two months, he lost his home and his dad.

[A]

What's this guy doing now?

[B]

So now he decided to start

[A]

a

[B]

foundation for at risk youths.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's what he does now. And he ran for political office.

[A]

It's interesting that all these people have taken the opportunity as a survivor or a victim, however you choose to say it, to do something with it. Some people don't. And that's okay too, because they just maybe haven't gotten there yet. But at the same time, I do, I hear what you're saying. Like, I feel like there's people that affects them in ways that they have to deal with it in their own way. And some people make a whole life out of it. They change their entire life. And it is interesting that you say victim, but I think a lot of people would say survivor too, because they, you know, have survived such a terrible thing and the loss of that person or whatever happened that was so tragic. It just. It stays within your bones.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I know that very well.

[B]

That's what we talk about a lot in this book about. Kind of we don't want to move on, but we want to move forward. And there's a difference between the two.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, I always say, like, you know, trauma to me is I'm always going to live with it, but I don't have to stare it in the face. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to wear it like a backpack. So it's behind me, it's attached to me, but I'm always looking forward.

[A]

And how important. How important do you think was telling those stories that you got to tell, but also hearing them tell them to each other?

[B]

I mean, it was incredible. I mean, these people are remarkable. What they've been through. I mean, Mary Jo in particular, if my spouse, if my wife died in front of me in that manner, I don't know that I could get up out of bed the next day. And she continued to. But hearing these stories and hearing the resiliency of these people is really, it became so inspiring to me. And then some of these stories overlap and some don't. But I would talk to someone over here and say, oh, you should find out about this person. And it was just the overlap and the connect, really. It's called the connections. But it's the human connection that is just so strong and so bonds are so tight and something we need in these times of grief.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting because Route 91 is something that a lot of people have, I don't want to say, forgotten about. Oh, they have, but you don't hear it spoken about enough. I don't even remember the guy's name. Maybe that's subconscious, cuz I don't want to. I know you don't say his name correct, but you know, I don't know. Did they ever really find out what happened? Was there a motive that they clearly ever said was the reason for all this?

[B]

They did not. So I delved deep into all the. Every file I could read, every, you know, and all these are public record now. You know, FBI files and Las Vegas police and sheriffs and all that. I've read every single, single report there is. But the one thing, and the answer to your question is no, they never found a motive. But the one thing I decided very early on with this book was two things. I wasn't going to name him in the book, and that was non negotiable. And I also wasn't going to relitigate this case because this book was. It's not about this guy. It's about the victims. And I think in a lot of mass tragedies, you forget about the victims. You focus on the number a lot. Oh, 58. 58, exactly. And forget, like, that those are 58 people. Those are 58 families. And so this was a book truly about the victims and the survivors.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. Do you think, though, that it affects them, that there are conspiracies about it or that it's not talked about enough? Do you think that that's hard for them because they feel forgotten?

[B]

I can only speak to Route 91, not some of these others. But the answer is no. Really? Not many of them that I know deal with conspiracies. You know, Mary Jo, actually, she said something one time to me is that she said, you know, I don't. You know, I don't deal with conspiracies because, like, it doesn't change my reality. My husband's still gone, no matter what. And then when I was doing my research and I realized how many bullets were fired during the course because of the bullet casings they found in the hotel room, it was 10:58.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And she said to me, honestly, like, I only care about the one. The one that hit Kurt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's really kind of all about perspective. And when she said it, it wasn't about, like, I don't care about the other victims, but that's. The one that hurt her the most was that one.

[A]

Of course. But that's really powerful. That just gave me chills. But that also goes to show you there were a thousand lives that were saved that weren't hit with bullets.

[B]

Also shows you what a bad shot the guy was, too.

[A]

Yeah, right. Did you ever speak to Jason Aldean about what happened?

[B]

I have, briefly, you know, at kind of award shows and things, like, on red carpet. So you're not really diving deep into it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I have spoken briefly.

[A]

Were you able to say, listen, I was there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And do you feel like he even wants to connect with you on that level, or it's something that he. He didn't want to talk about?

