← Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
Pablo Escobar’s Cocaine Pilot: The Untold Story of TJ Dominguez (Part 2 of 3)
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- [00:00]
A
Today on Misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. So what was that first moment like, meeting Pablo Escobar?
- [00:06]
B
He controlled the traffic of the whole world. Yeah, there's nobody bigger than Pablo. So he says, how much do you charge? I said, $7,000. A few of the guys laughed at me. Kind of like, what's wrong with this guy? Because they're amateurs. I'm not. I'm that good. We got a deal. They put a thousand on the str. $5,000 times 1,000 now, making $5 million a trip. Three or four trips a month. About $20 million a month. So I needed an airport to be able to secure this landing of the cocaine. So I call the authorities. These guys are feds that are watching me. They come swarming up in this car. Get out of the car. When I pick up my champagne, I wave at him and say goodbye. I got indicted on the thing called the 848 continuous criminal enterprise. It's life to life, an automatic life sentence.
- [01:49]
A
So what was that first moment like, meeting Pablo Escobar?
- [01:54]
B
Okay. They brought me to his house and a whole bunch of people there. Pablo's really likable guy. Obviously, at that point. I don't know this, but. But he was just very down to earth. But I was there to talk business.
- [02:11]
A
What was his presence like? Like, does he feel like a big guy, a little guy?
- [02:15]
B
No, I didn't feel quiet. Quiet, you know, nice guy, very down to earth. Jeans, blue jeans, tennis, you know, loafers. Nothing extravagant. Not like you see in the movies. No Rolex, no gold chains, none of that stuff.
- [02:31]
A
Wow.
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B
You wouldn't know. It was Pablo.
- [02:32]
A
What was his house like?
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B
Huge. Huge. I think the first night they inaugurated the house, which is the guy that introduced me to Pablo. I think 500 guests slept in the house. You know, a stadium first for soccer at his house. Yeah.
- [02:50]
A
Wow.
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B
Yeah. Giant. Had to zoo around the whole thing and everything. Animals, hippos, crazy stuff. I mean, you thought I had mountain lions. Do you think this guy took it to another level?
- [02:59]
A
Oh, my gosh. So he didn't need the Rolex. He put it all into the house.
- [03:03]
B
I think Pablo is, I think, the second, third, fourth richest man in the world back in the 80s. Okay. It was in the billions and billions and billions of dollars. He controlled the cocaine traffic of the whole world. Yeah, there was nobody bigger than Pablo.
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A
So what did he say to you?
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B
Well, he asked me, he said, diane, to say you're a transporter. And they're always looking for transporters, people that actually could Fly the airplane without. With an airplane. There's a lot of guys in the industry that don't need an airplane to fly. They're amateurs. They abuse drugs, you know, before they get into anything. They're higher than a kite, you know, and we were really professionals, you know what we did. So he said, I understand that, you know, you got a transport route, they call it. So I said, yep. Meanwhile, I've been doing it for Luis. So he says, how much do you charge? So I said, $7,000. Well, that was a joke. I mean, I didn't know that that was a joke. You got to remember, I don't really know what the skills. I'm being paid a million dollars a trip. That's all I know. I'm not charging whether you put one kilo or 20 or whatever, not my business. I'm getting paid a million flat fee. But now he's actually charging, asking me how much I would charge per kilo for transportation. I started in the cocaine business as a transporter. I'm not in the business. I don't sell cocaine. I'm not dealing in cocaine. I consider myself like ups. I apply for you door to door.
- [04:37]
A
Service, you know, you don't ask what's in the boxes.
- [04:39]
B
I don't care if it's cabbage, right? I just want to know that I'm getting paid in US currency. That's all I really want to know.
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A
So how'd you figure out the math?
- [04:49]
B
Well, I'd ask around and people had given me different amounts of money that people were charging for route. You know, I didn't really know because it's not like something that I could, you know, ask Google, like today, how much you charge for transporting cocaine.
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A
Can't put it in check.
- [05:04]
B
So, yeah, so I don't. I don't have any sources to go like that. And when I'm done, just transportation of cocaine with Luis, I go hang out and wait for next Friday, right? So I said, $7,000. A few of the guys laughed at me, kind of like, what's wrong with this guy? You're totally off the scales. You know, it's not even realistic. So they smirked at me like I was some sort of like, you know, wrong or high on drugs or something. And one guy says to me, he says, we pay 25 to 35 a kilo. So he says, you're way off the scale. You're not even close. So I said, you know why you pay 25 to 35? Because you got to go hunt these guys down and shoot Them because they're amateurs. I'm not. I'm that good. So he goes, you have $7,000 is ridiculous. I said, I'm going to tell you one more time. I said, these guys, their airplanes is held together with bubble gum. And I says, and they're flying around with a rosary in one hand and a Bible in the other. I don't need any of that, and I don't want to take any shots at God or anything like that. I'm a strong believer of faith, but I came across like I know what I'm doing and what I'm capable of doing with the tools that, let's say God gave me, right? I don't need all of this extra stu.
- [06:19]
A
And you're really feeling it, right?
- [06:21]
B
I'm believing, yeah.
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A
Okay, so you're not shaking in your boots like, oh, my God, I'm going to fake it till I make it. You really believed it?
- [06:27]
B
No, I not. I know that I believed it, but I needed him to believe it.
- [06:31]
A
Right? Right.
