← Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Escaping a Polygamous Cult: Pamela Jones on the Rules That Trapped Her — and the Escape That Set Her Free
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Rachel Yucatel
Today on misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel.
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Pamela Jones
I was born into a very nefarious cult, the Lebaron clan. Erval Lebaron was considered the Mormon Manson. I lived in the wake of his murders. As a little girl, my father had trained me and taught me that my body belonged to whoever my husband was going to be. I only existed for one purpose and one purpose only, and that was for him. He always told me, if I can keep you pregnant, that will buy me two years.
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Rachel Yucatel
How do you know whether or not you want to escape the marriage or escape the cult?
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Pamela Jones
No one's ever left the cult and got away. And if someone did leave, they could be in danger of the blood atonement, which is they could be murdered. I knew I was leaving and I thought, if they find out I'm leaving, it's going to be over. They'll take my life. They had me so convinced that God would kill me. I have it out with God and I just thought, okay, Lord if you going to take my life, then take my life now.
- [02:36]
Rachel Yucatel
Pamela Jones was born into a polygamous Mormon cult in Mexico, a closed world where obedience was everything and choice did not exist. Girls were raised to be silent, compliant and fearful, taught that their value was tied to submission and survival depended on not questioning authority. Pamela was married at just 15 years old. She went on to have nine children inside a system that did not educate women, didn't encourage independence, and didn't prepare anyone for life outside its walls. Fear wasn't an emotion. It was the structure. For years, she wanted to leave, but didn't know how. No money, no education, no roadmap. And then at 34 years old, Pamela made a decision that would change everything. She escaped with her children, two cars, two tanks of gas and no guarantee of safety, crossing the Mexican border and starting over from nothing. She landed in Minnesota with less than a fifth grade education, no work history, and the kind of poverty most people never fully recover from. But what happened next is the part of this story that demands your attention. Pamela went from cleaning houses to founding a cleaning company that built a multimillion dollar empire employing dozens of women, raising nine children, and becoming a grandmother to 31 grandchildren. This isn't just a survival story. It's a story about reclaiming autonomy after a lifetime of control and proving that the life you're told you're destined for doesn't have to be the one you live. Welcome, Pamela Jones. Pamela, it's so good to have you here today on Misunderstood. Thank you so much for joining us all the way from Minnesota.
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Pamela Jones
Thank you for having me. I've been so much looking forward to this.
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Rachel Yucatel
Me too. Me too. So in researching your story and your book, I mean, I've got to say, your life is incredible. And I hope that your book gets picked up and they make a movie out of it. Has anyone been in talks with you about that yet?
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Pamela Jones
Yes, actually, we are in some talks with that, but everything's under wrap when we don't want to talk too much about until we got a signed deal of some sort.
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Rachel Yucatel
Exactly. Well, and just for the sake of not, you know, not taking things out of the universe, you know, like you just don't ever want to talk about it until it's real, because in that world, so many things are just talk until you sign on the dotted line. But I hope for you and for listeners and viewers out there that it is made into some sort of documentary, TV show, movie, whatever it is, because it's so incredible and unbelievable that you deserve the platform to share about it. So thank you. I do wish you all the best in that. Before we get into your book, which is essentially your memoir, it's out now, by the way. It's called the Dirt Beneath the Door. I want to get give people that are, have not, don't know about the book, don't know about your story. I want to start at the beginning. I want to talk about your childhood before, you know, we know where your story starts. You know, like when I've started researching you. It essentially starts at age 15 in a lot of things that they start to talk about. But I want to hear about the family you were born into, where you were born, and how you got into this lifestyle.
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Pamela Jones
Well, I was born into the lifestyle. My mother was married to a polygamous man. She was his third wife. And I was my father's 11th child out of 57 biological children.
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Rachel Yucatel
What is that?
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Pamela Jones
It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. When you're little, you don't know anything different. So it felt normal to me, of course. And I. I don't remember ever thinking that. It wasn't until obviously I got older. But, yeah, there was just a lot of sisters. We, you know, my family was always moving around because of different choices that they made and the way the religion was. So lots of times I spent a lot of time with my half siblings. Like, there'd be a big, huge bed out in the garage and there'd be several of us sisters all snuggled up on the bed. So I felt like I had a lot of fun with a lot of different family members.
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Rachel Yucatel
Okay, but how does it, how does it work? Is it like what we see in the TV show Sister Wives? Is it like there's a husband, he moves from house to house, then each wife has their kids in one house. Like, how is it all organized?
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Pamela Jones
Well, ideally it should go that way, but it was never that way for me. I always tell a lot of people that are now interested in my story that if it would have been anything like the Sister Wives or any of the shows I've seen on tv, I. It would have been a dream come true. It's almost like someone watching what is that show Julia Roberts is in Pretty Woman. And then they depicting that that story is the life of a hooker. And that's kind of how I compare the story of Sister Wives or any other story out there. It's nothing like that at all.
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Rachel Yucatel
Wow.
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Pamela Jones
And my mom never really had a night. My father really never came and stayed at our home, but obviously she had 13 children. So therefore they figured it out. But he just kind of made his rounds however he did to keep them pregnant and having his children. But yeah, it was really an interesting childhood. I was born into a very nefarious cult. It's I believe on record, it's one of the most nefarious of, of of all the Mormon sects that are out there.
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Rachel Yucatel
Meaning what? Explain what that means.
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Pamela Jones
Well, I don't know how much you know the story, but it's the LeBaron clan. So Erval LeBaron was considered the Mormon Manson and he became a very murderous man. And he started and implemented a ritual that was called the Blood Atonement, where they would murder members of the church to atone for their sins. And that was the teachings. Evidently Joseph Smith got some kind of revelation way back in the day. So he was the only one that was ever heard of in history that implemented the practice. And so I lived in the wake of his murders as a little girl, though I never met the man. But he ended up getting excommunicated from the church because there was some big fight going on amongst the brothers. So there's five brothers that moved into Mexico back in 1940, some odd, I don't know the exact date. And they started this church and my father got converted and then he married into the church as well. And then I was born in into it. So it wasn't something I chose to live, it was just something that I was born into.
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Rachel Yucatel
So it's all you knew as a child?
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Pamela Jones
It's all I knew as a child.
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Rachel Yucatel
And as a child, you know, we grow up who are not in cults. I would say in with Cinderella being played and you think, you know, you want to find the prince and the king and you're the princess and you want to have a happily ever after. What was your childhood like? What did you guys think was life about?
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Pamela Jones
Well, for me, I was supposed to have as many children as I could so I could get into heaven. So my little Cinderella story is I wanted to marry a handsome prince that I could have all these beautiful babies with. And preferably in a perfect world, he would not be an old gross old man and married to a bunch of other women. That was my secret. I didn't dare tell that to anybody because, you know, that would have been considered something wrong. But I was just thinking, if I could marry a man that wasn't married and he was a handsome man, that would be my fairy tale.
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Rachel Yucatel
So how does that work? I'm sorry to interrupt you but how does that work with like, as you're growing up, you kind of have feelings for other people, right? So when you're 12, 13, like my daughter's 13, she's just kind of getting it figured out if she wants a boyfriend, you know, that kind of thing. I know you had your first child or you got married at 15.
- [10:43]
Pamela Jones
Yeah, I got married at 15. But the way the cult worked is once you become a young lady. So once I started sprouting boobies and, you know, developing, then I started being marketable. So my father started marketing me in a certain way, whereas he would prance me around, around. And then a lot of the men in the cult would come around, bring my father gifts. He'd get clout in the church, he'd get like recognized and honored because he had these beautiful daughters. So by the time we became young ladies, I would notice all these old gross men coming around. And also my dad had all these men, you know, being so respectful to him and calling on him at church all the time to do all these great things and then donating whatever property, depending on whatever it was. So as a little girl, like you're asking at the age 12, 13, I mean, that's kind of how it started. And then we had moved into Mexico and so all of my prospects, most of them were little Hispanics, and I'm six foot feet tall, big chested, blondie. Anybody that could possibly even be a prospect for me was like right up to my armpit. So I just felt like that ugly duckling. So they weren't potential, you know, prospects. Besides, my father was racist and he definitely trained us and taught us not to marry outside of, you know, the cult or the religion or whatever it was. So that was never an option. So to answer your question, my little fairy tale, it was, it was just tarnished from the time you're, I think I was barely developing and noticing and that, you know, that I'm becoming a young lady and now there's all these men around, right? And we, and we suffered such hunger and poverty that my mom would get all these, you know, gifts, food gifts, and they would, they wired the house and we were able to have electricity. And it's because she had beautiful daughters. So then you start feeling like you're a camaraderie. Like it was almost like, you know, there's currency and then there's having beautiful daughters in the cult. And that was something that, that I became like a currency. That sounds so weird when I say it now, but it was the way it was.
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Rachel Yucatel
Yeah, I can understand that. So you didn't have any crush when you were younger and you didn't have a love that you had to be ripped away from when they organized a wedding for you to somebody?
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Pamela Jones
Elaine? Well, my first also called love, he was 10 years older than me, so I would have been 13. I was barely sprouting. The boo fairy had only come and pumped a couple of little pumps when I met him, and he was 10 years older than me and which is a big difference. He wasn't married, so he was my first little crush. But my father broke that apart immediately. I didn't find out till probably 40 years later what that was all about. There were some rumors that he was doing things with his father's wife that he should not be doing. So my dad thought, no way, you're not going to get my daughter. So that was my first little crush. And then I met the father and my children.
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Rachel Yucatel
So how was he introduced to you? Is that, was that a choice from your father?
