I Was In Prison With Mackenzie Shirilla: The Real Story Behind Netflix's The Crash | Miss Understood #378

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

Episode: I Was In Prison With Mackenzie Shirilla: The Real Story Behind Netflix's The Crash | #378
Date: June 2, 2026
Guest: Kat Crowder

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Main Theme Overview

This episode dives deep into the human stories behind notorious headlines, focusing on both the infamous case of Mackenzie Shirilla—now the subject of Netflix’s “The Crash”—and guest Kat Crowder’s own journey through incarceration and redemption. Host Rachel Uchitel and Kat candidly discuss shame, public judgment, and whether society truly believes in giving second chances, expanding the conversation far beyond a single celebrated crime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: The Crash and Mackenzie Shirilla

• Rachel summarizes the Shirilla case: a 17-year-old drove into a building at 100 mph, killing her boyfriend and a friend; convicted of murder, but the incident still sparks debate (00:30).
• Kat Crowder is introduced as someone who was incarcerated with Shirilla and has since spoken publicly about her experiences (01:21).

2. Kat’s Story: From a Troubled Past to Incarceration

• Childhood context: Kat describes a “don’t look under the basement or behind the picket fence” upbringing, marked by her father’s alcoholism and emotional neglect (04:27).
  • “I kind of always carried like this hole inside of me or this void that I was always constantly trying to fill.” – Kat (04:41)
• Teen years: Spiraled into drugs, crime, and the party scene; was sent to a harsh wilderness program (06:35).
  • Shared experiences with Rachel, both survivors of “boot camp” style programs, highlighting trauma and lack of familial understanding (07:30 – 08:51).
• Father’s suicide: After her time at Elk River, returned home to news of her father’s death by suicide—a pivotal moment that fueled deeper turmoil (09:39).
• Criminal cycle: Describes cycles of petty theft, drugs, and jail, reinforced by jailhouse social networks:
  • “Once you’re in the system, it’s really hard to get out.” – Kat (13:21)
• The Car Chase: Details a reckless car chase spanning four counties, resulting in jail time (16:24–18:49).
  • “I went through four counties in two states… I’m not a NASCAR driver.” (16:58)
• Motherhood as turning point: Pregnancy became Kat’s reason to quit drugs and strive for change, despite skepticism from her family (22:24).
  • Family ultimately rallied to care for her daughter during her incarceration (24:58 – 26:44).
  • “My mom was like, I’ve got my baby. We’re gonna give her the best life until you come home.” – Kat (26:44)

3. Inside Prison: Reality vs. Stereotype

• Jail vs. Prison: Describes jail as “miserable,” with few resources, while prison (her facility in Ohio) offers vocational programs, open bunk rooms, and a surprising degree of autonomy (27:52–29:42).
• Prison’s social dynamics: Housing structures, prevalence of drugs, and the shocking role of staff in smuggling contraband (32:05 – 35:01).
  • “If you think the opioid epidemic is bad out here, it’s 10 times worse inside prison.” – Kat (31:37)
• Culture of relationships: Kat verifies the commonality of same-sex relationships and drama inside, including stories about Mackenzie’s romantic entanglements (49:57).

4. Mackenzie Shirilla: Personality and Reputation Inside

• First impressions:
  • “What is this girl doing here? She does not look like many of the other inmates. She’s very young. She has a full face of makeup on.” (35:51)
  • Prison allows for some personal items (makeup, clothing via approved vendors)—creating superficial differences among inmates (36:21 – 36:58).
• Social behavior: Mackenzie did not match her “gangster” or “tough” persona as seen in the Netflix documentary.
  • “Think Regina George.” – Kat (40:39)
  • “She was bubbly, popular girl in high school vibes… not the same as the documentary.” (40:02–40:39)
• Lack of remorse and accountability:
  • “She walked around there like she was getting out the next day.” (42:41)
  • Not participating in meaningful programs, frequent rule violations (44:05 – 44:32).
• Reputation among inmates:
  • “She’s got a popular status… but not for the right reasons.” (51:00)
  • Most inmates uninterested; “party-in-prison” crowd gravitates toward her for the resources.

5. Reactions to "The Crash" & Mackenzie's Public Image

• Kat reflects on the jarring disconnect between Mackenzie’s public TV persona and real-life behavior (45:00 – 46:26).
  • Memorable moment: When Mackenzie breaks character after an emotional interview scene—“‘Do you think I did too much? I just really don’t want to do too much.’” (Quote paraphrased, 45:00–46:26)
• Discussion of the documentary’s objectivity: presented possibilities (accident, drugs, blackout) while making the instability evident.

6. Redemption, Stigma, and Second Chances

• Barriers after release: Kat explains the uphill battle of re-entering society—job rejections, financial instability, and the label “felon” (52:22).
  • “There’s a huge stigma that comes with the word felon… I would get job offers, background check would come back and they would revoke my offer.” (52:22 – 52:56)
• Key to survival: Persistence, support systems, and self-reflection.
  • “My mom is like my best friend… My grandparents, they help me with my daughter… my best friend didn’t give up.” (54:13)

7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Mackenzie] walked around there like she was getting out the next day.” – Kat (42:41)
• “Think Regina George.” – Kat (40:39)
• “You don’t seem like someone who would go to prison. I’m going to offer you this job. The background check would come back and they would revoke my offer.” – Kat (52:22)
• “I feel like [Davion] is just kind of overlooked… he was just in the wrong car that night.” – Kat (48:13–49:06)
• “It’s possible to change your life around. But people get so defeated by so much rejection.” – Kat (53:41)
• “Keep pushing and keep trying because you’ll get that one opportunity finally.” – Kat (53:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Setting the Scene (00:30–01:21)
• Kat’s Childhood and Background (04:27–12:14)
• Cycle of Crime and Major Car Chase (16:24–18:49)
• Motherhood and Incarceration (22:24–26:44)
• What Prison Is Really Like (27:52–32:05)
• Inside Look at Shirilla in Prison (35:11–44:32)
• Reactions to Netflix Documentary (45:00–46:26)
• Stigma After Release & Road to Redemption (52:22–54:52)

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Closing Thoughts

This candid, layered episode not only demystifies the real-life dynamics inside prison—as seen with the “real” Mackenzie Shirilla—but also confronts the enduring societal stigma that follows formerly incarcerated people. Kat Crowder’s openness about her life, mistakes, and attempts at rebuilding offers a raw, hopeful perspective, while Rachel’s empathetic, probing questions keep the conversation accessible, timely, and deeply human.

