← Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Advertiser
Meet Dan.
- [00:01]
Matt Hussey
Hey, how's it going?
- [00:02]
Narrator/Advertiser
Dan has big life goals. I'd love to own a home one day. Numerica Credit Union is the perfect partner to help make Dan's goals come to life. They are?
- [00:10]
Olivia
Yeah.
- [00:10]
Narrator/Advertiser
We help you manage your money with confidence, using tools and guidance tailored to your goals. So whether you're building breathing room into your budget or saving for your dream home like me, Numerica is there every step of the way because your goals and your life matter. Numerica Credit Union money where it matters. Federally insured by ncu.
- [00:30]
GoFundMe Announcer
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Rachel Yukatel
You by GoFundMe today on misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Can you explain what the ick is?
- [01:35]
Matt Hussey
The really defining characteristic of the ick is it's very, very sudden.
- [01:39]
Narrator/Advertiser
Have you ever seen Elaine dance?
- [01:42]
Matt Hussey
It was about five years ago. It's a sudden revulsion or repulsion to another person, typically a person who we are attracted to. The ick as we know it today, really em emerged in 2017 when a British reality TV star named Olivia Atwood first coined it. When you get the ick, like, it doesn't go. And it's one of those things, once you've caught it, it takes over your body.
- [02:04]
Rachel Yukatel
I definitely have felt it. And it comes out of nowhere. Why can such a small thing all of a sudden change your mindset?
- [02:11]
Matt Hussey
There's sort of three ways we can think about it. First is sort of evolutionary. The second one is about projection and bias. And the third and more subtle part.
- [02:21]
Rachel Yukatel
Of it is if you are grossed out or get an Ick. From the way somebody is on a date with you and holds their fork, how is that a projection of you or something you don't like about yourself?
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Matt Hussey
It's a great question, and I think that the simplest answer is.
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Rachel Yukatel
Have you ever been dating someone, Things are going well, and then out of nowhere, something tiny gives you that sudden ugh feeling. Maybe it's the way they chew, the way they laugh, the way they hold their fork, and just like that, you're completely turned off. That gut reaction has a name, and it's called the ick. We joke about it online and sitcoms. It's become a TikTok trend. But let's be honest, the ick is real. And for a lot of people, it's confusing. Why does it happen? Why does something so small feel so big? And maybe the most important question, when should we actually pay attention to the ick? And when is it just our own fear, perfectionism, or pickiness getting in the way of a really great potential relationship? To help us figure this out, I wanted to talk to someone who doesn't just look at dating from the outside, but who works with people on the inside. My guest today is Matt Hussey, a therapist based in London who specializes in relationship, self esteem and the messy human stuff that comes up when we try to get close to someone. He was recently quoted in Vogue explaining that the ick is visceral and hard to shake. And I knew I wanted to dive deeper into that with him when I read that. So today we found him and we're breaking down the psych psychology of the ick. What it is, why it happens, how to handle it, and what it reveals about us. This isn't just about dating horror stories. It's about understanding ourselves, our patterns, and how we build healthier connections. So let's get into it with Matt Huss. Matt, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood, all the way from London. How are you?
- [04:47]
Matt Hussey
I'm doing very well, Rachel. Thank you very much. Great to be here.
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Rachel Yukatel
I'm so happy that I was able to track you down. For people that don't know of you here in the United States, can you give us a little bit of background of who you are?
- [04:59]
Matt Hussey
Sure thing. So my name is Matt Hussey. I am a therapist and a journalist. Not to be confused with the other Matt Hussey, who is a very successful dating coach. I have taken a very different path. So I started out my professional career as a journalist, formerly trained in London, and I've written for magazines, newspapers, Websites, pretty much everything that you put words on. And I've been doing that for a long time, 20 years. But I. My sort of mental health, Jo, started in the sort of early 2000 and tens, really. I was having a very tough time in my own life. My family had sort of collapsed, parents went through a messy divorce in the courts, and I was really struggling to know how to deal with it all. So I started going to a therapist. Well, the first two therapists weren't great, which I can speak about, if that's interesting. Found a third therapist. She was wonderful. I spent the best part of a decade with her. And while I was in that work with her, a sort of light bulb went off in my head where I realized that journalism, as it once was, was about people and relationships and all that sort of thing, but became less so as time went on. And I really wanted to get back to that. I wanted to spend time with people, talking to people, understanding people. So I started my training in sort of 2014 and then went through various different guises and different training schools and sort of emerged during the COVID era, which was quite a difficult time for everybody, especially therapists. And ever since I have a private practice in London, I see people internationally. And I also. I write a lot about mental health. Sort of corners of the mental health world that people don't speak about, sort of hidden psychology, why we do certain things, the ick, for example. And that's where you find me here today.
