← Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Nigel Barker Breaks His Silence on America’s Next Top Model — Behind the Scenes, The Firing, and What Really Happened | Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel #363
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- [00:00]
Allie Jackson
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- [01:57]
Rachel Yukatel
Nigel, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood. How are you?
- [02:01]
Nigel Barker
It's a pleasure. I'm very well. How are you?
- [02:03]
Rachel Yukatel
I'm great. So I've been watching this three part docu series which I found fascinating. You know, I grew up in the time where this was a really big show. It just wasn't something that I actually watched at the time. I guess maybe I would see it on all the entertainment news shows because it was the biggest show around.
- [02:18]
Nigel Barker
Clearly they say, Rachel, you must be one of the only people who didn't watch it.
- [02:22]
Rachel Yukatel
I know, I know. But you know, I saw the clips. Well, the reason why I didn't watch it is because, you know, it wasn't my World. I wasn't. I didn't grow up tall and a model. And so I felt like.
- [02:33]
Nigel Barker
No one believes you. By the way people are watching this. They're looking at you and they're like thinking, first of all, you could easily be a model. And clearly you should have probably been on the show. So, hey, whatever, but I'll take it.
- [02:45]
Rachel Yukatel
Thank you. No, but I knew the show very well. I was fascinated by it. And, you know, watching it back in the three part, I mean, I binged it. I watched all three episodes and it was fascinating. And I realized why during COVID most people went back and watched if they hadn't watched before or watched again. And it struck a different chord than it did back then, obviously. So I clearly wanna get into it. I'm. I'm so glad you're here because I. Of course I know your face. If somebody showed me a picture of you and this hadn't even come out, of course I would've known you because you guys made such a difference and you were celebrities, right? Automatic celebrities. But. Okay, so here we are. And I wanna know about you because this famous face has a. A background that I would have never known about had I not seen the show. And I find that a little more fascinating. Right, so let's start with you. So I love your accent. You're from the UK?
- [03:38]
Nigel Barker
Yes, actually, you know, 8 Mile in Detroit. I just thought an English accent was good for television.
- [03:43]
Rachel Yukatel
But wouldn't that be funny? It would be very smart.
- [03:47]
Nigel Barker
Sorry. Facetious enough. But yeah, you're right, I'm from the UK. I'm from London. I've been here for 27 years. So, yeah, I'm an American citizen. I've got two American kids and I married a girl from Alabama. So I'm, you know, at this point about as American as it can be outside of the accent.
- [04:06]
Rachel Yukatel
Right, right. I love that. But tell me about your upbringing. What got you into loving fashion? I know your mom had an influence for that.
- [04:14]
Nigel Barker
She did. My mother was a model herself in the sort of 60s and what have you. And, um, you know, that kind of. My mother's from Sri Lanka and she had partaked in sort of the pageant world originally, which kind of got her into modeling and into singing and acting and all those things. And so I kind of grown up around that. When I was a kid, I never really thought about, say, going into fashion myself. I was. Went to an English boarding school and the direction I was being pointed in was medicine, and I was studying biology, chemistry, physics and maths. And that was it. And I was sort of on a sideline for myself. I was taking courses in fashion design, weaving, pattern cutting, all these things. Outside of. My brother had got into fashion and was. Had a little fashion company. And so I had this sort of desire to kind of do what he was doing because it seems so fun, cool, different, not the traditional. So this sort of my world sort of took a shift when my mother actually entered me into a TV show. Funnily enough, this is ironic because obviously America's Next Top Model was probably the leading reality television show for models. But I actually got my break on a show called the Clothes show in the UK, which is one of the longest running English TV shows ever in the late 80s. And I didn't win. It was a modeling search, like a reality show, but it was not a whole bunch of episodes like Top Model. It was a very condensed show and I got in the top three and I got a model contract. Kind of like set me off into the modeling world and medicine went one way and fashion and modeling and this new, new world. But another came that came sort of was my new direction. And, you know, the rest of the rest is sort of history, as they say.
- [06:02]
Rachel Yukatel
So. So from doing that show, you got a contract from people seeing you or the show helped you get that contract?
- [06:09]
Nigel Barker
Yeah, no, the show helped me get the contract. I didn't win, so I got nothing.
- [06:12]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:13]
Nigel Barker
Which is, you know, the nature of how it was back then. But, you know, one of the things about doing a show like that and then doing a show like Top Models was that it also showed me what could happen, what doors could be open. And, you know, even if you don't win, you know, there are, you know, opportunities that arise. And, you know, I was. I was out there. I had to do it all by myself. I had to go get an agency. And people knew of me from the show, but it was more just that I knew it existed. I think growing up as a young man in the UK and sort of the 70s and 80s, I. Fashion and modeling and photography, they were not real jobs as far as I was concerned, or at least as far as I was educated.
- [06:50]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [06:51]
Nigel Barker
And I then sort of saw that they could be and were. And even though my mother was. Had been a model, it. It was very, you know, I came from a very conservative kind of traditional kind of background, and those were not options for me. No one laid those out as, oh, have you ever thought of trying this?
- [07:09]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [07:09]
Nigel Barker
You know, so. And back then there was no such thing as a degree in photography. So that wasn't even an option. I had always had a love of photography and had taken photography lessons from my biology teacher when I was a kid at school and learned how to print and all that kind of stuff. So I had this sort of background. But it's only when I started working as a model in fashion that I'm like, wait a second, that guy, he's a photographer. This is another side of photography. Because otherwise photography to me was shooting wildlife or landscapes. You know what I mean? That's what I've been taught.
- [07:39]
Rachel Yukatel
Not this, you know, but getting into photography, I'm curious if you saw or felt that you had a certain eye or did you learn that from being the model and seeing, oh wait, there's different angles or there's different looks or like how did you find out that you were.
- [07:53]
Nigel Barker
That's a great question. I mean, I think that both. I mean, I think that there's a combination of, you know, I remember working as well, working as a student as sort of taking pictures of kids at school and noticing if there were certain types of shots that would. People would sort of go towards that, they would want, they would say, please can I have a print of that? And those shots were always the ones of them sort of winning, scoring, looking like they were looking their best. I mean, it seems obvious, right? But those moments which were the pivotal moments, which were actually hard to achieve because if you're photographing someone in a sporting event, you never know when they're about to score a goal, right? You know, you'd have to capture. But I would sort of set it up so that they were doing that moment and then capture that and, and then you would have that moment and same like in a school play, if you just try and shoot it, everyone has their mouth open and everyone doesn't, it doesn't look great. But if you set it up and you frame it the way you want it, but how you people imagine it, you kind of get the shot. So I kind of figured those pieces out when I was at school only because I would react to what people needed or wanted to see. Then came the sort of fashion industry. And being a model, I got to work with hundreds of some of the best photographers all over the world. I mean, I lived in Milan, Paris, New York, Los Angeles, all my young, early, sort of late teens, early 20s, got to work with all these fabulous photographers. I never actually assisted officially myself or got any qualifications as photographer, but when I met my wife and sister in Law in 1994. I pretty much was like, I've never seen such sort of beautiful people. I want to photograph them. And they became my early muses.
