The Truth About Joey Merlino: Mob Boss, Prison, Loyalty & Life After The Headlines

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Truth About Joey Merlino – Mob Boss, Prison, Loyalty & Life After The Headlines

Podcast: Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Host: Rachel Uchitel
Guest: Joey Merlino ("Skinny Joey")
Release Date: June 9, 2026

---

Overview

This compelling episode features Joey Merlino, a figure long known in the headlines as the alleged boss of the Philadelphia crime family, now focusing on his life after the headlines. Rachel Uchitel explores the man behind the newspaper stories and Netflix documentaries—delving into his upbringing, views on loyalty, experiences with prison, and his current role as a restaurateur and podcast host.

The conversation is candid, at times humorous, and deeply insightful, focusing as much on the enduring impact of family and community ties as on Merlino's notorious past and the lasting effects of being misunderstood by the public.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of "Skinny Joey" & Early Life (03:11–05:47)

• Nickname Origin:
  • “The cops gave me that name. ... I got a cousin with the same name. ... He's fat. ... When they were surveilling us ... the fat one, the skinny one.” (Joey, 03:13)
• Childhood:
  • Grew up in a tight-knit Italian American neighborhood in South Philly; houses open, neighbors close.
  • Left school in ninth grade to work as a jockey (06:30), a job that came with genuine passion and long hours.

2. Joey’s First Hustles: Gambling & Jockey Life (06:35–10:18)

• Jockey Experience:
  • Started as a hot walker, groom, then exercise boy, riding up to 15 horses each morning.
  • “The most dangerous sport, that, and auto racing.” (Joey, 08:43)
  • Ended racing career due to struggles maintaining jockey weight as he matured.
• Gambling Beginnings:
  • “I was gambling before that. ... I was 12.” (Joey, 10:48)
  • First gambling win at age 12—“That was the worst thing that happened to me.” (11:06)

3. Crime, Prison, and Notoriety (13:38–19:48)

• First Arrests & Early Encounters:
  • First time locked up at 13 for shoplifting paint; later spent 3 days in jail in his early 20s.
• Views on Jail:
  • Never particularly afraid: “Does jail scare you? No, never.” (16:16)
• Mob Allegations & Media:
  • Dismissive of “mob boss” rumors—“It sells. ... The media, they say whatever they want.” (Joey, 16:57)
  • “Friend of mine ... asked me a question. He says, ‘How come rappers use Italian names, you know? ... what sounds better? Irv Gotti or Irv Feldman?’” (Joey, 17:01)
  • Acknowledges American obsession with the mob, driven by movies and media stereotypes.

4. Netflix's 'Mob Wars' & Betrayal (21:37–27:36)

• Reflections on 'Mob Wars':
  • Calls much of the documentary “lies,” especially regarding timeline and associates.
• Key Moment: Ralph Natali Betrayal
  • “It's hard to sit there, especially when they're lying. ... You want to stand up and say something. ... But you can’t. You just got to sit there.” (Joey, 25:18–25:29)
  • On informants: Merlino describes “rats” and government leniency—“When you're an informant, when you work for the government, ... you can do whatever you want.” (28:17)

5. Loyalty, Retaliation, and Advice (29:52–35:02)

• Handling Betrayal:
  • “You just gotta bite your tongue and move on. It ain’t worth it.” (Joey, 29:52)
  • “Look, you see all these people on the podcast? They all talk about me. They want me to go back at them. I won't.” (Joey, 30:17)
• On Jail and Family:
  • The hardest part: “They didn’t hurt me. They hurt my family. They hurt my mother, my wife, my kids.” (Joey, 30:53)
  • Missed his daughters’ childhoods.

6. Code of Conduct & Being Misunderstood (32:10–35:18; 54:04–55:27)

• Life Rules:
  • “Gotta stay away from people. ... My pride? Trust everybody. ... That’s dead. No, I don't want no new friends.” (Joey, 32:10–32:24)
  • Loyalty and an aversion to betrayal—“That’s my downfall. I’m too loyal. ... My mother ... when you first growing up, tell you, don't be a tattletale, right?” (Joey, 33:29)
• Being Misunderstood:
  • “They believe what’s in the paper, on the shows, the TV, the clips they show.” (Joey, 55:17)
  • “Misconception? ... We help everybody. ... They got us down as bad guys ... we help everybody.” (Joey, 56:00)

7. Prison Details & Social Structure Inside (35:40–40:10)

• Solitary Confinement:
  • “Go in your bathroom ... take the tub out ... hang a mirror up ... that's it.” (Joey, 36:08)
• Life in General Population:
  • “Jail’s like an X-ray machine.” (39:15)
  • Social groups are quickly established—“If he’s gay, he’ll find the gay people ... if he’s decent, he'll find the good guys.” (Joey, 39:15)

8. Views on Organized Crime & Politics (40:10–42:36)

• Shifting the Narrative:
  • Considers the government/politicians as “the real organized crime.”
    • “Organized crimes, that big pharma? ... Pelosi ... Biden ... they're the gangsters.” (Joey, 40:10–41:56)
• On Trump:
  • “I love Trump. ... He ain't playing no games. ... China knows. Iran knows.” (Joey, 42:00–42:24)

9. Addiction, Life After Prison, and Second Chances (45:30–49:47)

• Helping Former Inmates:
  • Hires ex-convicts at his businesses—“I'll hire anybody. I'll give anybody a second chance. ... as long as they're not a pedophile or a rat.” (Joey, 48:19)
• Hardships After Jail:
  • Discusses how difficult reintegration can be—housing, jobs, and stigma.

10. Reflections & Future Plans (51:00–53:47)

• New Life in Boca Raton:
  • Golf, time with family, and running a growing cheesesteak business.
  • "Philly with the podcast with the cheesesteak place. Now we're open to other places." (Joey, 51:29)
• Ambitions:
  • Plans to franchise and possibly retire after selling—“Put them all over the country ... sell it like Jersey Mike's did for 8 million.” (Joey, 53:39)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Reputation:

“He’s cocky. Don’t make me a bad guy, does it?”
— Joey Merlino, (01:32)

On Media & Mob Stereotypes:

"It sells papers. That's all it is."
— Joey Merlino, (04:09)

“What sounds better? Irv Gotti or Irv Feldman?”
— Joey Merlino, (17:01)

On Prison & Trials:

“The case they tried to give me, death penalty twice in prison. I won.”
— Joey Merlino, (23:10)

"It's hard to sit there [in court], especially when they're lying. You want to stand up and say something ... but you can't … just sit there."
— Joey Merlino, (25:18)

On Loyalty & Betrayal:

"That's my downfall. I'm too loyal."
— Joey Merlino, (33:29)

On Being Misunderstood:

“They believe what’s in the paper ... the clips they show.”
— Joey Merlino, (55:17)

“Misconception? ... We help everybody ... we’re not bad guys.”
— Joey Merlino, (56:00)

On Informants:

“When you're an informant ... you got a license. You can do whatever you want.”
— Joey Merlino, (28:17)

On Not Reacting to Haters:

“I don’t care what they say about me. It’s all bullshit. ... When somebody’s talking about you, you’re on their mind, right? Remember that?”
— Joey Merlino, (30:17, 35:04)

On Second Chances:

"I'll hire anybody. I'll give anybody a second chance ... as long as they're not a pedophile or a rat."
— Joey Merlino, (48:19)

---

Key Timestamps

• Nickname & Childhood: 03:11–05:47
• Jockeying & Gambling: 06:30–10:18
• Mob Myths & Media: 16:16–18:48
• Ralph Natali Courtroom Story: 24:46–25:39
• On Loyalty and Retaliation: 29:52–35:02
• Solitary Confinement Description: 36:00–36:51
• On Political “Gangsters”: 40:10–41:56
• Life After Prison, Hiring Ex-Cons: 45:30–49:47
• Merlino’s Code & Misconceptions: 54:04–56:00
• Future Plans, Franchising: 53:29–53:47

---

Tone & Language

The episode captures both Merlino’s Philly street-wise candor and Rachel Uchitel’s introspective curiosity. The conversation is peppered with humor, candor on harsh realities, and frequent asides about family, food, and the absurdities of modern media obsession. Merlino never shies from controversy, but is careful to sidestep direct criminal self-incrimination, keeping conversation focused on broader lessons about loyalty, trust, and staying grounded.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a humanizing, sometimes raw portrait of Joey Merlino—branded by the media as a mob boss but eager to emphasize his values of loyalty, trust, and second chances. Listeners are left with a nuanced portrait—one that challenges headlines and pushes past the “misunderstood” label.

