Audie Cornish & Ari Shapiro’s journey from radio to podcasts — and what amateurs can learn from pros

Summary

Mixed Signals from Semafor Media Episode: Audie Cornish & Ari Shapiro’s journey from radio to podcasts — and what amateurs can learn from pros Date: May 22, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Max Tani and Ben Smith sit down with Audie Cornish and Ari Shapiro—former co-hosts of NPR’s "All Things Considered"—to discuss their bold transition from legacy radio to their new, looser, and more personal podcast "Engagement Party" on CNN. The conversation explores how their journalistic backgrounds inform their podcasting, what pros know that amateurs miss, the changing landscape of media consumption, and the enduring need for adaptability and authenticity. The episode also dives into the challenges facing legacy media institutions like NPR and reflects on personal reinvention in a rapidly changing media world.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning from NPR to Podcasting

• Leaving the Olympus of Legacy Media

  • Neither Audie nor Ari felt tethered to the "legacy chair" of NPR; both describe restlessness and a drive to adapt to new landscapes.
    • Ben Smith: “These two were never that. They were both pretty always kind of restless and looking out from the Olympian peak of NPR at this very radically changing landscape.” [02:01]

• A New Approach with "Engagement Party"

  • Their new show is more relaxed, focused on pop culture, and draws from the off-mic energy that NPR didn’t historically broadcast.
    • Audie: “It gives us a chance to be the kind of people with each other that we used to be in the All Things Considered studio. When our mics were off... And that's what we want to [bring].” [08:32]
  • The show’s pitch: “We want people to feel like they're in on a private conversation between the two of us... give people a laugh, give people insight, something to talk about at the dinner party over the weekend.” – Ari [16:58]

2. The Realities of Professional vs. Amateur Podcasting

• Democratization of Audio

  • Audie challenges the idea that only professionals can produce high-quality content:
    • “Everyone is a pro now... We come to this space like everyone else...” [04:38]
  • But both agree that everyone benefits from editing.
    • Ari: “Everybody, and I mean everybody, benefits from an editor.” [06:06]
    • Audie: “I’m a super snob about that... embrace a critical ear!" [06:34]

• Authenticity vs. Polish

  • The “messy” stuff is often more authentic and engaging than polished, over-produced audio.
    • Ari: “You have to know that often the messy stuff is the best stuff. The goal isn't to make it the most polished version... It’s to make it the most engaging, authentic version.” [07:04]

3. Building New Media Personas

• From Journalistic Neutrality to Personal Voice

  • Ari and Audie admit their NPR roles came with constraints, but each platform has its own expectations. The key is adapting, not resenting those limits.
    • Ari: “...any journalism platform is going to ask you to bring a certain part of yourself that’s not necessarily 100% of yourself.” [19:21]

• Finding and Using Your True Voice

  • Authenticity is paramount in new media, even if it means being polarizing.
    • Audie: “The thing you have to be the most is yourself. And anything less is actually a huge problem. Like, it just doesn’t work or resonate.” [26:37]

4. Adapting in a Changing Media Landscape

• Perpetual Reinvention

  • Both hosts have embraced pivots as essential to long careers in journalism.
    • Ari: “You can't have a long-term career in journalism unless you're constantly pivoting.” [15:09]
    • Audie: “If you don't try stuff, you are dust. You are left in the smoke of people who are innovating.” [15:39]

• Curation vs. Algorithm

  • Audie notes how the old variety show/magazine model is under pressure as the audience increasingly prefers algorithmic feeds over curated menus.
    • “That is not a newspaper beat system… your feed… is your uncle's wedding, the war in Gaza, a joke about Colbert, and something that's not safe for work…” [13:05]

5. The Challenge and Opportunity for Legacy Media

• Can NPR Survive?

  • Ari is “encouraged” by NPR’s growing member donations, seeing hope as the organization transitions away from federal funding; longevity depends on independence and trust.
    • “If NPR can get through the next couple of years to this transition… then its future is incredibly bright because it doesn’t answer to anyone other than journalists.” [33:43]

• Legacy Institutions in the Age of AI

  • Audie is bullish on the value of human verification and trusted brands as artificial intelligence spreads.
    • “People will find that certain legacy names are something they sort of cling to in the AI information storm.” [35:28]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Democratic Roots of Public Media:
  Audie: “It has always been a kind of democratic… way ideas are generated... the people who are rolling on tape way back in the— they're just as good editorially as the people on camera.” [04:38]

• On Editing:
  Ari: “Everybody, and I mean everybody, benefits from an editor… Even when Audie and I were in the highly edited… context of… All Things Considered…” [06:06]

• On Legacy vs. Authenticity in New Media:
  Audie: “I can't cosplay as a 60 year old forever. What am I going to do when I am 60, like, I actually have to be myself.” [09:38]

• On Divisiveness and Engagement:
  Ben: “The most engaging thing is the most divisive thing… the architecture of those social platforms really created that.” [28:55]

• On Being Yourself vs. Being Polarizing:
  Audie: “You have to do what comes naturally to you… the thing you have to be the most is yourself. And anything less is actually a huge problem.” [26:37]

• On the Importance of Risk and Experimentation:
  Audie: “If you don't try stuff, you are dust. Like, you are left in the smoke of people who are innovating.” [15:39]

