Athena Strand Killer Sentenced, Clavicular Battery Charges, and Dark Chatbot Evidence in USF Murders, with Producer Natasha

Summary

MK True Crime Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Athena Strand Killer Sentenced, Clavicular Battery Charges, and Dark Chatbot Evidence in USF Murders, with Producer Natasha
Date: May 7, 2026
Host(s): Ashley Merchant & Dave Aronberg
Special Guest: Natasha Malone (Senior Producer, MK True Crime)

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Episode Overview

This episode covers three major true crime stories:

• The legal troubles of controversial influencer Braden "Clavicular" Peters
• The murder of two University of South Florida doctoral students involving chilling AI chatbot evidence
• The emotional conclusion of the Athena Strand trial, with exclusive insights from producer Natasha, who attended the sentencing

The hosts provide in-depth legal analysis, break down developments in each case, and discuss broader themes in criminal justice and social media culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Clavicular (Braden Peters) Case

Timestamp: [01:30] – [17:08]

Background:

• Braden Peters, aka "Clavicular" or "Clav," is a social media influencer known for extreme body modification and association with the “looksmacking” subculture, an outgrowth of the incel movement.
• "Looksmacking": Men attempt to drastically modify appearance via dangerous means—self-injury, steroid use, unregulated cosmetic procedures—to become irresistibly attractive.

Hosts Unpack the Subculture:

• Dave Aronberg: "It started from the incel movement... Now that morphed into a subgroup called this look smacking movement, which is: ‘Alright, I'm gonna make myself so good looking the women are not gonna be able to resist.’" [03:20]
• Both hosts and their families are mystified by the subculture; Ashley's teen daughter calls looksmacking "the male version of body shaming.” [05:40]

Peters’ Legal Troubles:

• First arrest (February; Arizona): Fake ID, Adderall possession (claimed prescription), anabolic steroid. Charges dropped.
  • Dave: “Had a good lawyer, like you.” [08:49]
• March arrest (Florida): Misdemeanor battery and conspiracy; Peters and his girlfriend allegedly battered a 19-year-old woman, possibly for social media engagement. [09:21]
• Alleged wildlife offense: Firing a handgun at a dead alligator (video evidence); ultimately not charged with felony as alligator was already deceased. [10:44]

Civil Suit:

• Florida influencer Alora sues Peters for fraud, battery, emotional distress, and unauthorized publication of her likeness.
• Allegations include:
  • Sexual assault after being served vodka at Peters’ parents' home,
  • Subsequent attendance at his parties and participation in dangerous injectable procedures (non-FDA approved "Aqualyx" fat dissolver) on livestream.
• Ashley (sarcastic): "So she couldn't give trading advice ’cause her cheeks didn't look good." [16:53]

Memorable Quotes:

• Ashley: "Someone who has literally beat their face in with a hammer. No." [05:42]
• Dave: "You want to see people learn life lessons, but… she was offered $15,000 a month by a trading company to be their spokesperson. Excuse me. Wait, a trading company? You mean what, stock trading? I'm gonna listen to 16 year old influencers that’s putting injections in her cheeks right there." [16:02–16:27]

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2. University of South Florida Student Murders & Dark Chatbot Evidence

Timestamp: [18:57] – [27:42]

Background:

• Two USF doctoral students engaged to be married are found murdered; investigation points to roommate with history of violence.
• Timeline constructed through Amazon purchases (duct tape, trash bags, lighter fuel), phone pings, and a series of striking ChatGPT searches by the alleged killer.

AI Evidence & Investigative Timeline:

• Purchases made (Apr 7 & 11): Supplies associated with body disposal.
• ChatGPT conversations included:
  • “What happens if a human is put in a black garbage bag and thrown in a dumpster?” [21:32]
  • "How would they find out?" [21:49]
• Cell data, Doordash records, and surveillance footage place suspect at dumping sites, ordering cleaning supplies post-crime.
• Physical evidence: Limone's student ID, credit cards, and more, found in the dumpster; traces of blood discovered in suspect’s apartment. [25:44–25:48]
• Previous restraining order by suspect’s brother due to violent outbursts.

Legal Commentary:

• The hosts highlight the mountain of evidence, suspect's shifting stories, and lack of motive.
• Discussion of Florida’s renewed zeal for the death penalty, constitutional concerns over recent changes to jury unanimity requirements following high-profile mass shooting case. [26:50–27:20]

Memorable Quotes:

• Dave: “He's not only a bad criminal, he's an idiot.” [22:34]

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3. Athena Strand Killer Sentenced – Special Report from the Courtroom

Timestamp: [30:24] – [59:13]

Sentencing & Immediate Reaction

• Natasha Malone, the show’s senior producer, attended the sentencing of Tanner Horner, convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of seven-year-old Athena Strand in Wise County, Texas.
• Courtroom Audio: Stark, emotionless reading of the verdict, including the jury's unanimous finding that Horner poses a "continuing threat to society.” [31:10–32:20]

Community Impact & Personal Reflections

• Natasha: Describes living near the crime scene, haunted for four years by the loss affecting her hometown.
  • “I literally drive by the spot where Tanner Horner killed and dumped Athena Strand, this beautiful seven year old child. I have to drive by that spot every single day for four years.” [35:56]
• Expresses a sense of closure and the surreal experience of confronting evil “face to face.”

Prosecutorial Presentation

• Wise County DA James Stanton is praised for his understated but powerful advocacy:
  • Natasha: "He literally pulled out Tanner’s sneakers and kind of forcefully put them on the desk and said, this, this is what killed Athena." [38:17]
  • Dave: “That’s a great lawyer right there.” [39:59]

Defense Tactics & Death Penalty Discussions

• Defense attempted to exclude death penalty citing pretrial publicity (including threats to themselves).
• Discussion of Texas’ unique requirement that juries must find "future dangerousness" for a death sentence.
  • Ashley: "If I had been defending him, I would have been arguing more about death... that the law says for you to impose the most ultimate penalty of death, you have to find beyond a reasonable doubt... he can't be controlled.” [41:52]
• Conversation about whether the death penalty serves as a deterrent; host and guest share nuanced or skeptical perspectives.

Jury Instructions & Mitigation

• Tension and confusion around Texas’ two “special issue” questions:
  1. Is the defendant a continuing threat?
  2. Are there sufficient mitigating factors to warrant life without parole?
• Natasha describes confusion during deliberations, believing the jury could still opt for life without parole regardless of the answers. [50:07–54:11]

Victim Impact Statement

Powerful closing moment: Athena’s uncle addresses Horner directly.

"You do not just take a life. You destroy the family, and you will be judged. You will face the wrath of God. But I want you to know that you are nothing. You are a footnote in Athena’s story. Her name will forever be remembered… everyone will forget you." [56:45–58:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dave Aronberg, on influencer culture:
  "This is a symptom of a content at any cost culture where people think that someone's dignity is just raw material for their TikTok feed. In a world where everyone wants to be the main character, Olivia Henderson just found out that sometimes the plot twist involves a pair of handcuffs." [65:28]
• Ashley Merchant, on parenting & loss:
  "Sometimes the hardest part of parenting is actually succeeding at it... If you do it well, they leave." [67:57]
• Natasha Malone, on courtroom experience:
  "It was really like looking evil in the face... he looks like everyone else. Your average, you know, contractor, FedEx driver who probably delivered packages to my house." [36:03–36:47]
• On legal strategy:
  "Even if you like your client or don’t, you’re emotionally exhausted... your brain is fried... you have to remember to still do your job." [44:59]
• Jury deliberation confusion:
  “When I listened, I thought, that’s going to... I was curious what you thought, because I thought, this is confusing. It almost sounds like if you vote yes for the first issue and no for no mitigation, you have to find death. Death is the only option, and it’s not.” [52:08]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Clavicular/Braden Peters Subculture & Legal Troubles: [01:30] – [17:08]
• USF Doctoral Murders & ChatGPT Evidence: [18:57] – [27:42]
• Florida/Death Penalty Law Discussion: [26:50] – [27:42]
• Athena Strand – Courtroom Sentencing and Reflections: [30:24] – [59:13]
  • Jury verdict and courtroom audio: [31:10–32:20]
  • DA Stanton presents the evidence: [38:17]
  • Athena’s uncle’s statement: [56:45–58:18]
• Listener Q&A on the Death Penalty: [61:16] – [65:19]
• Closing Arguments & Final Thoughts: [65:19] – [71:18]

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Tone, Style, and Language

• Hosts blend legal expertise with frank, accessible conversation and occasional dark humor.
• Empathy and community concern are evident, especially in the segments involving Natasha’s firsthand account.
• Legal explanations are detailed but approachable; personal experiences (parenting, emotional exhaustion, community grief) enrich the discussion.

