The Private World of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy | Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel #359

Summary

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Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

Episode #359: The Private World of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy

Date: February 28, 2026
Guest: Guy Clark

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Rachel Uchitel sits down with her close friend Guy Clark to discuss the enigmatic Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy—her private life, personal style, and her relationship with John F. Kennedy Jr.—as reflected both in memory and recent portrayals in the "Love Story" docuseries. Guy, who was Carolyn's confidant during her transformative years in New York, offers first-hand stories and insights that challenge the public’s perception, shedding light on the real Carolyn beyond headlines and myth.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Meeting Carolyn: The Cartier Connection

• Guy's Role: He worked at Cartier during the 1990s, heading the high jewelry department.

• First Encounter (04:00): Guy first met Carolyn when she visited Cartier with a rare, not-yet-launched solid gold watch, which led him to realize she was “somebody.”

  • Notable Quote (06:06):

    “She had a watch that didn’t exist, and it was solid gold. That was freaky... So I swooped down and took it away from the sales girl because she was clueless… We instantly became friends. I loved her the moment I met her.” — Guy Clark

• Signature Watch (07:00): Guy clarifies misconceptions about Carolyn's iconic timepiece, revealing he sold her the sterling silver Tank watch she wore everywhere, correcting years of rumors attributing the piece to Jackie Kennedy.

2. Carolyn's Aura and Image

• Ethereal Presence (08:13): Carolyn could quietly command a room not just with beauty, but with an ineffable aura.

  • Notable Quote (08:13):

    “She was ethereal. She could walk into a room and stop traffic—not because she was the most beautiful person, but she had an aura… that je ne sais quoi everyone wanted.”—Guy Clark

• Style & Simplicity: Minimalism was Carolyn’s signature—favoring “Prada, black and white, chic and simple,” which inspired a generation’s aesthetic.

3. Adjustment to Public Life

• Reluctant Celebrity (09:00–14:30):

  • Carolyn was deeply uncomfortable with the paparazzi and sudden fame that came with dating JFK Jr. Guy often helped her find retreats, including lunches at empty restaurants and visits to Cartier, which acted as a safe haven.
  • She rode the subway to avoid attention, defying her “untouchable” public image.

• Selective Intimacy: Carolyn quickly made Guy a close friend, seeking empathy and privacy during a turbulent public transition.

• Compassion (15:00):

  • Carolyn’s gesture to send earrings to Guy’s mother after she lost a child (15:00–16:10) shows her deep compassion, contradicting the cold image painted by tabloids.

4. Romantic History & Inner Circle

• Past Relationships:
  • Discussion of overlaps between Carolyn, Michael Bergen, and Daryl Hannah. Rachel shares her own brief dating history with Michael, noting how enthralled he was with Carolyn (09:30–11:22).
• Small Circle:
  • Carolyn had few close friends. Guy, not part of her family or social obligations, became a sanctuary—an “outsider” trusted precisely because he expected nothing of her.

5. Life with John F. Kennedy Jr.

• Their Apartment (20:00):

  • Description of their Tribeca home: open, simple, no doorman or security, emphasizing their desire for normalcy and privacy.
  • Stories of their houseman, affectionate details of the home’s layout, and the lack of curtains despite their fame.

• Complicated Pressures:

  • Guy describes Carolyn’s struggles with the relentless public attention and JFK Jr.'s lack of understanding about how invasive it could be to someone unprepared for that world (29:12):

    "She told me that he didn't understand that she was so unprepared for public life... This was the problem that continued through their marriage. She really hated being thrown into the limelight." — Guy Clark (29:12)

6. Personality Beyond the Myth

• Thoughtful, Intelligent, and Funny (31:11):

  • Carolyn could be girly and playful, discussing her hair color, venting about her day or seeking advice—contrasting with her often “icy” media portrayal.

• Direct Impact:

  • Guy recalls how Carolyn “never lost eye contact,” could focus deeply on people in conversation, and always made him feel uniquely valued.

• Her Own Style, not Jackie's (32:51):

  • Though the public loved to compare her to Jacqueline Kennedy, Guy confirms the two never even met, and Carolyn crafted her own path without maternal-in-law influence.

7. Inside the Kennedy World: George Magazine, Jackie, and Legacy

• George Magazine (34:07):
  • Carolyn visited JFK Jr. at his magazine office, mingled with his staff, and sometimes gifted her friends and John’s assistant Rosemary with now-iconic pieces.
• Jackie Kennedy:
  • Guy briefly worked with Jackie at Cartier and describes her in-person presence—her signature lisp and delicacy, and details like her watch engraved for the baby Patrick who died as an infant.

8. Life and Letters: A Private Correspondence

• Handwritten Letters (41:27):

  • Guy shares he gifted the Kennedys custom-engraved Cartier stationery as a wedding present.
  • Reading from Carolyn's letters, he reveals their warmth and mundane reality, a friendship grounded in support and shared vulnerability.
    • Notable Quote (44:23):

      "To know instantly that you love somebody and you're gonna cherish them and support them and protect them. That's how I felt about her." — Guy Clark

• Journey to Vero Beach:

  • Carolyn and John briefly lived in Florida while he took flying lessons; Carolyn intended to build a bond with Guy’s mother, but tragedy intervened.

9. Final Days and Tragedy

• Departure from Cartier & Last Projects (46:50–49:36):

  • Guy left Cartier, contemplated starting an interior design career, and was helping the Kennedys plan a new house when tragedy struck.

• Flight Details & Accident (59:11):

  • Discussion of the doomed private plane trip: late departures, John piloting with a broken foot and incomplete instrument training, and the “perfect storm” of small variables.
  • Notable Quote (61:17):

    "There's no way a person without instrument rating could know how to fly in dense fog over the water. There's just no way..." — Guy Clark

• Shock and Aftermath (53:55):

  • National Enquirer tried to fabricate a romantic affair between Guy and Carolyn using their correspondence.
  • Guy recalls the emotional impact of her death, expressing a lasting sense of protection and loyalty to Carolyn's memory.

10. Carolyn’s Essence & What We Get Wrong

• Reality vs. Myth:

  • Guy laments how, after her death, Carolyn was often portrayed as cold, difficult, or a problem spouse—whereas he saw her as innocent, graceful, smart, and purely kind (66:55).
    • Notable Quote (66:55):

      "She was just a girl that was thrust into the limelight, unknowing, unaware, and kind of unprotected… but always graceful, kind, innocent, fiercely smart, and intuitive."

• On TV’s Portrayal:

  • The "Love Story" series is, in Guy’s view, surprisingly accurate about their aura, though it necessarily fictionalizes many conversations and moments.

• Final Word:

  • Both Rachel and Guy reflect on the public’s current appropriation of Carolyn and John's image, the sadness of their lost futures, and the inevitability of their legend (67:43–68:14).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

04:13 – Guy on meeting Carolyn for the first time:
“I loved her the moment I met her. I never heard of Carolyn Bessette… It wasn’t my thing to follow that stuff.”

15:55 – Gift for Guy’s mother:
“She walked from Cartier to Sutton Place where I lived, gave [earrings] to the doorman and said, ‘These are for Guy’s mother for Mother’s Day because she just lost a child.’ That’s the kind of person she was that nobody knows.”

29:12 – On Carolyn's struggles with public life:
“She told me that he didn't understand that she was so unprepared for public life… She really hated being thrown into the limelight.”

44:23 – On rare deep friendships:
“To know instantly that you love somebody—and you're gonna cherish them and support them and protect them. That's how I felt about her. That's how I feel about you, too.”

61:17 – On the plane crash:
“My mother, who's a pilot, said that there's no way a person without instrument rating could know how to fly in dense fog over the water. There's just no way…”

66:55 – What Guy wants people to remember:
“She was always graceful, kind, innocent, but also fiercely smart and intuitive. Some of that comes across in the show, but they’ll never get the exact person that she is.”

