Documenting ICE Agents & Detention Centers | Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Documenting ICE Agents & Detention Centers

Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Guests: Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz
Date: January 28, 2026

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Overview

In this powerful episode, Rachel Uchitel hosts documentary filmmakers and photojournalists Christina Clusiau and Shaul Schwarz, co-directors of the Netflix series Immigration Nation. The conversation explores their approach to capturing immigration enforcement in America, their personal experiences documenting ICE operations and detention centers, and the deeply human toll of U.S. immigration policy. They offer unparalleled insight into the complexities of the system, the often arbitrary bureaucracy, and the misconceptions that dominate public debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Journey into Documentary Filmmaking

• Background: Both Christina and Shaul come from print journalism and photography. They met through the Time magazine community.
• Partnership: They realized that documentary filmmaking requires a team effort, which led to the formation of their production company.
  • “This is unlike still photography. This is a team effort. Can we actually live and play under the same roof?” — Shaul (04:25)
• First Projects: Early work focused on shorts for publications, paving the way for feature-length docs and series.
• Their Style: They gravitate toward controversial subjects, seeking access that provides complexity, aiming to ask questions, not give simple answers.

2. Genesis of 'Immigration Nation'

• Origins: Stemmed from Shaul’s earlier work documenting the Mexican/American drug war and building relationships with ICE personnel that led to unprecedented access.
• Pitching the Series: Initially, ICE was reluctant, but climate shifted with the Trump administration and the national debate over immigration intensified.
• Access:
  • “We had amazing access—almost in some parts you can’t believe they’re filming this.” — Rachel (16:49)
  • Their access included agents, detention centers, and the lives of detainees and families.

3. The Numbers Game & Internal ICE Culture

• Quotas Pressure: Agents often pressured to meet numbers, even when not logistically supported.
  • “Your boss might say this one day and the next day he’s like, I don’t have space for anybody... That is this kind of weird, sad, depressing thing in this system.” — Shaul (22:10)
• Collateral Arrests: Even when targeting those with criminal backgrounds, “collateral” detentions occur, sweeping in others caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

4. Detention Center Realities

• Process: Detained individuals may languish from days to years, sometimes arbitrarily, due to backlog or inability to deport them.
• Treatment: Generally humane on a day-to-day level, but systemically inhumane due to policies and arbitrary separations.
  • “Yes, maybe they are being treated humanely in the way they’re being held, but I could argue that’s a complicated humane question.” — Shaul (31:29)
• Chaos of Child Separation Policy:
  • Policies were abruptly implemented, leading to chaos, lost children, desperation, and trauma.
  • “There was immediate frustration...nobody at the detention center, even the head, knew anything. They heard it in the news.” — Shaul (33:10)
  • “The trauma was unbelievable. You get lost in this and you forget the people.” — Shaul (34:59)

5. Human Impact: Personal Stories and Trauma

• Berta’s story: 63-year-old asylum seeker, detained for over a year, eventually deported despite a clear, legitimate claim.
  • “I just felt like they detained my grandma who actually ran from life.” — Shaul (39:59)
• Deborah’s story: Ugandan refugee acid-attack survivor who fought to be reunited with her children, demonstrating both the cruel delays and resilience in the system.
  • “She fought and she never gave up. That was really a small light in a lot of dark.” — Christina (52:40)

6. Journalistic Ethics & Emotional Toll

• The line between witnessing and intervening as journalists.
  • “Emotionally you have to separate it and deal with the emotional side later, because you are there to witness and document...We tried to keep that line.” — Christina (44:37)

7. The Broken System & Policy Reflections

• Systemic Failure: All three agree the immigration system is fundamentally broken, a victim of decades of political gridlock.
• Enforcement Alone Is Not the Answer:
  • Emphasizes need for legal pathways, realistic programs, and addressing root causes rather than “hammer” enforcement alone.
  • “If you don’t allow people to do it the right way, especially the more common workers...they’re going to do it the wrong way and we’re gonna have a problem.” — Shaul (56:52)
• Polarization: The issue is so emotionally charged that rational discussion is rare.
  • “We agree on most of this and there is common sense on most, but because it’s such a hot cake, we haven’t been able to have the right and the left in Congress since ’96.” — Shaul (64:34)

8. Media Portrayal of Immigration

• Misconceptions: Media is often blamed, but the problem is the public’s unwillingness to digest complexity.
  • “I don’t think we want to hear or digest it really. And because it does get complicated...” — Shaul (66:52)
• Fear and Demonization: Current rhetoric demonizes immigrants and installs fear, exacerbating division.

9. Looking Ahead: Will There Be a Sequel?

• Initially resisted, but recent experiences and ongoing crises may draw them back to immigration storytelling.
  • “We would want to focus on actual legal immigration, not lumping it all together. Something burns inside us.” — Shaul (72:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Seeing the Human Behind the Headline

  • “We get lost in this and you forget the people...there is outcome, and there are people you see and that one was definitely painful.” — Shaul (35:16)

• On the Emotional Toll and Detachment

  • “You have to just witness...as journalists need to just document. And...no matter how hard it was, we tried to keep that line.” — Christina (44:37)

• On Systemic Brokenness

  • “I’ve never met someone who knows the system—as right wing or as left wing as they got—that didn’t think the system is broken. Not one.” — Shaul (64:49)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Origins & Early Career – 03:04–07:36
• The Making of 'Immigration Nation' & ICE Access – 09:30–16:49
• Numbers Game/ICE Quotas – 20:22–24:22
• Detention Center Processes & Arbitrary Detainment – 24:39–29:49
• Treatment & Human Rights Question – 30:41–32:02
• Family Separation & Trauma – 32:27–36:00
• Personal Stories (Berta, Deborah) – 38:35–52:46
• On Policy Reform & Systemic Solutions – 52:58–61:22
• Challenges with Media Coverage – 64:49–66:53
• Future Projects & Emotional Aftermath – 70:06–75:44

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Tone

The conversation is intimate, candid, and passionate—sometimes heavy, always searching for understanding. Rachel keeps the guests focused on the human impact while allowing their lived experiences to drive honest, nuanced debate.

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Summary Takeaways

• The U.S. immigration system is deeply complex, often arbitrary, and harmful in its current incarnation; reform is overdue.
• The human cost—trauma, family separation, indefinite limbo—is profound.
• Public understanding is clouded by emotionally charged rhetoric and lack of nuanced coverage.
• Documentarians like Shaul and Christina see their role as shining light on the overlooked human beings behind the headlines, asking the tough questions, and holding space for empathy amid controversy.

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Recommended Viewing:
Immigration Nation is streaming on Netflix.

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Contact:

• [Google Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz for more]
• They are open to hearing new stories and perspectives, especially regarding immigration.

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Transcript

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[Shaul Schwartz]

This is not going to be easy.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Let's talk about Immigration Nation. How did that come about?

[Shaul Schwartz]

I made friends in ICE and they really loved that I'd come off spending time on the Mexican side. Trump's election was somewhat of a surprise. Immigration was a hot potato and suddenly ICE became the boogeyman. I don't care what you do, but bring at least two people in. Your boss might say this one day and the day he's like, I don't have space for anybody.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sometimes the kids were completely separated from any parent and then it wasn't being recorded properly. So they ultimately became lost. Whatever happened with that? And was it really like that?