- [06:57]
Rachel Yukatel
Okay. I love that. And I love that you brought up that you had a hard time finding the right therapist at the beginning. I do think a lot of people struggle with knowing what makes a good therapist, what doesn't. I always hear, listen, I've done a ton of therapy. I've had a lot of things happen in my life that I needed to see a therapist. And it was hard finding someone, but for different reasons. Right. Because I think a terrible relationship with a therapist is someone who enables a lot of the stuff that goes on or prescribes medications just to get rid of these symptoms as opposed to delving into it. But that's from an outsider, from an insider like you. What makes a good or bad therapist?
- [07:36]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, and it's a great question. And I think the. The simplest answer is it's a therapist you feel you can trust, and it's a therapist you feel you can have a kind of meaningful relationship with. I don't mean that in a romantic sense. I mean in a relationship that can allow you to bring material that you may not felt that you could or may not feel you were allowed to. And that could be stuff about and your story, or it can be about you and your therapist. Right. Some of the best relationships I've had with therapists and clients have had with me have been about the idea of, yes, we can talk about what happens out there, and we can talk about what happens back then, but can we talk about what happens in here when we work together? So for me, a good therapist is one who makes space for all three, isn't afraid of you being annoyed or upset about something they may have said, in fact, encourages it, because I think that's where the best relationships happen, when it can be feel more like equals than it is more like a authority and a client and someone that you like. I think that's really important. Like, if you don't like your therapist, you're not really going to want to tell them the deepest, darkest thoughts about.
- [08:47]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah, for me, I found that the people that I choose to continue with are ones that somewhat challenge me. Right. Like, if you sit there and you go to a therapist and you're talking about all these people you can't see stand in your life, or people that you have toxic relationships with, and they just keep verifying, you know, they agree with you, and they're like, yeah, that person's horrible. That's not helpful. You could do that with your girlfriends or your guy friends. Like, I have found that it's really helpful when somebody takes an actual issue and kind of turns it and says, let's look at it from a different angle and let's, like, figure out how you're going to attack this as opposed to just shitting on this, you know, person in the air for an hour. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [09:29]
Matt Hussey
I do, yeah. And the term we use in sort of the therapy side is collusion, right? So if you collude with your client or you collude with your therapist, it is this sort of endless cycle of yes, and isn't that terrible? And that sounds really bad, but you make a really good point, Rachel, which is, that's fine. And that can only take you so far in the work. But if it keeps happening, if there is what Freud calls the repetition compulsion, where we find ourselves in the same relationships making the same choices or finding ourselves in the same dilemmas, the thing we have to look at there is ourselves. And if your therapist isn't going to help you do that, then, as I'm sure you probably did in your experience, go and find somebody else. Because I do a bit of teaching. I look after other therapists as a supervisor. And one of the things I always say to therapists is, are we trying to be nice here or are we trying to be therapeutic? And they are not always the same thing.
- [10:30]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah. And it's funny. I learned early on in my life because I would see a therapist and then I would actually travel by myself. And I kind of learned through all of this that I'm the common denominator. So I better like being alone with myself, and I better like being alone with my thoughts. And so that was very helpful. And I. I learned that also in therapy that, like, I have to deal with me, I can't keep. You know, I can't blame others or all these external things. And I think therapy is very helpful is the bottom line. But I want to get to why I chased you around the world to find you. I read an amazing article in Vogue, which was picked up by other sources, about the ick, which I think is so amazing, because I've never thought of the ick as like, a scientific thing or something that doctors talk about, but I think we'. Experience. So before I get into what I think it is, can you kind of explain what the ick is?
- [11:25]
Matt Hussey
Sure, yeah. So it's. We may have encountered it online, but a sort of clear definition of it really is. It's a sudden revulsion or repulsion to another person, typically a person who we are either attracted to or in the really early stages of forming a relationship with. So most of the time, it's romantic when we think about it, but it can be professional environments, friendship environments, even family environments. We can have this sudden revulsion, almost like a disgust response about anything from someone wearing old socks to how they chew to maybe baby talk to an animal. Like, it can be anything. But the really defining characteristic of the ick is it's very, very sudden. And it really changes how we think about the person sat in front of you.