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Where to Follow

• Kat Crowder: @bougiebehindbars (TikTok, YouTube, Instagram) (54:56)
• Rachel Uchitel: Patreon/misunderstoodwithrachelukatell

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Transcript

[Lloyd Lockridge]

Hi, my name is Lloyd Lockridge and I'm the host of a new podcast from Odyssey called Family Lore. In this podcast, I'm going to have people on to tell unusual and sometimes far fetched stories about their families.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I've heard my whole life that she invented the margarita.

[Lloyd Lockridge]

And then we're going to investigate those stories and find out how much of it is true.

[Kat Crowder]

He gets a patent one month before the Wright brothers. Oh, my God.

[Lloyd Lockridge]

Please follow and listen to Family Lore, an Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or. Or wherever you get your shows.

[Rachel Yukatel]

One of the most talked about documentaries on Netflix right now is called the Crash. If you haven't seen it, let me catch you up. What began as a horrific car accident became one of the most controversial murder cases in recent memory. In 2022, a 17 year old Mackenzie Schrilla drove a car into a brick building at nearly 100 miles per hour, killing her boyfriend Dominic Russo and their friend Davion Flanagan. Prosecutors called it murder. Mackenzie said she blacked out. A judge ultimately convicted her, and today she remains behind bars. The documentary has reignited a debate that's divided the Internet. Was this a calculated act of violence, a tragic accident, a crime of passion, or something far more complicated? Everybody seems to have an opinion, but today we're talking to somebody who had a front row seat to a part of this story that the cameras didn't capture.

[Kat Crowder]

When I was in there with her, she walked around there like she was getting out the next day.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Her name is Kat Crowder. Kat was incarcerated in this very same prison as Mackenzie.

[Kat Crowder]

When I first saw her, my first impression was like, what is this girl doing here? You know, she does not look like many of the other inmates. She's very young. She has a full face of makeup on.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But what makes Kat's story fascinating isn't just what she has to say about Mackenzie. It's what happened when she decided to tell her own story. Because. Because Kat did something most former inmates never do. She stepped into the light. She had publicly acknowledged her past.

[Kat Crowder]

I get in the driver's seat, and before I even pull out of the gas station, there's like 10 cops around me. I went through four counties in two states, so I went through Ohio all the way up to Detroit.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And for that honesty, she's paid a price. People have tried to shame her, judge her, even pressure employees to fire her simply because of mistakes she's already served time for. Which raises a question we don't talk about enough. If prison is supposed to. Supposed to Be a punishment. What happens after the punishment ends? Do we actually believe in rehabilitation or do we just like the idea of it? Because it's easy to talk about second chances, but it's much harder to give someone one. Today isn't just a conversation about Mackenzie Shurilla. It's a conversation about accountability, redemption, public judgment, and whether a person can truly outrun their past. Kat, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood. How are you?

[Kat Crowder]

I'm good. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I'm really happy that you're here. Everybody's been watching the crash, and now you have become pseudo famous because you have this Instagram where you kind of outed yourself that you had been in prison with Mackenzie. Sharrilla. Is it Sharrilla or Shrilla, by the way?

[Kat Crowder]

Shrilla. I think it's Sharrilla.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sharilla. Okay. So anyways, Mackenzie and I know that this has affected you in good ways, probably because here you are on a podcast, but also in bad ways, outing yourself as a felon, outing yourself as being in prison in general. That a lot of people may not have known it, but you are someone who's on a path to rebuild your life. You have a three year old daughter, you have a job. So this hasn't been easy. I know. So before we actually get into your knowledge and relationship with Mackenzie, I just wanted to hear your story for a second because I find that really fascinating. Can you tell us a little bit about your past and the fact that you've been in and out of jail a couple times and what that was for and then leading into why you were there when Mackenzie was there.

[Kat Crowder]

Right. So I feel like a lot of things always stem back to our childhood. So I'll just kind of like, brief over that I kind of come from. So I grew up in the suburbs, but with a very much like, don't look under, into the basement or behind the picket fence lifestyle. You know, my father suffered really bad with alcoholism. My mom, because of that, struggled, you know, emotionally. And so I didn't have a lot of, like, emotional guidance, I guess, or I kind of always carried like this hole inside of me or this void that I was always constantly trying to fill. And as I got older, I kind of led in. That led me into, like, trying to get approval and validation from the worst possible people and kind of creating me into that same caliber. Because I've said in one of my videos, you know, I was hanging around these not so great people, but in turn I was really a not so great person.

[Rachel Yukatel]

What does that mean, by the way? Were you doing bad things? Were you bad to people? Were you stealing? Like, what did that mean?

[Kat Crowder]

I just was hanging around people who were trying to survive the best they could in, in the streets. So, you know, smoking pot, drinking, going to parties, you know, people stealing, people that were robbing, people going along for that. Just.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And was this when you were in your teens? Like were you in school and would you skip school?

[Kat Crowder]

Like, yeah. So when I was in high school, I really started going downhill around like sophomore year. And I was just hanging on with much older people, people that had, I had no business hanging around, that really had no good intentions. I mean obviously to be hanging around with a 16, 17 year old and that slowly. You know, my family, my mom, my grandparents, they didn't know what to do. So they sent me away to a wilderness treatment program. Right. So it's like a boot camp. It's been shut down since then because it's just like child labor torture. It's awful.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Which one did you go to by the way? I was sent to one too.

[Kat Crowder]

So I went to Elk river in Elkmont, Alabama. That's so crazy. I feel like that's. It's way more common than people think for people to get sent there.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Did you get sent to like a 21 day program or you got sent to like a boarding school?

[Kat Crowder]

It was like a six month program.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

So it was like you phased up and everything was outside. No air conditioning? No. It was a lot of like physical labor, like hauling trees. You couldn't talk without raising your two fingers and being called on. And it was just really in turn like backwards and twisted because a lot of the people that worked there were really inappropriate with the people that were there. It was a lot of, you know, people, kids were sent there to, to deal with their trauma and then they were doped up on all these psych meds and sent to do all this manual labor basically to keep this farm alive right in the middle of nowhere. They kidnap you, put, put a blindfold on you, throw you in a van in the middle of the night and you idea where you're at.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Have you seen Wayward?

[Kat Crowder]

I have.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So Wayward was made essentially after my boarding school, which was called Sea Doo. I went to a school which was a two and a half year program. But part of that was that people were kidnapped in the middle of the night to either be sent there or sometimes before they went there, they would go on a 21 day wilderness program, which is the shorter version of what you're talking about. And what you went to was a mixture of the both. Because we had the tiers, you had to do manual labor the whole time. You had certain rules you had to go by. And it's interesting because most people, for the most part, didn't realize it's very cultish, you know, when you're in it and you end up following the rules, but the rules don't even make sense. It's not helping. You and your parents are at a point. You know, I don't like to blame the parents, but a lot of times the parents have no clue what goes on in these places. And what you're going through is even worse than what you were going through at home. And sometimes it scares people straight, but at the same time, the parents don't understand you at all and why you were going down a bad path. And then when you come home, you feel so misunderstood because you've just went through this crazy thing, and your parents aren't just, like, putting their arms around you and be like, what am I missing? Why aren't we connecting? You know? So the whole thing, I agree. You know, I know all about it, and I'm so sorry that you went through that, but go ahead with your story. Sorry.