- [06:32]
B
I'm not the problem. The problem is $7,000 that these guys don't want to pay me, right? But the way I looked at it, they asked me to come here, right? So, yeah, I'm going to give myself a tremendous amount of value, right? So I used a little bit of logic. I said, look, man, it's really simple. He said, we can't pay that amount of money. So I said, well, look at it this way. I said, cocaine here at your level is less than $1,000 a kilo, right? $500 a kilo. I said, I've got an airplane, it's $2 million. I've got a boat that I'm going to use, which is a million dollars. I said, and it's going to cost me four or five hundred thousand to land the airplane. I said, I'm gonna have three and a half million dollars into the operation. I said, and I'm not coming to Colombia to risk less than what I have already invested. And that's not taking into consideration my ass that's on the seat and my freedom, right? So, you know, I said. So he said, well, why don't you come down a little bit and we'll come up a little bit? So I said, all right, how about we do $5,000 a kilo? I said, you put 700 kilos on the Strip, that's $3.5 million. My profit margin begins on the 701 kilo, because the 700 kilos is going to cover my investment, okay? So the Other guy looks at me and he goes, you got an airplane? And I was wearing a hat that had a sword. My name of the company. I based everything around King Arthur, the Knights of the Round Table. Round Table. And there was no head of anything, even though I was the head. But so. And the sword of King Arthur was Excalibur. So I had a hat that had an embroidered sword and said, excalibur. Well, Gigi had on both engines a sword, you know, that was painted on there. So the one guy walks up to me and he says, you got an airplane that's got a sword like this one on the engines? And I said, yeah, that's Gigi the Great Goats. That's my girl. And then he turns around, he says, pablo, give him whatever he wants. This guy's gold guy doesn't miss. I got a little straighter. You know my stock value. So I said, Put 700 kilos on this trip. I said, if you put 650, I'm going to charge you for 700. Let's be clear on this. And the gentleman over here that brought me to you, which is now, he wants a commission. I don't want that responsibility. You pay his commission. I don't want to have to worry about him in Miami, about owing him any money. So it'll be 5,000 a kilo. His commission comes out of your end. And if you put under 700, I'm going to charge you for a base of 700. That's $3.5 million.
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A
Okay, so again, for people listening that don't know anything about this, you're getting 5,000 a kilo. And the average person in the business was getting What, a kilo?
- [09:33]
B
3500.
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A
Got it? Okay, so this is right. So how much are you now making a week? Because we know you were making a million a week before in the marijuana.
- [09:43]
B
Business, at 700, it's 3.5. I told them my profit becomes after the 700. I said, so put more than 700. So they asked me, how much can you carry? I said, hell, put a thousand on there. Can you put 1,000? And he said, yeah, we can put a thousand on there. I said, okay, let's make it rounded off at a thousand. And he says, how quick can you go. I says, how quick can you get me through some radios? So they have radios there, ham radio set up. And I always had a guy in Miami, he was paid only to monitor radios. He didn't go outside. He didn't go to the movies. He was paid to listen to radio my frequency. And I called him Q. So he said Q, after the James Bond guy. So he said, give me to the radio. So I went to the radios and I called Q. And at that point, in the United States, I'm known as Stingray. And then in Colombia, they called me Cyclone, which means cyclone. They couldn't say the American word stingray, so they called me Cyclone. So I get on the radios and I say, hey, listen, get Kingfish and get Gigi ready for dinner. I'm on my way back. We got a deal. So I fly back to Miami, they put 1,000 on the Strip. $5,000 times 1,000 now, making $5 million a trip.
- [11:05]
A
Wow.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And how many trips are we talking? A week? A month? How does that work?
- [11:09]
B
Week, one week, Sometimes a little more. I would do maybe three or four trips a month, which is, in those days, money, about $20 million a month. And today's money would be. I mean, I don't know, I'm not a banker, but they. Some people have said, you know, anywhere from. It could be anywhere from 80 to 100 million a month.
- [11:29]
A
So how much of that were you pocketing? With some going back in the business to your employees. How did that work?
- [11:34]
B
That's really a great question, because I have now expenses, you know, I'm going to have to pay, take care of my guys. Now I have to do the whole route. I gotta bring in the cocaine from the jungle to the doorsteps of the Colombians in Miami. And I'm not throwing this cocaine in the water like I did before and put this stuff in the wrong boat, Right? I do that, I'm dead. Because I don't have $50 million to pay Pablo for a loss that I can't explain. So I needed an airport to be able to secure the. This landing of the cocaine, right? So, and that's a story in itself because I went to see my. The guy that I was buying marijuana from. He was a custom guy. So I. Yeah, so I say, listen, man, I need a hookup in the airport. I need. If you could bring me to one of the guys. He goes, yeah, we can go to such and such a location. I know the director of the airport there. I'll introduce you. So I said, okay, fine, let's go set this thing up. So I go there and he says to me, every afternoon, or three, four, whatever, after work, he goes to a little tiki bar in the Bahamas. So. And this is the custom head of the airport?
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A
Yeah.
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B
So I said, okay, fine, let's Go. So we're by the tiki bar, swimming pool. And then he goes, look, that's him coming up. So I said, okay, go talk to him. Tell him that, you know, I'll give him 500,000, half a million dollars for a trip. So he goes, no, you go talk to him. So I said, what do you mean me go talk to him? Not a God darn uniform, civilian. Don't rest my ass, you know. Sure, the guy, yeah.
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A
Like, how do you test the waters on that conversation without knowing that he's going to turn?
- [13:16]
B
Well, that's why I got hunted, my buddy here, and I wanted him to do the talking. Well, he. I'm having an absolute, right? Two absolutes later, three absolutes later, he's telling me, no, you can handle this. I said, no, I can't handle it, all right? I want to handle this. So the guy goes, and he sits in a tiki bar, kind of like this, right? A long horseshoe type of bar. There's nobody there at that point. It was 3 o' clock in the afternoon and nobody else is sitting in the bar. And I walk up to the bar and I'm only two stools away or three stools away from this guy. And I walk up to the. And I kind of clear my throat to make a little noise to see if I can get this guy to turn around, look at me. And so I go, the guy doesn't even look at me. Guy's really obnoxious, right? So bartender comes over, what do you want? I said, give me an absolute, you know, So I take another absolute. And then now two absolutes later, this guy's still not looking at me. So I decided, well, I'm going to have to just, you know, do something here. So I push my stool back, I walk over to the guy and I say to the guy, so listen, I have a mutual friend that said that I could talk to you about something sensitive. And he said, what's your friend's name? I said, frankie. And he says, frankie. Frankie what? I said, Frankie. He goes, frankie what? I said, I got a picture of him, maybe you could recognize him. So I get a little closer to him. Now I reach in my back pocket where I had about $20,000 in hundreds. So it's Franken Benjamin Franklin, right?
- [14:50]
A
I got it, yeah.