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Pamela Jones
No. The church would have these so called conferences is something that Mormons do all the time. And then the whole church. The church had several different colonies throughout the United States and throughout Mexico. So they would gather twice a year and everybody would come. We lived in Baja California, Mexico, so they would all come down. And I met, met him there at one of the conferences doing whatever they were doing. They'd play some games and they'd have dances and do different things. And he was like a typical pot smoker. Long, thick, luscious, beautiful hair. And he's half Hispanic. He had on, back in those days, they wore those, what were they called, Ditto jeans. I don't know if you remember them back in the day, ditto bell bottom jeans and the silk shirts that were unbuttoned. He was considered a full fledged bad boy. And of course, me being the little innocent girl that I was, I was all Twitter paint.
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Rachel Yucatel
Oh, okay. So it was, it wasn't some old man that you weren't attracted to. This was a guy you could be with.
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Pamela Jones
Thank goodness. Yeah, there was plenty of old men. But in the religion that I'm from, you're able to choose who you want to marry. And of course the fathers have a lot of influence over you. But for whatever reason, for me, it slipped through the fingers and I was able to marry this man and be his first wife.
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Rachel Yucatel
So was he wealthy enough that he could impress your father and help your father?
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Pamela Jones
No, he, he was not wealthy. So there was a lot of problems there.
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Rachel Yucatel
Okay, got It. And you go ahead.
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Pamela Jones
And his father was one of the original five brothers. And there was some, some battle in authority and church, whatever back then. So, yeah, my mom was really unhappy about that. I think they didn't get a pretty penny for me, but I was determined and. And by reading through my story, you find out why I had chosen to marry him and to marry so quickly.
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Rachel Yucatel
Right.
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Pamela Jones
And that, that's because of my father's alcohol, alcoholism and his abuse. So it's very.
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Rachel Yucatel
You thought you were leaving a home of abuse and going to, you know, a place where you would find some love and affection.
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Pamela Jones
So when I chose the father and my kids or I chose who to be married to, the number one thing that I chose, why I chose them is because I noticed that his family did not go hu. So I was looking for someone that would be able to feed me, believe it or not. And so I thought, if I marry into this family, I'll never go hungry. So that's why I chose that. Okay. And then he was really good to kids and I, I thought he really loved kids. So being that my father was so abusive, I just thought if I can find someone that's kind to kids and that will feed me, then I've got, you know, the fairy tale.
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Rachel Yucatel
Right. Okay, so. And how old was he when you were 15?
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Pamela Jones
He was 21.
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Rachel Yucatel
Oh, okay. So not a terrible age difference. So you marry, you marry this guy. And how does it work in your religion? You don't have sex until you get married or what?
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Pamela Jones
Nope. You don't have sex till you're married. But if he would have had his way, we would have done it. But I was trying to get to heaven. So in my story, you find out that, you find out that he puts his arm around me and I'm still 14. And my father finds out and the price I paid for that was extreme. I thought that I would be, you know, from the perspective of where I am now and where I've been for a long time, I know my father never was going to kill me. But as a little girl, you believe they will. So I have to tell that truth as, as the little girl that I was. So at 15 or 14, when this guy puts his arm around my waist and I'm in trouble, he gives me a beating of my life, like lashing, a terrible beating. And I believe that he's going to take my life. Wow. So because of that, I decide the only way out is to get married. And so therefore, on that day, I decided, okay, I'm Going to get married. So he was the best thing I could choose for what was there. He wasn't married. He was younger. He's very handsome, very kind man. So I thought I was gonna walk off in the sunset, you know. And of course I knew he would have another wife at some point, but that was just so he could get to heaven, you know, I never thought he would be the womanizer he became, but, you know, at the time I was.
- [17:52]
Rachel Yucatel
Can you talk about the beliefs a little bit so that people don't understand cults in general or groups like this? So women are told that they are made to feel like they're a commodity. However, they cannot be promiscuous. Were there people who are promiscuous before they got married? And would they get in trouble?
- [18:10]
Pamela Jones
Yes, they would. They would get severe in trouble. I'd hear all kinds of beatings. They would be taken away. The girls would run away. There was a few girls that were quite rebellious back in that. But because I was so afraid of my father, I never dared. And as far as I knew, none of my sisters had. So I had like four sisters who had gotten married before me. But my father was just super strict. So the religion was. It's not like those fundamentalist churches you hear all through Utah where all these sister wives love each other and they have one big beautiful celestial family. The best way to describe it, it was just a bunch of people living monogamy. And this man just had all these individual marriages, you know, wow. Where. Where they kind of try to keep everything straight. They pin the women against each other. My father never truly provided or supported my mother. My mother had two jobs and she was on welfare and she provided for the kids. So the religion itself is kind of different than the way my father chose to live it. The religion itself is a man's to get married and then there to practice the Sarah. So his wives find him new wives and support him, and they become this one celestial beautiful family. Have all these children and they go to heaven. But that is not how my father lived it. And being that we lived in the time of the Mormon Manson, which his name is Herbal lebaron, there was so much secrecy and so much fear and hiding and murder. So to add that to the equation, my father's an alcoholic, I'm a little girl, don't understand all this stuff. So I remember when I would hear people talk about the religion, and I just thought no one had taken the time to ever teach me or show me why we were doing what we were Doing it was just what we did. I was being groomed to grow up and bless some other family and give them as many children and wives as I could. And that's all I knew. And in the meantime, we needed to stay away from herbal LeBaron.
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Rachel Yucatel
Got it. So was there a honeymoon phase? Was there a romantic phase? I mean, ultimately you have is nine children with the same man. Correct?
- [20:23]
Pamela Jones
Correct, yes, yes. So, yeah, for sure I had a honeymoon, I guess. I mean, I didn't know anything about sex as you can imagine. First of all, there's no tv. There's no way, you know, this is back in the late 70s, early 80s. There's, it's, you know, nowadays you just watch a Colgate commercial and you can kind of figure out the gist of a sexual encounter. But back then, you know, there wasn't, you know, there wasn't this familiarity about this. And then of course, my mother never talked about it. So I happened to fall upon a magazine that talked about a honeymoon night. And when I heard that you were going to be cupping something, you're going to be licking something else and moving, I threw the thing across the room and I thought, I will never do any of that. I am not going to go to hell. I'm a virtuous woman. And I was just tormented. Of course, curiosity got the best of me and I went and picked it back up and I read it again. But now thinking, you know, not now, today, but, you know, quite a few years later, it was quite explicit, but little innocent me. The way I understood it was something that I saw the chickens do. So I was prepared for that, I thought. Finally, finally I convinced myself, you know, he can do anything he wants, you know, because after all my father had trained me and taught me that my body belonged to whoever my husband was going to be. It did not belong to me, and it for sure in the heck belonged to nobody but him. In fact, the cult and the church taught that a woman was never to ever even have pleasure or experiment with anything. So I truly never even saw my bottom for I don't know how long because I was so afraid to go to hell. And thinking about it now, I laugh. But back then it was just so black and white and it was just this little girl is just. My whole story is about just trying to be good enough. First of all, good enough for God and good enough for my dad and then good enough for my husband. And you follow my journey and you see how I lear learn and figure that out. But yeah, religion itself was A very oppressive religion and women were to be seen not heard. I only existed to serve him. So when I left my mom's body and they said it's a girl, I had a whole list of what I could and couldn't do and all the privileges that were taken from me. And when then my ex husband left his mother's body, he had his list. And they said, boy, he had his list of all his privileges and he would eventually own me and my body.
- [22:56]
Rachel Yucatel
Right? That's incredible. I mean, it's one thing to grow up and feel like sex is taboo, and then it's another thing that you're now married and you, your body is for this man. So sex is on the table. Now how do you like disassociate? Because they're two opposing views. So now it's like to be sexual with a man. When you've grown up thinking sex is taboo, it must have been very difficult to get through, to ever enjoy, but also to feel good about your performance, I guess.
- [23:25]
Pamela Jones
Well, the problem was is that like you said, I, I was so trained that it was so bad and so evil. And then all of a sudden you say, I do, and now you're to engage. And I was so scared, I didn't understand it. And my mother was very private, so she never talked to me about it, nor did my sisters. Whenever I think about that little girl, maybe that's why I'm really open about this stuff with my granddaughters, my daughters, and any woman I can talk to. But it's like understanding your body and embrac. Loving the woman that you are. And it took me a long time before I could ever even begin to even fathom any of that because it was such a training that caused such rejection. Like you're in your body, you're feeling certain things, but that's of the devil. And so how would you navigate that? So I went on a year for years trying to figure that out. And then my ex husband, of course they use polygamy or other women and all of this against you. So you're forever battling and trying to be good enough. And I remember when I finally had the courage to ask him, you know, I just thought, you know, I know you'll have otherwise, but, you know, I just wanted him to tell me that if it wasn't for the religion, he would be content with me. And he told me, oh no, I would never be content with you. So my journey was trying to figure out and, and learn that me just the way that I was, was Good enough. And it was quite the story. So when it comes to the intimate part, truly, it was nightmare. And I can say I was married to him for 19 years, and there was no pleasure, no joy whatsoever. And my kids are going to listen to this. And I'm sorry. I love that I got such beautiful children from the act, but there was none, because by the time you figured out first I thought I would be. I was possessed by a demon. If I ever thought I felt an orgasm coming on, oh, my God. That was the spirit of the devil. Right? So you're fighting against that. And it's. And it was such a crazy situation. But. But looking back, he would say, oh, you and your problems. Like, I mean, I don't know how deep your. Your show goes, so I'll try to be candid on how I say these things. But anything that the body does when you're in the act of that kind of stuff. If my body responded in any which way. And it can be just going from maybe you're a little more lubricated than you were without saying it.
- [25:43]
Rachel Yucatel
Yeah, go ahead.