[Kat Crowder]

No, no, you're good. I feel like that's so interesting that you've been to somewhere similar, because you really don't understand unless you've actually been there. I tell people all the time about it, and they're like, wait, what? And I'm like, yeah, it's crazy, but no, so. So while I was there, you know, supposedly dealing with my trauma from my dad's alcoholism and all this, I ended up getting pneumonia super, super bad. And they don't take you to the doctor. They don't do any of that. So they just put me on a mat in the gym floor. And then magically, they were like, hey, you're graduating tomorrow. So that day that I graduated the program, my mom came to watch my graduation with my grandparents, and my dad wasn't there. And I felt like that was very odd to me because he may have been, like, a crazy alcoholic, but he still was always present, at least physically.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

And so my mom, I could tell by her demeanor on the way home, like, she was just really, you know, dragged down. She was really going through, but she didn't want to tell me something. And I've always been nosy, as we've seen by my McKenzie videos. So I took her phone And I was looking through her phone and I saw all these missing person reports for my father. And so when I got home, finally she sat me down and she said, you know, we haven't heard from your dad in two weeks. He relapsed. I kicked him out because I can't keep going through this. And we haven't heard from him. And the next day was Thanksgiving, which was very abnormal. He'd always been to every holiday, every birthday. And so about two days after Thanksgiving, we hadn't heard from him. We got a call from the coroner's office in Birmingham, Alabama, and they had found his body and he had committed suicide. And that was like a pivotal. It's okay. That was like a pivotal point in my life because at that point, you know, I'd already been struggling with like, my self esteem and the things that were going on inside my home. But it was all over the news. So when I went back to school, I'd already been gone. And they knew I was at this treatment center. Now the first thing, everyone's looking at me like, oh, are you okay? Like, we saw it, like, what's going on? And I was basically just like, you know, like, screw this. Like, if my own dad didn't love me, my own dad couldn't stay around, like, why would I love myself anyway? So it just that really, like, I feel like set off the next few years in my life into just a downward spiral. You know, I started experimenting with other drugs and, you know, going in and out of jail, not really having much respect towards my mom at all, which I look back and I'm so, you know, especially as a mom now, upset with myself about. Because in my head I was like, if you wouldn't have kicked him out, he wouldn't have died. What did you do? And all this. So, you know, I started like taking from my mom to provide for my lifestyle and my habits and then putting her through even more stress. I started taking from my little brother. Like, it was just really bad. And that was the first time I went to jail was because my family had bought me a car, right? It was in their name. And I drove off. This is right after I moved to Nashville. I drove back to Birmingham and was missing. My mom was so stressed out, they kept telling me, if you don't come home, if you don't come home, we're going to call and report this car stolen. And so I would tell them, okay, I'm going to come home, I'm going to come home. Never would come home. Finally, they Actually did it. And that was the first time I ever went to jail. And it's really like a cycle at that point. You know, after that, once you're in the system, it's really hard to get out.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So how many days were you there the first time?

[Kat Crowder]

Like 30 days. And it felt like a year for me. I mean, I was 18 years old, had never, you know, been to jail. I'd been to the treatment center. I'd been to, like, hospitals and stuff, but not that. And in my head I was like, I'll never do that again. Right. And they ended up dismissing the charges because it was my mom's car. My mom came to court, and soon after that, you know, I got out, I tried to do good. I started smoking weed again. And then I would get arrested for, like, possession of marijuana. They knew me now, so I would. I would get arrested for that or for a petty theft. And it would be like three months here at a time. Three months here. And then while you're in there, you. It's. You meet other people. You know, you're with them all day, every day. So you tend to naturally get closer to these people. And unfortunately, not a lot of people want to get out and make a difference or change. And so that's what happened to me. I kind of got wrapped up with all of these bad people that I met in jail and got out, kept in contact with them, and it was just. It's like a domino effect, right?

[Greg Jackson]

For years, Gone south has been a podcast about crime in the American South. But for our new season, we're widening the lens. Through deeply reported narrative driven stories, we're digging into the myths, scandals, and power structures that still shape the south and in a lot of ways, the country itself. Follow and listen to gone South Season 5, an Odyssey podcast, available now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your shows.

[Kat Crowder]

So go fast forward.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sorry, I just have a question. So as you would be there that second and third time, and it's three months and six months, and you're making friends and you have a whole life in jail, is it almost harder for you to leave? Are you like, oh, I'm gonna miss these people? Cause I'm not going back to anything.

[Kat Crowder]

No, I mean, for me personally, I was always like, I can't wait till I get out. Like, this is still miserable. Like, here's my phone number. We'll connect when we get out. Which is like, don't. If anyone's watching that's got kids, go like, don't do that do not connect with people that you meet while incarcerated unless you can, like, actively see that they're doing better. Because unfortunately, the statistics are the statistics for a reason. You know, a lot of people, and it's majority of people who struggle with addiction really bad, the first thing they want to do when they get out is get high.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

And they're completely different people from the. The sober person that you met while incarcerating. They can drag you down so quickly.

[Anna Garcia]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

And that's what happened. So fast forward. It was 2020 when I had met these people through a girl that I met in jail. And, you know, I kind of like, clean to them because that's something I had struggled with, just getting validation from anyone who would give it to me. And they had the bright idea, like, let's go to Detroit. You know, I knew that they weren't partaking in anything good or anything beneficial. And I was. I said, you know, sure, let's go. I don't care. But I'm not going to drive this car because I know that there's drugs in this car. I know that there's guns in this car, and I'm not going to take the fall for that. So we drive from Nashville up to Detroit. We get to around Toledo, Ohio, which is right outside of Michigan, and they're like, will you please drive? Will you please drive? We're tired. We made it this far. What's going to happen? And I'm like, okay, fine. And when I look back, I think it was like a God thing or whoever, something protecting me. We pull into the gas station and I get in the driver's seat, and before I even pull out of the gas station, there's like 10 cops around me. And there was nobody there before, like when we pulled in. So my first thought is like, I'm freaking out. I don't know what to do. I know I'm going to go to jail. There's all this stuff in the car. I don't know y' all enough to know that y' all are going to be like, hey, that's mine. And so I. I just keep going. Stupid, reckless, ridiculous. I don't. I look back and I'm like, how did I have the guts to do that? I don't know.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, meaning you pulled out and you kept driving.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah. So how do you.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wait, how do you think they knew to stop you guys?