- [09:37]
Rachel Yukatel
Wow.
- [09:37]
Nigel Barker
And I sort of turned my life from being this model, which I realized too, at that point. Like, look, I've done this for six years. I've had a great time. I've traveled the world. But it was also, I started in the sort of the end of the sort of supermodel era, where, you know, the Claudia Schiffers and Naomi Campbell's and Christy Turlington's were, you know, Cindy Crawford's were the names. And it was all about that moment. And then you could see sort of Kate Moss and who I had worked with as a model and the sort of Anna Sui and, you know, just different designers that were coming up that were much more sort of, if you like, the look was heroin chic and androgyny, and it was a very different vibe.
- [10:19]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [10:20]
Nigel Barker
But you can see the whole fashion world was shifting. And I'm a big guy. I'm six four. I played rugby at school. I was never going to be an androgynous super, you know, a model. I wasn't going to fit in. But I didn't want to throw away years of what I'd learned. And also, I had a love of the industry. I loved the differences and the diversity and the oddballness of the fashion industry and how it brought together so many great creatives under one roof and you all had to collaborate together to get the job done. You know, so many different pieces to it. So I always loved all of that. And I hence change. And then now I met two girls, you know, Chrissy, who would become my wife, who I was, you know, completely smitten with them. And then so I had this sort of like, here's this new direction for me.
- [11:07]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. I'm curious as a male model, you know. Cause I've heard all the stories and seen, you know, even on this new docu series, what it's like to be a model. And the waiting and the anxiety and the self depth. Did it feel like that for a male?
- [11:26]
Nigel Barker
It can do. I mean, I think it's different. I mean, again, back then, it was very different. The world was different. We didn't have cell phones. They didn't exist. You know, I communicated my wife by writing her letters when I didn't see her. Maybe get to speak to her once a week on a phone on a Sunday when the rates were lower. I mean, you know, guys, this is a time when you'd go to a payphone in the street to call someone or you give them the pay phone number and they would call you and you would grab the payphone. That's, that's an old. So those were the things, you know, and, and you life was just different and models were different as far as how many of them we were. There were, you know, I'd be in New York City and there would be like maybe a hundred of us total in the city modeling, you know, now there are thousands and everyone's modeling and it's all over the world and it's just the big thing. You know, you'd be in an agency in London and an agency would take you on and you would, if they took you on, you pretty much were going to work because that's how. And the agencies would invest in you. So you know, they would pay for you to live, they would pay for your photo shoots, they would pay for you to travel. It would, you know, now, and certainly for the past 10, 15 years even, you know, it's all on you as the model to pay for yourself. And it's almost a little bit more like throwing spaghetti at a wall and then seeing which sticks.
- [12:40]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [12:40]
Nigel Barker
You know, and it changed a lot how it all worked. And it's not to say that that doesn't still happen where some agents see some talent and goes, I believe in you and invests.
- [12:50]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
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Nigel Barker
But it's not nearly as frequent as it used to be. So, so I wasn't as, it wasn't as terrifying. But I mean at the same time, you know, there is still no such thing really as a sort of full figured, plus size male model. You know, that's not a thing that we even gets really ever discussed.
- [13:10]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
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Nigel Barker
You know what I mean? That's not to say that there aren't sort of big and tall stores for men and men who are sort of larger, like myself, for example, who's 64 and 2 30, you know, could model or do something but it's less described. You know, I think that that is actually something which perhaps even could be addressed, but it never really comes up.
- [13:31]
Rachel Yukatel
That's a really interesting point. I never thought of that. But like for example, my husband is 64 and 230 and you know, he goes to certain stores that have clothes that fit him better in general because it's just harder. And he has a great body and looks, you know, but it's, it's harder for him to figure it out. But he's also not the type of guy that's looking at fash magazines for anything, you know, at all. So I guess there's not too much of the, you know, that kind of an audience for someone like that. But anyway, so as a photographer, you move forward. And how do you start getting your own name as a photographer?
- [14:02]
Nigel Barker
You know, it's one of those things. Again, there's no. Because I get asked this and have been asked this over the years by photographers and young people trying to make it in fashion, and there's no kind of golden sort of rule or way to do something. I think what I did and what worked for me because I had been a model for sort of six, seven years, knew a lot of people, knew a lot of agencies, traveled around the world, new people, and then now had my girlfriend who was a model, and she was doing very well, was doing Vogue, Italian Vogue, all these different things, a few covers here and there was, you know, and then she has an identical twin. So she was fascinating to look at. Watch their model. I was able to build my portfolio. What I did was, is that I would go to the agencies and go to the models and the people I knew and would photograph them in their early stages of their career. And, you know, when I lived in Milan originally, it was almost like a sort of a Melrose Place type of situation where all the models live in these buildings together, right? We lived in this one building called the Darsana in Milan. And probably about 150 models living in this building. And I knew everyone because I'd been there for two years. And so I would. And they knew I was the model who was becoming a photographer sort of thing. And I would tell everybody, look, when you come back from your photo shoots every day, please don't go to the bathroom and shower and remove all your makeup and wash out your hair. Yeah, come and see me. And then if you would. If you would let me photograph you with this professional hair and makeup that you've just had done, because that's something I didn't have access to. I didn't have a hair and a makeup artist sitting around waiting to do things. So these models would show up and sometimes they wouldn't bother because, you know, it just looked normal. But oftentimes they would have had the best hair and makeup. Crazy stuff. Amazing eyes that create, you know, huge hair or just whatever it was. There's something really spectacular about great makeup and hair. Clearly, it's what transforms a picture, right? And they would come and see me and I would have the opportunity to photograph them. Oftentimes in the late afternoon lights. It would be the afternoon in the summers in Italy. And, you know, and I would photo and this. I did the same thing in Paris and Milan, in New York. And I started moving around doing this and I built up my portfolio. And I got known by a lot of the agencies as the guy who could build a portfolio for these young models. And Click Agency in New York actually took me on. And I ended up shooting every single model in the agency. And they created a book that. That was done by me called Click Silver that was all printed on metal and silver. We did a big exhibition in New York and it was every model's time to shine Click Silver. And I painted every model from head to toe in silver paint and shot this whole thing and then printed it on silver. This big exhibition in New York. Again, all these things are very different these days, but that's how it was for me. That was my kind of moment. And a lot of people saw this and I got a bunch of breaks. Interview magazine, Paper magazine, all these different people calling me. And it kind of snowballed and. But you know what? It was a lot of work. I mean, this is all. This wasn't overnight. This is years in the making. Six years modeling, four or five years working as a photographer. So by the end of it, you know, before I even did Top Model, I'd been shooting for. You know, I started top model in 2003, so I'd been in the industry for a decade.
- [17:22]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [17:22]
Nigel Barker
You know.