- [12:17]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. So why can such a sudden thing, like, you know, like you said, all those examples are perfect ones where I think in Vogue, they used it, something as simple as somebody, like leaping over a puddle sometimes gives somebody the ick. I definitely have felt it. And it comes out of nowhere. And why can such a small thing all of a sudden change your mindset?
- [12:40]
Matt Hussey
It's a great question. And there's three ways we can think about it and why it happens. So the first is sort of evolutionary, right? So humans developed a disgust response to prevent us from eating bad things or going into spaces that smell odd or even things like infections or cuts and bruises. Right. We are revolted by them. So it's designed to stay away from them.
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Rachel Yukatel
Right.
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Matt Hussey
That's part of it. The second one is sort of more subtle, which is about projection and bias. So what often happens, and when I see my clients who bring it into the room, is an ick can often be something we find disgusting in ourselves, and when it ends up in somebody else, we have this very instant revulsion to it. And the third and more subtle part of it is really about attachment styles. So what we see, or what I see a lot in my practice is people who have quite a fear of intimacy, want relationships, but don't really know how to go beyond the sort of the early days, the early weeks, and use the ick as a reason why they can't go on, a reason why they can't deepen their relationship. So it's a sort of form of defense in that way. So in summary, it's sort of. It's not as precise understanding, but it tends to come from those three kind of areas.
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Rachel Yukatel
Okay, I want to talk about the second thing that you brought up. So you talked about whether or not it's really about the other person and it's something that we are projecting. But let's talk about that for a minute. If you are grossed out or get an ick from the way somebody is on a date with you and holds their fork, or when, like you said, you know, all of a sudden they. They are reading off a menu and they use a word that's in French and they don't speak French or whatever, they do this weird accent. How. How is that a projection of you or something you don't like about yourself?
- [14:36]
Matt Hussey
Well, yes, great questions. Let's take the example of someone trying to play off the idea that they can speak French and they clearly can't.
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Rachel Yukatel
Right.
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Olivia
If we.
- [14:43]
Matt Hussey
If we sort of see the word.
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Rachel Yukatel
Is, oh, I'll order the chateaubriand, and they say something different and they screw up the word.
- [14:50]
Matt Hussey
So they screw up the word. So in that instance, if we zoom out and. And look at what that is, that is someone attempting and failing to do something that we think is very easy.
- [15:00]
Rachel Yukatel
Okay.
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Matt Hussey
So in that example, what that could be a trigger of is in our own lives, the idea of looking stupid or silly is a absolute. No, no. Right. And we. And we guard and defense against it. And we might do all these kinds of rituals and stuff before social situations to prevent us from ever looking that way. So someone doing it and maybe not having the right reaction to them doing it. So if they mess up Chateaubriand, if they don't own it, that little gap that's left for us to interpret how they perceive it can be about us and our own sense of, like, being humiliated or being stupid. Right. So if we think about what would we do if we did something stupid, we might rush in to correct it, or might rush in to beat someone to a punchline by saying, oh, we look stupid. Don't worry. I already know if the other person doesn't do that, that might be what that's about. Like, why aren't you rushing in to tell everyone how terrible you are?
- [16:04]
Rachel Yukatel
That's so true. I never thought of it that way. That's so. You know, I went out with somebody once who we were Order. So whatever he said, he's like, oh, you know, I want to order this, this, and I'll take the mozzarella and the ricotta. And I'm like. I was waiting for him to be like, I'm just kidding. Or do you love my accent? Because I thought he was being funny and he wasn't. And then a couple other times he would repeat it, and I was like, I can't ever date this person. So stupid. And you see Seinfeld episodes made, made from this. Like, the person that has the big hands or the close talker or whatever. And it's funny when you talk about it, but it could ruin your relationship.