[B]

I think it's a little bit of both. I think in the. You know, in the year or two after, I think he couldn't really get away from it. I'm not saying. I'm not saying he didn't want. He wanted to either, but he really couldn't. So he was more Outgoing about it, but in the years kind of gone on, it's not been eight years past. He doesn't want that to. I shouldn't say, I shouldn't speak for him, but it doesn't seem as though he wants that to define him.

[A]

Right. He doesn't want to be connected to a career as much.

[B]

He Typically on October 1st, almost always he puts out an Instagram or social media saying, always thinking about you guys, et cetera, et cetera.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

When he's in Vegas playing concerts, he always gives a shout out to the Route 91 family. Okay, so it's not. He hasn't forgotten it. I just don't think he wants it to be something just so pronounced in his life.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Now that was the last year that they did that festival.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Have they replaced it with something else?

[B]

Not really.

[A]

And does Vegas do something in memorandum for it?

[B]

So Vegas, what happened and that was really cool in the just days after was they created the Healing Garden, which is in old downtown Vegas. And you lived here, you know, downtown Vegas and the city and Mandalay are not remotely close to each other. But that was a very organic thing that happened where these community organizers got together and said, let's build a place where people can come mourn. Now, nobody's buried there, but all 58 victims have their own space. The families get to design their space, do whatever they want with it, really. And the land was donated, so that's really cool. And that's a year round thing. Go there.

[A]

Do people go and look at it?

[B]

Yeah, people go there all the time. Yeah.

[A]

And what happened to the actual space where the event was?

[B]

And the actual space is now a parking lot for Raiders games.

[A]

Stop. Oh, my God. That seems a little inappropriate.

[B]

It's a valuable piece of land on the Las Vegas strip. I get it. I don't like it, but I get it. However, the tribe that owns it now, they have promised to donate 2 acres of the south end for a permanent memorial called the Forever. Let's see if I get this right. The Forever. Oh, God. Forever 91 memorial, I believe is what it's called. But they're looking to raise money and raise funds for that. And if that happens, I'll do a permanent memorial out there.

[A]

Okay, got it. And where's Mary Jo these days? Did she get remarried? What's she doing?

[B]

So Mary Jo, she lived in a place at the time called Cameron park, which is outside of Sacramento. She eventually moved to Orange County, California, lived there for a little bit, and she just recently Moved to Florida. She met a wonderful man named Dennis. And so her and Dennis are living happily ever after. She's not remarried.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But she.

[A]

But she's in her second act.

[B]

She's in her second act? Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so she didn't just stay in bed and do nothing.

[B]

She did not.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

And her family supports her. Her family loves Dennis. I love Dennis.

[A]

Right. Oh, that's great. So you stay in touch?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Mary Jo and I talk almost daily still.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

That is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. In fact, we just did a book signing at her hometown in Cameron park last week.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, all right. How has it been now that the book is out? Do you feel good talking about it? Like, are you so happy you've written all this down? How long did it take you? What was the process?

[B]

Yeah, so the whole process, start to finish, which includes pitching it to publishing companies, which is a very humbling experience, by the way. That started to finish was two years from the day I started writing to the day it got published. About a year that was writing. Another year was pitching and going through the publishing process.

[A]

Explain that a little bit actually, because that is interesting. What was it like? How did you do the pitching process?

[B]

Yeah, it's like cold calling, really. There's different sites out there where you can find agents and publishers and ignorant go through that and basically you're just kind of pitching. Everyone wants something called a query letter, which is a 350 word summary of the entire book.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is 240 pages.

[A]

Right. So it's like your elevator pitch, so to speak.

[B]

Very much. Yeah, everybody wants that. But then everyone wants it different though too. Some people want a bio of the writer, some people want the first three chapters. Some people want a double space, some want single spaced. Some people want a pitch. It's a nightmare.

[A]

So it's a lot of work.

[B]

It's a nightmare. If I could get seven or eight done in a day, that was a full day. And I pitched this book 225 times.

[A]

Wow. And how many no's did you get?