---

Where to Find Joey:

• Podcast: Available on Patreon (details on his socials)
• Philly Cheesesteak Shop: 3020 S. Broad St, Philadelphia

---

Transcript

[A]

If you're enjoying Misunderstood, don't forget that every Saturday I release an exclusive Patreon episode called the Palm Beach Life. While Misunderstood is all about the people and stories that fascinate me, the Palm beach life is where I share a lot more of what's happening in my own world. The stories I'm following, behind the scenes moments, Palm beach gossip, and the things I don't always talk about on the main show. And starting June 11, Patreon is going to become even more exclusive. Dan and I are taking our first real vacation in years aboard our new yacht, appropriately named Ms. Understood. And for Patreon members only, I'll be sharing daily updates from our two and a half week adventure through the islands, along with special guests and plenty of unexpected moments along the way. Just so you know, we will also be dark on the main feed the following week with no Tuesday episode. But Patreon members will get new content every single day while we're away. So if you've been thinking about joining, now is the perfect time. Just head over to Patreon and search Misunderstood with Rachel Yukatel. I'll see you there. Federal prosecutors called him the boss of the Philadelphia crime family. People say he still is.

[B]

Joey Merlino, according to investigators, is the head of a broken family.

[A]

He spent more than two decades behind bars.

[B]

A federal judge has ordered that the jailed mob boss is charged with murder, drug dealing and racketeering.

[A]

Beaten some of the biggest federal cases brought against him.

[B]

Try to give me death penalty. Twice in prison, I won and most

[A]

recently became the subject of a Netflix documentary, mob War that put his life back into the spotlight.

[B]

He's cocky. Don't make me a bad guy, does it?

[A]

Today, he runs a successful cheesesteak empire, hosts a podcast, and remains one of the most recognizable figures to ever come out of Philadelphia. But when I sat down with Joey Merlino, I wasn't interested in the headlines. I wanted to understand the man behind the reputation. And what surprised me most wasn't the prison stories. What are things you want to stay away from and things that you really value?

[B]

You got to stay away from people. But my pride? Trust everybody. You know what I mean?

[A]

As someone who's dealt with public betrayal myself, I wanted to know how he handles people attacking him, talking about him, and trying to tear him down.

[B]

When somebody's talking about you, you're on their mind, right? Remember that.

[A]

So I sat with Joey and asked the questions everyone wanted answered. A cornerstone of the government's case was the testimony of former boss Ralph Natali. What was it like to sit across from him and hear him say those things? Joey, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood.

[B]

Thank you for having me. I've seen you have some good guests on your show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You the show. I watch it.

[A]

Oh, thank you. Well, you to add to that roster of characters. For sure. Why do they call you skinny Joey?

[B]

The cops gave me that name.

[A]

Did they?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So nothing to do with your size?

[B]

No, no. I'm telling you why I got it how I got it. I got a cousin with the same name.

[A]

Oh, yeah?

[B]

As me, Joey Merlino. He's fat. He was like 2, 250 pounds.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I was always little, you know, skinny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they, I guess when they were surveilling us, you know which one he said? The fat one, the skinny one.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Nobody never called me that. The press gave me the name.

[A]

Got it. So no one calls it called you that to your face?

[B]

No.

[A]

Well, until recently. Well, now you're.

[B]

Well, now it's a cheesesteak place. But nobody ever called me that. Right.

[A]

Amazing. So listen, in doing this research, we talked about this before, and doing this research on you before I had you on my show, there's two imparts to you. Some people say you're the nicest guy, you're into philanthropy, you give out turkeys to people, you feed the homeless, you help everyone. And then the feds call you the head or the boss of the Philadelphia crime family. So how would you describe yourself?

[B]

Which sounds better?

[A]

Well, it depends who you ask.

[B]

Or the head. No, it sells papers. That's all it is.

[A]

Okay, so how would you describe yourself?

[B]

Oh, nice. Nice person. Help everybody. 40 on the dog. We've been giving that. They say I've been giving the turkeys out, you know, to try to give views I've been giving out since the 80s. Yeah, there was no Instagram. There wasn't even a cell phone. Right. I've been doing it for years.

[A]

Right. So explain to me what you do now. I mean, I love the fact that you have this Philly cheesesteak place. And is it the number one place? I heard there's some rivalry with a place called Pat's. Like what? What is that?

[B]

Nah, he started with us. He started with sn.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then we buried him.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now he's no rivalry. We took all his business.

[A]

You did?

[B]

Yeah. He's no rivalry.

[A]

Okay, but is it the best in the country?

[B]

Steak in the country.

[A]

Okay. What goes into the cheesesteak? I've never had one.

[B]

Give you the recipe. You got to come to Philly.

[A]

Well, what is it, though? What's in it? It's steak and cheese. In a. In a.

[B]

There's a lot. Lot that goes to it.

[A]

Okay, so you have a secret sauce.

[B]

Yeah, we got a secret seasoning. We don't use oil. We use beef tallow. We got the best.

[A]

My husband uses that, too.

[B]

We're gonna put them all over.

[A]

Okay, well, that's what I was gonna ask you. So it's your only one place, right?

[B]

Yeah, we got one now, the original one in South Philly, and then we're opening them Wildwood, Jersey Shore, in a boardwalk in a couple weeks, probably.

[A]

Oh, amazing.

[B]

And then we got another one going up in Chichester, and then we're gonna start franchising.

[A]

Got it. So you've had a very interesting life, and obviously a lot of people have a lot of things to say about you, but what I found interesting is doing the research about you. So you grew up in a family in this life in Philly. Tell me about your childhood a little bit.

[B]

Grew up in a row house. Like, everybody row home, three bedrooms.

[A]

Brothers and sisters.

[B]

My two sisters in one bedroom, me in the middle, my mother and father in the other bedroom.

[A]

And what did your parents, like, teach you? Did you want to be something when you grew up? Like, what was your childhood like?

[B]

It was good. Like, basic Italian neighborhood. Everybody looked out for each other, left our doors open. I could go in your house, walk across the street, walk in like our friends. It was close, tight knit.

[A]

Right. Everyone knew each other.

[B]

Everyone knew each other and there and

[A]

knew each other's parents.

[B]

Everybody.

[A]

But, like, you know, did you want to be a baseball player? Did you want to be a stockbroker?

[B]

Everything okay, Apple? You know, we played sports all day. That's all we did.

[A]

Right. And did your parents say, oh, you got to go to college? Like, what were the rules instilled in you as a kid?

[B]

I hated school. I was bad. I got thrown out at. Thrown out of school. I quit school in ninth grade.

[A]

You did?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And your parents let you quit?

[B]

Well, I went to work down the track to become a jockey.

[A]

Nice. Okay, tell me about that. Do you like horses?

[B]

Yeah, I love them. Yeah.

[A]

To this day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I love the fact that you are a jockey. Like, can you explain to people what that's like? I love watching the Kentucky Derby. I get really into it. I love animals. So it's really hard for me to watch because I get really upset for these horses. Did you see the horse this year? The big beautiful one that fell backwards and couldn't compete at the last minute.

[B]

It was. He was going to negate in the derby, the great. The grey horse.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Now, if he. If he goes over, like he went up. If he. I had a horse flip. If he flips him, the guy gets crushed.

[A]

Killed.

[B]

Yeah. He's 1500 pounds, right? The guy's. The jockey's 100 pounds when squash will kill him.

[A]

Right. Okay, so tell me about being a jockey. What did you start as? Were you, like, cleaning stalls or something?

[B]

I started at Atlantic City racetrack. I was 16. You gotta get working. I started Laden City Racetrack. I was a hot walker. What does that mean, walk horses?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, when the horse goes in the morning to work out, when they come back, they bath. They bathe them and they gotta cool down. You gotta walk them for a half hour, Right. Just keep on walking in circles for it. And that was it. I did that like six months. Then I became a groom, where you take care of the horses, clean the stalls, you know, brush them all that. Groom them. And then I became an exercise boy. You got the horses in the morning.

[A]

Where'd you learn to ride?

[B]

It's funny, there's no horses in Philly. I never see a horse.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

Salby Testa, he had a horse in Jersey, it was called Cabana Downs. And he took me, you know, riding, and we used to rent horses. It was like $3 an hour, right? They were like donkeys. But we went and he had a nice horse, and my friend Philip Narducci had a horse, and I. We used to go downright, And I was. I was good. I used to do, like, the barrels, you know, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I started like that, and I just loved it.

[A]

Do you feel like you were just fearless on a horse? You were able to kind of just do whatever you needed to do?

[B]

I mean, you know, I got hurt.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's the most dangerous sport, that, in auto racing.

[A]

Yeah, well, I can imagine so. But how did you become an actual jockey? Don't you have to, like, go to school for that or something? How do you learn?