- [25:44]
Pamela Jones
So that. So if that's going on, something's wrong with you. And he would tell me, something's wrong with you and you and your problems. And so I really thought that I had a problem because I was a sensual woman and whatever it was that I was born with, and he just wanted to destroy that. He wanted to snuff it out. He wanted to say it wasn't so and he loved me, but he didn't understand me. And I sure couldn't help him because I didn't understand myself at all either. And my father had trained me since I was very young, that my body belonged to him, and I only existed for one purpose and one purpose only, and that was for him. So then you throw a bunch of other women in there, then you're sitting on the shelf. And then at that point, when I'm starting to figure things out, why I'm too ding. What is the word? I don't want to share this girl with him. I don't. He has all.
- [26:34]
Rachel Yucatel
He.
- [26:34]
Pamela Jones
No, he just has all these other women. And I just felt like it was tarnishing me. So the way I protected myself is, you'll never have my heart. You'll never have this body. So I kept it to myself, which I thought was genius of me, because I. It saved me for a lot of wonderful things that were to come after my escape. But on the other hand, it. It showed me that I loved him. I was Loyal to him, but he never had. I tell this to my children. I said, your daddy never had this girl. He had the one that made you your mom. Yeah, he had her, but he's never had this woman. And I feel like the journey to rediscovering myself and healing was amazing. I had no idea that I was on that journey when I escaped the cult. Obviously I was was escaping to survive. And I believed I would be murdered at some point because of the blood atonement and the belief of the cult.
- [27:24]
Rachel Yucatel
Right, okay, wait, so I want to get into that. So you have nine children with this. With your. The father of your kids. You're married. You don't leave till you're 35. Right. You finally escape at 35, but in between there. So we thought it might be a love story. You're figuring out your body. It just gets worse and worse. And how do you know whether or not you want to escape the marriage or escape the cult? Like, at what point did you have the decision of, like, wait, this whole thing is terrible.
- [27:47]
Grainger Advertiser
Terrible?
- [27:48]
Pamela Jones
Well, the way I like to tell people, I. Regardless of where we're born, regardless what happens to us, there's a knowing. We all are born with this innate knowing. Like, and I kind of just knew that there was something more out there, but I didn't understand because I'd look around, nothing in my life made sense to what I was feeling. So as I'm growing, getting older, and I'm watching and I'm learning and I'm, you know, having the children, and I'm trying to live this celestial marriage. I delivered his babies. I got him these. Why or helped him get these wives. And I had a great relationship, relationship with them. And there's so much to the story. And I was really devoted to the belief and trying to get us all into heaven. But internally, there was a knowing that something was wrong. And I tried to put that off, but as time went on, I couldn't deny it. And so I started, you know, asking the questions as to why was thinking certain things or feeling certain things. And I remember, I look out at the stars. It's so cliche now when I think about it. There was some darn cartoon that came out, and they would sing that song somewhere out there beneath the pale moonlight, whatever that song is. I would hear that song in my head, and I just knew that there was something out there coming my way. But I never imagined it would be divorced. I never imagined that I would be able to escape or get away. But internally, I'm starting to get stronger and stronger. And I'm throwing away all these parts of this beliefs. Like, these are silly things, but, oh, if you eat garlic, that will keep the evil spirits away or whatever the hell they thought.
- [29:16]
Rachel Yucatel
But what made you know that they were so silly? Like, were you able to see TV now or read things where you. You finally had some knowledge and understanding or what happened?
- [29:27]
Pamela Jones
There was no TV because we weren't to have tv. And not only that, they didn't allow me to mingle with my family anymore. So I was solely stuck in science camp and in his cult. But, I mean, I had gone to school until I went up to fifth grade in San Diego, California. So I had been to school. I had seen another world. I'd seen TV back when I lived with my mom in California. I watched TV all the time. So I knew of that world. So it's not. It's like I was. And I had gone to school, so I was educated. So I felt like that itself was what planted the seeds, that there was a whole nother world out there. And I loved the United States and I detested Mexico. So I always felt like I was a misfit. So I think I was. There was a longing. I started checking into that more like it wasn't things that were happening around me per se. It was more of an internal thing that went on. And now I'm seeing my children growing and they're going out, you know, in the colony, trying to build friendships. And there's just so many things that are causing us to reevaluate the belief. Because there was no way they could sustain this belief that I only existed for his purpose, and he's never there.
- [30:36]
Rachel Yucatel
But within that.
- [30:38]
Pamela Jones
That.
- [30:38]
Rachel Yucatel
Well, first of all, did you love it when he was never there? Were you fine?
- [30:42]
Pamela Jones
No, I wasn't. I missed him all the time.
- [30:44]
Rachel Yucatel
Really?
- [30:45]
Pamela Jones
Yeah, I did. I. I actually loved the darn guard guy, doggone it, as best as a little girl could. I mean, after what my father had put me through, he was a walk in the park. And I knew that he was victim to the belief as much as I was. He just happened to be male. It's not like he was this horrible.
- [31:03]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay, so he wasn't terrible to you. He just obviously was not the right guy for you.
- [31:07]
Pamela Jones
He was not terrible to me, but the religion and the belief was terrible. But he wasn't terrible to me. He was. He was good to me. I was. Believe it or not, I was his favorite. It sounds stupid to say that I was his favorite. But heck sakes, I worked hard to be his favorite. But either way it didn't matter. I was his first wife.
- [31:25]
Rachel Yucatel
But was divorced allowed in your religion?
- [31:28]
Pamela Jones
It happened, but it was definitely something frowned on, especially because, you know, they, they taught that if a woman left a man, God would take away her career heads and she would go straight to hell.
- [31:38]
Rachel Yucatel
Oh, geez. Okay, so at what point. Take me back to the moment where you said, we started to make the plan and you said, okay, I'm not going to be murdered if I leave or tell me how it worked for you.
- [31:49]
Pamela Jones
So as, as times were getting harder and harder. He's marrying hard women, women that come with a lot of baggage, with a lot of filth. And I kept thinking, I didn't sign up for this. I am not going to be in this situation. One thing is when you're doing it for the Lord, then when this man is sleeping with women before they're married. And there was things that were happening that I decided no longer that the price was too high to pay. This was not the truth. So that was the first thing that happened. But I stayed because of the kids. I thought I got, you know, I don't want to break up the family. You're just scared, where will I go? You know, I had no education, I had no money.
- [32:22]
Rachel Yucatel
I had. How were you making money?
- [32:24]
Pamela Jones
I didn't make money. I was a stay at home mom full time though the time that I was, I would teach like Spanish or. I'm sorry, I teach English to the little kindergarten. Spanish children give a couple of bucks or I teach, teach dance or I was making cheese and I would do little things constantly to make money. And no matter what I would do, he would come in and destroy it. Because every time I got made a little money, I got independent. He didn't like that. So then he'd come and get rid of whatever it was I was doing. But he had a big family. He couldn't be there every day. You know what did I see him one day out of every seven or six days.
- [32:56]
Rachel Yucatel
But explain that to me because again, there's no comparison to sister wives. But like, what the hell are these guys thinking? How do they support all these kids? Mouths, women, homes. I don't get it. How do. What is. What did that guy do for a living?
- [33:09]
Pamela Jones
So in Mexico, you're in a colony, everybody's living like this. So it's a community, first of all. Second of all, they have big farms and ranches. They make really good money. My ex husband was wealthy For Mexico, in the United States, probably apples to apples, the numbers wouldn't sound right, but for what numbers can do in Mexico, the money can do in Mexico, a lot can get done. So he was wealthy, I believe back then. He'd live on like $35,000 a year. And I thought he was way wealthy back then. So this is like what, 35 years ago or whatever.
- [33:43]
Rachel Yucatel
So he wouldn't give you any money, but he would pay the rent or the food, and there was no rent.
- [33:48]
Pamela Jones
We owned our home, so. And we had gardens, we had goats, we had whatever with gardens. He bought, went grocery shopping for the few things we didn't have. They didn't believe in doctors, so everything was natural. Garlic enema, mud packs, whatever the hell.
- [34:02]
Rachel Yucatel
Did you have your children? Not in a hospital.
- [34:04]
Pamela Jones
I had. So I had nine children. My first child was placenta previa emergency C section. So I was 16. I was rushed into the hospital and had him. And then my fourth child was born in the hospital. The rest were born at home with no drugs. No. No. Heaven's sakes, no. So they were born at home and he became a midwife himself. And then I became a midwife because my father was a midwife. So I delivered a lot of my, my, his children. And that was just the, the belief of the cult. Like every. Everybody was like all organic and healthy and they had like the storehouse and they had, you know, all these different ways that everybody blessed everybody and they, they made good money. And actually if you ever were to go down there, now they're multi millionaires. Like blow your mind. The wealth that's in that town. I've. It's like nothing you've ever seen.
- [34:54]
Rachel Yucatel
So people are still in this cult there?
- [34:56]
Pamela Jones
Oh, yes, thousands.
- [34:57]
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- [36:28]
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- [38:05]
Pamela Jones
Thousands and thousands. Yes.
- [38:06]
Rachel Yucatel
Wait, I want to go back to the childbirth for a second. And you had a lot of problems as well, correct? Did you have eight miscarriages? Did I read that?
- [38:14]
Pamela Jones
Yes, I did have. I was Pregnant a total of 17 times. And I had seven miscarriages. And then my oldest daughter, which is my third child, I was 20, well just shy of 20 when I gave birth to her. And she was a twin. So during giving birth to her, the other parts was just the placenta and the bag, whatever was left from the other pregnancy. So it wasn't a miscarriage. But definitely there was something going on there. But yeah, I'm. They didn't believe in doctors and I was always left alone. And you're out on this third world country without houses and I mean it's. I'm surprised we got through it as well as we did. They didn't believe in doctors. So you know, if the kids broke their arm or whatever, they do the typical move, my fingers, how many fingers, blah, blah, blah. Oh, you're fine, you're fine. You know, it was constantly and, and the belief, and it's in my book I talk about the belief was that that you know, if God decreed you to get hurt, you would. And so they put everything on God. So if anybody died or got hurt or anything, it was God's will. And there's a lot of death in that group, a lot of death. And so you can imagine there's horror stories about people getting electroc and drowning and building a sand castle. These kids are in a caves and just all kinds of things that you wouldn't think that would happen, but it's because they, they just, they're superior than any other human on earth. And if God wants them to live, then he'll protect them. And they can. Do they have 9 year olds driving trucks running over children all the time? It's just the way the cult is ran. So you don't know anything different at the time. But to answer your question, as I'm growing and getting smarter and getting, you know, stronger and realizing that, that there's something more than this, then I decide that I. I want to leave, but I don't know how to put it together. Right. I'm so oppressed and I have no support. No one's ever left the cult and got away. And.
