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Documenting ICE Agents & Detention Centers | Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz - Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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Documenting ICE Agents & Detention Centers | Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz

Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

Wed Jan 28 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: Documenting ICE Agents & Detention Centers

Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Guests: Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz
Date: January 28, 2026

Overview

In this powerful episode, Rachel Uchitel hosts documentary filmmakers and photojournalists Christina Clusiau and Shaul Schwarz, co-directors of the Netflix series Immigration Nation. The conversation explores their approach to capturing immigration enforcement in America, their personal experiences documenting ICE operations and detention centers, and the deeply human toll of U.S. immigration policy. They offer unparalleled insight into the complexities of the system, the often arbitrary bureaucracy, and the misconceptions that dominate public debate.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Journey into Documentary Filmmaking

Background: Both Christina and Shaul come from print journalism and photography. They met through the Time magazine community.
Partnership: They realized that documentary filmmaking requires a team effort, which led to the formation of their production company.
- “This is unlike still photography. This is a team effort. Can we actually live and play under the same roof?” — Shaul (04:25)
First Projects: Early work focused on shorts for publications, paving the way for feature-length docs and series.
Their Style: They gravitate toward controversial subjects, seeking access that provides complexity, aiming to ask questions, not give simple answers.

2. Genesis of 'Immigration Nation'

Origins: Stemmed from Shaul’s earlier work documenting the Mexican/American drug war and building relationships with ICE personnel that led to unprecedented access.
Pitching the Series: Initially, ICE was reluctant, but climate shifted with the Trump administration and the national debate over immigration intensified.
Access:
- “We had amazing access—almost in some parts you can’t believe they’re filming this.” — Rachel (16:49)
- Their access included agents, detention centers, and the lives of detainees and families.

3. The Numbers Game & Internal ICE Culture

Quotas Pressure: Agents often pressured to meet numbers, even when not logistically supported.
- “Your boss might say this one day and the next day he’s like, I don’t have space for anybody... That is this kind of weird, sad, depressing thing in this system.” — Shaul (22:10)
Collateral Arrests: Even when targeting those with criminal backgrounds, “collateral” detentions occur, sweeping in others caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

4. Detention Center Realities

Process: Detained individuals may languish from days to years, sometimes arbitrarily, due to backlog or inability to deport them.
Treatment: Generally humane on a day-to-day level, but systemically inhumane due to policies and arbitrary separations.
- “Yes, maybe they are being treated humanely in the way they’re being held, but I could argue that’s a complicated humane question.” — Shaul (31:29)
Chaos of Child Separation Policy:
- Policies were abruptly implemented, leading to chaos, lost children, desperation, and trauma.
- “There was immediate frustration...nobody at the detention center, even the head, knew anything. They heard it in the news.” — Shaul (33:10)
- “The trauma was unbelievable. You get lost in this and you forget the people.” — Shaul (34:59)

5. Human Impact: Personal Stories and Trauma

Berta’s story: 63-year-old asylum seeker, detained for over a year, eventually deported despite a clear, legitimate claim.
- “I just felt like they detained my grandma who actually ran from life.” — Shaul (39:59)
Deborah’s story: Ugandan refugee acid-attack survivor who fought to be reunited with her children, demonstrating both the cruel delays and resilience in the system.
- “She fought and she never gave up. That was really a small light in a lot of dark.” — Christina (52:40)

6. Journalistic Ethics & Emotional Toll

The line between witnessing and intervening as journalists.
- “Emotionally you have to separate it and deal with the emotional side later, because you are there to witness and document...We tried to keep that line.” — Christina (44:37)

7. The Broken System & Policy Reflections

Systemic Failure: All three agree the immigration system is fundamentally broken, a victim of decades of political gridlock.
Enforcement Alone Is Not the Answer:
- Emphasizes need for legal pathways, realistic programs, and addressing root causes rather than “hammer” enforcement alone.
- “If you don’t allow people to do it the right way, especially the more common workers...they’re going to do it the wrong way and we’re gonna have a problem.” — Shaul (56:52)
Polarization: The issue is so emotionally charged that rational discussion is rare.
- “We agree on most of this and there is common sense on most, but because it’s such a hot cake, we haven’t been able to have the right and the left in Congress since ’96.” — Shaul (64:34)

8. Media Portrayal of Immigration

Misconceptions: Media is often blamed, but the problem is the public’s unwillingness to digest complexity.
- “I don’t think we want to hear or digest it really. And because it does get complicated...” — Shaul (66:52)
Fear and Demonization: Current rhetoric demonizes immigrants and installs fear, exacerbating division.