[Kat Crowder]

So in the paperwork that I got, they said that the tail light was out. Now, I don't know how true that was. They could have Ran the plate. I. The car ended up being stolen. These people had this car when I met them and it was stolen. I'm not surprised. And.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But it's worse because you ran or you took the car and drove.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So how far did that go on for?

[Kat Crowder]

I went through four counties in two states. So I went through Ohio all the way up to Detroit. It was like an hour and a half long. And it clicked after like, 10 minutes. I'm not gonna get away from them. I don't even know where I'm at. I'm not a NASCAR driver. I was just going straight down the interstate the whole time, like. And they just kept falling in behind me. And it's not funny, but I laugh because it's so absurd.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Kat Crowder]

And I'm like, why? I don't know what my thought process was.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And were you, like, speeding at this point or were you going slow because you knew you. I mean, the gas was going to run out at some point. Like, how does that work when you're in a. In a car chase? Out.

[Kat Crowder]

Right. So I was going fast the whole time, like 90 or above. And, you know, I could have hurt a lot of people, and I'm so grateful I didn't. And it was just crazy. So I. I ended up getting all the way to Detroit and I heard a loud, like, pop, bang. And I'm like, what is that? I thought it was a helicopter because it sounded like one. And they were like, no, that's the tire. And I was like, okay. At this point, I know that it's.

[Anna Garcia]

I'm.

[Kat Crowder]

It's over with. Like, I can't do anything. I can't step on the brakes because I'm going almost 100 miles per hour on the interstate with three wheels.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, that's smart to know. I don't know that everyone would know that. That you'll, like, spin out. Right?

[Kat Crowder]

Right. Well, I ended up spinning out anyway, so I cried. We crashed the grace of God. Nobody got hurt. But we were, like, 15ft away from a 18 wheeler carrying a gas tank, and the car was lit up in spark, so it could have been, you know, so much more detrimental than it ended up being.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Kat Crowder]

And that night I went to jail in Detroit. I ended up bonding out. I was supposed to go to court or. No. A year later, I was in Florida. I got pulled over. They said, you have to go to Ohio. I said, what? I've never been to Ohio. They end up extraditing me from Florida to Ohio. It took seven days.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow.

[Kat Crowder]

And they booked me In. Because that's where the high speed chase started. My bond was $50,000, so it was $5,000 to get out. It took me, like, a month to get somebody to bond me out.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And meanwhile, what is your mom saying?

[Kat Crowder]

My mom. I mean, the whole time, my family was just so disappointed, you know, I mean, I'm calling, crying. My mom's like, I'm not gonna do this with you anymore. I love you, but I'm not gonna enable you. I'm not gonna keep pushing. Like, I'm not gonna bail you out every time. I'm not gonna help you every time. They stopped doing that for me a long. A long time ago.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So they stopped enabling the behavior.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah. So it was much. And I think I took it as a More like, oh, you don't love me. You don't care about me, because I was young and stupid, and I look back, I needed that. I can't get a get out of jail free card because I can't make decent choices. So we were just calling at that point.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But you must have felt so alone. You're in a completely different state. You got arrested with people you didn't really know. And by the way, now your charges are even worse than they would have been because what were you getting? Possession. Did you get in trouble for the guns and the drugs? Or was it just the speeding and the.

[Kat Crowder]

So it was. It ended up for me just being the fleeing and eluding and, like, obstruction of official justice. The people that I was in the car with ended up taking, saying, this is mine, this is mine, and this is the. We took this car. Which I feel like if I would have known that before, I probably would have pulled over, but I didn't know. And I mean, the whole situation, me even being there was just. Just absurd. It's just stupid. But so I bond out, right? And then I keep living my life, how I'm living it. I'm like, I was in that mindset for so long. Oh, it won't happen to me. I'm not gonna get in trouble like that. I could never actually go to prison. They're gonna give me probation, whatever. So I end up living my life,

[Rachel Yukatel]

and you go back home and you're living with your mom or where are you living?

[Greg Jackson]

No.

[Kat Crowder]

So I'm just kind of like, bouncing around from house to house, like with friends, if we want to call them that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

No job.

[Kat Crowder]

No job, just making. Just hustling, basically. Making money, however. And I end up meeting my daughter's dad shortly at this time. Obviously, she Wasn't born. And I'm sorry. I'm like, instantly around him every single day. And I get pregnant very fast, knowing that I have warrants in Ohio. So when I find out I'm pregnant, I was like, you know, it was like, easy for me to be like, I'm not going to do any type of drugs. I'm not going to drink. I'm done vaping. I'm done living like this. I'm going to start to get my life together and I'm going to have this baby and I'm going to whatever. And this is when my mom. I reached out to my mom, like, we had not been talking for like four or five months. And I was like, you know, I'm pregnant and I'm gonna have this baby. And my family was like, are you out of your mind?

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Kat Crowder]

They were like, you need to get. You need to have an abortion. And I was like, I can't bring myself to do that. Just personally, I wanna have this. I feel like this is happening for a reason. And I feel like this baby's gonna save my life.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So they didn't see it as, like a good thing that was gonna make you turn around? They were like, this is just another symptom of her ruining her life.

[Kat Crowder]

Right. They looked at it like, I know you have warrants. They thought in their head I was gonna go away for like 10 years. Yeah. And they said, they were like, I'm not gonna raise your child while you go to prison. Foreshadowing. So I was like, I'm not gonna go away for long. Just living in my own delusion. I'm gonna try and sort it out before I go and not have to go at all. Anyway, so fast forward, I'm behaving like, to the best of my ability, still don't have a job relying very much on my daughter's dad.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And was that a good relationship? Was he good to you?

[Kat Crowder]

He was good. It was pretty toxic. We're not together anymore, at least.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But do you guys have a relationship of co parenting?

[Kat Crowder]

No. So he's not in the picture right now.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Kat Crowder]

Okay. So we end up. Anyway, I end up having my daughter two days before Christmas. And, you know, I'm so ecstatic at this point. My family's come around. They're. They're excited. They're so worried, but they're excited it's happening.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So they got to get on board. Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

Right. They threw me like a huge baby shower. I was so grateful. They gave me every single thing I could need and more. And then February 3rd. So, like, a month and a half, six weeks after I was arrested in Nashville, did you know it was coming? So I knew that eventually I was going to get arrested for the charges in Ohio, but I had no idea it was going to come. I had charges and warrants out in Nashville that I didn't even know that I had had. So I was completely blindsided. And I had to sit in county jail for 18 months in Nashville while I fought that case. They got dismissed. I pled out to probation for, like, two of them from 2020. And this is 2023. And, well, I did. I pled out 2024. So then I get X ray to Ohio in April, and that's when I very quickly arrived to prison in Ohio with Mackenzie Cirilla.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So before you get into that story, just quickly, did your mom and your little brother, whoever, take care of your daughter at the time that you went away?