[Christina Clouseau]

It was really hard for our journalists. You are behind the camera because you are there to witness this.

[Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel]

Welcome back to Misunderstood. I'm your host Rachel Yukatel.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So we have heard a lot about.

[Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel]

Immigration in the last couple weeks now that Trump has taken office again and I wanted to have two people on that I know know more about this subject than anyone I can possibly imagine speaking to my friends. Shaul Schwartz and his wife, Christina Clouseau are award winning documentary filmmakers and photojournalists. Together they co directed the Netflix series Immigration Nation, which provides a detailed and often unsettling look at the immigration system. The series offers rare access to ICE operations, the experiences of immigrants, and the broader consequences of immigration policies. Shaul and Christina are known for their raw and unflinching storytelling, often focusing on complex and controversial topics like wildlife conservation as seen in Trophy and now immigration. Their work aims to provoke discussion and shed light on issues often misunderstood or overlooked. This interview is a powerful opportunity to explore the evolving challenges in immigration today. Please enjoy my conversation with Shaul and Christina.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Shaol and Christina, I'm so happy to see you guys again. Thank you for joining me on Misunderstood. Thanks for having so guys, I have so much to talk to you about about immigration because I feel like you have been on the inside and know all about the stuff we've been hearing all about it through the media. But I think it's really important to hear from you guys. But before we get to that, I find you guys fascinating as individuals and as a couple. So can you start by telling our listeners and viewers how you got into filmmaking and how you guys also met?

[Shaul Schwartz]

You want to start?

[Christina Clouseau]

No, go ahead. You have a longer history.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Well, we. We're both coming from print journalism and photography. Both are photographers, essentially. We met through that community. I was working as a freelance photographer a lot for Time magazine. Christina was a photo editor there. But even before then, we just knew each other from that community. And back in 2013, I was starting to switch towards documentary filming. And, yeah, me and Christina kind of met. She was dating someone I knew, and then she wasn't dating him anymore. And I kind of became free. And we clicked. And pretty quickly after.

[Christina Clouseau]

I.

[Shaul Schwartz]

As my film, my first film, Narcole Tour, got made, Christina and I kind of looked at each other and said, this is unlike still photography. This is a team effort. Can we. Can we actually live and play on the same roof? And it was exciting and scary, and we gave it a shot and opened a production company and has done a lot. It's been a crazy roller coaster ever since.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Is that your same version, Christina?

[Christina Clouseau]

Pretty much. I mean, I. I was in print journalism before, and I studied photography, and then I decided to go into working at Time magazine for a number of years. And that's where I met Shoel. And he kind of pulled me over. I think at that point I was like, okay, I'm ready to leave New York unless I can actually be more in the field and work more creatively. And he pulled me over to the film side and said, let's work together, and started back. I think 214 is when we opened the first office.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. So what were some of the first projects you had pitched or even that came to fruition? What were you guys working on?

[Christina Clouseau]

We did a lot of shorts, short documentaries. We did a lot of short content mainly for magazines online. So Time or New Yorker or else.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Did we work with Nat Geo. Basically, it was this time that the Internet was flourishing, actually, and video cameras kind of like, were making it more easy for people like us who are in the field to create shorts. So we are, like, just excited by that opportunity of kind of being the voice as well. And for a while, we kind of like. And our clients wore these online publications, the magazines and the newspapers. And it's actually one of those projects that ended up leading in a weird way to immigration Nation and. But yeah, as I'd say of 2017, we started making films that are feature Len films and shows. And ever since then we've made, let's see, three feature. Yeah, we've made a couple of feature Lynn films and two shows.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And how do you pitch your. How do you come up with your topics? Is it something that you guys pitch or a network comes to you and says, we want you guys to give this a shot?

[Christina Clouseau]

It's a little bit of both. Our first documentary that we worked on together, that we directed together is called Trophy. That was back in 2017. That's an idea that we came up with and found independent financing and was able to create it and then sell it through festivals.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And what was, what was Trophy about? For people that are listening, Trophy is.

[Christina Clouseau]

About big game hunting. Looking at it from a very economical standpoint. And so it brings a bunch of characters, both on the hunting side and the non hunting side together to kind of have a very interesting approach. We, A lot of our work deals with, you know, subjects that maybe the, the viewer thinks they know about and then we try and flip it on their head.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Christina Clouseau]

So we never really want to provide answers, but instead ask a lot of questions.

[Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So was this a topic that really interested you or how did you even come up with?

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yeah, it started with an argument at our kitchen because I didn't grow up hunting, I grew up in Israel. Christina grew up in northern Minnesota. And I was just flipping on a phone, I think, and I saw a picture of some lady posing with a giraffe she just shot. And I was like, oh, you know, just cursing at her. And Christina kind of giggled and she said, yeah, what? Like, so what? Just another big game hunter. And we got into an argument and I was like. And I think her caption read something to the essence of helping conserve. And I was like, how can you kill something and conserve it, lady? What the you're full of shit kind of thing? And that argument and the raw feelings, but also the fact that the idea of conservation and hunting that was. I was not familiar with, that was a perfect, top, perfect entry segue for us. Because, yeah, like Christina said, that's what we like. We kind of like to take issues that are controversial, that people think they know stuff about. Get extraordinary good access. That's our must. We don't do anything that we don't feel like we've really got there.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And then not answer, but create an argument, let people say, oh, my God, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Am I close minded? Am I open minded? And many times we're conflicted about the subjects we do. I think that was the case in immigration. You know, there has. As we developed, there has been shows. You know, we came off doing a Shaun White show, and we just did a show about BASE jumping, which I'd say brought some of that style, but not all of it. But when it's in the social, political kind of aspects, we do really kind of like to poke questions and bring you closer so you take your own decision.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. So let's talk about Immigration Nation. How did you. How did that come about?

[Shaul Schwartz]

It actually came out very. In those early days when we were working for Time, I pitched a video project I was working. My first movie was called Narco Cultura. It was about the drug war in Mexico. And really what I like to say, the Mexican American drug war, because that whole thing is entangled in each other, right? The money and drugs come up, the weapons go down, and the border is open and we go across. And that movie broke and it released in Sundance. And people took notice to the fact that I'm willing to take a lot of risk as a conflict photographer and be in this zone. And through that, I'd met an ICE spokesman in Arizona who I asked about doing something, you know, ICE is more famous for the. What is called ero, the side Enforcement Removal Operation is the acronym. That's what people associate ICE with.

[Christina Clouseau]

Okay.

[Shaul Schwartz]

It also has a side of the house called hsi, Homeland Security Investigation. HSI in layman's term is really more like a special, almost FBI. They deal with anything that crosses the border illegally. But it's really a lot of drugs. It could be anything that's not paying customs. It could be stolen art. A lot of drugs, though, are. I mean, and human smuggling and human trafficking. So I'd met the spokesman and really I was very much in the drug world and being in Kulia Khan and embedding was the Sinaloa cartel. And. And I. I'd never done it from the US side, meaning was US Special forces such as HSI or dea. And to my surprise, he kind of said, yes, that is a side that ICE has always traditionally been a little bit more open about. I'd say it's a little less controversial. And Time magazine commissioned me to do a piece and it was pretty extraordinary access. And in that couple of days that I spent in Arizona, we ended up. We. They. I ended up documenting, busting some cells of the Sinaloa cartel, moving drugs into the country and the operation kind of grew because of the intelligence they had gathered. And so six months later I came back and we had this extraordinary story. And in fact, the access was so extraordinary that TIME didn't publish it. They were worried about the fact that I was in different houses and how things are done. And I was really bummed. And I actually thought that ICE would be pretty upset with me because they'd spend time and energy and it really wasn't my fault. We cut together a beautiful short film.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sure.