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B
So I grab a bunch of this and I start putting it in front of him and me, and I'm putting 100 on top of another hundred on top of another hundred, maybe $10,000 into this stack. And the guy goes okay, stop, man. What is it that you want to talk about that's sensitive? So I say, I want to talk about making you rich. He said, making me rich? I said, yeah, making you rich. And I take a little stack and I push it in front of him. And he says, what do I have to do for this making me rich, man? And I said to him, nothing. He said, what do you mean nothing? I said, I want you to do nothing. He said, how are you going to make me rich? And I do nothing. I said, I want you to know not a God darn thing when I land my airplane full of cocaine in your airport, I want you to do nothing. Go get a cup of coffee. And he says, how much is this pay? Half a million dollars. 250 up front, 250 when I leave. He goes, how many times a month can you do this, man?
- [15:53]
A
So he was your guy that was.
- [15:55]
B
It's secured an airplane.
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A
How long?
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B
I mean, airport.
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A
Yeah. How long did this last for that? You're going back and forth and you're working with Papa.
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B
It lasted for quite a while except he started getting really greedy on me. It went from 500,000 to 600 to 650 to 750 to the last thing he said to me, I want a million dollars for every time you land the airplane. I'm going to arrest your guys. And I started getting really stupid greedy. And so at that point, I was always scouting different locations. And it had come to my attention that there was basically like a little broken down bungalow hotel that was up for sale. Another buddy of mine had owned. It was called Hawk's Nest. Today it's driving, by the way, and it's in Cat island, further away. But it's okay. I got an airplane boat, right? So I buy the Neemah airport, I mean the hotel, for one purpose only. It had a strip and it had a marina. Now I got a place for my speedboats and I got my own strip. And guess what? I don't have to pay anybody for anything anymore. And it's like a friend of mine used to say, less dogs, less fleas. I don't have to tell anybody what.
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A
I'm doing right now. Were you nervous that this guy would come back and bite you in the ass for.
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B
He actually did come back and bite me in the ass.
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A
Okay. What happened to him?
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B
He arrested my guys. We're not doing anything at all. I had Jack calling me up out of the Bahamas. Hey, T, you need to get your ass over here right away. I said, well, what's going on? He goes, I'm in jail. I said, why are you in jail? He said, they got me locked up over here. You need to come over here now. So I fly over there and I said, why is my guy locked up? And he says, because I understand you've been working the outer islands. So I said, I'm not breaking the law here, man. Why am I? Why is my guy locked up? He says, you gotta start spreading the money around. It was really a joke because now you're arresting my guy for not even breaking the law?
- [17:48]
A
Yeah.
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B
So you're telling me, because I'm not breaking the law here, you're going to harass me. And I need that location because I've got a couple of houses in the Bahamas now that I use as backup houses in the event that I can't bring in. I'm not losing cocaine, right? So in the event that something happens, I'm driving the speedboats back. I always go with another boat full of fuel. So I'll bring the other speedboats back and we'll try it in another. Another moment.
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A
So how do you get this guy to shut up or get off your back?
- [18:17]
B
How do I do what now?
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A
How do you get this guy to get off your back? I mean, do you have to pay him more or you gotta kill him?
- [18:22]
B
No, what I did was I called some other smuggler buddies of mine that were at me. You know, they're not really ranked high and didn't really have the connections that I had. So I say, guys, I'm gonna for free, I'm gonna turn you on to an airport.
- [18:35]
A
Got it?
- [18:35]
B
You know, so now I'm giving that guy work, and he thinks it's coming through me, which in reality it is coming through through me, but I got nothing to do with it. So now he's happy. I'm telling him that I'm giving him work, but I'm doing my own thing over there, and nobody now knows what I'm doing.
- [18:49]
A
So now let's go back to Pablo for a minute. So how long were you working for him and was it exclusive to work with Pablo?
- [18:56]
B
Pablo, yeah, it was exclusive. And it wasn't because it wasn't like I signed a contract. I'm exclusively working for you. But he was giving me more work than what I could handle, you know, and then another thing that I did, being a pro that I like to consider myself, I realized at one point that I was working my Gigi so much she needed to go down for, you know, getting the props tuned different maintenance on the airplane. So I couldn't go, let's say, this week. So when that happened to me one time before it actually happened, I started already thinking that I need to do a copy of Gigi. So I got three copies.
- [19:34]
A
Wow.
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B
I had one in the hangar, one being worked on, one flying. So I had no downtime, right? So now, when Pablo wanted me to go, I would go again. Now, they did come a problem with Pablo, because I'm doing these trips for $5 million. And then the first time that I do the one trip, I bring 500 kilos to Pablo, they gave me the boat, the cars, which, by the way, when they gave me the cars, they were amateurs. The bumper was dragging on the ground because, you know, you got 200 or 300 pounds in a brand new car. And you know when you have that in the trunk, the tailgate's gonna go down. And me trying to think ahead. I'm sitting there thinking, well, if anybody sees a new car with the bumper almost on the ground, there's something heavy in that trunk. It's thinking like a policeman. I'm thinking, well, maybe I should find out what's in that trunk, right? So having said that, I decided, let me take these cars, because I didn't think the first time that I loaded these things were they were gonna make it to their destination. So I went ahead and I took the cars and I took them to my car shop, and I put air shocks in there, and I put a little level inside the glove compartment. So now what I would do is I would load the cars with a certain weight. At that point, I turn on a compressor and the rear bumper would go up and the car would sit level.
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A
Got it?
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B
So now I give them out of the thousand kilos, I give them 200. I mean, 500 kilos. So the guy says to me, you guys are light. You know, where's the other 500 kilos? And I said, where's the rest of my money? I said, that dog bit me once before, and that dog's not biting me twice. As soon as I get paid my 5 million, you get the balance of the money. So. Okay, fair enough. So now I'm having to wait. No, Pablo wants you to go again. I said, you still owe me from the other two and a half million. So now. Okay, fine, they talked me into going again. Now the math is starting to get a little confusing. And I don't have an accounting department, right? So I got three, four trips. You owe me for this. You owe me for that. Get that Amex Gold Card ready. I'm way too tired to cook tonight.
