What “Love Story” Got Wrong: Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy’s Friend Reacts After the Finale

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

Episode: What “Love Story” Got Wrong: Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy’s Friend Reacts After the Finale

Date: March 28, 2026
Guest: Guy Clark (friend of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, former Cartier executive)

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Overview

In this episode, Rachel Uchitel follows up with Guy Clark, close friend of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, in the wake of the highly-discussed docuseries finale on Carolyn and John F. Kennedy Jr. With renewed public fascination and increased media coverage since his last appearance, Guy sets out to clarify misconceptions about Carolyn and react to her portrayal in the series—especially what the final episodes get right and wrong. The conversation delves into the intimate realities of Carolyn’s life, her relationship with John, the realities of public scrutiny, and Guy’s unique vantage point as a confidant.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Unexpected Spotlight on Guy Clark

• Guy’s sudden rise in public interest:
  • “It’s still bizarre for me, you know, because I’ve kept quiet for so long for these 30 years, and now all of a sudden I feel like I’M been sprung into the limelight over this.” (02:08, Guy Clark)
  • 3.5 million views on his Instagram; featured in various media outlets.

How Carolyn Would React to Modern Obsession

• Fashion icon status:
  • “She would love the fashion part, that she wouldn’t understand it completely because she didn’t really try too hard. But that’s kind of the point. It was effortless for her. And now here all these people are trying so hard to look like her, to be effortless...” (02:46, Guy Clark)
• On social media:
  • “She wouldn’t like the social media aspect at all. She’d probably have a fake name on there just so she could watch her friends.” (03:07, Guy Clark)

Carolyn’s Private Persona vs. Public Perception

• Media portrayal in the series:

  • The press often calls her “complicated, isolated, struggling under pressure, even cold”—Guy disagrees.
  • “She wasn’t cold... that’s a self-protection thing. That’s nothing more than that.” (04:39, Guy Clark)

• Insecurity under the limelight:

  • “I think she was insecure in the limelight ... being thrown into the limelight as the most beautiful, the most fashionable, and the one that married the most handsome man and most eligible bachelor in the world, it’s a lot to live up to.” (05:56–06:11, Guy Clark)

The Truth Behind the Apartment and Daily Life

• Fact vs. Fiction in set design:
  • The apartment shown is “pretty similar” but not entirely accurate; single-story, minimal décor, John had distinctive, simple Caribbean-inspired wooden chairs. (06:44-07:39)

Topic Deep Dive: The Series Finale and Troubling Episodes

Misrepresentation in Episode 8

• Carolyn as isolated and agoraphobic:
  • “Episode eight was basically them arguing the whole time and her never leaving her apartment for a year. Which is totally not true ... I was with her eating out for lunch ... they were out.” (07:59–08:25)
• “She did not disappear.” (08:36, Guy Clark)

The Reality of Carolyn and John’s Marriage

• Not a forced relationship or loveless union:

  • “They both were madly in love with each other.” (11:16–11:21, Guy Clark)
  • “If you asked anybody that knew them, you’ll see that’s the same answer.” (11:22–11:28, Guy Clark)

• Marriage problems are universal – theirs were just public and at the end:

  • “Every marriage ... has blips and turns in the road, and you find your way ... their blip came at the end of their life.” (12:29, Guy Clark)

• Actress portrayal differences:

  • John's portrayal was praised: “He nailed it.”
  • Carolyn’s actress “didn’t get the personality ... the empathy, the kindness, the generosity.” (12:25–12:54, Guy Clark)

Emotional Toll of the Finale

• Re-experiencing Trauma:
  • “I was laying in bed watching this morning, and I shook uncontrollably. It was horrifying ... I had to put all that stuff in a safety deposit box and forgot about it for, you know, 30 years or whatever. 27 years.” (13:04–13:40, Guy Clark)
• The airplane scene:
  • Guy, who has a background with small planes, was especially shaken: “I was getting kind of emotional ... I realized while that was happening that I had put her in a box. And that’s what really moved me...” (13:51–14:57, Guy Clark)

Dissecting the Crash Details

• John's piloting limitations:
  • “He was not at that point, John. So he could only fly... visually.” (15:17–15:30, Guy Clark)
  • Discussion on the fog, timing of takeoff, and depictions of these details in the series.

Family Grief and Media (Lauren, Lisa, and Caroline Kennedy)

• Lauren Bessette’s forgotten story:

  • “No one really cared, it seemed. They didn’t pay. Nobody paid attention to, to this poor girl, Lauren.” (17:38–17:57, Rachel & Guy)

• Carolyn’s mother and surviving sister:

  • “She had a twin sister, Lisa. Lisa, who’s still alive.” (18:07, Guy Clark)

• Silence of the Bessette family and possible settlements:

  • “They got a big settlement. I don’t know how much it was. And rightfully so. A wrongful death settlement. ... I imagine they’ve never talked about it for a reason.” (19:55–20:08, Rachel & Guy)

• Caroline Kennedy's portrayal:

  • “She did a great job. And it really made you feel empathetic to Caroline.” (20:22–20:23, Rachel)
  • Reflection on public judgment: “So many people talk shit about her ... She’s just a nice woman with kids and a husband.” (20:30–20:33, Rachel & Guy)
  • Discussion of her tragedies and recent loss of her daughter.