[Shaul Schwartz]

But the short of it is they actually, I made friends in ice and they really loved that the people in the field. Really, really. Because they were so in the drug world and knew that I'd come off spending time on the Mexican side, had a lot of respect and I had a lot of respect for the people I met. And it was kind of surprising how much of a friendship. And then I asked the spokesman if me and Christina could actually do the more known side of ice. Immigration. Now, keep in mind, this is Obama days. This is when most of the Republican Party is thinking, how do we change our stance on immigration? The youth is growing. We should be more tolerant. We're going to lose elections because of this. It's a very different time. The country is staying substantially. And basically the answer from ICE was no. This doesn't make sense. This is a hot potato. You guys are hard hitting journalists. Giving you good access would just be too controversial.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Sure.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Nobody is, nobody is really complaining enough. And then fast forward, me and Christina are sitting in Sundance was our film trophy. Trump has been elected and we're brainstorming what's next in this like endless thing of like when you create something and it comes out and you say you'll never do it again, I don't want the pain. And here you are wanting in it again. And we suddenly thought maybe we should go back to ice because in the Obama days they didn't have a lot of heat, but it was clear that they would get some heat. And they did know us. And we were becoming a wholesale name and had relationships at this point was major buyers. And we did. And that's kind of how Immigration Nation got off to a start.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So did you pitch the idea first to Netflix or you created the entire project and then they bought it. How does that work?

[Christina Clouseau]

We started, it's called development. So we actually found independent financing to spend six months developing the project. And in terms of development, you shoot for a while, you edit a sizzle reel or a string out and you put together a pitch deck. And then you go and pitch networks and so in this case, we brought it to Netflix.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yeah, we brought it to Netflix and it kind of happened organically, but we were definitely in and had the access while.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So it wasn't hard to get somebody on board. They were like, they saw it, they got it. They're like, let's do this.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yes. You know, again, looking back, of course it was hard and a lot of work and editing and stuff, but there was excitement about the project because of the access and I think our credibility from the get go.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right, so what do you think changed about ICE wanting to give you the access at this point? They. From before, when they were like, absolutely not. This is a hot potato to. Yeah, I want you in there embedded and so you can see everything that's going on.

[Shaul Schwartz]

You mean in 218. Why did they suddenly. Yeah, because there was. They were taking a lot of heat. You know, Trump. Trump's election was somewhat of a surprise and immigration was a hot potato and suddenly ICE became the boogeyman.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And you know, that was our pitch to them. Look, we'll be fair. And this is a complicated issue. And.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And at this time, this was obviously when people were being deported, but was this the time when it became a huge issue where kids were being separated from their parents and put in cages or whatever? They.

[Shaul Schwartz]

That was a couple of months into already having a show and sold to Netflix. So the axis actually started getting negotiated as Trump. Yeah, in the early. It's been a couple of years. So an exact timeline, but it was before children's separation policy was signed into effect. We. When that happened, we were already a full throttle of production for Netflix.

[Rachel Yukatel]

And so you were in there, you could see all this.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yes.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Taking place.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Absolutely.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, so I want to get to that. So, like, let's just start with the access now, because if people have seen Immigration Nation, they will know, as you said, you had amazing access almost in some parts. You're like, I can't even believe they are filming this. This is incredible that they're there when some of this is happening, which is what makes it so great. And, you know, so, so talk to me about what that was. Like, where were you guys? How long did this take? Like, give me a little bit of the details of.

[Christina Clouseau]

Of what you had to go through. It was about a three year project in production and we kind of, at the beginning we were able to have. They allowed us to have a ton of access in the sense that we had different ideas of different storylines that we wanted to pursue around immigration, around ERO and hsi. And so with each one of those we were able to go to different locations and we kind of started mapping out across the country which sections of immigration represent which section of the country and how can we tell those stories through different angles. And the majority of it was going with ICE agents following their daily lives, following the different sects of enforcement, removalist operation. In New York we did a worked with a team called Fugitive Ops where they were the ones that were going out with warrants for individuals that were having criminal offenses. We also went to the non detained docket where it's those that are adjusting their immigration status are checking in on a daily, monthly, weekly basis, but they aren't being detained. And then in other parts of the country in El Paso we worked a lot with the detention center and on the border and in Wallace did we work in Ohio we worked with refugees. And so there was a number of different strategic places that we were looking at with relevant news stories. And so that was actually kind of how we structured the project. So we had, one side of us was we had the access to ICE and we follow their daily lives. And on the other side, what we started talking about early on is that the way that this is really going to be effective is to have an inside, outside perspective that you're on the inside with ice, but you have to understand the people's lives on the outside too. The families of those being detained, the cross cultural, the cross border, what is actually going on in their family's lives while they're being detained, and so on and so forth.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Christina Clouseau]

That was really kind of the idea or what.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So something that's interesting to me. There's one specific shot where it seems like you guys must be in the back seat and one of the ICE guys takes a phone call and it's on speakerphone and the guy says, okay, just bring in a, you have to come in with X amount of people today. I don't care what you do. This amount of people, this is when you turn on the tv. That's what they're talking about again now today that they have to bring in a thousand people a day, whatever it is. So. And he was like, I can't believe that he, he knows you guys are with me. I can't believe he would say that out loud. What are your thoughts on the fact that here we are again? You know, they've, they've made claims that they're only going after people who are a detriment, who are criminals. But is that what you found back then? I mean, it seemed like the people that you were following, a lot of them were, seem like law abiding, not citizens, but law abiding people. So what, what are your thoughts on all that?

[Shaul Schwartz]

It's a lot to break down in that question. Look, I'd call that the point. You're describing the numbers game. And let me back up. I think ICE agents are a mix of like any big agency, there's great people, there's less good people, and it's an opinion. Generally they do their job. And I was a soldier. And when soldiers train, they train for conflict, they train to do something, they train to get a mission. And they're excited to get that mission. That's why they're there. They want to play. I don't actually blame the soldier so much. That's how he's been programmed. And unless he really breaks the law and does something terrible. So I think it makes sense that yeah, people want to play the number jam. How many did I catch? Especially if the tone from kind of trickling down is that tone. You know, I think in fugitive ops, the people who do that in New York, that unit that you mentioned, there was a mix. There were people who kind of felt emboldened and definitely got excited by how many we can catch today. And maybe in my opinion, lost perspective of that. These are people. Now look, you could argue about the politics. Some people, mostly that unit in those times would try to go after people who are broken the law by coming in unlawfully, but have also create had a criminal offense, some more serious, some less serious, but they usually weren't like, you know, didn't stop at a stop sign. They were usually actually offenses. And I think that's not that controversial. If somebody, however, what happens if you walk into that house and encounter five other people?

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right, the collaterals.