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Segment Timestamps Overview

• 01:31 — Guest introduction
• 04:00–06:16 — First meeting at Cartier, the watch story
• 07:54–08:53 — Carolyn’s aura, style, and personal impact
• 15:00–16:10 — Gift for Guy’s mother, her compassion
• 20:03 — Description of John & Carolyn’s apartment
• 29:12–30:26 — Pressures of public life
• 31:11–32:51 — Carolyn’s sense of humor, intellect, and vulnerability
• 41:12–44:23 — Reading of Carolyn’s letters, stationery gift
• 53:55–55:35 — National Enquirer and rumors; Guy’s emotional aftermath
• 59:11–61:54 — Plane crash details and reflections
• 66:55–67:43 — Guy on Carolyn’s true character
• 68:03–68:33 — Reflections on their enduring legacy

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Miss Understood offers an intimate, heartfelt, and at times emotional look into the real Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. Through Guy Clark's stories and mementos, listeners are invited to move beyond tabloid headlines and celebrity myth to see Carolyn as a multi-dimensional woman: compassionate, private, fiercely loyal, and forever misunderstood. The conversation is as much about honoring a lost friend as it is redefining a public figure, resonating with anyone who’s ever felt unseen.

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Transcript

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[Rachel Yucatel]

Guy Clark, thank you so much for joining me today on Misunderstood.

[Guy Clark]

Hi, gorgeous.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So I am lucky enough to be a very good friend of yours and you of my. Of me. But you know, it came to my attention just recently of how good of friends you were with Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And John F. Kennedy Jr. Yeah. And everyone has been watching Love Story. It is such an incredible docu series so far because we grew up in the 90s in New York watching this happen in. Or I did in the papers.

[Guy Clark]

Right. So did I. I grew up watching it too.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah. And it was. To rewatch it through this docu series is fascinating. Cause you remember like the. How minimalism, like the minimalisticness or whatever,

[Guy Clark]

the weight, you remember what you were wearing and how you wanted to be them.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

And.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And how Calvin Klein was all the rage and it was just so chic. And she was the it girl. She was the girl you wanted.

[Guy Clark]

Simplicity, was it? And she was simplicity.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. So are you watching the show?

[Guy Clark]

I'm watching it, yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And do you. How do you feel about it?

[Guy Clark]

To be honest with you, I was a little apprehensive at first because frankly, I was very close to her and I knew him pretty well and I felt that I was going to hate it and I've actually enjoyed watching it. I haven't cried through the whole thing, which I thought I would do, so.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow. All right, well, let's actually get right into that because you knew them very well. How did you know them? What were you doing In New York

[Guy Clark]

at the time, back in the 90s, I worked at Cartier in New York. I was in the high jewelry department, which meant basically that I was selling the big jewelry. And I didn't know Carolyn at all. She came into the store in her black and white, Prada stuff, very simple. She walked in. I was kind of the head salesman, so I would watch over the boutique girls. And she walked into the main boutique and I saw her. And I just stood there on the next level, watching down. And she took out of her backpack this box with a watch in it that didn't exist. And I knew the watch. Cause I'd been to Paris recently, talked to the. The executives, and I knew this watch was being launched, but I'd never seen it in person except for, you know, the prototype. And I. So I swooped down and took it away from the sales girl because she was clueless. And. And I brought her into my little office off the main gallery. Had a little boiserie paneled, French, you know, of course, little room, eight by ten. And I sat her down and we instantly became friends. I loved her the moment I met her. I didn't know. I never heard of Carolyn Bessette. It wasn't my thing to follow that stuff. Normally I didn't know who she was.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So at the time, was she already in the papers?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, she was already in the papers. But to be honest, it wasn't my thing to follow her. I was more interested in him personally. Right. Because he's so handsome.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Of course. So, okay, but you had seen the papers about him dating Daryl Hammond.

[Guy Clark]

Right, right, right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And then maybe this new girl. It didn't really register, but.

[Guy Clark]

Well, it registered, but it wasn' like I wasn't paying attention. It was like another girl for John, who cares? You know, Next.

[Rachel Yucatel]

You know, and for people that are listening, that don't remember, we were in the Post seeing every day how he didn't pass the bar or. I remember when his magazine George came to fruition and like, that whole thing. And I remember a lot about the bar. I remember a lot of photographs about his bike. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was embarrassing.

[Guy Clark]

And he was always running around town on his bike, you know, with his suit pant rolled up and his. His hat on backwards, his cap. And he was trying to be a normal guy and he tried really hard, and I always appreciated that. He and I were in boarding school at the same time, competing schools. And you would hear stories about him and all this stuff. It didn't really interest me except for how he Looked without his shirt on. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Of course.

[Guy Clark]

Terrible.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So you became instant friends with her.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, we became really friends.

[Rachel Yucatel]

How did she get this watch? What was this watch?

[Guy Clark]

It's interesting. She and John went to a party in Geneva. They were invited to a dinner. Now, when you're invited to a dinner, you assume that it's a dinner, an intimate dinner. There was like 500 people there. They were mortified because they hadn't really been out and about that much at that point. This is early 1996. Okay. I don't remember the ex. I know the exact day I met her was April 18, 1996. And I know that because I wrote in my diary, I met this beautiful human named Carolyn Bissette. And she's so ethereal, and I had all these notes about her. It was interesting.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So when you met her, what made her stand out?

[Guy Clark]

Well, first of all, she had a watch that didn't exist, and it was solid gold. And that was freaky because I didn't even have stock numbers yet for her. So I.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So she must have been somebody that had access to.

[Guy Clark]

Which is why I thought, oh, this is somebody. Put her in the private room, shut the door, and get to know her. Because that's how I made my money back then. Right. So I asked her, what do you want to do? She said, this is a solid gold watch. I'm never going to wear this. This is not my style. I need something really simple. So here's something that's really interesting. I've been quiet for 26 years, 30 years, or whatever it is now. Yeah, it's 30 years, isn't it? It's 30 years. I've been quiet all this time, and I'm finally finding my voice to talk about her because I was keeping her close to me by keeping my mouth shut. And I was keeping our friendship quiet because I didn't think it was appropriate to come out. But anyway, so she brought in the watch. The watch was gold. It was a gold tank francaise, which is now still very popular all these years later. And she said she wanted something simple. So I got her a sterling silver La Muste Cartier tank watch on a black strap. And that's the watch she's seen wearing everywhere. It's not Jackie's watch. It's not Prince Radziwell's present to Jackie or any of those watches that were tank watches. It wasn't even the tank watch that JFK gave to Jackie when Patrick was born, who died a few days after birth. It was the watch I sold her that she's photographed in. And nobody knows that. And everybody's been writing on all these blogs about her watch. It's crazy. Like, there's one thing on. It's called the Two Misses on Instagram. And like a thousand people have written to me about this watch. Cause I chimed in and said, hey, I sold her that watch. It was silver. It wasn't gold. It wasn't Jackie's. It was hers. Wow.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So what was she like, though? Cause there's so much mystery around her. Right. There's the version that people know from working with her. And then the version that after she's with John, she's very much. Her world really closes. Although it seems like it was sort of closed before John. So can we talk about her personality and her look and all that stuff?

[Guy Clark]

She was. I don't know how to describe it, but she was ethereal. She could walk into a room and stop traffic. Not because she was the most beautiful person in the world. No. She had an aura about her instantly. That's what attracted John to her also. I believe that she had that je ne sais quoi, that something special that everybody wanted and wanted to know her because of that. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And the way they portray her so far in the series is that she's playing these games, you know, or she's playing hard to get. Did she have that kind of confidence?

[Guy Clark]

No. Well, she was confident, but I don't think she played games with him. I think she was scared to death of him, honestly. I mean, she dated a guy who was a model. She dated some pretty important people. That wasn't it. And she was always kind of laissez faire about it. You know, I've talked to her. I had talked to her about all these dates before, and they were meaningless. When John came around, I think it scared her a bit. And I know what really scared her was the paparazzi and being in his life. She almost didn't want that. And John never gave her the time to get to know that life. It wasn't a gradual thing. She was thrown to the dogs. Yeah. And that's when I came in. I was there in. In the beginning, basically. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And what people don't know. And it's funny you brought this up. Cause I forgot. I think we talked about this briefly at dinner. I dated Michael Bergen. Michael Bergen, which is so funny. Who people might know from Baywatch. But when I met him. Yeah, I met him at Foxwoods Casino. We were both playing poke or blackjack. He asked me out, and him and his friend. His friend's name was bj.

