What It Means To Be A Man | Therapist Trey Tucker Explains

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

Episode: What It Means To Be A Man | Therapist Trey Tucker Explains
Air Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Rachel Uchitel
Guest: Trey Tucker (therapist, author of Tough Enough)

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Overview

This episode delves into masculinity, male psychology, father-son dynamics, trauma, attachment styles, and the challenges men face in modern society. Therapist Trey Tucker shares practical insights—from his personal journey and clinical experience—on what it means to "be a man", how upbringing shapes identity, why men struggle with vulnerability, and why both tough love and self-sacrifice are critical to healthy masculinity. Rachel and Trey dissect contemporary misunderstandings between men and women, offer relationship advice, and discuss cultural trends—from gentle parenting to “alpha men” like Andrew Tate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trey Tucker’s Background & Motivation for Focusing on Men

[03:18–05:55]

• Trey started in business, shifted to teaching/coaching, then became a therapist after realizing fulfillment was missing.
• Personal struggle: "Rejection was the biggest one for me." (Trey, [04:37])
• Emphasizes that rejection—not death—is people’s top fear, especially the pain of “opening up and allowing somebody to know the real me and then getting rejected because of it.”
• He terms early life hardships as “injuries”—resonating more with men than "trauma."

The Impact of Parenting and Early Childhood

[06:24–08:53]

• “The first 10 years of our life is the most impressionable. Think of our brain… as like, really wet cement. So whatever you put in that wet cement, it’s going to stick…” (Trey, [06:28])
• Parents inevitably leave marks on their children, positive or negative.
• Rachel relates: Parenting anxiety (“Is this gonna send you to therapy later?”) and reflecting on generational changes in what’s considered traumatic.

Fathers, Sons, and the "Dad Wound"

[12:00–13:45]

• Trey: Men constantly wonder, “Dad, do you like… cherish me? Do I have the right stuff? Am I on the right track?” Gaps in these answers leave men (and women) feeling hollow, seeking validation or fulfillment elsewhere.
• Rachel shares how losing her father as a teen affected her self-worth and relationships.

Tough Love vs. Enabling

[14:05–16:22]

• Trey: “When you do something for your kid that they could do themselves, the message you’re sending them is, you can’t do this. I don’t believe in you.” ([14:05])
• Advocates for letting kids struggle (mildly) with support: “Loving them [is] standing next to them, but letting them go through that hard stuff, like in a weight room.” ([17:36])
• Rachel’s take: Resourcefulness is resilience—“You could drop me off naked in Ghana… and I’d figure out how to get home with a million dollars in my pocket.” ([16:06])

What Men Seek in Therapy & Gender Differences

[17:46–19:20]

• Men seek “joy, peace, fulfillment”—not just happiness.
• Therapy for men often involves less talk (“Men speak ~4,000 words/day; women ~40,000”) and sometimes alternative methods.
• “Talk therapy works really well for women… Men… get repulsed by that.” (Trey, [19:20])

Trauma Therapy Tools: EMDR & Neurofeedback

[20:23–25:04]

• EMDR: Uses eye movements to help the brain “put a timestamp” on trauma—making it less intrusive ("It doesn’t erase the trauma. It just puts a timestamp”). ([22:52])
• Neurofeedback: A brain training method for trauma, ADHD, anxiety, depression—rewarding the brain for desired patterns (“When your brain does the wrong thing, it cuts off the show… When your brain does the right thing, it brings the show back up.” [23:50])
• On psychedelics (ketamine, mushrooms): “They can be a Kickstarter… but you still have to go through the actual process of digging out some of those rocks in the cement…” ([25:17])

The Problem of "Stuckness," Purpose, and Masculinity

[25:45–31:25]

• Many young men are stuck due to loss of purpose, too much coddling, and lack of challenge.
• “We’re meant to… climb a mountain and do a quest.” (Trey, [29:48])
• Difference between the “safe crowd” of avoidant men (risk-averse, fearful) and the “Tate crowd” (hyper-masculine, performative).
• To "man up": “Do the hard thing and the uncomfortable thing… Your brain is going to grow when you do something that you absolutely don’t like.” ([30:51])
• Relational manliness: “A man… has to be self sacrificial and to serve because that’s what we’re on the earth to do.” ([31:37])

De-coding Men for Women

[32:27–36:10]

• Most misread male trait: “We are deathly afraid of disappointing you… When we feel like we either have failed or we might fail, that causes us to shut down… that shutdown is often misread as rejection of [the woman], but it’s a rejection of himself.” ([32:55])
• Men process by moving, not talking: "After a little bit of talking, we've got to move and burn it off." ([33:44])
• Misaligned expectations: Women's intuition is right that "something’s going on," but often wrong about the reason (“He's afraid… if he says or does something wrong… it’s gonna devastate the relationship, so he goes into retreat mode”). ([34:48])

Red Flags, Green Flags, and Attachment Styles

[36:22–41:22]

• Green flag: “If a guy can sit with discomfort… that’s a green flag. If he can’t… get the heck out.” ([36:22])
• Not always a red flag: Men needing space or being less eager to “argue it out” can be normal processing.
• Attachment styles:
  • Secure: "If you like me, great. If you don’t, I’ll be okay."
  • Anxious: "I need you to like me. I need constant reassurance."
  • Avoidant: Seeks connection then withdraws out of fear.
  • These can be changed, but generally not by the partner alone: "They do need somebody to help them get over this stuff." ([40:50])

Trey's Book and Human Trafficking Activism

[41:22–45:44]

• Tough Enough was written for men in their 20s but relevant for all.
• All book profits go to organizations fighting human trafficking (Trey has participated in undercover rescue ops).
• Most trafficking victims he saw in Southeast Asia were kidnapped children; trauma bonding is a major aftermath.