- [40:08]
Rachel Yucatel
Oh, that's what I was gonna ask. And no one before you, you had never heard of this happening where it worked?
- [40:11]
Pamela Jones
No. And if someone did leave, the. The threat was that they could be in danger of the blood atonement, which is they could be murdered. Murdered.
- [40:19]
Rachel Yucatel
Right.
- [40:20]
Pamela Jones
So they hang that over our head all the time talking about this blood atonement. And you're so afraid of that.
- [40:25]
Rachel Yucatel
Right.
- [40:25]
Pamela Jones
And anyway, so the way I got the strength to leave is my. My second son. He was 16, and he's going to get his braces on. And we're at my house and we're talking, and I see a puddle of water accumulating on this cement floor, which has mud in it by the time you lived in the middle of a dirt hole. So there's mud everywhere anyways, and I see, like, this puddle, and I realize he's crying. So I get real, real close to him and I put him in my arms and I say, son, it's going to be okay. They'll. They'll numb your mouth. You won't feel it when they pull your teeth, whatever I'm telling about these braces. And he says, no, mom, it's you. I can't handle seeing you this anymore. And what. Seeing you this way anymore. And when he said that, then something internally changed in me. And all of a sudden, I realized by staying that my children were suffering. And that if I stayed, my five beautiful daughters would be just like him. I'm sorry. Just like me. And my four sons would be just like him. And that was a. I was not willing to pay. And that's when I finally had the strength to leave. And it took my children to actually wake me up to that, because when it came to me, I would suffer anything for the kids. And I kept thinking, oh, you got. You just have to suffer. You just have to go through this.
- [41:36]
Rachel Yucatel
Well, what do you think they saw in you? Like, were you sitting around crying all day? I mean, it sounds like you're the strongest fucking woman that I know. I mean, that's incredible, these stories you're telling me just for giving birth to all these children and all these things that could have gone wrong and did go wrong and doing it a lot by yourself and birthing other people. I'm quite frankly shocked you didn't become a midwife on the outside, and that's what you do for a living or go become a doctor. Like, that's incredible. Yep.
- [42:03]
Pamela Jones
I delivered 25 babies on my own. And then I wanted to get educated because then I realized the risk. You know, God can do so much, but we need to be educated and responsible. And I wanted to have something in. In my arsenal of knowledge and case a baby was coming, tangled or breached first or whatever, all the things that happened. So I come to my then husband and say, I want to go get educated. And he absolutely said, there's no way. And so inside I thought, then, I won't deliver babies Because I'm not going to deliver a child without this. This full knowledge and experience and have a baby die. And then I have to live with that guilt. I'm not willing to do it. So I stopped delivering baby. Babies. Wow. And I never picked it back up, which I'm glad I didn't, because it would have been, you know, quite a different life for me than what I did do. Ended up creating such success. But at the time, you don't. You don't know. But. Yeah, so. So the belief then was that women were there for men and men only. And then when I finally. And you're gonna. I think you'll think this is interesting. So I was so brainwashed that I would die the day I tried to leave him, that I decided. Decided I take that risk. So I started my planning and I was conniving. According to me, I. I took a check out of his checkbook that he didn't know was missing. And I wrote it out to gas up the vehicles that I had. And I found some credit cards that had my name on it. I'd never gotten a credit card in my life, but he. He owned me so he could pull things out in my name. And. And I found out he had him, and I found out how much money was on him, so I grabbed those credit cards and one had $400, one had a thousand two hundred. I thought I'd be able to live a couple of years on that. I mean, I was in. Oh, my gosh. We got the money, right? And his belief was to starve a woman out. His father taught all his sons that if you can train a horse, you can have a wife. And you need to keep her wanting for everything. So anything I possibly could need, he kept me wanting. Just enough to keep me alive, but wanting. And if he could have limited in my air to limits, he would have. He limited my water, my food, my shelter. Everything was so limited. And I had to keep coming to him and say, I need more. I mean, I have, you know, eight kids. Kids and whatever was going on. And he'd give me, you know, if I needed, you know, I don't know, five loaves of bread, he'd give me three, you know, whatever it was. Right.
- [44:22]
Rachel Yucatel
You had to make do with what.
- [44:24]
Pamela Jones
You had is I had to make do with what I had. And he made sure it was never enough. And it was not because he was poor, he was wealthy. It was to keep me in control. And that was how he was trained. But little did he know is that the. The More and more he tried to control and take from me the stronger I got. And he couldn't hold me down. I just started, you know, using my creativity. And it felt funny and it truly is. Almost everything I touch would turn to gold. Gold. He brought me this old cow. Her name was Betsy. And I. Sometimes I'm embarrassed when I tell these stories because they sound like they're way back in the Little House on the Prairie days. But they bring me this cow, her name is Betsy. And she would give me five gallons of milk in the morning and five gallons of milk in the evening. And I would milk her, right? And then I'd make cheese and sell cheese, and she freaking adored me. And I just loved her. And I'd go out there and I'd be milking her and I'd be crying. You know, the heartache, you know, whatever the. Was going on in my life, whether I couldn't see my mom and I missed her or was tired of going without her. I was exhausted and I had no help. I didn't have water, didn't have a washing machine, whatever I was going through. And I'd be milking her, crying. I think she felt that. So she just give me her all. And I would take that milk, make cheese, butter or whatever, and pretty soon I'd make money. And then he'd get mad and he'd take her from me. And as time would go on, no matter what I had, I. It would just produce. And I was able to provide and supplement for my children. And then for his kids as well. Well. But it was. It was so much. So much fun. So, of course, like I said, he took her from me because she was so great. And he gave him to his brother. And that would happen all the time. You'd wake up one day and all sudden your house wasn't yours. He had traded it to one of his brothers for something else. That's how I ended up in the sheep pen, is he traded our home for something and they gave him a sheet pen. And that became my first home after that. But anyways, so he took her from me and she died three days later. Later. And I just honestly believe she died of a broken heart. I believe she missed me. I really do. But anyways, some people get puppies, some get cats. I guess I had a cow. But it's very cool. Very cool.
- [46:34]
Rachel Yucatel
Sorry to hear how she died. That's true.
- [46:36]
Pamela Jones
It's 40 years ago.
- [46:38]
Rachel Yucatel
Yeah. But still, I mean, I still think about my dogs from when I'm younger. And it Breaks my heart to this day. Okay, so I want to talk about that moment of telling the kids, leaving the house, going across the border. How did that happen?
- [46:53]
Pamela Jones
So I decide I'm leaving and my children are not American citizens. I am. And one of my daughters was born in Utah, but the rest aren't. And my oldest son has gone to the United States to work. He's in Denver, Colorado. That's what way it is. The boys, the children grow up, you know, get old enough and they ship them off to the United States. They start working and providing and for their family.
- [47:13]
Rachel Yucatel
So interesting. So they don't have to stay within the community. They go live real lives.
- [47:20]
Pamela Jones
They go off to United States and they start making money.
- [47:22]
Rachel Yucatel
Just the boys.
- [47:23]
Pamela Jones
Just the boys.
- [47:24]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay.
- [47:25]
Pamela Jones
So my son had left home and he's like, I think he's 17, going to be 18. So he left home already. And I'm brokenhearted to lose my boy. Anyway, so I decide to leave and I start my plan running. So this is so cute. So I realized his tech, his technique is to keep me pregnant if he can keep me pregnant. He always told me, if I can keep you pregnant, that will buy me two years. You got to be pregnant for nine months. And then you breastfeeding, you have a new baby. And before you start thinking for yourself and wanting, you know, to you're stronger and you become difficult, you're pregnant again. So he'd carry around this little notebook in his pocket where he would keep in code, according to him, all of his wife's. Wife's menstrual cycles. And there was codes and there was dates. Like he knew when everybody was ovulating, when everything was going on. So I felt like, okay, if I'm going to get away, I need to make sure I don't get pregnant. And he was not going to allow me to go on any kind of rhythm or even abstinence. He wouldn't allow it. He had to keep his wife's pregnant. So I got the courage and bought some spermicide. I think it's so funny when I think about it now, but I got rebellious and I was out in the United States, something. And I talked to a girlfriend and she told me about some kind of suppository that's a spermicide. And I went and bought like seven boxes of it. When I think about it now, how much sex did I think I was going to have? But anyways, I just wanted to be prepared, according to me. Right.
- [48:57]
Rachel Yucatel
And he never found this in your home or anything?
- [48:59]
Pamela Jones
No, no. So I brought it home. He would have never expected that I would have done something like that ever.
- [49:06]
Rachel Yucatel
So normally, would it take a long time for you to get pregnant or he just has to have sex with you once and you would get.