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So, you know, and that just varied. And I think as we, we definitely saw as time went by, this many, many people getting swept into the number game. And I would say we saw some officers that weren't. Now, as environment changes and everybody wants to go into that number game. If you're that ICE officer or that lady that wants to just catch that criminal, not threaten his brother or his mother, do you get shit from the other guys? How does that, you know, and then the thing about immigration that people don't understand is everything is kind of complicated in this random thing. You might want to arrest a lot of people, but if you have nowhere to put them, for example, then your boss might say this one day, and the next day he's like, I don't have space for anybody. I'm actually going to let go of the people you caught yesterday because I can't deport that guy. That. That is this kind of weird, sad, depressing thing in this system. But per the number game, I definitely think that in the first Trump era, something changed. And I'm not in ICE now, but I can assume the emboldeness of like getting numbers is high.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And they are very bluntly saying that I don't really care. Yeah. First of all, let's get rid of the criminals. But if you are just in here unlegally, we should deport you. And if we catch you, I mean, seeing is believing. It's a hard thing to achieve. I also think like, we're see it's very early, but we're actually seeing them say at least, well, you might be here technically legally, like temporary protective status or. But that was illegal of the Biden administration to let you be here legally.

[Christina Clouseau]

So.

[Shaul Schwartz]

We'Re going to install some fear into here. Maybe we can take it now. Again, these things will get challenged in court and not. So we'll see how the numbers game go. Per agents. I sadly think that a lot of them did fall into losing a little bit perspective more and more and more. And I personally blamed them less than the tone that was set.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. No, I get it. So what is the process that you guys witnessed? They would take someone from their home, where would they go? And could they sit there for months until they got deported? I mean, we're hearing now that planes are being diverted and they're not taking the people back home. How does that work?

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah, usually when somebody is detained by ice, they're taken to a facility where they're processed, which is the local office, and then at that point, they're being held there for a couple days or a couple hours, and then they're being moved to detention center facility. Another situ in. In those detention facilities there. They can be there for a month, they can be there for a year. It all depends on how their status or not status is and where they are in the process of they have a pending court date or if they have a final order of removal. There's all these things that come into effect and that kind of affects how long they will stay or if they're willing to voluntarily depart. If they're going to fight their case, they may fight their case from in the detention center and others may eventually be released into the public with an ankle Bracelet or some sort of digital monitoring waiting for their court states. So there's a lot that goes into it. And I think each case is individually, each individual is an individual thing. But there's a lot of arbitrariness in it too. Sometimes because there isn't enough beds, they'll be release people just that they are going to keep for a long time. They'll just release them back into the public or they'll hurt them. And so it's, it's kind of. There's, I think there's a, a systematic thing that happens, but a lot of times it feels like it's. It's different.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[Shaul Schwartz]

The irony, sorry of detention centers are technically not jails. They look like one, they feel like one. Some, you know, you could argue who gets treated worse or better, but technically you're waiting a procedure you haven't been judged. You're either waiting for immigration court, you're waiting for an order of removal. And I can't stress enough how arbitrary that can be. It's just like detention centers have needs. Like if you're near the border where we had access to a detention center in El Paso, Texas. It just depends how many people got caught and who wants to release them today and what's can I bust 100 bodies that way? And that way it just becomes this kind of.

[Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. The new year doesn't require a new you, maybe just a less burdened you. I think a lot of us walk around carrying things we don't even realize we're holding onto. Fear, pressure, the need to be perfect, doubt about whether we're doing enough or being enough. And sometimes what really helps is having an unbiased perspective. Someone whose role is to help you better understand, understand your relationships, motivations and emotions so you can let go of what's weighing you down. BetterHelp makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. They work with fully licensed therapists in the US who follow a strict professional code of conduct. BetterHelp also does the matching work for you. You answer a short questionnaire and they help connect you with someone who fits your needs. And if your first match isn't quite right, you can switch to another therapist anytime. With over 30,000 therapists and more than 5 million people served globally, BetterHelp has an average RA A 4.9 out of 5 for live sessions, sign up and get 10% [e-mail] that's B E T T E R H E L P dot Com. And thanks for listening to Misunderstood with Rachel Yukatel.

[Shaul Schwartz]

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[Rachel Yukatel]

So it's not set up with like, beds and people to be there for a while. And a lot of it is.

[Shaul Schwartz]

It's limited. Right. Ice in general throughout. And it's mainly private contractors who actually do this. And it costs the taxpayer a ton of money, by the way, set up all this thing. But if you're, if you're catching hundreds of thousands of people a day in the border, you're going to run out of space extremely quickly. Which is why there's a thing called catch and release, something that the, you know, the administration hates. I can understand them in that, on that point. But you need an ability to process cases or to be able to deport people. For example, if everybody's crossing, if people are coming through the Mexican border, if they're Mexican, you could deport them back to Mexico. If they're from Venezuela, you can't deport them.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So things get kind of complicated. So if you run out of space, you know, this is one of the arguments of what will be, are we going to see mass. I mean, it's a charged word, but mass concentration camps kind of being built that are not permanent, jails that are not. Or permanent detention centers. Sorry, I don't know. You know, those are. But essentially those are very expensive. And beds are give or take. I think, at least when we were in the game, the capacity was at very, very top, close to 50,000 at any given day.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Wow.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Which is a lot of people, but the need is bigger. So that's where the idea of, like, okay, let's prioritize people who have committed serious offenses rather than, you know, Joe Schmo that right here. Or certainly, you know, he's, you know, there's a lot of, like, he's been here for 15 years and he's actually a program, but he didn't stop at a stop sign.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right, right. I mean, it's interesting because in the news you just hear about these numbers. So of course, people that are pro. All of this are like, oh, this is great. But they don't hear the part about, well, wait, where are they going? And there's this catch and release. If they don't have the spots and you Know, I'm curious about the, the treatment of these people when they're in these detention centers. Are they being treated humanely?

[Christina Clouseau]

Generally, what we saw? Yes. I mean, I think there's grays in all of it, but I think generally, at least from our experience in the specific detention center in El Paso. Yes.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Okay, well, that's good.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So. So I want to complicate that. I agree with Christina that the people we saw, for the most part, treat them very humanely. However, as I said at that point, they haven't committed most of them in offense. So it becomes debatable. Right. Because what we saw, for example, is policy being implemented. So, yes, the ICE Persona did the best they can, but if your policy is to take and separate families, there's only one detention center that or two, I forget, that can hold women and children.

[Christina Clouseau]

Okay.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And. And you took someone who, his only offense is as a family to cross the border and separate that family for a year and didn't even bring a claim against them because immigration system is so backed up and broken. Maybe the ICE officer is treated and you're shuffled in that system. You have no access to nothing. You do not know anything. So, yes, maybe they're being treated humane in the way they're being held, but I could argue that that's a complicated humane question.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Okay, that's a really good, interesting answer. So let's talk about that separation for a second. What did you guys witness there? What I remember us hearing was that these people were being separated. Sometimes the kids were completely separated from any parent, and then it wasn't being recorded proper. So they ultimately became lost. Whatever happened with that. And was it really like that?

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yeah. So, I mean, the policy comes down, right? And I think as everything in the first era of Trump, it seemed to be more surprised and less planned. I think they've slightly changed for good and bad. And I remember having very good relationships with the head of the detention center. And, you know, when you do such a thing, it's going to immediately affect people that have to actually do it on the field. How are going to do it? Where are the beds? What's going to move? What's the military? What's the plan? This got announced. Nobody at the detention center. I'm talking like head of the detention center, not like a little person. He was like, I didn't know anything. I heard it in the news.