The Impact on Kennedy Family

• Rory Kennedy’s planned wedding:
  • The crash’s impact on Rory's life and her wedding plans was discussed; the wedding was postponed and later held in Greece. (21:43–22:36)

The Series’ Backlash from the Kennedy Circle

• Kennedy family's disapproval:

  • “The Kennedy circle has come out and said ... they do not support it. They didn’t like how either one of them was depicted.” (23:05–23:06, Rachel)

• John’s depiction:

  • “He comes off kind of cocky in parts, but he also comes off a little dumb, you know ... but he was trying to keep a magazine together. ... He had aspirations for himself, not to just be a husband ... I don’t think that somebody should take that away from him just because he had places to be that his priority wasn’t having lunch with his wife.” (23:06–24:14, Rachel)

• Example of public duty vs. private life:

  • “She said, John, can we just go out for a burger with Guy and Claudia? Do we have to do this? ... He said, Carolyn, we have to do this ... and so there’s the exact example of what you’re saying. Yeah, it was duty versus what she would rather do.” (24:45–25:43, Guy)

On Not ‘Knowing What You’re Getting Into’

• “She wasn’t told or sold anything. She fell in love with a man. And when you do, you take everything that comes with him.” (26:13, Guy)

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Closing Reflections & Personal Mementos

• Guy on the real Carolyn:
  • “All I can say is I only knew the part of her that was caring, kind, generous, and empathetic to a point of a fault, almost. ... The gifts she’s given my mother and the note she’s written me ... because she felt empathetic towards her and knew that she’d lost a child. Now, what a twist of fate that is. Then, you know, Carolyn’s mother loses two children.” (27:05–28:08, Guy)

Notable Quote

“If I could right now, I’d hug her [Carolyn’s mother] constantly, you know?” (28:08, Guy)

• Discussing Carolyn’s personal gifts and jewelry:

  • Earrings: “Three colors of gold... little huggy from Cartier in the rolling ring motif.” (28:27–28:44, Guy)
  • The famous watch: “A sterling silver Cartier Lamas de Cartier tank watch. ... Hers was on a black strap ... everyone thinks it’s gold ... she didn’t want that.” (28:44–29:41)
  • The solitaire diamond necklace: “It was part of her trousseau basically that John gave her ... I feel like it’s part of her, you know.” (29:48–31:03, Guy)

• On whether to donate or auction Carolyn’s jewelry memorabilia:

  • “I tried to give all this memorabilia to Cartier for their museum ... they said, you know, we really think you should just put it up for auction and maybe we’ll bid on it.” (31:03–31:12, Guy)

• Rachel suggests seeking listener input:

  • “Maybe somebody who’s listening might reach out to Guy on his Instagram. ... That’s a good idea for a post.” (32:02–32:16, Rachel)

• Guy considers a memoir:

  • “A lot of people writing to me and saying, you need to write a book. ... I am writing a book, but it was a book that started from a different point of view.” (32:19–32:48, Guy)
  • Shares anecdotes from his career, including stories about Elizabeth Taylor and Jackie Onassis. (33:29–34:19)

• Guy reconnects with Carolyn’s friend Carol (Lee Radziwill’s daughter) because of the podcast and Instagram. (34:19–35:10)

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Memorable Quotes

• “She wasn’t cold... If you look at her, she’s always got her head down. That’s a self-protection thing. That’s nothing more than that.” (04:39, Guy Clark)
• “They both were madly in love with each other ... [the show] does not [show that].” (11:16–11:28, Guy Clark)
• “I shook uncontrollably. It was horrifying ... I had to put all that stuff in a safety deposit box and forgot about it for, you know, 30 years or whatever. 27 years.” (13:04–13:40, Guy Clark)
• “If I could right now, I’d hug her [Carolyn’s mother] constantly, you know?” (28:08, Guy Clark)
• On writing a book: “That’s what’s been happening. Like, I wrote this whole thing about Elizabeth Taylor. She was my client for years...” (33:29, Guy Clark)

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Important Timestamps

• Guy discusses going public and social media attention: 01:38–02:26
• Carolyn's effortless style and reaction to fashion legacy: 02:46–03:07
• Show's portrayal of Carolyn and Guy's first-hand memories: 04:16–06:36
• Discussion of portraying the apartment accurately: 06:44–07:39
• Critique of episode 8 and factual inaccuracies: 07:51–08:36
• Reflections on Carolyn and John's marriage, media narrative: 09:14–12:54
• Emotional reaction to finale/airplane scene: 13:04–14:57
• Details on the accident and its chronology: 15:17–16:42
• Lauren and Lisa Bessette, family grief, public invisibility: 17:38–20:08
• Empathy for Caroline Kennedy: 20:22–21:31
• How the tragedy affected Rory Kennedy: 21:43–22:50
• Kennedy family’s backlash to the show: 23:05–24:14
• Real vs. depicted duty/private life balance: 24:45–25:43
• The myth of “knowing what you’re getting into”: 26:13
• Guy’s reflections on the real Carolyn: 27:05–28:08
• Carolyn’s jewelry stories, potential auction, and memorabilia: 28:27–32:16
• Guy’s plans for a memoir and reflections on clients: 32:19–34:19
• Guy reconnects with Carol Radziwill: 34:19–35:10

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Takeaway

This episode offers a deeply personal, myth-busting perspective on Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy through the memories of someone who knew her best. Guy Clark asserts her warmth, authenticity, and struggles with public life were far more nuanced—and loving—than pop culture often depicts. Both hosts highlight the profound toll public misconceptions, grief, and media attention can have, while celebrating Carolyn’s quiet legacy and urging listeners to approach historic narratives with empathy and curiosity.