- [21:43]
A
You read my mind. With the Gold Card, we can get up to $120 a year in statement credits. Are you feeling the Cheesecake Factory?
- [21:51]
B
Five guys.
- [21:52]
A
Either of those sound good? Yes. Which one? Both pay with the Gold Card to receive up to $10 a month in statement credits at participating Partners. Uncover more ways to reward yourself@americanexpress.com explored-gold enrollment required terms apply today. This episode is sponsored by Balance of Nature. If you've ever flipped over a supplement label and thought, what am I even putting in my body? I hear you. That's why I'm such a fan of Balance of Nature. What makes these supplements stand out is simple. I can actually recognize what's inside the fruits and veggies. Supplements are made with real whole ingredients, like celery, spinach, cauliflower, shiitake mushrooms, blueberries, and mango and their fiber and spice blend. It includes whole apple, cinnamon, flaxseed, and turmeric, ingredients you've probably already used in your own kitchen. I love knowing that what I'm taking is made from actual fruits, vegetables, spices, and fibers, not a bunch of stuff I can't pronounce. It's clean, convenient, and easy to add into your routine, whether that's swallowing the capsules, opening them into your smoothie, or sprinkling them on your food. And here's the best part. Right now, my listeners get an exclusive deal, use code understood for 35% off, plus get a free bottle of fiber and spice. Just head to balanceofnature.com, use code understood, and get started with something you can actually feel good about. That's balanceofnature.com, use code understood. And was this right at the beginning, or is this. You already had a relationship with him and kind of knew that the money at the beginning. Okay, so you didn't know whether you can trust him or not.
- [23:27]
B
Well, my philosophy at that point, Rachel, there's no credit here.
- [23:31]
A
Right.
- [23:31]
B
I learned that from that Bahamian guy a long time ago. That's why people get killed in this business. And cocaine, it's not like marijuana. It's a lot less unforgiving. Right. You know, your show is misunderstood. You don't want to be misunderstood. When you owe cocaine, you either have the money or you have the cocaine. But there's no ifs and buts in there. So at that point, I wanted to keep everything very, very clear, you know? So, no, I'm not going back. So at that point, Pablo comes back with a counteroffer to me. What's the counteroffer? He wants me to start getting paid my 5 million in product.
- [24:07]
A
Hmm.
- [24:07]
B
So now I'm gonna collect $5 million in cocaine. Well, I'm not looking for that at all.
- [24:13]
A
Right.
- [24:13]
B
Because now he's gonna put me in the cocaine business.
- [24:15]
A
Right.
- [24:16]
B
And I don't wanna be in the cocaine. I'm in the transportation business, not cocaine business. And then the other factor that I have to deal with, I'm the guy giving the value to the cocaine. Cocaine in the States is going anywhere. Depending on where you were at and the level of food chain, it was going anywhere from, let's say, 20 grand to like 25, 27,000 wholesale in large quantities. Right? So, so I know that I'm not going to take it at that because I'm the guy giving that value. But in Colombia, the cocaine is at a thousand, so I know they're not going to want to give it to me at 1000 because I would own the whole trip.
- [24:51]
A
Right? Right.
- [24:52]
B
So I said we have to settle somewhere in the middle there, a happy medium. So we agreed basically that I would end up owning 35%. So on 1,000 kilos, 350 kilos on mine.
- [25:05]
A
Got it. And wait, so let me understand this. As Pablo's asking you to ship cocaine out, does he have the guy you're giving it to or that's on you to sell? How does that even work? Like who?
- [25:19]
B
The selling part?
- [25:20]
A
Yeah, the selling part.
- [25:21]
B
Well, they have their network, which I now know everything about their network. All the houses, they have families here that are not in the business. They just house sit, you know, real family. They go to church on Sundays and they're house sitters. And this is a safe house where they would store cocaine. Now, I needed to set up that I had ports of entries, which we call windows, which is the stuff that I use coming into the United States.
- [25:46]
A
Right.
- [25:46]
B
And the cocaine would sit there just for one night and wait for the following day for me to transport that cocaine. I'm not transporting cocaine at nighttime. Right. I'm gonna go nine to five. When the rush hour traffic, that's the time with a crash car in the back in case we have pulled over, you know. So now I have that. So I, I now have to set that whole network up, which is.
- [26:07]
A
This is becoming a huge production, a huge business.
- [26:11]
B
Yeah, I gotta. I like a funny story that I'd like to share with you because now I'm not slowing down because I'm getting paid. I'm just getting paid cocaine. So there's no reason for me to slow down now. The problem that I have is what do I do with all this damn cocaine? It was kind of funny, too, because does cocaine have an expiration date? I don't know this stuff, right? I don't know how to store it.
- [26:33]
A
I've got to put it on ice. Like, what do you do with it?
- [26:36]
B
Exactly.
- [26:36]
A
Yeah.