[Christina Clouseau]

Wow.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So there was immediate frustration to, okay, but what are we going to do? I think what I remember is hearing from some ICE agents who I would Say are more on the right kind of, let's go after them side. Loving the idea that it installs fear and it deters. The deterrence is a tactic that some find very angering, some find very useful. This administration, clearly, and the people who are leading it, the Homans, Millers, it's a tool they like to use. I think they would actually agree with me installing fear. If I tell, if you see, if that gets on the news, if I separate, if I dare do this, if I. Then you're going to stop coming if you have to. I'll give you another example. If, if we close parts of the border now, you have to endure walking 60 miles in the desert and you see that some people die. There's a negative in that. Oh, my God, people are dying for this. That's also a positive in their eyes because this is a price. Now you choose. So I, you know, I think there was a lot of chaos is what we saw. I think, I think people didn't know what was going. I think they were surprised, I think, because the system was not prepped. There was certainly people who got lost. There was unclarity when it's going to be, you know, Trump ended up reversing that after the pressure. I can't remember if it was six, seven, eight weeks or so.

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

But everything felt like it was kind of done. Like, oh, my God, what. And some of them took years to come back. And what we saw for sure, what I could tell you is a ton of trout.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

We looked into the eyes of fathers and families and kids. We went to Guatemala to see, like, the trauma was unbelievable. And, you know, we get lost in this and you forget the people you forget. I remember that we had this rare access. We were the only journalist in a detention center. And we were sitting and I remember talking to these fathers and because it was men, we had access to the men at that time, that. And at a certain point, I'm interviewing them in Spanish for the most part. There was all from other countries. And I remember looking at Christina and kind of thinking, did we ask everything we asked about this. We asked, how much time does he know his kids? Does he get phone calls? What does he think? And then I remember turning to this one character and this idea popped in my head. And he told me his kit was four. And I asked him, can you tell me how he looks like? And what is he like? Like, what does he want to do? What kind of food does he like? And then I didn't know if we'd Use that in the show. But every person in those couple of days I asked told me. And it was this bitter sweet of tears and laughter. And I remember us crying, and I remember us folding that setup that we had. They were. Walked out anyway. And there was a person there, somebody who worked there. I can't even remember if there was ice. And I was like. She's like, what are they saying? And I kind of. Because it was right. It was tears and laughter. It was like this joy of remembering my child. And I said to. Do you understand Spanish? And she said, no. And I remember being in tears. And I said, honestly, it's very simple. But I kind of. I'm happy you don't, because it's too painful for me to explain at the moment. Like, it was just. So, yeah, we. You know, the policies, you get lost out, but then there is outcome and there are people, you see. And that one was definitely painful. And again, I think it falls into this idea of installing fear.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah. Do you think that what you were hearing from them, that it was a deterrent at that point where the father saying, I do anything to get my kids and my wife back. We'll just go back to our country, or were they adamant that they wanted to be in America and move forward?

[Christina Clouseau]

I think it's a little bit of both. I think people. I think generally the idea of installing fear is one thing, but the reality is that so many of these individuals have real fears. They're really. They have left. They didn't want to leave their country. Right. They had to leave their country. And I think that's something that's kind of a misconception in a way, that they're coming here to ask for help because they can no longer return home.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. That's important to remember.

[Christina Clouseau]

And I think that was one thing that I. And I think a lot of people will go to a lot of lengths, and they'll wait and they'll wait and they'll wait because they can't. And so I think some. Maybe the deterrence did work in that sense because they finally said, you know what? I just need to be with my kids and others. No, they waited. Right.

[Rachel Yukatel]

I'm curious, in all the access you had, if there's one or a few stories that stand out to each of you where it was just so painful to watch that you could share.

[Shaul Schwartz]

There's so many.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So in that detention center, we, once again, we. We actually had very good relationships with the agents and the person who ran the facility. And at one point we kept. They kept saying, there's this guy, there's this, there's that. And child separation was happening. And then we said, hey, is there anybody? Can you just kind of say, hey, there's these journalists here and they get to sit here. Nobody gets to do this. Who wants to talk to us? And there were two women. One made the show, one. Not that both broke my heart. And one was a case of Berta, who was an asylum seeker who was 63 years old. And to make a very long story short, she was the most clear non threat to the US that anybody could be. Was a really strong asylum case that was. Clearly looked pretty legit. And there's a lot of asylum cases that don't. It's a huge loophole. And she was there for I think north of a year at that point. And we kind of like brought this and she talked to us and we met her lawyer through that, who's still a good friend. And we brought it back to the man who runs a detention center. And we said, why this lady? Look at this file. And he kind of listed. And this part's in the show of all the things that he could do that he doesn't want to hold her. And actually the lawyer like checked out all these things. And yeah, I just remembered Berta being like. I just felt like they detained my grandma who actually ran from life. And they couldn't. They were like. There was again this idea that she'll break down, but you could tell that this woman, she had helped her. She had helped her granddaughter because she was trying to be forced into marriage, into the gangs. And she ran away with her. And there was a police report. Everything like, fit. And I could tell she just, like, just staying. She. She wasn't gonna, like, the alternative was just worse. And I don't know, it broke my heart. There was this lady, this nun that came to visit her all the time. Time. Sometimes in these situations, you meet people who, no matter what they do good. These Mother Teresa figures. I'm not very religious of sort at all. And. And you just lean on them because you. It's. You're so broke. So, yeah, there were cases like that. There was another lady that we didn't publish that clearly had an asylum story of abuse.

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And they just get lost in this. In this pretty vicious system. And there's a ton of stories that, you know, I could see why they shouldn't be let in. And it all gets confusing. But you do meet so many people who. You're like, oh, My God.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. Have you followed up with her story? Do you know whatever happened to her?

[Shaul Schwartz]

She got deported and she actually. 63 years old, got deported and she actually made it back and tried again. And to me, it was just this, like, who does that if you're not.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Meaning she legally tried to come in now, filling out the paperwork and all that stuff.

[Shaul Schwartz]

No, she tried legally the first time. She was in detention facility over a year. I can't remember. This is a long time ago. And eventually gets deported.

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And went on a huge track back and ended up trying and got deported again. And ended up trying again in Mexico to actually do it the right way, if there is such a thing. At that point, I lost track. And that granddaughter of hers actually remained in the US Which I think was part of. She was like kind of willing to die for that, I think.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So she. In a weird way, she saved. But yeah. I don't know where they are today. It's been a couple of years.

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

It's so hard to stay in touch. It's actually. Even when they're inside the ICE kind of mechanism. We used to call it the black hole. Because people just like. Because of beds and needs for no rhyme or reason, really. They could get moved to a different detention center. They could be held a year. They could be released tomorrow. Just released out to the streets. Because it's so arbitrary. Maybe there's just like they're from a country that ICE just can't deport to. ICE can't deport to countries like Cuba, Venezuela. There's a bunch. There's no agreement in place. And so you're actually holding this person in a cell that you can't do anything with. You're paying $150 a day for a tax. Out of tax money for a person to sit in a jail that's technically not a jail because he's awaiting his process, but there's nowhere to go. And it just kind of rips at you when you see how. Yeah. How the system kind of like. Arbitrary. That's the word I keep coming back to.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. I'm curious because you see such a public display of whatever's going on right now these days where you're watching these people get detained now, especially in New York today, there's, you know, all these. I think there was video of last night, two nights ago, with people getting walked down the street by ice. What was that like for you guys, being part of those. Watching that happen where they're just knocking on a door, surprising people in the middle of the night and taking them.