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Summary Takeaways

• The episode offers a unique and thorough analysis of trending true crime cases with a fresh blend of legal acumen, pop culture commentary, and community empathy.
• It exposes the dangers of influencer extremism, the emergence of AI evidence in murder cases, and the raw emotional and legal complexities of death penalty trials.
• Standout moments include Natasha’s heartfelt courtroom reportage, the breakdown of legal strategies in capital cases, and a moving reminder from Athena's family that even in darkness, victims must not be forgotten.

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For listeners seeking not just headlines but real understanding, this episode delivers a nuanced, insightful—and sometimes deeply personal—exploration of today’s most charged true crime stories.

Transcript

[Dave Aronberg]

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Filled with delicious PB and J. Are you talking about yourself? And you can take them anywhere. Why'd you invite. And we are out of time. Are you really cutting me off?

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[Ashley Merchant]

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[Ashley Merchant]

full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile. Do. Welcome to the MK True Crime Show. I'm Ashley Merchant. I'm a criminal defense attorney from Atlanta, Georgia, originally from Florida. And I'm joined by my Florida co host, Dave Aronberg. He's a former state attorney for Palm beach county and he's also the managing partner at Dave Aronberg Law. Hello, Dave, the Florida law man. Hope you're well.

[Dave Aronberg]

Hello, Ashley. Former Florida law woman, now resident of the great state of Georgia. We've got some really cool topics today.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, we do. So let's talk about it. Let's see what we've got on the docket today. So first we're going to talk about social media influencer Braden Peters. He is known online as Clavicular. That's kind of a fun word to say. Three times in a row he is in legal trouble. And quite a bit of it, from battery to fraud to a possible wildlife offense. We'll give you all the details.

[Dave Aronberg]

Two University of South Florida doctoral students were tragically murdered in April. There's always a Florida connection to everything.

[Ashley Merchant]

Always.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. We'll discuss the suspect. And this is such a troubling case. There is crazy evidence that investigators say they have on him.

[Ashley Merchant]

And later, we're going to discuss the emotional end to the Athena Strand trial. We've been covering that here and we were lucky enough to have our senior producer who was actually in the courtroom when the Texas jury actually voted and handed down that Death sentence for killer Tanner Horner. But first, let's get started with Look Maxer Braden Peters, AKA clavicular. So, Dave, I know we were talking about this before, before we. We started. I know you're up on all the teen influencers. Who is clavicular for those that don't know.

[Dave Aronberg]

There he is. They call him Clav. Clav.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, clap. Even better.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right? It's part of this thing called look Smacking. It's like we're guys. It started from incel movement. So you know what incels are, Ashley?

[Ashley Merchant]

Not really. Okay, so I'm aging myself.

[Dave Aronberg]

Hey, I'm older than you. So. So incels are in the involuntary celibate. That's people who can't get a date, can't find a woman to have sex with. And that's what they call, like on purpose.

[Ashley Merchant]

This is like a chosen thing. No, no, you're just there by accident.

[Dave Aronberg]

No, in. In the incel stands for involuntary. So it's not voluntary. They just don't want to like, take a shower and brush their teeth, apparently, or they just have no game.

[Ashley Merchant]

And.

[Dave Aronberg]

And so of course in today's culture, they blame it on the women. So they have this whole group where they just, you know, I say it, shit talk about women and they just. And they, they feed the anger amongst themselves. And it's like a group that loves people like Andrew Tate and these horrible chauvinists out there who just want to blame women for everything. And so you have these dudes who are like, incels and really they need to get out of their parents basement and like, find a job.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's what it sounds like.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. Maybe, you know, flaw every now and then it would help their chances with women. Shower. Yeah. Right. And what happens is that they're part of these groups all on the Internet and. And now that morphed into a subgroup called this look smacking movement, which is. All right, you know, I'm gonna make myself so good looking the women are not gonna be able to resist. This is. By the way, that's them talking. Don't use that clip against me. Like I'm saying it firsthand. So they do things like, you know, inject themselves with weird things. Nothing that's approved by the fda. Clavicular is known to take hammers and smash his skull so that his bones and his nose and everything is just reshaped into this $6 million man. And this is where he is. He's. He's a ripe old age of like 20 years old, which is. He's destroying himself. And in more extreme cases, what they do is they take steroids as well and all.

[Ashley Merchant]

There he is.

[Dave Aronberg]

There it is. There is. Right? This is like a recipe for an early death, you know. Yeah, look at that, look at that. But that is not a natural body. Looks like a guy with like a plastic like body armor. And I, and I guess there are, I think there are more men who actually take to him than women because he has told people before on shows that he can't be intimate with women. And if he ever did, it would, it would be like in an instant. And he just. So I think he's there leaning into the celibate part of him. So he though in today's culture he's become a big celebrity not just in that world, but in the online world. And he's also been associated with a bunch of alleged crimes.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like maybe he was not getting any. And so he decided he wanted to do this look smacking to make himself more attractive. And then the result actually didn't work out so well. Well, I didn't really know.

[Dave Aronberg]

Did you find that attractive? I guess.

[Ashley Merchant]

No. I mean someone who has literally beat their face in with a hammer. No. And I actually, it was funny, you know, this is not my demographic, you know, the 20 year old teen influencer. So I actually asked, I happened to have, you know, a pool at my house to ask. So I asked, my 18 year old said, have you heard of this guy? And at first she's like, no. And then she's like, you should ask your 16. My 16 year old sister. She definitely would know. And then she goes, oh, he's the look smacking guy. And I actually wrote down what she said. It was hilarious. She said, I said, well, what's look smacking? And she said it's like modeling. But you know, it's like when women in the 2000s, they were trying to be like super, super, super skinny and they were basically all skin and bones and, and just really sick. It's basically the male version of body shaming. And I said, oh, well, that's interesting. And then I said, well, you know, how does he get with girls? And she laughed and said, does he? So I guess the, you know, the picture has gotten out. But yeah, he's gotten in some legal trouble recently. It sounds like.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. So there's so many issues, but that sells. He's got like a half a million Instagram followers. He's been profiled by the New York Times and gq. And yes, I read The New York Times profile. Which is why I know all about Clav. He. He's out there on the. In Miami a lot. South Florida. There's always a Florida connection.

[Ashley Merchant]

Always a Florida connection. Well, isn't that where he. He recently collapsed in Miami.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. So he was taking selfies with his fans at a mall in Miami, and he collapsed and began just. Then he got up, he started to slur his words. He then became unresponsive, and he was hospitalized, and they thought that was perhaps an overdose. So Peters, AKA Clav, told his followers that he does use substances to feel neurotypical. What does that mean?

[Ashley Merchant]

I don't know. I only know neurodivergent. So I don't know if that means, like, heightened, neurotypical, like normal. Because he has alleged that he is autistic. So he's taking the substances to feel not autistic, I'm guessing.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. Well, he said the worst part of his incident was how this life support mask that he's breathing oxygen from made his face look so. I don't know. These guys are the wrong parties. Yeah. It's okay. You don't have to hear any more of this craziness, because it'll just pollute your mind and your ears, because this is the worst of society. This is like when people say the next generation is in trouble. Well, I always believe every generation says that about young people, but these people, I mean, we've never seen anything like this before. There's nothing that young kids did. What, to listen to rock and roll back in the day. Well, how about smashing your face with a hammer and injecting yourself with like. Like, tire inflator to improve your cheekbones? Right?

