Death in Apartment 603: Gavin Fish on Ellen Greenberg’s Mysterious Case

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Episode: Death in Apartment 603: Gavin Fish on Ellen Greenberg’s Mysterious Case
Air Date: September 29, 2025
Guest: Gavin Fish (Independent Investigator & YouTuber)

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Overview

This episode unpacks the intensely debated, mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg, a 27-year-old Philadelphia teacher whose violent and suspicious demise was controversially ruled a suicide after initially being declared a homicide. Host Rachel Uchitel welcomes Gavin Fish—investigator, advocate, and expert on the case—for a detailed discussion of the crime scene, possible cover-ups, investigative shortcomings, the family’s ongoing fight for answers, and the broader implications for justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ellen Greenberg's Case: The Basics

• Background: Ellen Greenberg, first grade teacher, found dead in her apartment on January 26, 2011, with 20 stab wounds (10 to back of neck/head, 10 to chest/abdomen), discovered by her fiancé, Sam Goldberg.
• Initial ruling: Homicide
• Controversial reversal: Changed to suicide after internal deliberations between the police, medical examiner, and DA's office.
• Ongoing battle: Ellen's parents (Josh and Sandy Greenberg) have fought for years to reclassify her death as homicide or at least “undetermined.”

Rachel Uchitel (01:30):
“So today we are going to discuss the Ellen Greenberg case. This case is a highly controversial and mysterious death that has attracted significant public interest and debate.”

2. Why the Suicide Ruling Makes No Sense

• Physical Improbabilities:
  • 20 stab wounds, including many to the back of the head/neck.
  • One wound punctured through the dura at the base of the brain stem, likely causing instant incapacitation.
  • Medical examiners and independent experts question the plausibility of someone committing suicide via repeated self-stabbing, especially in such areas.

Gavin Fish (10:47):
“I can't explain in a believable way how it'd be possible... We couldn't figure out a way that she could.”

(11:48):
“There was one that was past this layer called the dura... the amount of pain that that would have caused, she wouldn't have been able to continue.”

• Blood Evidence & Positioning:
  • Dried blood trail inconsistent with final body position suggests movement post-mortem.
  • Possibility of crime scene being cleaned or altered.

3. Ellen’s Mental State & Relationship Dynamics

• Therapist reports mild anxiety, not depression or suicidality.
• Multiple old bruises documented in the autopsy, suggesting weeks of possible prior abuse—some on the neck.
• Evidence points to a potentially abusive relationship; Ellen expressed desire to move home, stressed by “work” (possibly a cover for other troubles).

Gavin Fish (14:38):
“In my opinion, she was in a very abusive relationship, very abusive environment, and she was looking for a way out.”

4. Sam Goldberg: The Fiancé’s Role

• Never a suspect, quickly lawyering up with a powerful attorney (Brian McMonagle).
• Conflicting accounts about his police interview—possibly shielded by family connections.
• Behavior during 911 call and at the scene viewed as suspicious; he doesn’t appear to have blood on him, nor did police document if they checked.
• First call after discovery: To his cousin (also a lawyer), not 911.

Rachel Uchitel (21:09):
“Why would you hire a very powerful criminal defense attorney? I mean, I think that's suspicious to me in general.”

5. Crime Scene & Evidence Mishandling

• No forced entry: Door locked from the inside with a hotel-style swing bar—breaking it would leave obvious damage, which wasn't found.
• Rapid professional cleaning authorized by police before all evidence was collected; Sam's family accessed the scene and removed multiple items, including laptops and Ellen’s phone.
• Key items withheld: Journal, clothing, and knife (never tested for DNA or prints) still held by authorities; parents denied access.

Gavin Fish (46:56):
“...the knife that was in Ellen's chest was never tested for fingerprints, never tested for DNA, never tested for any of that.”

6. Obstruction & Legal Hurdles

• Opaque investigation and lack of transparency from police and medical examiner’s office; Pennsylvania state laws limit public access to records.
• Influence & connections: Sam Goldberg’s family is wealthy and politically connected in Philadelphia; speculation this played a role in shielding him from investigation.
• Multiple lawsuits: The family is suing to have the manner of death reclassified and to expose a possible cover-up.
• Supreme Court involvement: The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has agreed to review whether Ellen’s parents have legal standing to challenge the suicide ruling.

Gavin Fish (38:13):
“So Josh and Sandy appealed that loss to the state Supreme Court and the state Supremes decided to take a look at it.”

7. Institutional Failure & Corruption

• Pattern of corruption: Gavin cites other cases with eerily similar mishandling and questionable suicide rulings.
• Community & public outcry: Increased attention as the case intersects with politics (e.g., Governor Josh Shapiro, whose links to the Goldberg family were anonymously tipped to Gavin).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gavin on the Crime Scene (00:00):
  “If I just walked to my apartment, fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere, blood on the cabinets, blood on the countertop, blood on the floor, blood all over.”
• Gavin on Police Records (28:11):
  “There is no report that indicates whether there was or was not blood on Sam Goldberg.”
• Rachel on Sam’s Silence (32:43):
  “It’s odd that he hasn't made a statement... you would want... to talk about it and say how upset he is by the allegations.”
• Gavin on the System (57:40):
  “I freaking hate corruption. And anytime somebody was obviously murdered and somebody is able to make it go away, that bothers me.”

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Timeline of Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–00:54 | Case facts, crime scene described | | 01:30 | Rachel’s introduction & case background | | 05:54–07:50 | How Gavin got involved; lack of early media coverage | | 07:50–09:14 | The night of the death – first responder failures | | 10:47–12:52 | Suicide theory – physical/medical impossibility | | 13:16–16:10 | Ellen’s mental state, anxiety, possible abuse | | 17:17–19:30 | Sam Goldberg’s background, social pressure | | 19:30–21:41 | Sam’s interviews, legal representation | | 22:01–25:15 | Locked door controversy, testing the story | | 26:05–27:43 | 911 call assessment, inconsistencies in Sam’s story | | 29:36–31:17 | Journal and evidence still withheld by police | | 32:43–34:29 | Sam’s silence and family PR strategy | | 35:40–38:00 | Josh Shapiro’s (Governor) connection, AG’s non-action| | 38:13–41:59 | Supreme Court, legal actions, standing debate | | 45:36 | Efforts to retrieve Ellen's journal & other evidence | | 47:53–50:15 | Crime scene cleanup, evidence mishandling | | 54:05–55:43 | Who has the power to reopen/investigate the case | | 57:40–58:50 | Gavin on wider patterns of corruption |

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Further Resources

• Gavin Fish’s work on the case: gavinfish.com and YouTube @gavinfish
• Legal filings, autopsy documents, case background: available via Philadelphia court records.