[Christina Clouseau]

But it was really hard for sure, you know, but you have to. Because we were embedding with ice, there becomes this line that you can't cross. You know, you are a journalist, you are behind the camera emotionally. You have to kind of separate it and deal with the emotional side of it later because you are there to witness this and document it. And I think that's something that we, you know, talked a lot about. We process a lot of emotional things, but when you're actually in the moment, you just have to be present and you have to just witness. And the idea is, you know, that we're going to tell these stories, but we as journalists need to just document. And, you know, I think that was kind of something that no matter how hard it was that you. We tried to keep that line, I think we did it pretty well. Right, right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

I think we also understood them to a degree. Like that specific part. Look, this unit, they, like we said, they mainly went after people who actually had a criminal record and they were here illegally. And like I said before, they want to play like it's a cat and mouse and. Sure. You know, it was more like sad if you knock on that door and their brother's here and they like, didn't do anything and they've been here for 15 years and they're going through Colle College and you just collateral him on the way.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Yeah, right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Yeah. Legal or not, you're like, what the hell?

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

But yeah, I think there's harder parts to understand, Rachel. Like, I think what's really immigration gets lumped as all. As one.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

The border, these criminals. There's like so much about that immigration, so much more. It's a docker kid that's been here that was brought to you when he was 4 and he's living in fear now. It's the people who are trying to do it the right way. There is no right way for most of these people to come. It's, you know, there's. There's so many people that are living in communities that are not the border story. They're, they're. They've paid trillions in dollars in tax year. There's refugee resettlement. They're just legally brought here that say helped us in Afghanistan because they served in the US military that they're trying to get their families here because they were brought here in the chaos. And now this program's shut down. So I think in a weird way, seeing the knocks on the door as upsetting as it is to people. It wasn't as frustrating because we war with the ICE agents. And I remember one of them, Julie, said, like, someone has to do the job, and I'm it. And I actually understood her job. I think it's what's harder for me is that because this issue is complicated and so controversial and nobody actually wants to talk about it. We just like screaming matches that. Everything gets lumped together, and then I'm an immigrant. Elon Musk is an immigrant. What is this country if not a country of immigrants? Why are we good if we don't attract the world talent, do you think we'll be that good? Maybe some American first people think we are. I think we're much better off as an immigrant country. And that's where it gets to me more angering, this idea of like, of course we shouldn't help a refugee. Well, wait a minute. Why not? They are people who've been for years recognized by the un they're probably sometimes of a cause of our doing in different countries, and now their life's in danger. And the crime rate among refugees is like 1 to 10 to a citizen or something. Again, I'm roughing up here the data. So that's what's. To me, those things are more angering sometimes than ICE is doing their job or ICE is removing people. Yeah, there has to be law. There has to be. Any country needs immigration law. You should come here legally. You should not enter through the window. But there also has to be common sense. For example, right now, one of the first thing they did is kill CBP1. That's an app that Trump started in his first administration. So instead of running through the country, you could sign up and do it the right way. If you want to ask for asylum, you're going to wait on the other side, sometimes years in Mexico and get an appointment. So. So if you take the app that makes that work, that you essentially sign up to have an appointment before coming here illegally and just kill it, I think people are just going to run across the border more. Yeah, sure. Some may say, I'm scared, it's not worth it. But it's those things anger me about immigration, not how an ICE agent effectively knocks on a door.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Got it.

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah, I agree. Just to add to that, I think what we did see is that the ICE agents are the individuals, the one thing. But once somebody is detained in the system, there's a whole another set of bureaucratic black holes that they go through. You know, the lack of communication, people not to talk to their Lawyers. The backlog of waiting for court case, the signing a document wrong or filling it out incorrectly can put your case back years, months or years or just the idea. A lot of the. We worked with refugees and these followed to join cases. So it's somebody that's been admitted as a refugee to the United States, waited in line, has been extremely vetted for many years. We have said, yes, you can come now. They want to bring their families, they can apply for their family. And in this case, Deborah was applying for her four children and she waited for years for them. And what ends up happening is there becomes a black hole of the paperwork is that it's being chased around from office to office. They can't find it. It's somewhere here. It's. And I think that was intentional. There's a lot of intention that was going into these bureaucratic black holes that created just a lot more mess. Even beyond the fact that somebody's being detained and put in a detention center and being deported, if you want to actually keep your case going, it just extends and extends.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Christina, I'm curious, in your perspective, was there a moment that either really haunts you about what you learned and what you witnessed, or a moment that you really felt proud of what was happening?

[Christina Clouseau]

I think Deborah's story, this refugee, this woman that she came to the US she didn't choose to come here. Refugees don't choose where they get resettled to. Okay. She is. She was burned by acid by her husband in Uganda, and she waited for a while to come to the come as a refugee to the United States. And she filed for her four children. And there was an incident where we actually accompanied her to Kenya to see her children and to try. She was trying very hard to push the case forward. And I remember being with her and trying to actually go to the. The office where the case files were and how she was so adamant about that. If I just set foot in the country and if I just stand here and if I just demand that those case files or on somebody's desk, that that will make all the difference. And in her situation, I think it helped move the case forward. I think that she was. She's just one of the strongest people I know. And she waited and she pushed and she fought and she never gave up. And I think that was really kind of a small light, a lot of dark.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right? Right. Okay. So I know you guys don't make policy and all this stuff, but you guys are highly educated and you guys have been in the middle of this and seen More than most people. What is the right way?

[Christina Clouseau]

How.

[Rachel Yukatel]

How is this going to transpire going forward?

[Shaul Schwartz]

Well, those are two different. What's going to happen and what's the right way is quite different.

[Rachel Yukatel]

All right, well, let's start with what is the right way.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Obviously, this is my personal opinion.