[Ashley Merchant]

I don't know. I don't believe this whole smashing your face thing. That just seems insane to me. I think he's lying. I think he's totally lying. And I think some of these other things might be part of the scheme. So he was recently arrested, though, I guess in February. So the first arrest was out in Arizona. So he's got a slew of arrests that he's piling up here. Had a fake ID and drug possession, but apparently the drug. So they found Adderall. And he says he had a prescription, but he didn't on him. And then an anabolic steroid, but they've dropped the charges because they said they didn't have a reasonable likelihood of conviction. So what does that tell you? It tells me, I think that the drugs probably didn't test well, but had

[Dave Aronberg]

a good lawyer, like you had A great lawyer, right? Yeah. Yeah. So also, it's always tough when you, when you have like Adderall, which is a prescription drug that's used by so many people, if that's the basis of your charge, you know, you can, you can say you had a prescription or then maybe a doctor will come by later and say, well, I gave him a prescription even if he didn't have. There's many ways you can. But they did confiscate his fake ID so they can bust them on underage drinking, I guess. But yeah, right. I mean that, that, that was, that was never going to be a winner. But in late March he was also arrested on misdemeanor battery and criminal conspiracy to commit misdemeanor battery in Fort Lauderdale. Again, always a Florida connection. So he. So you have this 19 year old woman who allegedly that Peters and his girlfriend, which I didn't know even had a girlfriend because he's involuntarily celibate. 24 year old Violet Lentz battered her at a Kissimmee home rented by Peters. Now what's interesting is that Kissimmee is nowhere near Fort Lauderdale. That's near Disney World. So I don't even get how the Kissimmee case made it down to Fort Lauderdale. It's like four hour drive away, I don't know. But Peters and Lentz refused to speak to officers. And then the officers reviewed video and interviewed witnesses and they concluded that Clav started the fight so he could post it on social media for engagement. So he was arrested for misdemeanor battery. And then there's the allegation that he shot a handgun at an alligator in the Everglades. But then they found out, I guess the alligator was dead before he shot at it. In fact, we have a sot on this about Clav shooting at an alligator. Let's see this.

[Injection Demonstrator]

Yeah, I think that gators just had to make sure.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yo, yo, yo, yo.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, I think it's dead.

[Injection Demonstrator]

Oh, I can't hear.

[Dave Aronberg]

What do you mean?

[Injection Demonstrator]

Yeah, it's definitely dead.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

Yeah. What the

[Ashley Merchant]

dog.

[Dave Aronberg]

It's terrible.

[Ashley Merchant]

That was a lot of wasted bullets. Well, one fun fact I found out about that is killing or harming an alligator without state authority is a felony in Florida. Did you ever get to prosecute one of those, Dave, when you were a prosecutor?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, we did Fish and Wildlife referrals, yes, but not specifically killing an alligator. But that, I mean, that video would be enough to get him. But if the alligator was already dead. And it looks like they determined the alligator was dead beforehand. I don't know how you do that. You do an autopsy of the alligator?

[Athena's Uncle]

I don't know.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, that alligator was dead.

[Dave Aronberg]

You can just tell because it was belly up floating.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, it wasn't playing dead. It looked pretty dead.

[Dave Aronberg]

Okay, all right, well, that makes it a little better. But I mean, just also to think that you can do that on camera and just get rewarded by more followers is pretty gross. You know, there needs to be consequences for this guy's out of control and there's not going to get it from that. So there's something else going on though, Ashley, isn't there?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes. Okay, so this is the really crazy one. So I want to read this one. The battery and fraud lawsuit that just happened. This one is absolutely crazy. And I want to point out a couple things that I just think when I read it, I'm like, wait, what? So there was a teen influencer from Florida. She is known as Alora. Apparently she just filed a lawsuit against Peters against the clav on April 28th. So very recently she's got a ton of followers and she is suing for fraud, battery and intentional affliction of emotional distress and unauthorized publication of name and likeness. So apparently she was working for him when she was an aspiring social media influencer and he was trying to recruit her to be the female look smacker. She collaborated with him and then she signed, who knew, signed a contract to promote online trading platforms for 15 grand a month. And apparently she's now saying that Peters has discredited her. But this is the really interesting thing. So this, this girl Laura said that at some point before the relationship soured, he paid her to take an Uber. Paid. Paid for an Uber for him, for her to go out to his parents home in Cape Cod. Okay, so then he says, she says that he served her vodka and she got so drunk she couldn't consent to sex. Too drunk to consent to sex, fell asleep, woke up the next morning having sex yet again with him. Without his consent, without her consent. Then she took an Uber home. Didn't see him for six months. Okay, so first I thought he couldn't get it up. Sorry. But didn't he say that he's got so much testosterone he can't perform? So he said.

[Dave Aronberg]

He has said that. He said it would take him one minute.

[Ashley Merchant]

So he is forcibly, you know, he's raping her without consent, then obviously without consent the night before. And then in the morning, I mean, he's going two times in 12 hours. Like definitely inconsistent there. But Then we've got another event in November where she's at this partying network event in Miami. He compliments her, says, you're looking hot, invites her to a party, and she went and livestreamed. So this guy that you're saying raped you twice within 12 hours, you're gonna go and go to a party with him six months later. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. And then lets him inject her with this. I've never heard of this. Aqualyx. I feel like I haven't heard of anything today. I feel like I'm living under a rock. Aqualyx. It's an injectable. I feel like I know all the good injectables, but it's an injectable. And it is apparently not FDA approved for dissolving fat. But on camera, injected her, and we actually have a spot for that. The injections.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, I got to see this, right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Because I have, like.

[Natasha Malone]

What I don't like is that I have, like, this.

[Injection Demonstrator]

All right, so let's do it. Moment. Relax, relax, relax. I need more swabs, like dexterity.

[Dave Aronberg]

Also, I can help mod your chat during nights.

[Injection Demonstrator]

Yo, this is. This is a fat dissolver called Aqualux, and you can easily buy it online. Yeah,

[Dave Aronberg]

$3.

[Injection Demonstrator]

It is very intimate, at least.

[Dave Aronberg]

Are you doing it with me now? You know, Yep.

[Injection Demonstrator]

I. I might have to, so. All right, Chad, what do you think about that? Kayla needs to do this. You're crazy. All right.

[Natasha Malone]

Oh, dissolve like this, too.

[Injection Demonstrator]

What, this leg? No, we didn't really get that area.

[Natasha Malone]

All right, that's fine. Next time.

[Injection Demonstrator]

Yeah, we'll do that for round two. We're just gonna keep it. Keep it chill for this one because that one has a tendency to bleed a lot. I've done this for a few people.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's like Dr. Pimple Popper, but with injectables. It's just bizarre. This whole thing is bizarre. But I don't know. I guess he's licensed.

[Dave Aronberg]

He's not licensed to do that. You need a license. You can't start injecting things and then. What is wrong with her for. Yeah, okay. Just, you know, she wants to look. What? More youthful. It's like, you want to see people learn life lessons, but, you know, she was offered $15,000 a month by a trading company to be their spokesperson. Excuse me. Wait, a trading company? You mean what? Stock trading options? I'm Gonna listen to 16 year old influencers.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's putting injections in her cheeks right there.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, that's the Spokesperson.

[Ashley Merchant]

Thank you. No thank you.

[Dave Aronberg]

I'm going to throw my money at the person who's like, yes, Clav, why don't you inject something that's not approved by anyone into my skin? Oh, and I know you're not a doctor because you're an incel. And so she's getting this done now. She did say that because of this procedure it did get botched, shocked. And then she lost her contract. Like she couldn't be the spokesperson for this trading company any longer because her

[Ashley Merchant]

cheeks didn't look good. So she couldn't give training advice. I totally get that. It makes perfect sense. I feel as though this family of influencers are going to be the gift that keep on giving with these lawsuits and these assault charges. So I'm sure we'll have more to talk about with them.