[B]

I become an exercise boy. I used to get on, like, 15 horses every morning. Like, I used to go to the track five in the morning and then never a day off. Never. I remember when I first started working down there, the guy said, I'll see you tomorrow. It was Christmas. I said, christmas? No. I said, I'm going. We got a family dinner. He said, you're gonna eat, right? I said, yeah. He said, well, the horses Got to eat. Come here and feed them, like every day, seven days a week. Don't stop. And then I exercise. Boy, then I rode my first race. I was an apprentice.

[A]

How'd you do?

[B]

I didn't win. Maybe. I don't know.

[A]

So have you ever won? I mean, I saw that you. That you. You did 41 races or something.

[B]

I won more than that, I think.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. I don't know where they got that at.

[A]

Okay, so is there a trick to winning? Like, you know, when you're looking at these things to gamble on, are you looking at the jockey or are you looking at the horse?

[B]

I miss the horse. The trainers, the jockey got something to do with it too. But it's hard. I mean, I was little then. When I start riding, I turned 17, 18. I started to grow. And it's hard to keep your weight down. You gotta weigh 105 pounds, right?

[A]

When I lived in Manhattan, I lived on. It was just myself in another apartment. And the guy next door to me was a jockey. And he would walk around in what looked like garbage bags.

[B]

Yeah, garbage bags.

[A]

And that's how I would see him every day. And then he'd. I'd asked what he was doing. He said he came back from the sauna or he came back from the gym. And I never understood any of it, but I guess it's to keep your weight down.

[B]

And of course, yeah, they got the skill. I mean, you gotta get weight and it's hard. I mean, it sounds disgusting. We used to eat and throw up.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

In the jockey room, they got like a bowl just for that.

[A]

Oh, no way. So the reason why I ask all this, and I wanna hear about it, is. Cause your level of commitment and appreciation for the horses and a love for the sport. Seems like that was a big deal when you were younger.

[B]

Yeah, I love him. I still love him.

[A]

And is that how you got into gambling? Because you saw the gambling that went with the horse races.

[B]

I was gambling before that.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Well, I was gambling. I was 12.

[A]

Tell me about that.

[B]

I was 16. My friend across the street, Donnie, he was like my best friend. His family, our families were close. We used to walk in each other's houses. I must have been about 12, 11. He gave me a pool, football, pool. Sunday, he picked four teams.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

You know, with the spread, and if they win, I put a dollar on. I got $10 back. I hit the first week. That was the worst thing that happened to me.

[A]

Isn't it amazing, though? Like, what you would be in trouble for Back then, which now is legal. Yeah. How do you feel about that?

[B]

That's the. They're all hypocrites. It's the biggest epidemic going to be in this country is the kids with the gambling on the. On the. On the phone. You know, it didn't even start yet.

[A]

You don't think it started yet? You think it's gonna get worse?

[B]

Kids are gonna what, they're gonna lose? A friend of mine, his friend's son robbed the father's credit card, right? Opened an account, you know. They asked her, are you 18? He said, yeah, they don't know. Gave the numbers, lost 50,000 on the father's credit card.

[A]

Wow. It's interesting you say that, because a lot of people don't consider gambling as, like, as big of a deal as an addiction, because they say it can't kill you, but it can force you to do all these crazy things. Steal.

[B]

Listen, do anything. Guy go out and sell drugs to get money, to go gamble. He's not a drug dealer. He just. He needs money. He'll do anything. Like, he could steal a car. I stole the Armor car for. To go gamble.

[A]

Okay, I heard about that. Can we talk about that for a second?

[B]

No, I'm just saying. But I. You know, I went and gamble with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

So that's why you. You stole from an armored car?

[B]

Yeah, we were broke.

[A]

And you wanted to gamble with the money. What was your game?

[B]

Blackjack. Yeah, I like dice, too, but blackjack mostly.

[A]

Okay. And you would play it, like, with your friends, or you go to Vegas, or you did it all?

[B]

No, Vegas, but we used to play in the neighborhood. We had hangout like we were kids. We had hangouts. Every. Every. Every couple of blocks there was a hangout. So games. Poker games, you know, it's not like

[A]

you're playing gin rummy, though, like you're playing real shit.

[B]

Yeah, Jen.

[A]

Yeah, Okay. I like that, too. So talk to me about when you were younger. Did you get in trouble a lot? Like, always? Always. Even when you were riding with the horses?

[B]

No. Then I moved like, I lived in. Where we go. Started Atlantic City, went Philly Park. I lived home there. Then I moved to Delaware. Delaware Park. I moved to Pemico, where the Preakness was. Well, last week it was at Laurel, but that's where it's at. Pemico. I moved there. So, no, I didn't get.

[A]

I mean, so while you were working, you didn't get in trouble while you had a purpose, you didn't get in trouble.

[B]

Yeah, I was there all the time.

[A]

Yeah, so it was when you were home hanging out with the kids.

[B]

Neighborhood. We were bad, so.

[A]

But what does bad mean? You're like, breaking into cars.

[B]

Yeah, but bullshit. Throw eggs at the cops.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, mischief, might throw eggs.

[A]

Being mischievous.

[B]

Yeah, just kid shit. Nothing. You know, we didn't hurt nobody.

[A]

Right. Did you ever go to college?

[B]

College?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No. Jail. Yeah.

[A]

So how old were you the first time you went to jail?

[B]

First time I got locked up.

[A]

Mm,

[B]

13.

[A]

For what?

[B]

Might have been shoplifting. We were shoplifting. Spray paint, I think. Then I got. We got. Well, the cops that we used to throw eggs at, the cops. And they used to grind, they used to chase it. They caught us, they would drive us like three miles away, like at 10 o' clock at night, let us walk home. They didn't lock us up. They used to laugh at it.

[A]

You know, to teach you a lesson.

[B]

Yeah, teach us a lesson, right? Yeah. I think I got locked up for stealing spray paint at a Woolworths.

[A]

Okay. For how many days were you.

[B]

No, my mother had to come and get me.

[A]

Got it. So it wasn't. And you got beat up?

[B]

Well, when she came, yeah.

[A]

Oh. By her.

[B]

Cops were like, hey, get the fuck out. Yeah, take her.

[A]

The cops were nice. Your mom was pissed. Okay, so what was the first time that you really spent a couple days or a bit of a longer stint where you're like, oh, shit, this sucks.

[B]

I got locked up in Atlantic City. We were going to a fight.

[A]

How old?

[B]

21.

[A]

Okay, so out of your teens?

[B]

Yeah, 20. 21. We were walking in a fight with the. It was me, Salvi, Nick the Blade, Philly and Eddie. An informant. My uncle. An informant. I'm a kid. We're walking in and they surround us. I'm thinking they're locking them up. They lock me up for a fight that we had in a bar. And I was here like three days.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

And I got out on bail.

[A]

Okay, so the first time you're in there for three days, what was your experience in there?

[B]

Just laid on the floor on a mat. They gave you papers to roll, cigarettes and I didn't have a roll. I never smell. I don't smoke pot. I never smoke pot. I didn't have a roll. That was it.

[A]

Is it like, you see, it's like a bunch of people in one room and you're waiting, or are you by yourself now at this.

[B]

No, there's a bunch of people on

[A]

the floor and they're all waiting.

[B]

I mean, it's not like, like they show jail now with the cell, but when you get locked up first in county jails, it's forget about people laying all over the floor. Nasty, right? Bottoms, you got bombs.

[A]

You know, right now, I guess, you know, did you ever have a fear of going to jail? Cause I've heard you talk about this before, that people, the big fear is going to jail. Like, you don't want to go to jail for life or whatever. At any point were you scared, like, oh, shit, this is going to be a long time. I'm going to lose things. Like, does jail scare you? No, never. Even when you were a kid?

[B]

I mean, I never was in jail when I was like, teen, I got locked up. My mother come and got me out. But no.

[A]

So that doesn't drive your. Your fear to be good. Let's just talk about the mob for a second.

[B]

There you go with the mob stuff.

[A]

I just got to ask you, you know, because this is what they say about you, Right. So I got to ask you, have you ever been in the mob?

[B]

No.

[A]

Do you think it's interesting that you've been associated with all these conversations, this Netflix documentary that highlights you all the newspaper articles. Do you think it' interesting that you're seen as that? And that's your reputation.