• On the Enduring Value of Legacy Outlets in an AI Age:
  Audie: “People will find that certain legacy names are something they sort of cling to in the AI information storm.” [35:28]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:35] – What pros know that amateurs miss about audio production
• [06:06] – The universal need for editing and honest feedback in podcasting
• [08:32] – The off-mic energy Audie and Ari bring to their podcast
• [11:09] – Why longtime NPR fans should check out their new show
• [13:05] – Reflection on the changing media landscape and the rise of the “feed”
• [15:09] – Why perpetual pivoting is the hallmark of modern journalism
• [16:58] – What makes "Engagement Party" different: focus, audience participation, and tone
• [19:21] – On the limits and freedoms in different journalistic platforms
• [26:37] – Authenticity in the era of online personalities and polarizing voices
• [28:55] – How social media platforms turned engagement into division
• [33:43] – The future of NPR without federal support

---

Final Reflections (Hosts' Takeaways)

• Both Ben and Max are struck by the way Audie and Ari have chosen to experiment and evolve, refusing to let legacy jobs become career endpoints.
  • “You do look… at the most successful podcasters… it's people who have a lot of television experience, a lot of broadcast experience, and it is to some degree just… the economics have shifted…” – Ben [45:21]
  • “I'm not gonna underestimate skilled broadcasters’ ability to transfer mediums... But… it has to be good, it has to be interesting.” – Max [44:29]

---

Summary

This episode is a deep dive into the mindset, skills, and resilience required to transcend the traditional boundaries of media careers. Audie Cornish and Ari Shapiro illuminate the behind-the-scenes realities of podcasting versus radio, the democratization and fragmentation of the media landscape, the necessity of constant innovation, and the continued power of authenticity. For aspiring podcasters and media professionals, the conversation is both a practical masterclass and an honest look at how to stay relevant—and true to yourself—as the industry faces ongoing, seismic change.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to another episode of the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore Media, where we are talking to all of the most important and interesting people shaping our new media age. I'm Max Tawny. I'm the media editor here at Semaphore, and with me, as always, is Semaphore's editor in chief, Ben Smith.

[B]

Ben?

[A]

Ben, you're broadcasting from an unusual place today. Looks like a. It's like a hotel room. In fact, I know it's a hotel room. Where are you?

[B]

Out in Mountain View, California. Just interviewed the guy who runs Search at Google. It's up on our YouTube page. A lot changing in media at the moment, not least the search box.

[A]

What's going on with Search?

[B]

What did he have to say? Oh, there's a new technology you may be familiar with called artificial intelligence, and they've made the search box just like vigor so that you can type your very, very long and kind of slow searching queries in.

[A]

Well, two people who many of our listeners will not have to search or look up or use artificial intelligence to discover are our guests on today's show. That's Audie Cornish and Ari Shapiro. Audie and Ari were formerly the hosts of All Things Considered on National Public Radio and now are doing something very different at cnn. They are hosting a new podcast called Engagement Party. The the first episode is actually out today. Friday, when our episode is dropping. That's a little bit of competition in the podcast space, Ben. I'm not threatened by it, but the show is a lot different than what they were doing at npr. It's looser. It's about pop culture. It's in some ways racier. I listened to the pilot episode. In the first three minutes, they're talking about gay sex on television. It's a little bit shocking and different for two people who used to be pretty buttoned up for many years in their official jobs. Ben, you knew Audie, you guys kind of go back. Is it surprising to you that they're doing this kind of racy, loose, different type of show? What's that about?

[B]

Yeah, I think there are, you know, there are some people in these big legacy jobs who just sort of become part of the chair that they're sitting in. And I think these two were never that. They were both pretty always kind of restless and looking out from the Olympian peak of NPR at this very radically changing landscape and trying to figure out how to be part of it.

[A]

Well, we want to talk to them about that. We want to ask them their perspective on some of the challenges that NPR is facing right now, from the reduction in public funding from the federal government to the kind of aging listenership and some of the challenges that come along with that. And of course, I also want to ask Ari a very specific question about reality television and his connection to the traitors, which I think many of our listeners might want to know about. But we have to take a short break. We'll be right back with Ari and Adi after this.

[B]

Hey, mixed signals listeners. If you have, like me, spent a bit of time listening to marketing podcasts, you will know that many of them are just a bit too on message filled with PR fluff and recycled talking points. That's why I'm excited by a new show from our generally quite blunt friend Josh Spanier, Google's VP of marketing. It's called Frontier cmo. It's from Think with Google. Josh is hosting unfiltered, honest conversations with the most disruptive minds in marketing and tech about what's really happening, what's failed, what's next, and the truths you need to know to stay ahead. These are your notes from the Frontier search for Frontier CMO from Think with Google, wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

[A]

Ari and Audie, I don't know if you guys, you know, are familiar with how we set up the show, but we'll have a whole intro setting this up beforehand. So we're just gonna jump right into the questions here.

[C]

I kind of wanna hear this intro though. What's in there? What's in there? Max, as someone can't imagine, maybe this

[A]

is a good place to start because we were gonna ask this question later, but I think maybe it's more relevant now, which is, you know, you guys are pros in the audio production and broadcasting format. Now. Every single person who is in media thinks that they can produce essentially a radio quality interview show or podcast. Is there stuff that you guys know that you think that a lot of podcasters and people who are doing imitation radio programs kind of don't and is it offensive?

[C]

I'm Ari, do you mind if I start?

[A]

Hit it.

[D]

Go for it.