The Danger of Extremes: Safe Crowd vs. Andrew “Tate Crowd”

[46:05–47:50]

• “Masculinity isn’t the problem. The expression of it is.”
• The “safe crowd” contributes to passivity; the “Tate crowd” overcompensates: "Working from the same fear…[that] I’m not good enough—they achieve, get ripped, get rich, get laid, thinking that’ll fix it. But strength has to be for others’ benefit, not our own." ([46:44])

Social Media, Hustle Culture, and the Problematic Advice Online

[47:50–49:04]

• Toxic advice: Defining manhood by relentless achievement.
• “If I can just achieve enough and get rich enough… Social media tries to tell them to do, it’s like, those can be good things if they’re in their proper place… but when they become the main things, they’re going to let you down.” ([48:02])

Mental Health, Weakness, and the "Therapy Culture" Backlash

[48:33–50:28]

• Warns against using therapy as an excuse for avoiding consequences:
  "Short term comfort… makes you weak long term… If you go toward the discomfort, your anxiety realizes, oh, it wasn’t that scary after all." ([49:04])
• “If we remove consequences… everybody will be stuck in therapy and never getting out…” ([50:14])

Practical Advice: Silence and Healing

[50:56–51:20]

• Trey’s closing tip—silence is vital for self-healing:
  “Let’s build silence into our routines… If we’ll give our brains enough space and silence, the brain knows how to heal itself.” ([50:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It means to do the hard thing, the uncomfortable thing… One of the traits that a man has to have is to be self sacrificial and to serve.” – Trey Tucker [31:25]
• "We’re deathly afraid of disappointing you… that shutdown is often misread as rejection of her, but it’s a rejection of himself." – Trey Tucker [32:55]
• “Masculinity isn’t the problem. The expression of it is.” – Trey Tucker [46:05]
• “If a guy can sit with discomfort—that’s a green flag. If he can’t—get the heck out of there.” – Trey Tucker [36:22]
• “A man… has to be self sacrificial and to serve because that’s what we’re on the earth to do.” – Trey Tucker [31:37]
• "Short term comfort… makes you weak long term." – Trey Tucker [49:04]
• “Let’s build silence into our routines… If we’ll give our brains enough space… the brain knows how to heal itself.” – Trey Tucker [50:56]

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Important Timestamps

• Trey's personal story and “rejection injuries”: [03:29–05:55]
• Brain as wet cement—critical childhood years & parenting: [06:24–08:53]
• The father-son dynamic & intergenerational wounds: [12:00–13:45]
• Tough love versus enabling: [14:05–16:22]
• Why men seek therapy; gender differences in therapy: [17:46–20:23]
• Explaining EMDR for trauma: [20:23–22:52]
• Neurofeedback (for ADHD, trauma, etc.): [23:09–24:51]
• Ketamine and psychedelics for trauma: [25:04–25:45]
• Stuckness, lack of purpose in young men, two types of “lost” men: [25:45–31:25]
• “Man up,” sacrifice, and authentic masculinity: [30:47–32:27]
• What women misread about men, men’s fears in relationships: [32:27–36:10]
• Red flags/green flags in men: [36:22–37:10]
• Attachment styles in relationships: [39:53–41:22]
• Trey’s human trafficking activism story: [41:22–45:44]
• "Safe crowd" vs. "Tate crowd": [46:05–47:50]
• Damage of hustle/achievement culture: [48:02–49:04]
• Therapy culture and consequences: [49:04–50:28]
• Practical tip: Power of daily silence: [50:56–51:20]

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Final Thoughts

Trey Tucker offers a nuanced, tough-love perspective on modern masculinity, mental health, and relationships. His blend of vulnerability, actionable advice, and cultural critique (anchored by both personal and clinical experience) makes the episode both empowering and challenging, especially for men (and women striving to understand them). Tucker stresses genuine self-sacrifice, facing discomfort, and resisting both passivity and performative “alpha” masculinity. He closes by urging everyone—especially men—to seek brief moments of daily silence, as “the brain knows how to heal itself.”

Transcript

[A]

Before we get started, I wanted to let you in on a little secret. What you're about to hear is only part of the conversation. Every week we keep talking over on Patreon where you'll find exclusive bonus episodes, behind the scenes footage after show, conversations with my guests, and personal stories from my life that I don't share anywhere else. If you love Misunderstood, Patreon is where you'll get the full experience. Just head on over to patreon.com/understood with Rachel Ukatel or click the link in the show notes. I'd love to have you join us. There are a lot of pussies out there. Like, no offense, but there's a lot of men that don't know how to be men.

[B]

So there's really two types of guys. The first one is the safe crowd. They have this fear that they are not good enough.

[A]

It's probably a nicer way to describe it.

[B]

Well, no, it comes across as you're being a.

[A]

What's going on with these men that don't realize that they've got a man up?

[B]

They've gotten used to playing it safe so long, they've just lost this concept for what they're on the earth for in the first place.

[A]

So in your terms, what does it mean to man up?

[B]

It means to do the hard thing, the uncomfortable thing. And one of the traits that a man has to have is to be self sacrificial and to serve.

[A]

What's one thing men do that women constantly misread?

[B]

We're deathly afraid of disappointing you. We want to come through for you. And there's moments when we feel like we either have failed or we might fail, then that causes us to shut down. And a lot of times a woman can misread the shutdown as a rejection of her, but it's really rejection of himself.

[A]

And what do you think the most damaging advice young men are getting online right now about what it means to be a man? Trey, welcome to the show. You know, it's so funny, I. I came across your Instagram, I don't even know how, but what made me pick you as someone I wanted to track down and get on the show is that I found it interesting that you really focus on men. And I didn't notice that many people, especially on Instagram, but therapy wise or giving, you know, in advice to that just focus mostly on men. And I found that interesting and I found the way you come across and the way that talk to men to be very interesting. And I can see actually why you'd be helpful for women because you know so much about men. But anyway, so welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. And what I want from you today is I'd love for you to break down the misconceptions of the difference in therapy between men and women, and also what we as women are missing about our men, and maybe what men are missing about interacting with women and being that man or that masculine alpha that we as women desire. But, like, what does that really mean? You know what I mean? So that's what I wanted to get out of having you here.

[B]

So nice. Like, superficial, simple topics. No problem at all.

[A]

Right. Yeah. Super easy. Shit.

[B]

Well, let's do it. It's gonna be fun.

[A]

Yeah. So before we get into all that, can you give me a little bit of your background? Like, where are you from, what kind of family you grew up in, and what got you on this path in life?

[B]

Yeah. So I started out in the business world, and that was fun. I met a lot of great people and learned a lot of cool things. I also learned that it wasn't really fulfilling for me. I needed something on the daily that was actually going to, I don't know, build up my heart, soul, all that stuff. Just not just somebody else's bottom line. And then I moved into teaching and coaching, and through that, I learned how to communicate in ways that are hopefully a little more succinct than some therapists might be out there. And then also, I learned to say things in a way that especially guys can receive. And then I started getting a lot of the students and the athletes coming to me. They're asking me questions about, hey, like, what do I do about this, like, relationship thing? Or what do I do about my home life? And, like, at that time, I wasn't a therapist. I didn't know what to tell them. So I went back and got a master's in therapy in counseling to become a therapist. And so here I sit in Tennessee and talking to you today, so I'm excited.

[A]

Wow. Was there something in particular in your own life that you needed to deal with before you became a therapist that really made you, you know, feel at one with this topic?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Rejection. Rejection was the biggest one for me. And the research even shows, like, people think. You ask people what they think people's number one fear is, and, like, what would you say? Just taking a guess, Although I've probably given it away.