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The Host’s & Guest’s Tone

Rachel Uchitel: Empathetic, probing, at times incredulous at the ongoing institutional failures and lack of transparency.

Gavin Fish: Methodical, persistent, openly angry about corruption and injustice, appreciative of the Greenbergs’ fight, frequently referencing evidence and expert opinions but clear on the limits when speculating.

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Conclusion

This episode is a nuanced, eye-opening exploration of a case where verdicts, evidence, and justice all remain in question. The conversation shines a spotlight on systemic failures, the persistence of a grieving family, and the ongoing public demand for accountability amid institutional silence. Both Rachel and Gavin encourage listeners to continue the conversation and demand transparency—from officials, the legal system, and those still protecting the truth behind Ellen Greenberg’s death.

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Transcript

[Gavin Fish]

If I just walked to my apartment, fiance's on the floor with blood everywhere, blood on the cabinets, blood on the countertop, blood on the floor, blood all over.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Ellen Greenberg. She was a 27 year old first grade teacher. Was engaged to a guy named Sam.

[Gavin Fish]

Sam was a catch man. He came from a generationally wealthy Philadelphia family, extended family, had political power in the area.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sam leaves to go to the gym, comes back and finds her body.

[Gavin Fish]

I can't see anything.

[Rachel Yukatel]

She didn't.

[Gavin Fish]

There's nothing broken. She's bleeding.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Allie, you don't know where she's bleeding from?

[Gavin Fish]

I think her head.

[Rachel Yukatel]

It ended up being 20 stab wounds, 10 to the back of her head, 10 to the chest and abdomen. At first it was ruled a homicide and then something happened and it was changed.

[Gavin Fish]

There was a meeting between two people from the medical examiner's office, somebody from the DA's office, 10 people from the Philadelphia Police Department. And he changed the manner of death from homicide to suicide.

[Rachel Yukatel]

He was never a person of suspect. Is that true?

[Gavin Fish]

There is no report that indicates whether there was or was not blood on Sam Goldberg. There are several things that are inexplicably held by the police. Her journal, her clothing. The knife that was in Ellen's chest was never tested for fingerprints, never tested for DNA. I freaking hate corruption. And anytime somebody was obviously murdered and somebody is able to make it go away, that bothers me.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Welcome back to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. So today we are going to discuss the Ellen Greenberg case. This case is a highly controversial and mysterious death that has attracted significant public interest and debate. Let me tell you the background on this story. Ellen Greenberg was a 27 year old first grade teacher from Philadelphia who was found dead in her apartment on January 26, 2011. Her fiance at the time, Sam Goldberg, discovered her body after he returned home and found the apartment door locked from the inside. He forced his way in and found Ellen in the kitchen dead from multiple stab wounds. The initial cause of death was ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner due to the nature of the injuries. Ellen had 20 stab wounds, including 10 to the back of her neck and head. The other 10 were in her abdomen and chest. However, this ruling was later changed to suicide by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office, which has led to ongoing controversy. Several factors contribute to the case's complexity and the ongoing debate over whether her death was truly a suicide or a homicide. The first one is about the wounds and the autopsy. Autopsy findings Ellen's body had 20 stab wounds. As I mentioned, including some to the back of her head and neck, which is unusual, obviously, for a suicide. Additionally, there were signs of hesitation wounds, which are typically associated with suicide attempts but are uncommon in cases of suicide by stabbing. Number two is there was no signs of forced entry, the apartment door was locked from the inside, and there were no signs of forced entry, suggesting that no one else had entered the apartment. Number three, the defense wounds. Some experts have argued the wounds on Ellen's hands and forearms could be interpreted as defense wounds, indicating she may have tried to fend off an attacker. Number four is her mental health. Ellen was reportedly experiencing anxiety and had been prescribed medication, which some have argued could have influenced her mental state. However, those close to her have stated she was absolutely not suicidal. Number five, the crime scene investigation itself. Critics of the suicide ruling have pointed out to what they perceive as flaws in the crime scene investigation and the subsequent handling of evidence. Number six, legal and family action. Ellen's family has strongly contested the suicide ruling, arguing that it was a homicide and have sought to have had the case reopened. They have commissioned independent experts who have also questioned the suicide ruling. The case has been subject of several lawsuits and ongoing legal battles. Adding to the complexity, Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Sapiro, who was the state's top prosecutor during critical moments in the case of. Has faced pressure to reexamine the case, but has so far not intervened. Also, you may know his name because he was the number one VP pick that people were floating for Kamala Harris. The case remains unsolved right now, with many people, including legal experts, forensic pathologists, and the public, divided on what truly happened to Ellen Greenberg. The Philadelphia District Attorney's office has refused to reclassify the case as a homicide, and as of now, it remains classified as suicide. The case continues to be a subject of investigation, media coverage and public intrigue. So today we have on Gavin Fish. He knows this case inside and out. Get ready for my interview with Gavin Fish. Gavin Fish. Thank you so much for joining me today. I love that name, Gavin Fish.

[Gavin Fish]

I. I never loved it, but really, thank you.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah, it's one of those names. I feel like no one can just say Gavin. They have to say Gavin Fish.

[Gavin Fish]

Gotta say the whole thing.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah. Gotta say the whole name. It's a great name. Anyway, thank you for joining me. This is a fascinating. I think there's so many things misunderstood about it, and I'm just. I need to pick your brain so much. But before we get into it, I want to know, how did you. You were like the guy that knows everything about this case. Backwards, forwards, up, down, whatever. How did you get involved with this case? What drew you to it? How did you get to know the family? Just start from the beginning, back then, how you got involved.

[Gavin Fish]

I was a beginning youtuber and I had an email come in from a viewer saying, hey, if you like this case that you're covering now, you should check out Ellen Greenberg's case.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow.

[Gavin Fish]

And that's all it took. I'm like, oh, what is Ellen Greenberg? I will, I will take a look. And what I ended up doing was just being sucked into it. And there had been a lawsuit that had been filed that had a whole bunch of documents, and so I purchased those from Philly Courts, spent the next several months just studying them, and I. I was completely hooked on the case.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So. And did you get involved right at the beginning, when it happened? I mean, we don't really remember because none of us were paying attention back then. But was it a big case back then as it is now?

[Gavin Fish]

No, it wasn't. And I didn't get involved until about four years ago.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay.

[Gavin Fish]

It's been going for 13 and a half years. So this past January was the 13th anniversary of Ellen's murder, right? No, that the Greenberg's worked and worked and worked, trying to just get anybody to take them seriously or pay attention for years, and nobody would.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Okay. So let's just break down what the case is. For people that might be joining us right now that have no idea what we're talking about, I want you to explain it, but for the. For a little bit of background. Ellen Greenberg, she was a 27 year old first grade teacher, is that right?