[Guy Clark]

He was stunning.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Stunning, stunning. I had very blonde hair back then, also still stunning. And I was very young, and BJ and him came up to me and they were talking to me, and I had freckles on my nose. And he says, you have freckles like Carolyn. And I didn't know who Carolyn was. And then BJ later, I started dating Michael. And BJ later told me that Carolyn was his ex girlfriend who had left him.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

For JFK Jr. Basically. And I didn't. You know, I think there was a lot of overlap. I think there was a lot on.

[Guy Clark]

There was overlap with him and there was overlap with Daryl Hannah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

At the same time.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

And that's why there was overlap. Yeah, it was happening at the same time, and rightfully so. They weren't connected, you know, permanently to either one, so why not?

[Rachel Yucatel]

And I had. I remember being in his apartment and he broke up with me, saying he was offered a job in LA that he was going to, which ultimately became Baywatch.

[Guy Clark]

Right, right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But I will tell you, as somebody who dated him and really liked him, I mean, he was a nice guy. We didn't date for long. He was enamored with her and was heartbroken that they had broken up. And it was hard for him to look at the paper because that was what was in the paper. And in his apartment, he had a huge birdcage. I forgot about it until this moment, that I'm telling you that he told me she had given him. And I don't know what that connection was or whatever, but they must have had a bird together or liked a bird cage or. I don't know.

[Guy Clark]

But anyways, I don't know anything about that.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So that was my only connection to them. But, yeah, to her and whatever. Okay. So. And I think they talk about her dating a guy named Mike in the. The first episode or something. And that is Michael Bergen. Or it must be.

[Guy Clark]

It has to be. It has to be because the timing is right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. So, okay, so let's go back to it. So she is this amazing, beautiful girl. And how do you become friends? Do you start spending some time with her?

[Guy Clark]

It was strange. I mean, she would call me up at Cartier and say, hey, what are you doing for lunch? Like, nothing. Let's go to lunch. I'm like, sure, I'm going to lunch with Carolyn Bissette Kennedy. Well, she wasn't Kennedy then, but the paparazzi was stalking her, so it was a safe place for her. To come to Cartier because the guards would protect her. I would protect her. She'd come in in a cloak of craziness, you know, with her big sunglasses on and, you know, hunched over so no one would see her. I'm sorry, she's six feet tall and blonde and gorgeous. Of course people are gonna see her. But she would ride the subway. Everyone thought that. That. That was just a once in a while thing. No, it was a lot. She would ride the subway lot. So she would come in. We'd go to the Omni Berkshire across the street on 52nd Street. It was a place called Coco Shin, I think the restaurant was. And we would sit in the back corner. She would face the wall, I would face out. The place was always empty. And the guy at the desk at the door knew that who she was instantly. And I was like, keep everybody away. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So you're protective of her.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, I was very protective of her right from the beginning, and she loved me for that.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Do you feel like she had a lot of close friends or. She was very. Like, you became a close friend very quickly, so.

[Guy Clark]

Right. And I. And it was odd. I mean, my sister had died that December. Let's see, December of 95. So somehow she was very compassionate for people. And I'd just come back to work after months away, and so it was interesting to meet somebody that was not only ethereal, but so compassionate. She wanted to know everything, and she was the kind of person that you could be in a room with 500 people and she'd be talking to you, and you were the only one that existed. Very rarely do you see people able to do that.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah, it's a wonderful.

[Guy Clark]

She was able to draw people in. She never lost eye contact with you when she was talking to you. Most people see her as with always with her head down. That's true. Because she was trying to avoid everybody else. Right, right. Okay. So back to the watch. She got the tank watch. She left. But she would come back and see me all the time. We'd go out for lunch. I'd go down to their apartment and hang out. And then.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Was she a big spender? Did she come in and spend all the time?

[Guy Clark]

Well, no, she had a big credit. I mean, back then it was probably $11,000 or something. And the little tank watch was $1,000. So she had a lot of money to spend. She came in, bought a strand of pearls from me, which has been photographed before in a little black dress. You can see her. She bought toe rings for her and Carol Radziwell. So that's John's cousin. His wife, Prince Radziwell's wife's Carol, who

[Rachel Yucatel]

people know from the Housewives.

[Guy Clark]

Yes. Which I never watched. But I have been in contact with her about the toe rings recently because she went. The whole crazy story. She went to a psychic about it, and it came up about the toe rings. And so I was there for these weird moments in her time. And she did tell me about the wedding because I sold her, I think, cufflinks. It was for Anthony Radziwell, not Anthony. Anthony Radziwell as the best man. He wore them, I believe, in the wedding. So I knew about the wedding. She told me she wished that she could invite me, but she only had a certain number of people she could bring because it's such a small place. I understood. I wasn't. You know, I wasn't in the family, so what did I need to go for? Speaking of which, the one day in May, so that's like a month after I met her. She brought her. She came in. I had already met her mother. For some reason, she brought her mother in to meet me one day. And whatever. I think her name was. Ann. Yeah, Ann Friedman. So she came in around Mother's Day, and she said, guy, show me what you would buy for your mother from Mother's Day. And I picked out a pair of earrings. They were like, I don't know, $1,800 or something. And they were little three gold, you know, Cartier rolling ring earrings. And she bought them for her mother. But that day, she walked from Cartier to Sutton Place where I lived, gave them to the doorman and said, these are for Guy's mother for Mother's Day because she just lost a child. Oh, my gosh. I know. See, that's the kind of person she was that nobody knows. I mean, everybody thought she was some kind of cold bitch, but she was so compassionate and so kind. I mean, I barely knew. She never met my mother. Right. Which is crazy. Wow. Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. So sorry. That made me, like, tear up.

[Guy Clark]

I know. It makes me tear up 30 years later, actually, after the wedding, she called me up and she said, guy, I had this horrible jewelry that John gave me as a wedding gift that Ari Onassis gave Jackie for their honeymoon. Can you do something with it? It's horrible. So I was like, okay. She called me at home, and this is. I don't know. She had my. You know, my home number. So it was before cell phones even. It was 1996. Right. I guess so, yeah. 96, 97. Somewhere in there. So I went down to their apartment on Northmoor, and I remember the day. I know the day because I sketched the layout of their apartment in my diary because I wanted to remember where the furniture was, because we talked about John had these weird kind of Bahamian chairs and all this stuff. Anyway, so I go down there. We went through the wedding albums. I was the first person to see the wedding albums.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

Beautiful pictures. I mean, things that no one's ever seen. I can remember. And then she brought out this jewelry, and it was a pair of earrings and a pendant. The pendant was about 15 carats.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

Okay, so this is 18. So this is a big diamond, right? In a really clunky white metal mounting and a pair of earrings, each with four diamonds, apparently in this clunky, badly made white metal mounting. She said, what do I do with this? So I sketched out some things for her. I said, this big thing. I don't know what you're going to do with this. You're never going to wear this. She said, well, you take it. I'm like, no, I don't want this. This is kind of weird. No, I don't need this. I'm never going to wear it. Hello. So I went back to Cartier and sat down with the design department and told them what I wanted. I wanted a three stone ring, a pair of studs, and three pendants, Right? One for her, one for her. Each of her sisters.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, right.

[Guy Clark]

So I tested the diamonds and they didn't test as real. And I was like, what the hell? So I called her up, I said, carolyn, I'm sorry, sweetie, these are not testing as real. She said, oh, God, just throw them away. Like. Well, I said, before I throw them away, can I take them out of the mountings and try to test them again? Because something tells me something's wrong with this, the way they look. She said, I don't care. So I opened up the mountings and retested the diamonds, and they're all like D flawless.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Clark]

They were set in lead and plated with something, and that makes it test. And that made him test. At the time, they didn't test his diamonds. So Ari must have done this to get through the tax, you know, around the.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Interesting.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, interesting.

[Rachel Yucatel]

You brought up her sisters. Now we all know about the one sister that died, Lauren. But I didn't even know there was another sister.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So who was the other sister? Did you ever get to meet?

[Guy Clark]

I only Met Lauren once. I never met the other sister. She was not that close to anybody in her family. I mean, she was in a sense, but they weren't there. Going through what she was going through.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Like someone like me who was an outsider was great and fresh because I didn't have any preconceived notions of her or demands on her. So I wasn't expecting her to be anything, you know what I'm saying? Where her family would. Anyway.

[Rachel Yucatel]

That's a good point.

[Guy Clark]

I have something to show you.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay, show me.