[C]

Yeah, I just want to take issue with the premise. Everyone is a pro now. Like, that's the point. Everyone can do it. Everyone has the technical means to do it. So that's not relevant in the way it might have been a very long time ago. And even then I'd argue it wasn't that true, which is why public media in particular has so many interesting personalities in it. It has always been a kind of democratic. To the point where our video on demand chief here calls our department the. What does he call it? He calls it the, like, audio democracy or something, because it's not hierarchical. You know, the way ideas are generated, the technological stuff. The people who are rolling on tape way back in the. They're just as good editorially as the people on camera. Same thing with the producers. So I just want to say that we are not. We come to this space like everyone else, which is. This is interesting. How can I do it differently and how can I connect? We actually don't come to it like we just came off radio Mount Olympus and expect there to be people there. Cause if you did that, nobody would be there. You know what I mean? Like, that's a parade of one. It's not the way you're saying where we're kind of like, oh, look at what all these young people are doing. Hello, fellow teens. You know, in podcasting land, I don't look at it that way.

[D]

I agree with you, Audie. But I also have one thing that I do think is a pearl of wisdom, which is that everybody, and I mean everybody, benefits from an editor. Whether that means having someone before the taping saying, hey, have you thought about this aspect of it? Or having someone after the taping saying, those five minutes were kind of boring. Maybe we can lose them. Everyone, everyone benefits from an editing.

[C]

Fair. Fair. I'm a super snob about that. Like, I didn't understand why people to things on one and a half speed until I listened to some of the podcasts out there, and I was like. And rabbit icon. Like, people. Editors are not. They're a luxury, but they're not to me. Embrace it. You know, embrace a critical ear. Embrace somebody from the outside saying, actually, is this all that was, like, interesting to listen to? That's not like the.

[D]

And frankly, that applies beyond journalism, beyond podcasting. Every one of us can sometimes use a reality check from a friend or somebody on the outside saying, you might want to rethink this. Look, even when Audie and I were in the highly edited and produced context of four minute interviews on All Things Considered, we both had the experience of, after a taping, going to the producer and saying that awkward moment, that big pause and the sigh and the wait, wait, wait, you got it wrong. Keep that in. Like, you have to know that often the messy stuff is the best stuff. The goal isn't to make it the most polished version of itself. It's to make it the most engaging, authentic version of itself.

[A]

Yeah, that's a great point. See, this is why we like doing these types of interviews, is that we do actually learn a few of these things. I feel a little bit with our podcast and I think our producer Manny does a great job of this. Of like, whenever there's this kind of weird moment, I'm like, ah, we gotta get rid of this. You know, I don't wanna seem too strange or awkward or whatever with the guests, but we should, we should experiment maybe with going a little bit looser.

[C]

No, it's okay. First of all, they already know. They already know that about you, so. And they've, they bought the ticket. I mean, that's another difference, right? Like radio was tune in dials, discovery. That's not what this business is. This business is I'm coming to spend time with you. I already like you. Even if I'm giving it a shot, it's because I'm inclined to, to try it.

[D]

And frankly, that's one of the things that I think appealed to us most about creating this show engagement party for cnn is that it gives us a chance to be the kind of people with each other that we used to be in the All Things Considered studio. When our mics were off, you know, the mics would turn on and we would be these very kind of polished, curious, erudite versions of ourselves. And then the mics would turn off and we would cackle and finish each other's sentences.

[A]

We would kick our way through the

[D]

show, we would kiki our way through the show and. And that's what we want to.

[C]

Which made my sense because when the mics were off and I was sitting next to Robert Siegel, he was doing the like, London Telegraph, Times of London crossword puzzle, crossword puzzle in Penn. Like, that was him, you know what I mean? But that wasn't me and Ben. I mean, I think you know this. Like when you're coming up, especially in Washington politics, you are rewarded for cosplaying as an adult because it's the best of both worlds for editors. You're cheap, you have no family, you'll work all hours. But if we tart you up in enough lipstick, you know what I mean, and dangle it up, looks great, like

[D]

in front of you, rose color, like

[C]

you'll, you'll leap for anything, right? Like it's a great thing. But then at a certain point it's like, wait a second, what are we doing? You know what I mean? What are like, I can't cosplay as a 60 year old forever. What am I going to do when I am 60, like, I actually have to be myself. And strangely, TV has opened that up for me in a way that was really unexpected. And having Ari come back around, like, there is something extremely full circle about this moment that neither of us can get over. We keep being like, are we really doing this?

[D]

I said to Audie, I feel like CNN gave us the keys to the car, and they don't quite realize how we drive. People know that we hosted All Things Considered together for years. They might not know that we've been friends since the very beginning of our journey. In the early 2000s, we met in Boston, and we really kind of grew up together. And long, long before we were in the studio together, we were buddies who would hang out and compare notes and talk about our lives. And so this is trying to bring that energy along with the experience and credibility in news chops that everybody knows we both have.

[A]

You guys are doing a very different show with Engagement Party than you did at NPR with All Things Consider. Maybe I should start with you. What's your pitch for why people, particularly fans of, you know, what you were doing at npr, should listen to this very different type of show that you guys are doing?

[C]

Oh, that's interesting. It's funny. I don't think of people having fans at npr. I think of people being fans of npr. Right. It's like working for Marvel. You know, I'm not Captain America. They're not fans of me. They're fans of Captain America. You know, I think part of it is there was a kind of analysis and lens that is the approach to news at npr. And the running joke about it is that that lens was also applied to lots of different things of varying levels of seriousness. And I think it was satire when it was like sweaters and meatballs or maple syrup and autumn leaves. But then later on when you had something like Pop Culture Happy Hour, the NPR politics podcast, those things took that approach to other areas. And if you're from newspapers, this is very familiar. You have the art section, you have the food section, you have international. And I think for a time, especially once I left npr, people were like, oh, she is a news person. Sentence caps Times New Roman. So we've got to make her do news things. And I was kind of looking around at the landscape and being like, that doesn't matter anymore. And I'll be really short with this, but it's really important to mention I met Ben on a story my first year as host of All Things Considered. It was the first story I did with producers, on my own as an anchor. And I go to New York and I go to this newsroom, and there's Kate Nitopoulos and Stapara and all these news people who we now know as sort of viral gurus who were standing up a newsroom. Like, Ben, it was like one of your first news meetings.