- [17:22]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. That's so fascinating. All right, so at this point, you know, I heard. Well, I only heard it from the docu series, but it seems like you were almost cast. They were looking for a good looking white photographer.
- [17:35]
Nigel Barker
So funny enough, you know, the funny thing is, is that. And this is what's interesting to me, that was news to me when I heard Jay say that on the show.
- [17:43]
Rachel Yukatel
Oh, no way.
- [17:44]
Nigel Barker
Yeah. On the documentary, I had no idea. So, you know, when I. What happened to me, My story of the Is in fact that Nolay Marin, who is a stylist on the show of season one, who is a good friend of mine and someone who I'd worked with in the business, came to me and said, nigel, they're looking for photographers for next season, season two, to do a shoot, one of the shoots, one of the weeks for one of the episodes. Would you be interested? And I'm like, yeah, that'd be so much fun. I've never been on TV before. That would be really fun. Like, I don't even know what that means, but let's have a go. So he literally took me shopping, and we bought a pair of shoes that I thought was cool. And you. And that was about as much as I could afford to change my look. And I tried to dress up to look tv, went to Jane Manuel's home where there was. One of the executive producers was there, Anthony Dominici and Jay. And they were literally, like, Gave me a magazine, like, flick through the magazine and critique the pictures. And so I kind of did that. I'd seen the first season of Top Model on TV like everyone else, and I kind of went through it, and I just gave them my honest critique. And they were like, look, we'll let you know if, you know, if this works. We like your work. We think there'll be a couple of good shoots for you maybe coming up in the next few seasons. We'll call you in a couple of weeks. Two weeks went by nothing. A month went by nothing. Six weeks went by nothing.
- [19:07]
Rachel Yukatel
Were you disappointed?
- [19:09]
Nigel Barker
Yeah. No. Yes and no. I mean, yes as in, you know, my ego probably was like, oh, I wish I could have been on tv. That would have been fun.
- [19:16]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [19:16]
Nigel Barker
And then I was like, oh, well, you know, nothing lost. I tried and I didn't get it. I mean, that's happened. And then modeling industry, in the fashion industry, you're used to rejection. Rejection is nine tenths of the game.
- [19:28]
Rachel Yukatel
Right?
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Nigel Barker
Right. So, like, that's. Every answer is no, and you're not. You haven't got the job. Very few are every. You know, if you're lucky, if someone ever says yes, I want to book you.
- [19:36]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [19:36]
Nigel Barker
So that wasn't really a surprise. You're like, oh, okay, well, not this time. I guess I didn't get it, you know, and then I got this call, and one of my assistants at my studio in New York was like, hey, I think this is. This is that thing you went for the other day. And I was like, really? And they. I spoke to them and it was. They were like, hi, yeah, with this Top Model. And sorry, we haven't contacted you, but your tape actually has continued to go up and up in the. You know, at the. With the producers, and it's at the highest level. And they would. They're interested to know if you would be interested in a more permanent role on the show, not just as a photographer for an episode, but as the permanent judge and photographer for an entire season of Top Model. And I, to be honest, was totally. My breath was taken away. I had no idea what that even meant. But it also, I didn't even know that I could do it because I had bought jobs booked in the weeks ahead. I wasn't just free hanging out, waiting to be booked by Top Model.
- [20:32]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
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Nigel Barker
You know, so it was. I was a juggling act for the first season for me to try and figure out jobs that I was doing. And back then, I would get hired as a photographer sometimes for a month straight, shooting for a certain client just every day, you know, so it wasn't as easy as it sounds. A lot of those types of jobs don't exist anymore. But back then, that's what it was like. So. Yeah, you know, yeah, it was. It was interesting. So when I heard that on the show, I was like, huh. So, you know, wait a second here. That's not what I heard, Jay. But I'm like. I even called him afterwards. I'm like, what happened? Because. Yeah, well, that's. They, you know, they said you had to. You had to be a good photographer to get the job. You couldn't just hire anyone. But they did want someone who was a sort of white, straight male.
- [21:16]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [21:17]
Nigel Barker
And you came in and you ticked all the boxes, as in, you could do it. You. You know, you had the talent. You came recommended by no lay, you'd done great work, and you were considered a white male. And I'm like, well, that's just ironic because I'm actually half Sri Lankan.
- [21:30]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [21:31]
Nigel Barker
You know, and never in my life have I been identified as white. But, you know, whatever. I want to be on tv, go with it.
- [21:40]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. Oh, that's so funny. So at this point, I'm curious, because you said, you know, you bought a pair of shoes and this was a little bit hard for you. Did they offer you enough money that you were like, wait a minute, this is going to be really exciting. Or at the beginning, was it, like minimal?
- [21:57]
Nigel Barker
It wasn't crazy money? No, it wasn't great, but it was.
- [21:59]
Rachel Yukatel
It wasn't going to replace what you were already doing that you could quit.
- [22:03]
Nigel Barker
It was, like, fun. It was like, just like a job, to be honest. It was like a gig. It was a few thousand dollars is actually what it was per episode. So it wasn't. It was bad, but it was. It was like. It was like a photography job.
- [22:15]
Rachel Yukatel
Like, the exposure. You probably thought, this is going to be amazing.
- [22:18]
Nigel Barker
Yeah. The roll of the dice was. And this is the thing. And I think even Top Model contestants have talked about this, like, whether there is a negative impact for being on a reality TV show. And I knew that even Myself going in as a photographer back then in, you know, 23 years ago, I knew that the fashion industry was so exclusive and so kind of hard and, you know, to get into. And people were very judgmental and. And that's how it was. And kind of still is to be at some extent, but back then, particularly to be on a primetime commercial television show, despite how great it was, would have its drawbacks because people would frown upon it thinking you'd sold out. Right. Especially if you worked in, like, the high fashion, cool sort of hipster side of fashion. It's one thing if you did sort of super commercial work, but I didn't. I worked in a sort of very. On the very sort of higher echelons of kind of doing cool stuff and kind of, you know, stuff that was almost on the fringes. And. And so then it was like, okay, well, but I thought to myself, how do I become Stephen Meisel? How do I become Bruce Weber? How do I become Irving Penn Avedon? You know, as not to say that I ever did become any of those things, but the point being that as a young photographer, those are your idols. And you're, you know, you're like, how, how. How does one do that? Other than obviously getting lucky with your work and getting all these opportunities. But this was an opportunity to be a household name.
- [23:41]
Rachel Yukatel
Sure.
- [23:41]
Nigel Barker
Because people all over the country, if not all over the world, would soon know your name, your work and your face, which is unusual for photographer because a lot of times you can ID say, you know, Annie Leibovitz's pictures. But do you know what she would look like if you passed her in the street? Maybe Anna Liebovitz is not a great example because she's quite well known.
- [24:01]
Rachel Yukatel
No, but it's a great example.