[Kat Crowder]

So my mom and my grandparents. My daughter was with her dad for the first, like, four months. And I was, like, losing my mind in there because, no, I feel like a father is more than capable of doing it. But this was a newborn baby. I knew we. That I knew the lifestyle. I knew he was a broken individual just like I was. And it stressed me out. I had no. I have no doubt that he loved her and that he wanted to do it. But he called me or I called him one day, and he said. He told me he was like, your parent. Your. Your parents can come get her. I cannot do this by myself. Like. And he was crying. I knew he didn't want to do it. I knew it was something hard for him. But I, like, breathed the biggest relief. My family went to go get her. My mom on the way there was crying and was like, I don't know if we can do this. We can find a good family for her. Like, she deserves that. You're going to be gone for so long. I'm, like, bawling my eyes out, and I'm like, please do not give away my baby. You know, like, I'll be home. And everybody, like, in the cell was like, she's gonna get that baby, and she's gonna completely change her mind. And so my mom tells me to call her 20 minutes in, like, 20 minutes, she was pulling up to go get her. I call her, and she's like. I'm like, what are you doing? She's like, I've got my baby. We're gonna give her the best life until you come home. And I Was, like, just completely melted. So they, my grandparents and my mom both raised her while I was in prison. And for that, I'm, like, grateful is an understatement. Because I have been in there with so many women whose kids instantly go to, like, the system.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Kat Crowder]

And those are the women that you see never, like, nine times out of ten, never get it back. Right? Because they're just carrying that around. They lose all hope, and they're going in and out and in and out and struggling with addiction. And it's sad. So I'm just super great that my family was able to. To do that for me.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I'm so happy for you. That story. That's a great story. And also, you know, I know he's not in your life right now, but what a courageous thing for your ex to get to the point in his life where he knew that he couldn't handle it and call you and arrange it with your parents as opposed to do God knows what, what he could have done. And so, you know, I wanna say that I think that that was pretty brave, and it sounds like it was pretty hard. And whatever he's dealing with now that he's not in the picture, you know, eventually it'll come to him. And, you know, at least he's doing what he needs to do away from you guys right now. And that's what he needs to do to figure it out, you know. Okay, so let's now talk about you get to prison. How does that so explain prison to all of us who have never been there, who are scared to death of it. So go ahead. So tell me what that's like, and is it. You said you were in the jail system for 18 months first.

[Kat Crowder]

Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So what's the difference between jail and prison?

[Kat Crowder]

So jail and prison. Jail is kind of like a holding facility. So if you are either fighting a case, so going back and forth to court and it's felonies, you can be housed in jail unless you make bail. And I didn't have a bail when I was in County. County, they had taken it away because I hadn't gone to court for that stuff. In Ohio. Now, prison is. So think of county like, I'll say Davidson county, because that's Nashville. So say it's Cat Crowder. Mary Katherine Crowder versus the county. Davidson County. So my charges are in county now. Prison is for people who were there. And it was Mary Katherine Crowder versus the state of Ohio.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Kat Crowder]

So that's where you go if you're, like, convicted of a Felony, and you're set to serve a prison sentence. And you have a lot more freedom, believe it or not. It's more in prison. Yeah, so. So county is like just a holding facility. It's like one cell. There's not anything to do. They have no resources. It's miserable. Now, you'll hear a lot of people who have experienced it say that they would prefer to go to prison over county if they had to. Any day prison, you just have, like, the prison I was at has cosmetology school, you know, business school. You've got. You can get your bachelor's degree, your master's degree. If you don't have your ged, you can do culinary. There's a track, there is a volleyball court, a softball field, basketball court. There's all types of stuff. You can go to the cosmetology school and get your hair and nails done. And so I think it's definitely different than what a lot of people envision. At least the prison I went to.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And do you have, like, roommates there? Are you guys in one big room?

[Kat Crowder]

So at Ohio Reformatory for Women, it's one big room. There's a bunch of units on the compound, but each one, except for, I think, like two of them that are sales, that they're big rooms with like a hundred bunks in them. Got it. So you're living very closely with a lot of women at all times. And a lot of women are there for some crazy stuff.

[Anna Garcia]

I'm Anna Garcia, host of True Crime News, the podcast. Every week we bring you in depth coverage on cases making headlines. And as well as those that go under the radar, tune in for murders that defy explanation, mystery seeking, exploration, and shocking secrets that will leave you breathless. Each week, we honor the victims by going beyond the salacious in our search for justice. Crime never stops, and neither do we. Listen to True Crime News, available now on the Odysee app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kat Crowder]

Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And is it scary like you see when you're watching TV programs about it or. And are there like groups of girls and they're all fighting all the time and it's a nightmare? Or it's kind of like being at some sort of a camp or a boarding school where you make friends and you kind of just get through the day?

[Kat Crowder]

I think that each experience is so different for other people. So I was in the treatment transfer program. So I was in like an honors dorm, right, like, where that didn't happen because you would get kicked out and you would lose your early release date. Oh, now there was Rogers, which Mackenzie is in now. And it was known as the Raw Jacks. So it was pretty ratchet there. That's where the girls are, like, doing all the drugs and fighting a lot, which I didn't see that because I wasn't in that unit. Now on the yard, everybody comes out on the yard all at once. And people tend to pretty much keep a lower profile out there. I saw like, maybe three fights out there.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Totally.

[Kat Crowder]

Still not normal for a lifestyle. But when you think of prison and you're like, oh, three fights in almost a year, that's not bad. You think of every single day you're fighting for your life, you know? And it really wasn't like that. I would say the biggest thing was, like, the drugs that are brought in there, because they really are, like, rampant. If you think that, like, the opioid epidemic or fentanyl epidemic is bad out here, the drug epidemic is, like, 10 times worse inside prison.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So you gotta explain that to me. Cause first of all, I don't get it. I don't get how drugs are brought in there at all. I mean, you always see these things, movies about it, but, like, that seems crazy that it's really happening, especially in, like, a women's prison.