- [49:11]
Pamela Jones
I was so I get pregnant so easy. I didn't never knew how. He figured it out. Later I put it together, he had this book, he charted it all, got it, keep it. He could keep it so straight. So some people ask like, you know, how, how do you have sex with this many women and have all these babies and figure it out? Well, they were keeping it all charted and he would, he would save himself for the ones that needed get to pregnant, if that makes sense. So he, he didn't do the full. It's not full Monty, it's full. He wouldn't complete his act on every wife. He saved himself. He saved his seed for the woman that had to get pregnant. So that's how he was able to figure it out. Some people think, oh, they're just having all the sex. No, they weren't really. They were keeping track of all these women's cycles. And back then they didn't have an app, you know, where you could just punch this stuff in there. He had to do it in a way that he keep track. And I remember mine was like a weird looking, kind of starish thing. That was my cycle. I could see it through there. He wasn't that clever. It'd be an R, which is my nickname, Marina, and there'd be some weird star. And then I noticed that these stars started showing up right after my period. And I think, how? Well you know, the dates and times, you know, within the 10 days, there it was. And I think, and what is he doing? And sure enough, he would figure it out.
- [50:32]
Rachel Yucatel
So. Okay. And you said he was coming to the house once a week or so. Right. So did you know, did you know to leave right after he left the house? Because then you'd had seven days before he realized you were gone. Or how did you plan this?
- [50:42]
Pamela Jones
Nope. So I told him I needed a vacation. He was trying to date another woman. He had just had some stuff with his brother's wife, which is really interesting. Later I found out that they had been sleeping together before marriage. But at the time I. Evidently he knew he was doing that. And I, I wasn't, I wasn't supporting him. I was his first wife. I was causing him a lot of trouble. So then I told him, hey, let me go get a vacation. I just need a vacation. I need to get out of here for a little while. And then when I come home, I'll get in check and do everything you're asking me for. So he thought he'd let me have this vacation. He wasn't going to finance it. So I wouldn't be gone for very long. And if I. He said, if you can figure it out, you can go. Well, he didn't know that I was planning to escape, to get away. So I did have his permission, but. But. And I was planning to leave.
- [51:27]
Rachel Yucatel
Got it.
- [51:28]
Pamela Jones
So I had figured all the little things I needed to figure out. I had started the process to get my.
- [51:33]
Rachel Yucatel
Know where you were going?
- [51:34]
Pamela Jones
Yeah, he knew I was going to Utah. That's where he would do his pine harvest. And he would go up there and I had a. One of his sisters I ended up raising and she was married and lived up there. So I would. Was able to go see her. According.
- [51:49]
Rachel Yucatel
They were all still part of this cult.
- [51:52]
Pamela Jones
Yes, they were.
- [51:52]
Rachel Yucatel
Group whatever. What do you call it?
- [51:54]
Pamela Jones
It's a cult.
- [51:55]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay.
- [51:55]
Pamela Jones
I call it a cult. They call it the God's people. I don't know what they call it anymore. But anyway, so yeah, I just. I just went on over on this vacation and I knew I was leaving and I thought if they find out I'm leaving, it's going to be over. They'll take my life.
- [52:13]
Rachel Yucatel
So what did it mean to you to leave? First of all, did you go with all of your kids?
- [52:18]
Pamela Jones
I did.
- [52:18]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay.
- [52:19]
Pamela Jones
And I.
- [52:20]
Rachel Yucatel
And. And to leave, did it mean that you just were going to announce you're not coming back or you had to like, disappear?
- [52:27]
Pamela Jones
I knew he feared the law in the United States. So the only thing I could see is if I could get across that border, then I would be okay because I was an American citizen. And I knew he feared the law of the land. And he. They do a lot of crooked stuff down there. And I knew that if I threatened anything that I knew about that kind of stuff, he be too afraid to do anything to me. But I had to get across that border. So the hardest thing for me was on the escape was to get across that border. And I never knew at what point he would find out that I had gone and then send, you know, I didn't know who he would send after me. Send the men of the church, send his brothers, you know. And he told me he would plaster wanted posters of me all over at the board order and claiming that I kidnapped his children. And he had all this brainwashing stuff so to paint the Picture for you. I finally decide I'm leaving. I'm trying to fix the kids papers and I can't get them fixed. So I decided, okay, just go. I'll go to the American Council in Juarez and see if they have the kids papers. So that was the first thing I was going to do. And we had no food because he had gotten mad and went in and took all my food out of the house. So we had obviously turnips and carrots in the garden. So. And I had goats that I can milk, so it's not like we were starving. But still, I was so bone thin and still breastfeeding my baby at the time. So that morning I get up and I tell the kids we're going on vacation. So they don't know what's going on. Now, if you talk to my daughters or then they say they. They kind of saw something. But at the time they didn't. I didn't tell them. So I just get in the Plymouth Voyage van and my son has a Toyota truck and he's following behind me. And I. I take. At that point, I only had eight of the kids and we're leaving. I didn't know what I was doing. I just stepped on the gas. And they had me so convinced that God would kill me that when I went to leave my house. And this sometimes used to make me emotional. So I always. It's always like a little checker check. What do you call it? Like a check mark, to see how far I've come when I can tell the story and realize it doesn't pain me. But I was so brainwashed that I would die. And I really believed that I would. That at some point either God would kill me. I mean, so many people had died in the cult for so many weird reasons. I mean, it would cost him nothing to have a car accident, take all my children. And I believe that. And I just thought, okay, Lord, that day, which I think is kind of funny. I ground my baby, I put her on my hip. Obviously, I spotless my house. If anybody knows me, I'm just a perfectionist. So my cupboards, my. Everything was spotless. I cleaned up my beautiful home. And I thought, if I'm dying today, I'm gonna leave this place with a clear, clean house and a clear conscience. I had done everything could have. And so I. I have it out with God. And I really did. I. It was. I remember the moon was out and. And I look up at him, wherever you think God is at that time, and I just tell him hey, you know, I'm leaving and until I see you, until I meet you, I. I'm going to keep going. And we'll talk about this when I do. And if you're going to take my life, then take my life now. Like I told him, take my life now. I didn't care. But I was not going to stay and raise my kids there. So I. I stick my foot out the screen door onto outside and look around and nothing happens. I'm scared. And then I go a little further and nothing happens. And then the door closes and I. And I'm breathing and I'm fine. I know God can do things strike you by lightning. That's what they tell me. And I would just say when we meet, we'll talk about this, but until you kill me, I'm going to keep going. Got in the car and this harrowing as a stage sounds to get away. And what is so funny, Rachel, is that I did die that day. But I didn't understand what kind of death it was. Is that silent, meek, obedient, fearful, hungry, scared little girl did die. And in her place was me. And I never imagined that. That's what I feared it. And I think this happens to a lot of us. We fear our greatness. And at the time in my little mind, I just thought, well, I fear they'll do the blood atonement. They'll take my life. I'll die. You know, that's what I thought. But the truth was I was afraid of the great woman that I could be. I had never seen what she could do. I didn't know that I'd be able to take on these nine kids and raise and support and carry the. The burden of parenthood and healing all by myself. I didn't know. All I could focus on was getting over that threshold without being struck by lightning. And when I was open my eyes, I was still alive. I got in the car and I just kept going. And now looking back and it happened almost immediately. Immediately I realized that that little girl that day, in a way that. And in her place was me. And I. I can't believe that I was so lucky to have had that experience. Even as scary as it was and this. I had no education. And lots of times I think what was she thinking? Logically, there was no logic. There was no way I could have pre organized or planned anything that happened in my. My whole life. And I tell this story to people when I was in the cult. They would take away could from you, but from me, I'll Say, but they never could mess with my imagination. And I could imagine anything I wanted. I could imagine I was the princess of so and so or whatever little girls think, or as I got older, you know, all the things that I could imagine. And I had a great imagination. And in my wildest imagination, Rachel, I never could have imagined the life that I live. Never could have ever even fathomed them, that this would be me internally and externally, anything about the woman that I am. And some people ask me, well, how did you start to heal from all of that false teaching and brainwashing? Well, I was overwhelmed. So I did what I imagine any woman does. I first decided to establish truth. So I looked down between my legs and I said, yeah, I have a hoo ha. I am a woman. Okay, we got that covered. What's next? And I just kept on going. And anything that didn't align with who I was as a woman, like, this doesn't feel good, or I'm not going to eat burnt toast because my hair is not going to grow, or I hate the smell of garlic. We're not. Whatever these little things. And. And then it would get into bigger beliefs and teachings, and my body belongs to, you know, a man. And then I would think, okay, why did I. Why do I have all these desires? Why do I have a heart? Why do I have passion? Why do I dream? I. Why do I. Why do I do all the things that I do if it all belongs to man? And then I started putting it together. So what really helped me to undo all the doing that I had been through was looking and learning about who I was and what aligned with that. And I still do do that to this day.
- [59:25]
Rachel Yucatel
Right. So at what point did you know that you were out, that it was over? Like, did he contact you? Was he able to find you? Did he send people after you? Or did you never hear from him again?
- [59:36]
Pamela Jones
So, nope, I. I got across the border, I went into the United States. And then, of course, he found a way to get a hold of me, and he thought I was just on a little vacation. So up until Easter Sunday, that I was at a park with. With family members that were there in Utah, and I. His brother was there, and he got a phone call. So he brought me the phone over, and he says, david wants to talk to you. So I got on the phone, I told him it was over. And then he just told me, don't do anything, you know, stupid. I'll be there in a few weeks. Whatever, whatever. And I said, nope, it's Over. I'm done. So according to the belief, you have to go six months with, which is so silly, but anyways, you have to go six months without thinking of another man or dating another man, and your husband's supposed to win you back. So he had six months to win me back and he never did.
- [60:26]
Rachel Yucatel
Got it? He never did because you never let him or he never did because he.
- [60:29]
Pamela Jones
Never, he just, he just never. He couldn't convince me. He never realized how smart I was. I don't think he had any idea who I was. And I remember one of his techniques was, he's going to build me this new house and he was going to take me on this honeymoon. And all the stuff he's telling me and I'm smiling. I said, I was married to you for 19 years. I earned that. And you never gave it to me. You sure not going to give it to me now. And I don't want it.