[Gavin Fish]

That's right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Living in Philadelphia, was engaged to a guy named Sam. They lived together one snowy night, day, whatever it is, her fiance leaves to go to the gym and comes back and finds her body. There was. It ended up being 20 stab wounds, 10 to the back of her head, 10 to the chest and abdomen. At first it was ruled a homicide, and then something happened and it was changed and it was ruled a suicide. And this is where it all goes crazy. Am I correct so far?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, I mean, I think it was pretty crazy the very first night. So this is January 26, 2011. It's the middle of a nor', easter, like you said, huge storm. And I think that the first responders just really didn't want to be there. That's. That's what I think happened. So they. Yeah, his story, the. The story that they got from Sam Goldberg, who was Ellen Greenberg's fiance, Was, hey, like, nothing to see here. I was just down in the gym and I come back and the door was locked from the inside. I couldn't get in. Tried my darndest to get in. And I finally broke in and I found my fiance on the floor. He calls 911 and during the 911 call, he goes, oh my goodness. There is a giant knife stuck in her heart that I haven't seen for the last five minutes. You know, it was like this really terrible acting job. Guy, guy deserves a razzie for it. It is the worst. And from, from there, you know, first responders came. Most of the EMSs were like, yeah, we got a murder here. The police took a look at it and we're like, I think this might be a suicide. So they treated the crime scene like it was a suicide. Until the following day when the medical examiner looked at Ellen's body and said, there's not just a stab wound to her chest, she's been stabbed in the back of her head and neck. This is a homicide.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Gavin Fish]

Following that, the police did a multi month campaign publicly in the media in Philadelphia to disprove what the medical examiner was saying. They in the media had this campaign saying, no, this is a suicide. Until finally there was a meeting between the medical examiner, two people from the medical examiner's office, somebody from the DA's office, at least two people, as many as 10 people from the, from the Philadelphia Police Department. And they convinced the medical examiner that this was a suicide. And he changed the manner of death from homicide to suicide.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, so I want to talk about that because obviously this is why everyone's, you know, so curious about it, because of the way she was stabbed. Um, let's say technically that it was a suicide. How do you do that? How does one. I mean, I guess if you're, if you have your head. She was found in the kitchen. For people that don't know. So for. And I believe she was cutting up fruit or something. Is that what they were saying, that she was cutting something?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I mean, so technically, could it be, let's say that we were on the side of, okay, it is a suicide. Could she have put her head down and stabbed herself, like in the neck? Like, how. How do you do that? I'm. Because even if you have a suicide wish, I would think the pain of stabbing yourself that many times, it's almost like you can't physically do it. So explain that to me how it could be possible.

[Gavin Fish]

Well, I can't explain in a believable way how it'd be possible. I tried. My. My wife is almost a perfect avatar of Ellen Greenberg. Same height, same weight, same interests, as far as, like, yoga and, you know, fitness and all that stuff. So she was a very good avatar. And she and I went through the process of trying to figure it out. How. How could Ellen do this if. If she wanted to? We couldn't figure out a way that. That she could. Now, I have a friend who is a, you know, quadruple board certified forensic pathologist. He is a medical examiner. And when I talk to him about it, he talks in probabilities. Right. So he's like, is it possible? I mean, I've seen some stuff, Gavin. Yeah, I guess it might be possible, but what is the probability here? And that's what I keep coming back to. I just don't think that Ellen could have done that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And not only that, there was one of the stabs that severed her cord or something. Correct.

[Gavin Fish]

There was one that was past this layer called the dura, which is kind of a. It's a membrane that holds fluids and stuff like that in it, protects the nervous system and so forth at the bottom of the brain stem that was discovered to have been punctured. And any expert that I've talked to that has said that has seen that is gone, the amount of pain that that would have caused, she wouldn't have been able to continue. And we have to assume that if. If she committed suicide, we have to assume she continued because the knife was in her chest. So. And then later on, another pathologist who looked at it, who worked for Philadelphia, said that she didn't see any vital reaction, which means there wasn't a pulse in her body. There wasn't blood pressure that would cause it to bleed. And one of the reasons that she said, one of the reasons that could be is because her heart may have already stopped by then.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

So.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. So. All right, here I have a bunch of questions about this. Now. What was her. What did her family and friends and even Sam say was her frame of mind? I mean, she's a. She's a first grade teacher. Was she unstable? I mean, was she upset? Was she suicidal? Do people have, you know, knowledge of her, of her wanting to commit suicide?

[Gavin Fish]

So Ellen. Ellen was not depressed. She was seeing a therapist at the time. And the therapist said she was anxious, she was experiencing anxiety. So there was no depression. Ellen, in the weeks previous to her death, had reached out to a couple people, she had reached out to some of her friends, and she just said that Work was just very stressful right now, and she just wanted to get away from work. She called her parents and said, I'd like to move home. And, you know, work is just so stressful. I want to just give it up, and I want to move home. And her parents were kind of like, well, you know, you've got something good going here. Let's get you a therapist. If you've got issues, let's get a therapist. Let's help you work your way through this. And she had just started seeing the therapist.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I mean, that's kind of interesting. I mean, I'm not diminishing the stress level of being a toddler's, you know, a teacher for toddlers, basically. But, I mean, how stressful could that be that you want to give up your. Your job and move home? I'm curious if you really delved into it, if there was more that she was anxious about, and it maybe was manifesting as she was anxious about work, but could have been in her relationship or in her men, just mentally in general.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time thinking about that. Ellen. Ellen's body. Well, in the autopsy report, it says there are 11 bruises on Ellen's body. That is bull crap. They're not 11 bruises on Ellen's body. There are dozens of bruises on Ellen's body. They're everywhere, including her neck. There's hemorrhaging in her neck. Some of these bruises were old. They were like a week old, 10 days old. So, yeah, I think the evidence points to Ellen being in a very abusive relationship. And I, as a layperson, just kind of working my way through this, not being, you know, a psychologist or a psychiatrist here. I think it seems reasonable that somebody who is going through this kind of abuse would. Would by somebody that they love. Right. They're engaged to.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

With. Maybe she just wasn't able to. Yeah. And. And so maybe she believed it was work.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

You know, it was. But in my opinion, she was in a very abusive relationship, very abusive environment, and she was looking for a way out. She was saying that work was. Was very difficult. She not only did she talk to her parents about leaving, she talked to her cousin about leaving. Hey, can I move in with you? She had a cousin who lived in Philadelphia, and the cousin asked, well, are you coming to live with me, or are you and Sam coming to live with me? And at that point, Ellen stopped talking about it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So it's really interesting you bring that up because, you know, there's this movie that just came out that's gotten a lot of hype recently called, I think it's It Ends with Us, the Blake Lively domestic violence movie. Have you seen it yet?