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[Ashley Merchant]

I am dying to talk about this case down in usf, which is actually my. Right by my hometown. I mean, I grew up in Clearwater, and they were driving in Clearwater. This is crazy. This is like my back door. So tell us you're down there in Florida. I know you're really involved in this case, talking about it. Tell us what's going on.

[Dave Aronberg]

This is a disturbing case, and I know we joke that everything seems to happen in Florida, but this is really tragic because you have these two young people who were engaged to be married, and they end up dead. And they all point to the roommate, the creepy roommate of one of them who has a bad temper. His own parents said, bad temper.

[Ashley Merchant]

And.

[Dave Aronberg]

And we don't know a motive, but we know that the body of the male ended up near a bridge over in Clearwater. And the second, the female, looks like her body was also found at the same location. Now, he said, I don't know anything about that location. I didn't. I didn't speak to them. I don't know what happened to them. And then it finds. Then he finds out that his phone apparently was pinging in that area. So they said, oh, yeah, I did give them a ride to that area. Like, okay, wow, major lie already. And that's just a start of the lies, Ashley.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. So these are two doctoral students, apparently, who were killed, and this guy is now facing murder charges. It sounds. I mean, it sounds like the details are really grisly. I mean, they're really awful. But both of These people were 27. They were from Bangladesh originally. They were last seen, it's been nearly two weeks ago in Tampa. As you said, one of the bodies was found a week later. Two days after that, the other body was found, really decomposed. And the roommate. So one of their roommates is the one that's actually been charged with the death. And the judge ruled that he just appeared in court on Tuesday, said that he's gonna be held in detention as he awaits trial, which isn't really surprising, you know, not at all that he wouldn't get a bond. But apparently the charges have a pretty interesting timeline and some of the purchases. I know we talked earlier this week about things that people purchase, but in this case, the timeline and what he did, I mean, this is one of the first cases I've ever seen with ChatGPT. We've had Google searches, but let's just talk a little bit about how this sort of unfolded. So on April 7 and April 11, there were some Amazon purchases that he made. Allegedly made several purchases on Amazon. Duct tape, trash bags, lighter fuel, and fire starter.

[Natasha Malone]

Interesting.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then the chatgpt. Did you get the chatgpt conversation?

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah, he said, like. Like about taking a body out to the dumpster.

[Ashley Merchant]

What happens if a human has. Puts in a. You put a human in a black garbage bag and thrown in a dumpster?

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. And that. That chat was three days before the two victims, Limone and Bristy, were last seen alive.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then asked how they would find out.

[Dave Aronberg]

Right, Right. That's right. And chat. The chatbot responded, well, that sounds dangerous. And yes. And that's when the defendant allegedly asked, how would they find out? So it's like he wanted to be caught. So later, when law enforcement caught up to him about his lies, about his searches, and they. They did an interview with him, of course, he said he didn't know anything, all that stuff. And there was a band aid around his pinky, like. Oh, so how'd you get that right? Oh, I was chopping onions. Okay, so what were you making? I don't remember. Okay. I mean, right away. Guilty as charged. This guy, he's not only a bad criminal, he's an idiot. And. Right.

[Natasha Malone]

Just.

[Dave Aronberg]

Just.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah. His phone, too. I mean, they were. They were checking his phone locations, too, right?

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes, yes, yes. They phone locations. I mean, and his parents are like. You know, his parents didn't do him any favors by saying he's got a bad temper. Yeah. He'd blow up at people, and then when they caught him, they had to with guns drawn. He was, like, half naked. He wouldn't come out. They actually were arresting him for another crime, domestic violence. And so he wasn't coming out of his home. I mean, the whole thing, it's like one after the next is. And, yeah, we're showing a picture on the screen of him coming out. That is not how you want to be arrested for a crime. Put on your pants, boy.

[Ashley Merchant]

Right? Oh, my God. Yeah. The next thing is going to be the mug shot. I mean, not good. Definitely not good.

[Dave Aronberg]

Not a good mug shot. The whole thing is terrible.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, we at least know that his phone location showed him in the vicinity and then showed him traveling all the way over to Clearwater, which is my hometown. And then this was interesting. He got a doordash order for trash bags later that night. It was like, doordash for Lysol wipes. Okay, so doordash, he. Doordashes, trash bags, Lysol wipes, and Febreze from a.

[Dave Aronberg]

Why would you need that? Right after Lysol wipes and Febreze, he must be a clean freak. Right?

[Ashley Merchant]

Right. And then his other roommate sees him using a cart to move cardboard boxes from his room to. To a compactor trash dumpster outside of their apartment complex.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. Well, when police searched that dumpster, they found Limone's student ID and credit cards. Why would you do that? Well, how did that end up there? Is that normally where you put your materials? Do you take your credit cards, Ashley, Normally your student ID and throw into the dumpster.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, not a good fact for him. And then. Then brilliant, brilliant criminal goes back to ChatGPT. Goes back to ChatGPT and asks again, our cars checked at the Hillsborough River State Park.

[Dave Aronberg]

Wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's in the arrest affidavit. Yeah. And so then he gets on the bridge. The bridge. You know. You know that bridge between Tampa and Bluewater.

[Dave Aronberg]

Courtney Campbell Bridge, Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

No, he actually got on the Howard Franklin.

[Dave Aronberg]

Howard Franklin.

[Ashley Merchant]

Impressive that, you know, Courtney Campbell and Howard Franklin. Courtney Campbell is a causeway that goes to my home. Yeah. So he goes on this bridge, which goes over Tampa Bay, for those that aren't familiar with it, goes over the bay. And apparently he goes twice between 1am and 4:30am apparently, from the search warrant affidavit, seeing they're looking at his phone and the traffic data, you know, they've got all those cameras and stuff, so they can pretty much figure that out. So he's going back and forth to Clearwater, and then we've got them both apparently officially reported missing. Then the police the next day search, and they actually find.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, I was gonna say, you know what? They've got so much evidence on them. At least they didn't find any blood at his residence, because that would. That would be the end of him. Right.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dave Aronberg]

What else they find? What do they find when they search his residence?

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, they found out that he struggled. Struggled with anger management, and then he was violent with his family and had a TPO against him. He's been arrested on battery multiple times. Charges have been dropped. So, I mean, he definitely has some history. His own brother filed for that TPO to try and keep him away. So, I mean, they definitely found some crazy stuff.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, well, I was. I was setting you up for saying they found traces of blood.

[Ashley Merchant]

Oh, in the apartment.

[Dave Aronberg]

In the apartment, yes.

[Ashley Merchant]

It's crazy.

[Dave Aronberg]

I mean, that's why, like, I don't know, not even the Ashley Merchant can get this guy out of this crime.

[Ashley Merchant]

So Bad. It's so bad.

[Dave Aronberg]

We just don't know the motive. But, you know, these two young people were in love, apparently. And he's a weird roommate who, like, has anger issues and who lies a lot, and there's a mountain of evidence against him. So.

[Ashley Merchant]

No, it's not good. It's really not good.

[Dave Aronberg]

He'll be eligible for the death penalty, by the way. There are enough aggravators here expect that

[Ashley Merchant]

the state attorney's office definitely. Didn't they also find. So they found some of the blood, but didn't they also find, like, a wallet? I think they found one of the people's wallets, a phone case, some glasses, and all of that had blood on it.

[Natasha Malone]

So.

[Ashley Merchant]

And then his car was recently apparently cleaned. So he's, you know, he's definitely left his mark there. And I did check that. Apparently Florida is starting to use the death penalty a whole lot more. Apparently your governor has decided that it is, you know, time to bring back the death penalty in the state of Florida. Well, so he's making it a lot easier.