- [60:50]
Rachel Yucatel
And he never tried to grab the kids and go, were you living at his sister's house at this time?
- [60:55]
Pamela Jones
I ended up renting my own place. I was. I was in Utah for three weeks and rented my own place and started cleaning houses and my son started working. So I had my own place. And he was just so naive. He never thought, he never in a million years thought. He didn't know who I was or what I was capable of. He had no idea. He just thought that I was spiritual and he, he would convince me. But I remember one day he just told me this big old story about how, you know, I mistreated you. And he was trying to get me to come back. And I told him, look, you, your, your sister in law ended up with my husband because he'd married his sister in law. And I said, and your cousin ended up with my husband. I said, said, and that's, that's great. And I said, but in the process, I found me and I ended up with me. So I win. And I just thought it's, it's not for negotiation or discussion or nothing. I couldn't. I. I found myself and I would never go back. And I think it shocked the heck out of him. Right?
- [61:50]
Rachel Yucatel
And then how does that work in the future? Like, can he see? Could. Was he able to see his kids? Were, were they. Did he bring them back to Mexico? Like, how did that work?
- [61:59]
Pamela Jones
He could have seen the kids anytime he wanted to, but he didn't know how to see the kids. The only way he knew how to see the kids is if he had something to do with me. And if he wasn't having something to do with me, he had no use for the kids. He had, I don't know. At the time he had probably 25 kids. I don't know how many for sure. I could do the math.
- [62:13]
Rachel Yucatel
So it's not like he wanted to grab them all and bring them back. Cuz who was going to take care.
- [62:17]
Pamela Jones
Of them and all if he wouldn't? Who was going to take care of. None of his wives wanted him and they sure in the hell didn't want me back. They were glad to get rid of me. They'd have, you know, a little more time for themselves. And of course, course I was his favorite, right? I'm just kidding you.
- [62:29]
Rachel Yucatel
But do you think that other people watching you disappear, leave, make it out alive with nine others, did other women or people start to leave the cult?
- [62:41]
Pamela Jones
It. That's exactly what happened. So after I was gone for probably nine months or so and then obviously starting my business and people, women especially, realizing that, that it wasn't true that God did not strike me with lightning or I was able to start making my own money, provide for my family, women started leaving right and left. And I would get phone calls all the time. And I've helped several women start businesses since they've come to the United States and set. I feel like I set a pretty good example because I ended up living through it. And not only living, but thriving. And so all this, you know, I like to tell the story that my husband told me, the husband that I'm with now, he would talk about this horse that he had and he would bring it into the corral and he'd put up this rope and then the horse would stay in his pen and as time would go on, he would take the rope off and the horse wouldn't even know he'd take it to the pen. The horse never left. It was so used to that rope. And that's kind of how I feel the cult was, is that there was this invisible rope when someone like me broke through and said, you can get through and there really is nothing that's going to stop you. There's no invisible block or whatever it is, you can do that. And I think once I went, went and, and showed that then I, I women left, Ryan left. In fact, every single one of his brothers have gotten divorced. Most of them lost all their wives after I left.
- [64:03]
Rachel Yucatel
So you, you ultimately ended up in Minnesota. Why Minnesota, by the way?
- [64:07]
Pamela Jones
Yes, I'm in Prior Lake. Okay, but why, why by Minnesota? So my oldest son Was here in Prior Lake. I'm sorry, in Minnesota. And they were building homes with some families that were up here. And then my second son was leaving and coming this way, and I just thought, I don't want to be without my children. And so I just followed behind them. And it was quite the story. So I left in February of 2021 and came to Minnesota and had a. What they call it, jackknife accident. I was pulling a U Haul and it was quite the story. But we made it here and. And then I started my business when I was here.
- [64:47]
Rachel Yucatel
So did you start your. Did you. You did the cleaning service while you were in Utah though, still, right?
- [64:52]
Pamela Jones
I had a few clients in Utah, but it wasn't a business. It was just a few people that knew me and I was doing so.
- [64:59]
Rachel Yucatel
But for timeframe, I want people to realize. So you escaped in 2000. In 2000, right.
- [65:05]
Pamela Jones
Correct.
- [65:06]
Rachel Yucatel
So you're saying you relocated to Minnesota just five years ago?
- [65:11]
Pamela Jones
No, February of 2001.
- [65:14]
Rachel Yucatel
2001. Oh, excuse me, I thought you said 21.
- [65:16]
Pamela Jones
Okay, I'm sorry. No. Yeah.
- [65:18]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay. So it's been 25 years that you have been out and living in Minnesota. I want people to hear this, though. You relocated to Minnesota with no work history, essentially no financial literacy, no formal education. You had to learn how to function independently, how to make decisions without permission, and you had to figure out what freedom even meant while having kids and providing for all of them. I mean, it's an incredible story. And what, when doing research about you this, I highlighted this at the time that you escaped. You had signed your name only nine times, once on each of your children's birth certificates. I find that fascinating.
- [66:00]
Pamela Jones
I got the chills. Like I tell the story when, when a woman's expecting, how do we see it? Oh, you know, if she doesn't find out the gender, she's like, o, if I have a little girl, I'll have two daughters and one center, whatever the story is. And she pictures the pink this and whatever she's going to do and then the doctors and the little bag she's going to take with her when the, you know, she pictures everything she's going to do to have this baby. However that plays out, when I was pregnant, on top of picturing a new boy or girl, whatever I was going to have, I would sit out in the dirt because I wasn't allowed to have a pencil or paper because women were not to be educated. My ex husband hates, hated the fact that I was ever curious or wanted to Read. He'd say, why are you doing that? You. You don't need to do that. You're my wife. You just need to have kids. Serve me. You don't need all that. So I would sit out on the dirt, and I would practice signing my name in the sand. Handwriting the way I'd remembered it from fifth grade or wherever I was taught how to handwrite back then. They taught it, and I had practiced Pamela Jones, and that was part of my preparation for when the child was born, because I had to sign their birth certificate. And it such an emotional and hard thing to do because I was so scared, because it was so legal and so final. And I had to sign my name on there. I mean, there's people that would just do their thumbprint and they would put an X on there. I was just a step above that and the cult. And so when I had escaped the cult, I had only signed my name nine times in my life, whereas now I sign my name hundreds and thousands of times.
- [67:32]
Rachel Yucatel
I know, it's incredible. All right, tell people really briefly how. Okay, so you start. Started cleaning homes out of necessity now. Now you founded a company that you've built with your children, your daughters, or all of them.
- [67:47]
Pamela Jones
So. Not all my daughters. One of my daughters, my oldest daughter, she works in. AI has this wonderful company that she put together. She's a little entrepreneur. She's always working, creating. She's been wonderful. Quite the inspiration. I have four of my daughters work with me and one them of my sons. And then I have 45 employees. And I do the hard stuff, like, the stuff that they don't like, the scarier stuff, but they really just make sure it runs smoothly. And as I mentioned before, I'm a perfectionist. So I'm really strict with anything I put my name on, with training, the. The quality. And I feel like that that's a gift that I was born with. And then for someone who's still doing.
- [68:29]
Rachel Yucatel
The cleaning yourself, or are you managing it now?
- [68:31]
Pamela Jones
Oh, I don't do. I don't do anything when it comes to cleaning. No, I haven't cleane. I haven't cleaned in probably 15 years. And I don't run the company. I have a beautiful warehouse. I have a huge laundry mat I put in there. We do. You can. It's. It's a thing that you can't imagine. It's so amazing. It's so beautiful. And whenever I take people on tour, they thought. I just thought it was a, you know, a Ziploc bag with a couple Scrub brushes and a. A plunger to whatever they're telling me. Are you kidding me? So it's a big laundry mat, and I have, like, I think, 18 vintage vehicles in my. In my fleet. And. What? Yeah, it's. It's a huge. It's a huge operation. And the kids.
- [69:13]
Rachel Yucatel
Is it just there? Are you gonna franchise it to other cities?
- [69:17]
Pamela Jones
So. So it's. For right now, it's just here. We will be opening up two more locations then franchises, but it's on the kids now. I've already. I have already lived my dream, and. And I've raised all my kids. My baby's 27. They're all married. My oldest son is 40, going to be 44. And so they kind of, you know, I felt like I've lived in my dreams. I'm obviously stepping into this era of my life where I've just turned 60. Unfortunately, I'm getting old. But anyways, I just turned 60 and obviously dropped my memoir. I love inspiring people through my story, and I feel like the number one thing that. That is the secret sauce to my story is the. The success, internally and externally, of the woman that you see before you today. And I feel like that's what makes this so amazing, is that I have every reason to have failed, yet I succeeded. And I'm not saying that I am anything greater than anybody else, but I think that we all have that internal desire or guiding that helps us answer whatever it is that we want to do. And I loved telling women. And I can tell you, Rachel, like, I am so about shining a light on the things that unite us. And I'm so not for anything that, you know, I don't know if you've experienced, but I've seen it a lot where we're just so marketed to market. Buy this, market this. You know, get it. Go to this event and buy this and buy this and. And brands and, you know, the sizes that we are, our weight, you know, whatever we do with our face, our health, our work, marriages. I mean, we're just so marketed to what is the norm. And. And I feel like lots of times we're pinned against each other. Oh, look at your neighbor. She's 10 pounds lighter than you. She's on the newest. I don't know, the vibrating plate. Oh, I got to get me one of those. Or this one over here on her. Whatever marriage or her children are in this school or whatever is going on. And I feel like the light has always been shined on these things that we're trying to live up to or accomplish. And, and I feel like there's so many more things that we have in common. And I feel like if we would just shine the light on those things that we have in common. And I say, join arms. My kids get after me because evidently arms sound like guns or whatever. I said, no, you know, your arms. You join your arm with another woman and say, hey, I may have never lived your story, but I get it, you know, raising your kids on your own, I mean, and the fear that you have. And people say, oh, but I only have two kids. You have nine. And I say, look, when you are on your knees or if you're a praying girl or you're stressed out or worried for your child, you are a max. Do you sit there, say, well, I only have two kids. I'm only going to put two, two children's worths of fear or worry in this little situation. I said, you're at your max and your max. And my max is the same, regardless of what's causing it. And I think that we are, are. There's more about us that unite us than ever has separated us. And I am so in a time where I just think it doesn't matter. So I came from a cult or I came from whatever. I almost guarantee you if we turn the camera around or however you do this and you were sharing your story, there would be so many pieces of your story that I could relate to, even though I've never had anything to do with your story, obviously, or your mind, that we have in common as mothers, as women, as entrepreneurs, as, you know, living, you know, in the day and age that we live. And I am just so about, you know, putting those things aside and, and, and focusing on the things that we have in common. And we have so much in common, and I think we can do so much more joining together and, and allowing everybody to have the story. And the other day I was in a big book club doing a presentation, and one of the ladies there, I don't know what mood she was in or whatever, and she just says, well, well, I have nothing to say. There's nothing in that book that I have anything in common with. And leave it to me. I said, you're a woman, you're a mother. Have you ever been scared? Have you ever felt like you were misunderstood and. Which is kind of cute because that's the name of your show. Have you ever just felt like people didn't really see you for who you were? Did you ever feel like you didn't get the job that you deserved. And I started pointing out these things and she goes, yes, and yes. I said those things are in my story too. It's just maybe a different package but it's still the same thing. She says, I never thought thought of it that way. I said, we do have a lot in common.