[B]

It sells. You know what I mean? Look, you know, the media. Look at the fake. Fake media.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What they did to you trump me. I mean, they say whatever they want. It sounds better, right? A friend of mine, I was on a Prince. I was away with him, nice kid from New York, and he asked me a question. He says, how come rappers use Italian names, You know? So I said, what sounds better? Irv Gotti or Irv Feldman? True, right or wrong? Irv Gotti sounds better than Irv Feldman.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's true. But you know, what's everybody's obsession with this mob life or mafia? I mean, there are so many guys that forget you. I know from growing up anywhere but New York City that want to have that mentality to be the tough guy, to be this guy that is feared instead of. I mean, you can see that. That there are people that want to be part of that mob world. Whether or not it exists is not my point. But that seems to be something that people aspire to, to be seen as a tough guy.

[B]

Well, they're all tough till they get locked up.

[A]

Right, right. And do you think it's part of the movies? Like I've never seen?

[B]

I'm moving behind. Yeah. I mean, I never seen the Sopranos, but they stereotype Italians.

[A]

Right. But have you seen the Godfather?

[B]

Yeah, when I was a kid, years ago. I was young.

[A]

Have you seen, like, Bronx Tale?

[B]

Yeah, I've seen Bronx, too.

[A]

So here's the funny thing. I watched Mob. What is it called? Mob wars on Netflix last night just to see if. Have you seen it?

[B]

Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, it was hips. Lies. They don't tell the whole story.

[A]

Half are lies. Okay, but it's about you. Yeah, essentially. It was pretty good, by the way. I thought it was good as somebody just watching it. But, you know, I'm also somebody that grew up loving Bronxdale, right? And I had that kid Lilo Bronchetto on the show. You know him? You know who I'm talking about? Well, did you ever see Bronx Tale?

[B]

Yeah, I know. You mean.

[A]

Yeah, great movie.

[B]

Yeah, it was a great movie. Yeah.

[A]

And the kid, who's the little kid reminds me of the story that they tell about you. This little kid who all of a sudden is going to be the guy, and that's how they represent you. Whether or not it's true, I'm not even going to ask you, but I'm just saying. So I picture this. Now, this guy in real life, Lilo Brancato is his name. That's not his name. As the actor goes to prison in real life because he robbed somebody and killed and shot a cop. But he got so wrapped up in wanting to be the tough guy and getting into drugs and all this stuff that he became the guy in the movie. But he didn't get to be the big guy. He just got sent away. And now he has this stigma over him that he's a bad guy. But in watching those movies, I mean, do you watch them and say, this is funny, this is crazy, because that's what they put on you as what your life is.

[B]

No, some of them are funny. Like Casino was funny with Joe Pesci when he hit the guy in the head, you know, the Casino. Like, that's not funny.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like I told you, I never watched Sopranos. I don't watch them.

[A]

So you don't think there's a godfather?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In Catholic school there is. I mean, you know, Catholic church. Like, I have a godfather. You know, there's godfathers there. It sounds good.

[A]

It sounds good. But when you were a child and growing up, you had to fear something or someone. Was it your father?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, my father.

[A]

Tell me about your father.

[B]

No, I mean, my mother hit me every day.

[A]

Was she scarier than your father?

[B]

Yeah, she hit me. Whatever she could pick up, fucking lamp, broom, anything.

[A]

Because she had an anger problem or was that a you problem?

[B]

Yeah, we just tortured her, you know, banned in school, got thrown out of school. My father hit me, like, every couple months.

[A]

Okay, but were you scared of him hitting you, or you were scared of him not liking you?

[B]

No, like, scared to get hit. Yeah, scared of him. Like he told me, you ever get a tattoo? Wherever it is, I'm cutting it out. Like all my friends, you know, we were kids. Yeah. Indian ink, tattoos.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I never got a tattoo.

[A]

To this day.

[B]

To this day, I don't have a tattoo. You ever get your ear pierced? I cut your ear off. You cut the ear? A little and he would have did it. I never got my ear pierced. And all my.

[A]

And that's not a religious thing. It's just.

[B]

No, like, all the kids in my neighborhood had tattoos. Ear pierced.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You ever do drugs? I'll kill you. Nobody ever did drugs.

[A]

So you never got into that?

[B]

No, we drank, so.

[A]

Okay, I just want to talk about mob wars for a second because it was very interesting. It kind of laid out for the person you said you saw it. You laid out for the average person what the story was. And it talks about the four mob bosses. You being the last known mob boss. I was curious. Alleged. Excuse me. Correct. I was curious because there's a point, and it says, like, in the 90s, all four of you guys that they mentioned were in prison at the same time. Maybe some of them had died at the time. I don't even know. You need me to go through them? No.

[B]

You know who was in prison?

[A]

Scarfo, Stanfa, Natalie Natali, and you. At one point in the 90s, you guys had all been locked up at the same time. Do you remember that?

[B]

No. Let me see. Well, my father. Nikki. Nikki went away in the 80s. Mm. Ralph was already in jail.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That's where I met him in 90. I met him in 1990. I met him in jail.

[A]

Ralph Natali.

[B]

Yeah. Stanford didn't get locked up till, I think, 99.

[A]

And you weren't in jail then?

[B]

No, I was out. I got. No, he got locked up. I got locked up. 99. I think they got locked up in, like, 97. 98. 96. 97. I got out. 94. I got locked up. 99. Lemonade. Fresh squeezed lemonade.

[A]

Lemonade. Oh, nuts.

[B]

Is your business struggling to be seen not reaching the right customers? Yeah. Odysee's here to help your one stop Shop for digital marketing.

[A]

Wait, really?

[B]

With targeted digital media plus SEO, SEM, social, OTT and more, we help your business reach the right audience and drive results.

[A]

Whoa, hey.

[B]

One at a time. Stop missing out on valuable customers. Visit digitallocalads.com to learn more about about our local advertising solutions. That's DigitalLocalAds.com.

[A]

okay, people, line starts here. I loved that they had so much footage on you for this show. I mean, they were really watching it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Every day I twirl up taxpayers money went.

[A]

Do you think they're still watching you?

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[A]

Why do you think they're so interested in you?

[B]

They hate me.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because I won.

[A]

How? Because you stayed out of prison. Is that winning to you?

[B]

The case they tried to give me death penalty twice in prison. I won.

[A]

Right, right, right. So how many times were you. You were tied to what were the worst crimes? Murders, I'm assuming. Right. And you were acquitted on all charges. You've never been sent away for murder. That was never the thing. But you've been arrested for it or you've been suggested?

[B]

No, I was indicted for it.

[A]

You're indicted for it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now is that the case where Natalie got up on the stand and called you out and lied?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you in the room during that?

[B]

Yeah, he was sitting from here to where Ben is.

[A]

Okay, so can you kind of set this scene? Because I watched this and I was so into this scene, so. In the movies, it says that at the time.

[B]

Well, in the movie, you gotta understand, you watch a movie, a guy gets 20 years, they do a commercial, after the commercial, he's home.

[A]

True. Okay. But what I found interesting was Ralph Natali was a mob boss, but later he was not. He was. Okay, but they said he was the one and only mob boss who ever eventually became an informant. And the FBI agreed to let him be an informant, and it was during this case. So had you met him at this time or you met him when you went to jail?

[B]

I never seen him until I went to jail in 1990.

[A]

Okay, but this case, when he got on the stand, you had already met him or you hadn't met him?

[B]

Yeah, I met him before that.

[A]

Got it. Okay. I just want to know for dates. So you had. You knew him. So he's in jail already on drug charges, I guess. Right. He went away for drugs his whole

[B]

life, him and his whole family.

[A]

The drugs took him down. That was his issue. So he gets there, he's on in the stand, in the box.

[B]

The witness stand.

[A]

The witness stand, and he Basically points the finger at you. Yeah, me and my friends and I was really curious what it was like in the room that day. You're on trial for what? Like, if you had been convicted, would this have been a life sentence?

[B]

Life, life with no parole. Never get out.

[A]

So to watch a man who's already in prison, who, by the way, at the end of the day, nobody believed him because you got off. And that was indicative of the fact that nobody believed him.

[B]

Well, we caught him lying, like. Like red handed lying. And that's. That's why we won.

[A]

So what was it like to sit across from him and hear him say those things?

[B]

It's hard to sit there, especially when they're lying. You know, you want to.

[A]

You want to stand up and say something.

[B]

You're lying, motherfucker. You know what I mean?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Well, you can't. You know, what are you going to do? You just got to sit there.

[A]

Yeah. And that's it.

[B]

You show no emotion. You just got to sit there.

[A]

And was your lawyer saying, don't fucking react?

[B]

No, he told us, don't react. You know, it's hard, but we did it. We did it. Especially when they're lying. Like, it's crazy.

[A]

But at this point, he admits on the stand or says that he's part of organized crime, that he's part of the mob.

[B]

He admitted to everything. He said he knew who killed Jimmy Hoffa. Right. They're still looking for him.