[A]

Well, no, I mean, obviously, rejection, not being enough, not doing enough, not becoming who I want to be, not understanding My potential. For me, for a long time in my life, it was that I wasn't worthy, you know, so for me, that was like a whole thing. And then as I got older, it was figuring out my purpose. So it became two different things.

[B]

Yeah, you're hidden the real thing. That's. That's actually people's real fear. But most people, if you just survey them, they think death is people's number one fear. But it's not. It's not just the rejection piece or not feeling like enough, but it's. It's first, like, opening up and allowing somebody to know the real me and then getting rejected because of it. So, yeah, that's people's number one fear. And that. That definitely happened to me. I never had, like, massive. What therapists would call, like, major big t. TR But I had enough little t. Traumas kind of stacked on top of each other. I realized later I was carrying around these injuries. I call them injuries, because guys don't like to talk about trauma much. But I carried around these injuries from the rejections, and I didn't know it for a long time, but then I started looking at like, well, why do I do this? Or why do I think this way? And it all pretty much was rooted in those rejections.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of therapy is based on your past and Freudian stuff and what's going on with your parents. Right. I mean, I majored in psychology. I've done a lot of therapy. I went to a therapist, therapeutic boarding school. So I'm right there with you. Like, I get it, but for people that haven't spent a lot of time in that clinical world, maybe we could break down a little bit of what you. You have learned through your therapy. The importance of your relationship with your parents growing up. And then I want to know, you know, your relationship with your parents, too, if that's okay.

[B]

Oh, of course. Yeah. I'll. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. And yeah, the parents. I'll start with this. The research shows that our brain in the first 10 years of our life is the most impressionable. Think of our brain in those years as like, really wet cement. So whatever you put in that wet cement, it's. It's going to stick in there. It's going to go pretty deep. And then as our brains get older, that wet cement starts to dry. And whatever's already in there in those first 10 years of life, it's harder to get out of there because you got to do some kind of hammering and chiseling. And cracking to get some of that stuff out. So that's where our parents come in. And let me just immediately take parents, at least try to give them some grace because there is no perfect parent. I've never met a perfect parent. I've met some awesome parents, but even they had some huge gaps. So you're never going to be perfect. So all you can do is just figure out like, okay, here's where I messed up, here's how I need to apologize and here's how I need a change. But whoever the parent is, whether they're there all the time and great or they're not there at all, you are going to be leaving marks in your child or you're going to be putting things in that wet cement and you want to be putting as much positive in there as you can. We can get to my parents in a second. But yeah, roll with it.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's funny that you say that. I have a 14 year old daughter and I don't think she's had some major T trauma that I did experience that as a child. But it's funny, I look at her sometimes and I'm like, is this gonna send you to therapy later? Like what's happening in this scenario that's gonna send you to a therapist in your 20s? So we laugh about that a lot. And something else I'm thinking about, and I know you've talked about it on your Instagram some, but I just finished the biopic of Michael Jackson and you played it on your Instagram. There's a scene and it really, I had to turn away. Like, listen, I watch any movie, I watch ID Network, I love all this deep, dark stuff. But to watch Joe Jackson beat up Michael in that one scene and to hear that boy's cries really sent me into another world. And even though I wasn't someone who was beat like that, listen, my mom took a hairbrush to me a couple times. Nowadays we would be arrested for that. But back then and watching that, it was very clear that we can all understand why Michael Jackson may have been stuck in a world of losing his childhood. As a child, he was beaten and asked to basically be an adult and never got that freedom to be a kid. So what are your thoughts as a therapist looking into that kind of behavior?

[B]

Yeah, I love talking about this stuff. Whether it's Michael Jackson or Elvis or any entertainer that I see, like they hit the heights of their career. Like they had something in them that drove them to that top and then something in them that made them Sabotage themselves down. And so with Michael especially, like, well, you take Michael and Elvis, both of their dads had massive influences on him. Elvis's dad basically wasn't even around. He was in prison most of his life. So his, his wounding of Elvis was more of a wound of absence. Joe was the opposite. He was not only there, he was way too involved. And like always watching Michael and the boys like a hawk. And even, like I've read stuff, the, the brothers even said that the. Whatever they showed in the movie wasn't even close to reality. Like, I've heard Michael say that his mom used to scream at Joe during the beatings, like, stop. You're going to kill him. You're going to kill him. Like, it was. It was nightmarish. And Michael somehow turned that into fuel to become what he became. Like, he. He would talk later about, like, I needed the love from the fans to make myself feel like I was enough.

[A]

Right. You know, and that's captured that so well in the biopic that they really showed that the reason why he performed and he cared so much about the admiration of his fans and why he took such a turn after he got accused of all these things is because the fans is where he derived his self worth.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it's great to want. It's great to have people like you, but if you need people to like you, then it's never going to do the trick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if Michael could have had a better sense of self, like he had this belief in. Back to that metaphor of the concrete. My brain is wet concrete. That belief got put in him, like, I better be perfect in order to get love from my dad, which means I must have to be perfect for everybody to love me. So if he had had a belief, a stronger sense of himself and a better sense of self worth, then he could have gone out and given from like an overflow of that. But instead, every time he went out on a stage, he was obviously being filled up. But then as soon as he stepped off the stage, he went right back to feeling the way he always felt. That's why he said, even in interviews, like, I don't feel comfortable if I'm not on a stage.

[A]

Yeah. So it's interesting. All right, let's talk about dads. I was gonna get into this later on in the episode, but let's talk about it now for a second. My father died when I was 15. And again, I wanna make this about men and their dads, but I will say, as a female losing Your father, the one man in your world and your life that's supposed to teach you about unconditional love. Having my father die in a very tragic way when I was younger affected me and affected my relationships growing up and my relationships with men. Talk to me about dads and sons and how important that relationship is. There's a lot of, you know, generations ago, men didn't say, I love you. Now it's overly I love you and making excuses for their son. So can you break that whole thing down to me? And I still missed out. I want to hear about your relationship with your father, because I know there's a lot there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. In fact, I'll. I'll work that into this. So, guys, we have at least three questions going on in our hearts.

[A]

And.