[Natasha Malone]

Right?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, well, the legislature passed the law after the evil. I don't say his name. The evil murder of the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas massacre, when he was able to avert the death penalty by a 9 to 3 vote, which was 9 in favor of death and 3 opposed. That was enough. Because you needed unanimity in Florida at the time. Not anymore. Now.

[Ashley Merchant]

Which is crazy. I don't think that's going to withstand. That's. I don't think that'll be constitutional when it's challenged. But, you know, I don't think anybody cares. They want it.

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, you know, I think that is this case. I don't think he'll get eight. I think he'll get more than that because this, I don't know. This guy is not sympathetic. I mean, with the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas defendant, he was 19 years old. They dressed him up like a child with the oversized glasses and the Menendez brother sweatshirt sweater. So, yeah, but this guy, I don't think he can put makeup on a pig right now.

[Ashley Merchant]

This is. This is awful. So I would not be surprised, like you said, if they seek the death penalty. But next up, we have a special treat. We have our senior producer, Natasha Malone. She is joining us straight from being in the courtroom for the Tanner Horner sentencing trial verdict. We're going to talk about the final days of the trial and catch you up on all that. What Athena's family said to the convicted killer after he received a death sentence and what happens next now that he is officially on death row? Stay tuned.

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[Dave Aronberg]

Welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. Joining us now is the senior producer of the MK True Crime Channel, Natasha Malone. This is really special because normally Natasha's behind the scenes doing some great work, but now she's making her debut on the show. Because Natasha, you were there in the courtroom this week when a Texas jury sentenced 7 year old Athena Strand's killer Tanner Horner to death by lethal injection. First off, it's great to have you here, Natasha. Welcome to the show.

[Natasha Malone]

Thank you, Dave. Thank you, Ashley. This is very interesting being on this side of the show, so thank you for having me.

[Dave Aronberg]

You're a natural for it. And let's take a look at the verdict. Watch this.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

Answers to special issues. Special issue number one. Whether there is a probability that the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society. Answer. We, the jury, unanimously find beyond a reasonable doubt that the answer to special issue number one is yes. Signed by the presiding juror, Swift. Special issue number two. Whether, taking into consideration all the evidence, including the circumstances of the offense, the defendant's character and background, and the personal moral culpability of the defendant, there is a sufficient mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that a sentence of life imprisonment without parole rather than the death sentence be imposed. Answer. We, the jury, unanimously find that the answer to special issue number two is no. Signed by the presiding juror. Mr. Horner, if you'd stand, please. It's the order of the court that you, Tanner Lynn Horner, has been adjudged to be guilty of the offense of capital murder is found by the jury. Jury, having answered the special issues, making it mandatory that your punishment be death, it is therefore the order of this court that your punishment be death.

[Ashley Merchant]

Okay, I gotta start out with this. Why is his lawyer not standing next to him? I'm sorry, I know that's not a popular opinion, but that's your job. Get and stand next to him. That just shocked me when I saw it. I could not believe. I never see defense lawyers not standing next to their client, especially when they're taking a death sentence. So I just had to react to that. I'm sorry. But, you know, we all knew it was coming. I don't think any of us are sad about it. Not going to lose any sleep. But it's your job. Stand next to your client. So sorry.

[Dave Aronberg]

He wanted to be out of there, like, asap. He didn't want to be associated with, like, most hated man. He got death threats, too. Not only Horner, but the lawyer got death threats, you know, so, by the way, they tried to use that, right, Natalie? They tried to use that to their benefit. They said death penalty should be taken off the table because of pretrial publicity. And we all got death threats because of this. Doesn't work like that.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah, yeah. That was the first thing on Tuesday morning when we all were seated and ready to go. The defense Team stood up and said, you know, we have to get the death penalty out of the jurors hands because of the media. This has been an international, you know, case, everyone covering it. And you know, that's true. And, and the lawyers did get death threats. But I think in the end the judge was very quick. Judge George Gallagher of Tarrant county, he was very quick to say denied and move on to the closing arguments.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, he knew what they were doing. I mean, they're preserving a record, they're doing their job. So Natasha, I'm really curious for you. This was your first time in court, right?

[Natasha Malone]

Yes, this was my first time ever in court.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's so crazy because you, I mean, you watch trial. Yeah. Not even jury duty?

[Natasha Malone]

No, I've never had jury duty. I would love to have jury duty now that I know so much more about our legal system. But no, it was, it was fascinating. I'd never been to a courtroom. I never sat in on a trial, let alone a death penalty trial and let alone a child that was so close to my heart. I think listeners just to know the background of why, you know, we've been covering this case so heavily and why I've been kind of more involved covering this is because this happened in my hometown of Boyd, Texas. It's something that no one ever thinks is going to happen where they live. And it happened literally a mile from my house four years ago, November 2022. And it just shocked our community and it's haunted our community for four years. I literally drive by the spot where Tanner Horner killed and dumped Athena Strand, this beautiful seven year old child. I have to drive by that spot every single day for four years. And so it was really important for me to be in that courtroom for the closing arguments and for the verdict. And you know, I don't know Athena's family, I, I did not know her. But for this to happen in my hometown, and you know, it, it just your face to face was a monster. And I'm so glad that, you know, at least now that the sentencing trial is over, the family of Athena may have, you know, begin to have some closure in this. But that's why, you know, I felt the need to go on Tuesday and be there in person and see what, you know, my fellow peers, you know, deemed appropriate for this monster.

[Ashley Merchant]

Well, I mean, and you're, you're a part of this community and this has touched you. Did you feel a sense of closure being there?

[Natasha Malone]

I did. I think it's at least the beginning of closure. I'm not like staunch death penalty supporter, but I think if there ever was a reason to hand down a death sentence, this would probably be it. I mean, he did the worst thing a human being could ever do. And it's just unconscionable what he did. And to stand in that courtroom and actually see him face to face. And at one point I. I mistakenly made eye contact with him and it was terrifying. It was, it was really like looking evil in the face and like, how, how could you do this to this beautiful seven year old girl? You know, it was, it was like a jolting moment for me. It was, it was extremely shocking to be in the presence of someone who did this and who looks like everyone else. I mean, you know, we see his picture, we've played, you know, you know, thoughts from the trial where he's in it and he look literally looks like your average dude, you know. Yeah. Your average, you know, contractor, FedEx driver who probably delivered packages to my house. So yeah, it was, I really needed to be there on Tuesday and I, I'm glad I went.

[Dave Aronberg]

Good. Did you know any members of the jury or members of inside the courtroom, like the prosecutor, defense lawyers?

[Natasha Malone]

No, I don't know any of them personally, but I become a huge fan of the wise County District Attorney James Stanton. He. Oh my goodness, watching him work, he was amazing. He has done such a great job throughout this trial. There was one moment, I think we do have a thought of this that absolutely took my breath away. And he, he literally pulled out Tanner's sneakers and kind of forcefully put them on the desk and said this, this is what killed Athena. Partly.

[Ashley Merchant]

That was.

[Natasha Malone]

And it powerful.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, we have. That's a SOT7. We've got, we've got to show. Let's show sat seven and I don't

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

want anybody to ever forget what kind

[Athena's Uncle]

of warrior that little girl was.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

I don't know if anybody could have.

[Athena's Uncle]

Could have withstood what she withstood.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

He can choke her, he can beat her.

[Dave Aronberg]

He can do it over and over again.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

But what do we know? We know the end result was right here.

[Athena's Uncle]

This is what is it took.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

That's what it took to beat the

[Dave Aronberg]

life out of her.

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

If the facts were not bad enough, if the sexual assault wasn't bad enough,

[Ashley Merchant]

the level of violence that one person

[Courtroom Speaker/Juror]

can inflict on a child, including stomping them with a pair of shoes. And I wonder where that tread light

[Athena's Uncle]

print came from anymore because we know he was, he.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean he was really good. And I can tell you Having watched a lot of death penalty cases, read a lot of transcripts, a lot of times, the prosecutors are really over the top. And, I mean, he. You can tell that he just felt the facts were there. He didn't need to go over the top. He didn't need to be quoting Bible verses and standing on tables. Yeah. Like, it was just.