[A]

He also said that you were the person that ordained him in some secret ceremony.

[B]

You guys did not.

[A]

Okay, I was just gonna ask, like, what were you, like, rubbing sticks and blood on him or something?

[B]

Must have watched movies. I didn't ordain him. The guy's a nut.

[A]

Is anyone still alive in prison? Out of those three?

[B]

He died. He got out, Ralph. He was getting life with no parole, and he got out, him and his son. He got his whole family pinched. He was getting life but never getting out. And he told on me.

[A]

They let him out, but he's dead now.

[B]

Yeah, he died from. I don't know. From lying.

[A]

From lying. Okay. The only one alive right now is Stanfa, though, right? Is he still alive?

[B]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think he's. He's in jail. I think he's. Yeah, he's alive.

[A]

Okay. Now what's interesting is here we are in Boca at a studio. You come here and you film your podcast. I thought you walk in with a big, you know, group of people to make sure you're protected, you know, and. And you're not?

[B]

No.

[A]

So you don't walk around worried about retaliation?

[B]

No.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Who's going to retaliate on me? I didn't do nothing wrong.

[A]

Well, I know, but I mean, because everyone's pointing the finger at everybody, and everybody's talking about rats, and everyone's talking about, you know, with the mob series that came out on Netflix. I'm sitting there watching people tell stories, and I'm like, oh, my God, how are these people not in trouble? Isn't that what you call a rat?

[B]

Yeah, they got license.

[A]

What about. Who's this guy? John Vesey. Is that his name?

[B]

Yeah. He's another rat.

[A]

Rat. He spent the whole. For people that haven't seen. He spent the whole documentary telling the whole story. And he was an informant, but he was somebody who was part of the group. He wasn't just, you know, he turned at an apartment.

[B]

I knew him from the neighborhood, but I knew it was. I didn't know him. I didn't know him. He was a junkie. He was in jail as a junkie.

[A]

But as you're watching a show like that and you're seeing somebody who's telling stories that was once in it. I mean, how is he walking around? How. I don't understand how that works.

[B]

They went in the program. They gave him the new identity.

[A]

Yeah, we all saw his face.

[B]

If I saw him like Sammy the Bull. Look at him. He's in Arizona just hanging out. Yeah, well, he got out. He got five years for 19 murders. He killed the kid. He got out. He sold ecstasy. He got locked up again. Now he's got new charges. Sexually assaulted. The. The girls who work for him, they should just kill him, but they just keep on giving him chances.

[A]

Right?

[B]

When you're an informant, when you work for the government, they just. You got a license, you can do whatever you want, but.

[A]

Okay, but do you think that. What the. I'm not gonna say the mob, but what people used to do, which was, like, put people in cement and kill people and retaliate in a way that was physical and violent. It doesn't seem so much like we hear about that all the time. I mean, maybe we're not hearing about it and it's still happening. Or is the worst thing that could happen is just going to jail these days?

[B]

I have no idea, Mom.

[A]

You don't know. Okay, so here's what I wanted to ask you, because I'm very curious. You're very good at not getting involved. It seems like you want to look the other way. You want to live a new life. You're doing your thing, right? How would you suggest to people that go through life getting angry, dealing with people who are not loyal, dealing with people who betray you, dealing with people that just piss you off. What would your advice be to people like that? Cause I'll give you an example. I have a 13 year old daughter, right? There was an issue that happened at school this year. She's in eighth grade. I wanted to throat punch an eighth grader because of what happened. You know, like you're driving and you get into an argument with somebody, you know, in road rage, something happens with somebody you work with or someone in your life or a family member, and you get really angry. Now, I'm not in the mobile and I have morals and values that prevent me from murdering somebody, obviously. But for someone like you, who's grown up in a really tough environment, who's been accused of a lot of things, how do you control yourself when you're enraged? But also like, what does retaliation look like to you?

[B]

You just gotta bite your tongue and move on. It ain't worth it. Especially like, you know, you get in a fight in a bar, guy starts with you, I'm in a bar, I'm with you. Guy grabs, tries to pick you up, whatever. You get in a fight, yeah. You crack them. The first thing you do is tell on you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They're all tough. Tough till they get cracked.

[A]

So like, what if I ignore it?

[B]

I don't pay attention. Look, you see all these people on the podcast? They all talk about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They want me to go back at them. I don't, I won't. So that drives them more nuts, right? I don't care what they say about me. It's all bullshit. They can say whatever they want.

[A]

But there are things that I know how to prevent myself from doing because I'm scared of going to jail. If you told me I had to spend a week in my home, and I live in a very nice home with no T and I just have to roam my house, I'd fucking go nuts. So I don't spit gum on the ground. Cause I'm scared of any sort of, you know, getting into trouble. So what scares you? Like, what keeps you in line? Is it losing your wife? Like not being away, being away from your family?

[B]

When I was in jail, they didn't hurt me. They hurt my family. They hurt my mother, my wife, my kids. That's what it hurt.

[A]

Because you were taken away?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it hurt that man. You know, the kids Grew up. You know, I went away. They were 1 and 2. I came home, they were 14 and 15.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Did they get to visit you?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm saying, you know, the visits are horrible, but, you know, I wasn't there. To graduations. You know what I mean? Like, none of that, you know?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Kindergarten. Great. First day of school.

[A]

How's your relationship with them now? How many kids do you have? Two daughters.

[B]

Two daughters?

[A]

No sons?

[B]

No. And I got snuffed at the episode.

[A]

Yeah, obviously. What's it like having girls?

[B]

They're good.

[A]

What if they call you and say, hey, Daddy, this guy's being fresh with me. Like, how do you maintain your cool?

[B]

I mean, they're good. They're good girls. I never had that situation.

[A]

Really? Are they kind of tough? Can they handle?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're pretty smart. They take it to me. Both smart girls. One's a lawyer. One works down here for Zimmerman.

[A]

Oh, okay. Nice. All right. I'm curious about what keeps you grounded, though. Like, I just talked about, like, having some integrity. What are the things that you live by that. That keep you in the moment and grounded? Like, what are. What are things you want to stay away from and things that you really, you know, value.

[B]

You got to stay away from people. But my pride. Trust everybody. You know what I mean?

[A]

That's your problem, you're saying, yeah, like,

[B]

I meet, so, oh, how you doing? You know what I mean? That's dead. No, I don't want no new friends.

[A]

Got it. Well, I feel the same way.

[B]

I don't want no new friends.

[A]

Okay, so you keep your life small even though everyone knows you. I feel very similar. A lot of people say they know me. A lot of people have a lot of things to say. I live in a world where I do podcasts, interview very prominent people all the time, But I keep my life very small because I don't like it. And our lives are very different, but similar in the way that I feel like I was betrayed by people. I feel like a lot of people told a lot of things to the media.

[B]

Look what they did to you. I mean, for real.

[A]

And to this day, I have massive issues. I think my biggest thing is loyalty and betrayal. Cause if somebody I can be, I can have somebody in the corner sucking their thumb in about two seconds with my tone and my words. Because if somebody betrays me, that's it for me. Like, I have a very serious thing with it, and that's how I really live my life. And it's Hard, because it makes me very isolated, too. I don't trust a lot of people. I don't like repeating myself. Like, I don't feel like I should have to tell people how to be loyal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's very hard to come by loyalty. So how did you and Snuff, like, create this bond?

[B]

I knew him my whole life, like, go back from my father to his grandfather. I mean, our families knew. We're from the same neighborhood in South Philly. But loyalty, it's hard. I mean, that's my downfall. I'm too loyal. And my mother. Listen, I'm sure your mother, when you first growing up, tell you, don't be a tattletale, right? Like, don't tell when your friends. Yeah, well, same thing. A rat snitch, tattletale, same thing.

[A]

So it's funny you say that because, you know, my daughter says it to me. She's like, don't be a snitch, mom. Because when she does something bad, I'm like, I'm going to call the school and make sure you're being good. But, like, in your opinion, what do you think is a snitch? Like, if you're telling on somebody to make them better, like your child or you want to make sure your kid's not getting into drugs or stupid shit, like, what is a snitch to you?

[B]

Somebody that tells.

[A]

All right, so let's talk about rats and snitches, because you like to talk all about that, right? So. But are you. Are you still in a feud with people that are rats right now? You don't go around them.

[B]

Like, I don't. You know, it's funny, all these people talk about me on the Internet. I never seen. I never met. The only one I met in my whole life is Filly Nettie. Like, all the other ones from the Europe. I never seen them in my life. If they. I know what they look like now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If there was no Internet, they could walk in here right now, I wouldn't know who they are. I was never in jail with them. I don't know them. I never seen them.