Transcript

[Ali Jackson]

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[Guy Clark]

Access to affordable credit helps me pay my employees, but I don't really need it. Inflation is killing me, but who cares? Big retailers are making record profits.

[Ali Jackson]

That's why we support the Durbin Marshall credit card bill.

[Guy Clark]

See, banks and credit unions help small businesses make payroll. This bill would cut the vital resources

[Ali Jackson]

they need while increasing megastore profits. They deserve it, don't they?

[Rachel]

Tell Congress, stop the Durbin Marshall money grab for corporate megastores paid for by the Electronic Payments Coalition guy. Thank you so much for joining me again. Hi, Rachel, on Misunderstood. How have you been in the last couple weeks?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, I've had quite a ride with you, basically. Yeah, we've had a lot of followers. And three and a half million people have viewed my Instagram.

[Rachel]

Yes, at least because they viewed mine, too. They viewed the YouTube, all sorts of things that are just not on your Instagram. You've been on Inside Edition. You've been in People magazine. You're getting offers from all sorts of media ever since you were on the show a couple weeks ago to talk about your relationship with Carolyn Bessette, which is fascinating. I mean, are you surprised?

[Guy Clark]

It's still bizarre for me, you know, because I've kept quiet for so long for these 30 years, and now all of a sudden I feel like I'M been sprung into the limelight over this. So it's just a small snippet of what she encountered. Can you imagine what it would be like for them now with all these social medias?

[Rachel]

I was gonna ask you that. I forgot to ask you that last time. What do you think she of all that's being made of her right now, from the memes that everyone's making and the girls, you know, trying to replicate her fashion to, you know, the fact that there's a documentary out about her or a docu series that people are just absolutely enthralled with.

[Guy Clark]

I think in one way, she would love the fashion part, that she wouldn't understand it completely because she didn't really try too hard. But that's kind of the point. It was effortless for her. And now here all these people are trying so hard to look like her, to be effortless and, you know, wear her lip gloss color, and it was bizarre.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

So how would she feel about it? First of all, I know she wouldn't like the social media aspect at all. She'd probably have a fake name on there just so she could watch her friends. You know, it's kind of like what my sister does. The same thing.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

They don't believe in it, but they want to know where we are at all times.

[Rachel]

Right, right, right. Of course. So what do you think she would think of the fact that there's this new show out, it's been put in nine parts, and that everybody has been waiting every Thursday night for every episode? Like, would she think that that's fascinating or. She'd be horrified.

[Guy Clark]

I think it would be a combination of the two. Remember that when she was in the limelight, she was collecting every article ever written about her and putting in a scrapbook. Did I tell you that? I don't remember.

[Rachel]

I think you started to mention that.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. So. And I saw them, and I was horrified and delighted at the same time. Because here's a woman that didn't like the press, but here she was collecting everything because she knew that later on when she was old and things were different, maybe things were calmer, she'd like to look back and say, hey, look what. Look what they thought of me. Look what they said. You know, it's kind of silly.

[Rachel]

Well, and it's interesting that you say that, because let's talk about the perception that she's been portrayed as a certain person in. In this series. I think people have called her complicated, isolated, struggling under pressure, even cold and cold in her representation. Of her relationship with John. Do you think that that is accurate?

[Guy Clark]

No, that is not accurate. I was. Okay, so just to give you a time frame, I left Cartier June 11, 1999. They died July. I forget the date. July, something. So a month later, basically. So in that timeframe, I spoke to her. We wrote to each other, you know, not. Not in emails, but in actual letters because it just was too complicated. So she was going through machinations of a new marriage. And it's not something that's unusual. I mean, you going through this with a new marriage, you know, you have to find your footing with each other, you know, And I think part of the issue is what we remember is the last bit of their life right before they died. And that's what I don't want people to remember. I want people to remember her particularly as the kind, generous, soulful, embracing human being that she was. She wasn't cold. I mean, if you look at her, she's always got her head down. Okay, that's not. That's a self protection thing. That's nothing more than that.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Okay.

[Rachel]

Do you think it was a little insecurity, too?

[Guy Clark]

Well, I think she was insecure in the limelight.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

I mean, being thrown into the limelight as the most beautiful, the most fashionable, and the one that married the most handsome man and most eligible bachelor in

[Rachel]

the world, It's a lot to live up to.

[Guy Clark]

It's a lot to live up to. And she knew it. But you know what? I think she did a damn good job. I mean, I saw her a lot privately. I never saw her unless we were at George together. I never saw her with other people. It's just she and I, we had lunch together. I was in her apartment, you know, this kind of thing. It was always just her. She needed that in order to feel grounded and not to feel like she's, you know, always on display.

[Rachel]

Yeah. By the way, speaking of her apartment, you talked about it last time. The apartment is shown more and more throughout the series. Is that what her apartment looked like?

[Guy Clark]

A little bit. I mean, when you, when you got. I think I spoke of this the last time when you get off the elevator. There was a bedroom to the right and like an office bedroom. I think John used it as his office. Okay. And then to the left again, that part was pretty similar.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

The open kitchen, it was loft like. It was loft like, high ceilings. The kitchen to the right, the dining and then the living room and then a den off the kitchen.

[Rachel]

That was very simple. I mean, it wasn't totally decorated.