- [26:36]
B
And I can't advertise on the paper. What do I get? A buyer? And I've got to be very careful because there's a lot of factors that come into play. It's not just getting arrested, getting ripped off, like that movie from Scarface type stuff. They'll rip you off. They'll shoot you really quick for like, $25 million, you know, your life ain't that important. So now I've got issues, where to go. So I get myself a safe house. This safe house. Only two people other than me knew this safe house, right? So I got this guy. Yellow is a Spanish term for cocaine, who is a real Scarface. Guy was from Mario Botel. If he had no family, I basically adopted him, even though he was older than me. But I brought him in and cleaned him up, dressed him up. I said, okay, your job is gonna be not a problem. You go take care of that problem, you know? And so Yayo says, I got a buyer in New Jersey that's interested. And I'm selling quantities, okay? 2, 300 kilos at a time, minimum, right? Well, you gotta remember now, I'm still doing trips for Pablo. So now I'm accumulating. I had 3,000, 4,000 kilos in the house. You know, I've been mass accumulation because I don't have an outlet for it. So Yale says to me, I got a buyer. So I said, okay, now, by the way, when I take your car to pick up the cocaine, you don't know where this safe house is at. I take your car, I give it to my guy, Q. Q. We sweep the car, we make sure that there's no transponder in that car, no bugs. I don't know if you've got issues. So after we're sure that the car is clean, then I drive that car to my safe house. Once I had the car in my safe house, then we're going to go ahead and load it and then bring it back to you. We have the car, and we're sorting out a trip that I just finished for Pablo, which is the ,thousand plus my 350 and my 350 that I've been accumulating, where Yale says to me, we had a problem. And he's like really, really serious. And I said. He says, we're surrounded. I said, what do you mean we're surrounded? He goes, the cops are out there, man. The feds are in the, the front yard. So I said, are you kidding me? Don't joke around with that kind of stuff. He said, they're out then I'm not going back to prison. He came from prison. So he grabs an Uzi and he says, they're going to have to kill me. So I said, put the damn gun down. I said, let me see. So I jump out. It was a big mansion type home with a balcony in the front with glass doors, French doors. I go up and I look out the window and I say, yeah, sure enough, the feds are out there with the blue jacket, the yellow writing in the back. Crown Victoria cars, they got shotguns and they're in the front of the house. Five, six, whatever, cars, right? So I say, oh, shit, you know? So I run back down to where these guys are accounting the cocaine and sorting it out. I said, all right, we got a problem. And the problem starts here. I know I'm not the problem. I don't think it's you, Flash. That was my ex brother in law. I said, it's gotta be you, Yayo. You're the weak point here. And it's not you, it's your guy, the guy from New Jersey. Okay, this is a problem. And I'm holding you. It's not my. So we start arguing among each other, right? Yeah. He goes, I'm not going to jail. They're going to have to shoot me. They're going to have to kill me. I'm not going to jail in the United States. So now we're arguing amongst each other. I said, okay, calm down. So I go to the backyard, I go to the sides of the house to see if they're actually surrounding us. Well, they're still only in the place first. Front of the house right now. I don't know what the hell's going on. So I said, I can't take this anymore, man. So I'm gonna go out there. So I. The house had a wind wall and the, the door opening for the garage was to the side of the house. It wasn't to the front.
- [30:17]
A
Wait, timeout. And you don't have like a secret area that you could stash all the drugs in if they come in? I Don't know. I'm making this up.
- [30:24]
B
I got thousands of kilos of.
- [30:25]
A
Okay, so you can't hide it.
- [30:26]
B
You can't.
- [30:27]
A
Okay, sorry. Go on.
- [30:30]
B
Good question. But no.
- [30:32]
A
Okay, yeah, yeah. So what happens? You go out there.
- [30:36]
B
Wow, it's really amazing because, I mean, here we are, we're getting ready to shoot each other.
- [30:39]
A
What. What state are we in? We're in Florida. Florida, okay. In Miami?
- [30:43]
B
Yeah, Miami. North Miami. Yeah. Okay, so you're going to go out there. I said, what the hell's the difference, man, whether we get arrested inside here or out there? I said, I can't take the. I can't take the tension any longer. Okay? So I'm going out there. You guys stay put. So I open up the garage door and I grab a broom and I just start sweeping the pavers, like, nonchalantly. Like, I want to blend in with the trees, I guess, and become invisible. Right. I'm not looking that way, and I'm just pushing the broom. And I get this yelling that's, hey, you over there. So I turn around and I look at the authorities, all these guys in the middle of the street. So I put my hand on my chest and I said, who, me? He goes, yeah, you, get back in the house. And I said, what do you mean, get back in the house? He said, get back in the house. We get an armed fugitive across the street from you.
- [31:32]
A
Wow.
- [31:33]
B
Yes, sir. I close that garage door, I get goosebumps. I came in, I said, we're not counting anymore cocaine. We're drinking beer.
- [31:41]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [31:43]
B
He said, they're not here for us. They're here for across the street.
- [31:47]
A
Wow.
- [31:48]
B
You can't make the stuff up. It's.
- [31:49]
A
That's amazing. Okay, so let's round this out. So how many years were you working for Pablo?
- [31:55]
B
Until they popped me.
- [31:57]
A
Okay, so are we talking five years? Is it a total?
- [31:59]
B
At least five years.
- [32:00]
A
Okay, five years. And just summarize briefly your relationship with him during this time. It got stronger. You got more intimate.
- [32:07]
B
It got stronger.
- [32:09]
A
Knew him well.
- [32:10]
B
Pardon me?
- [32:10]
A
You knew him well?
- [32:11]
B
Knew him well enough to have been in a couple of parties that he was attending. Flew in with a helicopter. Was there one time when he crashed actually in a helicopter. And he was really family oriented. I know you could, you know. How do you figure that? You know, he had very strong faith in family and friendship. Pablo was not the ruthless killer that people actually make him out to be. Pablo would quicker give you a second chance if you lost a trip. There was a Lot of other guys out there that were really, really ruthless. They just as soon shoot you as it was saying hello to you. Like that guy in La Guajira. You know, if you lost with Pablo, you could explain it and he would believe you. He'd give you a second shot at, you know, making the money. Good. Now, did he kill a lot of people? Thousands, maybe hundreds or thousands? Yeah. And I don't want to say that some of these people needed killing. But you know what though, Rachel? There's a lot more honesty in that business that we were in than in some of the business transactions that I've said here with a bunch of lawyers, which are just two faced hypocrites. We're there, you weed out all the garbage, they get shot. So it remains, you know, you want to be true to your word, right? So.
- [33:27]
A
So when you got found out by the feds, had he already been arrested? Like, where are we in history with how this all went down?
- [33:36]
B
How I went down? I get done in by the guy taught me how to fly.
- [33:41]
A
Jack, Jack. Our boy Jack.
- [33:43]
B
Our boy Jack.
- [33:44]
A
Well, at this point though, was Pablo still doing his thing or had he been arrested?
- [33:48]
B
Pablo never slowed down doing his thing. Okay, Pablo is alive. When I went down, Pablo sent me a guide to prison, because I know all the safe houses, I know all the information. The Pablo operation in Miami, don't forget, I'm the guy that's put the air shocks in the cars. I know tag numbers, I know people's reps name. So I know all of that. And then Pablo wanted to be sure of what I was going to do, right? If I was going to cooperate and give them all up, or what I was going to do. So they sent me a private detective and a lawyer who got the private detective in and, you know, and I asked some key questions so I was sure at that point that this came from Pablo. And they wanted to know what my intentions were, who my lawyers were, and they wanted to basically get a complete picture of what my intentions were.