[A]

So you keep your head down and you just don't get involved at this point.

[B]

Yeah, but they just talk about me. They have to.

[A]

Do you listen to that stuff? Do you want to hear what they say?

[B]

People send me clips like, oh, they said this, they said that. Yeah, what they say.

[A]

So when you get angry, you just bite your tongue?

[B]

Yeah, I don't even get angry at it. I laugh. Listen, when they're. When somebody's talking about you. You're on their mind, right? Remember that? They're not on my mind. I don't talk about them. They're not on my mind. So I'm on their mind. We're on their mind.

[A]

Right? That's a good point.

[B]

Even. Even the haters are starting to like me, right?

[A]

So what is, what is on your mind? What are the things that consume your thoughts?

[B]

I don't pay attention to whatever they say. I don't watch it. People send me clips. Like, I got a lot of people on Instagram. Like you got. Get a million messages. You know, they send. Clip the video and all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But yeah, I try to answer everybody. It's hard, but I don't, I don't pay attention to it.

[A]

Can we go back to prison for a second? Because I'm very. You. You spent collective around 22 years in prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, how, how did you do that?

[B]

One day at a time.

[A]

Okay. What's a day in the life? Like, were you ever in like solitary confinement?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that like they see in the movies where it's like a black hole and you have a little door and they.

[B]

I mean, I'll tell you exactly what it is.

[A]

Tell me.

[B]

Well, you probably got a beautiful bathroom in your house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go in your. Go in your bathrooms. Like the bathroom outside?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there. Go in there and take the tub out and hang a mirror up and you got a toilet in the sink. That's it.

[A]

And nothing to do in a bed. Okay. But no tv.

[B]

No, no tv.

[A]

Book, you get books.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you get to decide what book. Or they just give you some shitty library and it's like Moby Dick.

[B]

Or they got pages, mail missing out of.

[A]

Oh my gosh.

[B]

But.

[A]

And you can't talk to anyone.

[B]

It's hard. You could talk through the door, but

[A]

it's hard to other people.

[B]

If you got a guy next door to you. You know, they try to talk through the vent, but it's hard to talk. You got to scream. You don't you get it? You go out during the week. You go out every morning for an hour. They wake you up for wreck. They wake up five in the morning, it's like a dog cage, little than this.

[A]

Just walk around and so how do you get through the day like that? What do you work out?

[B]

Read, you know, read books, work out.

[A]

And do you even know what time of day it is?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you could tell by the meals, the breakfast, like five o', clock, you know.

[A]

And when you were in there, did you know how long you would be in there?

[B]

No, they had me. They wouldn't let me out. I had to go to court. I was in there like eight months before I was fighting trial. They kept me in there. Hey, y', all, Poodle and Maddie here from Reality Gays.

[A]

Grab your favorite thong because for the first time, we're heading to the villa for the new season of luxury Love island usa.

[B]

I can't wait to watch Ariana babysit

[A]

these shiny, oiled up adults who I'm

[B]

pretty sure aren't there for the right reasons.

[A]

From the home wrecking bombshells to the absolute wreckage of movie night.

[B]

Pull up a daybed and join us every Wednesday for all the Love Island USA drama.

[A]

Find Reality Gays, wherever you get your podcasts. And was there a time you thought you were going crazy? I mean, listen, I did a four day solo in the middle of Joshua Tree and thought I was going crazy. I didn't know if the sun went down four times or eight times, you know what I'm saying? So, like, this is in the open. I'm just trying to get in the mindset of somebody who's put away like that.

[B]

It's hard, you know, you gotta do it one day at a time. They got people in there. It's fucking cruel. I mean, it's inhumane. Yeah, you put two dogs in a room that big, they're gonna fight, you know, of course, but it's just. You just gotta do it.

[A]

I mean, and then the times when you weren't in solitary confinement, were you mostly with a roommate? Was it a huge bunk of people?

[B]

Oh, different. Yeah. Depends what jail you're in. But no, I was in the paddy street. Now you got a roommate. We get up every day, you know, you work out, you cook, you watch tv.

[A]

And when you go in there, do you go in with the mindset of, this is my new life, I'm gonna make friends, I'm gonna stick to myself. Like, how do you make it for somebody? Listen, I had Matt Boyer on. Do you know who that is? The guy, the bookie for the Ohtani scandal.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he was.

[A]

Yeah. So he was going in. He came here to talk to me a couple days before he got sentenced. And then he went away for a year, got out. Less than a year, he's already out. But he was really nervous about going in.

[B]

He was going to a camps. He nervous? Well, still, that's like going to the Breakers.

[A]

Okay, well, still, he was very nervous. This is a guy who had never been in there. And, you know, somebody who had $30 million a year, you know, or a week, or whatever he was making. So. But for people that are wondering what it's like, I mean, how do you make friends? Do you try and keep to yourself? What's the plan?

[B]

It's funny, like, you find it, like, it depends, like, what place you're going. Like, penitentiary High, you know. But Jill's like an X ray machine. If you see a guy come in, just watch him for like three, four days, whatever he is, whatever. If he's gay, he'll find the gay people. If he's a church guy, he'll find the church guys. If he's a child molester, he'll find the child molester. If he's a decent, good guy, he'll find the good guys. It's crazy.

[A]

And are there rules? Like, you don't ask people what they're in there for?

[B]

No, I mean, there's. In the high places, you gotta show your paperwork. If you're an informant or a child molester, you gotta go. They won't even put them on a compound. I mean, a few sneak in, but.

[A]

And is there organized crime in there? Like, you know, Stanfa has been in jail, what, 40 years at this point? Do you think he's running crime in there or. Running.

[B]

No, that's all bullshit. Organized crimes, that big pharma? Yeah, that's organized crime.

[A]

Well, let's talk about that for a second.

[B]

Pelosi.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How the fuck they she makes 200,000?

[A]

Well, she's the mob. Maybe she's the mob boss.

[B]

She makes $180 million. How. How you do that? That other one. Who's the other one, Omar? What's her name? The girl.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I know who you mean.

[B]

I can't stand her. She makes 18. She made a mistake. She said she makes 18,000 years, she's worth 30 million. Where you. Where do you get 30?

[A]

Well, the numbers don't math. I mean, I get it, but also dirt.

[B]

That's the gangsters, the government that are gangsters. The Bidens.

[A]

Why do you think that so many people, though, are associated with political figures? I mean, there's people in quote, unquote, mobs or mafia that have been accused of giving money to political figures. So they get associated with mobs, so to speak.

[B]

Oh, no, I never heard of that.

[A]

Well, didn't you get somebody brought you in on a story that you were funding Biden or something, Fund him.

[B]

They pay me.

[A]

Well, I know, but why?

[B]

It's just. They just put It, Yeah, they said that I went to Philly, which I couldn't even leave. I was here, I was on, I think I was on house arrest. I made $3 million and made Biden win Pennsylvania, which is a total lie.

[A]

Well, probably because you would rather Trump win.

[B]

No, I'm a, I'm a Trump guy. But, but just how they, I mean, I have people call my lawyers, they wanted to come interview like crazy. But people, they just write what they want to write, right?

[A]

And then they'll get a.

[B]

But look at Biden. Look what they did. His son, nothing happened to him. I knew he wasn't going to jail, Hunter.

[A]

Oh, is he not in jail? I can't even remember.

[B]

No, no, he wasn't. So I'm not going to pardon my son. Listen, I don't blame him.

[A]

Oh, right, right.

[B]

I don't blame him. I wish my father could pardon me. I wish he could pardon me. But, you know, they just, they're all hypocrites. That's all it is, hypocrites.

[A]

So you believe in organized crime, but you're, you're.

[B]

Oh, I don't believe in organized crime. I'm saying.

[A]

No, but I mean, you believe that it exists.

[B]

They're the gangsters. They control. They control the country, they control the world, they control everything.

[A]

So who do you think is a tough guy right now? Like, do you think Trump is a tough guy?

[B]

I love Trump.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, he's, he's not a politician. They're politicians, they're professionals. They've been working here 50 years, 40 years. Trump's not a politician. He's a billionaire. Back in the day, he was a good looking guy. Billionaire, playboy. Right. And they make, you know. But he's not a politician, but he's smart.

[A]

So do you think anyone right now is a tough guy? Somebody that people fear or should fear?

[B]

No, they better fucking, they better not fuck around with Trump. He ain't taking, he ain't playing no games. They know, they know. China knows. Iran knows. Iran just, he just don't want to wipe him out yet.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They keep on playing, playing. They're going to see.

[A]

Right. Wait. Go back to prison for one second. I'm curious about your thoughts on Jeffrey Epstein. Do you think what happened to him that, do you think he killed himself?