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Look, like I, like I said before, I think this country is better off with immigrants. I think it's very sad that we talk to immigrants, lump them all together, talk to them as all their rapists and murderers. And, you know, when you have millions of millions of people, you're going to have a lot of kinds of people. I think if you really want to change the immigration look, we haven't had an immigration reform since 1996 because the two parties can't talk to about this issue. So none of the ways that you're supposed to come to this country make any sense. The visa programs, everything is kind of broken. If you want to control who's coming here, which I think we all want, you have to get realistic about it and let people do a right way. This is a slogan that's being used. But I gave now this CBP1 example, like we need. I'll give you the answer through examples. We covered Panama City had a hurricane when we were doing immigration nation, a very strong one. And a lot of undocumented people came and started working to rebuild the houses of people. This is a very Trump area, very conservative. Right. And there was clearly a need for them. Most of the people needed those people. There wasn't other people to sit on the roof at whatever hot it was and do the work at the same time. When you went to Home Depot, we saw the police raided. There is, there is an irony of, of there's farming. There is a lot of need for work. There is a lot of, like I said, more prestige visas of attracting talent here, you know, and on the flip side, to those who just want America first, let's remove everybody. I would caution, without getting into the details, that no matter what you do, that, that that policy is not very achievable for an array of reasons which I can explain, but will take a while. So to simplify a complicated issue, I think the common sense thing would be to say, okay, listen, there's some people like these DACA people. We've been monitoring them since the Obama days. They've came here as children. It was not their decision. And most of them are more American than I am at this point. They've paid their taxes. We've had them on these Programs they check in. Why aren't we taking this 800,000 people and getting them off this blacklist of 12 or 14 or however million people who are in limbos and shadows. The goal is to have less people in the shadows and deport some of the people who shouldn't be here. And the main goal is to not let people come here the wrong way or illegally. But in order to achieve that, and this is where I probably differ from because I'm kind of a. People think we may be very left on immigration. I'm not, I'm an immigrant. I did it the right way, but I had that rare opportunity because of the luck of where I from and because of my talent. And I don't know if I would have that today, quite frankly. Frankly. So if you don't allow people to do it the right way, especially the more common workers, those who build after hurricanes, those who milk the cows, those who pluck the chickens, and I can go on and on and on. And for the most part those people, there's a lot of pluses in what they do for this economy. Taxes, they're going to do it the wrong way and we're gonna have a problem. And no matter how much you want to enforce and scare, and guess what, when you enforce and scare, while it could have an effect of moving people, you're also creating people in fear and in poverty, they're more susceptible to do bad shit.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Agreed.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So you know, it's this hammer and olive leave at the same time to me is a solution. Solution. There are programs that I agree and some of my friends at the immigrant community would be upset with me saying, but there's a thing called temporary tps, temporary protected status. A lot of people are under it and basically it says if your country has suffered from a really bad thing right now you don't have to file for asylum. You're collectively every 18 months we kind of like reassess if it's safe to go back. So Haiti is under TPS now and Trump wants to cancel it. Some countries have been under TPS for so long, it just doesn't make sense. Now again, the flip side is, wait a minute, these people have been here for years. If somebody's been here for 15 years and they're from El Salvador, there's other examples. Should I look in and see if they're law abiding citizens that pay taxes, that got married that you know. And I think there's such an extreme and polarization about this subject that everybody is just stuck in Showing the other side.

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

The arbitrary and grief that it creates is horrific. And if I believe once I got to mention one more example because this is the one thing that no matter how right wing or Republican person, when I would say that they would be like, oh, maybe you're right, maybe the system's broken. We didn't know this, but we were standing on the border in El Paso, Juarez one day and there's this event that people could get to hug each other across the border that they can't meet and separated families just. And it's been happening forever. And one of the guys said, you know, my daughter didn't want to come today, but I'm here to help, just to see. And he started talking to Christina and he said, and his English was perfect and stuff and he was like, like, I'm a U.S. marine. And I was like, you're full of. He's like, no, there's deported veterans. I, I, you know, you could go in to and serve in the military and this is a small percent of people. It's not this huge issue you're going to hear about. But it just showed me. And we started follow deported veterans through the show and we actually wanted to make a movie just about them. And it showed me just how sometimes how lost we are with this subject because I don't think there's one Republican person I know that I talk to. We go back to where Christina is from, northern Minnesota. A lot of people think very right wing. We have these conversations all the time. And sometimes I hear him say these things about immigration and to some I agree with and some, but to some I'm like, what are you talking about? You're so into the argument and you know so little and you're, and the saddest thing, you're looking so little at the person that it's hurting.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Like really this Marine that served some. If it was a horrific crime, maybe you should deport him, I think put him in prison. If he served your country, if he went to two tours in Iraq, then yeah, an American could be a murderer too. I'm sorry. That's why we have prisons. But some of them smoked weed. It's legal now he's sitting in Mexico. What are we doing?

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And the irony is we can't solve this. So I, the, the weird, the good news about this, extremely complicated. For those listening who are kind of losing their mind. Yes, the details are complicated. The better news, the simplicity is I actually think most of us can agree on a lot of it, but we have to kind of take a breath and it's extremely hard in polarized America that we live in. And unfortunately, you ask me, what do you think is going to happen? That is clearly not what's going to happen. Because if you really want to negotiate, you don't do some of the things we're seeing in week one.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Anyway, that's my heated. I think America would be disappointed at just a strong arm. They will learn that it's very hard to deport millions and millions of people. It's going to be extremely expensive, extremely unaffective, it will cause a lot of grief. They'll have positives in it. The border is actually fairly slow. People say, oh millions, you know, during the Trump era, millions of people crossed the border too. Our border is a rough, pretty open area. But you could build and build and spend millions. And Trump was able to build What, a whole 50 something miles in the first. Didn't slow much down. And if you built those, you're just creating an industry for smugglers, drug cartels to bring people and they'll break that every time like that. So these issues, like they're so emotional but really the solution is if you want to stop something, maybe you should be tough when it's illegal, but make a legal way, really fix the problem. We have 300 and something immigration judges, we need about 10,000. There's a pending. You have to wait for an immigration asylum case for an average of somewhere between 55 to 10 years.

[Christina Clouseau]

That should be one week, right?

[Shaul Schwartz]

So if you really need asylum, that is a loophole. I agree with the right wing on that. Most people just say asylum. And my lawyer friends on the left will scream at me for saying this, but I've seen it with my two eyes, right? You know, I've sat in non detained docket. This is a unit, I sat in New York that basically about 3 million people report to the majority of people here, even undocumented. A lot of them ICE knows about and they come to these meetings and usually they're really scared. They're scared of being deported, they're scared of what's going to happen. Once in a while we would sit and these agents, ICE agents became our friends. And he was like, you see how everybody's nice to me and careful. This next guy, he's going to walk in, he's going to be an, he can put his feet on my desk. You know why? Because he's from Cuba. He understands that there's no way because of the way the law is said. I'M going to be able to deport him. And he's violent. Look at his, look at his crimes. And he would show me, he beat up his wife. He's doing this. And at that point I was like, oh my God, you have to deport this guy. He's a clear criminal and he was a true ass when he came through that door. And so all these examples are, are really caused a lot by our inability as a country to step back and say we agree on most of this and there is common sense of Moses, but because it's such a hot cake, we haven't been able to have the right and the left in Congress since 96. Take and say, okay, this is how you get visas. This is the numbers of visas you get. There's the same numbers of visas for different countries like Mexico and Israel. That doesn't make any sense. You have a, that's your neighbor. You have a huge workforce. We're a tiny country. We. I'm originally from Israel. You know, it's, it's all little examples to show how broken the system. I've never met someone who knows a system as right wing or as left wing as they got that didn't think that the system is broken. Not one.

[Rachel Yukatel]

So I'm curious. Most of the, most of Americans are getting their information from this, from the media. Right. Because they're not necessarily taking the time to do all the research and obviously don't have the access that you did. What would be the one thing you would change about how the media covers immigration in general?

[Shaul Schwartz]

You know, it's always a hard question because the media is this big word. I see a lot on Fox News that they say, but covered in the media. And I'm like, you are the media, the biggest media in the country. What are you talking about?

[Christina Clouseau]

About?