9. Looking Ahead: Will There Be a Sequel?

Initially resisted, but recent experiences and ongoing crises may draw them back to immigration storytelling.
- “We would want to focus on actual legal immigration, not lumping it all together. Something burns inside us.” — Shaul (72:21)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Seeing the Human Behind the Headline
- “We get lost in this and you forget the people...there is outcome, and there are people you see and that one was definitely painful.” — Shaul (35:16)
On the Emotional Toll and Detachment
- “You have to just witness...as journalists need to just document. And...no matter how hard it was, we tried to keep that line.” — Christina (44:37)
On Systemic Brokenness
- “I’ve never met someone who knows the system—as right wing or as left wing as they got—that didn’t think the system is broken. Not one.” — Shaul (64:49)

Timestamps of Key Segments

Origins & Early Career – 03:04–07:36
The Making of 'Immigration Nation' & ICE Access – 09:30–16:49
Numbers Game/ICE Quotas – 20:22–24:22
Detention Center Processes & Arbitrary Detainment – 24:39–29:49
Treatment & Human Rights Question – 30:41–32:02
Family Separation & Trauma – 32:27–36:00
Personal Stories (Berta, Deborah) – 38:35–52:46
On Policy Reform & Systemic Solutions – 52:58–61:22
Challenges with Media Coverage – 64:49–66:53
Future Projects & Emotional Aftermath – 70:06–75:44

Tone

The conversation is intimate, candid, and passionate—sometimes heavy, always searching for understanding. Rachel keeps the guests focused on the human impact while allowing their lived experiences to drive honest, nuanced debate.

Summary Takeaways

The U.S. immigration system is deeply complex, often arbitrary, and harmful in its current incarnation; reform is overdue.
The human cost—trauma, family separation, indefinite limbo—is profound.
Public understanding is clouded by emotionally charged rhetoric and lack of nuanced coverage.
Documentarians like Shaul and Christina see their role as shining light on the overlooked human beings behind the headlines, asking the tough questions, and holding space for empathy amid controversy.

Recommended Viewing:
Immigration Nation is streaming on Netflix.

Contact:

[Google Christina Clusiau & Shaul Schwarz for more]
They are open to hearing new stories and perspectives, especially regarding immigration.

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Transcript

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Shaul Schwartz (0:32)

This is not going to be easy.

Rachel Yukatel (0:34)

Let's talk about Immigration Nation. How did that come about?

Shaul Schwartz (0:39)

I made friends in ICE and they really loved that I'd come off spending time on the Mexican side. Trump's election was somewhat of a surprise. Immigration was a hot potato and suddenly ICE became the boogeyman. I don't care what you do, but bring at least two people in. Your boss might say this one day and the day he's like, I don't have space for anybody.

Rachel Yukatel (1:02)

Sometimes the kids were completely separated from any parent and then it wasn't being recorded properly. So they ultimately became lost. Whatever happened with that? And was it really like that?

Christina Clouseau (1:11)

It was really hard for our journalists. You are behind the camera because you are there to witness this.

Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel (1:26)

Welcome back to Misunderstood. I'm your host Rachel Yukatel.

Rachel Yukatel (1:29)

So we have heard a lot about.

Podcast Host Rachel Yukatel (1:31)

Immigration in the last couple weeks now that Trump has taken office again and I wanted to have two people on that I know know more about this subject than anyone I can possibly imagine speaking to my friends. Shaul Schwartz and his wife, Christina Clouseau are award winning documentary filmmakers and photojournalists. Together they co directed the Netflix series Immigration Nation, which provides a detailed and often unsettling look at the immigration system. The series offers rare access to ICE operations, the experiences of immigrants, and the broader consequences of immigration policies. Shaul and Christina are known for their raw and unflinching storytelling, often focusing on complex and controversial topics like wildlife conservation as seen in Trophy and now immigration. Their work aims to provoke discussion and shed light on issues often misunderstood or overlooked. This interview is a powerful opportunity to explore the evolving challenges in immigration today. Please enjoy my conversation with Shaul and Christina.