- [24:03]
Nigel Barker
But it's the idea that that was new. And so that was something that had, you know, that I kind of rolled the dice on and thought, well, let's give it a shot. And who knew? I mean, you know, it was funny because we were not really in Vogue when we first started Top Model. And of course, by the end, Italian Vogue was our magazine sponsor and Andre Leon Talley, editor at large of American Vogue, was the judge. And so we became very in Vogue as the show went on.
- [24:29]
Rachel Yukatel
Wow. So you had seen Cycle one. And by the way, why do they call it Cycles? Is this like a modeling term? I don't understand. Why wasn't it season one episode? What, like, what is that?
- [24:39]
Nigel Barker
You know, what do you not know about Top Model? Have you not known that we are known for creating our own vernacular.
- [24:44]
Rachel Yukatel
I do know that. So this was a created work and
- [24:48]
Nigel Barker
all the rest, you know, it's sort of. I mean, I think that there is some rhyme and reason to it outside of the fact most TV shows, when they do a season, it's a season a year. But because we were asked to do two seasons a year, they decided to call it cycles and it became a thing again. It was just, you know, if there's one thing that the, you know, Tyra and her sort of crew were good at, was coming up with words and names that became catchy and different and for some reason caught on and became unique to Top Model that then, you know, ended up being a part of the vernacular. So, yeah, there was no real rhyme or reason to. I still kind of call it seasons, to be fair.
- [25:27]
Rachel Yukatel
Got it. Okay. So you had seen Cycle one, and what were your thoughts going into this about the show and about Tyra and the rest of the cast, so to speak, the rest of the judges or whatever?
- [25:40]
Nigel Barker
I mean, I was like, oh, it's tv. I certainly thought some of it was a bit over the top on the first, but. But also, no one had ever seen any of this sort of stuff. And it wasn't that different than what I had experienced. You know, I'd. I'd seen how hard it could be. I knew how tough it was. When I was a young male model, I had spent nights sleeping on a park bench in Milan because I couldn't afford to pay the rent. Right. You know, I had no money and I had no way of getting back to the uk, And I was, you know, broke, and I would. And I slept like a homeless person on a park bench. I mean, that happened to me and that's. And I. And I also saw what could happen and what were the possibilities and what. You know, the good things and the bad things and the crazy stuff. And also working as a male model, you know, that that's certainly a profession where you're, you know, not the star of the show and you never were going to be.
- [26:29]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [26:29]
Nigel Barker
You know, it was always a woman's world. And, you know, the male models were very much sort of an accessory in most shoots. You know, certainly if you're working with a female as well. Yeah, one thing. If you're just working as the guy for male sort of shoots, but. But. And again, more so back then than perhaps even now. But, you know, so I guess watching it, seeing it, I found it, you know, it was entertaining. It was. I mean, everyone in the industry was secretly one or not so secretly was watching Top Model. Yeah, it was a culture. We were all gossiping about it in the background.
- [27:01]
Rachel Yukatel
Sure.
- [27:01]
Nigel Barker
So it had already got that momentum. And so when it came about and because I knew people like Nolay that happened to be working on it, that I perhaps had a slightly closer connection to it than perhaps a few other people. So I was very much aware of it and watching it. But no, I didn't. It was no real signals that it was like something you shouldn't do from any other perspective outside of the fact that it might not be good for your career because of the commercial aspect of it.
- [27:29]
Rachel Yukatel
So at the beginning when you started, what was it like? What was your experience? Were you like, after a couple cycles of this, were you like, oh my God, this is amazing. This is exactly what I signed up for. This is better. This is worse than expected. Like what happened to you and your thoughts?
- [27:43]
Nigel Barker
I mean, I think it was, it's sort of, it's not. You don't have an out of body experience where you have a complete, like, let me check this out. A lot of it's happening in real time. Yeah, I mean, I think it became. First of all, there's a lot of other things that happen. So the show became increasingly popular. Yeah, so that's something else. So the first season, although it was popular, was still a very small show on a network called UPN that doesn't even exist anymore. That was a small network and you know, it wasn't an international show or any of those things. It, the show grew and grew and grew. You know, we went from being a small show on small network to being the number one show on prime time, certainly on a Wednesday night, and had an audience of over 100 million people and we're in 160 countries worldwide. I mean it was, we went to, from, to being a phenomenon, you know, like we. It was sort of this juggernaut and everybody wanted a piece, you know, so Good, bad and ugly. Right too. Like so, so, you know, people were caught. All the biggest companies wanted to work with you one way or the other. Not necessarily the coolest fashionable companies, but people wanted to, you know, everyone. It was a very successful commercial success. So. And then the charities and the, you know, the various NGOs. I was able to work with Make a Wish foundation, the Humane Society and you know, I was traveling to Africa doing trips, you know, photographing children and with HIV and you know, things that I, I just thought that was, you know, Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt did that. I don't do that. Right. You know, but I was all of a sudden getting asked to do those things. Right. So there was a lot of things that came with it that you were like, well, this is amazing. Maybe I can help use this platform to do this or do that. And so there were, you know, and the money got better, the pay get. All the things kind of, you know, snowballed. And I just started. I had my first child, Jack, a year and a half into it. And so I was. And I had a small family to look after. And. And this was. And we started doing two seasons a year. So it started being all my time. Right. And, you know, so you were. You know, it was. And it was fun. I mean, you got to travel the world. I mean, you know, and my wife was my makeup artist, so she came with me because she started doing makeup the Chrissy. And my son would travel with me all over the world on Top Model. So I had a very unique story, you know, as far as my personal experience.
- [30:06]
Rachel Yukatel
Got it. Okay. So that was my next question because I wondered if it affected your home life, but it seems like it actually made an opportunity for your family to succeed even more.
- [30:16]
Nigel Barker
Yeah. Well, my wife appeared on Top Model multiple times as the Covergirl expert. So if you watch the show and you'll see that when they are the CoverGirl sort of spokesperson. My wife was quite often the Covergirl spokesperson. She actually went on to do her own TV show with CoverGirl called Next Stop New youw, where she travels all over the country and doing makeovers of people as the actual CoverGirl spokesperson. So that kind of happened as a sideline. On the back side of it all, my mother appeared on America's Next Top Model as when she. We went to the UK and we did the shoot for a Bollywood photo shoot. My mother came on and taught all the girls how to tie a sari and stuff like that. So for me, I was. It was like a whole family, was it. It was like a sort of family affair. And, you know, it's funny because, you know, you watched back the show and I see all the things that were happening that were negative, all of the sort of backlash pieces of it, you know, much of that. And it sounds silly because it sounds like, well, how do you not know that all this is happening? But I actually wasn't aware in real time about a lot of the things because how it was managed the show and how they did this. And it was deliberate because they. In order to keep the judges separate from the contestants, it was important that we didn't know what was happening behind the scenes, like, in their private life. It was important for them that when we saw them at judging, that all we saw was what they presented at that moment, how they were dressed in that moment, how they'd done their hair, how they spoke to us at judging, and then what the photograph they showed us was. That was all we were to know. We want to know about background, because if we somehow started to not like a contestant, because we're like, God, she's so nasty behind the scenes. This girl is a problem. Like, she's you. That. That was one which was considered to be unrealistic, because in the real world, you know, no one knows what you're doing at home. They just know how you perform in front of people at work. And so that should be the way it should be. But also, I think they were trying to protect, say, characters that. The characters and stories that were happening from the judges sort of going, well, that's a really terrible thing. That girl shouldn't be doing that. We don't want her on the show. It's more like, no, let's let that. That story be hidden behind the scenes. This girl now presents a good picture or a good this. And that's what we will see. Yeah, that's how we judged it. So things like what? You know, when Shandy. What happened to Shandy, for example, the first time I even really knew about that at all was when I watched it on tv like everyone else.