[Kat Crowder]

So the. When I say drugs, I mean, it's not like heroin or meth. There's this stuff that I'm. Back in the. Like back in the day was called spice. Okay, Right. So, like synthetic marijuana, K2 is what they call it in prison. It's. Can sometimes be cut with, like, wasp, can be cut with embalming fluid, and it gets sprayed on paper and the COs bring it in. So when I was there, I saw probably like 6 cos and just staff members in general, we call it getting walked. So they get literally escorted off by Internal affairs off of the property because they would find piles and piles of it, and they're selling it to certain inmates, and the inmates are selling it. How? How.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But how does, like, the warden allow this? Like, how does that. How is that possible?

[Kat Crowder]

I mean, it's. I'm. I'm. The. The warden doesn't allow it. You know, he's not. He knows it's happening, but there's. So you got to think there's. For the women's prison alone, there's three prisons in the state of Ohio. For the women, there's like seven or eight for the men. And so you've got all this turnover of staff coming in and in and in and out, and a Lot of times, you don't even expect who it is. I saw it was a case manager that had gotten off, which is like, the equivalent to, like, a counselor or, you know, a therapist getting escorted out.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So they are getting consequences. They're getting in trouble for it. It's not like it's allowed to happen by their senior people. Okay, so they get caught, and what is the reaction? Like, how do you know somebody's on drugs? Are they, like, laid out, strung out, or.

[Kat Crowder]

There's a lot of ways you can tell, you know, whatever, because I never. I never did it. I was offered it a lot. I was too scared because I would literally see people. We used to call it, like, they would cockroach up, which sounds crazy, but their hands would, like, go stuck. They would, like, their body would stiffen up, and they would, like, fall over or not be able to get on their bed, or their fingertips would be black, or you would see them with wires and batteries, because that's how they would light it up. It was just crazy. Like, I saw a girl literally dive head, like, nose dive off of the top bunk into the concrete because she was so high. Like, it got to a point where there was a really bad batch while I was in there, and people were acting so crazy that segregation, where you go when you get in trouble, was full. So they were putting them on, like, back order. So when this person gets out, then you'll go. It was crazy.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow. All right, so. So now you and Mackenzie were in two different dorms. Is that. And you would only see each other then when you guys were let into the. What do you call it?

[Kat Crowder]

The yard.

[Rachel Yukatel]

The yard, yes. Okay, so tell me about meeting her, and were you there first? Was she there first? How did you. Tell me about that?

[Kat Crowder]

So she was there first. She got there, I want to say, like, August of 2023. And I got there, like, April of 2024.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay.

[Kat Crowder]

And when I. So you do 30 days roughly, in admissions, and then you pop out is what we call it. You get put into general admission, which is the yard and. Or general population, and you go to your unit, and we have three yards a day, so the majority of our time is spent on the yard. You're really only in your unit from, like, 9pm to 6am and for count time.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Kat Crowder]

So when I first saw her, my first impression was like, what is this girl doing here? You know, she does not look like many of the other inmates. She's very young. She has a full face of makeup on. Like, what is she Doing. Cause she's hard to miss. You know, she's got, like, bedazzled things in her hair and, like, gemstones on her makeup in prison. Mm.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, my gosh. So that's allowed. You can. Is she in cosmetology school or something? Is that how she's getting this?

[Greg Jackson]

This.

[Kat Crowder]

I'm not sure if she is now, but are like, your families and your loved ones can order stuff for you from these third party vendors that are approved by the prison. And makeup is one of the things that's on there. And it was like, a lot of it. And she always. She had to have had a lot. And it's expensive, so if it's like a wet and wild powder, that would be like $2. They're paying like 15 to get it in. But.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But that just surprises me that makeup would be allowed because that's. I mean, makeup or even like, do you guys have a jumpsuit or. People could wear certain things.

[Kat Crowder]

So we have our. We call them our states, and that's like our state issued uniform. There's like, we have three of them. And when we're not. So after dinner, we have to wear them Monday through Friday until dinner. And then after that, for the last yard, you can wear your personals. So it's like jumps. Not jumpsuits, but like sweatpants, T shirts, like basketball shorts, hoodies that your family can also order. And they're all either like green or blue.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it. Okay. But you can't wear those at night. Like, to bed.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah, you can wear them to bed.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, got it. So. Wow. That, to me, seems odd because you would think that this shows a monetary value and diversity in that way too, because so many people would be decked out or have nicer clothes than the others, which I think causes a lot of problems anyways. But that's a whole nother episode about prison in general. So talk to me about your relationship with Mackenzie and how well you knew her.

[Kat Crowder]

So I've, you know, in all the interviews I've done, I've tried to, like, explain. Like, me and mackenzie were by no means friends, so we were not close. We had like, maybe a couple conversations, but we hung out with similar people and we saw each other every day in the yard. I just. When I went there, my schedule was very busy, so I had to do a lot of classes because, like I said, I was in this program that got me released early and I could get in no trouble.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And how long were you. When you got in, how long did you think you were going to be

[Kat Crowder]

in there for 18 months.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And how long did you. When did you get out after how long?

[Kat Crowder]

So I got out seven months later in September. Oh, got it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So you. You shaved off a lot of time.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah, got it. Yeah. So I did the last 10 months in a halfway house.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right, Got it. So go back to your story. I apologize.

[Kat Crowder]

No, it's okay. So, yeah, we were never like, super close, but like I said, you can't miss her. I mean, I found. Found out why she was in there with. In like. Like 24 hours of me being there. They were like, do you know who that is? That's the girl that ran her car into a wall and killed her boyfriend.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And, like, had you read that story before in the news?

[Kat Crowder]

So I hadn't. And I think that was, like, so such a. Like, big thing for me because all these people knew about her, and I didn't know till I got out because, one, I'm not from Ohio, right? I'm from Tennessee. So I was just passing through, and I'm like, oh, I've not heard this. And everyone else knows, like, they were sitting in there watching her ID channel documentary while. While she was in there.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, no way.

[Kat Crowder]

And I thought that was wild. And I was. They were like, yeah, her mom, like, Because I guess her mom made some statement in the document, the old documentary. I was like, this is crazy, because you don't. When you find out, you're, like, looking at her and she's like, maybe 90 pounds.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, wow.

[Kat Crowder]

Little girl, young. And at that time, she didn't present herself like she did in the documentary at all.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Meaning what? How did she present herself?

[Kat Crowder]

She was very, like, almost like, bubbly. She gave off more like popular girl in high school vibes, not popular girl in prison, which is the. The vibe I was getting from her in the documentary. When I saw her walk out, me and many other girls that were in there were like, who is that? From the way that she talked and from the way that she looked, not the same person. So.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But when you say that, do you mean, like, she was bubbly and kind and nice and quiet and mousy, or she was like, you know, what does that mean?

[Kat Crowder]

Think. You know, I've said it. I said it when I was on News Nation, and they've taken it and rolled. Rolled with it. But think Regina George.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, got it. So mean girl.