Shaul Schwartz (38:43)

So in that detention center, we, once again, we. We actually had very good relationships with the agents and the person who ran the facility. And at one point we kept. They kept saying, there's this guy, there's this, there's that. And child separation was happening. And then we said, hey, is there anybody? Can you just kind of say, hey, there's these journalists here and they get to sit here. Nobody gets to do this. Who wants to talk to us? And there were two women. One made the show, one. Not that both broke my heart. And one was a case of Berta, who was an asylum seeker who was 63 years old. And to make a very long story short, she was the most clear non threat to the US that anybody could be. Was a really strong asylum case that was. Clearly looked pretty legit. And there's a lot of asylum cases that don't. It's a huge loophole. And she was there for I think north of a year at that point. And we kind of like brought this and she talked to us and we met her lawyer through that, who's still a good friend. And we brought it back to the man who runs a detention center. And we said, why this lady? Look at this file. And he kind of listed. And this part's in the show of all the things that he could do that he doesn't want to hold her. And actually the lawyer like checked out all these things. And yeah, I just remembered Berta being like. I just felt like they detained my grandma who actually ran from life. And they couldn't. They were like. There was again this idea that she'll break down, but you could tell that this woman, she had helped her. She had helped her granddaughter because she was trying to be forced into marriage, into the gangs. And she ran away with her. And there was a police report. Everything like, fit. And I could tell she just, like, just staying. She. She wasn't gonna, like, the alternative was just worse. And I don't know, it broke my heart. There was this lady, this nun that came to visit her all the time. Time. Sometimes in these situations, you meet people who, no matter what they do good. These Mother Teresa figures. I'm not very religious of sort at all. And. And you just lean on them because you. It's. You're so broke. So, yeah, there were cases like that. There was another lady that we didn't publish that clearly had an asylum story of abuse.

Shaul Schwartz (46:21)

The border, these criminals. There's like so much about that immigration, so much more. It's a docker kid that's been here that was brought to you when he was 4 and he's living in fear now. It's the people who are trying to do it the right way. There is no right way for most of these people to come. It's, you know, there's. There's so many people that are living in communities that are not the border story. They're, they're. They've paid trillions in dollars in tax year. There's refugee resettlement. They're just legally brought here that say helped us in Afghanistan because they served in the US military that they're trying to get their families here because they were brought here in the chaos. And now this program's shut down. So I think in a weird way, seeing the knocks on the door as upsetting as it is to people. It wasn't as frustrating because we war with the ICE agents. And I remember one of them, Julie, said, like, someone has to do the job, and I'm it. And I actually understood her job. I think it's what's harder for me is that because this issue is complicated and so controversial and nobody actually wants to talk about it. We just like screaming matches that. Everything gets lumped together, and then I'm an immigrant. Elon Musk is an immigrant. What is this country if not a country of immigrants? Why are we good if we don't attract the world talent, do you think we'll be that good? Maybe some American first people think we are. I think we're much better off as an immigrant country. And that's where it gets to me more angering, this idea of like, of course we shouldn't help a refugee. Well, wait a minute. Why not? They are people who've been for years recognized by the un they're probably sometimes of a cause of our doing in different countries, and now their life's in danger. And the crime rate among refugees is like 1 to 10 to a citizen or something. Again, I'm roughing up here the data. So that's what's. To me, those things are more angering sometimes than ICE is doing their job or ICE is removing people. Yeah, there has to be law. There has to be. Any country needs immigration law. You should come here legally. You should not enter through the window. But there also has to be common sense. For example, right now, one of the first thing they did is kill CBP1. That's an app that Trump started in his first administration. So instead of running through the country, you could sign up and do it the right way. If you want to ask for asylum, you're going to wait on the other side, sometimes years in Mexico and get an appointment. So. So if you take the app that makes that work, that you essentially sign up to have an appointment before coming here illegally and just kill it, I think people are just going to run across the border more. Yeah, sure. Some may say, I'm scared, it's not worth it. But it's those things anger me about immigration, not how an ICE agent effectively knocks on a door.