- [16:42]
Matt Hussey
Absolutely. And I think, you know, to your point there, like, you sort of drill down a bit more into it. It's about social cues. We feel discomfort at something. We're waiting for the other person to just go, I was just messing around. Or, you know, that was a bit odd, wasn't it, like, to sort of own the cue. If you don't, we're left with this kind of like, was that. Was that a joke? Were they trying to be serious? And that discomfort also, like, can bring forward the ick. And to your point about it turning up in. In tv, we've kind of seen it in literature going back hundreds of years. In Greek mythology, there are stories of. Of relationships ending not by betrayal or something dramatic, but actually by a sudden loss of desire. I mean, we see it in English literature. I think it's Pride and Prejudice. The main character suddenly stops being attracted to a suitor because of how he behaves. And Ally McBeal, I think, was the first time it was talked about in TV in 1998. And so we've always sort of known. It's a thing that we have. But it didn't become this sort of cultural phenomenon until 2017, and a British reality TV star named Olivia Atwood first started using it on TV and it just gained momentum and the Internet helped propelled it to places far beyond my shores, to America and elsewhere, and it became more of a kind of cultural phenomenon that we now are talking about.
- [18:18]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [18:18]
Narrator/Advertiser
Meet Olivia hey, what's up? Olivia dreams big.
- [18:22]
Rachel Yukatel
I want to go back to school.
- [18:23]
Olivia
And get a pet and buy a house and save for retirement and travel the world.
- [18:28]
Narrator/Advertiser
That's quite the list.
- [18:29]
Rachel Yukatel
Thank you.
- [18:29]
Narrator/Advertiser
Numerica Credit Union is the perfect partner to help turn Olivia's dreams into reality.
- [18:34]
Rachel Yukatel
Really?
- [18:34]
Olivia
Yep.
- [18:35]
Narrator/Advertiser
We're all about helping our members create a life that feels like theirs. And we have the tools, expertise and guidance to make it happen.
- [18:42]
Rachel Yukatel
I'm in.
- [18:43]
Olivia
Let's get started.
- [18:45]
Narrator/Advertiser
Money where it Matters Federally insured by NCUA Are you a parent looking for an independent, flexible and tuition free school in Oregon? Evergreen Virtual Academy offers a dynamic and tuition free public education with Oregon certified teachers for PK through 12th grade students. Your student gets a laptop, live class sessions, and the ability to chart their own unique path. Plus in person events and social activities all year. When school has no walls, learning has no limits. Learn more and enroll now.
- [19:14]
Olivia
Evergreen Virtual Academy evergreenvirtual.org this podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. Last year I went through many different life changes. I needed to take a pause and examine how I was feeling in the inside to better show up for the ones who need me to be my best version of myself. When you're navigating life's changes, Talkspace can help. Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatry providers that you can access anytime, anywhere. Living a busy life, navigating a long distance relationship, becoming a first stepfather, Talkspace made all of those journeys possible. I could speak with my therapist in the office. I could speak of my therapist in the comfort of my home. I was never alone. Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com what if I told you that.
- [20:20]
Rachel Yukatel
The idea that you only get parasites when you travel to some exotic country is flat wrong? Millions of Americans carry par right now, often without symptoms. For example it's estimated that millions in the United States have been exposed to Toxocera, a parasitic worm, yet most never even know it. Parasites do not need a plane ticket. They can enter through tap water, sushi, undercooked foods or contaminated produce. Some strains live in all stages. Eggs, larvae, adults hidden in your gut, releasing toxins that sabotage your energy and digestion. That's why I'm excited about Parafi. Kim Rogers, 30 day full spectrum parasite cle. The kit works by clearing parasites, worms, Candida and heavy metals, targeting parasites in all life stages, supporting gut health, detox pathways and toxin removal. It's taken orally daily for 30 days with precise dosing. I'm actually doing it myself right now. I started with the lymph cleanse, then I'm doing the parafi. Wanna dive deep? I did a full interview with Kim Rogers, the worm queen herself, where we expose all the myths, understand the facts and show how to protect your body. Listen to that episode if you haven't already. Meanwhile, go to rogershood.com and use the code Rachel to get 10% off of your order. That's R A C H e L for 10% off. Give it a try. Maybe your body's missing link is hiding inside. Let's do this together. Again, it's Rogershood.com, r O G E R S H-O-O-D.com, and use the code Rachel for 10% off. So, but can you talk about the difference in the sudden loss of desire when it has to do with this sudden thing that you could put your finger on and be like, this person does X, Y, Z or people have been in a relationship and it sometimes doesn't have to be that long, or sometimes it's after years of a relationship or a marriage that there is a loss of intimacy or desire. What's the difference? And can you get out of it? And then we'll talk about how to.