[Guy Clark]

Oh, no, no. It was really simple. And John had these unusual chairs that he loved. I think I thought they were Bahamian, but they were Caribbean in nature. Those were his favorite chairs. I wish I had a picture of them.

[Rachel]

Like, colorful.

[Guy Clark]

No, no, wood.

[Rachel]

Oh, wood.

[Guy Clark]

Wood, yeah. Just very simple. The decorations were minimal. We'll just put it that way.

[Rachel]

Yeah. They came across in the show that was.

[Guy Clark]

And I think they did a good job there. But it was only one floor. They had it as a loft. Second loft. But that wasn't true.

[Rachel]

Got it. Okay. The season finale came out last night and we both watched it, and I know we want to talk about that. I want to talk about episode eight for a minute. I hated it. I know you did. I want to talk about it.

[Guy Clark]

That's a strong word, but I really didn't dislike it immensely. It wasn't true. It wasn't.

[Rachel]

Well, tell people that are listening what season. What episode eight was.

[Guy Clark]

Episode eight was basically them arguing the

[Rachel]

whole time and her never leaving her apartment for a year.

[Guy Clark]

Right. Which is totally not true. I mean, it was not true. I was with her. You know, I did go to their apartment during that time, but also I was with her eating out for lunch. And, you know, I did run into them at a party. So they. They were out. And I was seeing her at George.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

I was seeing him at George, so. And Rosemarie Terenzi, you know, that whole group, they were all there. So it wasn't like she was avoiding the world.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

I think that's.

[Rachel]

So it wasn't true that she disappeared for a full year.

[Guy Clark]

She did not disappear.

[Rachel]

And where media was saying things like, where is she? Are you getting a divorce? Because I do remember the media started to have a narrative.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, they did.

[Rachel]

And they have, you know, resurrected that a little bit now to talk about the place they were at. Because as we get into the ninth episode, the finale, it shows them either coming back together after some sort of separation, or what it depicts here is that they are kind of working on things after they've had a hard time. And it almost seems like they've had a hard time because of her inability to function within his world.

[Guy Clark]

Absolutely true. That is true. I mean, she had a hard time understanding what was needed of her in this new world that she was thrown into. Now everybody says, guy, how could she not know what she was getting into?

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

I'm sorry. Unless you're in it yourself, how would you know what that feels like and what's expected of you, John? Just expected her, as I knew, because she told me, expected her to just go with the flow, you know, that she was, you know, she was a confident, strong woman. But this really took a toll on her, as we all know. But it wasn't something that, from my understanding, that was constant. It was. It fluctuates. So, you know, when there's a thousand paparazzi thrusting cameras in your face, of course you're going to be upset and you're going to retract, and maybe that'll last a day or so. But then she's out there clipping magazine articles about herself, good and bad, and enjoying that process. So it wasn't a constant thing.

[Rachel]

Well, as somebody who's been through a sliver of what she went through, and having 50 paparazzi outside my house for a while, you do learn to live with it. You learn to have a relationship with them. You know, it's almost a little bit of a security thing, too. They are protecting you, right?

[Guy Clark]

You learn how to navigate this whole thing.

[Rachel]

And so I was thrust into something and had to navigate it. But also where it becomes hard is when you see a narrative in the media talking about you a certain way, or if paparazzi are throwing questions at you that are negative and nasty, that's when it gets really hard, because those are the things you have to read and feel terrible about yourself, or you're embarrassed that your family's seeing it, or your friends, you. And then you feel really isolated. So that I think I understand, but I didn't understand the perception that she married him and it almost seemed like she didn't want to and he kind of forced her to, and.

[Guy Clark]

No, that's not the case. Okay, so explain that they both were madly in love with each other.

[Rachel]

Okay. It doesn't really show that.

[Guy Clark]

It does not. It does not. And I think if you asked anybody that knew them, you'll see that's the same answer.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

Of course, every marriage and every new marriage has blips and turns in the road, and you find your way. You know, it's not something that, you know, everybody can understand that. And it's not something that's unusual. It's just that their blip came at the end of their life, right? And so that's what we remember. Can you imagine if they had lived to be 60 something now, right? 64 or whatever, that wouldn't even be remembered because they would have had all this other beautiful life since then to annihilate that little moment. And that's what's missing is. And that's why I came out, basically, to try to get people to understand who she really was. I don't have that much insight on John. Cause I only met him, I don't know, five or six times. But with her, I mean, you know, the guy that portrayed John in the show did a fantastic job.

[Rachel]

Fantastic.

[Guy Clark]

I think he nailed it. But the girl that played Carolyn's part didn't have a lot to work with, Meaning she didn't have a lot of videos and interviews. All that stuff like we had with John since he was born. Right. We just didn't have that with Carolyn. So I can see where she had difficulty trying to emulate her.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

I think she did a fair job with what she had, but she didn't get the personality. She didn't get the empathy, the kindness, the generosity that was completely not there.

[Rachel]

Yeah, interesting. So in the season finale, people are saying it was tasteful, respectful, emotional. What are your thoughts?

[Guy Clark]

I had a really hard time. Sorry. All these years later, after watching it, I realized that I put Carolyn in a box to try to forget. You know, you were my first call after I watched it this morning. And to be honest with you, I was laying in bed watching this morning, and I shook uncontrollably. It was horrifying, I think, because I had to live through it again. And then it made me realize that I had literally put her in a box. I had to put all that stuff in a safety deposit box and forgot about it for, you know, 30 years or whatever. 27 years.