[Guy Clark]

So Carolyn, after she picked up her stuff, she ended up giving me one of the diamond necklaces. Now, it doesn't look like a big deal, but for a D flawless 1 carat diamond set, it's still in its original box.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Wow.

[Guy Clark]

Now, I've had this for 30 years. 30 years sitting in a vault.

[Rachel Yucatel]

That's amazing.

[Guy Clark]

Isn't that amazing?

[Rachel Yucatel]

So I want to go back to. You were talking about their apartment. So people are going to want to know what was the apartment like, how many bedrooms. You know, New York real estate's a big deal. This is gorgeous.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. I mean, it's very simple. So she gave this. So my mother wore this for years.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Wow.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. And now my mother's 102.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

And she really doesn't need big jewelry anymore. Not that this is big, but she shouldn't be in a home with, you know. Sure. Carolyn's diamond. Of course. Anyway, so her, their apartment was great. You went in, there was no doorman on Northmore. And, and took a. An elevator right up to the apartment it opened right into.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Don't you think that's interesting? They didn't have a doorman. Did they have security?

[Guy Clark]

No.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Wow.

[Guy Clark]

Nothing. So they didn't have you buzzed in?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah, but I feel like now, wouldn't you think Secret service follows former president's children?

[Guy Clark]

I'm sure they did. And I don't think he cared.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Okay.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So he, he was, he felt safe and it was not an issue.

[Guy Clark]

But remember down in Tribeca back in 1996, nobody lived there. It was no man's land. It's like when you drove, there was no traffic. Remember that?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. Okay. So you got off the apartment, the doors opened right into the apartment. There was a couple bedrooms to the right. One was Effigenio's, who was their houseman, who was Jackie's houseman that raised John, Caroline and John. Okay, okay. Effigenio, I think they called him E. G. Or something. I think you hear that in the show. And you're wondering who the hell that is. It was Effigenio, the houseman. I met him once. Maybe more than once. I forget. Anyway, so it opened up in the elevator, and you turned to the left, and the dining room and living room kind of flowed together. The kitchen was on the right. There was, like a den area off the kitchen. And then back further, facing south was their bedroom. I walked into the bedroom the first time, and there was no drapes and no shades. I'm sorry. You two are the most famous couple in the world and you have no shades on your bedroom. I love this. Are you performing for the world?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Wow.

[Guy Clark]

And Carolyn, what was their view? It just faced south. There was nothing really south of them. I don't know what's there now. I'm sure there's buildings and kinds of stuff, but, you know, if you had binoculars.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Of course. You could have a great field day watching them. So it was.

[Rachel Yucatel]

It had like three to four bedrooms, at least.

[Guy Clark]

Three.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. And seemed what, like 3,000 square feet?

[Guy Clark]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. So it was a big apartment, especially for back then.

[Guy Clark]

And I think there was another. There was another famous actor that bought that apartment after they died.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Interesting. It would be interesting to find out.

[Guy Clark]

So I have something important to tell you about that. Tell me. So when they died, of course, I didn't believe it because John and Carolyn had moved down to Vero Beach, Florida, to take flying lessons for John at Flight Safety. And I grew up wintering in Vero beach my whole life. My parents had a place there. My great uncle and his wife had a place there. So I was like, you know, a native son, basically. And I actually had a condominium next to my parents on the ocean.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

John and Caroline rented a house down the street. So since, you know, Carolyn had been kind enough to give my mother a Mother's Day gift, I connected them and they would write to each other and all this stuff. Crazy. In fact, when they died. No, actually, I take that back. When I went to the apartment the first time, my mother's notes and her Christmas cards were still on the refrigerator. And she said, that's my Vero Beach Nana. So imagine when they died. They probably thought, who the hell is this? Anyway, so they were down the street in Vero Beach. I was working at the time, so I wasn't there a lot. But I said I connected her with my mom. And they were supposed to hang out all the time because John was going to be flying. What was Carolyn going to do all day? So my mother had the Intention of taking her out and showing her the town and introducing her to people and going to lunch and all those kind of things.

[Grainger Announcer 2]

Things.

[Guy Clark]

But then like a week or two later, John's cousin died in a skiing accident. Do you remember that? He ran into a tree. I don't remember which cousin that was. I forget too. But. Right. So they left abruptly, unfortunately. And Carolyn wrote me a letter about his flying.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

And talking about, sorry I couldn't see your mom. We had to leave abruptly and this, you know, tragedy in the family.

[Rachel Yucatel]

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[Guy Clark]

This is the problem. He never finished his instrument rating for flying, so he did not know the instruments. So when you're flying in fog or rain or at night, if you don't know the instruments.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. And also there's the feelings you get when you forget what it's called. But when you're flying and you're.

[Guy Clark]

You don't know where the proximity.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right to the earth.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, exactly.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Terrible that I can't remember the name of that.

[Guy Clark]

I can either, but I get that. My parents were both pilots. My sister, my brother, stepbrother were pilots. So private pilots. So we knew the airport. We kept our plane there.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah. So. All right, let's. We're going to get to that in a minute. I just want to go back to a little bit before as people are watching this show.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

We see that they've been dating and we finally, you know, at the beginning we see that they just start to get into it and there is a big breakup because of an anonymous letter. Did you ever hear about that?

[Guy Clark]

Minimally. Okay. And I heard about it. I can't even remember who told me about it. I don't think it was Carolyn, actually. Don't. I mean, remember I came just after that point, after the letter and after they got back together. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So from your perspective, you don't know much about that. But when you were to get. When you met them, they were very much together. Do you know if you were friends with her before or after the other big fight? That they like to talk about a lot in Central Park.

[Guy Clark]

Right. I think I'll have to look at the dates. You know, it's 30 years ago. It's hard to remember exactly what you were doing.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But it's not like she talked to you about it, I guess. No, I mean, did she only speak to you kindly about him? Did she ever question their relationship or.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, in a way. She told me that he didn't understand that she was so unprepared for public life, and he did not understand her hesitation to being part of that. This was the only problem. This was the problem when she first met him. This is the problem that continued through their marriage. She really hated being thrown into the limelight. Right. I mean, can you imagine? Well, you can imagine, right? Exactly. And it happened to me, too, once in another country where I did a TV show and I was all of a sudden a superstar. And it was weird.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Well, the difference is, though, is that she becomes a superstar. Adjacent.

[Guy Clark]

Adjacent.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So she loses. So people hated her, Right. So she loses her own identity. It's almost like she has no credibility as her own person. And it's the narration of what people see. So lucky for her, she was attractive. She worked at a company that made. Gave her some credibility. She was in fashion, right?

[Guy Clark]

That's right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And she seemed mysterious, but then there was a bunch of people, and then iconic to some way. And then another side of it is people must have hated her because they were like, who is this woman off the street?

[Guy Clark]

Well, wait a minute. Yeah. And she got the most eligible man in the world. So hot. And, you know, who is this girl?

[Rachel Yucatel]

And is she good enough?

[Guy Clark]

What happened to Daryl Hannah? And you know that stuff, Right. It's kind of bizarre, right? Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And Daryl Hannah at the time was the biggest star.

[Guy Clark]

She was huge.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I think she had already done. What was it? Mermaid?

[Guy Clark]

Not Mermaid. Oh, no, Splash.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Splash. Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

That was good.

[Rachel Yucatel]

It was cute.

[Guy Clark]

And.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But I will say that Carolyn. I would like Carolyn more than Hannah, of course, but he has a type. I mean, they're very similar.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, definitely has a type.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay, go back to her personality a little bit more, because I'm curious, because she is so mysterious. Was she funny? Was she smart? Was she thoughtful? I mean, she was obviously thoughtful about the thing with your mother, but thoughtful. Like, did she like to talk to you about deep conversations?

[Guy Clark]

Absolutely. She would come in, I'd put her in my little office, and I would forget that Cardi had existed. And everybody knew not to bother me when she was in the store because People would come in, the king of so and so and all these famous people. And whoever it was, just forget about it. Let the manager take care of it, and I'll take care of Carolyn because she was my focus and she was my person. You know what I'm saying? And what's funny is it's very much the same as when I first met you. I walked up to you and said, I don't care what you did before today or who you were. You're my friend, starting right now. I did the same thing with her.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I remember that conversation.