- [32:47]
Rachel Yukatel
No way.
- [32:48]
Nigel Barker
So I was like, God, that's awful. Push that. What happened to Shannon, I didn't know. And then when I saw the documentary, you're like, wow, that's. It completely wasn't told correctly or, you know, or showcase. And I think at the time when it did happen, there was inklings around the set of what had happened. So I knew a bit more about. It wasn't completely. Like, the first time I saw it was on tv, but I didn't. But I'd never. But it was just like, you know, I'd heard a rumor, and we were shut down as judges. Like, you're not allowed to speak to the girls, not allowed to ask about this. Even if you went to the bathroom during judging, someone would take you. And if you. If there was a contestant, they would know. You were never allowed to run into a contestant. You never see them. You always taken.
- [33:36]
Rachel Yukatel
And so there was no personal interaction, relationships at all. But I want to ask about the judging, but I want to know before that, what Were your relationships like, personally, like, were you hanging out outside of filming with Ms. J, with Jay, with Tyra, with Janice, or was it just on set?
- [33:57]
Nigel Barker
No, you would hang out. I mean, we wouldn't hang out, all of us. But I mean, you know, many of you have one dinner a season with tyranny normally in the abroad location. I mean, to be fair, she was very busy and running the show. It was her show. She was very much the creative, creative behind it and executive producer. And she was very hands on. I mean, I, you know, kudos to her for being so hands on. A lot of people, especially celebrities who do executive produce TV shows or what have you, they put their name on something, but they're not really executive producing. You know, she's was really executive producing.
- [34:34]
Rachel Yukatel
So she wasn't just showing up as talent and then leaving and living her life.
- [34:38]
Nigel Barker
She was in the editing room. She's editing and actually like following storylines and making, you know, putting the whole thing together, to be honest, to some extent, and coming up with the creative for the fashion shoots and the photo shoots and all the things. So, you know, and again, I don't, I don't even know fully how involved she was. I mean, one of the ways that I also kind of got through my piece of it, because I could tell there was, you know, there were certain aspects of the show where if you get too involved in the politics, it could be detrimental for you. So I'm like, look, I'm going to personally just pull back. I have my own life, my own family, let my own, you know, I don't want to be all wrapped up in the politics about who's doing what and how. And I'm going to do my own thing. So I would always sort of removed myself and perhaps that's one of the reasons why I'm the longest standing judge on America's Next Top Model outside of Tyra Banks.
- [35:24]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [35:25]
Nigel Barker
You know, on the show. So, you know, Jay Manuel was the creative director of the photo shoots and Jay Alexander was the Runway coach and they, they both did a bit of judging, but they, that wasn't their permanent role. It was mine.
- [35:38]
Rachel Yukatel
True.
- [35:38]
Nigel Barker
So I had a, I didn't have the same, you know, Jay was on every photo shoot with every photographer every week. I did two photo shoots a season at Max, you know, and maybe one challenge outside of that. I just saw them at judging and that was it, you know.
- [35:54]
Howie Mandel
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- [36:24]
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- [38:23]
Rachel Yukatel
This episode is sponsored by Oho, a brand I've recently been loving. What makes OHO great is that it's designed with wellness in mind. The ingredients are thoughtfully formulated and known for their health supporting benefits while still being low calorie and refreshing, which is something I really appreciate. It's one of those drinks that feels elevated but also light and easy. Perfect for relaxing, unwinding or just enjoying something different from the usual sugary beverages. Another thing that I love about OHO is that they're a small company and I'm always happy to support brands that are passionate about their products and their community. And it's not just the drinks. OHO also offers gummies and chocolates. There are different ways to enjoy their products depending on what you are looking for and what you're in the mood for. So if you want to try it for yourself, we have a special discount code for listeners which you can find in my link tree. Or go check out OHO and support a great small business and let me know what you think. Go to www.weareho.com that's we are o h h o.com and use code Ms. 15 for 15% off. That's M I S S 15 for 15% off what if I told you that the idea that you only get parasites when you travel to some exotic country is flat wrong? Millions of Americans carry parasites right now, often without symptoms. For example, it estimated that millions in the United States have been exposed to Toxocera, a parasitic worm, yet most never even know it. Parasites do not need a plane ticket. They can enter through tap water, sushi, undercooked foods or contaminated produce. Some strains live in all stages eggs, larvae, adults hidden in your gut, releasing toxins that sabotage your energy and digestion. That's why I'm excited about Parafi. Kim Rogers 30 day full spectrum parasite Cleanse. The kit works by clearing parasites, worms, cand and heavy metals targeting parasites in all life stages supporting gut health, detox pathways and toxin removal. It's taken orally daily for 30 days with precise dosing. I'm actually doing it myself right now. I started with the lymph cleanse, then I'm doing the parafi. Wanna dive deep? I did a full interview with Kim Rogers, the worm queen herself, where we expose all the myths, understand the facts and show how to protect your body. Listen to that episode if you haven't already. Meanwhile, go to rogershood.com, and use the code Rachel to get 10% off of your order. That's R A C H e L for 10% off. Give it a try. Maybe your body's missing link is hiding inside. Let's do this together. Again, it's rogershood.com r o g e r s H-O-O-D.com and use the code Rachel for 10% off. Yeah. And to just go back to what you were saying about Tyra for one second. Something I didn't know that I found out in the docu series was that she really created that, you know, and it was really her baby. And I was really impressed to see how she took that and built it and how it was created. And to hear you say that that really was her life and she had her hands on all parts of it. It's really good to hear because it did ring true and it was impressive. It really was. And the stress that that puts on somebody is a lot, because she does say something towards the end. It's that bosses have bosses. And I know that there was a lot of trickle down stuff, but it is interesting to hear that she. And good to hear that she took it so seriously. And to be better, at some point, it became a little toxic with certain people as it, you know, as we see and as it unfolded. I wanted to ask you about those judging scenes because you see these girls come forward and you see the lineup with you guys, right? And listen, I know Janice Dickinson well. We actually were on Celebrity Rehab together and we were roommates. So fun fact for you, but not. Not a fun three weeks for me, I'll tell you that. But in watching her, I will say Janice was very true in those scenes of exactly who she is as a person and how she represents herself. So that was not a character. So I don't know any of you guys, so I didn't know. But I did notice watching it how toxic a lot of that stuff was. And so people can say, oh, that was for the show. She was acting. That's how Janice is in real life. Whether or not people that want to admit it, I think everyone really knows it because she continues to represent herself that way. Did it come off, though, at the time as toxic? Because back then it wasn't like now where, like, you get canceled for some things that are, you know, teetering on if it's okay or not, all the way to the other side. But back then, like watching her say that people were fat, they were ugly, they were not worthy, seemed like a lot to watch that back on that docuseries how did you feel in those moments?