[B]

You were, yes, this is BuzzFeed.

[C]

And everybody was like, is this gonna be. Is BuzzFeed gonna be a news organization?

[B]

Yeah. You were very persuasive. I really thought that you were a seasoned professional, by the way. I didn't realize.

[C]

Well, it got my gears turning. Cause you're the artist.

[B]

It was a huge deal for us. This big shot reporter from npr.

[C]

It was. It was a huge deal for you. It was a huge deal for me. Cause I even had to sell the story to npr. They were like, why do we care about some random website? And I was like, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. This is the news now. And that stuck with me for a really long time. The idea that your feed, as much as I hate that word, is your uncle's wedding, the war in Gaza, a joke about Colbert, and something that's not safe for work that is by definition the for you page, the feed, the algorithm. And that is not a newspaper beat system. And I think that this, after all these years later. Ben, it's been a minute. Here we are having a conversation where I'm doing the thing you were selling. You know what I mean? Which is like, no, no, no. All these things can be on the same page. Like, is this dress blue or silver? But also, like, here's the midterm elections, and I still have a lot of, like, respect for that ethos.

[B]

So.

[C]

Sorry to go on a tangent.

[B]

No, no, that's.

[C]

I get to say this to Ben,

[B]

you know, if I can pick up that tangent, because obviously I enjoyed those conversations. And then I guess it must have been, what, 2017, 2018. We did a Facebook watch. We sort of recruited you to host a Facebook watch show during the original pivot to video, when Facebook was throwing money around. I have a memory of you interviewing Omarosa for some reason. That's the one that I did.

[C]

I did Scaramucci.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God. What a time capsule.

[C]

Yeah. And it was an interview show. It was a pop culture interview show. Some news, some cultural figures. But even then, I think we were simpatico about the idea that there was a young, a younger audience, that really, they treat these things with equal seriousness and equal levity. And there was no reason for the news business not to.

[B]

In some sense, you've been like, pivoting to video for a while. Do you feel like.

[D]

Do you.

[C]

I mean, I've had so many pivots. It's so sad.

[D]

But what is a career in journalism if not one pivot after another One

[C]

pivot after we get. That'll be the season.

[D]

Two people in this conversation began before social media existed. So you can't have a long term career in journalism unless you're constantly pivoting. And I think the dismissiveness that some people view, that kind of constant adaptation is. Is misguided because audiences change, platforms change, the way people absorb information changes. And if you're not meeting them where

[C]

they are, you're missing the point and the business changes. If I had said, whoa, this buzzfeed thing didn't work out, I'm never doing that again, where would I be? Do you know what I mean? Like, or when people ask me about CNN plus and they're like, oh, my God. And, you know, the comps. People like, don't talk about that. But to me, I'm like, what? Like, if you don't try stuff, you are dust. Like, you are left in the smoke of people who are innovating. So I would much rather try and not necessarily become Oprah if I'm learning things and connecting with new audiences along the way. It's only been upside for me, even as it's been a roller coaster itself.

[D]

And there's something so satisfying about in midlife when you think you know what you're good at, starting out at something that you've never done before and might not be good at and experiencing the learning curve that everybody experiences early in their career. Even after you feel like you've more or less figured out where your strengths and weaknesses are, it's exciting to build new muscles.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Can you just explain the show to people who, again, are familiar with.

[C]

No, no, he's better than that. What you're doing is. Ari answered the question. Audie blew by.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That is true storytelling, listening to this.

[A]

And I was like, this is a very engaging conversation. And also, we have explained nothing to the audience. Yes.

[D]

There are a few key components. First of all, the title Engagement Party gives you a clue that we're talking about the things that we're obsessed with, that we're engaged with, that we need to process with a friend. And the friendship is another really big part of it. I want people to feel like they're in on a private conversation between the two of us. And we're talking about things that people may have heard of, may also be obsessed with, or may not be on their radar because, as Audie likes to say, the Venn diagram of what she and I are interested in is not a circ. And I hope we also bring to it the kind of rigor and context and analysis and history that people are accustomed to based on what they know of us from npr. So we want to give people a laugh, we want to give people insight, we want to give people to talk about, something to talk about at the dinner party over the weekend. Episodes are deliberately dropping on Fridays because it should be a fun listen that people can enjoy while they're doing other things. A fun listen and a fun watch because it's also on video.

[C]

And the party part is really important because it's not, I think a lot of podcasts that are hang type shows, it's a little bit closed. Like, you get to be a fly on the wall of these cool and interesting people. And sometimes that is great. You know what I mean? That's fun to do. But I've been joking that in public media, we were called hosts, not anchors, because Susan had told me that you're host of a party.

[D]

SUSAN stamberg, FOUNDING MOTHER Yes.

[C]

Yeah. It was like, oh, you have something interesting to say. Oh, you're like a business person, you know. Oh, that's funny. Wait, you're an athlete here. You come over and talk as well. And our natural inclination is to draw people in, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's not an accident I'm doing a panel show now. I think it's not an accident that Ari and his post NPR life is like moderating every interview and talk with every interesting person who sets foot on a stage right now is cause we still, we're like, come into the party. Come into the party. So it's something that we expect the audience to participate in, and we're gonna have, like, ways for them to do that.