[Guy Clark]

It's the only two times I've ever said that to anybody. Anyway, so she was very thoughtful, of course, as you know, but highly intelligent and very insightful. But also, there was a part of her that was very girly. Like, she came in one day all aflutter because her hair was practically white and she had a hat on and glasses. And she sat down, she said, okay, is this just too blonde or what? And I'm like, what are you going for here, honey? And she's like. I said, is this Marilyn Monroe? I mean, it was that white. It was like. It was crazy because in the beginning of the show, they show her appropriately, with a lot of dark roots and just kind of blonde, dirty. Right, right. And then it gets blonder and blonder and blonder. Well, at some point, she just goes totally Marilyn. And she was completely freaked out, and she was so mad at her hairdresser, and she wanted to change. She wanted to know if I had a hairdresser for her, that it could be secretive and all this kind of stuff.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh. Do you think that Jackie or John had an influence on how she looked back then?

[Guy Clark]

Well, she never met Jackie, and Jackie was also my client.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. Oh, I didn't realize that they never met.

[Guy Clark]

No, they never met.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So he. I remember in the scene. So maybe this is incorrect in timing, he says, I wish you could meet my mother, but we're not ready, or whatever.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So then. So Jackie dies before they even ever met?

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, that's incredible.

[Guy Clark]

Okay. I don't think they ever met. I never heard they met. So. Funny thing is, Jackie came in. Let's see, she died in 94, didn't she? When did you die?

[Rachel Yucatel]

94.

[Guy Clark]

That's 94. Okay. Okay. So they weren't hot and heavy enough by 94. Interesting to have Jackie meet Carolyn.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, that's good information then. Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Because it seems like they weren't hot and heavy till basically 90, 596. Right. And so when did they get married? What Was the date?

[Rachel Yucatel]

96.

[Guy Clark]

96, right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

September 1996.

[Guy Clark]

September, right. So I met that. I met her in April. Now, I used to go to George all the time. Like, I'd go over there for no reason and just because she would tell me, she's coming up there, can I see her? Because what is she gonna do at George? John always.

[Rachel Yucatel]

You mean. When you say George, you mean George, the magazine? Yeah. So they had an office or something.

[Guy Clark]

Well, it was huge. Okay, so Cartier was 52nd and 5th, and George was on 6th Avenue and, like, 51st street or so I would go there all the time. I would just love the.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And did he. I forget what George is.

[Guy Clark]

So George magazine was a political magazine,

[Rachel Yucatel]

but they aimed to make it a little bit more sexy.

[Guy Clark]

Right. And they put Sidney Crawford on the COVID in, like, a uniform.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. I remember that.

[Guy Clark]

That was, like, the big deal.

[Rachel Yucatel]

How many years did that last for? Not long, Right?

[Guy Clark]

Four, maybe.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Okay.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So something like that. It couldn't continue after he died or.

[Guy Clark]

And it was struggling. Before they died, it was struggling. And so the interesting thing is I'd go there all the time. I'd show up and John would be running back and forth, you know, through the lobby area where I'm sitting at now. You know, you couldn't just go up there anyway. You had to, you know, be called up and all that stuff. And Rosemary Terenzio, John's assistant, was always there. She was lovely. She always helped me. And she and Carolyn were friendly. In fact, Carolyn gave her that famous leopard coat that she bought, like, at a thrift store.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

And I think was just sold. Rosemarie just sold a bunch of that stuff at auction and did very well. So there's a lot of that stuff coming out now. Like, they're reissuing. I heard that Prada's supposed to be reissuing some of the clothes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

Did you hear that?

[Rachel Yucatel]

No, I didn't.

[Guy Clark]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I heard that there's copies made now. Wow. So why not?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Guy Clark]

So.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And you had said, just briefly, that you had met Jackie Onassis.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, she was a client of mine.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. Before you knew Carolyn?

[Guy Clark]

Yes, before. Because that was 90. She died in 94. She came in to see me right before she died.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So what's interesting about her is in this show, they portray her as being very protective of John and not liking anyone he dates. But from what I remember reading about her, she just seemed, like the most wonderful Soft woman. So what was she really like?

[Guy Clark]

First of all, she spoke very softly and with a slight lisp.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Interesting.

[Guy Clark]

And I think Naomi Watt really got that right. I don't know how she did it.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Because, I mean, she did a fabulous job.

[Rachel Yucatel]

It's so funny you say that. I heard it almost as, like a slight accent. I didn't. I don't know that it's a lisp.

[Guy Clark]

It's a lisp. It's a very gentle lisp. Wow. So Jackie came in to see me right before she died. I mean, it wasn't right before. It was in the 94ish. I can't remember the date. I have it somewhere. And she brought in a tank watch. Another tank watch. Another watch, Right. And I remember turning it over and it said Patrick and a date on it, like 1964, 66. I don't remember the date. And I thought, what the hell is this? So when I got home, I called my mother because she's the omnipotent one, right? And I said, who is Patrick? She's. Oh, that was the son who died after three days. So Jackie brought it into service, the watch, to make sure. And she told me she never wore it.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Huh.

[Guy Clark]

She said I'd never wear this watch. And I thought, this is strange, right? Right. It's a beautiful tank watch. It's probably famous at this point. And I don't know where that watch went. I'm sure Caroline has it somewhere. But that's a watch I don't think anybody's ever seen. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow. So, okay. And then what also was John like? I mean, here's the interesting thing about John. Listen. We all know him as, like, the most attractive man we've almost ever seen, besides the actor that now plays him.

[Guy Clark]

Hello. He's gonna go places.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Wow. Which, by the way, shows you married. It shows what a good actor he is, though, because when you see him, like in his Instagram, he looks totally different. He wears his hair.

[Guy Clark]

Acting role.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I know, it's kind of amazing because he does such a good job of really pulling this off. But the interesting thing for me that I see as an outsider is that he was so good looking and to so many people. And in the show, you see how powerful he is. He's the son of, you know, this famous, gorgeous, powerful man who was killed and this beautiful woman and all this stuff that happens with Marilyn Monroe and blah, blah, blah. And he's dated famous women. But he can't get his shit together in terms of having his own credibility. He can't pass the bar forever. He can't kind of get his shit together with a magazine.

[Guy Clark]

He was that way in boarding school.

[Rachel Yucatel]

In his head, I think that he felt like he was the fuck up. And Caroline was this straight laced, smart woman married to this smart guy.

[Guy Clark]

Right, exactly.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And he was like the loser. I mean, I hate to say the loser, but you know, the black sheep

[Guy Clark]

a little bit together. And he cared more about being a normal person. Right, that's. And I think that comes across pretty well in the show. Now, what's interesting is one of those times that I was in their apartment, Carolyn said to me, I said, asked her about what did she think about him in politics? Because she's, you know, just running a magazine that, you know, that was. Had a low circulation and whatever, wasn't a big deal, but people bought it because of him. Right. And she said, listen, John told her. So she's saying this to me. She said, john told me that I could go on Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and run for president, still win. Now that's a line Trump stole. Wow.

[Rachel Yucatel]

That's true.

[Guy Clark]

Now Carolyn told me that in 1996. Wow. Trump's adapted that, you know, in 2016.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So John and her knew that. Well, it seems like he knew that he was destined for something and wanted to try his own version.

[Guy Clark]

He was trying to be his own man first.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But he also knew that they knew

[Guy Clark]

they were going into politics. And she would have been the best first lady ever. Imagine how the world would be different if those two had. If he had been president and she'd been the First Lady. Now, mind you, there's always the woman behind the man. And in this case, I think that's what it would have been. I think Carolyn would have been the strong force behind him to keep him. To keep him on the straight and narrow and keep him focused and all that stuff.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Although inside he was built for it. I mean, he really was. Of course he was built for it. He may not have been grown up in terms of politics and law on paper because he wasn't that good at it. But I think internally this was a guy who was built for more and knew it, but wanted to create his own path.

[Guy Clark]

Exactly.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Which made it really sad. It is sad because he believed in what he was doing but didn't follow through.

[Guy Clark]

And it's the opposite of Carolyn. Think about that. She was exactly the opposite of that. She wasn't built for this and was forced into it, whereas John is forced into it and didn't want to be really I don't think he wanted that.