[B]

And girls have similar but somewhat different questions, too. But guys want to know, like, dad, especially directly questioning dad, dad, do you like, not just love me, but do you. Do you like me? Do you. Do you cherish me? We wouldn't use that language as a kid, but that's really the question there. And then second is, do I have the right stuff? Like, do I have the traits to become a true man? Do I. Am I made up of the right qualities to become a true man? And then the last one is, am I on the right track? Like, am I headed the right direction? And when a dad gets either taken from us, like in your case, he's not able to fully answer some of those questions, or if the dad's around, he just doesn't really know that those questions are even appropriate to be addressed or necessary to be addressed, then men and women can walk around with a bunch of unanswered questions, which makes us feel kind of hollow. And. And when we feel hollow, we're going to reach for something to fill those voids and answer those questions. And so, like my dad, he was fantastic, and his dad abandoned him when my dad was 5 years old. And I can tell you a story about a letter that dad wrote him when he was young. But dad had to figure out basically how to become a man almost on his own. Now, he had a couple mentors that filled the gaps there, but without a real father around from age 5, he became a pretty dang good dad, considering the circumstance. And so he had to figure out, like, okay, what does my son need? What is. What does Trey need that my dad didn't give me? And that's. Ultimately, that's what men are going to have to do, because even if their father's great, there's still gaps. And you got to figure out, okay, what's missing so that I don't pass along that void to my son.

[A]

Right. Something that I've noticed you do talk a lot about. And, you know, your. Your book is called Tough Enough. The difference between tough love and enabling a kid. Can we break that all down? Because I feel like those are two totally different ways of parenting or being a man. Right?

[B]

Yep. Yep. This is where I start getting fired up. And sometimes I ruffle some feathers. So here we go. When. When you do something for your kid, whether it's a guy or a girl, when you do something for them that they could do themselves, the message you're sending them is, you can't do this. I don't believe in you. But when you let them struggle, not overly struggle, but when you let them struggle and you're right there next to them while they make it through the struggle, you communicate, hey, you can do this. You do have what it takes inside. You got the right stuff. So that's the short answer to it. And we can go whatever direction you want.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's interesting. I call that being a catcher and a safety net. You know, like, I feel like as growing up, I didn't have that actually from either parent. So it was scarier to risk and fail. Because if I failed, I really failed, I think, you know, if you have parents or family members who allow you to be your own person to reach, stretch, grow, make decisions, and potentially fail at them, you can know that there's a safety net there in case you run out of money, in case you are homeless, because everything you did led you to lose your stability, that's a good thing to know. You can go home to your parents. Right. But it's. It's also important. That lesson to me was the most important lesson. You could drop me. I say this all the time. You could drop me off naked in Ghana in a box with no money, and I would figure out how to get home with a million dollars in my pocket. Because I am very resourceful, because no one ever did it for me. I think that is a good skill to have. I wanna teach that to my child. And I think it's important for her to figure out resourcefulness on her own. If you hand things to someone, even in the smallest way, by either bills or, you know, making the bills easier to find to write, you know, my mom, to this day, my mom's 80. I'm 51. Sometimes she'll show up and she'll have. Thank you Notes written and just have me write my signature at the end and stamped and, like, ready to send. I'm like, mom, why are you doing that? First of all, no one gets mail anymore. I know how to write a thank you note. Like, there are things like that that are very simple all the way to. You know, there are some parents that take care of everything. So, like, what is tough love to you that makes a man a man?

[B]

Yeah, the tough love is. I use a weight room analogy. We can go in the weight room, you and I together, and I can do the sets, and then you can sit there and watch me do it, and you can expect to get stronger, but, like, you ain't going to get stronger until you get up under that bar and do some squats and. Same thing in life. Like, I talked to a CEO last week of a company who hires a pretty good amount of young men, and he said two things. He said, first of all, they can't handle any kind of criticism, any kind of critiques. Like, not even. Not even, like, character assessments. Just like, hey, this part of the job that you just produced, you need to change this. They fall apart. And that's because they never probably grew up with parents that were actually, like, being a little bit tougher on them and saying, hey, you got to shape up in these areas. And then, number two, he says, I can't tell you the amount of times that I've had a mom or a dad try to show up to a job interview with one of these guys or communicate with me in some way during the job hiring process. It's like he's astounded by it, but it's becoming more common. So, yeah, we're holding their hands too long. And that's not loving them. Loving them and standing next to them, but letting them go through that hard stuff, like in a weight room.

[A]

Yeah. All right, so let's get back to the difference between men and women. When you. First of all, when a man comes to you and says, I need help, I need therapy, what are they really asking for? What's missing in their life?

[B]

Yeah. Well, they come in because they don't feel the way they want to feel, which is valid. Like, I don't want to feel things like anxious or depressed or whatever they're coming in with. So they want to feel happy is what the. The word that they're using. What they actually mean is. What they're looking for is joy, peace, fulfillment. Because happiness. It. It just changes based on the circumstances. Like, if I'm having a great Day, I'm probably going to be happy, but if tomorrow's not so great, I'm probably not going to be as happy. So they're looking for something more stable and solid no matter what the circumstances are. But at a basic level, what therapy is, it's holding up a mirror to somebody and letting them see, like, hey, here's kind of your thought patterns, what you normally think most often, and then here are some of the emotions and here's why the thoughts are causing those emotions. And then if they come in trying to change a behavior where it's an easy connection, like, okay, your emotions are actually putting you into motion. Like, if you chop off the e off of the word emotion, you get the word emotions. So your emotions are trying to get you to do something. You just gotta decide, are you gonna let your emotions be the thing that dictates your behavior or are you gonna be the thing that dictates everything?

[A]

Tell me if I'm wrong. I can imagine that most men think that it's not manly to go to therapy. Like, it's. Women think about it all the time. Like, that's easy to go talk to someone. But I would assume that for men that they're like, I don't need this. I'm not doing this. This is stupid. So at what point are you saying, no, guys, this is important for you and I can help you.

[B]

Yeah, it's less of an issue now because I think social media, it's one of the few things that social media has been helpful with, is kind of destigmatizing some of the mental health stuff that men might have thought. There's still some guys that think, yeah, it's stupid, I don't need this. But they're more open than they used to be. But what they don't want want is to the at least the idea of sitting there having to use a bunch of words and talk about their emotions and like, they, they get repulsed by that. And so the idea here is that, like talk therapy, it's not the only type of therapy. Talk therapy works really well for women because y' all speak so many more words than the rest of us, than the men do. I think it's something like women on average speak 40,000 words in a day, and men speak an average of about 4,000. And so there's other types of therapy that, that work better for men than just straight up talk therapy. And for. Honestly, for trauma and other things, therapy is not the best. But yeah, they're willing to come in, but they don't they don't like the idea of sitting there and just talking and talking and talking.