- [43:19]
Nigel Barker
No, no, I was at those, those moments too. Was somewhat horrified. And, and you know, I think if you even see my reactions and what I would say and how I would handle myself, you know, it was a knee jerk reaction to a lot of what she would say and do. And you, and I think you, some, you often saw that. I mean, I think what was trying to be parlayed by say even Tyra, by having us all together was that this also these people, whether they were the right, whether it was the right thing for people to hear, this was a, a mirror to some extent of what was happening in the fashion industry. So people could be that toxic or could be that critical and difficult and nasty. Sometimes in, in the fashion industry they could say things to your face like, you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too brown, you're too dark, you've got this, you've got that. I mean, I have it. It happened to me as a male model, you know, like, you can't do this. You got, and there were things you couldn't change. You can't shrink, you know what I mean? You know, height wise, you can't. There's, you know, and, and then whether it's a weight thing for women or. My wife happened to be always very slim, but she was often called way too skinny, too slim, can't, you know, you're not big enough, you can't fit the clothes, you're, you know, why are you so skinny? And it was like, well, that's just the way she is. You know, it's sort of. But when you hear these things as a young person, certainly as a sort of teenager, my wife was 18, I was 18 when I first started. Very hard to process a lot of those sorts of things and, and know how to handle it in a safe way. Right. So I guess myself naturally, coming from the industry sitting there, wasn't overly shocked by what I heard, but was determined not to be that person as well. And I was always, you know, when I came out, I tried to be constructive and to be fair, kind actually with my critiques. But they were also sometimes critiques. So they were like, look, I think you can do better or if you tried this, this could really help you advance faster. And I believe that you have that chance. And I think when you look at the whole thing, you had say, certain characters saying really wacky, strong, aggressive, tough, nasty things and other people, you know, who were saying things that were perhaps more comedic and funny and Then other people perhaps like myself that would say things that were more sort of straightfor in common sense. And you know, in many respects sometimes what I would say, well, it might be boring, but what I got sort of, I was lucky in a way in my casting because they would, they appreciated the fact that, and they would say this, Nigel, you know, you are the Matt, you're the voice of reason on this show. We like you on the show because you were the voice of reason. I would hear that from the producers all the way to the top of the network saying that when you speak, you, you know, and I was, and I wasn't trying to be the voice of reason. I was simply just, just who I am. Anyone who knows me, just I'm just kind of a straight shooter and call it the way it is. And that's how I handle myself. And I certainly didn't see the need to be overly cruel or mean. You know, I might, you know, some things that I said too probably didn't, you know, age well just simply because if you look back 20 plus years ago, you know, just saying certain things, saying plus size model is not, isn't even, you know, appropriate today. You know, sort of, you know, we would say a full figured model or something like that. But there were things that people, we just say because no one had ever really had said them before out loud. We were saying some of these things for the very first time in public out loud, you know, and that was the sort of, you know, the judging panel, the way it was pitched to everyone was that imagine if you went to a casting, you, they looked at your portfolio and you walk out the room and you don't get the job, but you don't know why you didn't get the job.
- [47:06]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Nigel Barker
What could we do to open up up all the things that were being said about those models for every job? Tell them and then let it be known so that you would fast track if and how you wanted to change and if you could change those things because you would now know why you didn't get the job. And that was the idea behind it. Whether it was well executed, practiced or in the end even true is, you know, another thing.
- [47:37]
Rachel Yukatel
Well, that makes total sense. But I will tell you, in watching this back right there were, I think three times that I found I had tears coming down my face. I don't really react a lot to reality stuff. And it really hit me to watch these girls in this elimination moment, I guess it's called. And it's just so hard to watch because these girls who were missing validation at home, missing validation in their lives in general were on a show because they wanted to be beautif and for women especially, but I'm sure men too, your beauty and your self esteem go hand in hand 100%. Right. And the people that think that they are beautiful enough in some way to even apply to be on that show, to have that little bit, you know, like no one's gonna come on the show if they don't have some self esteem to think that they're good enough. Right. But then when they're told they're not this, they're not that, they're too much, they're too little to watch that in a young girl's face was really hard for me to watch. Maybe it's cause I have a 13 year old, so now I'm a little softer thinking about what a young girl goes. Maybe it's because it triggered my own self esteem of, you know, knowing what that feeling is in a different way. But if somebody telling you you're not good enough, you're never gonna make just was really hard to watch. And I saw the girls in the interviews and I'm sure there many more that took that and it affected their self esteem forever. And that made me really sad.
- [49:02]
Nigel Barker
Yeah, no, and fair point. I mean I've got a daughter who's 17 myself, you know, and a son who's 20 years old. You know, I didn't at the time, I was a 30 year old man myself, you know, I was only a few years older than the contestants, half of them, some of the contestants are mid-20s.
- [49:16]
Rachel Yukatel
But were there any stories that you or people that remain with you today that you were like God, I wonder what happened to that person? Because that was, that could have affected their whole life.
- [49:25]
Nigel Barker
Yeah, no, I think that didn't happen. I mean you can just see on the show from several of the contestants, there are plenty of people who are upset, pissed off and angry today. That's 20 years ago. Right. So clearly did just what you said, you know. But there are also, you know, and I saw over 300 plus contestants. There are also dozens if not more hundreds of contestants that did not have that experience.
- [49:49]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. They don't know you're right.
- [49:51]
Nigel Barker
And so, and they, you know, and there's a few of them who have been a little vocal recently because of the TV show saying I actually had not that experience at all. And you know, and my career was, you know, large part because of the show. Right. So you know, it's not to say that that takes away or minimizes what happened to those people. Yeah, those contestants. Because it did, and it was real for them. And everyone has their own truth in that moment. You know, the problem is, is that, you know, and having come off a reality show myself in the first place, is that when you sign up for these things, you kind of sign up for these things, you know, and the show was not like no one had ever seen it before. The show had. Had gone on to be a massive show. Everyone witnessed what was happening, and they still lined up literally thousands of people every time there was a casting call. We did one in New York City and we had over 10,000 people, and that was a riot with how many people had lined up to try and enter the competition. So for some odd reason, despite all the things. And I think this all gets people into people's heads, so you get carried away with, oh, no, I must be doing the right thing. Because, look, you know, it's. Everyone is cheering along on the sidelines now. That doesn't justify it. But it. There's that sort of mass hysteria aspect of success that makes people think it's like the emperor's clothing. Oh, well, it must be right, you know.
- [51:11]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah, no, I hear you. And I'm. And there are, I'm sure, hundreds of amazing stories. It's, of course, me as a viewer watching this docuserie.