[Dave Aronberg]

Just.

[Ashley Merchant]

This is what it is. And it almost. It almost felt like he felt bad that he had to ask for the death penalty, but he didn't have any other choice. And, I mean, it was compelling. That was compelling.

[Dave Aronberg]

That's. That's a great lawyer right there. Yeah. Go ahead, Natasha.

[Ashley Merchant]

Sorry.

[Natasha Malone]

Oh, no. Yeah. No, definitely a hero of mine now. And I do have to say, like, the defense, they were just doing their job. You know, they had to do it, and thank God for that. You know, it. I accidentally did sit in the defense section when I got there, because there weren't a lot of seats, and I

[Ashley Merchant]

was probably where all the open chairs were.

[Natasha Malone]

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

[Dave Aronberg]

There's a reason why there are empty seats there.

[Natasha Malone]

And I. I did. I felt bad. I thought. I felt bad for them because, you know, they have been demonized, and they. You know, they have gotten death threats, and it's not their fault. This is. You know, it. They have to do, as you guys know, as criminal defense lawyers. This is the other part of it. You know, you have to hold the state accountable. And, you know, they were doing their job, and, you know, I think they kind of. I don't know, missed the boat with their closing a little bit, where they were really, like, trying to say, oh, Tanner is remorseful. Like, he's found God. You know, he. He may not say he's sorry, but he is. And I think. I think the jury honestly checked out at that point. I think they really did. And, you know, that they. They just couldn't. They couldn't go along with that. That line of thinking on Tanner.

[Dave Aronberg]

What would you have done? I mean, you're. You're an accomplished defense lawyer. I mean, you have a small community, you have a notorious crime, and you have overwhelming evidence, and you have sexual abuse, which is just gonna poison the minds. I mean, that's it. And it's like there's. You can't overcome that. I don't know. So what would you have done as a defense Lord? Just try to get a plea where you take the death penalty off the table?

[Ashley Merchant]

I would have focused more. I mean, it's. I'm sure they tried to do that. I'm sure that they Tried to get a plea because, I mean, he, you know, he pled guilty and only went to trial on the death penalty. So my guess is that they tried to do that, and this prosecutor just wouldn't. Wouldn't give on that. But if I had been defending him, I would have been arguing more about death. And a death sent being different and arguing. So Texas has a really unique death penalty statute. They're the only state that has this finding that has to be made of future dangerousness. So for the jury to impose death, they actually have to find that you're a future danger. And so I would have focused more on that, because you're not going to win on these facts. These facts are awful. And a future dangerousness finding, it's not something that's easy to make. And so I think you could argue, if you think about it, to find future dangerousness. You're basically saying that the state of Texas cannot protect other inmates from him if he goes to prison, that he's so violent that he's gonna be like Superman and get out of his chains and stuff and kill other inmates. Where I would have focused more on that. That the law says for you to impose the most ultimate penalty of death, you have to find beyond a reasonable doubt, unanimously, that he can't be controlled, that he is so dangerous that you have to put him down ess and that, you know, try to instill that humanity, that he doesn't need to be put down like an animal. You. You want to do that because of what he did. You want to do that because he's disgusting and you hate him, and that's normal, and that's natural, but he's still a human being. And, you know, you have to tap into. Do we have the right as human beings to decide when to, you know, when to extinguish life? And, you know, everybody on the jury has to be death qualified, so they have to be willing to vote for the death penalty, but that doesn't mean that they're going to. And so the more you can tap into that, you know, just the weight of what this is, because you're never gonna win on the facts. He's not sympathetic. He's not. He's not sympathetic. He's not. And I mean, they're trying to explain that that's part of his sickness and his psychosis, but it doesn't make you like him. It makes you easy to want to shoot him, you know, or stick a needle in him. It makes it really easy. And so I think focusing on that Might have been more chance, but I don't know that there was a whole lot they could do. I mean, it's just these. These facts are really, really awful. Really awful. So, Natasha, we've been doing a lot of talking. I want to know what your questions are. You said you had some questions for us. I'm dying to know what your questions are about the whole process.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah. Yeah. So my first question is, when you have this situation, when it's a decision between life without parole or the death penalty, do you prep your client with both outcomes? Like, this is what's going to happen. Life without parole. This is death. Like, does he get. Does he get a pep talk before the verdict happens? Like, I, I just, I. I wanted to know all of that because I. I really didn't see the defense team interacting with him, like, at all. I saw them writing back and forth a little bit, but. But that's it.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, I go over all the possibilities and particularly because you don't want your client, no matter what the sentence is, you don't want a spectacle in court that's not good for anybody. And so you want to maintain that sort of decorum. I always tell my clients going in, this is what the options are. This is, what's the next steps? Because I think it's really important to focus on next steps. He has an automatic right to appeal. He's going to be appointed a lawyer, you know, and it's hard because at the end of a trial, you're exhausted, you're emotionally exhausted. Even if you like your client, don't like your client, you're emotionally exhausted, and you have been on 24 7, your brain is fried. I mean, every. You're exhausted in every form of the word. And you're still trying to remember, I gotta still do my job. And I always try to make sure that I have those conversations ahead of time with my client, you know, night before, repeatedly at a break, if there's a lunch break, you know, while you're waiting. They waited three hours for the verdict, so that would have been a good time to talk about it. So they, you know, based on his reaction, I'm guessing that they did talk to him ahead of time. I also think, you know, he definitely has some. Some issues and his affect was off, but I think that they would have prepped him for that. And that's really important. But a lot of times when you go back after you probably saw, and there was a. There's a holding cell, we go back with our Clients after. And I can tell you a lot of times I've had clients, especially depending on their age, I've had some of them that were stoic, and we're just like, okay, you told me you prepped me. What's next?

[Dave Aronberg]

Next?

[Ashley Merchant]

Here's my. You know, here's my stuff. Tell my mother I love her. And then some of them just lose it. I mean, just absolutely. Like, there's. You're just back in there. And I mean, I've had people just sobbing on me right there. And you just have to. You just go back over all that stuff with them.

[Dave Aronberg]

Are you saying actually that the death penalty can be a deterrent? Because there are a lot of people out there who say it doesn't deter anyone. It sounds like people really don't want it.

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, I don't really believe in the death penalty. And, you know, I've gone back and forth throughout my life over if I believe in it, if I don't believe in it. I haven't believed in it in. You know, I haven't believed in it since I lost my father at age 22. And I can tell you that actually I was. I grew up in Florida, and I was. You know, we. We like the death penalty in Florida. I'm not gonna lie. We like it. And then when I lost my dad, it just really started to make me realize that how precious human life is and how we shouldn't be able to pick even a disgusting, horrible person. Like, I don't think that we should be able to pick when you die and, you know, plan how you d. Work all that out. And then I sort of took it on more as a cause legally. And it's probably one of the reasons I am a defense lawyer. So I don't really believe in it. I don't believe in the deterrence. I don't believe in any of that stuff because most of the people. And I've had several people with death penalty charges, and I don't know that it would have been a deterrent because most of them have something psychologically going on that's. That's wrong, and they're probably not capable of. Of that deterrence level. You know, to be deterred, you've got to be at a certain level, educational level, at a certain capacity to actually understand that. And I don't know that they're able to really understand that.

[Dave Aronberg]

You know, Florida does like the death penalty, and it's easier in Florida than anywhere else. This crime is so senseless, so evil, and those boots are Just, just, yeah, you know, I, I, I would be part of the jury saying guilty and death penalty because it's like, if you have it, if it's on the books, when are you going to use it if you're not going to use it for this kind of case? I don't know. Natasha.

[Natasha Malone]

Right. Yeah.