- [73:53]
Rachel Yucatel
It is true that when you share your story and you get vulnerable, that's the way to connect with people. So you know, so many people love to judge other people right now especially. And you know, if people just shared their story and things that made them vulnerable is how I think more people would connect. Because you are right, a lot of these stories have universal themes in them. So the things that they've gone through might be completely different but they, the themes are all very similar and the feeling. So I totally appreciate what you're saying. Just a few more questions. You have 31 grandchildren right now, nine children. It sounds like they've all a lot of them have, have are coupled up now and maybe married, not married. What are their thoughts on religion and how are they your kids teaching their kids? Did any of your kids want to stay in a cult? Do they? Are they completely religion free now? It's this time, yes.
- [74:45]
Pamela Jones
So all my children are married and as we mentioned, I have 31 grandchildren and in my group of children I have there was a little while we had an atheist, but not anymore. But there's all kinds of different walks in faith and I just love as a mom showing up and, and learning about my children in a different light. And I think how did one little girl have nine different people? So different. But I love that because I learn a new thing about my children. And what sometimes when teasing I'll say, you know, I had nine beautiful babies and I blinked my eyes and I woke up with these dog on nine strangers who are you? And get out of my house. Just teasing them. Right. But the truth is is they all, I think through my example, I don't know for sure that I'm putting words in their mouth maybe, but through my example of finding my own way, I encouraged and, and I set the presidents for them to do the same. And I support them in their journey as they have been figuring it out. And they definitely all are faithbound. They have their fai have some Jewish children and then I have just non denominational people that don't even go to church. But they're all spiritual in their own way and they're raising their families the best they can as I believe everyone in America, most of us are doing so they have nothing to do with the colony or their father. And that's due to their father's choice, not the kids. And they have just decided that they're going to do what works best for them. And they have been big families, as you can imagine, with so many, the numbers of how many grandchildren I have. But the one thing is that they all are entrepreneurs, which I just, I'm just so blown away that if people would have known that this little illiterate, according to what people would say about me back in the day, was able to come to America and build this successful business and then write her memoir when I wasn't supposed to even be able to write and tell my, my story and stand on stage and be vulnerable. And my children are just so proud of me. My four sons have not read my book. They can't handle it, the pain in my story. And I keep telling some, but I'm okay. And we know how it turns out. Says no, mom. It makes me so mad. I said, okay until you're ready. But all of my daughters have, you know, you know, joined forces with me when it comes to all of that. And we started this little, this little group. So we kind of do some videos. We've done like, I think only 10 of them. And it's called Raised by Fire. And it just showcases all the stories that the girls have to tell about being raised by this, this interesting mother that I was, you know, And I don't know if you ever saw the movie, I can't remember the name of it, but it's Loretta Lind and it's her life and she's learned to play the guitar and she's got the washing machine going and she's kicking the washing machine and the kids crying and she's playing the guitar. It's kind of how I did my life, you know, I was kicking the washing machine, making the washing machine work, going out, getting my clients, raising the kids and trying to write my story and, and be able to put myself out there. And it's been interesting. The other day someone asked me about it and I said, well, it's like putting your legs up in the stirrups for the whole world to look in. I said, I don't have anything to hide anymore, but it's. I feel super vulnerable. But on the other hand, I just, just feel like if I don't share my story and if this little girl, even though I'm not little, nothing little about me, I'm a tall, six foot big girl. But if this Girl could actually step into her passions. And what I feel that I was here, my purpose and, and I love doing it, which is sharing my story and inspiring other women and being supportive and this movement that we can do these hard things and change the future for our granddaughters and our great granddaughters. If we don't do it, who's going to do it? We know the government's to going, not going to do it. And it's on us and each one of us matter and we don't have to do it alone. I just feel like that is my passion and my desire. Like whatever I can do to help that. And I tell people, I want you to stop right now, look 20 years in the future and look at your daughter. If you have a daughter or your granddaughter, if you get blessed to have granddaughters as well and say, you know, grandma, great grandma, you know, what was I going to do? Or I did the best or what are you going to tell her? And I said at end, the end of the day I would hope that we would do at least one thing. And I feel like your show that this is something that you do. You put these stories out there and, and even though maybe a lot of the stories you're not telling your daughter to watch per se, but it's your way, maybe I'm not putting words in your mouth, but changing the world a slight bit where people can be heard and, and the truth can come out and then you can help offset whatever this world is doing to, to make this world that much better or nothing else to show your daughter too can, can stand up and be heard or share these stories. And I'm not trying to say that's what you're doing, I just.
- [79:38]
Rachel Yucatel
No, but thank you for noticing because I do feel like, you know, I like to put it on a platform or use this platform to highlight stories of people who have gone through things or have been misunderstood or their narrative has been written for them for so long and they are taking the reins back and you are obviously an example of that. So, you know, it's so great to have someone like you on the show. Two more questions. So where's David now? You sounds like he has no contact with his kids. Is he back in the cult? Has he read your book?
- [80:06]
Pamela Jones
No, I don't think so. He probably burned it, but. No, he probably did some seance and then burned it. Now he's still in Mexico. He recently has married a 20 year old and he's 66 years old, but she was not from the cult. She's from one of the Chiapas, one of the impoverished communities. And I think some of the members, older members of the cult now, have gone into the poverty parts of Mexico. I'm not going to say they're buying women, but they are bringing money and finances to their parents, and in return, they get that. So he has. Has a younger wife, and she's just had a little baby for him. And I think he has, like, I think 60 children. And he's married to his brother's wife still. But I saw him back in maybe a year ago. Whenever I saw him, he's just the shell of a man. My children were devastated. And I said, look, he was a victim to that cult too. And that's what the church, that cult did to him. It's just a shell of a man. So that's where he's at. And no, I never see him at all.
- [81:04]
Rachel Yucatel
Okay, well, good. You are married now? Yes. This man is American?
- [81:11]
Pamela Jones
Yes. So I'm married to Rick Brown. I met him in Mankato. We met off of E. Harmony, believe it or not. No way. Yep. And when I pulled up on the side of his vehicle back then, this back in 2011, I don't know if you remember if he ever wore him, but they're wearing low. Wearing lowrider jeans. Do you remember everybody's butt cheeks? We're always hanging out. Well, of course I'm wearing those. And of course I'm wearing a thong because, you know, I'm single, but whatever. So after driving for an hour, I show up in the parking lot, and our vehicles are, you know, side by side, but opposites. And we're talking. He's a beautiful man and gorgeous smile. And then I finally think, oh, shoot, I'm gonna have to get out of this car. I'm gonna have to shake all my goodies back into my pants and get into his vehicle. And you know, he's gonna going to check your ass out, you know, even if I was in my 40s. So I look at it, but I said, well, do you want to ride with me or should I ride with you? And he says, oh, no, come ride with me. I thought, darn. So then I just bit the bull and I said, well, do you want to check out my ass before I get in your car? He says, no, just get in the car. So he's so embarrassed, he looked away. And I shimmied all my goodies back in my pants. And here we are, what, 14 years later, and it's been quite a quite all Right. And he's just a beautiful man. And it's been a great support. He's really good friends with my son. There's. He's a little bit. My sweetheart's a little bit younger than me, so my son and him are like 15 years apart. They're best friends. And I had to lay him straight one day. I said, you can't go talking about how hot I. Your wife is to her son. I. You can't do that. You can't guide talk to my boy about me. And that was hard. He had to learn a few things, but he's been amazing. Yeah. He's got two children and seven grandkids as well. We have a lot of extra time on our hands, but.
- [82:55]
Rachel Yucatel
And he. And he's. He was. Did he have any knowledge about what the cult life was or you had to explain all of this to him?