[A]

Yeah. So I know you're trained in emdr. Can you explain that to me? Like, I've never heard the term.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so I'm going to use an object here. I'm going to use this remote control. So let's say that this is a traumatic event from my past. Any normal event happens, your brain puts a time stamp on it. Like, okay, this event happened on July 1, 2026. And then it can put it in the cabinet. When a traumatic event happens, it really overwhelms the brain, and so the brain can't put a timestamp on it. It's too big. So it just kind of becomes part of life for you. It's like right in your field of vision, you're still able to do life, but it's always in the front of your mind. And so emdr, I can show you. What happens is you use left and right movements with your eyes or with your hands, and that motion helps the brain put a timestamp on the traumatic event. And then it basically does this. And I'm not sure if anybody's listening. I'm pulling the remote from my eyes to further out so you can see. You can still see that the event is there. It's just not taking so much of your brain power to try to do life with it right up in your eyes. So EMDR doesn't erase the trauma. It just puts a timestamp on it so that it seems like a less charged memory that's having an effect.

[A]

How do you do that? Is that through talk therapy or.

[B]

No, it's actually. It's one of my favorites, because you don't talk much. You're not supposed to talk much. I'll tell you this. If you talk about your trauma, you're not healing it, and you're probably going to make it worse, because the trauma lives in the back of your brain. And talking just hits the front of your brain. And so when you talk about it, you're reliving it. And then your brain is like, what the heck? We're doing it again. Because a lot of your nervous system, it doesn't know time. So talking something, imagining something, it. It can. Without. Without an actual process, it just causes haywire again in your brain. Emdr, I would ask you, like, if you were my client, Rachel, I would say, okay, bring up the memory, or bring up a part of the memory and just hold in your mind. I don't need to hear any details about it, but hold it in your mind and then follow my fingers for 30 seconds and then we'll do sets of that. Sets of 30 seconds. And each time after a set, I would check in with you. Like, is it a level 10 disturbance now? Is it now maybe coming down to maybe a 5? Or the goal is to get it down to a one or a zero.

[A]

Wow. Okay, so movements like that affect your brain, which then affects your memory, which pushes a memory further away from being in the forefront of your mind.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Got it. Got it. Okay.

[B]

You said a lot better than I did.

[A]

That's very well. Because I'm a woman, I guess. Just kidding.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Okay. No, I love that. I think that's amazing. All right. You're also certified in neurofeedback back. What is that? And who is that actually for?

[B]

Yeah. So similar ideas, getting your subconscious part of your brain. I'm always looking for tools to get to the subconscious because that's where the root really is. And neurofeedback. And then there's a newer kind of technology called Saracet. Both of those things. It looks crazy. It looks like so, woo woo. But you're hooked up to a machine and there are electrodes or readers on your scalp. And that's reading the electricity that comes off our brain because our whole body gives off electricity. When you hear about like, I vibe with somebody, that's because the vibrations coming off of them are actually in the same frequency with you. But anyway, neurofeedback and Sarah set, they train your brain. They. They read what's. What your brain is doing. And then it's. How do I. How do I say this?

[A]

It.

[B]

Basically you're watching a TV show or a movie that you choose, and when your brain does the wrong thing, it cuts off the show. But when your brain does the right thing, it brings the show back up. So subconsciously your brain starts learning, like, okay, well, if I go into anxious mode, the show goes away, but if I go out of anxious mode, the show comes back. So it's like hundreds of reps of moving out of anxious mode. And then your brain realizes like, oh, I need to stay here in order to keep the show going.

[A]

So is it something the machine is doing or are you actually guiding them through something that makes their brain work?

[B]

No, I'm not doing anything as a therapist. It's the machine doing it. So I'm just there in case something goes wrong with the machine. But yeah, that's.

[A]

But I mean, is the Science being walked through some sort of memories while the machine is doing it. Or it just literally the machine is working with your brain and your. And you as the client are sitting there quiet.

[B]

Yeah, you as a client are sitting there quiet. There's no memory you have to bring up. It's just reading what your brain is doing. Basically, it's like checking the hood of a car. It's like checking all the parts.

[A]

Wow. And this helps with. What's the end goal for that?

[B]

Yeah, the biggest things that helps with are adhd, pretty severe trauma, and then anxiety and sometimes depression.

[A]

Interesting. Do you believe in what all these people are talking about? Ketamine for PTSD or mushrooms or ayahuasca. All these things for bringing up and dealing with past trauma.

[B]

There's real research that does show it can be helpful. But a lot of people think it's going to be this one and done thing where like, I just do it once and I'm good. That's not how it works, unfortunately. Like you'll get better for a temporary amount of time and then your brain starts reverting back. So it can be like a Kickstarter or maybe a thing that gets you unstuck, but you still have to go through the actual process of like digging out some of those rocks and that cement that got put in long ago from the trauma.

[A]

So what about for people that are listening? Listen, I know, I feel like your target audience is men in their 20s. I'm probably older, but that's probably gotta be your core business. I know a lot of kids that young men, whatever, that feel like life hasn't really happened to them yet. So they're kind of stuck. But they're so much like drug use, marijuana, getting into bad relationships, they have no idea what their purpose is yet. Cause they're figuring out their job, whatever it is. And I feel like there's a little bit of stuckness. I mean, from everybody, not just young men, but people like people who've lived through Covid and don't know how to get off their ass, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then a lot of bad parenting mixed with that. That hasn't helped kids like get a kick in the ass like we did in our generation where it was like, you work and you learn how to become a real person, whether it's a woman or a man. What would you say for people that are listening to this that kind of, you know, don't have some big T like you talked about? They don't remember that there's a big trauma in their Life. They don't know why they're at where they're at. They're just. Just feel, you know, and they're hesitating to make the next move. With someone like you, how do you identify with that person? Listening, like, hey, you don't have to have this big T to need help and to get that kick. So what would you say to that?

[B]

Yeah. So first I always tell people, like, hey, you might not need therapy. Like, not everybody does. And I describe it this way. If you've got a really strong friendship network, family network, where you can talk things out with people you trust and that's good for you, then keep doing that. And for a lot of us, that only goes so far. And then we need somebody that's more of an expert with training. So if you feel like that's necessary, then I describe therapy with two different metaphors. Number one, it's like the check engine light on a car. The check engine light is really annoying on a car. It's supposed to be annoying because it wants you to go check under the hood. A check engine light in us is, excuse me, is an unpleasant emotion. So let's take anxiety. I hate anxiety. It's what I struggle with the most when mental health becomes an issue for me. And I learned to quit looking at anxiety as an enemy and start looking at as just a messenger trying to tell me something. So anxiety is making me uncomfortable on purpose so that I'll check under the hood myself. And so instead of, like, trying to medicate anxiety away or trying to ignore it, let me lean into it and figure out what need is it trying to point me to. And that's what therapy helps you do is it helps you figure out, like, what do you really need? What do you really want? What's standing in the way of that? And how do we clear those hurdles to get what you want? A lot of therapy focuses too much on a problem and not the solution.