[B]

224. It sounds like.

[A]

Oh my goodness. Wow. All right, well, who's your publisher? Who went with it?

[B]

Wild Blue Press out of Denver, Colorado gave us a shot.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That must have been amazing.

[B]

Yeah, it was pretty cool.

[A]

Wait, explain that. Did they call you or they gave you a letter? How did you actually find out it was happening?

[B]

Picture them like I did everyone else and they send an email. Theirs came. I want to say it was about Two or three weeks after I pitched it, which that's lightning quick for most of these people.

[A]

Yeah. And seeing that email, what did you do?

[B]

And they, you know, it's funny, I was in New York when it happened. When it came through, I was actually waiting for a table at dinner, and I ate dinner early, but. And came through and said, you know, we'd love to, you know, represent you on this. We'd love to publish your book. You know, here's the contracts, all kinds of things. So, I mean, I just started crying, and my wife was there thinking, something's wrong. And, you know, something was right for the first time.

[A]

All that hard work panned out. So then how has the reaction been since you've had it out?

[B]

It's been really incredible. You know, it's one of those things you're not sure. Are people going to like it? Does anyone care? And when it came out, it debuted at number one on Amazon, and it's a category, so that was really exciting. Obviously.

[A]

That's so great.

[B]

And it's just continued to kind of just slowly move forward, move up.

[A]

And I'm sure the people that you've talked about in it are just so happy that they have a little bit in there that their story gets to live on and the people that they want to talk about gets to live on. Because for me, every September 11th, when I'm talking about Andy, it's important for me to tell my story. Not because of me, but because then it just. I feel like I'm doing it in his honor. So people get to know his name, and they will always remember his name. Cause I bring it up every year on purpose. Not so people get to hear me talk about it, but so people just remember his name.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think that's great that all

[B]

these people get to know. Mary Jo said, I just, you know, why did she want to embark on this adventure with me? She said, I just don't want people to forget Kurt. Yeah, I want to remember Kurt. And the same can be said for all these other people, I think, too. It's like, you know, Dion Green doesn't want his father forgotten. You know, Jeff Dion doesn't want his sister forgotten, and Tommy Marr doesn't want his best friend forgotten. And so all these people are doing these things that are really remarkable, kind of selflessly.

[A]

So you still live here in Vegas?

[B]

I do.

[A]

And what's next? What are you working on? What are you doing?

[B]

I'm trying to figure out my next book, my next project.

[A]

Do you want to write again, I think.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have a couple things potentially in the pipeline.

[A]

Will you do something similar? Will you do something fictional? What do you.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, do I want to be the trauma guy?

[A]

I don't know. But if it works well for you, it works.

[B]

I'm the guy they can talk to, obviously.

[A]

Yeah. Well, will you do something in entertainment because you know so many of those stories or.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I've looked at fiction. That was probably my path and then. But now there's a couple things in the pipeline that might be non fiction. Similar to like memoir type of things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Biographies, maybe. Ghost writing.

[A]

Got it. Oh, that's a good one too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that does.

[B]

Ghostwriting is a big industry.

[A]

Yeah. How do you think that industry is going to do now that I has all these book writing things?

[B]

So. Have you ever read an AI book?

[A]

No, I don't think so.

[B]

I probably haven't. They're not very good.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, actually, you know what, I will tell you, somebody that I know is doing this thing with, I think it's Amazon, where they essentially write a book for you and then publish it. You don't even have to use your name. And it's pretty much all AI. I don't really have a lot of details you can tell because I don't know what I'm talking about. But I know it's happened because I've seen the book.

[B]

Oh, I've seen it. Yeah, I saw.

[A]

You know, you could tell that it's AI is your point.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. You can always tell that it's AI. In fact, I've gotten calls. I work for a lot of clients in Vegas, hospitality companies and things like that. And all of them do the same thing. They'll tell me I'm too expensive to work for them. They will then go to AI Then they'll call me back and say AI sucks.