[A]

Did you guys feel like when you were at NPR, like you were limited in and that in some ways this connection that you had off the mic was something that you kind of couldn't do on the NPR broadcast, and that was in some ways kind of limiting and that the listeners were kind of missing out on something special?

[D]

The way you describe it sounds negative. And I think that any journalism platform is going to ask you to bring a certain part of yourself that's not necessarily 100% of yourself. That is the nature of being a journalist in any context, in any way, shape or form. I mean, I would say the kind of anchor that audie is at 6:00am every weekday morning on CNN is not going to be the same as what you get from engagement party. And so sure, when we were together hosting All Things Considered, we weren't cracking jokes and dropping F bombs, but that would have been wildly inappropriate. Neither of us was angsting about the fact that we weren't able to do that because we were the inheritors of this incredible heirloom that we both really prized and valued and loved. And what we were able to bring to All Things Considered was special and necessary and essential and also true to who we are in a way that didn't include cracking jokes and dropping f bombs. And so that felt right for that platform. And this feels right for this platform.

[A]

Well, we have a lot more that we want to get to with Ari and Adi, but we have to take a short break. So we'll be right back after this.

[B]

In this week's branded segment from Think with Google, I talked with Google's VP of marketing, Josh Spanier, about the importance of venturing outside of your bubble. So, Josh, it's getting into kind of event season and we had a little trouble scheduling this call because you have been constantly on the road. What are you picking up?

[E]

Well, I have been on the road a lot. Last week I was at the Possible event, a marketing conference in Miami. The week before that, I was at Google Cloud Next, our big developer conference for Google Cloud. I learn a lot on the road, and I think one of the challenges for us marketers is that we spend too much time in the office, too much time, heads down, looking at our devices versus getting out into the real world. And I've always found that really when I get out, I get ahead.

[B]

What do you mean by getting out to get ahead?

[E]

Getting out from the world is all about education for me. At Google Cloud Next, I saw incredible new technologies. I saw AI powered robotics from Google's DeepMind. I saw conversations and listened to conversations about cryptography. Most of this goes above my head, but it makes me a better marketer, knowing it's there and picking up on the cues and the conversations around AI beyond straight marketing, so that education super helpful. I also find just that real talk happens in the real world. At the Possible Event in Miami, I met with a lot of our customers. I meet with a lot of CMOs and they tell me things that they're just not going to tell me over email or over a video conference call. Getting out Helps me get ahead. It's also important that I let my team get ahead as well. So one of the things I love to do is to think about my insights. Collect them all and write them on the plane or on the bus or on the train. Going back to home, back to the office. You do it immediately. That gives you a real time signal on what your boss really cares about, what they're interested in and what they're learning about. All this stuff just helps make me a richer, better marketer, and that helps lift the team as well.

[B]

Where can people find out more about what you've been learning?

[E]

You can watch the Google Cloud next keynote on YouTube right now. And watch out for Brandcast, GML, IO, these major Google events, which will all be live streamed over the next couple of weeks.

[B]

How do you think about. There's a very different kind of connection online. Like, I think on npr, everybody knows you, everybody likes you. People are like, curious about your name. But often it doesn't go, not everybody likes you.

[D]

No, absolutely not.

[B]

Okay, so maybe I think the very

[D]

first things you learn when you become a host is that everybody hates some of the hosts.

[C]

Really?

[D]

Some people are gonna hate you?

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Huh. I did not know that because I think of online celebrity as being fundamentally kind of polarizing. Like, people who are successful on the Internet are often very, very polarizing. If you think of, you know, I probably, like, Megyn Kelly is the embodiment of this. And I'm curious how you think about that with this show. Like, it's hard for me to think of somebody on the Internet who's successful who doesn't have real haters too.

[D]

I'm actually curious. In our very first episode, we touch on Michael Jackson. And without getting too deep into the specifics, I'm curious what the reaction to what I say about Michael Jackson in the episode is gonna be. So who knows? I may turn out to be a polarizing figure.

[C]

I would say that at npr, obviously, and in any news job originally, like just kind of throwing your opinion in there the whole time was not embraced and frankly was something people liked about it. They wanted to just know. I used to joke, like, sometimes you don't need to make a sad sounding voice for something sad because by definition the thing you're describing is sad. Like, we didn't do that work for the audience. One thing that I found differently is when I went to tv, specifically linear tv, I got a coach. Cause I was like, I don't know how to do this. You know, my face wasn't Doing what needed to be done on screen. And I didn't connect with the audience the way you need to there. And I remember at one point I said something like, well, I don't want to do that. You know, people don't like that. And the coach was like, look, this is a different ball game. If someone hates you, great. If someone loves you, great. What's important is you make them feel. And what's important is on camera, even when the sound is off, which we know, cable news, it happens that they still want to watch. And so some things that I had completely suppressed waving my hands around. You know what I mean? Like, my eyes get really big. I can't help it. I'm always fighting it. They were like, do it. You know, because you want someone to be like, oh, it's that person. And if they hate or like you, they might still tune in because they just want to be engaged with that feeling. And you're right about the Internet. The Internet takes it to the logical extreme, which is like infotainment as rage bait. It's like two things that we really didn't like separately now jam together and put on steroids. And I don't know how long that'll last. It's not guaranteed it'll last forever. I mean, the aughts period was kind of like a. There was a snark period. And then there was like, actually, we're kind of into things, and we're nice and we're earnest and we're millennials. Yay. And then now we're where we are now, where it pays to not believe in anything. But as long as you're saying it extremely loudly, on the verge of violence, that's a click in the clip's attention economy. And that is something to your point, Ben, that it's different and that, no, we can't offer you that. It's not a show about hating things. It's a show about critique, analysis. It's a show about why everyone's fired up about something. But, no, I'm not gonna make money doing what some of those other voices do. Cause it's like, not even my nature.