[Gavin Fish]

I haven't seen it yet, no.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, I did and you know, it was interesting because it, it really does show how you get sucked in. And she was engaged to this guy and he starts to abuse her. But she was making excuses. And even as a viewer watching, you're like, well, did that happen and was it an accident? And how, you know, she would justify it and make excuses because she didn't really know if it was abuse, you know, because no one wants to believe that that can happen to them. And also, as a woman who has been engaged, you know, before a couple times, you, you, you know what that's like when you feel like that's final, like, how am I going to get out of this? Right. Like, because now everybody assumes that you're going to have to go to the, you're going to get married and to think about how you cancel the wedding, how you tell people that this is no longer a relationship.

[Gavin Fish]

Social pressure has to be immense.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Immense. Right. So I'm just, again, we're talking about probable things now.

[Gavin Fish]

By the way, Sam was like on paper, Sam was a catch man. He came from like a well to do Philadelphia family that was generationally wealthy. His parents were well thought of. His extended family had political power in the area. Josh and Sandy wanted nothing more than, than for their daughter to fall in love with a nice Jewish boy and have that traditional, you know, Jewish wedding and the whole thing. Right. So there was, there was so much pressure, I can imagine that, that she just didn't know how to deal with that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Me too. I can imagine that now there's maybe there is a probable thing that it wasn't him and it was someone else abusing her at work. I don't know, because she's talking, verbalizing that she's upset with work and she doesn't want to be there. I mean, we don't know where the bruises came from. But to go back to what you were talking about with the bruises, they were not just from the night that she was either murdered or committed suicide. There's evidence that the bruises were there for weeks or days before. Correct?

[Gavin Fish]

Correct. The medical examiner described it as multiple stages of resolution. So resolution meaning the healing process.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. I guess people could say that that was, could be self inflicted as well, but that's a whole nother, you know, I don't know.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, it could be. But you know, when Sam Goldberg was interviewed. He didn't say anything about it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Okay, so I want to get into his interview because I find this fascinating that he. So I read he was never a person of suspect. Is that true? I mean, first of all, we've all seen Dateline, and the ID Network is like the most popular network. I love the ID Network. It's always the spouse, you know what I mean? So why. And that's the first person that they have to clear. So we're going to get into the fact that we know now that, that people are saying there's rumors that his family is connected somehow with the police or with higher ups that maybe got him out of it. But just in the first night where you are like, wait a minute, what's happening here? We need to get his statement. Did they bring him down to the police station? Did they even question him as a suspect?

[Gavin Fish]

There are conflicting stories and the city of Philadelphia has done a very good job over the course of 13 years of not releasing information. They just. In the last couple of months, I think the Greenberg's lawyers have something like 5,000 pages of new police documents. So when I first started looking into this, I was told, oh, he was led away in handcuffs. And he was interviewed at the station. And that was by a very good source. But with the new docs that have been coming out, it doesn't appear that that was the case. It appeared that he was questioned. He was not in the. He's not technically in the presence of a lawyer. When he was questioned, though, two members of his family who are both powerful lawyers were there. But then a few days later, he was brough back to the station and he was represented by a man named Brian McMonagle. Brian McMonagle. Brian Mcmonagle represented Bill Cosby. He represented Catholic cardinals, you know, rappers, celebrities. He is one of the most well thought of defense attorneys in the nation, and certainly one of the most expensive. In that interview, the police weren't allowed to ask Sam very much, just tell us the story. And Sam repeated the story and that was it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, and what's interesting about that is if you are completely innocent, you want to find out who did this, or you think, you know, because of what you saw, that it's a suicide. Why would you hire a very powerful criminal defense attorney? I mean, I think that's suspicious to me in general.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, I, I don't want to begrudge anybody exercising their constitutional rights. Right. Like if, if my, if one children was being looked at by the police, you better believe That I would have a lawyer present for that. But it, I mean, I take your points. Pretty suspicious. It wasn't a lawyer. It was Brian freaking McMonagle. It was the lawyer. Right. So, yeah, to me, to me, Sam has always been the number one suspect, but police disagree with, with me, I think.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, so now let's go into why he seems like the number one suspect. There are a ton of reasons. You could attest to them more than me. But the first one to me seems to be the fact that he's already lied about how he got into the apartment and whether or not he was alone. That whole thing seems very suspicious. What do you think about that?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, he. Okay, so Sam, what happened? The official story, according to the reports, is that Sam said he went down to the gym to work out. They, they had their apartment on the sixth floor. The gym was on the first floor. And sure enough, when you look at surveillance or the security footage, he. He appears and he goes down into the gym and he's in there for some time and then he comes up and then we see him coming back down to the lobby several times, going back and forth. And the story was that he was looking for help getting into the apartment because it was latched from the inside with a swing bar lock, kind of like those hotel style locks. In fact, I think this building was probably a hotel before it was condos. So that's the kind of locking mechanism there was in the report from the ME's investigator. He says that Goldberg told him that he opened it up in the presence of one of the staff members of the, of the condo complex or the apartment complex. And that was one of the reasons why the medical examiner goes, oh, well, then that proves that Ellen was alone, because out on their balcony, which is really like a 6 inch balcony, it's decorative, really. It's not a real balcony. There are no footprints in the snow. There's. Nobody's coming into the apartment from elsewhere. But. So Sam is my number one suspect. One, because he was alone when he supposedly broke down that door. Two, the locking mechanism was not broken off of the door. And I've done several tests to try to figure out how he could have done that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. So that's, that's what I was going to ask you next because I've had an apartment that has that kind of lock that you're talking about. First of all, those are like impossible to get through, number one, unless for some reason, the amount of force you push into it breaks the actual lock off the wall.

[Gavin Fish]

Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And Then it comes off completely. You can't sever the, that thing that comes out in between. You know what I'm talking about, right?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So, so what did the lock look like when people were looking at it?

[Gavin Fish]

So the lock, there are two pieces to it. Right. There's the, the part on the door which is kind of like this post that hangs out and there's a. Actually hand. This is what I've been testing with all this.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, I love it.

[Gavin Fish]

So there's, there's a lock that mounts to the door and then on the door jamb there's this swing bar.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

So they, they go together like that. And you're right. When the door opens, it just, it latches. So if, if his story was correct and he broke the door open, then it has to have broken either off of the door jamb or off of the wall or, or both. I guess it could be right. But while the pictures show that it, that it was like it was forced somehow, it was still attached to both the door and the door jamb. So I guess the conclusion I came to is just that the story that he broke open the door is incorrect. It could not have happened that way.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right, but what do you mean by it shows that it was forced? Like the screws were loose.