- [83:03]
Pamela Jones
Well, if I would have put on my profile 9 kids and escaped a cult, I would have never got a date. So I think this goes along with your misunderstood story is. So I showed up there, and on the profile, they asked me how many kids under the age of 18? Well, I only. Only had three at the time, so I answered that correctly. So when I met him, you know, I didn't think anything would happen. And he invited me over to his house the second date. And I told him, look, I. If you're looking for a quickie or whatever that is, I said, I'm not your girl. And then he told me, hey, my father raised me right, so that got my interest. So I went and spent. We spent eight hours. He introduced me to his son, we visited, whatever, and we weren't dating. So then I went home and a few weeks later, he invited me again and again. And I told him, look it, I know you consider this a third date, whatever. I said, if you're looking for whatever that is, a little bit of that kind of stuff. I mean, it sounds fun and all, but I'm not your girl. And again, he says, no, I'm a gentleman. And my father raised me right. So that really helped us. Me trust and get to know him. But, yeah, so that kind of how it happened. We ended up deciding to be together. We've been together. We got engaged and married in 20, 2013, and we've been together ever since. And it's just been a lot of fun. But when you asked me about the kids, I told him right from the beginning I had something to tell him. And he says, was it bad? I think later he says he thought I had cancer and I wasn't going to tell him. And I said, no, it's actually really good, but I don't know how you'll receive it. And he says, no worries. When you're ready, tell me. So I waited until he got to know me and he knew I had the three kids and I had a success business and I wasn't no woman looking for, you know, a handout or help me or whatever. So we dated for a little while. And then before it got anything intimate or too serious, I said, I have four sons. And he says, you have four sons, so you don't have three. You know, I had to do whatever. And I said, no, I do. I have the five daughters, too. And he says, nine. And I said, yes. And then he was quiet for a minute. Obviously I was in his honor arms. And he's like, you know, the more the merrier, he says, after meeting you, the more the merrier. And he, I, you know, I've heard him say it, but it's just been such a blessing. There's. He says there's people that do children and definitely I must have been one of them. But I'm so not saying prideful, but I'm just so excited and grateful for the opportunity to get to know myself. But on top of that, to be able to be the parent that I have been to my children and I think feel like I have so much free time. Yeah. If I go back and think about when they were teenagers, it's like the worst. I don't know if you like any of those rides or if you do bungee jumping or anything. That's so scary. That's how I think of it. Like, the most scariest thing I ever did was raise my kids when they were teenagers. It was so hard trying to keep them from, you know, having sex before marriage, which that didn't work. But at least there was no babies and, and just drugs and alcohol and the pain from the cold. And then they. They were targeted because we had all left the cult so that everybody was after my kids and all these different little things. It was so much work. But now I feel like I put in the time and obviously trying to heal myself. They ended up being outstanding members of their community, of their church. They're great parents. I hear it all the time. I. If I could share my little pictures with you and show you. I had my 60th birthday and, and I had a few friends there, and it was just a beautiful, emotional. And even people that are close to me, they Just thought, I've just never seen your. Your family's this family. So I know you have these kids, but I've never seen them. And my sister Vera was there and she says, sis, I know you have the nine kids. I've seen your kids. I've just never seen this big, beautiful family. And we're really close. We have each other's back. But then, you know, we have hard days. And some days someone's mad at someone, someone borrowed something and returned it broken or whatever happens.
- [86:57]
Rachel Yucatel
Well, that's all normal stuff. So the holidays are coming up. You've got. Between you and your husband. Tell me if I'm getting this wrong. You have 11 kids, then between the two of you, 38 grandkids. Then between the two of you. So what do you do for the holidays? Do you guys just say, okay, no presents?
- [87:14]
Pamela Jones
No. So this year we're doing a little bit different. I got myself an assistant. I got smarter this year, so I got myself assistant. So I always had an assistant who was my daughter, but now, now I have another one. And they do all my shopping. So what I do is all my children come to my house. They come in the morning. We have bagels, coffee, whatever. Whoever wants to come see grandma in the morning, they can. And then we start the presents. I buy gifts for all my grandchildren, but I don't buy gifts for my kids, so it's not too hard. Then they do a Christmas exchange amongst themselves. And then I make a traditional Mexican meal that it's. I feel like it's. I try to explain this, like, can you imagine having Thanksgiving without a turkey? Even if you don't like turkey, turkey, you still cook turkey. Because it's like. It's. That's kind of how it is. I prepare. I make homemade flour tortillas. A big. We get. My husband does the cooking. He does this big old thing of hamburger and potatoes. It's huge. And then we make all kinds of salsas and lettuces and cheese and sour cream and everything you think of. And the kids just put together their own burritos. I make big pans of Spanish rice and smash beans. Just really good food. It's the talk of the town. So I work hard and I remind them where we've come from at least once a year. And I cook for the whole family. We all get together and I'll help. And then different ones of the teenage kids play different games and pianos and we do a video show.
- [88:36]
Rachel Yucatel
And that is like an amazing holiday.
- [88:39]
Pamela Jones
When. When it's over, my House is cleaner than it was when it started and you can imagine what kind of mom I am. But they all, they all help out. Now my grandkids, I hear that one of my grandson sons is going to be getting engaged during this holiday. So I feel like it's just getting bigger and bigger and I, I know there's something to be said about being a good grandma and a loving grandma and sometimes I just wish I had more energy because I'm really close to my grandkids and I'm one of the younger grandmas but at the end of the day there I do the best I can but trying to remember it all. And I'm always on grandmother duty, I don't babysit. But you know, I just took someone out yesterday, it was his birthday and I'm trying to remember and I had, have this list and I'll take them off and then they end up at the bottom and it just never ends right. But at the end of the day I, I asked for it and I wanted it and I feel like, like I said earlier, when your heart is full, it's full. I guarantee your heart right now I don't know how many children, I think I heard you say daughter, so I know you have a daughter. Okay. So I imagine that your heart right now is, is at the max capacity. It can be with love and, and so is mine and it doesn't matter. So I try to tell that to everybody. It's not anything different. I'm the same. Just might be a few more pieces. Sure.
- [89:57]
Rachel Yucatel
Yeah. No, I totally get that. I mean I can totally imagine what you're saying and, and it seems like a lot with the numbers, but the love is there and it just as you get older, you know, I sometimes call my daughter, we have three dogs. Like one of the dogs names or you know, like mixed up to me. So last question I actually have for you. Do you talk to your parents? Are they still alive?
- [90:20]
Pamela Jones
So my father and my mother have both passed away and I believe by the time my father and you'll read that in my book and I don't want to spoil it, but by the time my father passed away, I was able to actually truly be free. And that's the biggest question I get when anybody reads my book is that how was I able to forgive my father? And, and it's a beautiful story but you'll have to read about it. But yeah, my father passed away in 20. My mother passed away in 2010.
- [90:50]
Rachel Yucatel
So they got to see you free were they were they happy? Were they proud? Were they angry?
- [90:55]
Pamela Jones
Well, my mom was victim of the cult, so she was in her own turmoil and she lived in Cancun. And my father, I think he was happy. He. He didn't come around. I really didn't see him a whole lot, as you can imagine, with the large family that he had. So I really never saw them much. And it's just a different dynamic. It's more of the cult and the religion and that. That's all they know. But my mom for sure was super proud of me. And I sometimes is. My biggest heartache is I just wish she was here now and she could see me, you know, using my voice that I hated so bad. I tell people that when I first left the cult, I had to learn to use my voice. And I was so taught not to speak to strangers or Gentiles or anybody. And I was soft spoken. So I went. The first thing I did is drive through a drive through and tried to order hemp hamburger. And it took me at least five times. I tell everybody it felt like 100, but five times to drive through a drive through to be able to finally order my burger and use my voice because I was so scared. And I'd get there, can I have a hamburger? And then they'd come back and say, would you like lettuce? Or whatever. She'd say, and I just get stern. And then I drive out of the line and think, not today, Ms. Jones, not today. And then I'd come back again. And when I was little, I'd heard the song to all. Beef patty special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun. I just wanted to say, can you give me this song? You know, but it wasn't that easy and it took me a lot. And then they wanted to know if I want to supersize it and what a Diet Coke or all these things for someone. And I was just. And I couldn't use my voice. I was so scared to talk and I didn't know how. And had someone told me then that that that exercise was going to be the beginning of me using my voice and be able to share my story with the whole world and stand on stages and with such confidence. I was just in Jane Fond home that she grew up in over in New York speaking. And I couldn't believe this little girl that couldn't order a burger is here telling the whole world all the ins and outs about my story and how I was able to get where I'm at.
- [92:59]
Rachel Yucatel
It's Amazing. It's an incredible story. Again, for people that want to read the whole memoir. It's called the Dirt Beneath the Door. We've only been talking for an hour and a half. You see how much there is to the story and we only got to certain points of it. So there's so much in the book. If people want to know about more about you or where to buy the book or where to hear you speak, tell our listeners where they can find you.
- [93:22]
Pamela Jones
You can find me on WW PamelaSpeaks live. That's my website and you can see all of my stuff is there. You can even take a little sneak peek at my daughters and some of the fun stuff we're doing there. Also, you can go on Amazon, find the book, it's the Dirt Beneath Our Door, Simon and Schusters. You can find it there. You can find me on Instagram, Facebook and maybe at your neighborhood grocery store. I don't know, wherever.
- [93:50]
Rachel Yucatel
It's been an honor to have met you. You are an incredible woman. I can't wait to see, like, there's so much ahead in your life. I mean, you're so young still. So I'm so incredibly happy for you that you found this man that you have this love story with. And good luck getting through the holidays with all your kids and your grandkids. But I expect nothing less than, you know, just the best time and enjoying everything that life is bringing to you and enjoying, you know, this new world for you.
- [94:17]
Pamela Jones
So thank you so much again. Great time.
- [94:21]
Rachel Yucatel
Yeah, it was amazing to have you on and for our listeners to hear your story.
- [94:25]
Pamela Jones
Thank you. Foreign.
- [94:34]
Rachel Yucatel
Thank you so much for listening to Ms. Understood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our patreon@patreon.com misunderstood with Rachel Ukitel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email us at Info misunderstood with Rachel podcastmail.com that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
- [95:05]
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