[D]

But, Audie, it's funny. What you're saying speaks directly to something that we talk about in the first episode, which is euphoria. And the way the two of it, Zendaya and Sydney Sweeney, have approached fame differently, whereas Zendaya is sort of being this aspirational figure who appeals to everyone. And Sydney Sweeney's approach to fame is much more. If you're talking about me, I'm winning. Whether you're saying good things or bad things, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

[B]

So you're taking the Zendaya approach. That's the.

[C]

Listen, if I can liken myself to Zendaya, then everything I've written in my journal for the last six months will have come true. No, I don't know. It's just, like, you have to do what comes naturally to you, you know, like, the way people. To me, that's been my biggest lesson. Watching people be successful in this space is like, the thing you have to be the most is yourself. And anything less is actually a huge problem. Like, it just doesn't work or resonate. So, no, I don't expect Adam Friedlander to be Megyn Kelly. Do you know what I mean? And I don't expect Tucker Carlson to be like, Matt. Like, that's not why I'm going on the Internet. I'm going on the Internet to, like, dip my toe in these different worlds and visit the people that live there, which is different from broadcast broadcast radio or broadcast television, which is. Everyone is gonna hear this. So try and make something that's not gonna offend them all.

[A]

It's true. My style is not very similar to Tucker Carlson. I also hate Zins. You know, he's all about apparently, like, zinning and stuff now. It's like a big.

[D]

You mean the, like, tobacco pouch they make me.

[A]

I tried it recently. I TR it again recently, and it made me.

[D]

That's a big difference between you and Tucker Carlson.

[A]

I actually think. I'm just saying that's a big. Like, that's like a part of his personality is he's selling these types of things. It's like he's hawking them on I. And I. I just don't care about

[D]

your politics if your personality is in. I don't think we're Vibe.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Well, Ben, how do you think about this? Because one of the things I found fascinating was virality. Like, virality as a kind of de facto good in a journalism space, which at the time, you know, I had real critique about. And I'm wondering now that we're, like, in this world where people go viral for all kinds of reasons, like, how does that make you think about, like, how journalism plays in this space or even, you know, to goofballs like us who aren't there to sort of rage play.

[B]

Yeah, I mean. Well, first. First of all, I just feel like I need to defend Zins, you know, because many of our colleagues who have stronger stomachs than Max, like sort of run. Yes, by the way.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Word from our actually not a sponsor of this podcast. He's a pod. He's a sponsor of other Tucker launched

[B]

a Zin competitor, I believe, which we could. Maybe that's a potential path for us. But no, that's such a good question because I think, like, to me, like, one of it's funny, the word engagement, like is a. Is a funny word for this because when we were at BuzzFeed, I mean, one of the real things that we discovered, and I think it wasn't where we were headed, but it was where the Internet took us, which is that the most engaging thing is the most divisive thing and that that's how the social platforms at least were built in that moment. I think it's actually less true on TikTok and Insta these days. But in like Facebook in the sort of mid aughts, the mid 2010s, the thing that was most. The thing that traveled was the divisive thing. So that could be is this dress, you know, white and gold or black and blue. Like, that's divisive. And people argue about it. And the argument fuels is how it is, what propels it. Or it could be Donald Trump said something crazy and people fight about that and that propels it. But I think, like, the notion of engagement really just became division, at least for a while. And I think the sort of architecture of those social platforms really created that. And I think it's a more kind of like diverse landscape now. There's sort of more different ways to find an audience and more different audiences. And few of them are as big as the, like, total. You could just see the sort of totally like some of these stories were just spread everywhere instantly. And I think things are more fragmented now, probably for the better.

[A]

Instagram in particular is not necessarily built for news. And we, you know, I think Adam Mosseri was on the show and he wasn't. He didn't talk about news at all. I think it's much more built for commercialism and selling you stuff.

[C]

And I did withhold an eye roll there, which was me kind of putting my NPR face back on because Adam Mosseri gave us the feed. I'm glad he's got religion about pictures and sandwiches and shopping and connection, but that dude gave us the feed. And I think that you're right, Ben, in that I do think the for you page, and I do think that makes a more focused and slightly insular experience. But it means that the hurdle that something leaps to travel, which does have something in common with the divisiveness. It's like a higher bar, but once it goes, it goes off like a rocket, because now it's escaped each of our algorithms.

[D]

If you're looking for a through line between what we did at NPR and what we're doing now at engagement party, I think one big one is curiosity that you can come to our show and hear all about the thing you're obsessed with that we're going to be talking about, hopefully in an interesting new contextual way. But I also want it to be a place you can come and hear about something that is totally off your radar, that you're unfamiliar with and walk away with some new insight and understanding of what's going on outside of your

[C]

own social media bubble, without the pronouncement factor, which is why I'm curious about how it'll be received. Like, I think one of the hallmarks of kind of like the way hot take culture migrated to podcasts and video podcasts and all that stuff is there's. And even the manosphere, arguably, it's a lot of someone be like, it's this way and it's definitely this way. You know what I mean? And I guess there's someone out there that's always been like, you know, I'm so glad someone told me how this all works.

[A]

I'm curious, do you think that newscast, like the ones that you did, this variety, you know, presenting a variety, a menu of information, are those basically going to go away, do you think, in the next few. In the next decade or so, as more people continue to just kind of experience the feed and are satisfied with that as a way of getting information?