- [34:39]
A
Did he want to help you? Did he want or he just wanted to make sure you were going to be quiet?
- [34:43]
B
Well, look, here's what I said. I was telling anybody and everybody whatever they wanted to hear. Okay.
- [34:50]
A
Okay.
- [34:51]
B
And my bond hearing, I don't know if you know anything about bond hearing, but bond hearing is usually maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes at the most. My bond hearing moments went three days.
- [35:02]
A
Wow.
- [35:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah, I put, I put agents on the stands and it was like one of my lawyers said, I've had Many trials that are. That are less time than your bond hearing at that point. I could talk for a couple of hours just on that bond hearing. It was three days. Yeah, my bond hearing.
- [35:16]
A
Oh, wait, let's spool back for one second. How did you actually get caught? Where were you? Did you know that they were coming? That they were on to you?
- [35:22]
B
I had a copy of my indictment probably week to two weeks before he came out.
- [35:28]
A
Okay, so you knew. You knew that they were okay. And what did Jack do? He gave out.
- [35:33]
B
What? I fired Jack because Jack developed a really bad cocaine habit. So, you know, I'm sitting here early in the morning. The temperatures are maybe 65 degrees. And you're bleeding from the nose. Your mouth is full of, like, cotton. You're sweating. So I told Jack, jack, you're out of control. I said, I'm gonna put you in a rehab, buddy. And he goes, you're gonna do what? I said, I'm gonna put you in a rehab. I'm not asking you to stop doing drugs. I'm just gonna tell you to slow down. His name was Kingfish. When we first started, I changed his name to Hoover after the vacuum cleaner, because he could take an ounce of cocaine and disappear this thing. He started going through a kilo of cocaine a week, not obviously on his own. He'd go to strip bars or strip joints, whatever you want. I don't visit those places. I don't like them. I just don't like them. I don't like the way what they do to a woman. And I grew up with sisters. So he'd go there and he'd bring 10 strippers home with him.
- [36:32]
A
Wow.
- [36:33]
B
And he'd throw this stuff in the bed and breathe, you know, he was like Scarface, that thing. Cameras, four or five cameras, filming himself. And then that I got. That got totally out of control. And then the party level became so high that I didn't want him around me.
- [36:47]
A
So he ends up getting caught on his own. On his own and then do with me and then what? Decides to give you up to help himself?
- [36:54]
B
Yeah.
- [36:55]
A
Okay. Is there a moment where, like, the feds bust in and come and get you? Or was it more calm than that?
- [37:01]
B
2 and a half years they followed me, okay. They went to Europe with me. I could tell you some funny stories about what I did to them.
- [37:09]
A
So you knew they were on to you for a while.
- [37:11]
B
Listen, here's a funny story. I come home, right? They follow me with a helicopter. As a matter of fact, in one of the cocaine air podcasts that I did. One of the arresting agents has become a very good friend of mine today.
- [37:24]
A
I like that.
- [37:24]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And he actually was on the Cocaine Air podcast talking about he's the guy that did the surveillance on me, on my house.
- [37:31]
A
Wow.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah. So. And it's funny because I drive. These guys are following.
- [37:37]
A
Well, they get invested in you. They know you pretty well at that point, I guess. So it's interesting to hear that he stayed in your life. That's pretty cool.
- [37:44]
B
Yeah, well, he. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I got done by a whole bunch of agencies, right? But this, they, you know, I drive very fast. I got tickets for 169mph back in those crazy days. And so they follow me with a helicopter. He talked about it on the air cocaine thing. And I'm driving home one night, and she's just fed up with this pressure, you know, I go to dinner. They're at dinner with me. They're five tables away. You know, matter of fact, one incident. I said, take this bottle of Dom Perignon over to them, tell them that this is not called a cap, it's a cork. Because these guys are usually drinking Boone's Pharma and whatever cheap ass wine. So they send the bottle over there and they obviously refuse it. They bring me the bottle back. I take the bottle of Dom Perignon, I flip it upside down on my champagne holder over here. It was just that crazy. And so I'm coming home one time. They're parked two houses away from my home, surveilling my home. Now, before I go into my house, it had a round driveway, circle in the front, plus I had another side driveway to go into the garage. I pull up on the. On the circle. And I was driving a black Ferrari at the time, a BB512. And I get out of the car and I've got the cell phone. Most people didn't even know what a cell phone was back in those days. And I get out of the car and I see them there. I wave at them and I tell them five minutes with my hand. I go like this. They're looking at me, I'm looking at them. We're not talking sign language, right? So I go like this, five minutes. So I go inside my home, and I walk out with a glass, a flute. And I walk out with a bottle of champagne, right? I take the champagne, the glass, I put it on the deck of the Ferrari, and I uncork it, right? I pour. And I'm making all these motions very visible to them, very slow. So I pour the champagne into the flute. I hold it up, I take a sample. I go like this. Give him a thumbs up, and then I take another sip. I put the glass back down on top of the deck of the Ferrari rear, and I say to him, I take my watch, I point at my watch and I say, give me five minutes. I pick up my cell phone and I go, hello, 911, what is your emergency? I said, well, ma', am, I don't really know if I'm calling the right place. I said, but I live in a very nice neighborhood, quiet neighborhood. I was walking my dog, and as I'm walking my dog, I went past this car that does not belong in this neighborhood. All right? I said, well, I kind of leaned in and I noticed these guys have all kinds of shiny objects in the back of the car. They got, like, all kinds of weapons. It looked like some sort of machine guns. I don't know, rocket launchers. Am I talking to the right agency or the right place? Yes, sir. Where are you at? It's a cell phone. So they don't know my location back in those days. And I said, so, ma', am, I walked by the second time, walking my dog back. I leaned in a little bit more. These guys really look dangerous. What do I do? Give me an address and go back in your house and secure yourself. Yes, ma'. Am. Hang up the phone. I tell them, five minutes. So now I'm leaning back. I know one thing. These agencies, they think of policemen, like, worthless. They don't cross each other's information. So I call the authorities. These guys are feds that are watching me. Next thing I know, five, 10 minutes later, they come swarming up in this car, get out of the car with guns on their hand drawn, right? The guy goes like this. When he raises his hand, the cop hits the hand down. They see that they actually have guns. A lot of these DEA guys, they have ankle gun holsters. And then the one in the back, two guns. So when they see this, the guy tries to reach for the wallet. They kick the guy. Now the guys are on the ground, and they're surrounded by guns. I'm drinking my champagne, watching this whole show, and they're pointing at me. And then they're. We're da. Screaming going on, and they're now all looking at me. And when the guy tried to reach into his pocket, he sees the gun. He gets more nervous. It's the adrenaline thing. Nobody's reasoning. They see guns. They're worried for their own life. He kicks the Guy's hand, Guy reaches into his pocket, pulls out the wallet. Now they see they're actually government feds, right? So now about this time, I pick up my glass, my champagne, I wave at him, I say goodbye, and I go back inside the house. So they nicknamed me Maryland Mad Dog.