[Rachel]

Yeah. So it was the most emotional part. Watching the plane scene or. What was it for you?

[Guy Clark]

The. The plane was hard. I mean, I grew up in small planes. My whole family had planes. I took lessons. I didn't do very well, but I took lessons. So I kind of understood. I was watching the instruments and. Sorry, I was getting kind of emotional. And I just realized while that was happening that I had put her in a box. And that's what really moved me, because I thought, Jesus, I compartmentalized this whole thing. You do that to protect yourself. And then I was protecting her all this time too, in the process. So it's kind of weird to think about these things all these years later. Yeah, the whole thing was hard. Okay. I love the part where they kind of got back together and the therapist and all that stuff was interesting. I don't remember any of that to be hon with you. I talked to her, I don't know, the week or so before. So I didn't have any of that insight. So it was good to watch for me, but it was hard.

[Rachel]

Yeah. The part about the plane I found to be very sad, the thought. And I know I've heard people talk about it after that. They probably didn't know that they were about to have an impact, but they knew something. Or he, John, must have known that something was wrong and probably was somewhat frightened.

[Guy Clark]

I'm sure they were petrified going into that fog. I've been in that kind of fog with my mom and my stepfather. It's not easy, but they were instrument rated. Even with that, it's difficult. He was not at that point, John.

[Rachel]

So he could only fly for people that are listening visually. He could only fly visually. And they show him calling earlier in the day and finding out what the weather was and that it was supposed to be complete, you know, perfect vision.

[Guy Clark]

Right. And he said in that show that he was flying vfr. That's a visual.

[Rachel]

Oh, okay.

[Guy Clark]

Okay.

[Rachel]

So. Oh, so he was explaining that to somebody. That that's how he was.

[Guy Clark]

Well, no, when you call in for your flight, you have to say I'm flying VFR or I'm flying, you know, whatever. Okay. You have to be specific.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

About what your, I guess your level is.

[Rachel]

Oh, I see.

[Guy Clark]

You see what I'm saying?

[Rachel]

Okay. So. And that person on the phone thought it was fine because the weather looked right. Right.

[Guy Clark]

But he was supposed to take off at like 6:00'. Clock. Took up at like 8:20 or 8:30 or something like that.

[Rachel]

Yeah. So that was the other thing. Unless I missed it because I went to the bathroom or something. I didn't see that there was any hoopla about her running late, was there in the show?

[Guy Clark]

No, no.

[Rachel]

So people don't know that unless they show up.

[Guy Clark]

They showed her getting her nails done and all the paparazzi outside.

[Rachel]

What I did notice is that they made a continuity mistake. I don't know if you noticed. So they show her getting her nails done and then they show her in the car pulling up and her nails were not done.

[Guy Clark]

I know, I noticed that.

[Rachel]

So I thought that was interesting. No, of course.

[Guy Clark]

Good for you to pick that up. Yeah.

[Rachel]

But as a person that, you know, Ryan Murphy, I would have thought that they would have fixed that. But you know, anyway, so watching those instruments made me anxious and it was.

[Guy Clark]

It made me anxious too.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Because we all knew what was coming. I can't imagine what they felt for that last second. I hope I never do feel that kind of fear.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Because you know, that's horrifying Horrifying. It was horrifying for me to watch this episode. I. I needed to, from my own cleanliness of spirit. You know, I think I needed to watch it because when they passed away, I literally, the only thing I did was write a check to her charity and write a note to her mom about her and Lauren and I put it aside.

[Rachel]

Yeah. What do you think about that? So they show the mom and they show her being angry and her.

[Guy Clark]

Rightfully so.

[Rachel]

Yeah. And. And that she's lost two children, one of which the world doesn't really know anything about. And no one really cared, it seemed they didn't pay. Nobody paid attention to, to this poor girl, Lauren. I mean, I don't even, even in all this and all the news that's happened, I don't even remember if I've ever read what she did, who she was, if she was dating, married.

[Guy Clark]

You know, she was single. She was on Wall street, as I recall there. You know, she had a twin sister, Lisa. Lisa, who's still alive.

[Rachel]

Identical.

[Guy Clark]

I don't, I don't know that they're identical. They're. I don't know that.

[NWLC Representative]

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[Hallmarkies Podcast Host]

Do you love rom coms? Do you wish you could talk about Christmas movies year round? Then we have the perfect podcast for you. Hallmarkies podcast. Throughout the year, we cover all things romance, holiday and Hallmark, including recaps of every Hallmark show like When Calls the Heart and the Way Home. You can also get loads of bonus content covering shows like Bridgerton, Sweet Magnolias and And just like that. We are an all female group of friends who are passionate for these shows and movies and give our honest opin as well as gush over what we love so much. But that's not all. Every Monday, there are interviews with all your favorite actors, writers, directors and more. Check out Hallmarkies podcasts on all your podcast providers and on YouTube. That's Hallmarky's podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Rachel]

But isn't that interesting that we've never really heard again from Lisa or the parents? I don't even know if Carolyn's parents are alive, are they?

[Guy Clark]

You know, I thought about that this morning. I thought. I thought actually I should write her a letter. She'd. She'd have to be in her 80s at least.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Right. So.

[Rachel]

And no one. You haven't seen any interviews with their family at all?

[Guy Clark]

No, no. And I. I think there's a reason for that.

[Rachel]

Oh, probably because of a settlement.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, yes, they got a big settlement. I don't know how much it was. And rightfully so. A wrongful death settlement.