- [51:18]
Nigel Barker
No, I agree with you. I watched it, too and cried. So I was in it and I still cried. I literally had tears running down my face. And I thought I even called Jay up afterwards and was like, jay, I didn't even know that this was even happening to you during the show. And you and I are friends. And, you know, and I think, too, there's a lot of things like that. I mean, it was cathartic for a lot of people to watch that and go, oh, my God, you know? But I think it's also important to know that the editors of the documentary are also telling a story themselves. So they also have their own decision of which pieces to pull together, to pull the heartstrings, just like it was edited in the first place to tell a story on Top Model. You know, you can also tell other stories, stories by how you edit and how you put things together to make a point, you know, that doesn't, again, say that their point isn't more. Isn't true or not. Right. But they are brilliant storytellers. And one of the reasons why we decided to even do the documentary on Netflix was because the directors were Award winning journalistic directors who previous documentary and Top Model before Top Model was about Osama bin Laden. And actually when we met the directors, you know, they hadn't even watched Top Model. They didn't even know it. It the show. So they weren't fans. They were just. But they weren't not fans.
- [52:33]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [52:33]
Nigel Barker
They were just kind of. Which I appreciated. I was like, all right, these guys are going to do this some justice. And I think they did. I mean, I think it's fair. I think what happened and how the documentary, when I watched it, you know, I'm like, yeah, okay. That it didn't age well. It shouldn't have aged well. A lot of things that shouldn't have happened. But the fashion industry is also was like that and I'm. I'm in it. A lot of things in the fashion industry shouldn't have happened, you know, wished they didn't happen. And I'm hoping have changed too.
- [52:59]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [53:00]
Nigel Barker
There's a lot of things in life 20 years ago which were shameful, you know, very fair.
- [53:05]
Rachel Yukatel
And as a viewer and someone who didn't follow it at the beginning, I will say, you know, I heard a lot of chatter about it, but at the end, you know, I didn't. I didn't feel as terrible as I thought I would about Tyra. I sort of felt like I understood her. I felt like I did like that. But she sat there and answered questions and gave her side of the story. And whether or not she took responsibility in the way I think that people may have wanted her to, I saw that and I felt that maybe she did as much as she felt like she could. I don't know. I don't know her, but she seems like a very tough woman who believes in what she's doing and wants to move on to the next thing. And I appreciated that she was even part of it, I guess. But I did see how as an entrepreneur, you have a certain way of doing things and a certain way of being, and not everybody's gonna like you. And can you make mistakes going along? Absolutely. And hopefully, you know, she's gonna sit with that. She does say at the end something about the only way that you're gonna change is from taking criticism and from learning from it and hopefully from this experience. Whether or not she wants to admit it, she should hopefully will know what she did, what she did to people. But she also created a phenomenon that not many people get to create and be a part of.
- [54:17]
Nigel Barker
Right, I agree. I agree.
- [54:19]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [54:19]
Nigel Barker
And I think that, you know, at the end of the day, you can. I. I can't speak for her. I can't speak for Tyra's truth or why she says or did or does what she does even today. Right. So. But I, you know, I do know that and I, at least I believe that the way she approached everything was really trying to be fair and trying to. And then she did care. Maybe sometimes she over cared and she went over the top. But that being said, she. There was definitely elements of, you know, what you look at now is just really poor judgment. You know, in, in certain areas, you know, there was. And again, it's not all her. There's a whole production team, dozens, not, you know, more people who failed to. To look after these contestants. You know, at the highest levels. You know, this was a show that was being okayed and approved by the networks at every level, looking at everything. And they saw the numbers, they saw the success and they said, I want more. And that unfortunately sometimes feeds the. Feeds the beast. Access to affordable credit helps me pay my employees that I don't really need it.
- [55:31]
Howie Mandel
Inflation is killing me, but who cares? Big retailers are making record profits. That's why we support the Derby Marshall credit card bill.
- [55:40]
Nigel Barker
See, banks and credit unions help small businesses make payroll. This bill would cut the vital resources they need while increasing mega store profits. They deserve it, don't they?
- [55:51]
Rachel Yukatel
Tell Congress, stop the Durbin Marshall money grab for corporate megastores paid for by the electronic Payments Coalition. And that is a really good point. I think a lot of people wanted to point the finger just at her, especially after you guys were let go. And so I want to quickly talk about that, but before I get there, do you have a moment that you remember being part of this show that was like, that was the best thing that ever happened. That's my favorite memory.
- [56:16]
Nigel Barker
I mean, there's lots good. I had a lot of amazing times, a lot of really great, great, you know, sort of experiences. I mean, traveling the world, getting access to the Forbidden City in China. We were the first American crew to ever shoot there, ever in history.
- [56:34]
Allie Jackson
True.
- [56:36]
Rachel Yukatel
Amazing.
- [56:36]
Nigel Barker
You know, we hired a thousand Chinese soldiers and sort of dressed them in ancient Chinese outfits and had them as sort of extras in the Forbidden City and then sat in the emperor's seat and did a fashion show. Bonkers. You know, like, things that we did that were like, you scratch yourself and go, am I actually here? Is this actually happening? You know?
- [56:58]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [56:58]
Nigel Barker
Doing photo shoots in the. The Grand Coliseum in, you know, in Barcelona for, you know, which had been around for sort of 2,000 years and, you know, going to South Africa and shooting, you know, just in the most extra you can imagine. If we could imagine it and dream it, we could do it. We had budgets that were, you know, astronomical. The kind of things that you just can't do in television these days that we had that we could do. Then, you know, we would do Garden of Eden shoot, spent three days building a set and then have all the girls body painted from head to toe with 25 makeup artists and, you know, just huge budgets, you know, that. And the show just grew and grew and grew and grew. You know, we would have advanced teams that would travel for six weeks before we got to a foreign country to map out every step that we would take in advance of us arriving, including our food and our meals. We would have decoy cars for us because it was sort of the sort of level of fame that happened when we got there, that the press would follow us everywhere. We would get out one at a time with our own security to go to the. Have dinner with people radioing in that you could go to the. Eat in the restaurant and get out one at a time. We all flew on different planes and all kinds of stuff that was, like, way over the top, you know, like. But that was that moment. It was a sort of. Of the sort of pinnacle of, like, a really successful mega show, you know. And what was that like?
- [58:25]
Rachel Yukatel
You know, I can imagine that you have a lot of sense of loyalty to this show and the people in it because it did so many things for your entire family. You mentioned your mom, your wife being able to travel with you, being part of this show and how much success it brought you. But was there a moment that you thought, oh, gosh, I. This is making me feel like I'm worried that I need to get out of this. Was there a turning point for you ever?