Shaul Schwartz (53:13)

Look, like I, like I said before, I think this country is better off with immigrants. I think it's very sad that we talk to immigrants, lump them all together, talk to them as all their rapists and murderers. And, you know, when you have millions of millions of people, you're going to have a lot of kinds of people. I think if you really want to change the immigration look, we haven't had an immigration reform since 1996 because the two parties can't talk to about this issue. So none of the ways that you're supposed to come to this country make any sense. The visa programs, everything is kind of broken. If you want to control who's coming here, which I think we all want, you have to get realistic about it and let people do a right way. This is a slogan that's being used. But I gave now this CBP1 example, like we need. I'll give you the answer through examples. We covered Panama City had a hurricane when we were doing immigration nation, a very strong one. And a lot of undocumented people came and started working to rebuild the houses of people. This is a very Trump area, very conservative. Right. And there was clearly a need for them. Most of the people needed those people. There wasn't other people to sit on the roof at whatever hot it was and do the work at the same time. When you went to Home Depot, we saw the police raided. There is, there is an irony of, of there's farming. There is a lot of need for work. There is a lot of, like I said, more prestige visas of attracting talent here, you know, and on the flip side, to those who just want America first, let's remove everybody. I would caution, without getting into the details, that no matter what you do, that, that that policy is not very achievable for an array of reasons which I can explain, but will take a while. So to simplify a complicated issue, I think the common sense thing would be to say, okay, listen, there's some people like these DACA people. We've been monitoring them since the Obama days. They've came here as children. It was not their decision. And most of them are more American than I am at this point. They've paid their taxes. We've had them on these Programs they check in. Why aren't we taking this 800,000 people and getting them off this blacklist of 12 or 14 or however million people who are in limbos and shadows. The goal is to have less people in the shadows and deport some of the people who shouldn't be here. And the main goal is to not let people come here the wrong way or illegally. But in order to achieve that, and this is where I probably differ from because I'm kind of a. People think we may be very left on immigration. I'm not, I'm an immigrant. I did it the right way, but I had that rare opportunity because of the luck of where I from and because of my talent. And I don't know if I would have that today, quite frankly. Frankly. So if you don't allow people to do it the right way, especially the more common workers, those who build after hurricanes, those who milk the cows, those who pluck the chickens, and I can go on and on and on. And for the most part those people, there's a lot of pluses in what they do for this economy. Taxes, they're going to do it the wrong way and we're gonna have a problem. And no matter how much you want to enforce and scare, and guess what, when you enforce and scare, while it could have an effect of moving people, you're also creating people in fear and in poverty, they're more susceptible to do bad shit.

Shaul Schwartz (62:43)

So if you really need asylum, that is a loophole. I agree with the right wing on that. Most people just say asylum. And my lawyer friends on the left will scream at me for saying this, but I've seen it with my two eyes, right? You know, I've sat in non detained docket. This is a unit, I sat in New York that basically about 3 million people report to the majority of people here, even undocumented. A lot of them ICE knows about and they come to these meetings and usually they're really scared. They're scared of being deported, they're scared of what's going to happen. Once in a while we would sit and these agents, ICE agents became our friends. And he was like, you see how everybody's nice to me and careful. This next guy, he's going to walk in, he's going to be an, he can put his feet on my desk. You know why? Because he's from Cuba. He understands that there's no way because of the way the law is said. I'M going to be able to deport him. And he's violent. Look at his, look at his crimes. And he would show me, he beat up his wife. He's doing this. And at that point I was like, oh my God, you have to deport this guy. He's a clear criminal and he was a true ass when he came through that door. And so all these examples are, are really caused a lot by our inability as a country to step back and say we agree on most of this and there is common sense of Moses, but because it's such a hot cake, we haven't been able to have the right and the left in Congress since 96. Take and say, okay, this is how you get visas. This is the numbers of visas you get. There's the same numbers of visas for different countries like Mexico and Israel. That doesn't make any sense. You have a, that's your neighbor. You have a huge workforce. We're a tiny country. We. I'm originally from Israel. You know, it's, it's all little examples to show how broken the system. I've never met someone who knows a system as right wing or as left wing as they got that didn't think that the system is broken. Not one.