[C]

Well, they were called magazines, right? Called news magazine shows. Okay. And what have happened to magazines? You know what I mean? Like, your. Your magazine has also really taken a hit because there are alternatives to a curated set of images and advertisers targeted to the thing you're interested in. So I think you're raising a very good question that I don't know the answer to, because every time I say something is gonna go away, like, here we are. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't think I'd be making any more radio, and here we are, and I certainly didn't think I'd be making it with Ben, and here we are. So I don't want us pronounce anything dead, but certainly we are seeing all variety programming of all kinds. Late night magazines, broadcast magazines, and it's unclear what the value is to the consumer and it's affecting the business of it.

[D]

And I'd even ask right now, how many other examples can you point to? I mean, you're asking in the next few years, is this gonna go away? I would say, where do you see it today?

[B]

It's the evening news, it's the morning show. I mean, I guess I'm curious. I mean, more sort of existentially like, do you think, I mean, is NPR gonna survive?

[D]

I certainly hope so. And I am encouraged by the fact that individual donations have gone way up since federal funding was cut. I don't have any insight. I know that there were some recent buyouts offered. I've certainly been through times in my nearly 25 years at NPR when there were deeper cuts than that. And I think that if NPR can get through the next couple of years to this transition of a post federal funding existence, then its future is incredibly bright because it doesn't answer to anyone other than journalists.

[B]

So we talked a little about. I'm curious what it was like. Adi and I like having this shadow of political funding, you know, funding that was coming from Capitol Hill kind of hanging over the broadcast. Like, how present was that for you guys?

[C]

Oh, the problem is, well, two things. One that was present since its inception because when the Corporation for Public Broadcasting was put into law, there were Congress people there who were like, what is this? What are we doing? The thing about it being, as I said, campus adjacent was a problem then. And the news of NPR came into its own with the Vietnam War and its coverage. There was and also coverage of hearings. So there is no time that there were not lawmakers who wanted to get rid of corporation and public broadcasting and npr. The difference is now, just like usaid, just like the Department of Education, just like a bunch of other things, someone was able to do it. Someone was to execute it. So I don't want the listener, I don't want you all to think that every day we were doing the news being like, oh boy, what does the congressman from so and so think? That was not relevant. It was just sort of always there.

[B]

But did you.

[C]

The second thing I'd like to put out there. Hold on, hold on. Cuz I see where you're going with this. I AM Looking at BuzzFeed, Vice, Mike, Food52, CNET, all of this, you know, journalism that was valued at Buku amounts of money in the end, in just these last few years, has, has been sold for a fraction of that. And I think I am somewhat more bullish on legacy media than other people. Because I look at the landscape of AI, and the only thing I think about is verification. I think that there will be an emphasis on human verified things. I think that people will find that certain legacy names are something they sort of cling to in the AI information storm. And so I went from being a person that, you know, like you. It's like, oh, my God, it's all falling apart, to being like, well, what's the alternative? You know, are we going to newsletter our way out of this? It seems like there are some aspects of legacy brands that are going to be deeply relevant and valuable to people. I just don't know what that value is since they also want it for free.

[B]

But I guess I'm curious, like, as a broadcaster, as a host, because I think, like, a lot of journalists now are, you know, working for places that got bought by people who have. And I mean, it's kind of a neutral way, reactionary politics who are reacting against the last era. And whether it's Jeff Bezos or the Ellison family who are trying to pull their publications to the right. Like, how do you think about being in an environment where kind of. Because I think NPR's always been true for NPR in a way that's different, where the ownership is looking over your shoulder, the sources of funding are deeply entwined with the content. Like, was that. Is that in your head when you're broadcasting npr?

[C]

No, no. Lawmakers came to meddle. You know what I mean? Certainly meddle. But, yeah, in a way, it feels like, do you. How do you feel in the media you're in. Do you know what I mean? Like, in a world where you have to go to VCs for money, where we're making these jokes about Zinn, where, like, to me, the same issues are at play, and maybe y' all are just actually less equipped to live that sort of cloud.

[B]

When I asked Charles Ferrell, who, you know, the number two at CBS News, about this, he said, well, everybody's owned by someone, which I don't know, but I think that's a slightly grim way

[C]

to see things, because who else is gonna pay you? I'd like to be owned by the viewer, you know, which is why I was happy to hawk tote bags and be on air for five or six hours at a time and fundraise at member stations. I worked at a member station.

[B]

Yeah, real independence is like a healthy operation in some way. I think.

[C]

Yeah, real independence. It's difficult to come by. It's a luxury because Someone pays the check. But I have yet to work at some place where anybody has meddled. I don't have that feeling yet. And as soon as I am and will, I'll share that. I'm very transparent.

[A]

So we're almost out of time here and we're. I know it's very. I know it's sad. I mean, we could keep doing this for a long time. This is a podcast. We don't actually make it a two parter.

[B]

Yeah, we gotta throw to the next show that's coming on.

[A]

This has been great and you guys have been really generous with your time, but the last question that we had here is, you know, this is a fishing expedition. But I have to ask. Ari, you did or you wrote? I believe I've got it in my show notes here that you produced a musical with Alan Cumming. And I'm very curious now that you are, you know, you have a little bit. It seems like, you know, you're not at npr. You don't have exactly a day job anymore. This is a weekly show, I believe. Are you gonna go on the Traitors? Is that. Has that been discussed? Has that been brought up? Would you like to.