[A]

That's interesting, but what about for these people that don't realize that they need a kick in the ass? Because I know, again, I love that you have this rugged concept, this tough concept. There are a lot of pussies out there. Like, no offense, but there's a lot of men that don't know how to be men. And my problem as a woman in the last couple decades is I felt like I had to be the man and the woman in my life. And I had been through enough traumas that I had gotten myself through. So when it came to finding a relationship, I was like, well, this person wasn't better at me. Better than me at that. So I don't have respect for them. Like, I wanted to be with a partner that could help me figure it out, be better at something than me. And it was really hard to find a partner that wasn't what I thought a pussy, you know, was. Yeah. So it's kind of like, where are these men and women? What. What's going on with these men that don't realize that they've got a me man up?

[B]

Yeah. So there's really two types of guys that I think, at least, that are in the unhealthy category. The first one is what you described. I'm describing them as the safe crowd. Okay. They have this fear.

[A]

That's probably a nicer way to describe it than me.

[B]

Well, no, it comes across as you're being a pussy. And, like, have you seen or heard about the movie Obsession?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, so did you see it?

[A]

Yes, I saw it.

[B]

Okay, so, Bear, is that the type of guy you're talking about? Like, not to the extreme level, but, like the. The guy who just, like, won't step up and actually do something?

[A]

Basically, yeah.

[B]

And so that type of guy, he's so scared that he's not good enough, and so he's just gonna sit back and not take any risks. Because if I take a risk and try something like asking her out or, you know, doing whatever, then I might get rejected, and then that'll confirm that I'm not good enough, and then I'll be devastated. Like, that's the kind of under the hood logic going on there. So what I try to tell those types of guys is like, hey, what do you really want out of life? I try to get them to get a vision for their life because they've gotten used to playing it safe so long, like through video games or even drugs or whatever, that they've just lost this concept for what they're on the earth for in the first place. The purpose thing, like you're talking about. And if I can get them to start at least seeing a vision for that, that then they'll naturally start moving toward that vision. Because we're meant to, especially guys, we're meant to climb a mountain and do a quest, and then they can get that kick in the ass once they have a direction. But it's got to be their direction. It can't be me saying, like, here, here's what you need to do.

[A]

Right. So in your terms, what does it mean to man up?

[B]

Yeah, it means to do the hard thing and the uncomfortable thing. Like just from a biological standpoint, your brain is going to grow. There's a part of your brain that's going to grow when you do something that you absolutely Dr. Like that's why some guys do cold plunges or go on long runs. Like, we don't want to do that stuff really, but we know that we actually are going to feel accomplished after it. So that's, that's at least first step.

[A]

Okay, that's interesting. What about manning up in relationships or manning up at work? You know what, what would you say is what makes a man?

[B]

Yeah. Then we're talking about sacrifice. Because if I'm in me first mode and I probably don't even realize it, then I'm probably heading toward what culture would call toxic masculinity.

[A]

And is that what we call a narcissist?

[B]

Yeah, but you wouldn't be like a diagnosable, like narcissistic personality disorder. Like we all have narcissistic traits. Okay. So if I'm, if I'm putting myself first, then it's not only am I going to do damage to other people, but I'm also going to be empty myself. So a man, one of the definitions of a man, one of the traits that a man has to have, have is to be self sacrificial and to serve because that's what we're on the earth to do. Therefore that's what's going to fulfill us. So if I can help guys realize in a relationship, are you in this relationship to get or to give? Like, yeah, you're going to get some benefits, but primarily are you here to, to give and to sacrifice and to make her life better or are you primarily just trying to get from her whether it's like status or sex or whatever?

[A]

Right. I want to decode men for the women listening right now. What's one thing men do that women constantly misread?

[B]

One thing that men do that women constantly misread?

[A]

Yeah. Or like, is there something that we as women are not understanding and you have so much experience with men and their psyche and what they're trying to do? Like, are there a couple things that we are misreading and we become part of the problem because we don't understand men better. Better?

[B]

Yeah. One of them is we are deathly. Excuse me, we're deathly afraid of disappointing you. We, we want to come through like from, from a young age, most boys are obsessed with superheroes, like saving the day. So I've, I've got a nephew, a video of my nephew. And he was like 2 years old. He had his Batman costume on, and we were playing a Batman theme song. And he was just like, punching the air because nobody taught him to do that. There was just something in him. So, like, we want to come through for you. And. And there's moments when we feel like we either have failed or we might fail, then that causes us to shut down. And a lot of times we. A woman can misread the shutdown as a rejection of her, but it's really. It's kind of a rejection of himself.

[A]

Right. And then what's something men wish that women understood about how they process stress or emotion?

[B]

Yeah, we. Back to the words thing. We don't benefit as much by talking about it. We benefit some by talking about it. But after a little bit of talking, we gotta move. Like in a school situation, if you just talk to a boy about, like, why his behavior was wrong, he's not gonna get it. Like, he needs to actually say a few words, but then he needs to get up and move and burn it off. Like, if he goes through something not necessarily traumatic but stressful, he's got to move. So we're much more movement oriented than women are.

[A]

Yeah. I think there's a lot of miscommunication between men and women with this intuition that women have and this gut feeling that we have. Men are of less words, as you said. And women wanna talk it out. They wanna understand. They wanna understand why they're feeling a certain way about your actions. And I think a lot gets misinterpreted there because of our intuition that may or may not be right about the exact reason you're behaving a certain way. What are your thoughts on that?

[B]

Yeah, I'm fully with you there. Like, I know 99% of the guys I know, they will do almost anything they can do to keep from harming the woman in their life, whether it's wife, girlfriend, mom, sister, whatever. Because we, again, we want to come through. We want to be the rescuer. But a lot of times a woman's intuition, which is awesome, y' all can tell when there's something going on in us. But you may not be able to read our minds and tell us, like, exactly why we're feeling a certain way. Sometimes women can assume that, well, you're just being a jerk. You won't talk like, well, it's not really what's going on. He's just. He's afraid that if he says something wrong or does Something wrong more then it's gonna devastate the relationship. So he basically goes into, like, retreat mode or freeze mode.

[A]

And a lot of it can be like, the man is worried because of something happening at work or how much he's getting paid or not getting paid. And that translates to him being able to take care of the woman. So there's, like, a lot more to the situation and the anxiety within it than, you know, what we may be getting in our gut.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I guarantee it's either a fear or some sort of pain. If a guy is struggling and really can't put words to it, or you can see something, it's most likely a fear. Like fear that I'm a failure, fear that I'm not good enough, or some sort of pain where I experience a rejection or anything else that might have caused hurt. So those are areas you can guess at.