[Kat Crowder]

So, like a mean girl. Yes, but in a way, with the

[Rachel Yukatel]

face being like, she's so nice, but then would turn around and be like, fuck that bitch.

[Kat Crowder]

Not even like that. It was just like almost like on Wednesdays we wear pink and we do our hair like this and full face and makeup. Like, she was very obviously making fun of people who had less than her. She didn't try to hide it. She kind of walked around like she was a socialite in prison, which in prison is not a cool thing to do. Like, that does not make you cool. Now, the way that she was acting in the documentary, like, tough kind of gangster life.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Kat Crowder]

That's what History that Doesn't Suck is a legit, hard hitting American history podcast told through entertaining stories. Join me, Professor Greg Jackson for History that Doesn't Suck, an Odyssey podcast, available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, equates you to cool in prison, which is weird, but that's just how it is.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And so did she act gangster at all when you saw her?

[Kat Crowder]

No.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Kat Crowder]

You would think that, like, if I could paint a picture, she never actually was like, skipping. But think of like a girl walking with her hands, like, strutting her, like, hips and kind of like talking like a valley girl and curling her hair and doing her eyeline. Like, think that, you know, not the I'm here to tell my true, you know, like, whatever accent that was. And that was not her.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So she's also not walking around like, oh, my gosh, I'm so upset about what I'm here for. I cannot believe, like, I always say this when I talk to people who are inmates or whatever. If somebody told me I had to spend a week in my house, and I have a very nice house, I would flip out because I can't imagine being confined and not knowing when you're gonna leave and, you know, like, that would scare the shit out of me. And so it didn't seem like she was in a state of cowering in the corner, being like, I have to get out of here.

[Kat Crowder]

No. So I've always said, like, when I was in there with her, she walked around there like she was getting out the next day.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Kat Crowder]

And I was there for like seven months. Right. And I was miserable.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

I mean, I walked around, I was very quiet. Not because I was scared or frightened. Well, one, because I wanted to not get any trouble. I kept my head down. But two, because what was constantly running through my mind was, I've got this many days, and if you take this many days and put it in the weeks, then it sounds shorter and, you know, like, just constantly thinking about getting out because it's miserable in there. Yeah, you've got these schools and stuff. But I mean, all I was thinking about was getting home to my daughter and getting home to my family and being able to use the bathroom in peace. Like, just things like that. Like simple things that you get stripped of. Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So she's still too worried about being famous and her popularity as opposed to like, okay, let me figure out how I'm going to have a purpose in prison and I'm going to go to this school and I'm going to be serious about why I'm here or whatever.

[Kat Crowder]

Right. 100 and did you ever.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Go ahead.

[Kat Crowder]

She just isn't making. She wasn't then making any of the steps. Like, there's so many opportunities in there that you can, especially for somebody who's supposed to be going up for appeals and parole to be like, look at what I've done in prison. You know, I've completed this class. I've completed this class. I've gotten my bachelor's degree.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I've got.

[Kat Crowder]

My cousin taught any of that. So I just pulled her disciplinary records. I know a lot of us have seen those. It's like 58 pages. She was getting written up June 20th or May 20th of June, just a couple weeks ago for refusing to go to work. So it says she works in cfs, which is the chow hall, which means she's not in school. She's not in any type of class, because if you're in school, then you don't have to work.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, I see. Okay. And she refused to go to work.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah. Three times in the month of May, she refused to go to work.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So she's still getting in trouble while she's there.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah, she had 30. She's had 36 conduct reports since being incarcerated.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So what do you think about when you saw the crash come out? What did you think about all this?

[Kat Crowder]

I, you know, people. I had been making videos on TikTok about being in prison with her, about being in prison with a lot of other women just who were high profile cases. And I made one about her like nine months ago. I had no idea that it was coming out until some of my followers were like, hey, are you gonna watch the documentary? And then I was having people text me, like, my friends that were like, the documentary comes out in two days. And I'm like, what documentary? And. And so I turned it on. The night that it came off came on, because I was like, yeah, let me just give my take on it. Right. And when she walked out, like, I had already seen all the stuff Leading up to that. But when she walked out in prison, like I said, my jaw just dropped. And I think that's what. I think that's why so many people are drawn to this one. Because you've got the Mean Girl Murders episode that she's on on HBO Max, or she's. It's based off of you've got the identity or ID1. But people are so drawn to this one. And I think it's because you can actually see her behind bars and get a better idea. And I think Netflix, in my personal opinion, did a really good job at making her look like the person that she is, Especially when they panned over and they kept it rolling when she was in the middle of tears, talking about how she had no intent and then completely changed demeanor when she thinks that they're done rolling and looks at her lawyer and says, do you think I did too much? I just really don't want to do too much. Like, it was just, like, very evident that she was doing this to make herself look better, and it kind of turned around and bit her in the ass.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right? Well, it's interesting because as I watched it, Listen, I remember following it in the news as it happened and thought it was terrible. But at the time, you do look at her and you're like, wow, could that have been an accident? Like, who really would do something like that? You know? And by the way, I don't mean this in a good way at all, but it takes some courage to put your foot down on that pedal and be like, I'm done. Like, I'm killing myself and my boyfriend and some random friend in the car.

[Kat Crowder]

Right?

[Rachel Yukatel]

You know, I would think at that last minute, even if you've made that decision, you take your foot off the brake as you get closer to that wall. Like, I cannot even imagine, even if you have a death wish, to have that much courage to be like, I'm in on that, you know? So I didn't know what to think. And obviously I didn't care that, you know, it wasn't like I was thinking about it all the time. So then as these documentaries came out and the crash came out, they did a great job of showing you all angles, like, what a tragedy this was, how upset her parents were, how much they did love the boyfriend, you know, or, you know, cared about him enough that they were devastated about it, how awful this was, and then they gave you some options. Could it have been the mushrooms? Then the mushrooms didn't show up. Could it be the drugs? Could it be the fights, could it be some medical problem she had? You know, so they did a good job. I think at the end of the day, everyone realizes she was unstable before this happened. She was unstable before the drugs. The drugs just probably made it worse. And she's a young girl and she was in a toxic relationship and she didn't wanna get broken up with. And there could be all sorts of things that people say, but I can't think that even if you blacked out, your foot is full force into the wall like that. So did she ever. Or did you hear from friends in prison that she ever mentioned the two people in the car with her who died?