[Rachel Yucatel]

That's a really good point. So you have a lot of letters with you.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, I do.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Now, this is a time when people wrote letters. I mean, I can't even remember the last time I bought a stamp. I don't even know how much stamp

[Guy Clark]

I write thank you notes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

See, I love that.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I did write you a thank you note.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, you did. I still have. Okay. So interesting enough for their wedding gift because of course I knew about the wedding.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

And I kept my mouth shut, as I have for 30 years. Right. I thought, what am I going to get them? So I called my mother and she said, get them engraved stationary with their names on it. So here's an exact. This is their stationary.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh. And this is the one you got them.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. And I have the engraving plate. What did I do with it? Oh, here it is.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

So.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And it's Cartier.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, of course it's Cartier.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Clark]

Gorgeous. So no one's ever touched this, Rachel, but I can let you touch it because you're my girl. Okay, hold on.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I have cleaned.

[Guy Clark]

Sorry, it's taking me a moment.

[Rachel Yucatel]

No, it's okay. So tell me what this is.

[Guy Clark]

This is the engraving plate that made the stationary. Now, this is their.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

Isn't that cool? Wow. All right, so this is a blank one, which I happen to have because I paid for it. But the best part is, here's the thank you note.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, can I see her handwriting?

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, she's so chic.

[Guy Clark]

So she wrote it to me at Cartier even though she knew my home address. And those come in later. I have all kinds of letters from her.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my God. Incredible.

[Guy Clark]

Isn't that great?

[Rachel Yucatel]

So what are the. So now, in this day and age when there was no phones.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So you had to get a hold of.

[Guy Clark]

Cell phones were minimal. Okay, so think about this. 1996. Right. Okay.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I don't remember when cell phones came around.

[Guy Clark]

Well, people had them. But she had one, but she had to change it, like.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, all the time.

[Guy Clark]

That's right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay. I was in college, 1996. So, okay, I had a cell phone then. I remember. But you didn't really know how to use them.

[Guy Clark]

They were hot all the time.

[Rachel Yucatel]

It was a nightmare.

[Guy Clark]

So I would call her at George, or I'd call her at home.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Got it.

[Guy Clark]

And I'd call her on her cell, but she had to change her number all the time. I don't Know who gave her numbers out? It was weird. Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So, I mean, I think people still do that to this day.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But the kind of things you guys would write back and forth were what, like how you were doing?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, yeah. I mean. Here. I don't know. Let's see what I can find here. Sorry.

[Rachel Yucatel]

That's okay.

[Guy Clark]

She would come in to see me. Here's a note that she would write on my stationery at my desk. I was off that day. Here, look at it. Read it.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Dear Guy, I stopped in today, hoping you might be in. Thank you for your sweet note. I would love to see you for lunch. Whenever you have some time, call me and we'll make a time and date. XOX Carolyn. Beautiful.

[Guy Clark]

I know it makes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Isn't it interesting later. Isn't it interesting that you stood. That you kept these things? I mean, do you keep every note you ever get?

[Guy Clark]

No.

[Rachel Yucatel]

No.

[Guy Clark]

But what's weird is, you know, so you meet somebody and you. I said this to you the other day at dinner. Do you remember? I said to both you and Dan, and I met each one of you. I knew you were gonna be my really good friends. And I have a lot of friends, as you do, and we don't make a lot of time. We don't have time for new people. Right. I loved you two instantly, the way I loved her. That's a rare thing in life, to be bonded with somebody for whatever the reason. Doesn't matter what the reason is, but to know instantly that you love somebody and you're gonna cherish them and support them and protect them. Yeah. That's how I felt about her. And so I feel about you, too. Oh, I love you so much. Yeah, I love you, too.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So you told me that she wrote you once about feeling nervous about flying.

[Guy Clark]

Yes. Let me see if I can find which letter that is. I have so many here.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Take your time.

[Guy Clark]

Here, you want to read this one? Yeah. Now, this is written to me on Sutton Place.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I have my glasses for this. This time I have my glasses. I'm always borrowing yours. So it has their address on it. It says January 10, 1998. So they were married for two years. This was right before they died. Six months before they die, you get this letter. January 10, 1998. Dear Guy, thank you for your lovely card and contribution. You have been so thoughtful and supportive over the last two years. It means a great deal to me. I hope your holiday season, although always difficult, was joyous for you. See you soon for lunch. XOX Carolyn.

[Guy Clark]

Okay, here's another One. You got to read this one. This is a little bit about the flying.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

These have been in a safe for 30 years. Wow. Nobody's ever seen these.

[Rachel Yucatel]

March 18, 1998. I love how she has her address on here. It's like, you know, because it's so private.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. Interesting to me.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah, right, of course, of course. Dear Guy, hello. With an exclamation. I ran into your wonderful Joey at Chanel the other day. Oh, got it. He was lovely and so handsome. Anyhow, I have been out of town sporadically for about eight weeks. Currently we are in Vero beach, but I have been in Miami for almost the entire first week of our stay. John is working on his private pilot's license, and our close friends were just married in South Beach. Thus the excursion to Miami. I'm leaving this week unexpectedly and will not be able to visit your mother. I hope she and your whole family are well and happy. I'll call you when I'm back in New York. See you soon, xox. Carolyn. I love how she does the xox, by the way.

[Guy Clark]

It's always the same, which I've always done, too, which is interesting.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I'm going to start doing it now myself.

[Guy Clark]

So that. That's probably the only letter she ever wrote that mentions the fawns flying. Okay, interesting. But it also mentions the fact that she had to leave Vero Beach. She didn't say why. I knew why. Because it happened. Okay. So I have all these. All these papers. I mean, here's a. A Christmas card. But it's a cheesy Christmas card. It's not like something fancy.

[Rachel Yucatel]

She probably went into Duane Reade or whatever.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, if that's

[Rachel Yucatel]

1997. Dear Guy, have simply the most wonderful Christmas and New Year. Thank you for your support and kindness. See you soon, xox. Carolyn. All right, let's talk about. As it gets closer to when she dies, does she start to disappear more or you're still seeing her just as much?

[Guy Clark]

No, I retired from Cartier. Okay, so that was. Let's see. When did they die?

[Rachel Yucatel]

They died July 16, 1999.

[Guy Clark]

Okay. So I left Cartier. I think it was June 1999. So right before.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right before.

[Guy Clark]

And so what'd you leave to do, by the way? I went. I wanted to be an interior designer. Or actually, I wrote to Carolyn a letter, and I said, I'm leaving Cartier. It was hard at that point, at that point in 1999, to get a hold of her. Okay. We had to do clandestine things, you know, meet at her apartment or go to the restaurant or meet at George. But it was very difficult because she had to get a new phone like every three days. It was crazy. So I would write her notes, she would write me notes and we'd go back and forth and I wrote her a lot. So I moved up to my country house and I didn't know what I was going to do. So I wrote her a letter saying I'm either going to be an interior designer or an antique dealer or some combination of the two, you know, Perfect thing for some gay guy in his 30s. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And you had made some money at Cartier?

[Guy Clark]

I'd made a lot of money at Cartier. I'd been there 11 years. I was a top dog for a long time and made plenty of money and had a country house and now

[Rachel Yucatel]

had a good Rolodex of people that maybe you could work on the house.

[Guy Clark]

Exactly. And so I sent out 10 letters and I got three jobs immediately.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, great.

[Guy Clark]

So I was on a roll. And she and I talked about me doing their house in Connecticut. They wanted to move to New King. I think they'd found property. And we talked about it and that's as far as we got. So they pass away. And I was sure that she was like, either not on the plane or she somehow escaped it because she couldn't have died. I wasn't thinking about John, to be honest with you. I wasn't that close to John. I only met him like four times at parties and in the apartment and stuff. But I wasn't that close to him. I mean, I never had his phone number.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Well, wait. I want to get to the moment you find out about it. But hold on. When was the last time you spoke to her? Right before it. You think?

[Guy Clark]

Think it was. It wasn't the day of, but a couple days before.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And through letter or you were on the phone or.