- [22:23]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, great question. So, yeah, there's two ways of thinking about the ick. There is the surface ick. So those are the icks that turn up early on in relationships. And they are things like how someone chews or how someone pronounces things. And with those ones, and we'll talk about it a bit later, they offer us a chance to reflect on what's really going on there. Is it something larger or is it something of ourselves? Is it about our fear of vulnerability? We can explore that. But then there are deeper level icks. And that might be about things like how people handle conflict how they talk to. To their parents, how they talk to you or someone of your family. Right. How they relate to you and your world may be a sign, a red flag of something way more problematic about compatibility. And how we query those and understand those requires a bit of sort of going away and thinking about it. But a lot of the time the difference can be really subtle. And without sort of closer inspection. We can take something small, like someone wears red socks. Right. And make it a far bigger problem of compatibility, but also vice versa. People can take really quite deep flaws in another person and make them smaller and minimize them.
- [23:49]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
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Matt Hussey
And that refers to. And there's actually a term for that called limerence, which is the opposite of the ick, which is a sort of obsession with the other person, even when the other person doesn't treat us very well. And that's a separate topic. But it's really important that we learn how to investigate whether it's something small and can be moved past or talked through, or it's something larger, something about what the person thinks about the world, thinks about you, thinks about your choices.
- [24:19]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. So I'm glad you brought up before about the red flags. Right. So you've said that ick feels real and visceral, but it's not always a red flag. How do you tell the difference between the harmless ick and the sign that you should actually pay attention to and say, okay, I've gotta get out of here?
- [24:36]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, it's a great question. It's quite a tricky answer because we have to bring in social media here because what we now see, especially online and especially with clients I work with, is the ick can become a form of entertainment. It can become content. It can become a story that we tell friends over dinner the next week. So when we detect the ick, when we detect a red flag, there can be a part of us that goes, this is definitely a red flag. I'm going to end this relationship or not going to contact this person again. And then I'm going to go and talk about it as a kind of funny anecdote. So there's a thing that we do which is we amplify the red flag of it because it might be useful for us in a different way. It might be useful for us to tell a story about how we met this terrible person, we had this terrible day. So that's the first thing I just wanted to get out of the way because I think that's important to mention. But how do we detect if it's something larger or Smaller. I think the first thing is when we feel it, sit with it, how long does it stay around? Right. If it's something that, you know, it's something. How they chewed their food and basically finish eating, does it go away or does it linger? And does it linger for the rest of the day or does it linger long after we've left? If it does, then the question we have to ask ourselves is, what was it about that thing that I witnessed that was so bothersome for me? And a bit like what we mentioned earlier, which is if we zoom out and go, what am I so repulsed by? Is it that they ate in a certain way that I was always told you shouldn't?
- [26:23]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [26:23]
Matt Hussey
Was it that they were eating in a way that I think I was showing them, I was communicating to them that I didn't really like it and they went on anyway, so I felt like I was being disrespected.
- [26:35]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [26:36]
Matt Hussey
Was it that they were nervous? Was it that they were really excited and telling a story and they really wanted to get it out and eat at the same time?
- [26:45]
Rachel Yukatel
Yeah.
- [26:46]
Matt Hussey
So it's a kind of like a spectrum. Right. And. And where we land on that spectrum of what how we interpret really is about, like what are we trying to achieve by. By signaling something wrong? Are we trying to say, this is over, I cannot go forward, or are we going. I'm curious about what their version of that red flag was like. Was it just an error that they missed? Was it what they believe? Was it how they feel? Like these are sort of the ways we can start to tease out whether it's something that is a no go for us, end the relationship, or it's something we can move past because they tend to happen at the beginnings of relationships because we don't have the depth in the relationship to move past it. Right. We see. You know, if you think about online dating, I've done online dating. I'm sure everyone listening has done online dating. We're all prompted to make snap decisions about people based on really little information.
- [27:50]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. I was actually. Go ahead, go ahead.
- [27:55]
Matt Hussey
So, yeah, five photos of someone, their first name, their age and location might be all we know about someone. And that might be enough to say no. And if you think about that, get beyond the five photos and the name and the location, we are still primed to make really instant assessments over who someone may or may not be based on really, really thin amounts of information.
- [28:23]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. And. And sorry, when you're talking about that, I just was thinking in my head about whether or not these dating apps make us more prone to get the ick because we know there's another option waiting just to swipe away 100%.