[A]

Right. Okay, another question for you. What's re. What's a real red flag in a man worth paying attention to? And what's a red flag that actually isn't that big of a deal for a woman to know?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man, there's so many. So many to pay attention to. Let's go back to this. This willingness to do hard things. If. If a guy can sit with discomfort, whether it be physical or emotional discomfort, that's a green flag. If he can can't, then get the heck out of there because you ain't gonna be able to train him to do that. And that probably went back to where his parents were probably enabling him, or at least one parent was enabling him. So that's one of them. Being able to actually sit with discomfort is a. Is a huge either red or green flag, depending on whether they can or they can't. And then your second one, he said, what's one that seems like a red flag that may not be.

[A]

Yeah, like something that women might be, like, harping on that. It's kind of like, that's really not a big deal. All guys do this. This is just their way of killing steam. Burning steam, whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, there's tons. So

[A]

I think you may have said one before too. Like you said that men retreat more into their head or walk away a little more, whereas women wanna maybe argue it out and find the words and whatever. So maybe that's not that big of a deal unless you have a husband or a boyfriend or a man in your life who really goes within and becomes isolated. To me, that would be the red flag that's important. Isolating yourselves Whereas May, you know, it's not such a red flag if they're like, listen, we don't need to argue so much about this. Like, we're good, we're moving on. We're walking around, like you said.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And like, that makes me think of the constant need for reassurance. Like, that's another issue that a lot of men have that don't realize it. But on the flip side, when you shouldn't worry about it is when. If a guy is not overly concerned about whatever the conflict is, if it's not this recurring conflict that keeps coming up, then just maybe roll with his instinct on that, because he knows what a battle can be. Men are designed to be warriors. And if some conflict doesn't seem like that big of a deal to him, at least in isolation, roll with it. Now, if he's minimizing everything as a pattern, then that's a big deal. But don't assume that if you think it's here and he thinks it's here, don't think that's a red flag. That just may be a misinterpretation.

[A]

Right. I want to talk about relationships for a cause. It's obviously such a big thing. Everybody is on a dating app or wanting to get married or with a matchmaker. Like, everyone's talking about wanting love and whatever that means to them. I've seen you break down the different attachment styles and ones that are harmful. I'm someone who, in my mid-20s and 30s, I basically was a love addict. And I would replace intensity for love and not really get it. And I came from a place of, like, when I go on a date, I would know immediately if I was gonna start dating this person because it would be an immediate attachment. And if I went on a date and I didn't have any sort of immediate attachment, I would write them off as someone who I wouldn't wanna date, which was very unhealthy. And it ended up working for me later on in my life. To understand, you have to know someone first. Having that feeling of, like, oh, my God, they know me. They get me. Immediately became a red flag to me. And thank God, because I think I would get into these relationships wanting to be known, and you have this anxious, anxious attachment that, like, just was a nightmare. So can. For people listening and struggling with their relationships, can you kind of break down the different attachment styles and the ones that are not healthy and the ones that are.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Let's start with the healthy ones. Secure attachments. That's when I Know who I am. And if you like me, then great. And if you don't like me, then bummer. But I'm gonna be okay, right? That's secure attachment. Anxious attachment is like, I need you to like me. And, like, I need constant reassurance that we're good. Like, are you good? Anything missing, anything wrong, like, that kind of thing. And then avoidant attachment. That's when, like, deep down, I do want connection and attachment, but I'm also scared of it. So I'll move toward the connection or toward the person. And then when it starts to happen, like, oh, wait, wait, wait. This reminds me of something from the past where I got hurt, so I'm going the other way.

[A]

So it's the fear of rejection or being left once you're attached. Is that what that is?

[B]

Basically, yeah. And we can spend, like, hours on each one, but that's the gist of it.

[A]

Right. And if you're in any of the ones that are not the positive, how can you. I mean, are these relationships to just write off or are these things like, that can be fixed?

[B]

They can absolutely be fixed. You as a partner are not going to be able to fix them. They need somebody, whether it's a therapist or friends, to help them figure this stuff out. They do need somebody to help them get over this stuff because it's. It's. All it really is, is beliefs under the surface and their subconscious. And that makes it sound simpler than it is. It's not simple, but it's. If you can get to. If they can get to those beliefs. Beliefs and trade them out from lies to truth, then they feel safe in the moment, because that's really what it's about, is feeling safe right there in the moment. In connection.

[A]

Yeah. So you have a book out called Tough Enough. Can you talk about your book and break it down a little bit for people that might be interested?

[B]

Yeah. So, first of all, whatever I make from the book, I donate it to organizations that help young men and help end human trafficking, because human trafficking is the thing that enrages me the most. I went undercover to do raids to rescue girls who had been kidnapped into the house, that horrific world. So this book, whatever I make from this book is going to that stuff. The publisher came to me. I wasn't even thinking about writing a book. They came to me saying, hey, we want you to write a book for men. And I thought, well, what am I going to say that hasn't already been written? So I realized that guys in their 20s have never been had A book written specifically for them. Every chapter is a topic that really almost every chapter is going to apply to men or women of any age. I just used examples and stories of guys in their 20s so that they could take these concepts and realize, like, hey, this is how to apply it into your particular life.

[A]

Amazing. Wait, can you go back? Spool back for a second? You talked about going undercover. What? What was that?

[B]

So when I saw the movie Taken with Liam Neeson a long time ago, I didn't know what human trafficking even was. But when I saw that movie, I realized, like, wait a minute. That's a thing? All right, I gotta do something more than just donate money to this. So I went on a huge search trying to find organizations that would take me, a volunteer with no real experience audience. And I like, like, dude, just take me. I want to go in there with. To the dangerous stuff. I gotta help get these girls out. And so this organization trained me up. There was a team of five of us, and we went into these horrible places in Southeast Asia that they. They basically function as a bar, but upstairs is the brothel. And they had to sell a certain amount of not just alcohol and food, but sex. And so we posed as this. What's called sex tourists and gathered a bunch of information, and we ended up taking down a whole bar in a raid where they. Where the. Their version of the, like the FBI or SWAT team came in. And I was kind of the tip of the spear on that because I'm an adrenaline junkie.

[A]

What? This is amazing. Wait, what's the organization?

[B]

So I'm not allowed to say the name of the organization just because the tactics are all kind of top secret. But. But there. There are plenty of awesome ones out there. So if you want to support one, they're definitely plenty of.

[A]

So if people just heard that and they want to support one, how would they find?

[B]

Yeah, so, like, the most famous one is IJM International Justice Mission. But there's awesome ones besides that. But if you just search anti human trafficking organizations, there's dozens of them, and most of them are really reputable.

[A]

So you got to witness firsthand women being retaken from the situation and brought back to their countries or home. I mean, were any of these, like, American girls that had been missing? Like, what. What did you find out of these people? People?