[A]

Yeah. But you know, it's funny, I had a guest on the other day and George and I were going to, you know, about to do the show and it was a book on. She had just published a book on ChatGPT and we were really excited to learn all about it and what's the important things to know about it and all this stuff she gets on. She was a real estate agent and didn't know anything about ChatGPT and clearly ChatGPT had written the book and she couldn't talk about it as an expert, so we had to cancel the interview. It was incredible. That's never happened like, in all the, you know, 300 interviews I've done. So as time goes on, I mean, I feel like that's gonna be a bigger.

[B]

Oh, it's gonna be a bigger thing. It's gonna get better. You know, AIs in such its infancy still.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't that crazy? Cause it feels so big now.

[B]

I know. And that's why I gotta strike while the iron's hot.

[A]

Totally. Yeah. But I think that's cool to pick someone that, you know, you're enamored with and do their, you know, do their biography or ghostwrite for them. There are so many people that want their story told. I mean, now more than ever, everyone realizes that having somebody else tell your story or when you're not in control of your own narrative, it's really stifling. So to be able to have the chance to write a book and have somebody tell it for you because you don't feel like you're a good enough writer that you have the stories is really important.

[B]

But you still have the final say because your name's on the book, Right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And there's so many different kinds of books, too. Like, you know, this one, we wanted a publisher and we got one, but there's self publishing. There's, you know, there's also the idea of, like, I want to write a book just for my family.

[A]

Yes. Right.

[B]

You know, like, I want to. I want 10 copies.

[A]

Totally. And also, I think it's pretty cool that if you just want to do it as a hobby and, like, get your whole story out so you have it there so your kids can read it later, I think that's kind of cool.

[B]

And I recently. I mean, I'll just tell you right now, I recently started a business, and I'm very, very early, but I started a wedding book business where I go to weddings, and I'm just a hired vendor. I go to your weddings and I write an entire book about your wedding day.

[A]

That is so cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a book book.

[B]

Yeah, Like a story. Yeah. So basically it's your fairy tale. That's what I read. So I went to. And I got this idea. I was going to my wife's mark.

[A]

That is such a good idea.

[B]

I know. So I was going to my wife's cousin's wedding, and I had this idea about, like, you know, these niche industries, and I thought, should I, you know, can I do. Can I do this? I didn't tell them I was doing it either and ended up coming out with 44 pages without them knowing that is so cool.

[A]

All right, well, we're gonna promote that for sure for you on the podcast.

[B]

It's called I do publications.

[A]

Love it. Okay. All right, well, what's on your bucket list? What do you hope to do later in life? Are you gonna move? Do you wanna stay here? Like what?

[B]

You know, that's a good question. I don't really know. I love Vegas, certainly. And it would take a pretty cool opportunity for me to leave, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My wife is in a attorney in San Diego and so I think that's always something that's potentially there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yes, that's something. We talk about that all the time. We go to Napa a lot also. We're. I'm a wine guy.

[A]

Yeah, I used to live in Calistoga.

[B]

Oh, there you go.

[A]

Yeah, I love that up there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But obviously you're doing good things and this is going very well for you. So I wish you the best of luck with it. People that are listening, it's called the Las Vegas Massacre Connections by Mark Gray. We'll put the link in our show notes, tell people where they can find it and where they can find you.

[B]

Yeah, it's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Wherever books are sold, those are probably the two biggest ones and the best ones. You can find me on Instagram. I am themarkgray on Instagram. The website for the book is the las vegasmassacreconnections.com Instagram for the book is Las Vegas Massacre Connections as well on Instagram. We're around.

[A]

Awesome. And people can reach you on DM or. Sure, I'm around. Awesome.

[B]

I'm easy to get ahold of.

[A]

It was so good to see you again.

[B]

Good to see you too.

[A]

And I'm sure we'll run into each other with all of our mutual friends here.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

It's been a pleasure.

[B]

Thanks, Rachel.

[A]

Thanks. Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe. Subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email [e-mail] that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next.

[B]

The Second World War is the largest event in human history. A 20 part series with Tom Hanks. No part of the globe was untouched. No life unchanged experience. The ultimate account of World War II. Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are. Listen to World War II with Tom Hanks on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.