- [28:37]
Matt Hussey
So we see it in the research now that relationships become more transactional. People tend to end relationships sooner than they have done any time in history. That's not always a bad thing, right? What online dating really gave to so many people is choice. But when we're given too much choice and when we're always told and reminded that if this isn't working, there is a hundred potential sutures for you out there waiting on an app. Our desire and drive to try and work out whether this thing in front of us is worth pursuing versus throw it away and just go and try something else can become a bit of a trap. We can start to get in this endlessly disposable. Everything's transactional. I don't have to try very hard. If this person isn't exactly what I want them to be, get rid of them.
- [29:35]
Rachel Yukatel
Right, Right. And the more you talked about how many. How much has been brought into mainstream television, for example, it's never called the ick in there. It's just something. And we all laugh or get it because it is relatable. And as you were talking, I was thinking, oh, my God, I've seen this again in Seinfeld where Elaine, who everyone's in love with, starts dancing. Do you remember the scene where she dances and George, who was kind of in love with her, is like, oh, I'm not interested anymore. Or in Curb youb Enthusiasm. There was an episode I watched recently, an old one probably, where he had just started dating a woman. They go to a. A dinner party at friends houses and he walks straight into a glass door. And after that, she's so grossed out by him because it signifies to her the way she verbalized it is that he was old and, like, senile, kind of. And it didn't make him seem masculine or manly to her anymore, so she just couldn't date him. And we laugh about it because it is still relatable. And we get that whether or not people call it the end 100%.
- [30:45]
Matt Hussey
And that's a really good example that you gave there, Rachel, because that was about vulnerability, right. She looked upon that man. And when you're not the protector or the carer that I wanted you to be because of that thing I watched you do.
- [31:02]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [31:02]
Matt Hussey
And so that's. So that's. And that's a really great, like, jumping off point to explore with that person. Why do we need someone to be that version of a, of a man for us. What's the fear there? That we can't be looked after, that they can't protect us. All really valid fears. But they should be explored, right? Because this person might be the best provider and carer you've ever met. But if we throw it all away because of they walked into a door, we'll never know.
- [31:35]
Olivia
Right?
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Rachel Yukatel
Right. Because we have to remind ourselves we've all done stupid or embarrassing things as well. We probably just don't want to admit it. Right. Or, you know, we don't talk about those as much as we pointed out in others.
- [31:47]
Matt Hussey
Right. And that's where sort of culture and values comes into play with all this. Right. Because in certain cultures and circles, so being British, for example, there is a real thing about being self deprecating, right? To point out your own flaws, to admit it when you've been silly or stupid as an opportunity to connect. Now there are other cultures and I have clients from other cultures where that is not permitted, where the last thing you do is volunteer that you have made, you've made mucked up something or done something wrong. And so with the ick, it can be felt stronger in more cultures than others. So especially in British culture where the term kind of originated from, it's really, really important that people talk about the things they mess up and show a self awareness in how flawed they are. But other cultures, the opposite is true. So you can, you do get a lot of clashing between cultures, between norms and values, especially people meeting from different places where those social cues aren't aligning and that discomfort adds up to a version of the ick.
- [32:56]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. I want to talk about the psychology itself behind it, like what is happening psychologically when the initial excitement of dating collapses into the ick. Is it about idealizing someone and then reality is actually breaking through or where are we at psychologically?
- [33:15]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, a couple of. Couple of ways. Depends on the person. So in that example you gave absolutely the. The fantasy of the person run away from the lived experience of the person. So if you sort of think about it, let's say you meet someone, if you were to plot how you expected or felt that person along a graph of two lines, the fantasy version starts climbing much faster than the lived experience version. What will happen at some point is those two lines will have to snap back together and it almost always is the fantasy line coming down the lived experience line. So that sort of busting of a bubble or busting of a fantasy can be a version of the ick. But on the other side of that, there's a different one, which is I'm going to use a kind of. I'm going to feel this sense of disgust because I don't want the person or they. This is going so well. I have to reject it because I'm fearful of what happens if we get more vulnerable, what happens if we get more intimate. So that's more of a defense, Right. Where we use the ick to stop something going any further.
- [34:27]
Rachel Yukatel
Right, Right. Okay. I want to talk about the coping or the responding to this for people that are listening, that have experienced this or are currently experience it before they ghost someone or break it off, you know, but they otherwise like the person. What are the things you could do to. To get this ick out of your mind and. And have it stop affecting your relationship?