[Shaul Schwartz]

So, you know, it gets covered quite like. Right. This media is. And I'm the media, but immigration. Netflix on Immigration Nation on Netflix is part of the media. Maybe more an entertainment company, but that doc is part of. Yeah. So again, it comes back to this point of this is emotional and it's okay to be emotional. It's actually a good thing if, if you're not emotional, if you don't care to. That's worse. But, but I wish it would be covered a little bit more. Yeah. And I don't even know if it's not. You know, I'm, I'm hesitant, as you can tell, to kind of blame my partners in the media. Like, like all of us, we have better and worse and Great and bad days were. I think a lot of the information is out there. I don't think we want to hear or digest it really. And because it does get complicated, as you can hear, I'll give you all these examples, but I'm trying to simplify it so I don't fall too deep and not forget that Berta, that deported veteran, that. Or even that ICE agent that gets hated. And maybe he is doing an okay thing, or maybe he's just a cop that took a federal job and that's the mandate. So I'm a little bit careful about the media's role because I don't really think they're that at fault, if that makes sense. I think, I think we as a country, as a whole thing on that media debate is at fault.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

We were very polarized and I personally think we're in very dark days when it comes to immigrants. I absolutely despise the rhetoric of, of this administration about how they talk about immigrants. To me, the US Is much stronger as a country of immigrants. I think that is actually part of the fabric of its dream. And I think this rhetoric and, or, and I think a lot of them know that. I know they know they can't just. There's not a solution just by deporting and being tough. That is a pitch that's wrong, wrong.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

It's just not. They could say it all they want and we can meet in four years and I can say, I told you so.

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So what they are doing is there's a lot of installing of fear, but in that they're demonizing and they're lumping all these people together. They're lumping people that, look, I don't have a fear per se. I've been a citizen, what, for like over 10 years, I've been here 25 years. But I could feel, traveling in some places, I'm a journalist and people who know me, like, I'll put it all out there, but I could feel already a tone in the difference of like, shut up, you don't have a right to talk, you're not from here, or why do you think you did it? You know, I could just feel the tone. And yeah, to that part, everything I'm trying to merge, but to that part where we are going and this has been a process for a while, there is no win for Americans.

[Christina Clouseau]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

I don't care if you're right or left. Being brutal, demonizing, not realizing actually the different people it affects, the way it affects our economy. Saying slogans of like solving a solution by a military in power that is limited by. It's part of the solution that. That's where I think we're. We're really wrong. Our inability to talk, to chill it down. And a basic argument, which is an argument I don't think it takes, there is, like, frustration with whatever it is and putting it on the migrant crime economy. I mean, it's clearly part of Trump's pitch, right? And it clearly works. And this country is clearly upset about it. And then they're upset about the people and they say, oh, just do it legally. They always say it, but they're killing the legal programs and they're upset with people who are doing it legally. They're not letting. They shut up. Who are you to talk? And it's kind of ironic because then they all like, look at the Statue of Liberty and the meaning of their grandparents coming in here, and it's the same, right? And it's what you're so proud of that made this country right? And there's an irony there that you're just like, what the hell?

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right?

[Christina Clouseau]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Doesn't make sense. Do you think that you. Is this something you want to do a part two, too? Do you want to get involved in. In revisiting this ever again in a documentary form?

[Shaul Schwartz]

Until a month ago, I would have said no way, Jose. You know, we've kind of, as, you know, we've kind of done. We've done now base jumping and a Shan White show, and we're looking at these things to some degree. We just had a child, and I feel like we fought a large fight and told the story. Of course we won't have access to ice, which is fine. They felt that. I think we did a fair and balanced job. And it just showed a painful process of a lot of things I described, but they felt hurt by it, and that's fine. But the, the real answer is I think so. I think it's this weird curse of doing what we do you as we grow. I just celebrated my 50th and I've been doing this job for 30 years. And. And I was like, ah, just do the fun things. Maybe sell. It's not what the networks want, but I find myself caring. We spend time in Ohio now in the refugee center that we talked about. And I think, what if we do this? We would want to focus on actual legal immigration. That huge part. Refugees is a part of it, not lumping it all together. People like this past week, I met all these people who were in Afghanistan stand And I was interviewing this guy and on camera, and I. I asked him, you know, were you vetted? What did you do for the military? Did you ever see action? And he kind of went like this and lifted his shirt and showed me the scar from the ied. And he was like, here's a number. Open my cell phone. Sergeant Blah, blah, blah. Special Forces call them. You.

[Christina Clouseau]

You.

[Shaul Schwartz]

They. They'll. They'll tell you who I am and what I did for the US military for. I can't remember if he said 12 years or 14. And I suddenly found myself. I was like, oh, no, here we go again. Me and Christina are going to do this, aren't we? We're going to like. I don't know if somebody wants to buy it. I don't know what we're doing here, but. But it feels like it matters, right?

[Rachel Yukatel]

It's an important story to be told.

[Shaul Schwartz]

And so, yeah, I can't predict the future. This just started and to some degree I hope we don't. I hope. You know, we were thinking of doing a show with Novak, Djokovic or like other stuff, which are great because I realize that sometimes in hard times, people actually want entertainment. They want to escape and it's okay to make that right. But something burns inside us. And I think it's partially the mix that we're an American and immigrant turned American. I think it's everything we saw through being. I don't think anybody ever had access to ICE away we did and again we actually walked away that we don't. People like you hate ICE agents. I was like, no. Maybe the top of the administration disliked us. I have a lot of the ICE agents are my friends. Literally today I could call them and talk to them and everything because we were in it with them. And so I think we're still drawn to in. But I think to me the biggest thing was would be to kind of do something about troubles being caused to people who are doing it the right way. If the solution starts with people think it starts with enforcement. But if you just do enforcement, you're not going very far.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right.

[Shaul Schwartz]

So can we focus on the right way when it works and when it doesn't and makes people knowledge a little bit more on whether it's refugees, where. Whether it's the right visas, whether it's how our systems built. But yeah, so we're researching that as a short. We're researching three projects and one of them is about immigration. But this started a month ago. We really resisted it. We're writing our first fiction Film based on true events, which is artistically really satisfying after being just a journalist for 30 years or not just but like doing with. So it's a new form. So, you know, I think in a freelance creative life that we live, you kind of like plan these things, but then certain destiny and what kind of clicks in a way takes the role. And certainly if we end up doing something else, I'll be fine. Because I think a lot of people are going to deal with immigration and I think they should. And I actually think it's going to keep dominating the news. And I do think we're going to see, you know, this administration is brand new. We're going to see a lot of things go under, right. And into question and into big legal fights. And unfortunately, I will be shocked. Like, I don't think this is going to get close to being better.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Right. For those of you listening, Immigration Nation is on Netflix. You must see it if you haven't seen it yet. It's fantastic. It's heart wrenching. It's all sorts of things. But Shaul, you did an amazing job with Christina on that. I am in awe of all the work that you always do. I think you guys are both fabulous and I do wish you the best of luck. I cannot wait to see what is next. If people are interested in following more about you or reaching out to you, where can they find you?

[Shaul Schwartz]

You can Google us and literally call. We do listen to story. We're like always listening for an immigration story or a different story or a people experience. We're independent people and we're quite a good journalist. Never listens, never stops listening. And we're certainly that.

[Rachel Yukatel]

That's right. All right, my friend, thank you so much for joining us today.

[Shaul Schwartz]

Rachel, you're amazing and always fun to chat to. Keeping it real and honest and light and.

[Christina Clouseau]

Foreign.

[Rachel Yukatel]

Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstood with Rachel Ukitel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcastmail. That's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next.