[Rachel]

To never talk about their feelings.

[Guy Clark]

I would imagine so. I imagine they've never talked about it

[Rachel]

for a reason that would make sense. The other thing that got me, that I really started crying about was Caroline's depictment in that and how devastated she was. And it made me really sad to see that emotion in that actress. Like it.

[Guy Clark]

She did a great job.

[Rachel]

She did a great job. And it really made you feel empathetic to Caroline. So many people talk shit about her.

[Guy Clark]

Why? She's just a nice woman with kids and a husband.

[Rachel]

That's not ever how she's represented. It's represented that. That she's in a marriage where she lives apart from her husband. That she got the ugly stick. That she's boring, that she's. You know what I'm saying? Like, people write terrible things about her.

[Guy Clark]

But she was ambassador to Japan, wasn't she?

[Rachel]

Smart woman, you know, and chose her path of. Of trying to be private in a very public world. And having been dealt a ton of loss. And I understood, like, when it continues.

[Guy Clark]

Her daughter just died.

[Rachel]

Did I know that her daughter just died?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel]

When?

[Guy Clark]

Like a month ago of. I think it was cancer.

[Rachel]

Oh, my gosh.

[Guy Clark]

She just had a baby recently. I mean, just.

[Rachel]

Oh, my God. Terrible. So the loss that this woman has

[Guy Clark]

gone through is endless.

[Rachel]

It's endless.

[Guy Clark]

Endless. And she still perseveres in her own way. God bless her.

[Rachel]

God bless her is right. And it made me think about her in a different light, to be honest with you. Cause I never really thought about it

[Guy Clark]

because nobody thinks about her, which is good for her.

[Rachel]

Yes. It's what she wants.

[Guy Clark]

She deserves.

[Rachel]

Yeah, she deserves a lot of compassion during this. And then what it also made me think of is Rory. I wonder what Rory. How does Rory get through the.

[Guy Clark]

I often wondered. I think the wedding still took place.

[Rachel]

I was gonna ask you if, you know.

[Guy Clark]

You know what? I thought about that today again, for the first time in 30 years or whatever.

[Rachel]

Ellie, can you Google if that happened? Rory was so. For people that are listening Rory was the family member of John.

[Guy Clark]

Cousin.

[Rachel]

The cousin. And they were flying to Hyannis Port.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. For the family wedding.

[Rachel]

For the wedding of Rory that weekend when they were killed.

[Guy Clark]

Right. So they were dropping off Lauren in Martha's Vineyard.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

For the weekend.

[Rachel]

And then they were going to take off again. Right. And go, oh, wow.

[Guy Clark]

So, I mean, can you imagine? There's no way this could have happened because the fog rolled in to Martha's Vineyard, and they. That means they would never have been able to get to Hyannisport.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

So what would have happened? I don't know.

[Rachel]

So Rory had a wedding two weeks later in Greece, and they canceled it that weekend. So, I mean, how. Obviously, how terrible.

[Guy Clark]

Obviously, how could you have a wedding? And how does that make Rory feel going on with her life, having had her cousin and his wife and her sister die on their way to her wedding? Yeah, I mean, that's.

[Rachel]

And I'm also curious if that marriage lasted.

[Guy Clark]

Good question.

[Rachel]

I mean, I wonder if there was a, you know, a black magic type of feeling, you know, going into that as well. Can't imagine. So there's been a lot of backlash on this show.

[Guy Clark]

Yes.

[Rachel]

The Kennedy circle has come out and said that they are completely, you know, they. They do not support it. They didn't like how either one of them was depicted. I think they really stick with their feelings on John and how he was depicted. Speaking of that, you know, I find it interesting because he comes off as somebody that you really want to like, but he comes off kind of cocky in parts, but he also comes off a little dumb, you know, like he can't. You know, it's kind of do, do, do, do, do, do. Dr. Can't get it together and his friend is quitting on him at George because he can't get his shit together. And. And then it also seems like he has his priorities mixed up because he wants to go to all these events, which I don't know if I bought into that. I feel like his whole life he's had to do that, and that's a responsibility that he felt like he needed to do. And just because someone comes into your life doesn't mean you change that. I mean, he was trying to keep a magazine together. He has as or he had aspirations for himself, not to just be a husband. Right. I mean, I think we all knew that. And I don't think that somebody should take that away from him just because he had places to be that his priority wasn't having lunch with his wife.

[Guy Clark]

But let me Give you a little insight on something. Okay. So, you know, Hillary Clinton ran for Senate seat in New York. John had considered that, but because Hillary, what, the ex first lady was going to run, he didn't do it. He didn't challenge or anything. So myself and a few girlfriends of mine, we had an art event and raised like $3 million for Hillary's Senate campaign. Okay. It's a lot of money back then.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

For a Senate campaign. Okay. So that we were invited to this private little cocktail reception in somebody's apartment on Fifth Avenue. My sister came as my date and we went and John and Carolyn were there. And they arrived after we did. And Carolyn said, you know, we kissed hello and blah, blah, blah, and talked. And she said, john, can we just go out for a burger with Guy and Claudia? Do we have to do this? Because they were. We were still standing in the lobby of this big apartment. We hadn't really gone in yet. And Chuck Schumer was on a video and all these mucky mugs were there, but it was a small group. And she. And he said, carolyn, we have to do this.

[Rachel]

Right?