[Guy Clark]

I spoke her on the phone and we talked about New Canaan and me decorating the house. And she wasn't sure what John's thought was because I. There was a house next door to me that belonged to like the Isley Brothers or something on. On like hundreds of acres and had it on his own heliport. And I said, you guys should buy this house next to me. It's in the middle of nowhere. No one will ever find you. John can land a plane. There's a private airport, you know, a couple miles away. There's a heliport on the property. No one will ever find you. The house is huge and fabulous and I Went and looked at it for them, actually.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, it was next door to me. But you couldn't see it. It was like huge. Right? I was on, I don't know, 20 acres and this was on hundreds and hundreds of acres on the side of a mountain. Anyway, I'd written her all this, but in the process of writing her all these things, I said, come up if you need to get away. Because there was problems. I knew there was problems. She told me that they were fighting a lot about just stupid stuff. What I think they were fighting about is that she didn't want to be the sidekick in this sideshow. It was a sideshow. He didn't see it that way. He was used to it. He was like, you know, programmed. She didn't get it. So I think that's what the fight was normally about.

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[Guy Clark]

And all these letters we wrote to each other almost every day. Back and forth, back and forth. I didn't save a lot of them. I have a few, but I didn't save a lot of them. I don't know, some of them I did and some of them I didn't.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So you were very close? Close enough that if somebody saw the letters it was intimate in terms of you guys were close and she was telling you her feelings. And did she ever talk about. I mean, I don't know. It sounds like she had been on the plane with him before, but did she ever talk about flying in general or that he.

[Guy Clark]

She told me once that she knew that Jackie didn't want John to take flying lessons. I don't think he ever took until she died. Got it that you can check that. But I think that's true. Right. Anyway, so there was all these important letters back and forth and they died. I was. I remember.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Where were you?

[Guy Clark]

I was at home on Sutton Place in New York. And I thought, this can't be true. But then I waited for days and days. I thought they would find her floating and she'd be on a raft or something. And I couldn't believe it. After they died. I went to Savannah on a friend's private plane to look at a house that a mutual friend had bought and was gonna need a decorator. So we all flew down. So there's two couples, a bunch of staff, and me on this private G5 or whatever it was. And I came back from Savannah from the weekend, and I had just come in the door, and the buzzer rings from downstairs. And I answered the phone, you know, and the doorman says to me, richard, blah, blah, blah's here. And I thought, oh, must be Richard, the chef from my friend whose house I just left, right? Because he was on the plane or something, or he was in the house. I don't remember where he was. But I knew the chef lived a block past me, and it was all within walking distance. So I said, oh, send him up. I must have left something on the plane or whatever. So the doorbell rings. I answer the door. Now, mind you, my suitcases are still sitting in the hallway, right? I just walked in the door, and there's this big, bearded older man standing there. I'm like, who are you? He said, I'm Richard Goodenow. I'm senior editor of the National Enquirer. I said, holy fuck. Okay. He said, you know what this is about? I said, it has to be about Carolyn.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And at this point, they had found her body. And you knew she was dead?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, I knew she was. I knew they were dead. And I said, okay, come on in. I mean, how stupid of me, right? I should have shut my. Shut the door in the guy's face. But I'm glad I didn't, because there's a reason. So I let him in, and we walk in, we sit down in my living room, which, you know, an apartment was pretty big. It was like 40ft long on Sutton Place. And he sits down, he says, I just want you to know. And I said, what are you doing here? Like, what do you want? And he's like, I just want you to know we're going to press with your love affair with Carolyn Bessette. I said, what? You know, I'm a gay man. Look at these pictures. Look at this apartment. This is a gay man's apartment, you know? He said, not according to your letters. I said, what are you talking about? Wow. And he said, I have all your letters that you wrote to her.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Isn't that fascinating that she saved them?

[Guy Clark]

She saved them. I mean, she saved all of them. I said, what are you talking about? And he pulled out from this beaten old briefcase this thick file he had faxes And I said, let me see those. He gave me a couple to look at. Because I think he was afraid I was gonna tear them up.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah, sure.

[Guy Clark]

And I looked at it, and I knew the fax number. Cause it was their apartment. It was their apartment.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So who do you think gave them this information, for example?

[Guy Clark]

Effigino? No, not in my wildest dreams. He loved John. I don't think he would have done anything. But, you know, there was a moment in time where it was out in circulation. That she had an affair with someone who was probably an antique dealer. You can research this. It comes up. That was me.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

Right? Is that bizarre?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, I love that for you.

[Guy Clark]

Isn't that juicy? I know. That's why I've kept my mouth shut for 30 years.

[Rachel Yucatel]

You're the antique dealer she was sleeping with.

[Guy Clark]

Is that funny?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, well, that clears the.

[Guy Clark]

It clears it all up.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Clears it all up for all the people that really thought she was cheating.

[Guy Clark]

But in one, she and he had the note that said, I'm either gonna be an antique dealer or an interior designer. And it said, in that note, please come up to my country house. Get away from John if you need to. I'm always here for you. I love you.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So to the outsider reading it, it

[Guy Clark]

could look like a love to anybody reading it. I loved her intimately. Without, you know, I mean, like your best friend. What you would do for somebody. Right. I always wanted to protect her. And so that's why I've kept my mouth shut for 30 years. I've been protecting her all this time.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah. So what did that feel like when you finally found out that she was on the plane and her sister and John? I mean, were you angry? Were you sad? Were you. I mean, obviously you couldn't believe it.

[Guy Clark]

You know what's weird is I consulted a psychic about it because I was traumatized. I was. Sorry I'm crying. I was completely traumatized. And I just went to the country and just stayed there and grew a beard for a while because I was traumatized. Because we had this whole life forward that we had planned about and talked about, you know, him running for president, me decorating their house. I mean, these are like big things in somebody's life, right? And to be with your. I mean, we weren't best friends. Carol Radziwell was her best friend. But I was close enough to know intimate things about their life and be part of their life to a point where I knew I had to protect them afterwards. Yeah. And so what I said to this guy, this editor, I said, I tell you what, I have more important notes from her. To me, one even mentions John's flying. You just saw one of them. And I said, how about this? When the Bessetts and the Friedmans, that's Carolyn's mother and her stepfather. Sorry, When. When they're done suing the Kennedys for wrongful death of their two children. Right. And that's settled, I will come back to you and I will tell you my truth and I will tell you the real side of the story. And you can use my letters and I'll tell you the real story. It's far more interesting from her point of view than mine. Nobody knows me. Nobody cares. Right. Who cares about Guy Clark from Cartier? You know, some washed up salesman that's a decorator. Nobody cares.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. And you think her side of the story was more like her connection with you was still something normal, something that was her own?

[Guy Clark]

What I'm telling you would have been in the National Enquirer. Yeah, okay, but.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And he never came back.

[Guy Clark]

Oh, yes, he came back. I don't know when. It was a year later or so, the moment that cleared. The next day my phone rang. I saw it come up, National Enquirer. And I picked up the phone, I said, Mr. Goodenough. And he's like, yes. I said, you can go fuck yourself. And hung up on it. Him. Never heard from him again. Wow. And what's interesting is my client at Cartier owned the International Enquirer.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

I never told the Popes that I was involved in that kind of mess.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right, right.

[Guy Clark]

I don't think they ever knew.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah. Okay, let's go to the series for a second. There's one more episode that's coming out. Well, now that this episode is out, it will all the. It'll be five, right? There's a total of five. I think there's five. So there's going to be one more that's come out.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

The series starts with them getting into the plane.

[Guy Clark]

Do you remember? Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So we know. Well, we obviously know what happens, but we see the sister. We see her, she's running late that day. She was getting her nails done or something.

[Guy Clark]

She wasn't just getting her nails done.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Tell me.

[Guy Clark]

She also went to see her salesperson and Bergdorf's who was diagnosed with cancer, and she went to console her. Wow. I don't remember how I know that. Huh. I don't know whether she called me and told me that. I don't remember how I Know that.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So she was running late, which is what a lot of people say is why they started flying in the dark.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. Lauren was also late. I heard the sister. She was coming from Wall Street. Don't forget. John had his foot in a cast. I forgot what he broke. And when. Something silly like touch football or something. But he was in a cast with crutches, flying a plane. Now, you know, you steer with your feet. I didn't know.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But there's levers. You're right.

[Guy Clark]

Those are rudders. So that's not easy to steer with a cast on your foot. I mean, who flies with a cast on their foot?