[B]

At first I did, but I mean.

[A]

How? Well, let's start with obviously. I mean, I'm assuming you didn't know him.

[B]

I was where he was. I was there. I was there. I did over two years in the hole, Sutton. I Don't know something was up. Because they come around. They do. They do the rounds. The cops. You hear it, you hear the keys. They walk. You hear the keys, you know, the cops coming. You hear them. And then they got to hit the. This pod, I guess it clocks the cop. Like they have to do rounds every 15 minutes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just funny the. They fell asleep. I never. I never heard of that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cops fell asleep. But I don't know, you know?

[A]

Did that ever happen when you were there, that the cops fell asleep?

[B]

No. They used to. They had a camera on my room when I first got locked up. They put me in the shoe in Farrington. And outside me, they got a window. Same. Same cell he had with the window. They had a camera outside on me 24 hours. Right.

[A]

And that was before the days of Jeffrey Epstein.

[B]

This was 1999.

[A]

Right. Which kind of doesn't make sense, why somebody like him, they wouldn't have a camera on him too, right?

[B]

I don't know. I mean. I mean, he could have hung himself, you know, I've seen guys hang themselves. I mean, but.

[A]

Well, have you ever seen people with egos like his? I didn't think they should.

[B]

They should fucking cut his balls off anyway. They should kill him anyway. Why? Well, he did to the girls. I mean, come on. Okay, I was sick.

[A]

But don't you think that he could have. I think that they wanted to keep him alive because he had so much information and wanted to see if he would be a rat, so to speak.

[B]

Yeah, probably. Yeah, they were probably trying. Right? Hillary might have been in the jail. The Clintons don't fuck around.

[A]

So you think the Clintons are.

[B]

No, I'm not saying. I'm just saying they don't. They don't play games, though. Right.

[A]

All right, so I just want to understand you a little more. What? Does anything scare you? Something must be scary to you.

[B]

No.

[A]

Sharks flying. I mean, I'm not talking about.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, Yeah. I don't like heights.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

A friend of mine bought me Christmas a couple years ago. Jump out of plane, parachute. I would never do that.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I'd never do that.

[B]

I ain't fucking with that.

[A]

No, I'm not fucking with that either. I was asked to be on the Amazing Race. Do you know that show?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was petrified. Also this new one they have where you go to Jordan and they do. What is it, like Special Forces? They have the celebrities that go. And the first thing they all have you do is jump out backwards from a Helicopter and land in the water.

[B]

I won, though. I'm afraid of that.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, that's that.

[A]

What else? Anything else?

[B]

No, I love animals.

[A]

Me, too. Oh, yeah? I've seen you with some dogs. You have dogs now?

[B]

Yeah, I have five and done that, too. Yeah, I love animals. Horses. I can ride. I can get on a horse right now and ride.

[A]

You would like a horse.

[B]

It's like riding a bicycle. You never forget.

[A]

Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. And also, you know, I'm curious because you said you never got into drugs, but there are people that have issues with addiction, and horses are part of an addiction therapy. Have you ever heard that? That people. Some people with addictions go and do these programs with horses because the relationship with a horse and a person that's getting out of being an addict makes them stronger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, so let's talk about what you're doing now, then. Tell me.

[B]

Podcasts, a little snuff.

[A]

How often does that come out?

[B]

Every week on Patreon. I got the pod. I mean, they shadow banners. They hate us. YouTube haters.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. I guess we talk about Trump. I mean, you know, we like Trump. I don't know.

[A]

But you're on. You're on Patreon, right? So it's behind a payroll on YouTube.

[B]

They. They shadow ban.

[A]

Oh, got it.

[B]

Okay. They just said they send snuff. A thing today to say. Cause we curse. You're worried about me cursing? You go on YouTube. They got girls doing sex right there. They're worried about me cursing. That's nuts. The world, they're all up. The liberals are fucked up.

[A]

Okay. And so it's all behind a paywall. It's once a week. But what are you talking about? Are you talking anything?

[B]

Sports cases, try to get people out of jail, politics, anything.

[A]

Well, so, like, what kind of things are, like, on the forefront of your mind right now? Is there anyone in jail you're trying to get out of jail?

[B]

There's a couple guys.

[A]

Who?

[B]

Marty. To set it. He's innocent. He's been in 33 years.

[A]

What? What did they accuse him of?

[B]

Extortion. Okay, 33 years. Come on. There's quite a few guys. There's a lot of guys in Philly that got out. My lawyer got out. There was a guy, 43 years on death row, innocent.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

43 years.

[A]

Terrible.

[B]

I mean, listen, everybody in jail says they're innocent. Everybody's not innocent.

[A]

Did he get out this one or you're working out?

[B]

He Got out? Yeah, he got out. There's about five, six of them. But we're working on. We're trying to help, you know, wait,

[A]

can we talk about what happens when you get out of jail? Because I've had a couple guys on that were in jail for 20 years, and one of them, it's always stuck with me that when he got out, I mean, he lives in a trailer still to this day, and he was found innocent, you know, after 20 years, that they made a mistake. He has no money, can't get a job. He's a fellow, you know, convicted felon or whatever, and he didn't even do it. And so what kind of program? Like, did they help you when you got out of jail? Start over.

[B]

That's what probation is, you know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Supervised release.

[A]

When you get out, they help you get a job.

[B]

Yeah, they're supposed to. No. Every time I got supervised, at least I got locked up again. They couldn't wait to put me back in jail.

[A]

But did they give you a plan? Like, what's the plan? How are you gonna get a job anyway?

[B]

Find a job.

[A]

Well, this is what I heard you say that, like, you'll hire anyone as long as they're not a pedophile and a rat. And a rat, right?

[B]

I'll hire anybody. I'll give anybody a second chance. Look at Meek Mills. They did him. He was. Thank God for Michael Rubin. He got a case when he was a kid. It was a gun case or something. And whatever he did, they gave him probation. The judge hated him, gave him 11 years probation. They kept on violating him. It's going over for like 10, 12 years. Right. I mean, come on. Supposed to help you, not put you, not hurt you.

[A]

Right, Right. So when people get out of jail, do you find that you get a lot of people that reach out and

[B]

say, hey, we hired some people? Yeah, I got a few of my workers. One guy did 33 years. Good guy, great worker, and has proved

[A]

to be really good.

[B]

Yeah, great worker.

[A]

You know, it's funny you say about that on Animal Channel. They had pit bull. Do you remember that show?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was fucking amazing. They only hired guys who were parolees because they were the most misunderstood and the pit bulls were the most. And so we have an extra large bully. And I always say to my husband, like, you know, we should be giving chances to people like that. And, you know, listen, some of those people are the most hard working because they. They do not want to go back.

[B]

No, they don't want to go back.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, and it's hard to.

[B]

It's sad because they can't. I mean, you're a felon. Nobody's gonna hire you, right?

[A]

And then they're trying to make ends meet and they end up having to steal because they can't.

[B]

Listen, I have friends of mine, like, they. They got out and they just say, boca here. They go. Rent an apartment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They do the background check on you, right? They ain't right into you. They don't want you. They do, you know, whatever. They Google you, whatever.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

They're not gonna. They don't want you there because you're a phone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But if you're a child molester, they gotta give you a place. But it can't be. It's got to be a mile from school. Like Megan's Law or some shit.

[A]

Oh, yes, Megan's Law. I just read about that.

[B]

Yeah, but they cater to them in jail, too.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Oh, yeah. If you put your hands on one, you get extra time for a hate crime, it's called.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. Sick.

[A]

So. But I know you believe I saw you say they should have a rat law as much as they should have a Megan's Law. Like, you should be able to know that these rats live next door to you.

[B]

How about. I'm saying, bull. Live next door to you in Palm Beach. You got a beautiful house. You're in Palm Beach. Your neighbor, they changed his name to fucking Sammy. Whatever.

[A]

Smith.

[B]

Sammy Smith?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You think he's a nice guy, right? Well, you don't know he killed 19 people, right? I mean, right or wrong?

[A]

Well, right, but I would have thought that there is some law that you have to.

[B]

No. Once they change their identity, you never know.

[A]

Terrible. So, all right, so you hire these guys. You have this cheesesteak place. You live in Boca. What are you doing down in Boca?

[B]

I live in Boca, yeah.

[A]

But what do you.

[B]

I've been here since I got out.

[A]

How long ago was that?

[B]

2011.

[A]

Oh, so you've been here for almost 15 years.

[B]

Whatever.

[A]

So what kind of shit are you getting into down here? You go to the beach and surf? Like, what do you do all day?

[B]

Golf.

[A]

Golf?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Go to the beach, golf.