[Guy Clark]

And she just said, I'm so sorry. I'd so much rather be with Guy and Claudia, you know. Yeah, just having a burger, of course. You know, and so there's the exact example of what you're saying. Yeah, it was duty versus what she would rather do.

[Rachel]

Right. You know, and that's gotta put a strain on a marriage because you could see both sides.

[Guy Clark]

Yes, of course.

[Rachel]

And I do wanna get back to the question that you said a lot of people ask you. How could she not know they did date for three years before they got engaged or married? And it's not like she didn't see how much attention she was getting when it came out that she was the girlfriend. So it did seem, especially in the episodes at the end in 8 and 9. 7 8, 9, that she couldn't handle it, that she didn't like it, that she felt like she was sold a bill, you know, a bad bill of

[Guy Clark]

goods, you know, like she wasn't sold anything. Let me just say that she wasn't told or sold anything. She fell in love with a man. And when you do, you take everything that comes with him. His family, his job, his life. Some things are easier than others, you know, that you just got married.

[Rachel]

Of course. And there are parts that make you feel isolated, which is truly natural. And I think it was just heightened because of the situation she was in.

[Guy Clark]

Probably. I agree with that.

[Ali Jackson]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

So all in all, now that this series is done. What do you think about it in general now, as somebody who's known her and the big question is, like, we've all, you know, watched the story, but now we wanna know the truth.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel]

People want to know what's real, what's not, what we should. What's the takeaway about Carolyn in general?

[Guy Clark]

Okay, so with all these millions of views I've had on my Instagram, a lot of people are asking me this question. What was she really like? We hear you talking about her, but is there something you haven't said? Is there more insight you can give us? And all I can say is I only knew the part of her that was caring, kind, generous, and empathetic to a point of a fault, almost. I mean, you know, the gifts she's given my mother and. And the note she's written me and the note she's written my mother, someone she never met because she felt empathetic towards her and. And knew that she'd lost a child. Now, what a twist of fate that is. Then, you know, Carolyn's mother loses two children. And I always felt remorse that I didn't do more for her, but I wanted for the mother. I wanted to give her space. And if I could right now, I'd hug her constantly, you know?

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

What else can you do?

[Rachel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Did I answer that question?

[Rachel]

You did. Okay, you did. And today guy brought in the earrings that. That Caroline had bought his mom. And I know I've seen you do a couple posts and we've collaborated on some, but explain them a little bit as we're looking at.

[Guy Clark]

So they're. There are three colors of gold. I don't know if you can see this on. You have to do it close. There are three colors of gold with a clip and a post. And they're just a little huggy from Cartier in the rolling ring motif. They're quite. They're quite beautiful and simple. And then, so a lot of people

[Rachel]

ask me, do they still make this?

[Guy Clark]

They make a version of that. It's not exactly the same, but it's pretty much similar. Yeah, but most people are really asking me about the watch that she's always seen wearing. And it was a sterling silver Cartier Lamas de Cartier tank watch. And this is mine. I actually have this. Hers was on a black strap, but that's what it was. It was a sterling silver watch. Everyone thinks it's gold. That was one of those fancy watches that belonged to the Kennedys forever. No, no, no. She didn't want that. She was gifted. As I told you at a Geneva dinner, a solid gold tank francaise on a gold bracelet, the ladies size. And that's why she brought it in to Cartier. She just didn't want it. She tried to give it back to me and she's like, I don't want this, just take it back. And I think that's why I gave her a store credit. And it was that store credit that she used for the watch and the earrings that she gave my mom. This necklace that I'm wearing.

[Rachel]

Talk about the necklace. So Guy, for people that are listening and not watching, Guy is wearing a single solitaire diamond. Is that how you would.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, it's very simple. It's on a platinum chain. It's a little less than a carrot. So it was part of her trousseau basically that John gave her. And I redesigned the jewelry into something that she could wear. A three stone ring, a pair of diamond studs and three pendants. The pendants were originally supposed to go to her and her two sisters. Oh. But she decided to give it to my mom. So she gave it to me, I gave it to my mom and my mom wore it for like 20 something years. And my mom just gave it back to me. So I'm wearing it because I feel like it's part of her, you know. And so I tried to give all this memorabilia to Cartier for their museum. They have a huge private museum in Geneva and it travels and all that stuff. And they have an archives department, all that. And since I worked there for 12 years and I know a lot of the people that are still executives there, I thought, this is something we should do. And my mom agreed, give the earrings and the pendant and all the paperwork that I have to Cartier. So the other day Cartier called me and they said after a year and a half of talking to them, this started a year and a half ago. They said, you know, we really think you should just put it up for auction and maybe we'll bid on it. I was like, what does that mean? Exactly.

[Hallmarkies Podcast Host]

Right?

[Rachel]

What does it mean? I don't know.

[Guy Clark]

I thought maybe they just want the publicity for it. And so I don't know what to do. What do you think I should do?

[Rachel]

Well, it depends on the sentimental value that you have, you know, but after I'm gone. Well, I was just gonna care. I was just about to say, I

[Guy Clark]

mean, I'm not 20 years old.

[Rachel]

You don't have. You're not passing it down to a daughter, right? So it doesn't make sense. Your mother is the only one who would care, really. Or Harrison. But Harrison's maybe not gonna wear it.

[Guy Clark]

It's not big enough. Right.

[Rachel]

Exactly. But I think that it might be interesting to see, you know, who cares about it enough to pay for it. I mean, that could be interesting.