[Kat Crowder]

So me personally, I never heard her talk about them. Now I interviewed Cheyenne Topping, who was her. She's kind of blown up as a prison ex girlfriend. And she's mentioned that she talked about Dominic to her every now and then, but never Davion, which, I don't know. I feel like he gets so kind of, like, minimized in the situation. And I think that's one of, like, the saddest parts about it because he was. I mean, obviously neither one of them deserved to lose their life by any means. I've talked to Christine Russo, Dominic's sister. You know, she's really big at advocating for him. She has her own, like, whole podcast and just trying to keep, like, his memory alive and in a good light. But you never really hear anything about Davion. And I feel like, yeah, he's just been kind of overlooked. He was just in the wrong car that night.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

You know, I think he got there to, like, help his friend out and it just escalated and cost him his terrible.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Such a terrible situation. What are your thoughts about these conversations and text messages that have been released since the documentary came out of her mom talking to her in prison? Like, did anyone ever talk about the mom? Like she was some big hero or.

[Kat Crowder]

No, they all from. They. Like I said, they watched one documentary where the mom was in it and they were all like, her mom's full of shit. You know what I mean? Like, and she is. Her mom is. Her mom and dad are. I feel like her biggest problem. That even got her into this mindset or anything, because they just let her do whatever the she wants.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So wait, tell me quickly about what you heard. So I heard she had like four relationships. Maybe it was from you on your Instagram with women in prison. Right? Like, what's that about? She's all of a sudden a lesbian.

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah. So that's super common for people to get in there. And that's one of the things from TV shows that we see. That's true. And on my way out the door, you know, towards the end of my sentence, she was walking around with hickeys and stuff. And now there's been like two or three girlfriends that have gotten out since and have came out and said that they were with Mackenzie on an intimate level. And her write ups are showing her, you know, getting written up for sexual conduct out of place, being in her girlfriend's unit, and just things of that sort.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So she's kind of enjoying prison. It sounds like it's not like a difficult thing for her.

[Kat Crowder]

It doesn't seem like it, no. Now, I don't know what goes on in her head at night. I don't. You know, none of us do. But the way that she acts, it definitely seems like somewhere she's gotten comfortable. Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And last question about that topic is, do you think what's her reputation there? For the most part, are people like, oh, that's a popular girl. She's famous. I want to be friends with her. Or they're like, like, she's just a nightmare. Like, what are they thinking about her?

[Kat Crowder]

I think it's definitely, like mixed perspectives. Like I said, a lot of girls are in there trying to just do their time and get out, and they're not even phased by MacKenzie. Now the ones that have the same mindset at McKenzie as MacKenzie, like, just want to party in prison, I guess they're like, oh, yeah, that's Mackenzie. She's got money, her family, she's got a lot of stuff. Her family will send whatever. Like, we need to be friends with her. She and kind of like that situation. So she's got, I guess what you could say, like a popular status inside prison, but not for the right reasons,

[Rachel Yukatel]

obviously, with those people who are doing that kind of thing. Talk to me a little bit about getting out of prison because it's clear. By the way, I'm really impressed by what a good communicator you are. You do, really. It's not easy to like, all of a sudden be on podcasts or on News Nation or whatever it is and have conversations. I'm really impressed by the way you speak, the way you tell stories, and I do really wish you the best of luck. I hope that this is a whole new path for you and everything is just a learning curve from in the past. Rear view mirror and you are all good ahead. I really wish that for you.

[Kat Crowder]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Of course. But I am curious when people are let out of prison, how hard is it to be given a second chance? Because now you have all these things on your record, it's hard to get a job. You know, just talk a little bit about that for like a second.

[Kat Crowder]

It's not easy. You know, there's a huge stigma that comes with the word felon in prison. And for me it was difficult, especially getting a job. I would get job offers, I would go into the interviews and, you know, I guess people would have the same mindset, oh, you're so well spoken. You don't seem like somebody would go to prison. I'm going to offer you this job. The background check would come back and they would like revoke my offer. And I finally ended up getting my ABC license in order to bartend. So I bartend at a local restaurant. So love, so grateful for that opportunity.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Are you back in Nashville? Where are you living?

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah, so I'm back in Nashville. I still face like criticism, especially after this, all of this. Now everybody knows I've had regulars come in. Some are like cheering me on, some are like, but you handle my credit card, you know, And I'm like, well, I've been handling your credit card for 10 months and you never had an issue until now. So it's kind of like just continue. It's going to always be a thing.

[Anna Garcia]

Yeah.

[Kat Crowder]

I'm in cosmetology school so I want to do hair. I've always loved all things girly, makeup, all of that. And I'm a full time mom, so it's possible to change your life around. But people, like get so defeated by so much rejection that it causes them to just give up and go back to what they know or what has worked in the past.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Kat Crowder]

So my advice is to just keep pushing and keep trying because you'll get that one opportunity finally. Even you just have to be consistent and persistent.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I love that. And then I would think that the most important thing besides being persistent and not giving up on yourself is finding at least one person that hasn't given up on you or doesn't given up on you, who's not from the wrong side of the track. So who is that person for you? Like, I know you have your best friend there watching your daughter while we're doing this interview. Is your mom still big in your life and your grandparents?

[Kat Crowder]

Yeah, my mom is like my best friend and my mom all in one. We've gotten so close. She's so happy and proud of me for sharing my story. My grandparents, they're not with the social media. They're like, oh, my God, the whole world knows that you've gone to prison, like, great. But they're supportive. They help me with my daughter. They help because my license is suspended. They help me get places. They're very helpful. And then my best friend, you know, she's like my sister.

[Anna Garcia]

She.

[Kat Crowder]

State was good before and good now, so it was one of those friends who just didn't give up. I've had a lot of people who have just been super supportive and I think that's really important.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Good. Tell people where they can find you and watch more of your content.

[Kat Crowder]

So you can find me on TikTok, YouTube and Instagram and it's all underneath bougie behind bars. One word, Cat Crowder. And.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And if people want to support you and like, how long until you get your cosmetology license and they can come to you and get your hair. Their hair done.

[Kat Crowder]

So I've got like till the end of this year. It's an indefinite. But about like November, December, I'll be done.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And your goal is to work at a salon in Nashville.

[Kat Crowder]

I want to work at a salon and then eventually have my own salon.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I love that for you, Kat. I wish you the best of luck. If you ever come to Palm Beach. Let's hang out if I come to Nashville. I was just in Nashville last year for my bachelorette party, which was really fun. Oh, my goodness. You guys have a lot of fun bars there.

[Kat Crowder]

For sure. For sure.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But please, I do wish you the best of luck. I will be following along on your journey and I hope other people take the opportunity to look at your content because it's great and you are the epitome of somebody who is someone who has traveled with a stigma. But you absolutely deserve a second chance and I hope you know that everything is good going forward with you.

[Kat Crowder]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Of course.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email [e-mail] that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much. And I'll see you next.