[A]

And you still are with your wife?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many years have you been married?

[B]

30. 29. 30? Yes, 30.

[A]

We maybe should check on that. So you get your anniversary, right? If it's going to be 30 soon. Okay. And then your girls, they live somewhere here. You see them?

[B]

Yeah, my one daughter lives here. My one lives in New York. She's a lawyer.

[A]

Okay. And you sound like somebody that always has a plan. And you're. So you're back and forth between here and Philly.

[B]

Yeah, well, Philly with the podcast with the cheesesteak place. Now we're open to other places.

[A]

It's a lot of traveling and so. And each week.

[B]

Go ahead. We're going to start franchising. Okay. A couple months.

[A]

Have you gotten into the process of learning how to franchise and all that stuff?

[B]

No, it's a lot of.

[A]

It is a lot. I had somebody come on the show just to break down how to franchise, and it's a lot of stuff you don't think about.

[B]

People think it's easy.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's not. Yeah, but that could be cool for you guys. But as you said, everyone's on Ozempic, so you gotta find Middle America places.

[B]

Yeah, Boca's no good. Everybody says open in Boca. Throw on Ozempic. Right.

[A]

Or go to cold places like Alaska where they're all beefy, you know, Or a lot of men. What do you want in the future? Like, what do you want out of life? You're still young. I mean, you got so much time. Yeah, well, okay.

[B]

That young. Well, I. Minus the time I was in jail, so I'm only 44. 42. Right.

[A]

It's like going into space. It takes the time.

[B]

It serves you, though, Jill. It does. It does.

[A]

Why? Why do you say that?

[B]

Well, you're in bed, 8 o', clock, 9 o', clock, you're locked in. You're in bed. No drinking, no smoking, no going out, work out.

[A]

You know what I always thought, though? Because they always say that stress will kill you. If I was in jail, I would probably die of a heart attack because that, to me feels so stressful. So you think, like, when you're in jail, people in there just grow accustomed to it and they learn how to adapt. And it doesn't put stress on your body. Like the everyday world of fighting and all that stuff would just adjust them,

[B]

make the best of it. But you're a woman. You shouldn't be in jail. You shouldn't be in that position.

[A]

Well, of course not, but I'm just, you know, also, what else I like to hear, like, what you do. Do you watch Netflix? Like, what the hell? What do you do all day?

[B]

I watch news and sports.

[A]

News and sports. What's your favorite team?

[B]

My favorite team sport? Yeah, I like hockey. Hockey Flyers.

[A]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[B]

I like every sport, but hockey is my favorite team. They're the toughest. I Don't care what anybody says.

[A]

So you golf all day?

[B]

Not every day, but I golf. I haven't played, though. I've been traveling. I haven't played. Okay.

[A]

And anything else big that you guys are working on? On your podcast, you said you're talking about people that you want to get out of prison. What other stuff?

[B]

Yeah, that's the. But, no, just a podcast. I just do it to do it to help try to help people. I don't do it. We don't make no money. I don't do nothing for money. The cheesesteak place, I want to franchise them, put them all over the country. Couple, five, four, five years, three years. Sell it like Jersey Mike's did for 8 million.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And retire.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right.

[B]

Go buy an airplane in a 300 foot yacht.

[A]

Okay, well, that's what I was going to say. If you get all this money from

[B]

anything, go to Saint Barts, take care of my friends and. And family, and that's it. Okay.

[A]

Take care of your.

[B]

I like that. Yeah, I take care. If I'm good, my friends are good.

[A]

Last couple questions. What does. You know, I feel like there's a code that you grew up with. I don't know if somebody gave you this code, but of loyalty and of keeping your word and of being true to your core, which is either your wife or your kids or your close friends.

[B]

It's all we got is our word.

[A]

And your name, where did you get that from?

[B]

No, from my growing up. My father always told my mother, don't tell. Be loyal, don't lie. The only reason people lie is because they're scared.

[A]

Right. And so if a guy's scared to

[B]

go to jail, he'll say anything.

[A]

Right? Right. Right.

[B]

That's it. He don't want to die in there. He'll say anything.

[A]

Yeah. So. But you believe also that a core value is to keep your mouth shut.

[B]

Yeah. Mind your business. Like, what do you care? I said anything. Like, what do you care what somebody else is doing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The truth.

[A]

It's a good piece of advice because everybody, all they do right now is gossip.

[B]

Right. Everybody minds everybody's business. Like, yeah, what do you care? It ain't my business. You know? Yeah.

[A]

Last question then. It's about being misunderstood. That's the name of my show. Do you feel like you're misunderstood? I mean, you must, because that's all people talk about, that you have this huge, scary background and you're really.

[B]

They believe. Yeah. I mean, they don't know me. You know what I Mean, they believe what's in the paper, on the shows, the tv, the clips they show.

[A]

Do you mind being misunderstood?

[B]

No, I don't. Don't bother me. Like I said.

[A]

Well, I guess you don't mind as long as it doesn't get you thrown in jail.

[B]

I mean, how many people I got out of jail? I got more people out of jail than any lawyer.

[A]

You mean because they pointed the finger at you? They let them go and they let them go.

[B]

That's how easy it was. All you got to do is tell me. Joey told me to do it. Joey told me to do it. They go home and I got to fight for my life.

[A]

Yet nobody retaliates on them?

[B]

No, I wouldn't retaliate.

[A]

Right. So you don't mind being misunderstood, but what do you think is the biggest misconception about you?

[B]

Biggest misconception? That's a good question. We help everybody. Like, we, you know, they got us down as bad guys. This, that we help everybody. Any restaurant I go in, every valet parker, waitress, waiter, bartender, they love us because we take care of everybody.

[A]

Yeah. So the misconception would be that you're this big, tough, mean guy who's putting people in the ground, but you're not like everybody.

[B]

Oh, how'd you get in that restaurant? Every time I go in, I give him $100 tip, $200 tip. Do that, you'll get in. Right. You know, people. People are cheap, especially people with money.

[A]

Right. Before I let you go, anything that you're following right now that you think is an interesting scandal, like when that Ohtani thing happened, did you follow it? I know you were into gambling, so you must have followed that. But. So is there something like that that you're like, oh, this is a good story.

[B]

Yeah, I seen that. Let me see. I don't know. There's nothing really going on. The only thing you hear is the Iran stuff now. Right. That's why I watch the news and sports all day. I don't watch really shows. Once in a while I did, like Code. I watched, like, series and all.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Peaky Blinders and then, you know, series, right?

[A]

Yeah. So if you're gonna watch series like that, do you watch, like, gangster stuff or you're watching, like, rom coms?

[B]

No, I watched. What's the other one? That was good. What's the guy? Breaking Bad. Oh, yeah, that was good. There's a couple of them were good.

[A]

Yeah, Ozark.

[B]

Ozark. I was good, too.

[A]

I figured.

[B]

Yeah, Ozark was good. Yeah, that was funny.

[A]

All right, so tell people where they can listen to your podcast and where they can find you if they want to find out more about your franchise, if they want to get a cheesesteak, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

We're on Patreon. I'll give Ben the link to put up. We're on Patreon and Instagram and all that. I'll make Ben put it up. I don't even know it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The cheesesteak place. I know the address. 30, 3020 S. Broad St, Philadelphia.

[A]

How often are you there?

[B]

When I'm affiliate, every day.

[A]

Well, I mean, are you there once a week?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we got the. We're up like two blocks from the stadium. We got the World cup coming.

[A]

Oh, no way. Okay. And do you guys. What's it like there? You can get your cheesesteak and you can sit down and enjoy it.

[B]

Yeah, you go this side is outside and then go inside.

[A]

You have, like, TVs for people to

[B]

watch all the games on.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

When you come, you'll see it.

[A]

I'm gonna come when your husband come visit you. If you make me. If you make me a skinny.

[B]

I'll make you a skinny cheesesteak. Yeah, I got you.

[A]

Don't forget that. If you end up coining that, that's mine.

[B]

I'm gonna give it to you. You got it?

[A]

Okay. Little avocado. You know, that kind of thing in it.

[B]

All right, you got it.

[A]

I appreciate you.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. God,

[A]

Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Ukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email [e-mail] that's spelled M I S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. I'm Tobin Heath.

[B]

And I'm Kristen Press. We're World cup champions, Olympians, and the

[A]

hosts of the recap show. Week in and week out, we sit

[B]

down with sports legends, cultural icons and

[A]

global change makers to talk everything from

[B]

clutch games to causes that matter.

[A]

This is about creating the future of women's sports. A future that's honest, inclusive, and real. Join us for our reimagined journey.

[B]

Follow and listen to the recap show

[A]

wherever you get your podcasts.