[Guy Clark]

I could.

[Rachel]

I mean, eventually, maybe you wanna put it in the hands of someone that really loves that and will honor that legacy as opposed to just having it sort of disappear into Never Neverland.

[Guy Clark]

I mean, if I'd left it in a bank vault, someone would just throw it away or sell it for scrap or something. So I don't know. I hope somebody writes in, tells me what to do.

[Rachel]

Yeah, that's a good point. Maybe somebody who's listening might reach out to guy on his Instagram. We'll put it on our. Our show. Notes about their thoughts on what you should do. Have you done a post about that yet?

[Guy Clark]

No.

[Rachel]

That's a good idea for a post.

[Guy Clark]

That's a good idea.

[Rachel]

I'll do that.

[Guy Clark]

Let me know what you want me to do.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Wait. I have something else to say. Okay, go ahead. So a lot of people in writing to me and saying, you need to write a book.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

So I did start a book basically on my life in the jewelry world. Because it's continued to evolve since I'm a child, basically.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

And this has been a really big part of it now, you helping me with this and all this conversation. So I am writing a book, but it was a book that started from a different point of view.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

Do you think I should write a book?

[Rachel]

I think you should write a book. But I think you have so many good stories. It doesn't just have to be about your relationship with Karen.

[Guy Clark]

No, it's not. In fact, it isn't. It's about all my other clients.

[Rachel]

It could be a few chapters or a chapter.

[Guy Clark]

That's true.

[Rachel]

Or whatever.

[Guy Clark]

And it already was.

[Rachel]

Yeah.

[Guy Clark]

But this whole thing, it changes the scope of at least part of it for sure. Yeah.

[Rachel]

And gives you some press in advance, you know, so that people want more.

[Guy Clark]

Right.

[Rachel]

And can listen and have it in a format. They can read and consume it that way as opposed to just listening to a conversation. When you write, you'll think of all sorts of stories that you didn't remember or just your thoughts, your inner monologue. Exactly.

[Guy Clark]

That's what's been happening. Like, I wrote this whole thing about Elizabeth Taylor. She was my client for years, and she was fabulous and so tiny with such a Big head.

[Rachel]

Oh, really?

[Guy Clark]

Yeah, she had, like, a TV head. You know, people with bigger heads look good on tv.

[Rachel]

You ever notice that? Yes, I did notice that. But, like, did she have big hair or. She actually had a big face?

[Guy Clark]

Both.

[Rachel]

Interesting.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Huh. And big eyes and skinny body.

[Guy Clark]

Yeah. And big boobs and a little tiny person.

[Rachel]

And short.

[Guy Clark]

Short, like 5ft tall.

[Rachel]

Who else was a good client?

[Guy Clark]

Oh.

[Rachel]

Or an interesting client.

[Guy Clark]

I only talk about the ones that are deceased.

[Rachel]

Oh, okay. Well, are there any more that are deceased that you could talk about?

[Guy Clark]

Well, of course. Jackie Onassis.

[Rachel]

Right.

[Guy Clark]

Her sister, Lee Radziwill. Okay. That whole contingent of Upper east side ladies, they were all pretty much my clients.

[Rachel]

So let's talk about the Raswell family for a second. I know you've been in touch with Carol since.

[Guy Clark]

Yes. Just because of your podcast. And I. I did.

[Rachel]

She listened. Do you know?

[Guy Clark]

I don't know.

[Rachel]

Okay.

[Guy Clark]

But my. My snippets on my Instagram. She's seen.

[Rachel]

She has.

[Guy Clark]

Okay. Yeah. Again, there was a connection with a woman who does something on Instagram called the Two misses. Okay. And she and I connected about a year ago, and we've been talking about this kind of thing. And so she and Carol had connected. I don't know how, but because of that snippet Carol wrote out, you know, she wrote to me and said, oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God, that was you, Guy. Carolyn always told me about you, which was really sweet. And so we got talking about these toe rings.

[Rachel]

Yeah, tell everybody. I can't remember. We talked about it in the last episode. I know. I've heard this story. So. Okay, so thanks for listening to my part two interview with Guy Clark. If you want to watch the full interview with Guy Clark, head over to our Patreon. Patreon. The link is in the description below.

[Ali Jackson]

If you're a podcast host, listen up. This one's for you. My name is Ali Jackson. I'm the host of Finding Mr. Height, a dating and relationship podcast that I've been doing for four years now, sharing my positive and practical approach to dating that's built on my own life experience. And I wanted to share another experience that I've had, my secret behind monetizing my show. It's called Red Circle. And I was just telling my colleague about how much I love their platform. With Red Circle, not only am I getting a seamless hosting experience, but I also love the support I receive in ad sales. It's not just typical ad sales either. It's targeted opportunities based on my show and my life. And the platform is super simple. You just set your preferences and Red Circle matches you with sponsors that align with your show. You can vet every opportunity and their platform gives you great analytics. More recently too, my Red Circle team has brought me opportunities outside of my podcast on social media to really augment the podcast partnerships. Bring them full circle. I just can't recommend them enough. If you want to give it a try, go to redcircle.com to get your free trial. That's redcircle.com for a free trial. This is Mike Volo of Lexicon Valley

[Guy Clark]

and I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words?

[Ali Jackson]

Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language?

[Guy Clark]

Hey, us too. So join us on Lexicon Valley to chew over the history, culture and many mysteries of English plus some rice cracks.

[Ali Jackson]

Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.