- [58:51]
Nigel Barker
I mean, you know, to be fair, I don't think I have, like, specific loyalty to the show just because it gave me success. I think that, again, I'm a pretty pragmatic person. You know, if something is fair or fun or good or, you know, then it. Then I'm happy to say it. If it isn't, then I'm also happy to say it. And I don't think that really changes. I mean, I think that. That from my perspective, what I was going through personally, you know, was. Was very successful. The show was huge. People loved it. Everywhere you go, everyone just said how much they loved the show. Never did anyone ever sort of say, God, the show is really toxic. Well, God, this shows, you know, can't believe you're on that show. No one, no one ever, ever said that. No one wrote about it. None of the press. No one, you know, no interview at any single time did any reporter go, oh, this is bad, right? This is all 20 years down the line, right? So at that time, it did not appear to be like that. And we didn't. Don't forget, there was no social media, right? So there was no Instagram, there was no Facebook even, Right. There was no Twitter, right. When the show was on, it happened later at the end of the show. But all of this stuff that you hear in the documentary was sort of prior pre. That happened. So the girls did not have a platform to go on after the show and complain or say their story or tell their story to the world. So it would. They would become off the show and disappear into obscurity. Outside of a newspaper writing about them or an interview, the podcast didn't exist. So there was. It was none of this. It was only if a TV interview happened, right? And if the only people they really interviewed were the winners, right? Because they had won. And so. And the winners only wanted to say good things because they had just won, right? So again, you know, much of this is hindsight is 20 20, because now we have all the back and forth and all the history and stories. If we had had social media and these girls were able to have gone out and said, God, this was really toxic. I had a horrible time. I'm really depressed. This was dreadful. It probably would have been completely different and I would have gone, oh, my goodness, what is going on? But, you know, at the time, it felt almost like sort of groundbreaking, to be fair.
- [61:07]
Rachel Yukatel
Tell me about what it was like when you found out that you were fired. Did you have any inkling that that was going to happen?
- [61:12]
Nigel Barker
No, I didn't have anything. I mean, I think eventually right towards the end I did, but I say that. But as far as, like towards the end. But every season, you know, your contract is up and sometimes you'd renew for two, three seasons. So you knew it was sort of good, but they still had to pick you up. Up, right. Sign your new contract this time. My. My contract had run out and that happened probably three or four times in 18 seasons that I'd worked on the show, but it had always been picked up. And there's a. There's also a deadline and a timeline for that to happen. And I. We weren't. None of us myself, the two Js weren't let, you know, let in on what was happening until literally 6 o' clock in the evening on the very day of the that are they had to contractually pick us up or not. And they told us. Then Tyra called us, you know, one at a time. You were, you know, we weren't being picked up and it was above her sort of, you know, producers have made decisions and nothing that she could do and you know, she was upset about it, blah, blah, blah. But it was very last minute and it was, and it was also like at the same time you're like, well come on, you must have known. And, and, and for me with a young family mortgage, all of that, all the normal stuff and I was, it blocked out my schedule for the next several months because I meant to be shooting and all of a sudden with the Top Model and all of a sudden I wasn't and there was no like, oh, and here's another job. You're like, okay, well what am I going to do now? I mean for me I was able to pivot very fast and I was offered a job by NBC to host the Face with Naomi Campbell within one week of dropping off Top Level. So I had a very again, flip opportunity to work in that show to, you know, working with Naomi Campbell and this whole other thing. And so, you know, it wasn't so crazy for me. I mean it was sort of a big press moment. I mean we were on CNN when we got fired because it was sort of apparently international news. But yeah, again that's just was the irony of that show. It was such a press worthy show and so big culturally that people, you know, wanted to know.
- [63:18]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah, I know we're running out of time here, so I, I just want to say there's so much to talk to you about after the fact that is so fascinating that you've done and created and that shows how you are as a person, you know, that your entire identity was not just tied to that one show, you know, which is great and I congratulate you for all that. I do want to know. I know you've done some Press now with Ms. J with Jay. Ms. J had had some health issues as we saw on the docu series. What was it like getting back together with them and seeing that?
- [63:48]
Nigel Barker
No, great. I mean we've always been friends and we've been friends ever since and we've hung out and seen each other non stop throughout the years since Top Model. And in fact, Jay Alexander was out with me last night and I had a party in Manhattan and he was there and he's. He's in his wheelchair and he showed up and, you know, he. It's not easy for him to get around. It's not easy for him to fully communicate like he used to. And yet he's still out there supporting his friends and was there for me with, with, you know, I have a. A alcohol business called Barca Martinis and we have Espresso Martinis. I had a big party in Manhattan and he came to support me. You know, Jay Manuel has done the same over and over again and oftentimes together, and we normally see each other at Fashion Week. But, you know, since Jay's, you know, Jay Alexander's accident, it's been much harder for him to come out. So, you know, but he's. We've all just, you know, at the end of the day, we're just human beings too. And, you know, I think we've. We were always friends and, you know, we have very different worlds, very different backgrounds, very different experiences, but at the same time they were, you know, good people. And, you know, I, we were friends and I admired their creativity and, you know, and a lot of what they stood for.
- [65:00]
Rachel Yukatel
Last question. Excuse me. When was the last time you spoke to Tyra?
- [65:04]
Nigel Barker
I haven't spoken to Tyra now in a few years, and I have not spoken to her since the show. Said I have spoken to her in the past few years. I had, we had lunch with Ken Mark about a few. A few years back when I was in la and we had a, you know, it was, it was fine and we had a good time and laughed and reminisced and what have you. And it's, you know, it's water under the bridge, what happened with us. And as far as the show and the breakup and, you know, it was unpleasant and difficult at the time, but again, you know, I was like, look, perhaps I over, you know, sort of personalized it, you know, and it was clearly more business to Tyra than perhaps it felt for me at the time and the Jays and. But I moved on.
- [65:46]
Rachel Yukatel
Thank you so much for filling us in on everything that's been going on with you. Your thoughts on the show. Tell us where people can find out more about you.
- [65:53]
Nigel Barker
Well, some of the easiest ways would probably be to go to Instagram, which is at Nigel Barker, and Facebook, which is at nigelbarker Official. And, you know, I have a new company, which is Barca Martinis. So you go to my website, which is Barcamartinis.com and we are doing all kinds of different fun stuff and we're also working on new TV shows and things like that and still shooting as a fashion photographer. So we got it all going on. So yeah, it's, it's an exciting world to live in and to be and to continue to live in the fashion world. And it's certainly with the show, I think what I hope comes out of it is that there's a lot learned, a lot of mistakes that can be not made again and hopefully a lot of wounds that perhaps were inflicted on some of these contestants that can have potential of healing now. I think that that's the most important thing is where does one move on from something like this versus Dwell.
- [66:47]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah, God, it's been I really appreciate your time and I wish you the best of luck. We're going to make sure we order a case of those martinis. They look great. They your social media for that has been looking fantastic. So good luck to you in the future.
- [67:00]
Nigel Barker
Thank you. Thanks.
- [67:07]
Rachel Yukatel
Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our patreon@patreon.com misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email us@infomisunderstoodpodcastmail.com that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
- [67:38]
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- [68:35]
Howie Mandel
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