[Gavin Fish]

A couple screws were kind of coming out a little bit. It was off of the door, but it was still attached to the door. Like there were, there were still screws that were, that still had a bite into that door.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I mean if I was a lawyer I would be thinking, well, shouldn't we call the company that makes this kind of lock? I mean the, the reason why they have those locks is so you are secure and no like 25 year old boy can just take his, his shoulder and knock down that door. That seems incredibly crazy to me. So that's suspicious. Obviously. I think it's, I think the 911 call is suspicious. I've heard it. I thought it was sort of odd that the, that the 911 dispatcher who was quite calm, I guess they always are, was like, sir, you need to calm down for us to be able to give you help. I didn't think he was that overly.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, she chewed him out a little bit.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah, yeah. And he was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry if I'm looking at my dead fiance on the ground covered in blood, I'm going to be a little excited. Do you know what I mean? I'm going to be like panting and freaking out and not Knowing what to do, and he's like, apologizing to her. And I just thought that sounded ridiculous, you know, So I also thought, yeah, the. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't, like, breathing heavily enough. I don't know. I just thought the whole thing was incredibly crazy.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, I. In my opinion, I don't even think Sam was in the room when he was talking to 91 1. I don't think he was anywhere near Ellen. He. He described her positioning to the 911 operator, and the positioning was not what police found when they got there.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, so that's another piece of, you know, weird evidence, you know, that the positioning was different than what he said. So they had talked about blood that was, I guess, dried on her face, Correct?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, there was. Let's see what. I think it was the left side. There's. There's a trail of blood from, like, her. The tip of her nose all the way to her ear. But when they found her, she was leaned up against the cabinet. So her. Her head was in the normal. Like the way my head is now. Right. So if. If her head had always been that way, then the blood would have dripped down her mouth and chin. It wouldn't have gone. So at some point, she was. She was supine. Right. She was on her back. And so it's an indication that her body had been moved.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Now, this would seem obvious to me that he would just say, listen, I sat her up when I was trying to look at her, or I don't know. He could answer that. And also the question would be, wasn't he covered in blood? If he tried to give her CPR or if he touched her, or if eventually he says on the 911 call, oh, there's a knife in her chest, you would think that he went to give her mouth to mouth or whatever he was doing. Right. So was there not a drop of blood on him?

[Gavin Fish]

The police did not have. Well, according to everything that I've seen so far, there is no report that indicates whether there was or was not blood on Sam Goldberg.

[Rachel Yukatel]

That's insane.

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay. Now, there was another thing that people were. Have been talking.

[Gavin Fish]

There's blood everywhere, right on the cabinets, blood on the countertop, blood on the floor, blood all over Ellen.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. And the only like a.

[Gavin Fish]

Like, it wasn't like Dexter. It wasn't like this gory scene. Right. Most of. Most of the blood that she lost, it went internally. It was in her chest cavity. If she hadn't died from. From, you know, her heart stopping Because a knife was in it. She would have drowned to death. All her entire chest cavity was just full of bl. She wouldn't have been able.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So what I also think is very upsetting for the parents and then for the. For the case in general is that she. It was found out that she did have a journal. The parents have not been able to see this journal, which I'm assuming means their lawyers or anyone that they need to really see. What was her state of mind up until then? Have not been able to see it. Now, I saw recently in the last week that they were saying the medical examiner or the. Is the group that has the journal and they have not let, you know, release that to anybody. I would think that that has a ton of evidence pointing one way or the other. What are your thoughts on the journal?

[Gavin Fish]

I think it could. There are several things that are. That are inexplicably held by the police. Her journal, her clothing, or the medical examiner's office, her journal, her clothing, a couple of personal items are still in the custody of the police. Which begs the question, in the state of Pennsylvania, as in every state in the nation, suicide is not a crime. So, I mean, helping somebody to commit suicide is often a crime, but if you were to kill yourself, that is not a crime. Therefore, they have no reason to hold anything because there is. There's. There's officially no crime.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

But in the state of Pennsylvania, what PA just has the worst laws when it comes to public records, especially exempting the police. It's very difficult to get any type of record out of the police or get anything out of the police. And so what they hide behind is this exemption that they can exempt from public disclosure anything related to a criminal investigation. Okay? So you can't have it both ways. You're holding it back because it's a criminal investigation, but you're also saying there's no crime.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Gavin Fish]

It's. It's been. So I would imagine there. There might be some in that. In that journal where Ellen maybe was telling other people, she was telling her parents, her cousin, her friends, work really sucks. But in her journal where she's telling herself things, is it possible that she is telling herself that, yeah, you've got to get out of this relationship. You're getting abused, you gotta go. It's possible.

[Rachel Yukatel]

What I also think is really crazy, that is that Sam the fiance has not made more of, you know, that he hasn't come forward enough to be like, let me explain what I saw. Let me explain how upsetting this was. To me, let me, you know, because now all we see is that he's never spoken, that he just moved on quite quickly and within, I think it was three or four years, he was married to someone else and now has two children or something and lives in New York City. And you know, I think it's, it's, it's odd that he hasn't made a statement. So I think that begs the question to me, was there an so again, probable cause? I'm, you know, I'm making this up. But there is, you know, there could have been something where they got into an argument. He was already seeing this other woman. There was, you know, there was something that was going on because I, I do think it's odd that if your fiance dies in such a tragic way. I am someone who has been through something like that. I had my fiance killed when I was engaged. And you know, I mean, moving on that quick in such a way is, is hard, you know. And so, and, and if you do do it, there are reasons that you do it. Do you know what I mean? So I, I just would like to know when he met this woman. I would like to know what this woman thinks. And I would think that he would be more public about losing this woman who was supposed to be the love of his life, you know?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, I, I guess there are a couple of. Couple things that kind of point toward what Sam thinks about these things. Because you're right, he's never made a statement publicly. He's made his two police statements that I know of. And that's, that's it. Number one is in a, in a very threatening and intimidating letter that I received from his parents lawyer. The lawyer said that they have maintained a respectful silence all these years. Okay. I don't think there's anything respectful about anything that they've done, but that's what they're claiming. Hey, out of respect for Ellen, we are remaining silent on all these things. Number two, Sam's wife, who I don't think we need to name here because I think she's in, she's probably innocent in all this, right? But she had an article written about her. She's kind of a socialite kind of person in New York City. And she had an article written about her and kind of this mom publication about her, her kids and her daily life and what life is like. And she mentioned Sam in that article about, you know, being the support, her support and the love of her life and all that stuff. As soon as Ellen's case started getting a Lot of attention. And people started finding where he was and who he's married to, which I. I don't condone. You know, don't go stock people or don't go dox people like that. That came down immediately. It's like, yeah, that that article was removed from the Internet. So, yeah, I think that. I think Sam is pretty content. Well, the evidence indicates to me that Sam is content just having no light shone on him from anywhere.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Which to me is also odd because if there's nothing fishy there, you would want. And the fact that he knows people think that it. So you would. You would think he would want to talk about it and say how upset he is by the allegations because it was someone he loved and it was so devastating to witness the end of her life like that. I mean, that would seem very normal and empathetic to me and make him more human. Instead, it seems like he's just. He's living another life and wants nothing to do with it. And usually you're advised to not say anything if there could be things you're implicated in. You know what I mean?