- [42:25]
A
Got it? Got it. It was amazing. Great story. So let's go back to your bond hearing for a second. Did they let you out on bail on bond, however that works?
- [42:35]
B
No, the judge said unlimited funds, worldwide contacts. No amount of money this Gentleman cannot meet $10 million bond would be like drinking a cup of coffee. And he's facing life without parole. So based on that, these same lovely people that are here asking for his bond are going to advise him to leave the country and not come back. No bond. So at that point, I knew I was in a kangaroo court. The deck was stacked against me.
- [43:11]
A
So what were you actually convicted of when you got convicted, how long did that take?
- [43:17]
B
I kept getting re indicted. You know, one prosecutor told me, I'll indict you over every state you flew over. And they can, under the term conspiracy, you enter over a state air space, you actually can get indicted over that. I got indicted in South Florida, Central Florida, Georgia. I didn't get indicted Detroit, New York. And then ultimately I got indicted in the Bahamas also.
- [43:43]
A
Okay, and you end up getting 13 years.
- [43:46]
B
I've done about 13, 14 years. I did it in two phases. Okay, okay.
- [43:52]
A
What did they end up giving you?
- [43:53]
B
I got indicted for the big indictment. I got indicted on the thing called the 848 continuous criminal enterprise. You've heard of RICO? Everybody's heard of RICO, right? RICO's like a kindergarten school compared to CCE. At the time, the CCE could only be given by the Attorney General because very few people qualify for a cce. So if you made a mistake and the person got a cce, which is very easy to beat if you don't meet these requirements. Let me give you one. For example. Let's say that you have a pilot that's over here under the term cce, you have to be five direct employees. So this pilot that's testifying like Jack, testifying against me. And he would. And then my lawyer would say, well, Jack, didn't you also fly for Bill Smith over here? Yeah, I did a few trips for Bill. Did you do also a trip for Mary over there? Yeah, I did. So now he's not a direct employee, he's a freelance contractor. So that would throw off the 848. Under the new law under the new law on the A part of the cc, it starts at life. It's life to life, an automatic life sentence. I was indicted under the law before 88. Under the law of 1988 or before, in 848 started at 10 years. So under the old law. Listen to. This is crazy. People don't understand this, but Reagan changed the law. Okay, 19 before. Prior to 1987, 1988. If you got a 10 year sentence in prison, Rachel, you would do inside prison, actual time. You could be paroled in 18 months. You would say, how the hell can you get parole under 18 months? Well, you got to do two years in half, more or less, right? So now you get six months, halfway house. So it's 24. Take six months off of the 24, you're doing 18 months now, you qualify for parole and then another two years outside. And so you basically do 18 months in prison on a 10 year sentence. Now, under the new law, after 88, you do eight years, nine months. So you do nine years, what used to be only 18 months in prison. So it really became very scary under the. Under the new law, Actually, Jack did me a favor because I continued smuggling and I got. And I had been popped under the new law, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.
- [46:22]
A
Where's Jack today?
- [46:24]
B
In West Palm Beach.
- [46:25]
A
He's still alive?
- [46:26]
B
Yeah.
- [46:26]
A
And not in jail.
- [46:27]
B
Listen, I can't have any contact with the guy that put me in.
- [46:31]
A
Right?
- [46:31]
B
And how would I even know that? I don't even know how I know that, but I, you know, but he's living. He's living, okay? Yeah. And when, matter of fact, when I came home, the feds came to see me, knocked on my door, and they said to me, I said, what do you guys want with me? And the guy says, we want a list that we want to show you. So they gave me a list of names. And I said, you see all the names on this list? I said, yeah. He says, if anything happens to any one of these people, you're the first door we're going to come in to see, right? And I said, well, don't stop just at my door. I said, that part of my life is over with and I got nothing to do with it. I said, I moved on. I said, so, you know, you don't have to worry about me, but I will tell you, I'm not a hypocrite. Now, one of these guys, you know, on this list gets hit by a car. I'll go to the refrigerator, open Up a bottle of champagne and sit down and have a great, you know, smile on my face. I said, but am I gonna do any harm to anybody? No. I got other things to worry about. When I. Now I have a family. I got kids. I have children. I didn't have that before.
- [47:30]
A
When was the last time you spoke to Pablo Escobar? What was that conversation?
- [47:34]
B
Because he got shot. He got killed. He was shot by. Actually, he was shot by Colombians, but under the guidance of United States.
- [47:43]
A
Got it. All right.
- [47:45]
B
But Roberto I talked to. I used to talk to him on a regular basis.
- [47:48]
A
His son.
- [47:49]
B
Yeah, the brother.
- [47:50]
A
Oh, brother. Excuse me.
- [47:51]
B
Yeah.
- [47:51]
A
All right, so I want to go back to prison for one second, and I want to get into that. But when they finally put the hammer down and said, you know, here's what you're guilty for. What were you going into jail, serving? How many years did you think you thought it was 10? I thought what you thought. How many years did you think you had ahead of you in prison when you went at the time?