[Rachel Yucatel]

No. Well. And also not such a great flyer. And listen, for people that are listening that don't know the story. It was not a long flight. No, but it was. The sun was going down.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

They were running out of time. And the tragedies, you know, all these different avenues converge.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

To make it that everyone's running late.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And there is a time crunch and they need to get there. There's a wedding the next day and

[Guy Clark]

I mean, she was held up in Friday night traffic, you know, it's a nightmare.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right. And I remember. I guess we all heard the next morning, right? I mean, is that when it happened? I remember waking up and hearing about it. I was driving somewhere in New Jersey. I must have been going. I don't know where the hell I was going, but I was in a car. And I heard it on the radio.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. I heard it on there.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And I thought. And they hadn't found their bodies yet. And I thought.

[Guy Clark]

Took a long time.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah. I thought that that can't be true. They must be somewhere floating and they're gonna find them. Because you don't think that they were. That this curse is really a curse. Right. You're like, oh, it happened to a couple of the Kennedys. There can't be this real curse that's going to happen to him that we all know through the paper and we see him every day. And to hear the finality of it, that they were all found in their seats in. At the bottom of the ocean was terrible. And to, you know, it. That consumed. I mean, me as an outsider, I think everybody. You wanted to know how it happened, why it happened, how far into the flight.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel Yucatel]

All those things.

[Guy Clark]

Things.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And it didn't seem like they knew too much of what was going on. It seemed like they slowly ebbed into the water and didn't realize it.

[Guy Clark]

But, you know, my mother, who's a pilot, said that there's no way a person without instrument rating could know how to fly in dense fog over the water. There's just no way, because there's no. Think about it. Over the water. There's no. No places. There's no markers. Thank you. There's no lights. There's no markers. There's nothing. So, I mean, you might be able to fly over the fog in a populated area where you can see lights and maybe a Runway or all that stuff eventually, but there was nothing.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But also, you need that horizon line.

[Guy Clark]

There was no way, because you don't

[Rachel Yucatel]

know when you're turning. I mean, you just have no idea where the horizon is. And that's why that instrument exists, because pilots are known for getting out of sorts.

[Guy Clark]

That's right. That's right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So I'm really excited is the wrong word. I'm looking forward to seeing this last episode because I want to see how they do it. I mean, I think that I'm not

[Guy Clark]

looking forward to it. You're not? No. I mean, I'm gonna watch it, but I'm gonna be prepared because I know I have to relive this again. And it's hard. It's hard, you know, for anybody losing a close friend. It's hard. And especially someone who is in the public eye and that you protected on purpose all the time. And I've been protecting her personally with all this stuff all this time.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Well, it's interesting. I wonder if it's hard to. Because you knew her so intimately, which probably felt really sacred to you.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And now I feel like the world is getting to know them. Like, if you look on Instagram now.

[Guy Clark]

Exactly. They're all over the place.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Everybody's talking about not only the show, but bringing up older pictures of them and times and moments and. And videos. And then you see memes of girls in the office wearing new outfits right now and pretending to be her. And men who. I'm gonna dress. My. I opened my Instagram today, and it was a me, a TikTok or something. I'm trying to dress my husband now, like John Kennedy Jr. And then it was this frumpy guy who was putting on a tie and, you know, and girls dressing like her. And it's. It's great. I mean, like, that's so great, this resurgence of attention.

[Guy Clark]

I agree.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But it must make you a little sad, jealous, angry.

[Guy Clark]

It's just weird. Yeah, it's just weird. I mean, I appreciate it. I mean, just think about the minimalism that they both worked.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

I mean, they. I mean, Think about both of them. John was running around in a T shirt and shorts most of the time, you know, and a cap. And she was always in the most simple Prada clothes. I remember she came into the store one time and she was all in Prada. And when she came into my office, she said. I said, oh, I love this outfit. You know, it's black and white. That's all she ever wore. Or tan and black. And she said, oh, God, Prada is the best. You've gotta go into Prada. Anything you want, I'll get for you. Anything you want. And I never went in. I would never take advantage of somebody. Imagine somebody saying, going to Prada, I'll buy you anything you want.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I know.

[Guy Clark]

She probably got a discount or something on that, right?

[Rachel Yucatel]

Sure, sure. What feels unfair or invented out of the show? Anything to you? Cause I did see at the beginning of every show, it says some scenes have been changed.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of the conversations. Of course, nobody knew.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Right? Of course.

[Guy Clark]

And so that's invented. That guy, whatever his name is, the actor is so good for John. I mean, he nailed it. He looks like him. I mean, he worked out a lot to beef himself up, and he took elocution lessons, all that kind of stuff, and acting lessons. I mean, he really.

[Rachel Yucatel]

But the aura, like both of them, the aura of what they represent, which is hard. I don't even know if an actor do.

[Guy Clark]

They did that. They nailed it. They nailed it. And there are no videos. I think there's only one video of them at an event, like, in Los Angeles, together. Almost no videotapes of her anywhere. Did you know that?

[Rachel Yucatel]

No, I didn't know that.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, that's why it was hard for the actress to get.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I mean, they've been replaying the videotape of them fighting in Central park, but it's grainy.

[Guy Clark]

But that was.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I know. And maybe I was gonna say there's video of her walking out of the door when they get married, but. But it's not a video. I guess it's a still.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, it's a still when coming down the stairs, he's a still.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I think in our imaginations, we've just created.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. So, you know, I went through all those photographs, and there's some. There's one that sticks out in my head, and I'll just share it with you because I've never told anybody. Effigenio, the houseman who raised John, is on his knees putting cufflinks into John's shirt cuff. Right. His Shirt is open, so you see his torso, and he's in boxer shorts, and he's looking up at him like, I raised this man. The most beautiful photograph. No one's ever seen it.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. So if anybody's seen that, where was that photograph?

[Rachel Yucatel]

In their house or something?

[Guy Clark]

It was in. Carolyn showed me. In a book. Yeah, the books. When, the moment they came out, I went through them with her to look at them for the first time, and.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, it was part of their wedding.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, it was the wedding album. So anybody who's seen those wedding albums knows that photograph, but nobody else has ever seen it. Yeah. The other thing that's interesting is she kept scrapbooks of everything ever written about her.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Oh, no way.

[Guy Clark]

Which I thought was fabulous. And I said to her, what are you keeping this for? This is, like, so not you.

[Rachel Yucatel]

She said, it's very commoner of the.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, it's very commoner. Right. Like, things that, like, I'm saving. Right. And she said, no, because when we're really old, I want to look back at this and giggle.

[Rachel Yucatel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Because this might not be funny now, but we're going to want to look back at this later. Right. God, that breaks my heart that she never had that opportunity. Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

All right, last question for you. What do you want people to remember about her? Separate from him and separate from the tragedy.

[Guy Clark]

Wow, that's a hard question. I think the most important thing is that she was just a girl that was thrust into the limelight, unknowing, unaware, and kind of unprotected. Right. She did the best she could. She really tried. She wasn't a drug fiend. She wasn't an alcoholic. You know, they've tried everything at some point to make her out as this bad person. I never saw her that way. She was always graceful, kind, innocent, but also fiercely smart and intuitive. And I think some of that comes across in the show, but they'll never get the exact person that she is. They're doing a decent job, though. Yeah.

[Rachel Yucatel]

It's just, you know that old saying, only the good die young. It's like, in one sense, thank God that that's when they died at that moment in time. Because they will forever be revered and stay young. Stay young, stay beautiful, stay somewhat mysterious and stay iconic.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel Yucatel]

And so, as tragic as it is and how they could have been president and first lady and all these things, you know, they will always be remembered as this beautiful, beautiful couple.

[Guy Clark]

It's true. And that's the way I tried to remember them. I feel like she's always with me, which is interesting, you know, and I've kept her secret so long, I hope she doesn't mind now. I think it's okay.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I'm sure now that everyone's talking about

[Guy Clark]

it, everyone's talking about it. It's my turn to let a little bit out so they know the truth.

[Rachel Yucatel]

So they know the real her. Well, Guy, thank you so much for being here on the live. I love you.

[Guy Clark]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

[Rachel Yucatel]

I love you and I'm gonna have you on to talk about other stuff, but this was, you know, so timely and it's so important to let people know who the real Carolyn Bessette Kennedy is, because everyone wants to know it's true. Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five star rating and review. You can support the show by joining our [e-mail] misunderstanding with Rachel Yukatel. Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out? Email [e-mail] that's spelled M I S S. Understood. Thank you so much and I'll see you next time. Weight Watchers now offers access to affordable GLP1s Weight Watchers has everything I need

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