- [34:51]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, great question. So I think the first thing is to kind of sit with it it for a bit, Right. If you're on a day and it happens, can you sit with it for the rest of the day, half an hour, an hour, and just try and play through what was it beyond the event? What was it about that thing that bothered you so much? Was it something to do with you? Was it something to do with actually who you think that person might be? And with both of those, there is an opportunity to bring it back to this person. Now, this requires us to be a bit braver and bolder and to bring this stuff back into conversations, but it can be really useful to say, like, I had a great time with you last night or last week, but there's just something I want to talk about. Yeah, right. Which feels like you can feel the. The tingling, bubbling.
- [35:48]
Rachel Yukatel
How do you do that without embarrassing them or making it sound cruel?
- [35:52]
Matt Hussey
And that's where the kind of the. The gentleness really comes in. Right? So we, first of all, for us to talk about it, we have to own it first. Right? So we have to say, like, I had a great time yesterday, last night, whatever, but there's something that just triggered me or upset me that. That is not you. But I just want to talk about. I just want to explain because you may have noticed I suddenly went a bit cold, or I became a bit distant, or we ended the date sooner than perhaps we wanted to.
- [36:27]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [36:27]
Matt Hussey
And to go first and say, this might just be my own stuff I have to deal with, but I want to give you the chance to hear it and I want to give you the chance to talk about it.
- [36:39]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [36:41]
Matt Hussey
And the really, really tricky bit there is to always say and own up to it. It's our thing first. But what might happen is they may say, oh, I get told that all the time. People always complain about me chewing with my mouth open, for example. Then we get more choice, Right? Right.
- [37:02]
Rachel Yukatel
Then we say like, can you deal with that? Can you keep going with that? If they have been told before and don't change it? Well, that brings me into my next question. When should we actually trust the ick and walk away? And for some people that are listening, I think you also have to point out the obvious. But like, like, you know, you brought it up before when somebody speaks rudely to staff or they talk terribly. For me, listen, I have a child. I've been divorced for 10 years. My daughter's 13. I don't date anybody that, this is not an ick. This is just a thing that I don't like. If they speak badly about their ex wives and talk about how they're gold diggers and they don't want to pay them child support and this, that and the other thing, I can't. That's a terrible quality in my opinion. Even if they hate their ex, I don't think that they should be telling their new girlfriend about how much they hate their ex. It just to me is a terrible quality. So that is something that is a deal breaker for me. So again, how do you know when to walk away?
- [38:00]
Matt Hussey
Yeah, and that's a great question. And I think what I, what I heard in what you were saying there is, is, is a really, really important value judgment that you have, right? So if you're with someone, you want a date and they start doing that, you have a choice. You can either go, I'm going to stop you right there and just end the day. And you don't have to offer an explanation if you don't want to. Or you could be curious and ask, why do you think it's important to tell me how much you hate your ex? What do you think that tells me about you? You and, and, and, and to be curious about it, right? To be like. Because actually what might happen is it might be a complete mistake. Right. And they were nervous and they, and they liked you and they, they thought liking you, showing you they liked you was showing that they don't like who they were before. That could be something that you could work through and you could, and then you could reiterate to them. That's something that's not appropriate for me. Right. Or they could be like, no, they're terrible. I hate them. And then you go, okay, well, that's. I. I've been through that experience. I've had relationships, and I have had people that I'm still connected with. I don't think it's appropriate to tell strangers how terrible they are.
- [39:24]
Rachel Yukatel
Right.
- [39:24]
Matt Hussey
And just. And to stick with your instincts as a trust, your own instincts, that decency and accepting that everyone comes with a past and everyone comes with some graveyards and some skeletons in your closet. But do they need to be so obviously offered or used to further your own cause? I don't think they do.
- [39:48]
Rachel Yukatel
And I think that's important to bring it up because you mentioned something about it before. We all go through life with our own experience, and we have to remember that we're not all going to react the same way to things based on who we grew up as and what our experience in life is. And if you go through life and relationships thinking, oh, someone's going to deal with conflict or grief or sadness the same way I do, and then you're weirded out or grossed out or icked, you know, icked out, whatever the word is, by how they react, I think it is important to check yourself for a second and say, well, I've got to give them some grace in the fact that I was taught a different way than they were taught or, you know, and if you could deal with it, if you can, if you like this person enough, besides that quality that you can, like we talked about, have that conversation to see if you can move forward in a light and caring way 100%.