[Gavin Fish]

Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I want to get to the reason why we all think this has been brought up recently. And I think there was a light shone on it again when Josh Shapiro was up for possibly being the Vice President nominee or whatever recently, and then he wasn't. And people were kind of curious why everyone thought he was a number one pick. And then there were some reasons that he wasn't. Some reason. There were a few that came out that you saw in mainstream media, but then kind of behind the scenes, you heard it might have been because this case, he, at the time was the acting. He was the Attorney General at the time. Correct.

[Gavin Fish]

Let's see when Ellen died. No, he was a. He was a member of the. The House, if I remember correctly. I. I don't know the timeline here of when he was elected and so forth, but eventually the case made it to the Attorney General's office, and when it did make it to the Attorney General's office, he was the Attorney General.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. And he ended up. And I went to the Attorney General's office to look at whether or not it was a homicide or a suicide. Correct?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, it was. It was kind of a weird. It's kind of weird how this happened that the Greenbergs had an attorney that was helping them to try to get justice for Ellen, and he was eventually elected as the Philadelphia District Attorney. Once he was elected as the da, he could not look at the case anymore. He had a conflict of interest. So he, as required by law, referred it to the AG's office where Josh Shapiro was at the time. He's now our governor. But, yeah, that's how it got there. And basically they were supposed to look at it and. And see, hey, is this a homicide or is this a suicide? Because Ellen's parents were. Were kind of pressuring them to do that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. And he. He, in fact, said he agreed with the suicide ruling.

[Gavin Fish]

His office. Yeah. Said that they agreed with the suicide ruling.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So to this day, have we ever heard from Josh himself on this or just his office that's made a comment?

[Gavin Fish]

Just his office, yeah. And his. See, the thing about Josh Shapiro, Josh Shapiro's connection to this case was made by a viewer of mine who anonymously tipped me off, saying, you know, Josh Shapiro has known Sam Goldberg's family for 30 years. He went to school with her, with his cousin. And. And so I started doing some research on that. And when I finally published the results of my research that I think I published it on a Tuesday, that Friday, very quietly, through one local news reporter, an awesome reporter, Annie McCormick, released a statement saying, there is no conflict of interest here, but because there's an appearance of a conflict, we're going to go ahead and. And kick the case out. So that's how that happened.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, my goodness. Okay. So. All right. In recent news, we have found out that the Supreme Court has. Has ruled that they will take a look at this case again. Is that correct?

[Gavin Fish]

That's correct.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So now what does that actually mean for the parents? They must be ecstatic over this.

[Gavin Fish]

They're pretty excited, for sure. They didn't think that they would get this far. This is what's happening in the case. There are three things happening.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay.

[Gavin Fish]

First thing is that the Attorney General kicked the case out. It is now in the Chester County DA's office. The Chester County DA is supposedly investigating to see if they believe that this is a homicide. So that's number one. Number two is the. Josh and Sandy Greenberg filed a lawsuit against the Medical Examiner's office, asking the court to force the medical Examiner's office to change the manner of death from suicide to either homicide or undetermined. That mechanism is called mandamus, and it is a very high bar to reach. But courts do have that power. They can say in cases where an official acted egregiously or arbitrarily, they can force that official to act properly. But when they filed that lawsuit, the city of Philadelphia appealed to the appellate court, saying, we don't think Josh and Sandy have standing to even bring this case. They. They weren't injured. That, that's what their claim. Josh and Sandy weren't injured here. Ellen was injured. Josh and Sandy had no injuries.

[Rachel Yukatel]

That common sense that if, if somebody's dead, they would have to have someone represent them.

[Gavin Fish]

Right. So the appellate court in a two to one decision says we agree with the city. They don't have standing, however. And it was like, it was like a 33 page opinion. The first half a page was they don't have standing. But now let me tell you everything about the case. So that the Supreme Court might take a look at this is kind of what it said. So Josh and Sandy appealed that loss to the state Supreme Court and the state Supremes decided to take a look at it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Amazing. So what's the timeline with this now?

[Gavin Fish]

I think written briefs from Josh and Sandy's side are due in the beginning of October. I have not seen on the docket any deadline for the city's briefs to be filed. I don't know, but I would imagine this is at least a year, maybe a year and a half before this actually gets to a decision.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And the decision would be whether or not it can go to trial. What would the decision actually be?

[Gavin Fish]

The decision would be whether or not Josh and Sandy have standing to bring the case. If they do, then it goes all the way back down to the court where they started and they're at the very beginning of that case. So then it would just grind its way through that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Meaning then they can file something against Sam. If they want to accuse him, then they could file something against the city or the state or whatever for, for not taking this seriously. What could they file? What could their case be?

[Gavin Fish]

Well, there would be. What it would do is it would. It would go back to, hey, we want mandamus and declaratory relief here. We want you, Mr. Judge, to force Dr. Osborne to say this was not a suicide. That's all it will do then. Now, the third thing that the Greenbergs are doing kind of in series and all this is they have a. Another lawsuit where they are alleging that the city and the medical examiner's office endeavored to cover up a murder. And so that one is going through the courts right now. And what they're hoping is if they can, if they can have success there, then it might reset the statute of limitations where they can bring a civil complaint against somebody who they think may have taken their daughter's life. It also might reset the statutes of limitations for wrongful death and things like that. That.

[Rachel Yukatel]

What, what are the statute of limitations?