- [48:13]
B
Okay, if you're asking me what I thought, yeah, I didn't think I was gonna do any time at all. I bought a helicopter to escape from prison.
- [48:20]
A
And so.
- [48:21]
B
And then Jack and those guys. This is hard to get it out there. But Pablo asked me, what is it that you need from us? And I said, well, I need a pilot. I got the chopper already. I said, well, everybody's thinking that I'm going to cooperate or not cooperate or fight. I don't give a damn what they're thinking. My plan is the following. I want to just use the chopper to jump over the fence, and I'm going to Colombia, to one of the jungles where I land in. And then I said, and I got four problems that need to be taken care of. And I said, what are the problems? And I named 1, 2, 3, 4 names. I said, these are problems that I don't want my guys to have to face if I leave the country. And that Jack, was one of the problems. Somebody along the line said that I ordered a hit on the judge, and all that is not true. Never killed anybody or anything like that. I have suggested to somebody that you've got a problem. You stole this. You're gonna have to live the circumstances not by me.
- [49:18]
A
Okay. Again, I feel like we're gonna have to. Like, there's so much more. So hang on, let me think. Because George will cut this part out. I'm just gonna think how I'm gonna make a cliffhanger so Just to clarify, you were planning all this? You got the helicopter before you went into prison knowing.
- [49:41]
B
No, I bought the helicopter when I was in prison.
- [49:42]
A
How'd you get that done? You're on the phone. Like, how does that work?
- [49:45]
B
I have people. I got lawyers, I got people that. I'm still in prison.
- [49:48]
A
So everyone's communicating outside. Like, you guys can talk a little sidebar.
- [49:51]
B
Go. Going over here. I said, I need you to get me a chopper. I bought the helicopter from. In prison, but.
- [49:58]
A
So it's not like what prison is now. I feel like they tape everything. You can't.
- [50:02]
B
No, you can't talk freely. All the phone calls are monitored.
- [50:06]
A
Right.
- [50:06]
B
But I have lawyers that I have on payroll, you know, that I tell them. As a matter of fact, here's a funny one. F. Lee Bailey. You've heard that name, of course. F. Lee Bailey was my first lawyer. I got 20 pictures I could show you of me and F. Lee Bailey. I gave F. Lee Bailey a whole bunch of money. And then I said, listen, when the shit hits a fan, I don't want a generic lawyer there. I want you there. I'm not paying you with Monopoly bullshit money. Paying you with really cash. So I said, when the shit hits a fan, I want to see you there. Well, I should hit the fan. And he didn't show up. But not a happy camper.
- [50:40]
A
Yeah.
- [50:40]
B
All right. So later on, she shows up and he tells me, I've got everything worked out. You're gonna do 18 months total. You're gonna keep your business. At this point, they hadn't even talked to me about accounts in Europe. So I said, what do I have to do for all of this? And he said, you gotta roll on everybody. I never heard that term before. Rolled on it. I didn't know precincts vocabulary, right. So what does roll mean? He says, you have to cooperate and give up everybody. I give up everybody? What does that mean? He said, yeah, you have to like, tell the government this guy did this.
- [51:13]
A
Or like, be a rat.
- [51:14]
B
Exactly. So I said, all that money I gave you? He says, and you're telling me that I gotta be a rat? I said, I could have done that without you. So he said, well, you can't go to trial on this thing. There's too many. You got too many co defendants that are going to cooperate, and it's impossible to beat this case. I said, well, how come you didn't tell me that before I gave you all that goddarn money? He said, because I didn't know the length of This? I said, yes, you do. I told you I had a copy of the indictment before the shit hit the fan. So then he said, well, there's no way I'm defending this thing. So I said, well, then you're giving me my money back. And so he goes, no, I did my part, and you're the. I said, let me explain something to you, F. Lee. I said, if you don't give me my money back, buy a remote control to start your goddamn car every morning. I said, because all my Colombians are out there. That's all I got to say to you. Have a nice day. I got nothing else to lose. And I walked away, and he gave me my money back.
- [52:15]
A
Love that. We need to talk about where the money went. Where the money is, how you planned this escape with the helicopter, the two year stint in solitary and getting out of prison and what you're doing now. But I want to start with that first night in prison. Like, knowing you were staying there. What. What prison was like for you.
- [52:44]
B
Well, listen, I had to face, you know, five, six, seven agencies. I don't even know it was a task force, they call it. And when I got arrested, Rachel, believe it or not, it was actually a lot of pressure off of me because don't forget, I'm being followed by helicopters. I've got people sitting in front of my house, you know, Now I'm starting to lose control on keeping everything on a tight seal because my wife is asking me, who are those guys?
- [53:13]
A
She still doesn't know what you do?
- [53:15]
B
No, no. But now it's starting to get really thick, right? So now, how I covered that. Now, my mom obviously didn't live with me, so she didn't have any clue. But now my wife sees a car over here, she sees a helicopter coming to my driveway, and it got so blatantly put out there that now these guys are hovering on top of my driveway in a government chopper, where I'm looking at the guy's Ray Bans, and it's like I'm doing this to him and back. And I walked. One minute, I walked into the house, got a bottle of champagne, threw it, smashed it on the ground. $3,500 bottle of champagne. And I went like this to the guy, and they peel off. So now my wife, you know, it gets to a point that what's going on here? So I said, it's really simple, you know, I got the airplane business, and I'm selling airplane to some people in South America, and they want me to become a rat. They want me to cooperate, and I'm not gonna do that. Don't forget my mom's brother, my uncle shot in front of a firing squad. I don't do that. I don't hurt people that don't hurt me. So, wow, she's like, you know now. So that much she knew. And that's how I basically covered it, with selling airplanes to people from South America. That doesn't put me in any kind of drug business. That puts me close to it, but not in it, you know? So the hardest thing that I had to do, not getting arrested, that's a whole new game I'm going to play now. Hardest thing that I had to really do was the day I did get arrested. Rachel. Looking at my mom walking in through that door, and my mom looked at me and my mom said to me, tell me, son, what they're saying about you is not true.
- [55:01]
A
Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our Patreon at Patreon Misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcastmail. Com. That's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next.