[D]

Minor correction? You're very close to accurate. Alan Cumming and I created a cabaret show together, which was the two of us telling stories and singing songs. Not songs that we had written, but we were all over the. It was called Auch and a Considered Cabaret. And we went all over the country, into the Caribbean and Canada and all over the place. For six years we toured this show. And then before, just after he became host of the Traitors, I was tapped to host the Mole for a season on Netflix.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Having had the experience of hosting a reality show, I can firmly say I don't think I would ever want to be a contestant on a reality show, because as a host.

[C]

Don't say that. Because we need to be on Amazing Race.

[D]

Oh, my God. Wait a minute. Can the two of us do Amazing Race, please? Can we put that into the universe? As a contestant, you live in fear of having a bad edit. Like if somebody puts the dumpty dumpty dumpty music over footage of you walking on a beach, you're toast.

[A]

Yes, the villain edit.

[C]

Right?

[D]

As a host of a reality show, you can be completely incompetent. You can be a chaotic, sweaty mess, as I was when we were filming in Malaysia. And they still make you look glowing and perfect in the final cut. So I was totally spoiled. No, thank you. To being a contestant.

[A]

Well, Ari Adi, thank you guys. So much for joining us. This is really fun.

[C]

Yeah. Love being on here.

[D]

Oh, I love the conversation.

[B]

Thank you. It's great to see you guys. Everyone agrees that marketing is transforming, but there's a massive gap between agreeing on the future and actually building it. Think with Google bridges that gap. It's the resource for leaders who are done with the what and are ready for the how. Whether you're integrating AI into your workflows or rethinking measurement from the ground up, Think with Google provides the insights that turn strategy into growth. So don't just Talk about the AI opportunity. Operationalize it. Visit thinkwithgoogle.com.

[A]

So, Ben, one of the things that surprised me about this episode and has surprised me about both Adi and Ari in general, is the interest in kind of experimentation and doing different things and evolving their media careers beyond just, you know, the host of NPR Morning Edition of All Things Considered. One of the things that I feel like the previous generation before Ari and Adi, of hosts of these shows would do is kind of get those jobs. And that was the pinnacle of their career. Right. They mentioned some previous hosts of those shows who basically did them until they retired. And both Ari and Audie seem interested in making a next new chapter beyond being the host of those shows. And that's not really a capstone job anymore. Were you as surprised by that as I was?

[B]

Yeah. I was surprised when Audie left NPR and because. Right. In a way, they both. I know her better. Really. Kind of like when I first met her, embodied this kind of really, like, serious person, even handed NPR host. And I was sort of shocked when we got her to come and host this slightly kind of like, wacky show at buzzfeed. But I think, you know, it's interesting, like, for early, a lot of people who worked in legacy media for a long time, even though many journalists are very curious about the world, they're like, traditionally very incurious about media. And I do think that there's something new kind of in the air, that if you are, even if you have this incredible kind of prestige job where people are obsessed with, like, how to pronounce your, you know, it's just no longer tenable to believe that the media landscape's gonna be similar 20 years as it is now, and that you're gonna be kind of. And so people in what used to be thought of as kind of the pinnacle of the profession are just looking at their careers totally differently. And I do think, like, both of them have been almost like, it's like, you see this person in the glass broadcast booth. And it's then kind of shocking to learn that they're that like when the mic goes off, they're really looking outward and thinking really hard about the media landscape. What do you think of the thesis of their show of a sort of. Which is a, like a more, I guess a more personality driven variety show that's like, that is staying away from the real kind of hardcore divisiveness of a lot of what works online.

[A]

Well, first of all, I've been proven wrong by the success of traditional broadcasters moving from legacy and linear modes into digital. I was surprised by Don Lemon's ability to make that transition. In some ways, Don Lemon is more relevant now than he was at the end of his CNN career when he was a morning show host. I've been surprised by the resilience of Piers Morgan. I mean, they're basically, essentially doing versions of their old television shows on the Internet, but they're still very much a part of the zeitgeist. And in some ways they're bigger than they were when they were at sea in their last jobs at cnn.

[B]

Such a good point.

[A]

I'm not gonna underestimate skilled broadcasters ability to transfer mediums. Said it's a pretty crowded landscape out there for podcasts, particularly culture podcasts. I think that the advantage that Ari and Adi have is people know them, they're celebrities, they have super fans and some haters from their time as hosts at npr. But I think it is an uphill battle. And you know, the feed in some ways and the Internet landscape is democratizing. It has to be good, it has to be interesting. People aren't gonna listen or watch just because, you know, it's in front the way that you might if you were tuning into NPR because you were stuck in traffic and, you know, you'd flipped through all of the limited channels. The stuff has to be good. So I think it's, I think it's challenging. But they have an advantage over someone starting from scratch for sure.

[B]

I do think you're right. The advantage is it's as much skill as it is celebrity. And if you do look, if you look down the list of the most successful podcasters right now, you're pretty much looking at like the, you know, the primetime lineups of, of Fox News and CNN in 2009 or 2012. It's people who have a lot of television experience, a lot of broadcast experience, and it is to some degree just. The economics have shifted where. Well, where people who would have succeeded online before because they're really skilled professionals are now making a living there.

[A]

Well, that's it for us this week. Thank you for listening to the Mixed Signals podcast from us here at Semaphore. Our show is produced by Manny Fadal and Josh Billenson, with special thanks to Anna Pizzino, Jules Zern, Rachel Oppenheim, Tori Kaur, Garrett Wiley, and Daniel Haft. Our engineer is Rick Kwan and our theme music is by Steve Bone.

[B]

Our public editor is James Murdoch. And if you are enjoying the show, please follow us wherever you get your podcasts and like and subscribe on YouTube.

[A]

And if you want more, you can always sign up for Semaphore's media newsletter, which is out every Sunday night.

[C]

It.