[Gavin Fish]

I think the statute in Pennsylvania is two years. It might be three years.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Oh, wow. So, but, but if it, if it reverses itself and it says it's now a homicide, then can't the police department get involved again? And then, yes, they can bring him in and if there's enough evidence, they can arrest him. Correct?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah. If, if indeed he becomes their suspect, that's what could happen. If, if, See official. Well, not officially. Officially, if a medical examiner says this is a suicide, the police can say, well, he can kick rocks. I think this is a homicide. I'm going to invest it as a homicide. Investigated homicide. They could do that. But when you get to court, the defense attorneys would be like, how can you even be saying this is a homicide? The medical examiner's office says it's suicide. So effectively, when the medical examiner's office makes that ruling, the case is done. No prosecutor is going to take it. So if it now is called a homicide, then maybe the police will, Police will go, okay, we've, we've got a suspect here. And then maybe prosecutors would say, I think that I can, I think I can prosecute this case.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And I know I asked you this off air before, but as a parent, if something happened to my child, I would be going all over the place trying to get an understanding of what happened. Forget in the court, in the court of public opinion and anything, I would just need to know. So I'm curious and I know you're friendly with the parents. Have they gone to the medical examiner and said, you have to explain this to me. I don't get it. I need to understand why you ruled that it was a suicide. Have they gone to Sam, who was going to be their son in law, and said, you have to explain to me how this happened and why you, we shouldn't think that it's you. Have they had those conversations?

[Gavin Fish]

So I can't speak for them, but there are a couple things on the record that I, I could say they did go and they did go and meet with a chief medical examiner, a guy named Sam Gulino. He was, he was the assistant medical examiner, Marlon Osborne's boss. It was, it had been sometime between Ellen's death and the time that they talked with Dr. Galino. Dr. Galino did talk to them and said that he was going to open up the case and, and see if Dr. Osborne came to the wrong conclusion. Now what he said under, under deposition recently was as soon as Josh and Sandy filed Their first lawsuit, he stopped. He's like, nope, they filed a lawsuit. I'm not going to look into this anymore. So I think that's, I think that's crap personally.

[Rachel Yukatel]

But.

[Gavin Fish]

And then as far as talking with Sam, Josh and Sandy have said publicly that in the year or so after Ellen's death, Sam would call and they would have chats and they would be, you know, polite and they would be gracious and Sam would tell them about the things that he's doing. And then at the end of every conversation they would say, you know, Sam, we know Ellen wasn't murdered. And then there would be an awkward silence and the phone call would end. Right. So no, they have, to my knowledge, they have not.

[Rachel Yukatel]

You mean they would say, we know she didn't commit suicide? Yeah, yeah, yeah, very interesting. Okay. And what do you think is going to happen with this journal? Do they need to file papers to, to be able to get the journal back? I mean, can't their lawyer say that they need this journal to be able to have a case?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, so they, Josh and Sandy's lawyers have gotten farther or further than anybody else has ever done anywhere in the nation that I can find on this kind of case. I think Josh and Sandy hear from lawyers all the time. You're wasting your time and money. But here they are about to go to the state Supreme Court on a very important precedent setting case. So they're, I think they're pleased with what they've done. Their attorneys, a guy named Joe Pedraza and his partner William Trask. These guys are very good. They, they got a judge. When was that? I think that was last maybe September, October, to agree in this latest lawsuit to discovery. And that is how they've gotten all these, all this stuff lately.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay.

[Gavin Fish]

So I would imagine that, that Joe and Will are trying to get other stuff that they're trying to get. For example, one of the things that they earned the right through a judge to get was the knife that was in Ellen's chest was never tested for fingerprints, never tested for DNA, never tested for any of that. And a judge signed off on getting that done. Right. So it's just one step at a time. They are grinding their way through this, but I would, I would imagine they'll probably eventually get that journal.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow, that's shocking to hear that the, that the knife was never tested. I also read that there was an issue where a couple days later the police allowed somebody who was very influential in Sam's family. Remind me, was he a lawyer? I forget. But Anyways, the cousin, the uncle. Oh, the judge. Okay. So the judge came into the house. We're talking about the same situation with his son, which was the cousin or whatever. And they took two computers. They took. They said they didn't take a purse, but there was things that they were accused of taking. And the excuse was they took two computers because Sam needed his computer. They didn't know which computer was what, and then they ended up giving it to the police. Police. I'm curious if the police tested it to see if anything was removed off of it. I'm, like, just so curious about why they were allowed to do certain things, yet the parents weren't allowed to go in and. And get the journal. And by the way, when was the journal taken?

[Gavin Fish]

It was. Well, that's a good question. It probably would have been taken on the 28th or 29th. So what happened here is the. The timeline is pretty important. The 26th is when Ellen died.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay.

[Gavin Fish]

The 27th is when Ellen's autopsy was performed. And Marlon Osborne goes, you've got a homicide here. So the police are scrambling, going, we need to get a search warrant, because we've released the crime scene. So they get a search warrant. They don't get to back to the apartment until the 28th. Meanwhile, on the 27th, Sam Goldberg's family calls the apartment and says, we need to get access to the apartment to get a suit for Sam to wear to the funeral. Remember, everybody involved in this is Jewish. Ellen was going to have her funeral quick, right. According to their custom. Right, right. So he's like, we need a suit. We need to get back into the. Into the apartment for a suit. Which, by the way, is, again, crap. These are wealthy. Go buy a suit.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

You know, but so the. The apartment manager calls the police and says, hey, can I let them in? And the police say, yeah, there's no crime there. And she asks, well, what do we do as far like, it's still bloody and everything in there? And so the police gave her the number for a professional crime scene cleanup company. She provides that number to Sam Goldberg's family, who have to pay for it, and they get that place cleaned lickety split. That day, professional crime scene cleanup was in there cleaning.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow.

[Gavin Fish]

Once it's clean, they go in, they grab Sam's suit. They also grab Ellen's phone, two of Ellen's laptops, her purse, a bunch of other stuff. And then the following day, police come in with the search warrant and go, what happened here? Everything's clean in here. Well, you guys Told us we could clean it up and. And then, you know, where are her digital. You know, where's her computer? Where's her phone? Oh, Judge Schwarzman has them. So the next day they have to go to Judge Schwarzman's and. And get that stuff. So they didn't have any of that stuff for the first. Well, it was the third day that they finally got her laptop and stuff.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So I guess the occasion.

[Gavin Fish]

They searched it. There's no indication they searched anything on her laptop or phone.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Okay, so those are the questions going forward. You know, like, what was searched on the phone? Was there or will there be in the future? And if so, was there anything that was deleted or gotten rid of in general, especially on her phone? The same thing with her journal. When did the police take it? Did Sam's family or anyone get to see it before to see if there was anything incriminating on it? And then they decided to give it up when they saw that there wasn't? I don't know. Those would be the questions that I had. And also, when did they get. Get the knife? You know, listen, if you're going to stab somebody, you probably are smart enough to, you know, use gloves or whatever. But he lived in the apartment, so his fingerprints on it are not uncommon or DNA on it. So, you know, again, I'm not in forensics. I'm just thinking.