[Dave Aronberg]

What would you think about this? That, I mean, you're a compassionate person? I, I like to believe I am too, but, you know, I just think that it's, it's reserved for these kinds of animals.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah, I mean, I, I usually, you know, I go, like Ashley said, I, I go back and forth on it. But in this case, I think this is the reason why we have it. It's really hard to, you know, go through all the evidence that, you know, was presented in this trial and, and come out on the other side thinking, yeah, this guy, he deserves to have structure in jail and three meals a day. And, you know, yeah, those are not good arguments. No, no. So I, I do think that the jury got it right. But I do have another question for you guys. So the jury had to answer two special issue questions. And like, the first one was, does Tanner pose a continuing threat to society? So they had to answer that one first. And then they had to answer, are there any mitigating factors that in Tanner's case where life without parole would be more appropriate than the death penalty? And so they answered yes to special issue number one, saying he is a continuing threat to society. And then they answered no for special issue number two, saying that no, life without parole is not nest, it's not appropriate in this case. Is there any ever an instance where a jury would say, yes, he's a continuing threat to society and yes, life without parole is appropriate?

[Ashley Merchant]

Yes, definitely. And I'm glad you asked that because I was actually going to ask you something similar to that. So before I, before I walk through that a little more, I wanted to ask you this. When you heard the jury charges, did you believe that if, if the jury found yes to the first one and no to the second that they could find life without parole? Did you, did you believe that?

[Natasha Malone]

I did. And here's why. Because when we were waiting, when the jury was deliberating, we were waiting around, and you guys know how it is, just hanging out in the courtroom. And I, I honestly thought it was going to be very quick. I mean, we're in Texas. The evidence is just awful and brutal. So I, I was like, this is going to take five minutes and an hour into it. The judge Comes in, Judge George Gallagher. He comes in and he says, the jury has questions. They want to go over videos. They want to see transcripts, like they were asking for a lot. And so that. That's an hour into deliberation. And so to me, that signaled, oh, man, someone is on the fence. Someone here, you know, thinks that maybe he should get life without parole. And so, yeah, there was a moment where I thought they could say yes to that special issue number two.

[Ashley Merchant]

And you thought that they could say that. Did you believe if they said yes to the first one, the future dangerousness, that he basically was a future danger? And then if they found there was no mitigation, did you think it was automatically a death sentence sense?

[Natasha Malone]

I did not know that at the time.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah.

[Natasha Malone]

So.

[Ashley Merchant]

Because they don't explain it well.

[Natasha Malone]

No, no. And so it was kind of.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's why I was curious.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah, I did not know what that meant at first. And then the judge immediately followed it up with, well, you're sentenced to death, basically, like, right after it. And I was like, oh, this is it. So, yeah, that was kind of surprising.

[Ashley Merchant]

There's been a lot of challenges on that because the way that we're allowed to have the death penalty is you have to have these special circumstances. You have to make sure that this case is different from the next case. And so there's a lot of legal history about these special circumstances, aggravators versus mitigators, and whether or not they have to be unanimous or not unanimous. And there's a lot of controversy with Texas statute because the study saying, I looked this up when I saw the verdict. Two thirds of capital juries incorrectly believe that if they find future dangerousness, they're required to find death. They're required to find for death penalty. So they've done studies on that. And when I listened, I thought, that's going to. You know, I was curious what you thought, because I thought, this is confusing. It almost sounds like if you vote yes for the first issue and no for no mitigation, you have to find death. Death is the only option, and it's not. And you can still. What your. Your question is, can you still do life without parole? Yes. And you don't even have to identify. You can say that there's no mitigation. I just decided all of a sudden that I don't believe in the death penalty or. Or, you know, I have a moral opposition to it, or I just can't stomach it. You can still vote lwop. You don't have to have an actual reason. And so there's a lot, there's a lot of litigation about that. That's why I was curious and just

[Dave Aronberg]

for the audience, LWOP is life without parole. Now, as far as the mitigators see, prosecutors have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in Florida and other states that at least one statutory aggravator applies. For example, was the killing cold, calculated and premeditated? That's a statutory aggravator. There's a list. But when it comes to mitigators, there is no list. A defense lawyer can use anything. It's an advantage for the defense. Like, for example, in the case of the 19 year old who slaughtered 17 innocents at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, the defense lawyer said, well, his mother smoked while he was in the womb. I mean, come on. But that may have persuaded someone. You can say anything. Whereas prosecutors have to stick to the list in the law.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Merchant]

And any of those reasons could be grounds for the, for the jury.

[Natasha Malone]

Yeah. And they did that. They did that in this trial with Tanner Horner. They had expert, the defense called expert after expert psychologist, you know, child behavioralist, you know, you name it, they called them. And apparently it cost the, you know, wise county taxpayer myself a lot of money to have these, these witnesses. And man, the D.A. he just killed their whole entire defense list with one. One movement. He took out like this huge storage tub and filled it with all of the research from the defenses witnesses. He like printed them all out and filled this tub full of papers. And he said, I've gone through all of these documents and you know what I can't find in there? I can't find. I'm sorry, I can't find an apology. It's not there.

[Dave Aronberg]

Oh, wow.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, he needed to allocate, he needed to address the jury. Needed.

[Dave Aronberg]

Is that because he didn't want to lose his chance on appeal or because he's autistic and doesn't understand the, the need to apologize? Or maybe he just wasn't apologetic. What's the reason why he didn't apologize?

[Ashley Merchant]

I mean, my best guess is that they figured out that he was going to be awful in the stand and it wasn't going to help because otherwise you're going to put him up and you're going to have him apologize. There must have been something that just, just he wasn't capable of showing remorse. I mean, that's the only reason. Otherwise he admitted to guilt. He pled guilty. Like, why would he not get up there? I mean, obviously he can be cross examined, you know, and that would have been brutal. But all you. All he needs to do is every time he's cross examined, apologize, cry, say he's sorry, show actual, real remorse. I mean, that would have saved his life potentially.

[Dave Aronberg]

But he could have apologized, though. He could have apologized in the penalty phase, right? Yeah. Without affecting the guilt verdict. So I don't know, maybe another. Maybe that was an error from the lawyers, but maybe the lawyer didn't really care. I mean, I'm sure he did what he had to do, but the fact he didn't stand next to him tells you something.

[Ashley Merchant]

It does tell you something. Well, we want to end with Athena's actual uncle who got to speak to Tanner at the sentencing. And it's really powerful. If we could play Sapphoff War, There

[Athena's Uncle]

are no words that truly capture the devastation that Tanner Horner caused us and our family. What he took from this world was not just a child. He took a wife, a future, and a piece of every single person who loved him. He took a granddaughter, a daughter, a niece, a cousin, and a friend. I think it was more than a headline. She was laughter, curiosity, kindness, and innocence. And she had dreams that she will never get to chance, birthdays that she will never celebrate in a life she never get to live because of his actions. Santa Horner, I want you to hear this directly. You do not just take a life. You destroy the family, and you will be judged. You will face the wrath of God. But I want you to know that you are nothing. You are a footnote in Athena story. Her name will forever be remembered. Her name will forever be celebrated, and everyone will forget you.

[Ashley Merchant]

That's powerful. Very powerful. Well, thank you, Natasha, for being here.

[Dave Aronberg]

Natasha, you did a great job. More time in front of the camera now. All right.

[Natasha Malone]

Less time behind the camera, maybe. Well, thank you, Dave and Ashley. Thank you so much for covering this trial. It really. It means a lot to me, you know, as a community member from where this happened, and I'm really, you know, I know the family did want the death penalty for Tanner, and so for that, I'm happy that the jury, you know, delivered the sentence that they delivered on Tuesday. And hopefully that is the beginning of closure for them. And thank you guys again for having me.

[Ashley Merchant]

Thanks for watching.

[Dave Aronberg]

Thank you, Natasha. Up next, your questions and our closing arguments. Stay tuned.

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[Ashley Merchant]

MK welcome back to the MK True Crime Show. It's almost time for our closing arguments, but first we have a question from listener Gemma. She asks I love the MK True Crime show. On the heels of the Tanner Horner death penalty verdict, I was wondering if any of the lawyers have had the experience where a client was given the death penalty. So I know Dave's history with the death penalty as a defense lawyer. Mine is. I mean as a prosecutor, mine's as a defense lawyer. So I'm curious, Dave, Dave, what's your experience with it?