- [40:43]
Matt Hussey
And it's a really important point that you bring up, Rachel, which is. TV shows for the past 20 years have been all about people, deal breakers, unacceptable. And. And culture in general, general has been about this very individualized view, which is, I'm right, right? I'm always right. And that can feel really empowering in the moment, right? To. To cast off a day or to dismiss someone because of something small that they did. Right. And that could make us feel powerful and interesting. Control. But ultimately, where does it lead you any closer to the thing that I think you're looking for, which is connection, intimacy, trust, all those really wonderful things. And so when we keep rushing into these experiences and going, well, I'm right and they're wrong, where does that lead you? Is to ask ourselves, like, does that get me any closer to where I want to go? And to your example, There may be some compatibility issues that we cannot resolve. But if we're always reaching for, throwing someone away, embarrassing them, humiliating them, telling Them, that they're. They're not for us because of these small things that might feel good for about 10 seconds, but that we're still alone. Your point about where we all come from and how we fit together. We don't fit together, like, straight away. Very, very rarely do people fit with each other. It takes work. It takes arguments. Like me and my partner, I've been married for three years. We had lots of clashes in the beginning, lots of opportunities to be icked out and to end it. But we kept going, we kept talking. And what we found is actually their version of the story allowed us to see past it or to accept it or to forgive it. And so we managed to get beyond that initial phase where we could create something deeper. And that's something I try to teach my clients, which is, you may be icked out, there may be a red flag, but can we sit with it long enough to explore it, to see if there's something beyond it, or is it something about us?
- [43:05]
Rachel Yukatel
Right. And then it also gives you a chance to understand if it's something that you can learn tolerance of or if you need to learn change within yourself, too. So one or the other. Which brings me to my last question for you. What three. If you can come up with three, green flags matter way more than the ick.
- [43:26]
Matt Hussey
Oh, curiosity. Curiosity about you, Curiosity about the world, curiosity about just life in general. That's a really. That's a green flag. Willingness to admit mistakes. That's a big green flag because it shows you. It shows there's someone you can work with. Because as you know, as everyone, I'm sure listening knows, life will throw really, really hard things at you. And especially in relationships, and if the other person isn't willing to admit when they have made errors or mistakes, that's a challenge. And I think the third one, the last one, the third green flag is empathy. Not just empathy for loved ones, you know, the people already in your life already very safe. Empathy for people who may not be in our lives. Empathy for people in our lives. Empathy for people who we don't know. And that can be in the news, that can be in social media, that can be stories from other people. Empathy, the willingness to listen and try to hold the experience of somebody else, I think would be.
- [44:37]
Rachel Yukatel
I love that. I think that you are awesome. I really like you. I think that you. I'm hoping that people will contact you. You obviously do telemedicine or whatever. People can hire you from anywhere, and you can do sessions online.
- [44:53]
Matt Hussey
They can indeed. Yeah. I Am I am global and available. Yeah. So just reach out and tell people.
- [44:59]
Rachel Yukatel
Where they can find you and also mention all your specialties. Like what kind of things do you do? Relationships, marriage counseling. Like listed all that you cover.
- [45:07]
Narrator/Advertiser
Sure.
- [45:07]
Matt Hussey
So you can find me on Instagram and my tagline will appear on the podcast. Thank you for that. I'm on LinkedIn. If you Google my full name and therapist, I will turn up. So you can reach out to me on any of those platforms. In terms of what I specialize in, I tend to specialize in trauma, anxiety, depression. I do a lot of work on sexual abuse in relationships and outside relationships. I have work with couples. I've also done a bit of group work. So there's a group of you who are listening, who want to have a. Have a kind of therapeutic experience. I can help with that too.
- [45:49]
Rachel Yukatel
Amazing. Okay. And for people listening, not watching, can you just say what your Instagram is?
- [45:54]
Matt Hussey
Yeah. So it's my surname, which is Hussy. H U double S for sugar. Ey with an extra H and an extra Y on the end. So it's H Hussey with an extra yeah, got it.
- [46:06]
Rachel Yukatel
Okay. Awesome. Matt, thank you so much. I really appreciate this and I hope that our listeners will take advantage of your skills because you, you the way you verbalize stuff and, and share your answers to this. But also you can tell that you have a lot of knowledge. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
- [46:23]
Matt Hussey
Thank you very much for having me. Rachel.
- [46:33]
Rachel Yukatel
Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yukatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our patreon@patreon.com misunderstood with Rachel Ukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email us@infomisunderstoodpodcastmail.com that's spelled M I L SS. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.
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Matt Hussey
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Rachel Yukatel
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Matt Hussey
Hey, how's it going?
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