[Gavin Fish]

So all it was a kitchen knife. It was like a cutco, you know, just kitchen knife. So it would. It would stand to reason that his DNA and his fingerprints would be on it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

It. Of course.

[Gavin Fish]

In fact, I would be more suspicious if they're not on it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, that's the whole point. Because if it's been completely. That's why I asked if he had blood on him. Because the only reason you. You clean up blood is because you don't want anyone to think that you are around it. But he should have had blood on him. If I walked into my house and my fiance was on the floor dead and bloody, I would run over to them and be like, you know, are you still, you know, shake them and touch them, whatever. So you don't stand back and say, oh, I don't want anything to do with this. The last thing that I want to bring up that we haven't talked about yet is 911 was not Sam's first call. The first call was to this judge guy, sort of.

[Gavin Fish]

It was to his cousin. Came in, came in Schwartzman, who is also a lawyer and Judge Schwarzman's son. The he he called, came in, he talked to him for a little while, and then there were a couple of calls that he missed from Judge Schwartzman. He then took a call from Judge Schwarzman, and then it was only after that call that he called 91 1. Now, according to the letter that I got from the attorney that they. They didn't like my reporting. And so I got a. A letter from the attorney. They admit that Sam. That they spoke to Sam, but it was not. And it. But he was still outside the. The apartment. He was locked out of the apartment when they talked. And they said that they were on the phone with him when he broke down the door and saw Ellen there and then said, you need to call 91 1.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, that sounds even more suspicious. What is he calling lawyers for if he doesn't. If he just is trying to get in his apartment and his. What, and his fiance could be in the shower or sleep? Yeah.

[Gavin Fish]

Why are you calling your cousin? It's a nor'. Easter. They live across the city. Are you asking them to help you get into your apartment? Come on. That's just dumb. And it just doesn't hold water to me. The. The whole. We heard Sam scream out, cry out when he saw Ellen on the floor and told him to call 91 1. Now, I mean, when we look at the lock. Evidence, when we look at the evidence of her body being moved, there being kind of a cleanup. No, I, I don't buy that explanation at all. And I think it was really unwise of them to even say that in that letter. I, I thought that was the worst lawyering.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Gavin Fish]

We've ever seen.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Absolutely. All right, so now that this case is getting a lot of attention, I mean, it's been on News Nation. I mean, it's been everywhere. But people are really taking an interest in it and want to bring it to light. Is there any way that it can move forward? That if somebody with a lot of power says, wait a minute, especially in Philadelphia, Josh Shapiro or, you know, anyone says, wait a minute, we really have to look at this more closely. I'm interested in it. Even somebody in the police department, or do we now have to go through this Supreme Court to listen to what they say?

[Gavin Fish]

No. Wow. That is a good question. Nobody asked, Nobody asks the right questions in this case. That was a really good question. Yeah. There is something that can be done right now by somebody who has power, and that is the Chester county da. The Chester County DA has the. Has the file. Has the entire file.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And, and should somebody could reopen this if they so choose. We don't have to wait for the Supreme Court to make a ruling a year from now.

[Gavin Fish]

Now, no, they could do that right now. But what happened was when the case was referred out of the AG's office and referred back down to D.A. krasner in Philadelphia, law required him to. To kick it somewhere else. Right. He still had that conflict of interest. He chosen anywhere. He could have chosen, like Clarion county or Erie county or any. He could have chosen anywhere, but he chose his next door neighbor who was a D A named Deb Ryan, who was running for a judgeship. She had political ambitions, so she. It was referred to a person with political ambitions who was raised in the same area, went to the same synagogue as Sam Goldberg's family. Like, there's so many connections to it. She was elected as a Commonwealth judge, and now there's a new da, Brian. I can't remember his name right now, but ever since he's taken office, there's just been crickets out of the Chester County's DA's office. So, yeah, there it sits, just languishing until somebody powerful enough can get him to. To do something.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. All right, well, this is very interesting. Hopefully all the new, you know, attention to this case will not go away. People will still keep asking questions and put pressure on someone to. That has some influence to reopen this case. That would be amazing. Anything else that I'm missing that. That we should talk about before I let you go?

[Gavin Fish]

No, I think we covered it pretty well. Thanks.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Of course. Well, thank you so much. I hope that you come back when there is more to it. But anyone that has more questions, tell them how they can go and find out. You're covering this every week, right? You. You. You talked about it.

[Gavin Fish]

I cover it a lot, man. So. So yeah, you can find me on my website, gavinfish.com or on YouTube @gavin fish. Just. It's very easy to find me everywhere.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Awesome. And do you read your dms? Like, if people have questions, if people have suggestions, where can they reach you?

[Gavin Fish]

Yeah, if you go to my website, gavinfish.com there's a contact page there. You can. You can even reach out to me anonymously, and it's actually anonymous. And that is how a lot of this stuff has kind of moved along. I've had viewers that anonymously reach out to me. But yeah, if you're on Twitter, you're on Instagram, you can DM me. And I take a look at all that, too.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Well, and I hope at some point this pressure is going to make some people that are associated with this have to make a statement, whether it be Sam, whether it be Josh Shapiro. I mean, I'm really interested how they can come up with this idea that suicide is the right answer. It just seems far fetched. And if it is the answer, you would think that they would want to be more transparent about it and say, but guys, this is why we came up with this, this reasoning. And let me explain it to you so you really get it, you know what I'm saying? It just seems like that would be the way that they would handle it as opposed to just being silent. Because all that does, in the absence of some acknowledgment, people just come up with a bunch of other ideas. You know.

[Gavin Fish]

That's right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah. Another quick question. Are you covering any other cases that we should be following with you?

[Gavin Fish]

You know, yes, there are several cases in that that bear the same kind of hallmarks that Ellen's case have. I hate corruption. I just, I freaking hate corruption. And anytime somebody was obviously murdered and somebody is able to make it go away, that bothers me. So there's a case in Minnesota right now where a young man like had oil poured on him and he was lit aflame. He died by being burned to death. And they called it a suicide. But the crime scene photos seem to indicate that there was foul play there. So his name is David Elmquist. There's a case in New York state where a young woman who was a heroin addict and she was a sex worker was murdered and shoved into a garbage can and frozen solid in the New York winter. And the Emmy's office called it an overdose, though she had no metabolites of any drug in her system. Wow. There are, there are a lot of cases. If you go to my website, there are so many cases that I care about. I'd love to talk to them sometime.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Amazing. So we're going to take a look at that. I'm sure we're going to have you back on to talk about a couple of these. I really appreciate you. We'll stay in touch.

[Gavin Fish]

Thank you very much. I look forward to it.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host Rachel Ukatelle. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstood with Rachel, you could tell. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email [e-mail] that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much, and I'll see you next time.