[Dave Aronberg]

Well, Jim, I know that you asked about clients and defense lawyers, but as a prosecutor, your client is people. It's not the victim, but it's the people. And sometimes you have to make that decision to seek the death penalty and you listen to the families of the of the victim and that means a lot because if the families are opposed to the death penalty, you're less likely to seek it. But you have to consider the community in mind. And if you have someone who is a repeat offender, someone who committed multiple murders in cold blood, who were premeditated, then you're like, I think this guy deserves it. And you want to try to do equal justice as you can. You want to take similar cases and have the same approach. One quick anecdote about it. I remembered how serious this needed to be taken when I just started, just been elected state attorney, and I was in my first meeting. I had the meeting of my top prosecutors, all the homicide prosecutors, and the most veteran prosecutors of the office, because I wanted a committee to decide whether we would seek the death penalty. Ultimately, it's up to the jury to decide whether it's imposed. But I remember this one case where at the very beginning, it was like my first meeting, and we went through the memo and we decided. The committee decided 8 to 0 not to seek the death penalty. And so they looked to me and I said, okay, next. And then they kept looking at me. I was like, what? They said, it's your decision.

[Ashley Merchant]

No pressure.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yeah. I was like, whoa, that's a life or death decision. You. You rarely get a chance to make in life, and you got to make sure you get it right every time. And we're human, so we're infallible. And ultimately, it's not my final decision because it's the jury, but to seek it. And that's when it really hit me that it can be 8 to 0 opposing the death penalty in this case. But as state attorney, it's my call. The buck stops with me. And that's why I realized, wow, this is a very different job than being a state senator.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, that's. No, that's. That's a crazy experience. And that's just a lot for someone to have to put on their shoulders. And I think that's probably what the jury experiences as well, you know, when they have to make that decision. Definitely difficult. Well, unfortunately, I have a client on death row. I did not represent him at trial. I represented him on his direct appeal many, many, many years ago. He is very elderly now and suffers a lot of mental illness. So I'd be surprised if he's ever actually executed. I think he's most likely going to die in prison on death row. But it was an atrocious case, and I did the appeal. So I didn't get to argue to the jury, didn't get to do that. Got to argue as the Monday morning quarterback. But I actually have a case that was just death noticed. I think I have the Death notice. If our viewers are interested in what that actually looks like, it's a public document. But what Dave was just explaining about the district attorney's decision to decide whether or not to seek the death penalty. I have a case right now where a local district attorney in the Atlanta metro area did make that decision and sign the document and actually filed what's called a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. So that's ongoing. So hopefully I will not have another client there. But my husband actually did. My law partner, he did habeas work many years ago and had a client on a habeas, which, you know, just for our viewers, habeas is after the appeal, so it's way down the line. But that's. I'll save that for another day. But. So, Dave, we've got our closing arguments. I'm gonna let you go first.

[Dave Aronberg]

Yes. By the way, it says a lot about you as a criminal offense lawyer that you're death penalty qualified. Very few lawyers are. You want to make sure you get the best defense lawyer because it is like life or death. So kudos to you, Ashley.

[Ashley Merchant]

Thank you. They're not easy cases, as you know, as you were describing and I, I recognize they're not easy cases for either side. They're not easy cases for anybody. They're the worst of the worst for a reason.

[Dave Aronberg]

They are the worst of the worst. And it's also, you know, you think about the individual, but it's the victim's family. I mean, they have to relive this. If it's not imposed the possibly a probation that they could get out. Some states have life with parole and you have to keep coming back every so often to try to argue to strangers to keep this individual behind bars. Ugh, man, that to me is just continuing to victimize these families. Ashley. I'd like to wrap up this episode with a look at the case of Olivia Henderson. This is a 23 year old DoorDash driver who forgot that a food delivery isn't a license for a felony level photo shoot. You may have seen this online. This went viral. So she's a door jas driver who is making a delivery and she stood at a man's doorstep. She saw him in the nude inside his own home. And instead of walking away, she hit record on her phone. She didn't just invade his privacy, she broadcasted his most private parts of the entire Internet, wrapping it in a lie about being harassed to get those viral clicks. She backed it all up by filing a police report. Congrats OLIVIA, you got 30 million views for it. But here's the reality check. The man was passed out drunk on the couch inside his own home. The door was not open, and the only victim here was the guy in his own living room. Olivia is now facing two felony counts of unlawful surveillance. And frankly, she's getting exactly what she deserves. This isn't just about one bad delivery. It's a symptom of a content at any cost culture where people think that someone's dignity is just raw material for their TikTok feet. In a world where everyone wants to be the main character. Olivia Henderson just found out that sometimes the plot twist involves a pair of handcuffs. So please respect what the four walls of a home mean and what limited zone of privacy we still have left in this world. And for the love of everything, just deliver the sandwich and leave. That's my closing statement.

[Ashley Merchant]

Thank you, Dave. Yeah, we don't have a ton of privacy these days. Well, can we just talk for a little bit about how hard it is to be a mom of a high school senior in May? May is an awful month. It's graduation. Can we talk about that with everybody acting like we should all just be smiling through it? Because people keep saying, oh, you must be excited. Oh, you must be so proud. Of course I am. I'm proud. But I have a high school senior graduating, and I also feel like someone is quietly dismantling an entire chapter of my life a little tiny piece at a time. I think what hits moms especially hard is that graduation isn't just their transition. It really rearranges your identity. For 18 years, your life has been built around being immediately needed in a physical way. With rides, forms, snacks, late night doctor runs, CVS runs, emergency poster boards, field trip permission slips. And then suddenly, everybody expects you to be nothing but happy while you're walking through the house thinking, why is it so quiet? Why does it feel so different in here? And then there's a level of guilt that that's baked into it, because this is what we wanted. We raised them to leave. We raised them to become themselves, to not need permission slips, to not need us to make orthodontist appointments, to work on their own. So now you're grieving something you're also incredibly proud of. These are two completely opposite emotions sitting in the same exact place in your heart. And nobody warns you. That senior year dredges up your own memories, too. Your own unfinished stuff. Dreams you had at 18, regrets. Versions of yourself. Graduation turns parents into emotional time travelers against our will. Suddenly, A college orientation email can ruin your entire afternoon. And now you're sobbing in the grocery store next to the rotisserie chickens, trying to keep it together, hoping nobody sees you, wondering if it's really weird to put your glasses on your sunglasses. And meanwhile, the kids are mostly fine. They're excited, they're nervous, but they're really looking forward, like they should be, to the next stage, which somehow makes it harder because you're the one that's secretly mourning the little rituals that nobody notices. Hearing them come home after school, yelling, dinner, the pile of shoes by the door, driving together in silence, seeing the light on under their door a little bit too late at night, all of those things, those little things. That stuff, that's the stuff. Not the graduation cap. Not that, that. It's this loneliness in this stage that moms don't say out loud enough. Especially competent, high functioning moms everybody assumes are handling it very well. But meanwhile, we're crying in the Target over dorm bedding, we're wondering which mini fridge to buy our daughters to go into their dorm rooms, pretending like we're totally fine. Because sometimes the hardest part of parenting is actually succeeding at it. And that's the cruel joke. If you do it well, they leave. They leave. They're successful, they expand, they become more independent. They don't need you. They don't need you anymore. And you didn't fail. You actually succeeded. Some of these moments are beautiful. Some of them suck. Some of them are all of that all at the same time. But I just want to tell everyone out there going through graduation season, I'm there with you. And now excuse me while I go cry over a hello Kitty backpack back. Thank you all for joining us today. And thank you to our guest, Natasha. It was so awesome to have.

[Dave Aronberg]

She is a goat.

[Ashley Merchant]

Yeah, she is a goat. The goat. And Tasha and my co host, the other goat, Dave Aronberg. And thank you for joining us. I hope everyone has a great week.