[B]

So a lot of the ones that we, we encountered, they were kidnapped from small villages around Asia.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Where their education level is low enough to. Where the parents are too naive to know what's happening to their kids. Like, they'll come to these parents and say, hey, we're going to take your kid with us and he's going to work or she's going to work in the factory and we're going to send money back to you. And unfortunately the parents go for that and they never see their daughter again or their son. Sons are part of this too. A lot of the American girls we found out, they end up in really underground locations where you, you have to be part of like what you and I would know as like the Epstein world to, to really get them out because.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Well for a multitude of different reasons. So most of the ones we were dealing with were, were from the Asia type area or the South American area.

[A]

I'm curious about the girls reaction. What was there a moment where they realized that they were safe? Did they, were they so indoctrined and what was happening that they thought that that was their family and didn't want to leave? Like what did you experience?

[B]

Some of them, it did become well at all. They all have their now adopted families now that they're safe. But when they were in there they get trauma bonded with each other and to the perpetrators. So yeah, there, there is a twisted sense where they thought like a part of them thought like this is where I'm supposed to stay, even though I'm getting abused because your brain can adapt to so much. But for the most part we got reports after the fact we weren't able to do the follow up care with them, but we got reports after the fact fact that they were actually doing well and like bonding with the other girls in the orphanage and with a therapist. So the long term it turned out well. But yeah, at first it's horribly disorienting to them.

[A]

Right, sorry, let me wait till that. Can you turn that off please?

[B]

It's on.

[A]

Do not disturb. Sorry George, you'll have to edit that out. Sorry, let me go back to this. Okay. You said masculinity isn't the problem. The expression of it is. What does that look like when it goes wrong?

[B]

It looks like the Tate crowd, what I call the Tate crowd. Like Andrew Tate. Like earlier we talked about what I call the safe crowd. Like the bear from Obsession. Just like sitting back, playing it safe, afraid to take any risk. The other end of that spectrum is the Tate crowd where they, they're working from the same fear of like maybe I'm not good enough. They take an approach of like well hell, I'm going to achieve as much as I can and get as many women as I can. And the whole lie is if I can just get ripped, get rich, get laid, then I'll feel like I'm good enough, and then I can squelch that fear that I'm not good enough. And that's a horrible way to express masculinity. Like, we're supposed to express strength. Yes, but the strength has to be for other people's benefit, not for our own.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like in the last couple years, there's. There's this sort of alpha maga man that was built, and I. I don't even want to use the word maga in that, but it kind of was. It was like all these guys that, like an Andrew Tate that thought this ultra masculine sense, and it really caught fire on Instagram, you saw these guys. So do you think under. Like, do you think a lot of it was just an act, or you think they really believe that this is what a masculine man is and everyone else is useless and they should all have trad wives? Like, what do you think is going on in their mind?

[B]

Deep down? I think they know that they're insecure and they don't want to show it. And so they think if I can just put on enough of a strength act, then not only can I make you think that I'm strong, but then I'll convince myself that I'm strong. But a guy that really knows that he's strong, he doesn't have to prove it. So any guy that's, like, really trying to project this image of strength and masculinity, like, dude, what are you compensating for? Because if you already know something's true about you, you don't have to try to convince other people it's true.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of stuff online right now. And so what do you think the most damaging advice young men are getting online right now, now, is about what it means to be a man.

[B]

Achievement is really the main message, like the hustle culture. And there is starting to be some pushback on this because a lot of guys have achieved that levels that they wanted to, and then it didn't actually do what they thought it would do. But there's still this, like, well, if I can just. If I can just achieve enough and get rich enough and start enough businesses and like, all the. All the things, all the check boxes that we. That social media tries to tell them to do, it's like, those can be good things if they're in their proper place in the batting order, but when they Become the main things, they're gonna let you down.

[A]

Yeah. And I know that mental health is a big. I mean, it's what you do. Right. But at what point there was no way that I could ever call in sick at my job, My job. In my 20s, I worked at Bloomberg News. I could never call in and be like, I need to take a mental health day, you know, or your, you know, your tone is too aggressive for me to handle right now or whatever. Right. So what do you think about these days and, like, what's appropriate and what really is too much for your mental health?

[B]

Yeah. So I'm glad you're asking this because therapy culture is driving me crazy. Like, I love therapy. I am one, I'm a therapist. But we've gotten so far in this direction of like, if it's bad for your mental health, we just, we shouldn't do it at all, like now. No, no. Because all you're doing is choosing short term comfort, which makes you feel good in the moment, but it makes you weak long term, which is going to make your mental health weaker. You know, I'll give you an example. In the athletics world, a couple weeks ago, there was a college quarterback who got caught for gambling. And the traditional punishment for getting caught for gambling is you're suspended. Like, you're gone. Like, everybody knows that. Well, he sued saying, well, this is going to hurt my mental health if you don't let me play. And a freaking judge sided with him. I was pulling my hair out. As a therapist, we're going to use therapy as a way to just get around any consequence. So to your point, yeah. If just because somebody makes you anxious or if you're having a bad day, show up anyway because that's going to build your confidence and it's going to train your nervous system to know, like, anxiety is going to keep you stuck. But if you go toward the discomfort, your anxiety realizes, like, oh, it wasn't that scary after all.

[A]

Right. So you believe that consequence is a big part of a learning experience?

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And if, if we remove consequences, then everybody will be stuck in therapy and never getting out because they'll never have learned actual lessons from real life. They'll just be talking about all these theoretical stuff about how they're feeling.

[A]

Right. Okay. So where should people go if they want your help? The book, the courses, the counseling, all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah, the book is everywhere. Barnes and Noble, Amazon. It's called Tough Enough. I'm on social media, Rugged counseling, so happy to help whoever I can. I get to do some speeches as well. So it's a fun ride for sure.

[A]

Amazing. Final thought. You want to leave with the audience that maybe I didn't ask or that you want to share.

[B]

You know what I always try to tell guys especially is let's build silence into our routines. Even 30 seconds today and maybe 60 seconds tomorrow. Because if we'll give our brains enough space and silence, the brain knows how to heal itself. But today, we're always watching something or listening to something, and your brain's always working, working, working. And so if you start giving your brain just a little bit of silence every day, you'll start feeling better just from that alone.

[A]

Amazing. All right, well, I really appreciate you, Trey and I. Oh, and are you doing one on ones with clients? Like, can they find you? Can they DM you and get a one on one or how does that work?

[B]

I'm full on one on ones right now. I'm starting some groups because of that fact that people do want to meet, and I don't have the margin for the one on ones, but I am starting some groups that they want to reach out.

[A]

Okay. And they can find that in the places you just listed. We'll also have all your contacts in the show notes and the link to your book.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks so much. Appreciate you, Rachel.

[A]

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